Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Singer-Songwriter Jewel on Music, Insight, Community (ft. Wisdom 2.0's Soren Gordhamer)

Episode Date: February 8, 2017

This conversation is with Soren Gordhamer and singer-songwriter, Jewel. This week’s podcast is a bit unique. It’s with singer-songwriter Jewel and also features a guest appearance from Wisdom 2.0 founder Soren Gordhamer. Soren’s brought tech leaders and wisdom leaders together to have a deep exchange of ideas and practices with one purpose: how to better impact the living and working environments for us and maybe the next generation. If you're not familiar with Wisdom 2.0, I encourage you to go check it out. Their next conference is in San Francisco from February 17-19. This conversation is primarily about Jewel - her path, her insights and where her music comes from. Jewel’s path is completely her own, yet at the same time, just like yours, just like mine, just like so many of us. She touches on universal concepts and principles that cut across humanity, that cut across all people. It's the deeper calling to belong to love, to touch our own potential and humanity, to adjust to the difficult and stay true to what authenticity means. To me that is a fundamental skill and approach to life, that is right at the center of what she's about. Her courage is demonstrated by her willingness to look within and not turn away from what is painful and dark --and there lies the spring from where her truth is expressed -- and -- in return the music, the movements, the words, and thoughts that come together to form beauty. I hope that comes across in this conversation. As a reminder these conversations are long form. There's no way to hack or shortcut the insights that people have worked their entire life to try to understand. There are no shortcuts for this and so the there should be no short cuts for the learning either. We want to be proficient, we want to be as expedient as we can possibly be in learning, but at the same time let’s embrace the long form and the watering of ideas, knowing that there's so much more to still unpack. In this conversation, we jump into why fear is a “thief.” Isn't that a cool word for fear? We also discuss doing the hard work to figure out who you truly are, what forgiveness means to Jewel, and why perfectionism has been an inhibitor to mastery or her. I want to share this idea one more time with you guys that: “every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece.” This conversation pulls on that thread like you wouldn't believe. So together hopefully we can make this commitment to carve our unique paths with some fuel and some fire and just really get after it in life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This conversation is with Soren Gordhammer and singer songwriter, Jewel. Soren is a friend and a founder of Wisdom 2.0, and I've enjoyed his friendship immensely. And it's not so much the frequency of our time, but it's the nature and the quality of our relationship that is so pure and so true. And so what he's done at Wisdom 2.0, if you and practices with one purpose, which is how to better or how to impact better the living and working environments for us and maybe the next generation. So this conversation in this podcast is primarily about Jewel and her path and her insights and where her music comes from. And Jewel's path

is completely her own. And at the same time, just like yours, just like mine, just like so many of us, she touches on universal concepts and principles that cut across humanity, cuts across all people. It's the deeper calling to belong, to love, to touch our own potential and humanity that she speaks to. To adjust to the difficult and stay true to what authenticity means to her, to you, to me, that is a fundamental skill and approach to life that is right at the center of what she's about. And it's her courage that is demonstrated by her willingness to look deep within, like really deep within, and to not turn away from what is painful or dark or what others think you shouldn't think or say. And therein lies what it

seems to me the spring from which her truth is expressed. And in return, where her music and her movements and words and her thoughts, that they are strung together with a thread of beauty. And I hope that comes across in this conversation. And as a reminder, these conversations are long form. There's no way to hack or shortcut the insights that people have worked their entire life to try to understand. There are no shortcuts for this. And so the learning, there should be no shortcuts either. We want to be proficient.

We want to be as expedient as we can possibly be in learning. But at the same time, let's embrace the long form, the watering of ideas, knowing that there's so much more still to unpack. And in this conversation, we jump into like why fear is a thief. Isn't that a cool word for fear? And doing the hard work to figure out who you truly are, what forgiveness means to Jewel. She goes into a deep conversation about that and why perfectionism for her has been an inhibitor to mastery. You can find more about her at Twitter, and it's at Jewel, J-E-W-E-L-J-K. And you can also follow along with Soren on Twitter, at Wisdom2, the number two, C-O-N-F for conference. So at Wisdom2, C-O-N-F.

So with that, I want to share this idea one more time with you guys that every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece. This conversation pulls on that thread like you wouldn't believe. So together, hopefully we can make this commitment to carve our unique paths with some fuel and some fire and just really get after it in life. So let's jump right into this conversation with Jewel and Soren. Jewel, Soren, how are you guys? Awesome. I'm good, thank you. Okay, so Soren, could you start us off with how you and Jewel met and then maybe bring us into the fold how the three of us are having this conversation now sure so i was reached out by a colleague of jules uh named brian and he was looking up wisdom 2.0 which is a conference i

organized and reading about all the different speakers and about the focus and he reached out and like listen you have to meet jules like you guys have to be in contact because what you're trying to do in the world is very very similar similar. And she does it through music and through nonprofits and through a lot of things that she can tell you more about during this podcast. But he sensed that there was a synergy there. And I felt the same. And I've loved her music ever since I listened to music as a teenager. And I was not very musical.

I could never sing. I actually didn't listen to much music at all. But Jules was music that always just really spoke to me. And I felt her music, you know, it's like she had a beautiful voice, but there was something bigger than her voice coming through. There was like a message that was like, it was infused with a certain kind of care and love and compassion. And so as soon as he had mentioned that we should connect, I was like, of course, absolutely. And so we arranged a meeting and are partnering this year on Wisdom 2.0, which is coming up in a few weeks, where Jewel both performs and also speak. So I'm really excited for that. And we're also just looking at other possibilities. But I think the world is in such a situation now with everything going on in the political spectrum, particularly in the US, where we need voices and we need people that bring us together and we need ways to come together.

