Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Standing Up to Racism | Soledad O'Brien

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Soledad O’Brien, an award-winning documentarian, journalist, speaker, author and philanthropist.She is dedicated to telling empowering and authentic stories on a range of social issues.Soledad currently anchors and produces the Hearst Television political magazine program “Matter of Fact with Soledad O’Brien” and she also reports regularly for HBO’s “Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel.”She has anchored shows on CNN, MSNBC and NBC, and hosted projects for Fox and A&E.At CNN, she was the face of CNN’s morning news shows for many years and a frequent reporter and analyst for breaking news stories and election coverage.She also anchored the CNN documentary unit, where she created the “In America” documentary series, which includes “Black in America” and “Latino in America.”Soledad was recognized with three Emmy awards -- for her coverage of the Haiti earthquake, the 2012 election and a series called “Kids and Race.”So Soledad’s resume speaks for itself-- she has a deep regard for her craft and more importantly: separating right from wrong.On the surface, this movement, these protests, they’re about highlighting the injustices, the police brutality that many African-Americans have been prone to for far too long.But it extends further than that.This conversation is about accountability... we all play a role.It’s up to us whether we’re the person who chooses to actively make a difference or turn a blind eye._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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My name is Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, and as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who have dedicated their life efforts towards the nuances of being fully alive, whether that's through mastery of craft or mastery of self. It's conversations with people that are switched on. They really have a deep understanding and they know how to translate it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms. One thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center

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David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And this week's conversation is with Soledad O'Brien. She is an award-winning documentarian, a journalist, speaker, author, and philanthropist. She is flat out dedicated to telling stories, authentic, empowering stories on a range of

social issues. And she currently anchors and produces Matter of Fact with Soledad O'Brien. And she also reports regularly on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. And she's anchored shows on CNN, MSNBC, NBC, and she's hosted projects for Fox and A&E. She's been there. She's done that. And she also anchored the CNN documentary unit where she created the documentary series, I'm sure you've heard of both of these, Black in America and Latino in America. So what perfect timing to have her in this conversation to share her insights. She's also won three Emmy awards for her coverage on the Haiti earthquake, the 2012 election, and a series called

Kids and Race. So her resume speaks for herself, flat out. She has a deep regard for her craft, and more importantly, separating right from wrong. On the surface, at the time of this recording, there is a movement that is taking place, highlighted by the protests and sometimes near-rioting and full-on rioting, that they're highlighting the injustices, the systemic racism, and at the tip of the conversation of these protests, the police brutality that African Americans have suffered from. And let's keep learning. In this phase, let's keep exploring the truth and the principles that are based and grounded in humanity for humanity to flourish. And at the same time, let's sort out the actions that support that aim.

This conversation with Soledad is about accountability. And we all play a role in the social system that we have. And at the same time, we can do better. And Maya Angelou shared an awesome insight. Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. And for me, my life has been focused on knowing and doing better, all of which both must enter through the present moment. That is the intersection.

How do we bring the knowing to life and to do better consistently? So by spending more time in the present moment, that doorway to deeper insights opens and it opens up to, you know, the way for right action, whatever that means for you. But it's certainly got some sort of connection to empathy and courage to be fully aligned in principle-based thoughts, words, and actions, independent of the circumstances around you. And it's up to us whether we're going to be the person who chooses to actively make a difference or silently benefit from turning a blind eye. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Soledad O'Brien. Soledad, how are you? I'm okay.

I'm okay. It's been a crazy couple of days, I think, for everybody. And it's very weird to see, I live in New York City normally, I'm a little bit outside of the city now, and it's weird to see your city literally being damaged by, I wouldn't say destroyed, I think that's overly dramatic. I think people are smashing in windows and looting liquor stores and this and that, and other stores. So it's hard to feel good about anything that's happening, not to mention coronavirus. So we've all been stuck inside. So I would say I'm okay.

