Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Shift Your Perspective of What's Possible | Jimmy Chin

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Jimmy Chin, an Academy Award winning filmmaker, National Geographic photographer and professional mountain sports athlete.He has led or participated in cutting edge expeditions around the world for over 20 years.Jimmy has climbed and skied Mount Everest from the summit and made significant first ascents on all seven continents including the coveted first ascent of the Shark’s Fin on Mount Meru.For those of you unfamiliar with Meru, it’s the sacred five-peaked mountain of Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist cosmology and is considered to be the center of all the physical, metaphysical and spiritual universes.Jimmy’s photographs have graced numerous covers of National Geographic Magazine and the New York Times Magazine.He co-produces and co-directs with his wife Chai Vasarhelyi.Their film Meru won the Audience Award at the Sundance Film Festival in 2015 and was on the 2016 Oscar shortlist for Best Documentary Feature.Their latest documentary Free Solo, featuring Alex Honnold, won a BAFTA, seven primetime Emmys and the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature in 2019.If you haven’t seen it, it’s the first thing you should watch after you’re done listening to this podcast.Jimmy’s resume precedes itself… I’d been wanting to have this conversation for a long time and I can’t wait for you to learn from him.We talk about his unorthodox path to becoming a photographer and filmmaker, chasing dreams, and managing risk.We also discuss why he almost turned down making “Free Solo” which I think you’ll find captivating…_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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a film about Alex and his free soloing. In the process of kind of vetting the idea. My wife, Chai was like, you know what? I need to spend some time with him and get to know him. And in the time that she spent with him, you know, she spent two days with him and I was like, Hey, what'd you think of Alex? She's like, he's very, very interesting. And by the way, he told me that he's very very interesting and by the way he told me that he's gonna go free solo el cap isn't that great because chai isn't from the climbing world and he did not understand what that meant and she said that's a perfect like focal point for the film and i said, there's absolutely no way we can make that film. Introducing a camera

to a situation, no matter who you are, even if you're Alex Honnold, changes the situation. And when the margins of success, that is the difference between life and death, are so thin that the idea of the camera being there or the pressure of a production around what he was doing was even, even for him, if he barely felt it, but if that was the amount that it took for things to go bad, I was like, I don't want to carry that responsibility. And funny enough, we let the cat out of the bag at a meeting with Nat Geo. And before we could even say anything, they were like, we're going to find, we'll finance that film. And I was like, actually, I, I, I'm not going to make that film. okay welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast if this is your first i'm so

stoked for you because i am geeked i'm flat out geeked on who we have on today and by trade and training i am a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea about this podcast, about the Finding Mastery podcast, is to learn from people who are flat out switched on, who have committed their life efforts towards exploring the boundaries of their own potential, and in doing so, end up shifting what we understand the potential of others. And I'm more fascinated and more interested in those that have a deep understanding of self and a deep commitment to mastery of craft. And so that's what this conversation is about today.

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So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. This week's conversation is with a legend, Jimmy Chin.

And if you're not familiar with his work, I can't wait to introduce him to you. He's an Academy Award-winning filmmaker, national geographic photographer, and a professional mountain sport athlete. He climbed, summited, and then skied off of Mount Everest. And then on top of that, like that's cool, but that's just kind of where this story really begins. And he's made significant first ascents on all seven continents, including the coveted first ascent of the shark's fin on Mount Meru. And if you're not familiar with this mountain, the spine, Meru means spine. If you're not familiar with it, it's a sacred mountain.

It's in the Himalayas in India. And in particular, there's a peak called the shark's fin. And it looks just like a shark's fin. And it is a massive granite slab that has been untamed, an untamed muse, if you will, for some of the legends in the climbing world. And that's dating back to Mug Stumps, flat out legend, and his first attempt in 1986. And then with another, I don't know, 12 to 15 or so attempts, all of them falling short of summiting. This thing is radical. And so Jimmy documented it. And he documented his first attempt at summiting with two of his partners. And then in a radical turn of events, they ended up going back and waiting to see. You've got to see this documentary that he produced, Meru. You've got to see this. Seriously, you've got to see it.

Now, all that being said, his latest documentary is Free Solo featuring Alex Honnold. That won a BAFTA, seven primetime Emmys and the the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature in 2019. How about it? And if you're not familiar with Alex Honnold, literally, this is a documentary also you have to watch. And we interviewed Alex on the podcast. And so I encourage you to listen to that as well. And Jimmy's photographs have graced numerous covers of National Geographic and New York

Times, fill in the blanks. It's amazing. His resume precedes itself. And I've been wanting to have this conversation for a long time, and I can't wait to share his insights. And I literally hope that something becomes a bit brighter for you. And I hope that you face some truths about where you hold back in your life. And we're going to get into it about risk, about chasing dreams, about unconventional paths. We're going to get into all of that. Okay. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the flat out legend, Jimmy Chin. Jimmy, how are you? Great. How are you? Yeah, man. I've been looking forward to connecting with you for a long time

we had a great time surfing together and um i'll tell you man that was a highlight day wasn't it it was absolutely highlight day and thank you so much for having me on your show oh please yeah like one what you've done is remarkable and um i can't wait to roll up the sleeves and really understand how you work. And what I mean by that is like, how do you use your mind? And yeah, you find yourself into some precarious situations, I'm sure, you know, hanging off ledges. So we're going to roll up into that. All right. So let's start with this. Your reputation precedes this conversation. So as far as an introduction, I'd rather actually start at early life with you. And so what was it like growing up with your family? Well, both my parents were from China and they both experienced kind of the cultural revolution in China. So they both experienced some hardship going from China to Taiwan where they, you know, spent a good amount of their lives before they ended up going to graduate school in the states so just a little context uh and they met they actually met in the states um interestingly my

mom's side of the family was like a very progressive you my, my grandfather was a Western trained doctor and, and this is kind of funny, but my grandmother on my mom's side was an actress in Japanese cinema. And she spoke like three languages and was, you know, so she came from, she came from this very like progressive family. And then my father came from the south my mom came from the far north um north of beijing harbing and then my dad came from the far south and he was like the opposite spectrum like now that i have a better understanding of the world and and probably politically but also like a very kind of military background family. I don't think they would have ever gotten, you know, been a match in China, but because