That's beyond political affiliation. And it's about kindness and it's about connection. And I think Jewel really lives that and speaks that and embodies that. And I want to do the same. So how we got here today was after meeting her and connecting with her, I'm like, hey, you've got to talk to my friend Mike because Mike's also on the same path. He's in the same community, the same tribe. And he's got this great podcast. And what if we spend some time with mike and just kind of see how things roll and again i'm hoping jewel does most of the talking here because i think she's got so much today but i'm happy to be support and i'm happy to make this

connection because i think the world of both of you and i think more than ever we need to join forces you know um jewel at the wisdom 2.0 conference that Soren has set up has been this incredible hub of really switched on people that are highly engaged in their life and at the same time care more about other people and meeting because of Wisdom 2.0, a la Because of Soren. And so excited to meet you and excited to learn from you as well. Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk. that deeply influence our path. And can you pick one of those two, either a person or an event that helped to shape you in a significant way and set you down a trajectory to where you are now? And can you pick one of those two and tell us some stories about how you became who you are? Yeah. When I was 15, I was sort of faced with this decision of, do I want to move out on my own? My parents got divorced when I was eight years old. My mom left and my dad took over raising us. We moved back to a homestead where my dad was raised. So I

grew up living in a saddle barn. My dad had pretty significant PTSD. He had a very abusive childhood and then went straight to Vietnam and then straight into being a dad. And when my mom left, it really triggered him. And so he handled that the best he knew how. I'm very grateful that he took my brothers and I and raised us. But he also turned to drinking to try and handle and manage his anxiety. And so there's a really dramatic change in my life, not only from the divorce and moving onto the homestead, but also just a huge behavior change in my dad as he became physically abusive when he began drinking. So we had a somewhat transient life. I grew up bar singing with my dad. I'd been on stage actually since I was five. My parents had a show in hotels for tourists.

And when my mom left, I became my dad's partner, I guess. And I was probably the only fourth grader that went from elementary school right to the bar, which was educational. And I began writing at this time because I started seeing people in pain. When you're in bar rooms, you watch people dealing with pain in all kinds of ways. And I realized that you never actually outrun pain. And because I was now in pain, you know, with the divorce and my dad becoming abusive, I made a couple of promises to myself. One was not to drink or to use the tactics I was watching in the bar rooms that I saw didn't work. I saw people with pain try and cover up their pain and avoid their pain and ended up adding layers and layers and layers and layers of more pain.

And so I tried to face the pain as it came and I turned to writing, which ended up being the beginning of my mindfulness practice. When I was 15, I made a decision to move out on my own. And that was for me, this very seminal moment in my life. Okay. Jewel, can I totally interrupt? And I know that I'm interrupting and I want to hear the rest of your story, but I don't know how I can keep track of the 15 gems that you just said. Mom was likely in pain and because like the, through the marriage or the separation of the marriage and were, were you in pain as well as a youngster? Yeah. Nobody enjoys a divorce. Nobody enjoys the idea of their mom leaving. And then why did you choose to stay with dad or was that Or was mom like, I'm done? There was no choice? Like, how did that happen?

My mom left. Yeah, she said she didn't want to be a mom. I wasn't aware of that quite at the time. So I wasn't exactly sure why we were living with my dad. But, you know, as a child, definitely missed my mom. And you talk about a lifestyle change. I went from being a Mormon, very family-oriented, you know, Mormon family in Anchorage, Alaska, to living with a single dad who suddenly drank and smoked and chewed and dated and became abusive and was singing in bar rooms. So it was a very radical change. And any time a child's hit, it creates a tremendous amount of pain and confusion for sure. And then your outlook is you were observing others in pain. You had your own source of pain that you're trying to sort out as a brilliant little 14 year old does. This is an eight year old, but yeah.

Oh, that was at eight. All of this was at eight. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And then you, you made a decision or you had the insight that, um, you can't outrun the pain. Is that how you said it? Or can't out? Yeah. insight that you can't outrun the pain. Is that how you said it? Or can't out?

Yeah. Yeah. You don't outrun pain. And then so you decided to write about it and you decided to feel it? Yeah. I decided to try and face it instead of putting it off because I learned there was no putting it off. The great thing about singing in bars is you see tactics, what people call coping mechanisms. And so you

see drinking, you see drugs, you see relationships, you see all kinds of codependency, you see anger, you see rage, you see people who gave up, who just sit there quietly and drink and have no family and have sort of given up on life. I saw that none of these tactics works. I had a front row seat to the very worst of coping mechanisms. And what I didn't realize at the time was by me deciding to never drink and looking for relief, I started to move towards pain instead of away from pain. I started to get curious. And that curiosity led me to write about it and go, I wonder what's happening when my dad acts this way. I started to observe. And what that did was actually put me in the driver's seat.

I read a lot of philosophy over the next several years. There's a quote by Descartes you're probably familiar with that says, I think, therefore I am. And if I could refine it a little bit, I would say it's I perceive what I think, therefore I am. And if I could refine it a little bit, I would say it's I perceive what I think, therefore I am. Every time I wrote and got curious, my perceiver, what I perceived about my thoughts was highlighted. And I realized I wasn't my thoughts. So if I was able to observe I was sad, I was something other than sad. So what is that something other? What is that observer? Began to be a question that really fascinated me. And every time I sat down to write, it was sort of like an active meditation because I wasn't in my brain. I was observing my thoughts. I was observing my pain and the anxiety and the tension always lessened every time I did it.

And that was actually forming a positive coping mechanism. I like to call it brilliant resilience. You know, we each have these internal resources and your brain can get addicted to good habits as much as they can get addicted to bad habits. And I started getting myself addicted to good habits, thankfully, luckily at a young age. So I'm listening to you, Joel, going, holy, like, that's it. Like that, that meta awareness, you've been training and practicing this meta awareness, this fancy word for observing, detaching, if you will, from your thoughts so that you can be more clear and see and, you know, feel, but not be consumed by it through writing practices from a long time. What I want to get

to from you, Jewel, is how many reps you've had facing pain, feeling pain, and what you've learned from that facing it and feeling it. Because so many of us, we run from it. It's so uncomfortable. Even the thought that one day we're going to be in pain in the future, we do things to numb or distract. And so that's where I want to go. But just really quickly, I want to say that I remember at, it was fourth grade. So I think it was about 12 years old, somewhere in that range. I remember feeling really empty. And I've talked about this a bunch before. There was just a hollowness. And so I think that that is one of the parts I first remember in my own life, as you guys are sharing that it's like, oh, my God, this is not the way it's supposed to be. There's an emptiness in my life.

And I don't I don't know why a 12 year old or an eight year old or like that sounds to be pretty deep. And I don't know if that's common for most people, but it certainly is for you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people have that experience, but they're not really given a skill set of what to do with it. And we're taught to be distracted. And it's actually something that culture makes more and more convenient right now is to distract ourselves from being the observer. I had a lot of pain points. I moved out at 15, which was very frightening. I was suddenly supporting myself entirely on my own. I was hitchhiking to work because I wasn't old enough to drive. I ended up getting an amazing scholarship to a private art school when I showed

up by myself with a hunting knife because I'm like this Alaskan girl. To a prestigious minor at school in Michigan. Realized I couldn't stay on campus for the breaks. Realized I couldn't afford food and books. Had to get more jobs. And began having panic attacks. I had a lot of trauma and my own sort of PTSD. And I didn't know what panic attacks were. And for anybody that's ever had them, it's very frightening because they overtake you.