And I think these days we kind of aim for okay. I love the way you're coming from that because it's not like, hey, I'm good. And it's not like, oh, I'm so far down. There are times when we feel that both of those extremes, but you said, I'm okay. And so what is the psychology? What are the ways that you've organized your inner life to be okay? Because this is a hard time to be okay. You know, it's so interesting. I have four kids. And so I think it's been such a blessing and mine are a little bit older. So I have two boys who literally graduated from ninth grade today via Zoom, and then a high school senior who graduated last week via Zoom and a college freshman. And so because they're a little bit older and because they're really pretty good

with technology, they've been doing online learning. And it hasn't been like many of my girlfriends who have little kids, which just lets documents where it seems like hell on a platter, right? I mean, to help someone do a Zoom call for online learning when they're a third grader or a fourth grader, which means sitting with them and then helping them do their homework, et cetera, et cetera. It just seems very chaotic and crazy. So I feel very lucky on that front. Plus with four kids and a husband and just adopted a puppy, it's a very full and it's lovely to spend a lot of time around your kids. I normally travel a lot. So it's actually, that part's been amazing. I mean, they're all stuck in the house and we have a big backyard, so they get to run around in the backyard. And so, you know, there are certainly things that I feel very blessed in having that I do not take lightly. But at the same time, it's just messed up, you know, the day my daughter graduated from high school. And I'm not a very sentimental person, like, you know, I've been sort of telling her like, I get over it. And I actually really

got it. I felt badly for her, like, for her. And it almost feels like she's not allowed to mourn because obviously so many other people have it so much worse. And so trying to find that line where, yes, you get to mourn, but also recognize that you're not sick, you're not dying, your parents haven't lost their jobs. All of those things are important. So I think that that's kind of what goes into my okay, feeling like I have mastery over my situation and it's a pretty okay situation. And thank God everybody's healthy and they get to run around a bit. But also recognizing like, wow, it's just a messed up time. You know, we have, I run a small production company. I have 11 employees. And really, from day one, we decided that we would keep everybody employed. So that, you know, is another piece of it. I'm very proud that we get to, I mean, how could you imagine laying off people in the middle of a pandemic where no one's going to hire them? I mean, insane. But it also is stressful, right? Like being responsible for 11 people's financial wherewithal is very stressful. But I'm glad that we kind of just decided like, no, no,

everybody stays employed. And anybody who needs more help knows that they can reach out to us and say, hey, I'm also struggling over here. And we'll figure it out. So I feel pretty good about that. Okay. So it sounds like one of the strategies you use is to bounce off with perspective. So you calibrate your current experience, what's happening, and you use a, let's call it an accurate inventory of what is, you're very clear about what's taking place. And then you use perspective to help, um, to help create the narrative, to help shape your experience, to say, okay, listen, it could be worse, that type of tactic, if you will. Is that part of how you deal with most crises?

Yeah. You know, I think as a reporter, you know, often when you're a reporter in the field, people will say, oh, how is it? You're like, it's fine for me. I live in New York City, right? Here in Haiti or Thailand or Japan or wherever. It's terrible. And let me tell you, but I've always really pushed back against somebody asking that because this idea of like that the journalist should be

framing the story as opposed to holding the mic for other people who should tell their story, I think is just really wrong. You know, and also I think I travel a lot, a lot, like 150 days a year. And so there's something very nice about not traveling, about, you know, being stuck at home, but also just being home, you know, and, and hanging out every night. And I mean, it sounds going to sound so ridiculous. I hate to say this. Like if I ordered, if I had eat, had a meal there, the chance of me having the leftovers would be zero, right? I just would be trapped by the time I came back to it, too much time would have passed. And now we sit around, we plan out our meals and what does everybody want? And everybody has a say in like, what special dessert do they want? And what, you know, I mean, it's really kind of, it's a little bit special to be able to do that with your kids, because normally, I just travel a lot. So I sort of miss those little moments. I mean, I feel like as I am saying that it sounds so cheesy. But I think all those things help me

feel like it's not for us terrible. We run a foundation. We have some people who really are struggling and we get to help them. And then we have employees who are all working and we get to provide an environment where they get to work. Because I know I sure as heck like getting up in the morning and working and having a workout and have something to do. So I think, you know, I think it's really, it's really been helpful to have something to go do and to really feel like we're in the scheme of things, we're fine. So let's go upstream for just a moment. What is your purpose? Like, are you able to articulate or put that your arms around