they met in the States, you know, there's probably not that many other Chinese options in like the late 60s at a graduate school in the States. I think that really kind of, you know, shaped my upbringing because, and I see it in my day-to-day life, you know, just these two very different sides. Like there was, my mom was always very creatively minded. One, you know, I started playing the violin when I was three, was always, you know, doing arts and crafts and drawing and, and, you know, was thinking about music and all these things that she wanted me to be exposed to. My dad was very tough and, you know, had me studying martial arts from a very young age. It's the

first thing I really remembered doing with my dad was like learning how to punch correctly and like there's a lot of the ethos of the martial arts um kind of instilled in me so I started martial arts at a very young age and then I also swam competitively from a very young age through high school but and they were both very focused on my academics. One thread that was clear from both of them was, you know, they had very high expectations in everything that I did. So excellence was a big focus also academically. And, you know, that's what I remember. I remember going to a lot of swim meets, a lot of martial arts competitions, playing in the orchestra. It was very structured. But as I was growing up, I found skiing, which was kind of like my thing. And we had this teeny

little hill. You wouldn't think that, you know, growing up in Minnesota, there'd be much skiing, but you know, we grew up, I grew up in like a small university town in South central Minnesota. And my parents were librarians. But skiing is this thing that I found that was kind of my thing. And when I did well and everything else, I got to go skiing. Something else, though, having librarians as parents is I was fed a lot of books. And so I grew up reading a lot as well.

What was one of the main narratives? So it's excellence. I hear that. I hear exposure to much. I hear that there was some structure that you got to, if you did your job well as a student, that you got to go play on the mountain or the hill. And so what was some of the narratives that you're still caring for today? And the double click underneath of that is what are some of the narratives that you're trying to undo

even still today? There's both sides of it. What are some of the narratives that you're trying to undo even still today? Right. There's both sides of it. What are some of the ones that you're still carrying with you? And I mean that in an aspirational way. And then the other is like in a, in a more heavy way, like I'm still trying to undo some of that early stuff. Yeah. That's a very good way to approach this conversation because it leads into something else, um, you know, into my my 20s, which was a lot about undoing things. But I would say, especially now as a parent, you know, I have a daughter that's seven, Marina, and then my son, James, who's five. I pay attention to a lot of, you know, what I'm trying to instill in my children. But I would say that, you know, I think it was probably somewhat predictable to have immigrant parents who wanted to create the best life they could, this new life in a new country with their kids. So trying to give me every single opportunity they could and expose me to everything that they could think of

that would help, you know, develop me as a person. And, you know, that's something that I do with my children too. Like, I think it's great for them to have a lot of exposure. And just to give that whole thing a context too is you know i'm i'm married to chai vasarely and she's born and raised in manhattan and here i am living in jackson wyoming uh i i can't help but think i'm like wow i couldn't have picked someone that was like further from my world than than chai and so there is like some sort of kind of parallel with with my parents.

But what it means is that we, we expose the kids to a lot of different things, you know, Chai, it's like the New York ballet and the mat and you know and on my side you know they're surrounded by you know we split our time between Jackson and New York you know they're surrounded by mountains and outdoors and pro skiers and pro snowboarders and pro surfers are like you know circling our house all the time um but I do really appreciate having like a big world presented to me. And, you know, I think that opened up my imagination to a lot of different worlds I could occupy. But ironically, when I was growing up, my parents were drilling into me that, you

know, you could be a doctor or a lawyer or go into finance, you know, and I literally thought there were three jobs in the world for a while, you know, like as much as they were. And I get it, you know, like, and this is a different time now too. It was certainly much more structured and traditional career paths than there is now but um i didn't quite answer your question uh because you're asking what are you holding on to that you're trying to undo from early age and what are you using that is propelling you forward in life yeah i mean i think that that exposure to a lot of different things is something that i'm i still appreciate uh but discipline was a big one. Like I understood from an early age to excel at anything, it required a lot of discipline and a lot of self-motivation. And if you really, really wanted

to excel, it took a lot of focus and almost obsession to a certain degree. Like you really had to go dig deep and, you know, person persevere. Um, and I think one of the hard things about it was it instilled a certain sense of, um, fear of failure. And that is something that I've had to work on to undo, you know, where it's like, I've learned over the years, certainly now that, you know, failure in a lot of ways is like the greatest way to progress, know like you can't be afraid to fail like you want to fail fast and early and and learn and um and embrace that potential and uh you know i'm a perfectionist so i i often feel that pull of conflict where i'm like i don't know if i want to go that far because, you know, I might fail, but then, you know, I've,

I've taken some fairly extraordinary risks in my life and many of them have paid off for me. So it's been reinforced to undo that fear of failure that, you know, kind of, I was set up for in a way. Yeah. It sounds like that early structure and high need for achievement. And I might add in there, the perfectionistic pieces that they were hinting at. Um, but also it sounded like the message was to be the best. And I'm wondering if you're still working to be the best or your best as just a kind of framework position. I don't, there's no right and wrong. There's costs, there's costs on both of them. There's costs. And if you're trying to be your best and you don't have a reference point about what is possible period, then it becomes this really kind of

garage band naive, listen to me ripping. And then you open up the garage door and then you see U2s across the street. You know, in the other garage, you're like, oh. So until that point, it's kind of a naive game, right? Like, oh, that's what you can do with the drums. Yeah. So what are you trying to sort out? The best or your best?

