Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Soren Gordhamer, Wisdom 2.0 Founder and Host

Episode Date: February 20, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Soren Gordhamer, the founder and host of Wisdom 2.0.He's a friend, incredibly purposeful with his life efforts, and what he's created is amazing.Wisdom 2.0 brings together leaders in technology, including the founders of Facebook, Twitter, and Paypal, along with wisdom teachers, entrepreneurs, activists and others to explore how we live consciously and wisely in a digital-rich age.Prior to Wisdom 2.0, Soren taught mindfulness programs to a variety of groups around the world, including youth in New York City’s juvenile halls, trauma workers in Rwanda, teachers in Nigeria, and employees at Google.He spent a year walking through parts of the United States, India, Pakistan, and Japan as a part of the Global Walk for a Livable World and he later founded The Lineage Project, a New York City-based nonprofit that offers awareness-based practices to at-risk and incarcerated teens.Soren cares about helping individuals and groups live with greater mindfulness and purpose, especially in our technology rich age._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I think in the end it's really friendships and those bonds that I think matter the most. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And not people that are writing about it, but living it. People that are in the trenches working to figure it out. How do they understand the nuances of their craft? How are they living with purpose and intent and relentlessly working to refine those skills? So we want to understand their psychological framework, which is really how they see the world and how they explain themselves and events in it.

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and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Soren Gordhammer. He's a friend. He's incredibly purposeful with his life efforts. And what he's created is amazing. He's the founder and the host of Wisdom 2.0.

Wisdom 2 brings together leaders in tech, including the founders of Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn. It goes down the list, along with wisdom teachers and entrepreneurs. And the whole idea is to explore how to live consciously and wisely in a digital rich age. And then prior to Wisdom 2.0, Soren taught mindfulness programs to a variety of groups around the world, including youth in New York City's juvenile halls, trauma workers in Rwanda, and teachers in Nigeria, and employees at Google. I mean, talk about a swath of the human experience. And he even spent a year walking through parts of the United States,

India, Pakistan, and Japan as part of the global walk for a livable world. And then he later founded the Lineage Project. And it was a New York City-based nonprofit that offers awareness-based practices to at-risk and incarcerated teens. Soren cares, and he cares about helping people and groups live with greater mindfulness and purpose, especially in our tech-rich age. And in Soren's words, technology on its own is going to make us more connected, but I don't know if it's going to make us more happy. We need to not only look at external technologies, but we need to look at the internal technologies of the mind, body, and heart. And we really have to marry the two. Isn't that cool? Okay. So with that, let's jump right into this

conversation with my friend, Soren. Soren, how are you? I'm great. It's really good to be with you, Michael. You know, I can't tell you how much I great. It's really good to be with you, Michael. You know, I can't tell you how much I enjoy the time that we get to spend together. And because I start with a story here. The first time we met, it was like, okay, let's connect. Let's, you know, normal kind of ways to do that. And you flew down to, you were in Los Angeles. And it just unfolded, right? The relationship, the conversation just unfolded in this really remarkable way. And then we extended that into one of your businesses, Wisdom 2.0, which we'll get to in a minute.

And that just feels like how you do relationships. You just show up, you're present, and they unfold. And it was beautiful for me to be part of it. So I just wanted to say, you're present and they unfold. And it was beautiful for me to be part of it. So I just wanted to say thank you for that. The beginnings. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. And then also like, I'm excited to see where this conversation goes. Me too. Me too. Glad we can finally make it happen. And I remember seeing an ESPN article of you and the Seahawks and, and thinking, I got to meet that guy. I definitely need to meet that guy.

So somehow I was able to get your email address from that article and really, really happy I did. And I love it when the heart connection leads. You meet somebody and you just show up, innocent, curious, open, not trying to make anything particular happen, not trying to create some project or agenda, but just connect as humans. And I find that not only the best friendships come from that, but also if there is a project to do together or there is some overlap, you've set such a good foundation just by being together and being vulnerable and being open and connecting just for the sake of connecting. So I love it when that happens, too. So you're one of the primary stakeholders in mindfulness, definitely in America.

And I'm not sure your influence internationally. But from my vantage point, you know, being in the States here that you take up a lot of space in this world, and the community and it is eloquent in the way that you do it and it is really strong and big and you've done it by gathering people from i think the philosophy that you just shared you know so can just to set some context before we go like into early days in your life. Let's just set some context of how and why you started Wisdom 2.0. Sure, sure. One was I was at a time in my life where I had lost a job. I was working for Richard Geer's foundation at the time and it ended. A marriage was ending from my first wife. And I had a lot of uncertainty and unknown. It was like the world that I had created was just kind of falling out from underneath me.

I couldn't sustain that world. And I remember I was living in New Mexico at the time and I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to take a year off and kind of see what emerges, give space, see what wants to happen. And it became really clear to me, Mike, that the challenges of

our day and age aren't going to be solved by any one domain, like the spiritual teachers, the wisdom teachers, they might have a piece, but they don't have the answer. The tech leaders, I mean, they're brilliant, they're amazing, they're creative, left on their own, they're not going to figure this out. The psychologists, the researchers, super important, but they only just have a piece two. And there's some way we need to come together and offer all of our pieces and then see if there might be some kind of sane, sustainable, livable way that we can create a culture that's happy, that's thriving, that's connected to the earth, that has meaningful relationships. So Wisdom 2.0 kind of came about through that sense that we really need to bring people together and people need to be

able to share their wisdom with each other. And we need it from every different domain. We need it from the Pete Carrolls of the world and the Michael Gervais of the world. We need it from the founders of Twitter and Facebook. We need it from the spiritual teachers, Eckhart Tolle or whoever. And that it's a time to come together. And I didn't know anybody in the tech world at the time. I was living in a little trailer in New Mexico. But I just got this sense that it's time to come together. And technology on its own is going to make us more connected.