or put words to your, let's call it the big thing, your life purpose? Yeah. You know, um, when you run your own company and you don't have any dream of being on meet the press or writing a column in the New York times, you get to be a very honest critic. I feel like I can bring a perspective because I've actually, I can tell you exactly what it takes to put something on the air or write a headline, and I totally know, and I can, I think I can point out flaws and hold people accountable at a time when I think it's really important, you know, where sloppy journalism is, is results in people getting killed, or people getting injured, or people getting deported, or, you know, like, it's a serious consequences. It's not everybody laughs it off and says, Oh, can you believe we messed that up? So I think a lot of my purpose of late has just been the no bullshit. I'm going to call it as I see it. And by the way, if you don't want to put me on meet the press,

I am so good with that. And if you don't want to put me on, uh, you know, review a book for the near times I am, I am so busy. I don't care. It's never been my dream. I don't want it. So many people will text me and say, I so agree with you, but you know, sometimes they book me for Meet the Press or, you know, I'm really trying to get this thing. And I, and, and it's so funny to me, because it's just never been my dream. So I don't care. And I think it's, I feel very free. I was going to say that's, that's freedom. That, that is internal freedom. Now, where, when did you, okay, I want to stay here for a minute. When did you realize that you, and when I say realize, I don't mean like recognize, but like, when did you

express that freedom fully? You know, I think when I started my own company about seven years ago, and I think that once you're not working for somebody, it really makes a big difference. You just get to sort of say, let me tell you a story about how things work and what happened, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it's probably really, really started then where I got to feel like, oh, I don't have to not tell this embarrassing story. I used to tell the story when I left CNN. I had a boss, a great guy. He was the head of CNN worldwide.

And so he was my boss's boss's boss. And a very good dude. He actually hired me and helped create Black in America, which we did for nine seasons. And I remember one day I was giving a talk, actually, when we did our first Black in America in 2008. And someone asked me, it was a TCA, Television Critics Association. And people were like, tell me, how did you come up with the documentary? And how did you book people?

How did you find the stories? And at some point, someone said, well, what was your big takeaway? I said, you know, the interesting thing, it's back 2008, they said it was around policing. Our documentary was six hours and it looked at poor black people, middle-class black people, rich black people.

But when it came to policing, everybody almost spoke like they were talking from a script. When my son, sometimes daughter, when my son turned 13, I sat him down and I said to him, let me tell you what you should do if you are stopped. And literally, it made verbatim. So the person who was literally, I was shooting her the day she was being evicted from her terrible housing, to the middle class family with six kids going off to college, to the really, really rich guy in Hollywood Hills, virtually reading off his script. So I tell that story around policing, that this was the thing that kind of stuck out to me.

And at the end, my boss, this guy who'd funded and went on to fund Black in America for nine years, and he said, you know, that story is just not true. I said, what do you mean? And he said, white people tell their kids that too around policing. And we had spent a year and a half on this doc. And I said, you know, I don't think so. I don't think it's the same. I think white people are like, don't be a jerk to the cops. But black people are like, we need to have this talk because this could save your life. Here's how you need to behave so that you survive this encounter. Let me tell you, I grew up in an old white separate. Nobody had a conversation with their kids about how to survive encounters. And he said to me, it's just not true and you need to stop telling that story. And so I did. I was like, okay, I would like to keep this job. So,

and you're a super good dude. If you met him, you'd be like, he's a good dude, but he couldn't wrap his head around this idea, right? That things were unjust in this way. And so one of the things that I did when I left CNN was to tell the story. I said, oh, here's a story. I was never really, and that part was very freeing. So I think it just allowed me to, that was like the toe in the water, and then you could sort of say, well, let me tell you how shows are booked. Well, let me tell you how they could have asked this question. Well, let me tell you why yes, no questions up. Well, let me tell you why this headline is awful. Well, let me tell you why the fact that this person is