Well, my best. And I now like, I can look back to kind of continue the narrative from after I, you know, went to college, essentially, and I came out of school, and there was like a huge expectation that I was gonna follow a lot of pressure. You know, my parents were librarians. They weren't like, you know, extraordinarily wealthy, but they had really taken their life savings and put it into my education and my sister's education. So there was that kind of pressure of like, what are you going to do with yourself now that we've spent our life savings putting school? Wow. That's a big deal. Yeah. And, and I decided I, you know, I told my parents, I was like, look, I know this is what you want from me, but I had discovered climbing early on in college and I was just completely enraptured with that. I idea, the lifestyle in a lot of ways,

it coalesced all of these skills that i had gotten through different things like swimming and like the training for swimming and endurance and pace and all those things and martial arts just like you know physical awareness and those kind of things and then add this element of risk and you know so know, so I was, I, I found this thing that I was deeply passionate about. And I told my parents, I was like, Hey, look, I, I'm just going to take a year off and I'm going to climb and ski full-time and I'm going to get it out of my system. And then I'm going to focus on my career. And they're of course, you know, mortified of this idea. But I went and did it and that turned into two years and then it turned into three. And then, you know, seven years later,

I'm like 28 and I'm still living in the back of a little Subaru hatchback living in Yosemite skiing skiing in the ski seasons, doing odd jobs, waiting tables. In Jackson, I was like shoveling roofs, like of mansions, you know, because they needed rope work. And like, I was just valet parking. I was doing anything to kind of like keep the dream alive. And Jimmy, what was the dream? I just wanted to climb and ski and be in the mountains. And the part of the story that I think is important to note here is to answer your question is I remember distinctly thinking is the end of that first year. I thought I can't not climb.

Like I'm going to go back for another season in Yosemite. And I put it on myself and I was like, if I'm going to do that, I'm going to be the best possible climber I can be. And I remember that I can be part is different than I'm going to be the best climber in the world. It was more like, I'm going to see how far I can take this. And I had a little, like an innate confidence in the fact that like, I knew what I was capable of if I really focused. Cause I knew, I understood what that meant. That meant training and just devoting everything to it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Jimmy, I think that this is really important

because it's so trite to add, to say, you know, I'm trying to be my best and the best I can be. Like, I think you and I syncopate there completely, but when that is, I don't want to say obsession because you use it earlier, but when that is a, um, a reservoir that runs really deep and runs through everything that you're doing, especially the thing that feeds you the most, it becomes this widening of an aperture to use your lens framework, widening of an aperture to see how far you can actually go into it. Because as soon as you start to have frameworks that constrict, you know, and create pressure in an unhealthy, consistent way, I think we run into real problems. And I'm betting that if it wasn't climbing,

that happened to naturally feed you. But I want to figure out how I can be the best I can be at this. And you fill in the blank, whether it's photography or it's climbing or it's skiing, maybe it's all three, that that was the part of the fuel, let alone the feeling that you got when you were ripping down a mountain or captured something beautiful. And wave me off if I'm not right on this. No, no, it set the frame for really everything that I did. So whether that

was photography and then eventually filmmaking, these were also things that I had no idea about. Like I didn't grow up in a family where climbing or photography or filmmaking were, my mom used to say, of course, we're worried about you. There's no word in Chinese for like what you're doing. There's no career in Chinese or a word for it, for what you're doing. Like these were things that I had discovered.

And I never took a photography class and I never took a film making class. You know, these were things that I discovered and that I was just like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm passionate about. I'm going to figure it out. And I'm going to see out of almost pure curiosity, like how far can I go with it? You know? And I would look around and I'd be like, okay, well, this is what other people are doing. Like, I think I could do that better by doing this,

you know, like it, so it was very, it did open the aperture and, and really nothing, you know, kind of phased or intimidated me in that sense, because once I started having kind of this, um, uh, I guess you'd say reinforcing of like, oh, you know, I'd have these breakthroughs all the time. I'd be like, okay, I want to climb El Cap in a day, you know, and then I would focus on it and then I'd do it and I'd be like, oh, that seemed absolutely absurd a month ago, you know, and but by applying myself in these ways, you can figure it out and you can do it. And then, you know, that kind of evolved. And I'm just talking about the climbing side. So I was like, OK, well, now I'm climbing El Cap in a day. can figure it out and you can do it and then you know that kind of evolved and i'm just talking about the climbing side so i was like okay well now i'm climbing el cap in a day i want to climb

a bunch of routes uh but then i started thinking but this is just yosemite like this is only now a stepping stone because really the next big level is taking what I learned here into the Karakoram, like high altitude Alpine big walls, like that's, that's the pinnacle. I wonder what it takes to get there, you know, and I put together my first expedition to the Karakoram when I was, I think, 23. And I had no idea how to put together an expedition, you know, like a really remote, logistically complex place. And I just went and figured it out. But it was just from this, like, in some ways, it was like a curiosity. I kept being like, wow, that worked. Like, I wonder how far I can go with this, you know so if we pull on that thread just a bit what were you trying what were you chasing was it the bigger the better was you're chasing testing your capabilities were you chasing adrenaline i don't get that from you no i was i was i was mainly curious about I mean I guess in in college I studied international relations

and I studied you know comparative religion I was really kind of at some point early on in college I was really like looking at Eastern philosophy, but the base idea I came out of it with, and I don't know exactly how this formed, but I mean, there was a sense of urgency for me in terms of life. And like, I, I didn't necessarily use the words I'm about to say when I thought about it but it's just that idea that like time is our only true currency and you're only spending it like you don't get it back

and and so if you want to look even beyond like this idea of I wanted to discover what my capabilities are. More of it is related to this idea that life is short. And I want to make the most of it. I want to experience the most out of this life. And for me, that meant seeing how far I could go. I don't want to be callous when I ask you this. So I'm going to couch it by saying that. But what you do comes with great physical risk. It can.

And actually we should sharpen it by saying what you do actually has consequence that could end your life or loved ones. Yeah. And so is um, so is, is this, is this accurate that it is a more painful life to live a life, not knowing than it is to live a life at the edge in the amphitheaters that you want doing what you want, but maybe dying earlier than the safe, um, route. Yeah. I mean, I think I do believe, I don't know how to exactly answer that in the, in those words, but