It got to the point where I could kind of feel them coming on. And I could excuse myself out of class. and for anybody that's ever had them, it's very frightening because they overtake you. I got to the point where I could kind of feel them coming on and I could excuse myself out of class and I would just go get in the fetal position in my dorm room and have these panic attacks. And I slowly started to find ways of coping with them and not really coping but really healing by coming up with these visual meditations of sinking into the water. It's something I talk about in my book. And then when I would sink down to the bottom of the water, I'd imagine the colors, the taste of the salt water, the colors changing as I went down into the calmer water. And then I learned that from that space, I could look up at the surface of my imaginary water, my imaginary world, and go, what's causing the storm? What brought that storm on? And I found if

I got curious and asked myself questions, I would get answers. And I learned to kind of begin to really help my anxiety attacks in a meaningful way about that age, about 16. And then I graduated high school, went to San Diego. My mom was there. She had heart problems. I started paying rent and helping take care of her. And my boss propositioned me one day. And when I wouldn't have sex with him, he fired me without giving me my paycheck. How old were you? I was 18 at this point. And so my mom and I got kicked out of where we were living. And I thought, eh, no big deal. I'll live in my car for a couple months. My mom will live in her car for a couple of months. I'll get back on my feet, get a deposit for a new apartment. But I had bad kidneys at the time.

Okay. Hold on, Joel. Two things. One is like you casually say, eh, I'll live in my car. How does an 18 year old make that decision? Well, it was the only option. And luckily being, you know, we had no savings. I was, I was paying everything. I was stealing toilet paper. Uh, I was hostessing in restaurants and, you know, eating half eaten food off the plates. Every single penny went to rent. I just couldn't afford it. I didn't have good enough paying jobs. So why not, why not date the older man? Like that's it. That is part of the decision process it is yeah i got propositions that way a lot um different times in my life uh you know it's interesting when i was bar singing i watched what women would compromise for a compliment

just for a compliment just for somebody to be kind to them in that moment. And you thought that was unbecoming or ugly or vile. Is it like, what's the intensity of your response to that experience? I saw that women sold themselves short, that they had real value and they gave it away just to be liked and that it was my job to learn to like myself, um, to never need somebody else's approval more than I needed that. And I had these pioneer women around me, my aunts. I grew up in a pioneer state where there weren't these very strong gender roles like down here in the lower 48. So in Alaska, the women build their own fences, they shoe their own horses, they build their own cabins, but they're these very feminine women.

And the men do whatever needs to be done. They do all the same things. We take turns cooking. There's just not these delineated roles of male, female in my family. You know, my family were pioneers that helped settle the state. So I had this view of, even though I was abused and, you know, you have all kinds of self-confidence issues, I felt like I had some value and that it wasn't my sexuality. And when you're raised around predators in bar rooms with drunk, aggressive men, you learn to be very aware of your sexuality. You'd be very aware of what you're putting out there and what you're not putting out there. It was a lesson I learned at a young age. And it was funny, you know, I just continued to be offered like after I graduated high school, you know, somebody's like, you can be my muse. It was an artist and it paid good,

but I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. I've never been able to, when I was homeless, I remember this guy ran an escort service because finding a place to shower was hard. And this guy's like, Hey, you can shower at my house. So I made sure I knew where he worked. I made sure he was at work. I stopped by his work and I was like, okay, he's not at the apartment. I can go shower there. This is when I was homeless. And, uh, there were a bunch of girls hanging around. I quickly realized he was running a call service and the girls were like, you're beautiful. You should dance. You should strip. And I've always understood the temptation of it and the fear that women have of saying, I don't know how to provide myself. And those are those times in our lives, whether you're male or female, we all have these junctures in our lives

where you go, do I double down and do I bet on myself? How much do I believe in myself? And how much am I willing to bet on myself? And I think because of that pioneer spirit, for whatever reason, I was willing to say I have value even if nobody else sees it. And that was the most difficult part about being homeless. It's very dehumanizing. People won't let you – they won't even look in the eye. They treat you like you're subhuman or like you have leprosy. I could name example after example of the way people make you feel like you're just a disposable human and fighting for your own humanity, I would say has been my life's journey of what is my humanity? What is

my worth? What is my value? And what, what can I contribute? Oh my goodness. Yeah. Intense. How did you become aware of your panic attacks? Like that? I think that's really important. Like some, many people have a panic attack. They're afraid the panic attack is going to come thereafter. Their intensity of anxiousness increases and they freak out. And, and, and so now like the rising tide and it's not a good tide for people. So how did you become aware that they were coming? You start to feel like I could feel precursors. I'd start to feel really anxious. I had little funny tics, like my body would start rocking. There's no reason I should be anxious. I just started noticing my anxiety levels really skyrocket. I started to get a claustrophobic

feeling and I knew I had to go get somewhere and get alone because I was going to have a full-on panic attack. Very frightening when you don't know what they are. You know, for me at 16, when they went away for a while, but when I was homeless, they started to really come back. When I moved out at 15, I looked at this idea of nature versus nurture. And I thought, if I didn't receive good nurture, can I get to know my real nature? And can I re-nurture myself? So I set out with this mission that was sort of almost scientific in the way I was trying to tackle it. If I can identify the emotional language I was raised with in my house, and if I can teach myself a new emotional language, I can have a different outcome for myself. How do I not repeat the cycle?

Because boys and girls raised like me tend to grow up the way they were raised and repeating it. Like my dad, for instance, he had an abusive childhood. He didn't want to be an abusive dad, but it was literally the only skill set he had. And all you can do is abstain for so long that there's a vacuum. Unless you learn a new behavior, you will repeat the behavior. And it's brain science. It's neuroscience. It's the only neural connection you have. So at 15, I knew I had to retrain my brain, learn a new emotional language. And I did so good. Like for three years, I really did good on my own. And then fast forward, I'm homeless. I'm having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic, which is an intense fear of leaving your house. I started shoplifting to try and get by.