a birther should be elevated into this conversation and not ignored. I have a lot of these conversations all the time and it doesn't make me super popular. But again, at 53, like I'm good. I have a puppy, four kids, a best friend, a couple other friends. I'm good. Like I am perfectly good. And I feel like that is my mission now to kind of help explain and deconstruct things in the media. And by the way, I love the media. I love journalism. And I think I do it because I really do love it so much. Okay. So I want to go back to that place where you couldn't say no. You had all the moral fiber. You had all the conviction and evidence that this was a real thing. And I'm imagining because the way you described the story that the compromise came from financial needs that you needed to have a job. Yeah, I like my job and more than financial

needs. I like my job. You liked it. Okay. And so if you were to do it again, would you do the same thing? Probably. I think I would measure, do I want to lose my job over this story? Do I want to have a confrontation over this thing? Which is like, okay, I know it's true. You don't want to know it's true. You're the head of CNN worldwide. Okay. know so it just wasn't it felt like not worth fighting I had an interesting talk today with a guy who who feels like I pick on him a lot because I do and he was sort of saying like I put black people on TV and I said to him sure during a riot you do but you do you advocate for diversity within your company? And you have a voice, you have a platform you could, but you don't. Do you, um, stand up for people when it's awkward and uncomfortable?

Do you know how awful it is to have these conversations about race? I hated them. And I always had to be like, how many black people are hired for this new show? Uh, how many, I mean, who wants to be that person? Everybody hates that person. I hate that person. You know? And yet, you know, and I said to him, uh, I mean, who wants to be that person? Everybody hates that person. I hate that person, you know? And yet, you know, and I said to him, like, it's not very hard to book people for your show when this is the topic. The hard part is booking people for your show when this is not the topic, right? When you say, holy cow, this is a really important issue and we're going to do it. Um, one of the things we started doing in my show, matter of fact, that we do for in conjunction

with Hearst Television was, it's a like public policy show. And we recognize that if we really wanted to hit the mission of doing a diverse show, and by diversity, I mean, like truly diverse, like really everybody's voice, we'd have to track it. Right? Because I think I probably default to middle-aged white guys like everybody does, you know, certainly lots of gravitas. If you said, I'm an economist, I bet I would come back to you with six really great dudes from Harvard, Stanford, Yale, like we're all 62-year-old white guys because I'm programmed to do that in TV news. So we started tracking it. We had a big

spreadsheet of like, here's who's on our show. And we really decided that we were going to work very hard to make sure that our show was truly diverse. Meaning if I'm talking about farms in the Midwest, then I need to talk to a Midwestern farmer, right? It's not going to be the politician and it's not going to be someone who wrote a book about it. It's going to be the guy or the woman. If we're going to talk about homeless people, then it's going to be a homeless person as part of this conversation. Native American tribes, somebody who is Native American needs to run through this story at some point. Middle, millennial voters, make sure I'm talking to a millennial voter, right? That there was a, an expertise that we had to be having

as part of our conversation. Sometimes it's hard to do. It's very easy to book a guy who runs the organization that does and not say, wait a minute, but we're supposed to be hearing from millennial voters. So someone run out and go grab somebody off the street who's a millennial voter. And the question is always right for millennial voters why don't you vote and they'll tell you so I think when we started doing matter of fact it it was really the first time I had bosses who were like no no we want to do that like we want true diversity not we're going to be the face of it dude we've got uh black history month we got women's month we got a cup you know but hit those make sure you get some veterans in there instead it was like

you this is who our audience is and we're going to serve all these people and I think that was very um I didn't really believe it at first because it just was so unusual and you know we have we have our shows been successful most most syndicated shows fail and we're like it's like something like 97 percent of syndicated shows fail and we're in it's like something like 97% of syndicated shows fail and we're in our fifth season so we've survived and thrive we have millions of viewers uh so I just think this idea of wow you really could tell diverse stories without it being patronizing like here's a foster mom who's doing a great thing in her community. Also, a local church is doing this. Instead, like, holy cow, what's happening to people who can't afford rent?