I, there's that part of me that is like, I can't not do this. You know, I, it's, it's a calling, as some people would say, that calling has evolved. Some of it is still the same at the heart. you know part of the this my life experience is also um on a lot of levels you know on the outside looks like it's all about like this physical risk but you know the craft of a lot of what i do is around managing risk, like those calculations, those decisions, the team you surround yourself with. And if you really look at my work, it's, it's like managing risk, like how accurately can you assess risk? How accurately can you calculate it that's a huge part of the process outside of like you know what is being seen superficially you know it's like oh he's climbing a mountain and it's like really hard and there's ice and there's all this stuff and he's got to be physically strong and technically capable like there are all those aspects but there, there's this other aspect for me that is also

deeply satisfying is like, you're not just going into these things without chasing adrenaline, you know? There's, there's a, there's a creative aspect to it outside of like the film and photography. That's also like creative problem solving and like understanding, you know, the risks, managing them, assessing them, building this like situational awareness that constantly expands the more experience you have and being able to apply all these different things and ideas to be able to do this in a way that hopefully doesn't end up with you um dying you know uh when those stakes get really high it becomes very interesting and there's a lot of self-reflection that's also involved with it uh so these these kind of experiences feel very deep for me because they're,

they're so all encompassing. You choose your words very deliberately. And I don't get a sense that you're editing for anyone else other than for the art of precision. But I want to just ask, how is your mind working even in this conversation? What are you doing quietly that nobody else is aware of? I'm trying to be accurate. And is that an intellectual exercise or is it a heartfelt exercise? It's somewhere in between those two. Well, it's probably both. A lot of the stories that I tell in the work that I do, and this is, this has been a discovery and an evolution of thought for me because when I originally started photographing the people around me, you know, they were really inspiring. And some of it hasn't evolved. Some of it is actually still the exact same. But I always found, I had my own discoveries about these experiences and the people around me. There's always so many misperceptions or these

ideas around some of these stories that I felt weren't true or accurate and but people still found them really interesting potentially but I knew underneath it I was like if they really understood then it becomes interesting like really interesting then it becomes really inspiring like the photo of this person climbing is like beautiful and inspiring. And, you know, maybe we'll take somebody out of wherever they are and bring them into this moment. But when you start to dig into these stories, there's so much depth and, and it can change people's perspectives. And I enjoy doing that, you know,

and I like to do that because it brings more depth to people's understanding of like the human condition, you know. So is it fair to say, even in this conversation, but if you mapped it into life in general one of the main themes that you're working on is the truthfulness the honesty of

the accuracy of an experience does that sound close yeah especially obviously in in non-fiction filmmaking you know um yeah yeah for sure it's something that I find these real life stories deeply inspired some of the motivation is because I'm really inspired you know and it's as if like the urge to share that because I'm excited about it is something that drives a lot of, of what I do. And, you know, if you look at kind of my body of work, photography or filmmaking, you know, there's a common theme about like the human potential and the human spirit and you know they're they're they're what i try to bring are like universal ideas that people can relate to but in the experiences in the places and the people that i'm with those might on the outside seem very unrelatable because they're so skilled

and they're right on the edge yeah and it's so far from most people's reality but to be able to like connect in a way to that um that for me is fun right now what do you wish people knew based on your life experiences and sometimes it's really hard to get all of your good stuff out, right? But if right now, thin slice, moment in time, what do you wish people knew about potential, about capability, about life? I mean, I feel like I'm so fortunate on a lot of levels because of the mentors in my life and the people that I have been able to spend time with. I've been able to work with many of the great adventurers,

explorers, climbers, snowboarders, skiers, you know, of my generation. And on some levels, it's kind of all the same. Like, these are people who don't see boundaries, or if they see boundaries, they're just like, like, well, that's a great place marker, I'm just going to go right through it. And I'm constantly inspired by the people I get to work with. And I think what I'm really saying is like the human potential is limitless, you know, in a way. It truly is, you know, whether that's in music or design or whatever it is, like it, I've seen it time and time again, where

attitude and vision and well simply hard work perseverance hard work termination all those things you can I mean I've seen the impossible achieved over and over and over again you know not everything we got to make a documentary about in free solo you know but day-to-day things where you know someone will do an impossible trick on a snowboard that nobody's ever done before. Ski a line that nobody's ever done before, you know, had the vision and the right attitude to achieve the impossible. And I think history has many examples of that, but that's what I would say. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What does right attitude mean to you?

It's a very Buddhist thing to say. Are you Buddhist? Uh, I did study a lot of Buddhism and there's certainly like a lot of philosophy, um, ideas within, within Buddhism that, you know, I apply in my own life. And, and I, and I think attitude is one word. I mean, it's how people look at life, it's perspective, how they choose to see the world. It could be really, really, you know, a lot of people can only see limits and challenges and impossibility. And then some people are just brush those aside and they're like, no, this is how I see it, you know, and the bigger and broader they can think uh you know they it's this exploration and i and i always think about this idea of the word explorers of people like exploring new territory or like a physical landscape but like explorers of people who are like exploring you know the boundaries of the human potential and their own potential.

And so that attitude, I mean, means a lot of things. That's awesome. I think when I hear you say exploring potential as opposed to the traditional exploring a frontier, I do think the most exciting frontier is the one that is yet to be explored. And that for me is the internal stuff. And so exploring that, I mean, I'm in company with people that have been philosophers for thousands of years saying, yeah, no kidding, dude, but it's so complicated and it's so beautiful. It's so complicated. And what I love about it is that, um, right now is

a really exciting time for psychology. You know, we've got folks like yourself, uh, like some of your, your climbing partners, um, Alex and all being one of them saying, yeah, what happens between my, my ears? Like it matters, you know, and yeah, a lot. And so, and then we've got traditional stick and ball athletes. We've got people across the planet right now, recognizing the importance of the inner life and the skills that support a beautiful inner life. Even when the external world around us is shifting sand underneath our feet. And it feels like it's really hard to be grounded in any kind of way. If you've got the right internal structure and skill set and ability to be strong and flexible at the same skills that you are, you hang your hat on? What are some of the ones for you that you're like, listen, thank goodness. And I had to learn, maybe you could tell a story

about how you had to learn it. Maybe most of us have to learn things kind of the hard way. Mental skills. I mean, it is, I totally understand what you're saying. I think, and this is something that I've become more aware of, and this has probably evolved over years and years, but there's also pieces of it. One, I think is intentionality, like having the vision and the idea and being willing to put it into the ether as a possibility. Does that mean saying it to somebody else? It can be, or it can be writing it down. Okay. I started noticing at one point, like I would write something in my journal and be like, I, this is where I want to be. And then it would happen.