But I don't know if it's going to make us more happy. We need to not only look at external technologies, but we need to look at the internal technologies of the mind, body, and heart. And we really have to marry the two. Oh my goodness. I mean, from that thought, you've created something very special. Now I want to go back just one frame though, is that two things were ending in your life. And i want to know what led to them ending and then i want to know before you answer that though um how did you say like i just want to have some space and see what unfolds like where did that come from great which one you are the first yeah that second one first yeah yeah uh that's a great so i was listening and reading a lot of Eckhart Tolle at the time when I was in New Mexico.

And one of the things he said was, he said, don't ask what you want to do. Ask what the world wants to do through you. And that really just drew me. Like, what is it that the world wants to move through me? Because I always thought I had to kind of figure this shit out by myself. And what if I took space and tried to listen to what the world wanted to do through me? Like that was just really fascinating to me. I didn't have any money at the time. I had $500 rent that I was paying for living this trailer in this little town of about 900 people. So I knew I had a credit card that had like $10,000 worth of

money I could put on it. I had a little money, but I was pretty much like, you know what? It's just not worth working right now. I would rather take the risk and kind of live off the credit card and whatever I have and see what emerges in this space. Like it just, I don't know. I just felt like I need time. I need, I need to create this space. I could live super simply. I think I lived like on a thousand dollars a month, 500 rent, you know, 500 for food and gas and other things. And if I can just live super simply, I can give myself some space and see what emerges. So I think it was just this feeling of resonance with that, that saying, and wanting to see if I could create some space to see what happens. And it's

so funny, Michael, because when the idea came for wisdom 2.0, people say like, Oh, how do you it was like a breeze, it was walking in when a breeze hits you, and you're like, Oh, that's a nice breeze. That was it. I'm like walking, and all of a sudden something comes like, like, oh, that's a nice breeze. That was it. I'm like walking and all of a sudden something comes. I'm like, oh, right, that's it. So it wasn't so much, you know, I feel like we receive things. I don't know if we create, I think we actively create things, but I also feel like we receive things. And I think sometimes the best things are the universe is kind of looking for somebody to take on a project. And if we're open and available, sometimes they'll give us that project.

Wow. All right. What is your spiritual framework? And then I know that I want to ask about the ending of two things, but as an eloquent stitch, how do you understand how the world works? When you say the universe, what does that mean to you? That's great. I feel like there's an intelligence in the world works. Like when you say the universe, what does that mean to you? That's great. I feel like there's an intelligence in the world and you'd call it all different kinds of names, you know, but like there's a magical intelligence to the world. And I mean, you see that when an athlete's just in the zone, like how is he or she doing it? You know, it's

them, but it's also bigger than them. Or somebody comes up with some amazingly creative idea or, you know, somebody does something from their heart that's just kind of beyond explainable. And so for me that there is this, you know, we can call it the force if you like Star Wars or we can call it universal intelligence. But there is this intelligence that's out there that I believe is working with us to wake up and to be of service. And I don't know. I like to say universal intelligence just because I don't know of a better phrase. But I definitely feel like in my better moments, I'm connected to something bigger than me. It's it's both Soren and it's bigger than Soren. And it's the most fascinating, amazing, perplexing thing, because if I try to force it to happen, it doesn't happen. But I definitely feel like there's an intelligence that's kind of a part of us and bigger than us that's working

with us. And the people who are able to kind of create the most beauty in the world, whether it's an artist or an athlete, I feel like are tapping into that source. They might not be able to kind of create the most beauty in the world, whether it's an artist or an athlete, I feel like are tapping into that source. They might not be able to tap into it all the time. Like an athlete might just be able to tap into it in a few moments in a game. But I think that force is a part of nature, a part of life, and we can grow slowly to be able to learn from it and work with it. And so there's lots of names for this. I would imagine that you would agree with that.

Yahweh, God, Shiva. I would imagine that you'd say, yeah, there's lots of names for it. Now, all that being said, you're using, I think like Carl Jung called it the collective consciousness. Right. Okay. So when you're talking about it, are you imagining that this intelligence, this force that you're talking about, that there's a grand design to it or it is more chaotic? And so that's me pivoting from something I like to think about. Like when people say there's a God and I say, okay, do you imagine the God, your God being passive or active? Right. So an active God is like, hey, I want Soren to meet Mike and Soren, I want you to have that kind of little spark and follow up on it. Yeah.

That's your job. Follow up on it. Yeah, you know, that's your job, follow up on it. And then, hey, Mike, you know, it'd be really great when Soren reaches out and, you know, you guys spend some time together. Like, that's an active, okay? Passive is like, no, listen, I gave you your DNA. I gave you kind of the parents that you're going to have. And the rest is up to you now, you know? Like, so when you imagine it, and it could be something different than that

doesn't have to be binary between one of those two choices but like how are you imagining it chaotic or is there a grand design uh can there be something in the middle of course there can be you know it is harder to argue that but yeah i mean i approach it just with a lot of mystery and and don't know like i approach it as like, I noticed this thing happening. I don't understand it. It's freaking wild to me. And there's an aspect of life that's mysterious and unexplainable. And I bow to it and I'm mesmerized by it. And I also know that the more I'm just fully present in my life in this moment, and the less I'm trying to manipulate life, the less I'm trying to, I don't know,

use life to kind of get some agenda passed, the more I seem to be able to access it. So to me, it can be dangerous too, because you're like, oh, I'm just going to trust and everything's going to work out. And I'm like, no, not always at all. You're going to get lessons, and trusting might bring you really difficult, challenging lessons and a lot of heartache and a lot of pain. And at the same time, I definitely feel like there is some kind of intelligence that can guide us, but it doesn't guide us towards necessarily pleasance or even success, but it guides us towards learning. So I don't know if I have that much of a developed kind of philosophy around it.