Like, that's a good story. And here's a soybean farmer where suicide has become an issue on these farms because people are losing their farms. That's a tough story. But those are the kind of stories that we did and that we do, I should say. So I think that that has felt very

important to do. And maybe that's a better answer than pinning someone down on, you're wrong and I'm going to make you say you're wrong about policing of Black people. Instead, it's like, well, let's just go do these stories over here and show people that we can win on these diverse stories. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, so you've got an arc that you've experienced. This is like the implicit thing that I'm hearing you talk about, that you had this arc in your career. And in this arc, you found great freedom. And earlier days, you didn't have as much freedom, but you certainly had a point of view. You certainly had all the gumption

and the moxie to get after it and to get to the truth. Where did that spark come from? Where did that passion come from to get to the truth of things? I just am so against hypocrisy. And, you know, it's interesting. I'm one of six kids, and maybe that's part of it, because I think children have a very well-honed sense of fairness and justice. When you're one of six, you're like, oh, this is what's fair. You were five of six, right? I'm number five.

Yeah, I have a little brother. So at CNN, I did a series called Latino in America. And at the time, Lou Dobbs was anchoring for CNN. And his shows were terrible. He attacked Latinos. I mean, awful, really. And people protested our doc. Like, we were doing this doc for the first time. And people would literally, in front of the building, like, really. And people protested our doc. Like, we were doing this doc for the first time,

and people would literally, in front of the building, like, protest in front of the CNN building in New York. And they were lovely to me. People, when we would do screenings, people would stand up and say, Soledad, we think you're great, but here's all the reasons why we would never watch your doc, blah, blah, blah. And how could you fault them, right? Like they were saying, you're here doing a story on Latinos as if it's going to, a series on Latinos, as if it's going to make up for someone who spews racist bile every day. Like this network can't have it both ways, right? You can't say this is valuable to us and these stories matter.

And this person is always valuable, also valuable to us and these stories matter and this person is always valuable also valuable to us and so I think I just had a very honed sense of like yeah this is kind of bullshit like this is and everybody knows it is right we all know even my bosses who are sending me in to do it were like yeah good luck you know um and it was a really good series but it was a very uh it was a very challenging time because I didn't disagree with the protesters who were protesting my series. Like, you're right. You're right. How do we, on one side of our mouths, say this and on the other side, say that? You know, today, the Washington Redskins tweeted about, you know, they tweeted something about standing with Black Lives Matter. You're like, duh. And, you know, it's like the irony is completely dead and lost. And I guess that

just irks me. I feel almost a little bit gaslit, right? Like, like you're, you're, you're tricking me. You're pretending a thing that we all know is a lie. And, and that just bothers me. And I guess as long as I'm alive, I'm just going to call out what I think is egregious gaslighting and lying and dishonesty. And if I can, then I will, because I think there is a level of, of fairness. And I think those protesters for, against my own doc, like I didn't, they were right. How do you in good conscience tell them, yes, you should sit down and watch my doc and support it, but don't listen to Lou Dobbs who bashes Les Chitos at seven o'clock tonight. You can't keep those two thoughts in your head and be an honest person.

And I think one of the challenges that I'm having with the time that we're in are people who talk about leadership, but when it comes to doing it, they can't bring themselves to do it. Like I find that just very, then don't write a book about it. You want to be a terrible leader? Be a terrible leader, but don't try to market yourself as a great leader. Don't tell me how you're a good leader. Don't brag about being a good leader. You are a terrible leader. And, and I guess it's the hypocrisy that I find really challenging. When you think about leadership, what comes to mind for you? You know, it's so interesting because I think, I think for when I started my company, I really did not like managing people.

I used to tell my husband, like my managing style was, I just want to tell people, do your freaking job. I wasn't like, okay, that's terrible leadership. So it was never something that, I think some people, I have, my best friend is a great, she was my boss and she was a great manager. She's just great. And I'm not. But I think leadership is about being the one who is going to take one for the team, right? If you're in charge, then you're responsible for sticking up for people, for saying something, for standing up for what's right, for espousing and speaking life into the values, whatever they are, of your company.