And so then I started purposely writing stuff in the journal and being like, but it was just that idea of like, Oh yeah, I'm, I have, you kind of have to identify where you're going in a way, but there's that intention behind it. And then there's the actual belief of what that intention can become. I think that that's something I do all the time. It creates a certain, not confidence or overconfidence, but it does

allow me to try things that seem really far out there. And I see that with, with a lot of the athletes I work with, you see that with great entrepreneurs or great musicians you know in a lot of different genres and worlds the other part is just uh and this might be paradoxical in in the way that but you can't also be attached to the outcome a because you never know where like that intentionality will lead you because it could lead you totally in a different place that's still as extraordinary more extraordinary than where you plan to go but um you have to love the process like it and and

that's something else that i noticed like once you really embrace the process without like being attached to this this outcome and you and you drive into being in that moment and like it and sorry to use a like a terrible climbing metaphor but it is it's like every single step matters or you can't get to the top you know it's like and and so the focus although the intention needs to be placed uh and it's important to have i think a broader view of of you're going, but you also have to bring it back and just be like, you know, in the moment and, and really focused on the process and hopefully love the process, you know, no matter how hard it is like that hardship or the suffering or like,

it's all part of, you know, where you're going. And there's always, you know, something to be learned. When something matters to you, you'll do whatever it takes. And that's true for a loved one. That's true for an idea. It's true for a life that you want to live. If it matters, you will do what it takes. And people ask me all the time, like about sacrifice.

I said, I don't know what you mean. Like, I really don't understand the concept. And maybe it's because, I don't know, I haven't had enough suffering. You know, there's lots of ways that somebody could answer that for me. But really, my approach, my attitude toward it is that, no, I'm making choices. And these are choices that ladder up to my life purpose. And what I think is possible, if I really applied myself with the right people in my community to help, that, yeah, okay, maybe I didn't go to that party, or I didn't go to this thing, or I missed that thing over there.

But it's like, hold on, I'm making some choices. I could go to those things if those mattered more and this is where I get caught in my loop about you know selfishness and because I've got um people my family I love them and sometimes I'm spending and I think that you you'll echo this like some sometimes I'm out on the frontier and it's like, that is hard for me, dude. I don't know how you do it, but that's hard for me. It's one of the great challenges right now for me as a parent. How are you wrestling with it? I mean, I think what you were talking about with choices and how you,

you've been thinking about it, that's actually something that I have been thinking about quite a bit as well in terms of, you know, we, there's the choices we make in our day to day and what could be conceived of as sacrifices or not sacrifices and fear of missing out and all that stuff. But that in like the the choices of like how we even decide to look at this is also another choice you know yeah um in some ways i think it's very empowering to recognize that because a lot of people become victims to themselves you know if they don't

make the choice to look at it like you just discussed like oh what was me why is my life like this or i missed that party i'm just gonna dwell on it or i missed seeing this thing because i made another choice like um but just knowing you know you are in control of your choices you are in control of how you deal with the situation um you're in control of you know how you feel. I'm saying that knowing very well that I don't feel like that all the time. I understand that too. I wish I functioned in a world where I was always omniscient and like understood, like shot right to the cosmos. You're done. Yeah. Like total awareness of self, but you know, it's hard, you know, like it's, it's, it's, I, you know, nobody ever really explained to me how much guilt was involved in being a parent. It's like, it's like a constant

and I have to like, you know, I have to catch myself and say, okay, these are the decisions you're making and why, you know, and I think that that those check-ins are important and that self-reflection is important. A lot of that happens for me when I'm out in the mountains and when I'm doing something that I love and it opens up the space for me to kind of have that conversation with myself. Okay. What is that conversation like? You know, why? Why? Why are you making these decisions? Let's examine how you're approaching this issue or problem. One thing I think is really useful is being conscious of the story that you're telling yourself.

And it's like one of the great challenges of like being objective and taking, having that awareness to self-examineamine that's not about you know criticizing yourself or like judging yourself it's like actually having the awareness to kind of look at you know why you're doing things and the choices that you're making. Is your discovery process mostly an awareness of how you're speaking to yourself about yourself and other things, or is it mostly written or is it talking out loud so you can with others, so you can hear how you're formulating ideas or all three that those are the three big ones for me. Writing, conversations with wise people, and then meditating. Yes. Writing has not been one. I think that most of it is either through meditation or a form of whatever I...

Mindfulness. Yeah, whatever that might be. whatever i mindfulness yeah whatever yeah mindfulness um someone once told me uh you know the awareness of the awareness that's it when you're having the awareness of like this other awareness you know and and oftentimes that awareness is like the stories that are happening to be able to like look at it from up here and be like, Oh, look at that, you know, I mean, it's so much of what, you know, not well, that's some of what meditation is about, right? Like to be able to, to kind of look into that. Do you what does your practice look like? Is it like, I meditate when I'm climbing, I meditate when i'm setting up my gear or is that do you sit on a pillow or a side of a cliff and meditate like how what does that practice look like all of the above is cool too i don't know i mean i have done you know

sitting meditation my discipline for that has been relaxing i i almost in any sort of probably meditation guru would be like bad or maybe not bad because they wouldn't use that word but it's it's that like i i found certain aspects of it that i really appreciated that i i felt like i could tap into so i would be like okay this is a good moment to like get into that place let's let's take a look around here you know um sometimes it won't happen for a while and I it'll happen and I'll be like why have I not been doing this like why have I not been having this conversation with myself or like looking in in the closet or whatever you want to call it but for the longest time and this is probably why

i ended up doing what i did like i couldn't find that place until like i until i was in like a high stakes situation and survived something and that's maybe part of i guess you could call it the high. It's not one of those like acute adrenaline moments, but it's like after an expedition or where you just pushed so far and survived something that was like, this was so challenging. That's when I feel whole and that's when I just live in that space for a while where's the most spiritual place that you've been a physical space or yeah physical because you've seen some places now yeah

and and spiritual you know obviously can mean a lot of different things you know where i i can say like the one time i really had a truly out of body experience was being caught in this pretty big avalanche. Not that far away from me out here in the Tetons. And the moment right after where I remember thinking, well, there was a lot that's kind of tied into that but in what was happening while i was in the avalanche but like in the moment after just feeling like all the disorganized priorities in my mind just slotted into place it was just like you know um i don't know if that's exactly spiritual uh i've i've had you know moments in the mountains where i was like i was overwhelmed with with emotion of the moment and the beauty of a moment um um you know certainly most recently probably on this climb called olivatana and i was climbing

with my climbing partner conrad and it was actually the first expedition where it was just him and i and we've been climbing together now for 15 years and uh this this mountain was you know i consider one of the greatest climbs I've ever done, if not the greatest, because we've been climbing together so long. We hardly even talked on this climb and it was a very difficult climb because we were just on the, so such a, like we would look at each other and we wouldn't have to say it, you know. And there was a couple moments on that where we were sitting after a really long day and it kind of felt like we were on drugs. You know, we were just like, whoa, this is like, this is big and expansive.