I just know that in moments of my life, I've experienced it and I'm continuing awe of it and I'm continuing to bow to it and try to be of service to it. And for me, the real practice in that is being as present as we can for each moment and trying to listen as best we can to what in that moment is calling us, what in that moment is of service, what in that moment wants to come through us. I kind of like to think of it as coming through us, right? So it's like, what is it that wants to come through us? So I wish I had a better answer. But I can say I'm in complete awe of it, and a complete mystery to me. And yet I've experienced it enough to know that there's something there. And how often do you practice and train and condition, literally, I would call

it your mind to be present? Like, is that a 20 minute a day thing that you're doing? Or is it 10,000 times a day training? You know, like, how are you organizing it right now? And I know you've sat on a pillow a lot. You and I, the most recent deep training that I did was with you. Yeah. And John and Will Kabat-Zinn, or John Kabat-Zinn and his son Will, where we sat for how many? It's like two days, mainly just sitting meditation and walking meditation with a few meals in between. And it's powerful to stop and just to go inward. There's a quote that I really love from Rumi who says, work in the invisible world just as hard as you work in the visible world. Work in the invisible world just as hard as you work in the visible world.

And the invisible world to me is the inner domain. And it's what makes the external world work out in so many different ways. Because if we're stressed or not in balance internally, most likely whatever we're trying to create externally is just not going to go so well. But if internally we've done the work, we're clear, we know ourselves, we know our triggers, that tends to bring out the best externally. And I love that quote because I think it's easy to just focus on the external and we forget about the best externally. And I love that quote, because I think it's easy to just focus on the external and we forget about the inner domain. So to answer your question, you know, I tried this morning, I meditated for 20 minutes. But I don't feel like you have to meditate or it's something every person can do. I, I definitely feel like reminding ourselves every moment of every day that we can, that we're alive in this moment.

And this is the only moment we know, you know, any, any idea that there's future moments that we're going to live throughout the day, or we're going to live till tomorrow. I mean, those are just fantasies, really. I mean, we never know what's going to happen. And, but we do know that this moment we're alive and this moment is here for us. And I think to whatever extent I can remind myself throughout the day or your community here can remind themselves throughout the day, I feel like we live more of our moments of our life. Like Anderson Cooper, when he interviewed John Kabat-Zinn, he said one of the biggest realizations he got is he realized the more present he is, he actually lives longer. And he was asked about that. And he said, well, you know, before I started practicing, my year would go by like that,

it would be gone. And now I actually experienced more moments in my life. So it's as if I'm living longer, not by having my body live longer, necessarily, although that can help too. But just by being present for more moments in my life. And I feel like that to me is, you know, really the practice is how do we remind ourselves to do that? And for some people that's music and surfing, you know, there's a lot of different activities that kind of tap us into that source. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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the way that you say, like, it actually moves through me. So it's not my potential. I just am like a vessel, if you will, or I'm a deliverer of something greater. Okay. So I think, I think you and I have a little bit of a different look there, but still the mechanism is the same, which is the only way that, and this is me talking the only way, and that's a big phrase only that we're going to understand potential is by stringing together present moment experiences and so that's like this moment in this moment in this moment and then if you can get enough of those to expand out then we get a glimpse of what's possible because we were by definition like fully present at our very best totally and then and then that does feel like it's not coming from me, but it is a tapping into.

Totally. And you're involved. And I definitely also want to say that, you know, people who have like really strong, some people, this doesn't work for me necessarily, but I know people who have really strong goals and the goals help them live more present moments in their life. And so it's nothing wrong to have those goals or have those things you're working towards, particularly if they're adding more presence. I think sometimes the danger is we're always looking for, you know, in the future, I'm going

to be this. And then we get that. It's like, oh, no, I'm going to be this next thing. Like, if I had friends who created big companies and they, you know, go public, I sell them for hundreds of millions of dollars. And within a week, they're trying to create their next big company. And I'm like, dude, just enjoy your life for a little bit. Just kind of chill out. So there can be this thing where we're always reaching for this future. We're always thinking we're not enough. And once this happens, once my book is published or once I get this. And I think, and I think there's a danger in that, but I think that, you know, coming back to like mastery and goals and things, I definitely think there's a way of harnessing that and still working towards achieving the things that we're called to achieve in this life. And that could be, you know, being the best athlete you can be is, is, could be part of what your life's purpose is. And then when we talk about linking moments and stringing moments together to figure out purpose or potential or expressing oneself in the most authentic, creative, grounded way, what happens when you're saying there's no real bet that tomorrow or the next moment

is going to work? That being said, you've had 40 some years of your life. I've had 40 some years where like it has worked out. So it, it feels like it's a really good bet that we're going to finish this conversation. It's a pretty good bet. We're going to finish this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense to, to be afraid that it might not finish that conversation.

I think there's, i think there's i think there's different domains of that we have they're all working with on on different levels right so on one level it's totally true that we never know from one moment to the next what's going to happen that that for me sharpens my sword to be in it more often yes okay and some people need um near-death experiences they need something really heavy to go, whoa, okay, this could be ripped away from you. And I fall into that too. Like I think about a phase in my life where I ran into some hard times with my wife and it was like, uh-oh. And then I was like, well, I got to do better now.

And so it reminded me to be in it, to be fully in it now. Yeah. Yeah. And we all have those different things to remind us but i definitely think you know reflection on death like none of us get out of this alive we only have so many heartbeats left you know that's hard to argue with i know that there's engineers and technology leaders trying to figure out how we can you know move our consciousness at least can move beyond death. But for the moment, you know, we only have so many heartbeats left. And how do we want to use those heartbeats? And I love that. Yeah. And then we can bring it down to 1440. Right. There's only 40 moments a day. So how are you going to spend those where, you know, 800, 900 of them were sleeping, you know? So, okay. That being said, you just said something

really important, which is what happens after death? What do you imagine? I don't, do you know? I have no idea. I have no idea. I know you spent a lot of time looking in. Okay. All right.

So I, I find out all that, you know, you make that promise. I make that promise. I have a sense of consciousness continuing in, forms, but definitely I don't know. And I'm also amazed that such an impactful, important event in someone's life, you know, we know so little about. Yeah. Okay. And then what if when you die, I'm just, let's play this out. You die, your physical form is done.

And like, there's nothing. You get a brief moment where you get this moment that they're like, dude, you know, I'm sorry. That's it. Yeah. But what a great gift to have had. So you wouldn't be bummed. You wouldn't be like, damn, I was waiting for this. I don't know who I could be upset with.