And people turn to the leader. One of the things that I realized early on, and someone had said this to me, and I didn't realize until I experienced it. They said, when you don't fire someone who's a problematic employee, you signal to everyone else, right? Like that's the hard part, is the signal you send to everyone else. While you're unwilling to do this you send to everyone else while you're unwilling to do this over here everyone else understands oh you're willing to let this slide

and so you get good at dealing with problems because because you you have to have everybody has to understand this is the culture this is the environment of our office this is okay this is not okay this is what we believe this is not what we believe this office is not. If you're not happy here, if you don't want to do the kind of work we do, you should go. Like, it's totally fine. And so I think that being the executive in charge of environment or the executive in charge of the culture is kind of my job. And that means speaking up when something's wrong, when someone does something wrong, when I do something wrong. That means what are the projects that we pick? And we're lucky because of the way we were structured, we were profitable immediately,

kind of my exit deal out of CNN, CNN, my first client, right? So we immediately, our biggest problem was we had all these projects and no office space, which is a very good problem to have. And, you know, you really have to, like, what projects do you say yes to? Do you say yes to a thing that you morally think is a horrible project with horrible people? That comes across your plate sometimes. So I think a lot of leadership is about being tested and then having to decide, like, no, this is what we believe. And I think it's the same as in parenting. And I think it's the same as in, you know, just growing up, like, who do I want

to be around? What do I believe in a crisis? What do I do? What are the decisions I make? What, what do I stand for? You know, when the moment calls, what do I stand for? And I, it's been very troubling to me to see that for a lot of people, they stand for nothing. They I stand for? And I, it's been very troubling to me to see that for a lot of people, they stand for nothing. They literally stand for nothing. That's a bummer. I really, because I, my parents are both immigrants. I very much believe in the American narrative. I, I believe in, in a movie version where someone stands up and says, I, this is not okay. And I am waiting for someone in Congress to do that and say, you know, enough, and not tweet it and leave it, but like, do something. So, you know, I think that that has made it very much

of a challenging and depressing time, but if there's a way to talk to leaders, which I get to do a lot, and interestingly, at a time when I think our institutions are failing and struggling, business has to deal with the public. Not everybody does it well, but most see race riots and they're like, oh shit, what are we going to do? We can't do nothing. And I think they actually do want to figure it out, most organizations. And so I've always been very impressed by the change that business tries to bring because they operate in the world and they want to be profitable. So they have a motive to do it versus a lot of other places that I don't think really

want to make change. One of the things that happens for people is, you know, we're seeing a double-edged crisis right now. We've got a health crisis, and then we've also got an emotional crisis, you know, a crisis of justice. And if you double-click under there, I think it's a crisis of dignity. And certain people have not had the opportunities that others have had. And it's not by their choice. It's systemic. And one of the real challenges for the emotional part of life is that hopelessness and helplessness on one end and then rage on the other. And what ends up happening is when people don't know how to feel and don't know what to do, they can vacillate between those two or pick one. And right now we're at rage. My question to you is, if you could design one, two, or even three steps that people could take based on what you've learned, based on the conversations you've been in, based on the experiences that you felt to be a woman of ethnic in America, what would

you want people to do? One, two, or three things to get us down the right path. I'll start with a little story. My little brother is a doctor. He's an anesthesiologist out in San Diego. When he was a medical school student, he went to Harvard Medical School and he was in Brooklyn at a party. He and two friends were walking down the street,

cops pull up and they stop him. And he's tall, he's about six foot something, probably 200 something pounds. And all black kids at the time. Cops put him, make him lie down in the street, dump their duffel bags, you know, cause they were going to stay at a friend's house in Brooklyn for this party. And I remember talking to him afterwards. Someone had knocked over a toll taker's booth. And it was three guys. And they roughly matched the description. But it wasn't them. They let him go.

And you know what he was mad about? He was like, I'm the most law and order kind of guy. And yet no one apologized. Like not a single person who dumped all my stuff out in the street said hey dude i'm so sorry i'm sorry and he's like i wasn't expecting anybody to pick it up i wasn't he's like but i had to lie down in the street all my belongings were just thrown into the street like i didn't matter and and then no one even acknowledged like our bad, sorry. And I think it was that he was so angry and so full of rage, so full of rage. And so I guess for my three things, I wish I could just,

people could understand. We've all been there, right? We've all been mad because someone misunderstood. Maybe it was, they thought you said a thing that it wasn't you. It was that person there. And you're like, I cannot believe I'm being judged for this thing that I didn't say. Or you mailed something in and you swear you mailed it in two weeks ago, but they didn't get it. So you're going to be penalized. You're like, I did, I mailed it in. And we're so mad. And so I just wish people could understand. I mean, a lot of my doc work has been in trying to get people to understand like that, but what it's like a doc that I did about, um, it was called black and blue, which was about, um, policing and New York city. This kid must've been 20 years old said to me, he's been stopped a hundred times by the cops. And he said, but you know what it's like,