And it's also like sharing a moment like that is also just, it's extraordinary. It's one thing to have it on your own, but then to share it with someone is also deeply meaningful. In a weird way, you shared a moment with and made popular what free-souling is you know like you really alex didn't need any help alex and all didn't need any help he didn't need an introduction but you filmed that in a way that changed people i'm i know you've heard this plenty of times but I hear it second hand just because I work with some adventure athletes and this is what I hear Mike did you see and I was like yeah and I cried

I couldn't put it down I can't believe he went for that jump and oh my god how about his relationship and like it was like I think you guys told the truth. But what I want to know from you is, so congratulations, you know, like, okay, you know, big time. But what I want to know is I want to go to the morning of, it was like early morning of when it was go time. There's two moments I'm really curious about for you. The morning of when it's go time and the time of whatever it was when he asked you to be part of it. So let's go the morning.

Let's actually start in reverse order and start in chronological. Okay. Let's start chronologically and go when he first said to you, hey, I want to do this thing. What do you think? We had just finished a pretty successful run with Meru. There's a lot of people interested in what our next film was. By the way, Jimmy, if folks haven't seen Meru, got to check that out too. Okay. Nice work. Okay. Way to get it in there.

I was going to get it in there with you too. I didn't mean to, but yeah, sure. Yeah, it's good. You work. Okay. Way to get it in there. I was going to get it in there with you too. I didn't mean to, but yeah, sure. Yeah, it's good. You should see it. You like Fritola, you know what I mean? Maybe. Yeah. No, no. Okay. Well, I won't even say that, but. Wait, no. Dahl back now? Well, I was just saying Meru for us is very personal.

Obviously it tells a bit of my story to it too but that was the first film chai and i made together so there's like a you know it's not you you don't love one child more than the other one but that was our kind of our first job there you go yeah uh you know that that was a special film still is a special film for us and for me but I had pitched a bunch of ideas in the back of my mind I had always thought Alex is a very interesting character and Alex among all of these people I have worked with the greats he had he was like one level up like and i always say this like among alex's peer group of like the best the best i think it's safe to say even they feel like he's an anomaly in a peer group of anomalies you know like he i was witnessing things that he was doing that were, even for someone who's very open-minded and seen a lot, was boggling my mind.

Like there were things that were like kind of incomprehensible. So I let it slip at the end of this one meeting. And people have been kind of like, yeah, it's okay. and then it was immediately like, Oh, that's the film. Oh, you're going to, you're going to film. You're going to film Alex. Free soloing. It was just a portrait biopic of. Oh, it wasn't, it wasn't a doc at that point.

No, it was going to be a doc but it was just going to be about alex so this is probably more information than you know but uh i was really reluctant because i was like i don't want to make a film about alex free soloing it's like extraordinarily dangerous and of course it's like really stressful that will be like horribly stressful i don't want to deal with that because wait hold on play that out because i think you and i are shorthanding a lot one is this is somebody you know you care about um and he's extraordinary and you filming him or presenting him with an idea to free solo something where there's i don't know whatever percentage chance but there's a there's a there's always a chance yeah and but this one

seems amplified well the thing is is i didn't know he was going to free solo al cap it was just pitched as like a story, a film about Alex and his free soloing. Okay. There you go. In the process of kind of vetting the idea, my wife, Chai was like, you know what? I need to spend some time with him and get to know him. And in the time that she spent with him, you know, she spent two days with him and i was like hey what do you think of alex she's like he's very very interesting and by the way he told me that he's gonna go free solo el cap isn't that great because chai isn't from the climbing world oh my god yeah he didn't understand what that meant and she said that's a, like focal point for the film. And I just said, there's absolutely no way we can make that film.

And the reason why is I didn't even know if it was ethically okay, because, and Alex is wired in a way where external pressure he's able to like kind of you know it evaporates around him and yeah it's all you know external pressure um in a way that i've never seen with anybody else either um but still like introducing a camera to a situation no matter who you are even if you're alex harnold changes the situation and when the margins of success that is the difference between life and death are so thin that the idea of the camera being there or the pressure of a production around what he was doing was even even for him if he barely felt it but if that was the amount that it took for things to go bad i was like i don't want to carry that responsibility and funny enough

we let the cat out of the bag at a meeting with Nat Geo and before we could even say anything they were like we're gonna find we'll finance that film and I was like actually I I I'm not gonna make that film and I turned it down like a fully financed film for six months and was like not gonna do it and it was only after a conversation i had with john cracker who's a good friend and mentor of mine someone i really trust in terms of these kinds of decisions because he obviously has a very um a mind for it and like any good mentor he just said to me he didn't give me an answer he asked asked me three questions. He said, well, is he going to do it anyways? And I said, yeah. And he said,

is there someone else do you think that would be, you know, better at telling the story or not just better telling the story, but like in a good position, better position to tell the story. And I was like, no, I mean, I took Alex on his first international expedition. You know, I'd been working with him and climbing with him for 10 years. I knew him well. And then his last question was, well, do you trust him? And I said, I thought about for a minute, but I was like, I do. And that's, that's what allowed me to make the film is that I did trust Alex.

And I did trust that he would make the right decisions. He wouldn't go for the glory of the film. Like if he didn't feel like it was going to happen, sure as hell wasn't going to do it for the camera. You know, that right there is a big deal because the amount of pressure, one of the projects, I don't know if you and I talked about it at all before, but one of the projects I worked on, it was keeping me up at night.