Oh, my God. Okay, good. You know what I love about our friendship? Look at this from just a human experience. This is an amazing experience we get to take this. I mean, who knows what happens or who we are. But life is incredible. I mean, just the fact that we have these bodies at work and that they digest and that they see

and that they have potential to love. I mean, it's a crazy, crazy experiment that we get to participate in. And however long it lasts or whatever happens next, you know, when I'm in my clearest moment, I'm always just amazed, you know, at this human experience that we have. And whatever is next, yeah, I don't know.

It sounds like you don't care that much, but you're prepared for now. You're just preparing for the next now. Yeah. Now, if you told me I had a terminal disease and I only had a month to live, that could all go out the window. If you played that experiment, how would you – I want to get to the early stuff that you had. But how would you get to – how would you organize your life if you knew you only had a couple days to live? Well, I think there's different pieces. So if I only had a couple pieces to live, I would call every close friend I have and thank them for their presence in my life and what they've given me and how much I appreciate them. And I would spend as much of it as possible with my family.

But I would definitely try to call every person who's dear to me and tell them how much I've loved them and appreciated them and what they meant to me. And, um, I think, you know, in the end, when you look at all said and done and our bank account, whatever our bank account is, or our success account, um, friendships, the quality of connections, the people we've loved, the people we've let love us, um, are huge. And we've probably seen the same studies I've seen that says that, uh, you know, they're looking at all these, what's the best diet for longevity? And it turns out meaningful community is one of the biggest things you can have to have a lot of successes that you can put by your name. I think in the end, it's really friendships and those bonds that I think matter the most. If I knew that, I would definitely call everybody who's dear to me and thank them for what they've given to me. You know, okay, so I'm going to pull back out for a minute because that is why Wisdom 2.0 is what it is, right?

It's a massive community of really switched on people that are equally interested in the internal and external. You know, you got tech, you got researchers, you got scientists, you got psychologists, you've got mystic gurus, you know, you got, you got the whole gamut of people, but it is built out of the value of internal versus, you know, not versus internal, as well as your philosophy, what you just said, community, friendships, connections. So like if, when I zoom way out to you, Soren, I'm like, okay,

the courage from a sense of brokenness to go. And, you know, I don't know if I'm being too extreme there, but like, you know. Yeah, it was broken. Broken, lost. Yeah, broken, lost, almost broke. And you say, okay, I'm not going to get in the rat race and grind, I'm actually going to follow this little gem that I've been listening to, which is, let's see if I can connect, almost reverse engineer what the world or the universe wants to move through me. And then like this easy breeze that happens, you show up and you're like,

oh, look, I'm going to build a community. Well, that's really organic because I love people. Oh, this really is cool because it's about the internal and external. I've been vibing with Rumi for a minute too. Okay, so there it is. That's it. Yeah, that's it. You explained it really well. And I think that people are also longing to be a part of that community.

Like when I would reach out to some of the early in the days, I'd reach out to founder of Twitter, founder of Facebook. I'd be like, you know, I'm doing this conference. And what was amazing to me was how much some of them long to talk about this because often they're just talked about like, you know, the quarterly reports and who's going to beat who. And yet when, you know, they're invited to talk about something that's meaningful, like how do we develop compassion in a digital age? It's always interesting how many people are actually drawn to things if they speak to their heart. And I think one of the things that helps, Mike, is to whatever extent we can do it, particularly to all your listeners out there, if there's some listeners going through some really hard times, for me, I could frame it as one way, you know, when I was

in that situation, one, I was, I was a completely, I was a loser. I had nothing to show for myself. I had lost the job, lost the marriage, you know, didn't have any money, um, living alone. So that's kind of one frame. Another frame is, wow, I'm being initiated into something. I'm life is putting me through an enormous, intense, amazing initiation. And this is, this is not negative against me. This is actually something that's being given to me so that I can clear away everything that's blocking me. And I think to the extent we can try to look at those hardships and reframe them not as things that show that we're a loser or that we're worthless, but actually things that are calling us into an initiation, I feel like we can get the teachings and the message and endure them much better and hopefully kind of get to the other side of them. I love the word initiation. And, you know, the science is really clear that if you want to develop resiliency or any of those kinds of traits that stand up to the test of science, and then in the amphitheater of high performance, like

you got, you got to have that to bend and be flexible, this, that, and the other to stay the course long enough, because if you're going to really play the long game you're going to face down some hard stuff okay totally right now you could you could do many other models in this world and there's no judgment about it and you could go you could you could i could die like a um or get to the end of my life and like q hefner right and serially date 24 years you know and. But hopefully that was great for him. But then there's a cost, right? And the cost is like, okay, do you ever really get to know the wisdom part of life if your partners are always young? Okay. It sounds like I'm knocking them, whatever. I'm not meaning to do it that way, but to your point is that the initiation, when I hear that, I think about the value of hardening principles Mother Teresa to Gandhi, whomever it might be,

like their principles were hardened. Like they knew what they knew and they knew that it was true. And when they did question it, it was like, you know, that process hardened it even more. And I don't know if when you hear that, if you have a reaction to it or you go, yeah, I like it or no, no, no, it's not like that for me. Well, I think that there's a couple of things. One is I'm often amazed at how the stories I tell myself are not true. So I definitely feel like there's a place for values like this is what I value. I value human connection and I value friendship and I'm going to live based on those values. But I've also been some of the most difficult, challenging environments you could in New York City and work with kids, you know, 14, 15. And sometimes, you know, they're in for attempted murder or even murder. Like they were in for some really hard things. And was this before your marriage ended or after? This was before I was living in New York City. Okay. So you're

already into a meditation practice prior to things going haywire. It's not like – it wasn't like all of a sudden things were really bad and then you found meditation. I got interested in meditation when I was a teenager in Lubbock, Texas. I grew up in a really conservative town in Lubbock, Texas and found meditation just through suffering and pain and witnessing my parents' divorce. Okay, hold on, hold on. We got to go back now. This is the time to do that. So where'd you grow up? Lubbock, Texas. It's a little town in West Texas. Texas Tech University is there. And what was it like growing up? So I had four brothers and sisters and we were all just like this band of, um, uh, uh,

how do I describe it? Like we played a lot of sports. Um, we were not really accepted in the town cause we didn't go to church and we were from Michigan. So we were always a little strange and oddball. And you know, at my house it was just chaos. We would wrestle and have games in the house and you could break pretty much anything because everything was from a thrift store. So I remember my parents just let us go crazy.