And I looked in the mirror one day while I was trying to steal a dress. And I went, oh, I am a statistic. I didn't beat the odds. This big hope I had when I moved out at 15, I didn't succeed and seeing that it's basically a thief. And it takes the past and it projects it into the future. And it robs you of the singular opportunity you have to create change in your life, which is right now. How do you show up right now if you're stuck in constant fear cycles, if you're constantly stuck in your mind? I had to learn how to get outside of my mind. And so I developed a new set of tools for myself to make myself present, one of which was following my hands around,

so that every time I stole, I just watched myself. I observed myself. And that got me again in that observer role, which puts you in the driver's seat of your life and helps you then learn how to intervene in the moment and change behavior versus always being in the passenger seat of your life and helps you then learn how to intervene in the moment and change behavior versus always being in the passenger seat of your life and reacting to past programming and being a puppet of your past pain. And that then sets a self-fulfilling prophecy of what your future will be. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. What is your relationship now like with your mom and your dad? My relationship with my dad's really good. He, um, he let me talk about our relationship very candidly in my book. It's called Never Broken, where he shares about his own childhood. And my dad never heard the words, I love you, till he was on, my granddad was on his deathbed. He finally on his deathbed told my dad he loved him. And it changed my dad's life. My grandfather wasn't able to change. He was a brilliant man, many, many good things. Something I really try and talk about in my book that nobody's all good and all bad. We're just, um,

a mixture of skillsets that we learn. Um, and life is really about doing this archeological dig back to our wholeness, back to our real self. My granddad couldn't do that, find that aspect of him until he was on his deathbed. My dad was able to do it in his fifties. And so I forgave my dad the day I moved out. Um, I think a lot of people misunderstand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness isn't a gift that condones the other person. It's a gift you give yourself, um that tie, lets go of that anger. And so I forgave my dad, but it didn't mean we had a relationship. My dad earned back a relationship by changing, not just by saying, I'm sorry, but by creating new behaviors.

And he and I have an amazing relationship now. And I find that to be an amazing success story, largely not only due to the work that I did, but the work that my dad was willing to do. It's a very difficult thing to face the shame of saying, Hey, I became an abusive parent. I need to figure out how to heal these relationships, which means I have to learn how to heal myself. And that's a journey my dad was willing to take. And I find that to be truly courageous. My mom, different story, a whole different podcast. She came back into my life, helped manage me. It didn't go so well.

I haven't seen her since 2003. What were you looking for when you invited her to be your manager? I think the core wound for me, for any child that's left by a parent, I think maybe especially if it's your mom, is there's always this core wound in you that makes you love sick. You're love sick for that parent's love. And that put a real blind side in me, put a blind spot in me. I was such a street savvy kid. But having my mom want to be a part of my life, feeling like, oh, I could have somebody that looks after me. This is a scary situation to go into the music business and to

have this person that I've always wanted to have a relationship step up and say, I'll protect you. And this was very attractive to me. Soren, what are you guys going to talk about? Are you going to interview Jewel at Wisdom 2.0? Or Jewel, are you going to talk in a different direct? I guess this question is for Soren. What are you guys going to do at Wisdom 2.0? Well, you know me, Michael. It's emergent. So we address whatever is most alive in the moment.

And I'm just downloading all the pieces that she's talking about now um but she'll perform the first night or saturday night for an hour which to hear her perform these days it's it's both music and storytelling and it's it's this beautiful combination of her experience and her wisdom both through through voice and music and through storytelling and experience um and then we'll sit down for an interview, and then there'll be an audience time to talk to, to ask questions to Jewel. But for me, just like how this podcast is unfolding, the most exciting things often come from the unplanned.

We think we can plan things, and oh, I'm going to say this or I'm going to say that. And yet I find that the the things life has its own agenda if you will and it doesn't always meet my agenda and so for me the art is really listening to what is it that wants to come forth what is it that wants to happen what are the voices inside me inside you inside her that kind of want to come forth and be seen in this moment right now and really trusting and following that thread and knowing that that's going to take us where we need to go, wherever that is. So that, that Soren, like, Joel, you'll, I think you'll find this funny is that the first interview

that I did, it was in 2.0, is that I followed Soren's lead, we get out on stage, and he looks at me and I look at him, and we just looked at each other for a minute. And so like it can feel, I don't know, like a blind trust or whatever, whatever that we would describe that sitting in the unknown. And it takes incredible courage. I'd love for you guys to talk about the courage to embrace the unknown. Because what I found is that that is one of the most significant accelerants to people pursuing their potential or, or revealing their humanity in your words, Jewel. And so can you guys talk about that? And I think you'll both have a different

perspective. I'm, I'm really touched by what I know, I know you've shared this before, but I'm just really touched by what you're sharing about your family. And my guess is there's a lot of people out there who will hear this and relate on of us speak about kind of the pain that we've inherited and the beauties and the joys right it's like we want to like demonize our parents or we want to like pedestal and it's just like no it's multifaceted it's totally multifaceted um so anyway before I wanted people often ask me you know how do you how did I share so much like in my book, for instance, when I'm stage or when I'm in, even in my music, I'm like, my experience is everybody's experience. It's just dressed up a little different. It might not have taken place in Alaska or you might have not had have had everything happen, you know, that has happened to me, but we all have the same story. And what my next chapter in life is going to be about is actually what my first chapter was about. How can I connect with people? How can I

share what I'm learning to make me less lonely? How can I empower myself and how can I lift the people around me? And that's what I tried to use my career for and as. That's what it did for me. That's what I was able to build in my fan group was a group of people that supported me and allowed me to grow and change and be fallible and lead with my flaws. Because to come back to your point, Michael, the willingness to live in the unknown is where the good stuff happens. And you're only going to be decent. You're only going to be good if you have a plan. You know, if you're willing to let go of the idea of perfectionism and for anybody that's had any type of gift, you know, for me, it might be singing, it might be sports for some people,

it might be going into the business world for other people. You can only get so good. We try and use perfectionism as a rocket fuel. And it works. At a young age, I practiced harder. I worked harder. I expected more of myself. I became a better singer than anybody else in my town.

And so pushing myself. Well, I pushed myself. When I went away, and I basically internalized my town. And so pushing myself, well, I pushed myself when I went away and I basically internalized my critic. So my dad was difficult, abusive. He was hard to practice with. When my dad wasn't there pushing me, I did it myself. I internalized my own abuser. I was quite mean to myself. My internal voice was very mean. We all do. That's exactly what we all do. And then it becomes insidious because we've lost track of, is that me now? Like, is this who I am? And it becomes really slippery because it's invisible if you're not paying attention to your thoughts. And it is a nasty journey. And I love what you said about rocket fuel, because the way that I talk about perfection, it will get you good and it will cut you along the way.

So by the time you get to the world stage, you've got a thousand cuts and you're ready to bleed out, not enjoying the fruits of your craft or the joy of expression. And it actually puts a ceiling on your ability for actual genius. Flat out. I love that. You know, it's kind of like you can get really close to the summit, but you're not going to summit. Because you're too careful. Perfectionism makes you careful. It doesn't actually make you great.