You know, I said yes. And I answered those three questions from somebody else. It was literally those questions. And they were, it was two those questions yeah and they were it was two people that asked me in two different times and one of the questions was um it was a statement one by the athlete and this statement was i'm doing it anyway dude yeah i'll be safer if you're involved that was one that was like oh jesus you know that that's that's heavy and then the second was um and this is a soul-searching question is do you trust that he will make the right choice and the choice is money you called it glory but when there's millions of dollars on the line

expecting you to take a step whatever that step is for alex may was a grab or a leap yeah and if you're not clear because you don't want to let people down you don't want to look bad you don't want to be a chump you don't fill in the blanks whatever whatever whatever man that's not a clear mind no and so a very clear mind and so how did so okay you got through those three and you're like yes yes yes and then i didn't i didn't sleep well during the process like did you sleep well you know i there wasn't a day on two and a half years of production where I didn't wake up thinking about the worst case scenario. Okay. Did that mean that on different days, it was much deeper stress than others, but over time,

you know, it was a process. And one of the things that I told the team early on that we reiterated over and over was that the only way we can think about this film is that the needs of this film will never be above Alex's needs. This is, you know, we couldn't even think that it doesn't matter if you spent five days rigging and carried a 60 pound load and went up and down the ropes to get the shot. Like, um, and if he decides not to go up that day and you've done all that work, it's like no big deal. Like it's,

it's always about Alex and what he's trying to do. Because if you come at it with any other attitude, if something goes wrong, it's just going to, it's, it's different. Even though the actions are all the same and we always we always live by that but that's why my team was built up of professional climbers you know they understood exactly what i was talking about and how to minimize their presence and any sense of that pressure that like oh you need you need to do this, you know, like, some of us didn't even want him to do it, you know. But it became about supporting Alex to

achieve his dream. And that wasn't something I had to tell them. was just the the main cinematographer mikey schaefer long time yosemite guy like has been climbing for years and years there knows alex same with shane lampe they've climbed together for years and years like this was it was like a team effort to support him achieving his dream and really um it was about that it was about alex achieving his dream if we're gonna if we make a great film great but that's like totally secondary at this point you know is your is your philosophy for when you film is to be the hand that leaves no trace you know what's the zen cone the hand that leaves the pawn without a trace is that what you're trying to do i mean in a perfect world and it's not a perfect world

sure okay i mean there are some scenes that are somewhat constructed you know it's like um or at least not constructed but we're like like, oh, if you're going to do that, can we hold for this one day for you to do that? Because then we'll be better prepared to film it. But like, you know, a lot of the scenes, though, in the film that make it and that's why you shoot 800 hours with 800 hours of film and it gets whittled down to 90 minutes you have to film that much especially the verite like the in the moment filming to get these little moments of gold so like we're filming all the time all day every day in his van but that moment there's a moment when he's with sonny and he's thinking about free soloing el cap the next day and he hasn't told her and she said well who are you climbing with tomorrow oh i don't know

peter no and in that moment you see in her face that she's discovering in that moment that he is thinking about free soloidary cap like in those moments yes we're trying to be the hand that you know leaves the pond without any ripples you know it's like verite filming is the a lot like also photojournalism like deep photojournalism, like deep photojournalism, where you are there present for so long that you disappear. And best truly honest, authentic moments come from, you know, our Verite DP, Claire Popkin disappearing and capturing that moment and capturing it beautifully. So in that sense, yes,

that's kind of like the ideal scenario where scenario where you're you're you're you're now gone and life is unfolding in front of you and you happen to capture it so that moment when he says it's on how do you how do you ready yourself for that or was you just like it was in flight let's go let's let's catch up because there was a moment where he just kind of went no it's a funny story because we knew it was coming um well we thought it was coming twice like there's that time when he goes and attempts it he turns around in a lot of ways that was an incredible dry run because we understood what it felt like for you yes and when something like that happens and you get to like because he didn't do it you get to come back and like debrief it in your mind and with your team it's like all the different

things that i hadn't thought about became very clear i was like okay if he goes for it this is this is how we're going to do it just logistically and that kind of thing but um he comes back the next year we i mean he is now in like east mode i mean just even like looking at him physically, you're like, this is, you know, he is, he's on and Sonny left. Cause we, he kind of knew that it might be sometime this week, upcoming week, we're hanging out, um, at a friend's place and he's stretching and I'm stretching and I kind of knew it was soon but it was five o'clock at night in the evening and I was like well he's not going for tomorrow because it's five o'clock and he hasn't said anything and one of the rules is that we were

never ever allowed to ask when do you go yeah cool too much so that was a rule and so i'm stretching i'm like it's five o'clock so i look over at my dp and i'm like hey let's go climbing tomorrow and alex perks up and he's like wait and i'm like yeah and he's like i'm thinking about doing some scrambling tomorrow he calls it scrambling is like when you're climbing on like you know low angle rocks like he calls free soloing scrambling and i was like oh yeah and he's like yeah i'm i'm i'm thinking about scrambling tomorrow i was like okay and that week i had been getting people into position ready to like move if anything happened. And so I just sat there and I stretched for 45 more minutes and he just looked at me and he's like, don't you have to go somewhere?

And I was like, ah, no, the sun's still on the east ledges. I'm going to wait until it's a little cooler. And I just made it seem super casual. But the amount of work that needed to be done to get everybody in position and all the camera equipment and everything lined up, I mean, it was significant. But we've also been working for two and a half years. And so I finally get up and I walk out of the room and I put the word out and we call him, his code name is Bambi because he's got these big brown eyes. And, you know, I was like, it's on like Bambi is, you know, wait, wait, wait, hold on. so that 45 minute stretch were you helping to down regulate

were you helping to not be a big deal were you being in some cases like you know the the horse that's that's not getting kind of wild so the other horses don't get riled up that type of calming ground so you knew what you were doing oh a hundred percent yeah it was everything i could do to stay there and hang out and be chill and just make it seem like it ain't no thing this is you go tomorrow that's cool i'm gonna keep stretching my hamstrings and uh and then i walked out the door and then you know it's like deploying like the special ops teams you know it's like yeah i'm going tomorrow and then it was just like like you know we rigged all night long um most of my crew had only had a couple hours of sleep by the

morning um but we had it planned out to a t because throughout the last two and a half years we had figured out exactly what the best angles were exactly where we were going to be which were the critical pitches how we were going to get there exactly how much rope so we didn't have to bring any extra rope i mean you're wrapping in with like sometimes four bundles of 200 foot ropes a person because the the route doesn't go up so some people are over here some people are over here it's like i mean with all our camera equipment by the time we're wrapping in with like full ropes i mean you could be looking at for sure 50 60 70 pounds depending you know you're carrying all your food and water for the day um and you're wrapping like a thousand fifteen hundred feet

down el cap um and so you know always the hardest shot was the one in the middle because you either had to go up 1500 feet or you had to drop in 1500 feet so the middle shots like the monster off with those things were like the boulder problem i mean they're really hard to get to i mean not not anymore because like i know how to get there in my sleep but but like normally if you show up in El Cap and you're like, Hey, I'm going to wrap him to the boulder problem. People would be like, Whoa, that's hardcore or whatever. But you know, I mean, we were so dialed in. Do you use mental imagery to prepare for climbs?