And so the Christians in Lubbock, Texas at the time were like, stay away from this family. Do not go over to their house. They don't go to church, and it's just insane. Because you're tall and lanky. How tall are you? I'm 6'4". Yeah. 6'4".

And so I can imagine your legs flying around in your living room. Like, okay. So we were often rejected by the community. And we had some friends, but we were just an odd group. But we got our value and our sense of identity through sports. So we would win championships all the time, all of us, every one of the kids were like, our teams would generally win the city championships more often than not. So we kind of got our sense of identity through sports. And then

when I was about 14, 15, my parents, well, my mom kind of went through this midlife crisis, nervous breakdown. And so she ended up moving and living somewhere else. So we were raised by my dad the last number of years from like 14 to 19. And that was a huge shift in my life and just brought a lot of grief and pain. I didn't know grief and pain before then. I knew like this wonderful, happy family with two loving parents. You know, we get the championship trophies every year. And that opened up this whole other domain of grief and pain and longing. And so that kind of launched me on a spiritual quest or spiritual interest.

And my dad was a psychologist at the university who also had a strong interest in Buddhism and Eastern religion. So he kind of gave me some meditation tapes and meditation talks. dad was a psychologist at the university who also had a strong interest in buddhism and eastern religion so he kind of gave me some meditation tapes and meditation talks um back on on um there was this like pre-cd the little you know cassette tapes kind of things i got interested in meditation as a teenager and so years later when i was older and in my like like 20s early early 30s, I wanted to go back and teach teenagers, I've always been drawn to working with teenagers, because that's kind of when I got turned on. And then, okay, college.

So I went to one year of college and was totally bored. I went to my local university, Texas Tech, totally bored. And then I decided to go and live at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, where my father had lived for part of his, or part, he would go and visit every year for about five days. And so I'd heard about it. And so I went there and I went from taking like economics and business classes to going to Esalen. And I, the first month I took intuitive um, intuitive reading, uh, a month long course in how to give intuitive psychic readings. Um, you know, Michael Murphy was on the podcast and we had a couple of like a rich, uh, yeah. What an amazing human. Yeah. What? Yeah.

And to show what a life can be in a long life can be. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So I lived there. And then I remember I lived there for about a year. And if you've ever been to Esalen, it's right off Highway 1. And you walk down this pretty steep hill. And then all of a sudden, you're in the Esalen community. And there's a gate you have to go through. And so I lived there for about a year.

And then I gave away almost everything I owned. And I put whatever I still had in a backpack and I walked up to the top of the hill on my own on my last day there. And I just like stood at the top of the hill and was like, do I want to go left or right? Um, and I'm like, I think I'll start walking right. And then, so I just started walking, um, towards LA.A. just because I wanted that experience of like being out without an agenda, with just being in life. Right. Like because I was just I've always kind of been drawn to that. And when I was a high school student, I used to want to walk from Texas to California. And I used to draw this little character on scribble in class, this little character walking

down the highway on it by himself. And so, uh, my dad convinced me to not do that when I was a, a high school person, but I've always been kind of drawn to that kind of life. So, um, after Esalen, I, I ended up doing a lot of walking and hitchhiking and traveling that way. Um, yeah, I mean, it sounds like you just kind of wandered a little bit but i mean you carried this through india through pakistan japan right like you did this well there was a three and a half year global environmental walk that was going on i was on it for about a year in different parts of the world um and it was particularly in asia um we had no idea where we'd sleep from one night to the next. You

just know you're walking up this road and, and somehow you're going to find food and somehow you're going to find shelter. But generally we had no idea where we're going to stay or what was going to happen next. And, um, I'm sorry, how did you, how did you deal with that? Because I'm listening to you right now and I'm it's easy for me to go okay and kind of categorize it like hippie wanderer but there's another part of me that's like no imagining me doing that like i never had that courage i never had that courage to abandon the planning and abandon like the true not knowing of what's next. So dude, you're way better at this than I've ever been. I was 23. I didn't have much to let go of.

Yeah. I mean, I got some of that earlier days where it was reckless, but not to the point where it was, I don't know. I think we all want to be tested and we all have different ways to test ourselves, right? So for me, that was just the way to test myself. What were you testing? That's a great question. I was testing if I had nothing, could I figure it out? Why did you want to test that? I think, that's't know, I always just grew up and it's like, what would I do or be if I didn't have

a place to live? Like, could I really make it? For some reason, that's always been a central question in my life. Like, is all of this just a pretend to keep me from experiencing, not knowing what to do? You know, is having a house and having a car. They're just like crutches that make me not experience, not push myself to a certain edge. So I think I just always had that question from a young age, like, could I actually make it if I didn't have anything to rely on? And if I was just by myself walking down the road, like, would life actually meet me? You know, I really thought about, but would life, could I actually tap into something to survive? And I think we're all drawn in our own way to test ourselves, right? For some people, that's a marathon or Ironman or, or, um, asking a woman

out for a date or a guy who knows, right? Like there's all these things that are, that we do to test ourselves. And for me, um, being on the road and being out in the open without money, without a place to stay, that for some reason was what drew me to kind of tap. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have

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at age 23, you've got $200 million in the bank account and just about every person on the planet knows your name. Ah, yeah. Well, both are hugely challenging. I think the latter from the friends I know or the people I know who've gotten either huge wealth or huge fame were very early on and you never know who to trust. And everybody is asking you to borrow money or asking you for something. That is an experience that I didn't have. And the few people I know who have something like that is incredibly, incredibly hard. And how they find a way to navigate is kind of beyond me, actually.