And so I realized from my career, from my music, from my writing, if I wanted to try to become a master in my life, in my music, in my craft, in my art. I had to let go of perfectionism. I had to let go of any kind of safety net. And I had to be willing to take big risks. What does it take to take a big risk? It takes self-love. What a beautiful circle. It brought me back to myself and learning how to be kind to myself. It made me force every time that internal critic was going, hey hey that isn't good enough you suck it forced me to re-parent myself basically with kindness and the kindness i was never shown in my own life but i was able to show it to myself and that again was a whole other journey how did you do it how did you do like self-love when you didn't you weren't taught it you weren't taught

love well let's say you weren't taught love the You weren't taught love. Well, let's say you weren't taught love the way that you're craving it now, or that you understand it now. Maybe that's a fair way to say it. Like they were trying to show love, but maybe didn't do it the way that you're hoping it would be. So how did you do that? One, I know it was awareness. You had to have awareness of your experience and your thoughts and your sensations. That's part one. And then how did you course correct? This is where I think, by the way, Jewel, whatever you're going to say, my antenna are fully up because this is the piece I believe that is missing in the mindfulness community. And I know Soren,

you're going to say, whoa, wait a minute, not the case. But like this is- Not necessarily. Okay. So this piece, because when I'm working with people who are on the razor's edge, they're in very hostile and dangerous environments where if they make a mistake, someone could die or they could die. That being aware is not enough. It is a prerequisite to enter the amphitheater, but it's not enough. What you're going to say next, I'm really curious how you've come to understand it. Sorry to add layers and layers of intensity, you know, but okay. But this piece right here, whether we're talking about love or course correcting, you know, off a 50 foot cliff, whatever it is, this course correction piece

is fascinating to me. It was two things. One is a motto that I started living called hardwood grows slowly, which I'm going to revisit in one second. The other was a game I started playing called The Antidote. And so I basically would look at my anxiety levels. I had a decent ability to stay in my body and go, ooh, I'm feeling anxious, even if I didn't know the cause of it. So I would listen to my body cues and I would allow that to be a little neon sign. And when I got anxious, it was like having a neon sign saying some things that pay attention. So going toward the uncomfortableness and asking myself, what are the gremlins saying in my head? What are the lies? What is my brain telling me?

So one time I had to do a film. It was with Ang Lee, high pressure. I was a music singer. I didn't act. And the gremlins really started coming up. I started telling myself, I'm going to fail. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't belong here. I don't know what I'm doing came up over and over and over for me. And so I started writing down the lies and I would write them down. These are my lies. And I would write them down on a column on the left-hand side of the paper. And then I would, on the other hand of the paper, say my antidote, which was the truth.

What is the truth for me, really? What is the truth that is the antidote that cancels out that negative feeling? It's that I'm capable of learning. It isn't that I know the answers, but I am capable of learning. And so I would basically go for lie for lie and then write down truth for truth. And every time I started having anxiety and I heard a lie in my head, I would replace it with my antidote thought. The truth is I'm capable of learning. The truth is I believe in me. The truth is I'm allowed to make mistakes and I'm still lovable. All kinds of messages I had to start giving myself. And I started to show myself kindness.

I started to be willing to say, you know, what is winning in this situation? Is it being the best actress, for instance, in this situation? Or is it saying I showed up today and I tried my hardest and I didn't let fear and other things inhibit me and I can my hardest. And I didn't let fear and other things inhibit me. And I can try even better tomorrow. That started being a real change, game changer. The other thing for me with hardwood grows slowly is I studied nature because I was raised outdoors in Alaska. And something you mentioned before is the tide rising, anxiety and panic attacks. I saw everything in nature had a rhythm. I'm going to touch on a couple topics, but I'm going to revisit pain briefly.

We process emotional pain in the same part of our brains that we process physical pain. And so just to give some context to let people know that that is why we're so deathly afraid of a hurt feeling. The same way we're afraid of somebody saying, hey, give me your arm. I'm going to break it. Like we're self-protective beings. And so we process pain in the same part. And so what I learned with pain is that it has a rhythm, just like every single thing in nature has a rhythm. And I had to learn how to trust the rhythm. And so if I was sad, it just meant the tide was out that day, that the tide was going to come back in. And so you can sit in sadness, you can sit in grief, whatever the darker

emotions are, because you know, the tide's going to come back around. Nothing's constant. It's not forever. And then I began watching trees and the trees that lasted a long time and weathered every storm were these hardwood trees. They took a long time to grow. They had a beautiful shape and they were resilient. They knew that bending was actually resiliency. Anything rigid in nature dies. And so I began to look at myself and go, if I was a hardwood tree, what does that mean? What does that metaphor mean in human terms? Deep root systems. That's what helps us weather storms. So for me, my root system are my values. And so I began to write down my values. Who and what am I?

What do I stand for? And then every single day, I would make sure I was acting in line with those values. I would do a self audit before I went to sleep. Did I say this according to my values? Did I act like this according to my values? And I would do a self audit and you have to do it with love. You have to not be self shaming and doing those things at this point. Um, and when I didn't act on my values, I would make an amends and I would go back at it the next day. And for me, that's, you know, like I tell I have a five-year-old, you know, our compass in the forest of life is our values.

That's our North star. And as long as you're acting in line with your values every day, you're going to have an outcome. You're going to have an end of your life. So you look back on your life and go, I am the person I wanted to be. I didn't get distracted by fame. I didn't get distracted by power. I didn't get distracted by depression and fear because I lived my values. That's your guarantee. That's your blueprint.

Did you write them down, your values? And they've changed over the years, matured. You know, I've been having my son write his down because he needs to learn to listen to his heart and know that he has answers inside himself. So I wanted his compass to be his values, what are things he cares about. And I'm sure those will evolve and change, but I can at least start going, that wasn't in line with your value of kindness. Try that again. So there's, um, there's this concept I'd love to run by you that we talk about in the performance world, which is there's like four T's talk, uh, talk, teach, test, talk, teach, train, and test. So you can talk about love, compassion, values. You can teach the mechanics of what, how to generate those and be those more often. You can teach the mechanics of how to generate those and be those more often. You can train yourself and then we all get tested. And the test is really, are you your authentic self when it's difficult? And so I think we're thinking about things in similar ways.