I'm a college student and they push you up against the wall of your university and your professors are walking by while you're squished up against the wall and they're going through your backpack. And he's like, I just, I can't, I can't articulate how embarrassing that is. Like you just can't, there's no getting over that ever, right? There's just, and so you become enraged and pissed off and that so i guess if you could figure out how people could really understand that that anger that people feel about being judged um and being it's the lack of the apology right for my brother it's like i get it three dudes should we roughly fit a description. I'm totally okay with being stopped.

I get it. Law and order. I fully support it. But that when they were wrong, like we didn't even merit a sorry. So that's one thing. The second thing would be understanding history. I'm not a big fan of the words white privilege because I've met a lot of white people who live in trailer parks who would say, I'm not privileged. You know, I don't have anything. And I understand their point. I think it's not a good phrase. I think talking to people about how whiteness has been valued is a better kind of framing for something like that. You know, I often will tell people, I grew up on Long Island,

and Robert Moses State Park is where we would go when you cut out of school. One of the reasons when Robert Moses built his state park, he put overpasses, and they're too low for buses to go through. So buses can't come from the city and bring people to the Robert Moses State Park. And when you look at sort of the paperwork around all that, it was intentional. The entire intention was, I don't want Black people from the city to come out in buses. We do not want them here in Long Island. And by the way, in Long Island, when I was growing up in the 60s, people would tell you that. We intentionally, we do not want, like, you know, if this was not a mistake and a misunderstanding and a, oh my gosh, how do we make that happen? It was intentional.

And so I wish people would understand what it's like to have a lot of intention around the rules and the laws keeping you out. And a lot of the documentary work I've tried to do has been to explain that. I did a doc about a guy, Melvin Morris, who, who was overlooked for the Medal of Honor. I think it was from the Vietnam War. And, and it wasn't just that he was overlooked. Eventually, I think he got the Medal of Honor as an older guy in his 80s. Lovely man. But he said, you know, when you get the Medal of Honor, which I didn't realize, your children get to go to military academies. You get a stipend that helps you pay for things, right? He could have paid for his, there's things that actually come with a Medal of Honor outside of just the glory of it, which is amazing. Like there's tangible benefits that for 80 years,

he didn't get, or 60 plus years, he didn't get because he, and the reason he didn't get or 60 plus years he didn't get because he and the reason he didn't get it was his white officers didn't felt like you know if you give it to a black guy it's going to create problems in the unit I mean and it was very overt and it was you know it was done it was made right but how do you give him back 60 years of not being able to send his daughter to college or his sons who hoped to go to the military, but couldn't go because they, you know, they would have been fast-tracked into a military, to an academy, because that's what happens when you get a Medal of Honor. So he did get it 60 years late, but so much was lost that can never be made up. And so really, I wish, second thing is just people understand history, like,

and how much intention is around this. Um, and I guess my third thing would be people understanding what it means to be an ally, which is another word I hate. Um, nobody wants to do the, everybody wants to do the easy work of allyship. Hashtag, I support you. But no one wants to be like, well, crap. All right. So what are we doing wrong? How do I hire more people? Why do we not have any black people working here? Well, how, how come every single black person who comes here leaves after nine months? You know, like those are the awful, unpleasant, uncomfortable, icky questions that you have to ask and track and figure out ways. I used to say to him, I did a very terrible interview once with the head of GE. And I said to him, you know, why don't you track women, black women who leave, you have all these black women who leave your

company. Why don't you track them? And he gave me some non-answer. And I was like, but if it was refrigerators, which GE makes, right? Like you would, if refrigerators were all failing, three months in, they all fail, right? The first thing you do would be like, what the heck is happening? Someone get in there and track that for me. What is going on? But when it comes to people, you don't care enough to measure it. So I guess that would be my third thing.