The fact that people have confined their way through there and remain somewhat sane. Um, there was a guy I was talking to recently, young guys nominated for the Academy Academy award recently. And, you know, all of a sudden, you know, kind of was like nobody. And all of a sudden we kind of became somebody and, um, or, or, you know, other friends who just mess around with some app or something, or some social network, and then all of a sudden it's worth billions, and their life changes so dramatically. I think that's tremendously challenging too,

and I would not ask for that, and yet at the same time, it's a growth opportunity. Yeah, you stay consistent with your approach, it sounds like. You either go crazy and you think it's real, or you develop a spiritual path. As I see it, there's no other way to do it. Your ego either is like, great, bring it on. I'll have a new person every night, whatever. I'm just going to run with it.

Or you develop a spiritual path. So let's go upstream really quickly. What, what are we doing here? Pretty intense question. What are we doing on the planet? Well, I don't know. Yeah. Like, what are we doing? Like what, like, okay, we're in this conversation. We could go micro or go, go big macro yeah what are we doing i don't know i do know that that if i look at um i was actually just at a um a retreat with a shaman um person um some this last week actually in chile of all places and he was talking about you know how long humans have been on the planet and then also how long

bacteria has been on the planet and the bacteria how long bacteria has been on the planet. And the bacteria has been around just for like so, so, so much longer. And then he asked us, he's like, are we humans that have bacteria in us or did the bacteria create us just to be able to move around? You know, like we might not be who we think we are. And I do feel like there's some kind of mystery and experiment that's going on, and I don't understand it. But what I can begin to focus on is what makes it the most rewarding for me? What gives me the greatest sense of connection, of purpose, of love? And can I live my life as aligned with that as possible? So for example, human connection, human friendship,

when I have that, it feels good to me. It feels like my heart feels right. So I want to prioritize that in my life. I want to prioritize time with friends. I want to prioritize time in nature because it feels like it's on path. It feels nourishing. And so I don't know some of the bigger questions, but I do think we can each look at our life and say like, what for me feeds me, what for me nourishes me and not just, you know, the body, but also the heart and the soul and the spirit, like, and by trusting that and by following that, um, you know, the next steps will emerge. But I definitely think if we look at from a, like a much larger thing, humans haven't been here very long, and who knows how long we'll last. This experiment might last thousands and thousands of more years, or it might last a couple hundred years.

And ecologically, there's a lot going on. Of course, it might argue that the experiment won't last as long, maybe, as we would like. But I definitely feel like there's an amazing capacity of humans and we have incredible ingenuity and there's some huge experiment going on. I wish I understood. I wish I could answer that better, but I do feel like what that brings about in me is really trying to focus on what is it that nourishes me and can I connect to some deeper source so that I can be guided in my life by that

source and not get to my end of my life and be like, shit, what was that about? I never actually stopped to look inside. I never actually stopped to enjoy. I never actually experienced gratitude. And now I have to say goodbye to everybody and everything. And I was always running, racing. I was always, I've never stopped to just be. And so I don't know the bigger story, but I know that like, I want to live a life well lived

and that's what I'm focused on. And then for people that are beginners or people that are, have been practicing for a long time, like you, how, you can answer this multiple ways I would imagine, but how would you want to challenge people or sharpen their sword a little bit, so to speak, for a deeper internal exploration? And I'm avoiding, I'm stammering because I don't want to say teach us how to meditate yeah but well this is what i say i say there there's an inner domain and this inner domain needs to be tended to and that this inner domain is gonna determine much more of your true happiness than anything externally that could ever happen to you you can have all the success in the world and, and be completely neurotic and, and, and completely, um, ungrateful, right. And,

and constantly worried about losing it. Like, so, so there's an inner domain, the inner domain needs tending and the inner domain will reflect more of what you experience as happiness than anything in the external domain. And it needs tending to, and however you wish to tend to it, it's up to you. And that could take so many different forms. But if we don't tend to that, everything else is going to not likely give us the satisfaction that we want it to give. Is that good enough? To my standards? It's beautiful i mean yeah like i'm joking about standards because you spent your whole life

trying to organize it in a way to say that sentence and that is um that's not lost on me that being said like when we get into the mechanics of it how do you practice it when you sit down in your yeah so there's there's um well you had mentioned john cabot zinner there who has some great books and audio tapes on meditation i've i've gotten a lot from technot han who's a buddhist teacher who who also has written a lot about meditation um yeah um so there's some amazing teachers out there that I would encourage people to read if they're interested in that particular path. What I try and do, Mike, is I try and have some time each day where I go inward and I just focus on my breath and I feel my body

and I feel the sensations in my body. And I just kind of invite myself to be present in the moment to whatever extent I can. I close my eyes. I, you know, it's not about taking in messages or responding to messages. It's like we spent all of our day often, you know, responding and, and, and, um, communicating and, and constantly kind of pinged and pinging. And it just really helps to have some time each day where we turn all that off. It's, it's not about doing, it's really helps to have some time each day where we turn all that off. It's not about doing. It's really about being. And the most creative, amazing people I know are people who spend time each day tending to that inner world.

And so it doesn't mean that you're going to be less effective in the external world. I would quite argue just the opposite. By giving yourself that 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever you can take. You're nurturing something, you're feeding something, you're watering something that's going to help you throughout the day. So I like to focus on my body, on my sensations, on my breath, on coming back to the present moment. And then that's what I do. And then I try to spend some point each day. I love trees. I don't know why. I mean, some people love oceans. I love trees. Uh, and I try and spend some time each day in the trees and I, I can't explain what happens, but when I'm with big trees,

I just, I feel my place on earth. I feel like I belong. I feel the sense of belonging. I love, I love the, my breath and the smell of the trees. So I try to walk in the woods every day with my dogs and just take in the life force that's in the woods. Um, so those are kind of my two main practices. Um, everything made sense until you got weird with the trees. I don't understand it. My wife's like, I was like, I don't understand it either. For me, it's definitely the ocean. I'm a better human when I'm connected to the ocean. It's bizarre.