Does that make any kind of sense to you? Yeah, definitely. You know, how do you take things from a theoretical theory? It's actually, there's an interesting book called Focusing. A psychotherapist wrote it to try and answer the question, why doesn't therapy work for everybody? Why do some people have breakthroughs and change their lives? And why do other people just talk about it forever? And he realized it takes more than an intellectual understanding of a concept. It takes a full body concept. So your observer, if you will, has to get involved. Your whole body has to have an aha moment. And then you have to practice that muscle. And it really is a habit. And that's why on my website where I share some of these tools, the tools at jewelneverbroken.com,

the slogan for my website is learn to make a habit out of happiness because it really is about building a skill set, practicing your skill set to where it becomes like a muscle memory. It's an emotional muscle memory, if you will. So that when you're in a pinch, that's going to be your reflex instead of a negative one. It's interesting. There's this whole piece around risk and how do we work on our edge and how do we um allow the edge to be present and us to be uncomfortable and to maintain mindfulness and to maintain our values and to maintain our um steadiness within the context of a challenging moment or a challenging society or a challenging president or a challenging family, whatever that challenge is. And I know, Mike, so much of your work kind of relates to that, right?

Which is like, it's one thing to be able to be steady and present when the moment's not very challenging or difficult. But what does it mean to be in that experience when there's a certain uncertainty? And like Jewel, I did a lot of hitchhiking. And when I look back, I'm like, why was I drawn to hitchhiking? did a lot of hitchhiking. And when I look back, I'm like, why was I drawn to hitchhiking? I was drawn to hitchhiking. And I think a lot of us are drawn to certain things because there is a danger element. There is an unknown element. There is like, I have to be really present for this moment or I could get in the wrong car and who knows where I would end up. And I think as humans, we're both fear the unknown, but we're also

like drawn to it. We're drawn to things that test us and that put us beyond the capacity that we currently think of ourselves as able as being able to handle. And I think just to acknowledge that the people who are almost the saddest people I know are the people who've never had challenges or who had a trust fund given, you know, life was easy. There's no risk. There was no there's no uh thing that asks us to go to our edge and so i just wanted to add my piece around like

that ability to want to test ourselves um how do we do it with kindness and how do we do it with compassion and how do we do it with self-love and i think jewel really hits the missing piece which is it's often like this male orientedoriented thing. I'm going to achieve. I'm going to grow. I'm going to get better. And underneath that is this fear of like, oh, shit, what if I don't? What if this new business doesn't work out? What if this new song doesn't work out?

What if this new book doesn't work out? What if it's whatever? And I think particularly as men, we just push forward. We push over that voice and be like, no, I'm the man. I'll take care of this. And yet there's also a more feminine approach that's like acknowledges like, no, who I am is worthy as I am. And that that opens up this whole other place of doing. It's not doing based on I'm going to show or prove or achieve. It's this whole other reservoir. It's like not the rocket fuel. There's a different

fuel that's there. And the result actually doesn't really matter as much because you're not dependent on that as your source of fuel and i think what jewel says is like we can we there's another energy source that we can harness and um and so that's where my attention just to you know is drawn and just and also the feminine masculine approaches right which i think so much in our society, we see the masculine, we see that power over push force. And like, where's the yin? Where's the soft? Where's the love? Where is that? And how do we bring those two together? And I don't think we have a lot of examples of that in our culture of very strong people who are balancing those pieces um and i have a lot of compassion you

know what you're talking about about you know i think men are taught you know there's intrinsic and an extrinsic combustion you know so when we're talking about those ideas of rocket fuel you know when you're an insecure person and you push yourself hard using perfectionism not you know not accepting anything less of yourself, it's still stemming from insecurity. So you're still using an external resource to combust performance out of yourself. When you have strong internal permission, when you have actual confidence, it doesn't mean the outcome is guaranteed. But when your fuel comes from within yourself, you're a beast. That makes you a competitive beast that you're unstoppable because you're

not spending a single ounce of energy looking at who's doing what around you. You're constantly looking inside yourself going, there is a mystery in me unfolding, and I'm listening, and I'm awake, and I'm paying attention. And when I learned that trick, it's like when you lock a rail surfing, you just, you skyrocket. And whether it's about personal growth or your career, but I always liked risk. I always liked, because I got comfortable with the unknown and with the vulnerability, if you will, of saying, I don't know what I'm going to do until I get up there. But that's where the greatness happens, is if you're willing to step into that atmosphere.

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It's very yielding. It's very robust because it's flexible and fluid. And what happens for the externally driven, when they get the big car, the big watch, the big fame, they need more. And that becomes really dangerous. And so, so, okay. The question then for you, Jewel, you came from nothing. I don't know Soren, like what your upbringing was, but this is for both you guys. When you come from nothing, which is many of the modern, um, uh, athletes, they come, most of them in traditional

stick and ball sports, they didn't come from the greatest neighborhoods and the greatest family structures. And that's why they're willing to do so much to be able to pursue something that has a way out and that they also really do enjoy. And they loved at a young age, but they never had anything. And this is my succinct question. When you didn't have anything and then you were given or you received much. How do you not get drunk on that? How did you not get drunk? Well, did you get drunk at some kind of way on fame and attention and money and resource and power?

I got discovered while I was homeless. I remember a record label was coming to see me that night and I want to clean hair. And so I was washing my hair in the Denny's bathroom sink using the hand soap and paper towels to dry my hair. And these women were behind me and I was humming. I was so excited. There was a label coming to see me. And these women behind me had these horrified looks on their faces. And I was like, I mean, I looked, I looked in the mirror. I was like, I'm a homeless girl washing her hair in a public sink, you know, like, holy crap. So that's the environment I was in when I got so dramatic, your storytelling ability, like it's so good. And so you'd think I had a bidding war after me. It was insane. Record label after record label

started writing down limousines were taking me out to dinner. What were they seeing? What were they noticing? What were they hungry for that you had at that moment? I found a coffee shop that would let me sing there every Thursday night where I got to keep the door money, which was unusual. Most places made you pay to sing there, which was bizarre. And I started getting a following. A local DJ heard about this loyal, loyal fan base that would stand outside in the rain to watch me sing through the windows. And the reason they were doing it, in my opinion, was because of this idea of the antidote thought, this idea of shame, love, secrecy. And we all are in pain and we're all trying to hide it and we use shame to keep ourselves silent. And I decided to that nobody read. I deserved to be alone. I deserved to be lonely. That's a lonely making habit. And so I took a risk and I started writing songs about mindfulness and about who will save my soul and who is in charge of me and am I a victim or is what I do with my hands up to me? And every,

I developed a following over the course of being a year when I was homeless. And so labels, I ended up having a bootleg on a local station. Labels heard about it. They started driving down. And I almost didn't sign the deal. I was offered a million-dollar signing bonus as a homeless girl. I read a book called Everything You Need to Know About the Music Business, which taught me about how contracts work, how mechanicals and royalties work specific to my industry.