I do, but not like Alex. There was a period before he went and sold it that week there was many days where he just sat in his van with like the door closed and was just visualizing and he told me he would visualize well well, he would practice the moves. Then he would practice them in the incorrect sequence. So in case he ever made a mistake, he knew how to get out of it. He would visualize it. He would visualize himself falling. So he and I, I know that you and I spoke about this, but he and I did an interview about this.

And I loved that he said that because there's such a weird taboo that is not held up by science like you know like if you see it you're manifesting it is bullshit that's not how it works and people are so afraid to see something bad or something negative or no how about see how you're going to respond to a challenging situation how about that that's exactly he's comfortable with it that's exactly yeah it doesn't mean that you're inviting it it just means that you've got like oh this solutions feel like to fall and then he would just examine it and like and so he his visualization process you know i can't really say exactly what it was but i mean it's very very intense you know what i didn't ask him i didn't

ask him uh eyes closed or open i'm assuming closed most people do but did you ever catch him doing it and the reason i'm asking is because sometimes people do imagery and they're moving slight movements going through it you know and some people are just like completely it looks like they're just sleeping yeah i didn't ever i never, I just knew I'd be like, wow, he's been in there for days. He wasn't like doing, yeah. Or he, he might've even told me, he's like, no, I just need, I need to think, you know, like he knew every single, he almost knew,

he knew where all the cruxes were. And so he was going through those. But yes, I mean, I definitely visualize for skiing or climbing on expeditions. I visualize, you know, what certain things might be or feel like and kind of get ahead of it in a way. So when you're on the edge of a mountain and you're on your expedition or you're on somebody's else's expedition and you're filming, whatever it might be, where do you know that you could make a mistake? Is it, I'm tired, I'm fatigued, let's go forward? I'm tired, I'm fatigued, I don't want to go?

Where do you make your mistakes? Usually, and this isn't just for me, but like the mistakes happen often in benign situations. Okay. That have big consequences where you're not, where you don't feel when you're focused on something that's really hard and potentially dangerous that's not usually where it happens it's the moments before the moments after um you're too comfortable that's when things happen so there's a certain knowing that you kind of have to constantly be on because you're like, oh, this is a moment where you don't think anything's going to happen. Don't let anything happen. Then, of course, there is there are those moments where fatigue, where you've just done 24 hours and you're repelling.

That's why most accidents in the mountains happen when you're descending. Um, and also because there's a lot of times when you're disconnecting the rope, putting it back in, disconnecting the rope, putting, when you're going, when you're rappelling. Um, so we like sing a song, like don't rappel off the end of your rope song. You know, it's like you, you kind of almost joke about it um it's kind of morbid but you're just like don't wrap off the end of your rope you know like they'll be wrapping your friend will be next to you they're wrapping first you go and you actually look at them you're like don't wrap off the end of your rope bud you know like and it's like yep won't wrap off the end of my rope and you know you're double checking their systems they're double checking your systems oddly it seems that it's much easier to feel like a responsibility

to check somebody else's systems because you're less like you're like oh i'm in charge of their safety so i'm gonna do it right and you're a little sometimes you're a little bit more lax about yourself i'm not saying like i i do that intentionally but like that's just the case so you're always double checking theirs that your partner is your responsibility they're checking yours you know um but yes there's definitely moments when you're like okay we're right at the edge we're all wasted like totally smoked and you can tell and just for clarity this is not you're not talking about drugs you're talking about you're so destroyed where there's this feeling that starts to happen where it's like i don't even really care i know it yeah and you're like i don't really care if i go off the end of this rope it's not literally like that but there's this

feeling where you're like i'm just i'm you know it's like you're so past your threshold of you know keeping it together and it's been so intense for so long it just starts like you just can't really dig it out of yourself anymore you're like okay yeah there's a there's a period like i observed this or someone taught it to me i can't remember but post projects when we're doing a bunch of projects with red bull um it was quite apparent the two-week window after something that was really game shifting that's where people would find themselves getting hurt so they did the big thing whatever it was then two weeks later i don't know they're ripping down the you know the freeway on with on their motorcycle thinking they're invincible

or not wearing their seatbelt or something. It's like that's where things can stop. Survive that, whatever. Jesus. Listen, I could go on with sharing stories and learning from you. I just want to say thank you for making a difference in so many people in their lives of understanding risk, risk management, risk taking, authenticity, being true, and being a beacon for that calibration of what's true and what's pure, and not only being about

it, but capturing it. And so- Thank you for saying that. I can only hope. Yeah. I live inside my own bubble. So I, yeah. Yeah. No, I've, I've heard it a lot about you and your work. And so, um, and I've experienced it as well. Like I love watching your work. And so, um, I just want to say thank you. And where's the place people can find you? What do you, you know, download Maru.com. Like what, what do you want? What are we doing?

Maru's on Amazon free solo is on Disney plus. We have quite a few films coming out shortly and, and a couple of series that are also coming out in the next year in this next year and following years. So keep an eye out for those. We're really excited about them. We have three feature docs, documentaries that are coming out. We have three new series that are coming out. But, you know, my Instagram handle is just jimmychin.com. But otherwise, but otherwise uh yeah i i i hope that um people are inspired by the work and moved by the work and and have a shift in perspective on the human condition and human potential um and i love this

conversation so uh thank you for having me oh dude i can't wait to go surfing again with you that was honestly that was a highlight of last year. Like no joke. Seriously. I know both of us have done some cool shit, but that was a highlight, you know, like everything about it just was magical. And yeah, hopefully we'll get to do that again soon. I hope so too. All right, brother. Take care. All right. Cheers. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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