But there's something about it. I think we each have that. Some people, maybe it's singing every day or it's jogging every day. But whatever it is, I feel like it needs to connect us to source in whatever way you know it that that does like if we're jogging five miles a day and we're not present in those five miles you know it's I don't know how helpful it is but if we're jogging those five miles or feeling our body we're feeling our breath we're looking around outside or you know we're taking in the environment to me that's that's the difference is

can we do these activities in ways that that really nourish us internally as well okay so back to your life in shambles right well so what led to that here you are meditating traveling exploring spending time in the inner world and you're broke you have just lost the love of your life and you don't know what to do in your life so like what led to that um i think there was something else for me to step into and this was i was i look back now you know there was something there was like a turn that i needed to make in my life and this these conditions falling apart were allowing me to this great zen phrase it says now that the barn has burned down i can see the moon um and i think sometimes in life the barn burns down you know the things that we take for granted i can't i want to know what you

were doing that led it to burn down and maybe maybe like nothing but i'm wondering if you can look back and be like you know i was selfish uh i i made a mistake in who i chose to spend my time with i yeah it's interesting i don't see it maybe i'm in maybe i'm in denial i don't see it like that i don't i mean i definitely you know if i my, my marriage, I definitely wished I had been more patient. I wished I had kind of had more quality time together. I definitely thought I could have been a better husband in many different ways and, and wished I had kind of prioritized the relationship in ways that I wasn't. Um, and at the same time, it didn't, it felt like we had grown apart and it felt like we were moving in different directions and the same with work. Um, I felt like I wasn't really of greatest use in that

role that I was in. Like it wasn't my, it's kind of served for a while, but it, once I look at kind of where I went from that, I realized like, wow, I'm really glad I didn't that job today because it wasn't, it wasn't my greatest contribution. So I look back at it and I definitely feel like there's lessons, but I also feel like, um, things are taken away because there's something else that's ahead. Um, so I hope that to the listeners doesn't feel like I'm in, in denial around that um no you know it sounds like it feels like to me like when you ask a healthy person to describe like why a true narcissist behaves a certain way it's like i don't i don't get it like it's i don't understand how it works and i'm asking you like you know almost like to come back to like a version one of yourself to say what was going

on. And you're like, nah, like I'm seeing it from version six. Like, you know, like I'm glad it happened. It was a lot of pain and this, that, and the other, but like, you know, imagine if I stayed, that would be the trauma. Yeah. And I definitely think there's a moment where we all have to ask ourselves, am I leaving this from avoidance or am I leaving this because this is what, this is what, um, is just my calling. Right. And I definitely think we can jump from marriage to marriage or relationship to relationship or job to job just because it gets hard and just because we don't want to deal with it. And I think that's always just such an important question to ask is, um, am I leaving this job if you will, or whatever the experience is, because I'm trying to avoid something?

Or am I doing it because I'm trying to move to something greater? And that's something I think that only each of us can answer ourselves because every situation is unique and different. You've spent time with some of the greatest teachers in the world from a mindfulness perspective and some of the greatest and most influential business leaders in the world. What is it that you are taking away or learning? Wow, that's a great question. So one, I'm so, so, so grateful to have spent time with some of these teachers, whether it's Thich Nhat Hanh

or Eckhart Tolle or Jack Kornfield, John Kabat-Zinn and many others. It's such a blessing, you know, to meet people that have explored that inner domain so deeply and to just be in their presence. I feel like there's something that emanates, you know, when you're with somebody who's living at least most of the time in presence it's or the Dalai Lama for that matter too there's something that's felt when you're near them that they don't even have to speak you know uh barren katie is another one um they don't even really have to speak they there's something that emanates just from their presence and so i feel like a lot that i've learned from the teachers that i've been with is that there's a way of being

that um doesn't have that's both that's at ease and connected um and so it's less about their knowledge it's less about um you know the sophistication and how much they know. But it's more about how I feel around them and that they show me that there's this way of being that's completely at ease and completely open and curious. I did a few events with the Dalai Lama. When the Dalai Lama walks into a room, it's like there's this force of nature. Nobody has to say, that's the Dalai Lama over there. It's just, it's just, he just kind of emanates something, you know, that that is comes from his practice and his commitment and his sincerity. And I want to, it makes me want to live that more fully to impact others in the same way, you know, they have impacted me. And so I've learned that

there's levels and levels of being that I didn't know as possible. There's levels and levels of, of kind of, um, heartfulness and of presence that, you know, I didn't know was possible. And I think all the people have in common this real priority on the inner domain and that they're tapping into something that isn't just the intellect. I mean, I think the intellect's wonderful and it does amazing things, but left alone, it doesn't, I don't feel like it takes us to the deepest place. And the people that I've, the teachers that I've met, they know how to use the intellect, but the intellect doesn't drive them. You know, the mind is a tool for them, but the mind isn't how they identify themselves, if that makes sense. What a cool answer, you know, is that their

presence. And again, it fits, you know, it's really a cool answer. And you know what i noticed about uh john cabezin is and i i think i i don't know if he by accident kind of spurred this in me but um the way that he hugs and now now if john listens he's gonna be like what what am i what you know like but the way it's like oh there's a there's like depth in there and then it's the then there's the eye contact it's like oh look at that and then there's the joy right and there's a seriousness um and then i started to really notice that in other people like okay well what is it like when we shake hands or hug or eye contact? And it's not like it was brand new from John, but it was just different.

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. There's a story. I hope I didn't tell the story, but did I tell the story about the kid and the hug in the juvenile hall? No, no. So I worked in these juvenile halls, you know, it's really intense kids. And I was doing this course and there was this kid, I forget his name, but he's about 15 and he would come in the class and I'd lead it like meditation and he would not be paying attention at all. He just kind of sit there and look around. He wouldn't be

disruptive, but he just kind of look around and we do yoga and like, you know, the other kids are kind of moving their hands up. Not, he's just barely even moving. And, um, but at the end of the class, at the end of the class, every time he'd give me a hug and he'd say thank you. But I started getting frustrated with him over the weeks because I'm like, dude, why do you even come to this class? You don't do the meditation. You don't do the yoga. You just sit around. And then I realized, Thorin, you idiot.