And I realized basically you're being given a big loan. So that signing bonus is just a big bounty on your head, meaning if you don't deliver on the goods, which every athlete, every artist, we're hired. So if I didn't make good on that, I was going to be dropped from the team, if you will. I was going to be dropped from my record label. And so what could I do to protect the outcome I hoped to have, which was to be an artist? So I had to ask myself several questions. One, why am I doing what am I doing? Do I want to be famous or do I want to be a great artist? Two different roads to take. Both are fine. You just need to know which one you're doing so that every day when you make a decision,

it's in line with one of those two values. I know I wanted to be an artist. And so I started turning things down immediately that built fame, but didn't actually build my integrity as an artist or as a songwriter. It changed my lifestyle, where I chose to live, who I chose to surround myself in. What does it take to be a great artist? It takes great humility. You constantly have to think you have something to learn. As soon as you think you know it all, you quit performing very well because you quit listening very well. And when you quit listening,

that's the headwaters that feeds our greatness and our mastery. And so I asked myself these things before I got signed, you know, will this make me happier? I just got happy because I developed some mindfulness tools that were helping me with my panic attacks. I was doing good, even though I was living in my car. And what did I need? Did I need a million dollars? I did not. What did I need? I needed to do something that I loved, that made me feel like I was making a difference in the world. And I was thankful for the opportunity to live my passion. So I set up my deal and also looked at fame as like, okay, I don't think fame changes you. It accentuates who you are. So if you're insecure, you're going to get more insecure. It's just gas. It's an accelerator. If you need to show other people that you have value through external means,

it's going to create a bigger hunger in you for that. You're going to be a bigger show-off, a bigger braggart. Nothing's going to make you feel satisfied. So I looked at my career as a very potential trap for somebody with my background because it was going to set me up for failure in a lot of ways unless I was very diligent. And so my job was to learn the craft of being a professional musician, which was a learning curve. But it was also more than anything to make sure I didn't give up on my real goal, which is I want my life to be my best work of art. I don't want my art to be my best work of art. I don't want my art to be my best work of art. If I look back and I say, hey, I was a great songwriter, but a bad person,

I failed. And again, it's just saying, what is my definition of success? And what am I doing every day to ensure that I have success in those categories? There's a story of Gandhi, and he's traveling in England, and a reporter from India comes up, and he says to him, Gandhi, I'm a reporter from India, and do you have a message for your people? And supposedly he grabs a piece of paper, and he scribbles something on it, and he hands it to the reporter, and what he wrote was, my life is my message. That's beautiful. I think that's exactly what Jewel is saying, too. And I think when fame comes, we begin to think that something other than our life, you know, is our message. And I think one of the things she had also talked about is the power of the observer.

And I think it's really hard to tell somebody who's never had money, and I didn't grow up with many means, but to tell somebody who's never had money, like didn't grow up with many means but to tell somebody who's never had money like like don't get caught in this money like initially there's going to be some energy and some path some patterning but can you be observed as if you're um as if you're using your own life as a laboratory so wow let me observe myself getting really attached to this let me observe myself focusing on this more, what happens, and that the pain of noticing that itself becomes the motivation to no longer do it, versus people telling us this or telling us that. The pain of being able to watch ourselves suffer, I feel like is the greatest motivation, internal motivation, to finding ways to end that suffering. So when there's that observer present rather than saying

good or bad we're just beginning to map our process and be aware of our process and how our relationships change and how this changes and for me anyways that's been the most powerful element is that self-awareness and from noticing wow when i do that my hand burns and i did it again and my hand burns. Let me just feel the pain in my hand of that burning. And that itself is the source for whatever correction needs to be made. Okay, guys. I want to honor our time because I promised you guys an hour and we're just a few minutes into that. That being said, I know there's three, four more hours of like really important stuff that you guys have to offer and talk about,

you know, like volumes of insight. And so I got to be like really thoughtful. I do want to know the habits that you guys are employing to be grounded, to be insightful, to reveal wisdom. I want to know what those are. And I also want to understand what is or how do you articulate mastery or living masterpiece? And so maybe we can just, you know, succinctly get to those so that... Well, and I would like to pass my time over to Jewel, my honorable, what do they say in the Congress the congress uh my honorable colleague from um from alaska and i we can we can do our own session later on mike so i would say let's just let the rest of the time is to jewel so however however you want to use it cool can you take a look at maybe jules like

talking about a couple habits and and then we'll talk about a living masterpiece. Okay. So when I was homeless, I realized my brain was addicted to bad habits, shoplifting, panic attacks, fear cycles. And it made me wonder about the addictive nature of the brain and how do we form new habits. We actually have a lot more in common with sea slugs than we realize. We have a binary brain. So we move toward pleasure and we move away pain. And we lay down something called habit loops.

So you can have a stimulation. So let's say, uh, uncertainty will make you feel anxious. And then you'll have a behavior. Let's say you eat when you're anxious and then you have a reward. That's the habit loop. And so the reward might be a short lived dopamine response. That's your habit loop. So I tried to focus on my behavior and replacing a negative behavior with a positive behavior, knowing my brain was inherently built to be addictive, to build habits. And so I began to sort of attacking one at a time that I saw needed changing in my life by using this idea of the habit loop. So if I had anxiety, instead of letting it escalate, or instead of overeating, or instead

of getting angry, or instead of, you name it, I've had about, you know, I've tried a lot of different behaviors. I substituted a good habit, which for me always came back to mindfulness. And so for one instance, for my panic attacks when I was homeless, I played something called the light switch game. So there'd be a stimulation. I would get triggered. I would start having a trauma response, which is actually your brain getting hijacked.