He comes for the hug. He comes to the class to get that hug at the end of the class. That's why he comes. And like, why do I have a problem with that? Like, he just wants a hug. He doesn't care about the minute. All these things I think I'm doing to be helpful, not at all. It's so good.

So then after the class, I loved him differently, right? Because I'd be like, yo, give me a hug, you know? And I think there's some power in that, you know? Hugging our child, hugging a friend, hugging our partner, you know? Can we really be present with those people? And it's often the little things, you know, Mike? We think it's the big things, but it's often those little things that I think matter and impact the most. So like stitching that thought together, and this is why I love our friendship.

I know we don't see each other often, but I really appreciate our friendship. What do you want or hope that the next generation gets right? And what do you really want to focus some efforts on for this generation to get right? That's a great question. I think, you know, we both share a concern and a desire for a more ecological shift, you know, to tend to the earth, and I think in a different way. One of the things that we're having at this next wisdom 2.0, which is coming up March 1st to the 3rd is we're having kids from Parkland, Florida come who were a part of the mass shooting there, uh, that killed, I believe 18, 18 people. And so we have, uh, two teenagers, um, a parent who lost a child and also a teacher who was there. And it's remarkable to me how these kids talk, you know, and how these kids talk about not just gun control, but grief and pain and love and compassion and, you know,

and all these things. And I'm in awe of some of the kids that are beginning to emerge, you know, in our day and age and the commitment they have and the passion they have is just beyond. And, you know, I just turned 50 this last year and, um, I definitely have things I want to do and things I want to support, but I, I also really see myself as wanting to be a mentor for younger people who have a lot more energy than I do, you know, and have that fire in the belly. And I realize I'm reaching those years where I increasingly want to support them. And I think young people really need us. They really need mentorship. You know, they may not ask for it in the same way that we would like, but there is this ancient, ancient system of young people learning from the elders and the young people going out and making an impact.

But they really need our support. And so that's a big question for me is how do I support this next generation? And I feel like the challenges that they're inheriting are extreme and are intense. And I also think they're brilliant um i do get some concern that i have a son who's 16 another who's seven and uh stepson who's seven and um i do get concerned at how much technology seems to control their lives and how much you know snapchat and instagram and stuff like how many how much of their lives are kind of disconnected from other people and disconnected from nature. And that's definitely a concern I have is that are we raising a group of young people who will not know the power of human connection or not

know the power of nature just because technology is kind of so engrossing. And that's definitely a concern I have. But I also see the way in which this younger generation is so passionate and so committed, and just like the kids from Parkland, they amaze me. I'm in awe that they could go through it, they could go through and be able to speak the way that they're speaking. So I think it's a real mix. I think, Mike, it's like you can look at our society and be like, wow, we are getting so much better. We're really improving. It's amazing what's happening. And you can look at our society and be like, oh man, we're lost. You know, like the environment is, is like deteriorating and we're all looking at our phones most of the day,

you know, taking pictures of food we're eating. Like, you know, there's different ways you can look at it. And I don't know what the right way is, but I definitely know that the role of mentors and the role of elders is really important. And somehow we have to connect with youth and use their passion and hopefully use some of our intelligence and wisdom to make things happen. Where's your next wisdom to what is it up in the Bay Area, San Francisco? Yeah. So we, San Francisco? both with the kids from Parkland, but also, you know, how do we heal? How do we actually address grief and our pain in ways that allow us to be a more active and contributing member of the world? And then people like Michael Pollan and others who were doing a lot of research in the psychedelic

and other domain, talking about, you know, the use of psychedelics in terms of healing and uh and i i'm also just super fascinated by that plant-based medicine um and then other technology leaders talking about the future of technology and how we're going to create a world where you know i think technology at least the this last generation of technology whether it's snapchat or instagram or facebook or something mindfulness wasn't really a part of what they were thinking they were just thinking like how do we create something like super super uh interesting and and compelling and i feel like there's this new chapter of technology that's now wanting to happen where we're looking like how does

it actually support well-being and and can we, create kind of different ways of, of using technology that is, um, that is, uh, nurturing to us. And, um, I definitely want to be active and fostering that conversation. So our kids, um, you know, can grow up with some other options and the technology can kind of ping us and say, you know, you've been on Snapchat now for 20 minutes. Would you like to try this meditation first? Or, you know, somehow work with us. You know, I don't know exactly how, but, you know, I would love, I'm envisioning technology that could work with us more closely. community of really some of the most courageous switched on high performing humans that are interested equally in the internal and external is extraordinary and so yeah i want to i want to say again and i know i've said it so many times so you're like thank you for including me in your community thank you for um allowing me to celebrate with you some of the community members that i've been part of and the courage that they've expressed and the insights that they've shared and the science that's, you know, wrapping around it.

Yeah. So I just want to say thank you for friendship and community and for folks who are not connected to what you're doing, like Wisdom 2.0. What's the actual website? Wisdom, the number two, summit.com. Wisdom2summit.com.com check it out and then where are you on are you active on social i go in and i have a love hate relationship i'm soaring g at twitter and um instagram and so i'll go on for a while and then i'll stop for a while so not as always consistent um but i also want to say mike it's been it's been amazing to see what you've created you know through this podcast and through your world. I remember meeting you when you were just kind of like you were underneath.

You were kind of behind the shadows, right? And then all of a sudden somebody showed the spotlight on you and you couldn't hide out anymore in the locker room. And it's been a real joy to see you mature and grow as that spotlight has kind of brought you out into the world to share and to learn. So it's been a real joy to see that process. Appreciate you. Maybe more than you know, but I hope you feel it. So thank you. I feel it.

Yeah. Awesome. All right. So let's connect soon. And thank you for your time. Connect with Soren at the conference. If you haven't been part of a community or his community check it out it's worth every part of the investment of time and

money and the effort to get there like flat out worth it and then also check him out on social as well and the community that he's created is really special so soren with that thank you hope you have a fantastic rest of your day. Yeah. Thanks so much, Mike. Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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