It's fascinating if you've never seen it on a, anybody that's lived through trauma, extreme fear, there's big T trauma and little T trauma. Um, big T traumas, you know, violence, severe physical, sexual abuse, wars, small T is living with, uh, an alcoholic parent living in an unsafe environment that permeates you. So there's big T and little T trauma. So I was getting triggered and I was starting to have panic attacks. And so interrupt them I would play what I called my light switch game where I would look at that habit loop I had a stimulus my anxiety was rising my typical behavior had been to indulge let my brain go there get really scared let my brain get hijacked uh and instead I started inserting these little exercises called this was

called my light switch game, where I would pretend my fear and my anxiety was actually excitement, like butterflies, like something good was about to happen. And I would sit in my car or on my street corner, feel a panic attack coming on, be able to notice it earlier, because my ability to observe and the relationship I'd built with that mindfulness practice. And then I would say, okay, I'm flipping a light switch. I would imagine a light switch in my head. And I would say, this isn't fear. This is anticipation. I'm excited. Something good's going to happen. What good could happen? And it basically put me again in the driver's seat. So my brain didn't hijack me. And that was one of the first habits I really started to re teach myself. And then when I learned my brain was addictive, and that I could use that as a hack, you can pretty much just fix

any habit you want in your life by looking at it going, what are my negative behaviors, and I'm going to substitute it with a positive behavior. And I'm going to do it enough times with enough repetition that I create a new neural pathway. And did you learn this from reading, from working with somebody, from figuring it out on your own? These are things I just figured out on my own. I mean, I did read a lot of books. I read a lot about physics. I loved physics because it made me feel like anything was possible. If a light particle could be in two places at once, I could do something about myself, you know. But a lot of it was just experimentation because I had to see what was working for me.

I didn't have money for therapists. I had no resources. And I was going to end up in jail or dead. And so I started experimenting and going, what makes me feel less anxiety? And I'm going to end up in jail or dead. And so I started experimenting and going, what makes me feel less anxiety? And I'm going to move toward that. What makes me feel more anxiety? I need to move away from that. And this would end up serving me so well in my life. Because if you read in my book, I lost everything in 2003, I lost everything and I had to start all over. And I had been through an incredibly abusive relationship with my mom. And I literally had to do this archaeological dig back to myself.

And this is one of the tools that I used. What makes me anxious, that isn't myself, what makes me feel whole, calm and confident, that's my actual nature. And so I began to develop mindfulness tools based around that, this idea that we're not broken. We just have to do a very loving archaeological dig back to our actual whole real selves. So to answer your second question about mastery, that to me is what mastery is, the willingness to show up every day and refine and refine and refine. What a gift. Your work and the way you can articulate your thirst for coming back home and to be your authentic self is an incredible gift. Not that you are given it, but the gift to others that are interested enough or able or the timing works out where they can hear what you have experienced and come to understand.

And Joel, I want to thank you for your time. I want to thank you for sharing and living in that space of not knowing and trusting and being authentically you. It felt that way, at least during this conversation. So I'm looking forward to connecting with you up at Wisdom 2.0. And I just want to say thank you. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I'm very thankful that it's what I call farmers of light. I have a quote that I end all my emails with that say, we're not in the business of fighting darkness. We are farmers of light. And so we're all trying to grow our own light within ourselves and let that be what inspires other people around us. And anybody, you know, the reason I wrote my book, the reason this is the new chapter of my life is because I don't want anybody to feel like happiness is for privileged people. Being satisfied is for people that have therapists or the right house

or the right spouse. Nobody should let themselves off the hook. Everybody should demand their lives rise to the level that they hope it does. And that really is in your hands. It really takes nothing other than what's in your heart. You have all the tools and that's what you're helping people understand. That's what Soren's helping people understand. There's so many people that are out there to try and help empower people because it doesn't have to do with socioeconomic advantages. It doesn't have to do with our jobs or our careers. It has to do with that journey from our head to our heart.

And then how can people learn, follow? I mean, you're not hard to miss, you know, on the global stage, but where can people specifically go to be part of your journey and to celebrate their own unique journey? I have a website up where I'm starting to share some of the mindfulness tools that I use to create change in my life. That's at JewelNeverBroken.com. JewelNeverBroken.com. And on social media, I am Jew jewel jk on twitter and just jewel on instagram jewel jk and then jewel just jewel not not just you j-e-w-e-l on instagram right

yeah okay cool all right so again jewel thank you looking forward to um seeing it wisdom 2.0 and thank you for all that you've shared. It's fantastic that you have such clarity about your process. And Soren, thank you for the introduction. Thank you for sharing. And I'm looking forward to having an extended time in a podcast with you in the future. So I seriously thank you. Yeah, it's always a pleasure, Mike.

And you know how much I respect your work and how much I'm behind your work and believe in your work. And anything we can do together is always a real pleasure. And so glad that Jewel could join us. 100%. And Wisdom 2.0, I don't think I've said this to you enough. Like Wisdom 2.0, what you've created is amazing. And like seriously amazing and the amount of people that are switched on and have this spiritual energy and want to create change is fantastic so thank you

for including me in your community you're welcome you're welcome and i think for us it's just about like not leaving out any sector you know like we want to include the business leaders the founders of twitter ebay or whatever. They have a place. So do the mindfulness practitioners. So do the sports psychologists. So do the politicians who also want to create change through politics. So do the educators. How do we create a space where we can all bring our wisdom in with the understanding that nobody on their own is going to solve this?

The business leaders are awesome. They have a piece but on their own they can't really address the kind of change and restructure of a society based on mindfulness that um we need to see happen so we we need to join forces so thanks the spirit of wisdom too is definitely about that like let's let's bring all the best of us here to look at how we grow and mature and can really excel both as people, but then also as a, as a nation in a world. Okay. So where can people find out more about you and wisdom 2.0? Uh, they can just Google wisdom 2.0 or go to wisdom to summit or wisdom to

conference, uh, online. And, uh, the information is there. Soren, I love being your friend. Thank you for being a person in my life that represents what's good. So thank you. Thank you. And one of those other questions about habits is community and friendship. I didn't mention it, but just to throw that in. I don't know if there's a better habit than good friends and good people. And you're one of those people in my life, and I appreciate that.

But I feel like that's definitely a habit that doesn't get talked about enough. That's a really cool insight. Yeah. So thank you. That's important. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. And so there's going to be questions for you on our Facebook community page. We call it Finding Mastery Tribe and there's going to be questions for you. So yeah, we'll sort that out in a little bit. So again, Soren, thank you. Thanks so much, Mike. You can also find us at findingmastery.net. And we've built a community there as well. And so findingmastery.net forward slash community. And it's an incredible tribe, so to speak, of people that are supporting and challenging each other on their path to mastery.

So that's happening. You can find me at Twitter, which is at Michael Gervais. And it's Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, Gervais, G-E-R-V-A-I-S. And then Instagram is at Finding Mastery. And then lastly, these podcasts are long. They're long form, trying to understand the insight and wisdom of people takes time. And if you want a shorter version, we also have a Minutes on Mastery, which is basically three minutes and under the nuggets and gems and insights and pearls of wisdom from those that have been featured in these conversations.

So iTunes also has Minutes on Mastery, which is digestible, bite-sized pearls of wisdom. Okay, all the best. Thank everybody for being part of this community. And if you're new, welcome. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

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