Like, it's not enough to say you're an ally. You have to actually really figure out how do I really do this well? And not everybody's allyship is donating philanthropy, whatever. Sometimes it's, you know, we're going to hire people or we're going to train them or we're going to put them in position to get jobs elsewhere. I think that those are the three important pieces of this that are hard to do, honestly, that they're very hard to do. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how

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even maybe the other way i think about it how has it knocked you sideways in any way, or even maybe the other way of thinking about it, how has it sharpened some of the things that you've been really crisp about, or how has it compromised and challenged in a difficult way some of the things, maybe even a heartbreak type of way that you've come to learn? Yeah, it was exhausting. I think one of the things that you realize, it's just exhausting. It's exhausting. I'm exhausted. And I think people, you know, we'll talk about George Floyd or the young man who was the police officer who was killed in his own apartment by the off-duty police officer. Imagine, right? Or the woman who was a paramedic, right? Who was shot in her apartment the other day

because the police got, right? I mean, I could list them and some names we know, Eric Garner, some names we don't remember, Abadou Diallo from 25 years ago or whatever, and I think we like to think of those as individuals, and I think for me, really, the lesson has been understanding that it's a system, it's not individuals, right, but the individual is not the story, it's that it's a system. It's not individuals, right? But the individual is not the story. It's that there's a system around policing. And we're seeing it writ large now as protests happen, right? As you see, you're like, wow. So people will fire upon people even when they're being recorded.

I mean, seriously, imagine someone putting a camera on you. You know you're being recorded and you go do the thing anyway. You say, that would be insane. And yet a woman in Central Park did that, right? African-American, I'm going to go. And the police officer sat on someone's neck for eight and a half minutes and we watched him die. So I guess I'm feeling exhausted, but also that we have to start looking at these things as systems and not individual. It's not justice for one guy or one woman. It has to be, okay, the system is not working. We have to figure out how to make it work. Okay, how do you make sense of what you saw where there was an officer

putting his knee on another man's neck until he died? How do you make sense of that? When I shot my documentary about stop and frisk in New York City, in the middle of the documentary, cop cars are going by. It was in East New York, which has a heavy police presence. And one of the things you see is, I'm not sure I can describe this right. Like cops will do UEs in the street as a kind, like if you and I did that in our cars, we'd be arrested or at least taken in somehow. But, but cops, and the whole point of it is this show of force, right? Like, let me tell you, we're watching you. We own these streets. And they would do it in front of us as we were shooting the dog. Like it was so weird. You're like, I'm literally shooting a dog about policing with

a guy who's suing the police department. There's a certain amount of just a lack of interest in serving certain communities, right? Some communities are policed and other communities are served. And let me tell you, I live in Chelsea and my community, if people do that, then would that last a day? And people would be on the mayor's doorstep saying, there was a police guard, you know, it wouldn't happen. But in certain other communities, you know, people are considered to be less valuable and they are, you know, they're not served, they're policed. So I don't know. I wish people could see it. I guess my response is always like, let's just capture it. Let's show people. There's a great video with a family and it's in Van Nuys, I think.

Reporters there with them, they're talking to the reporter about how they're protecting their store, their neighborhood. They see cop cars. There's looters at their store trying to get in. They're doing this, flagging the cops. Come and help us. Come and help us, Black family. I think the reporter's a Latina, right? She's telling their story.

And she's waving, too. Come, officers are there. There they are. We see them on camera. They loop around. They come in. They arrest the black family who owns the restaurant. I mean, it actually is in two minutes and 20 seconds, the most condensed version of like what it means to be black in America. They literally

walk up and put cuffs on the black people who are begging them for help. And I don't know. I just, I wish, I think people are seeing like like, you almost wouldn't believe it, and yet that's existence for a lot of people all the time. So there's something systemically wrong. I don't think police officers are evil at all. I think it's actually a very scary and difficult job, but there's something systemically wrong when I could almost guarantee you if we watched that happening five or six different times, four, five out of the six times that would happen, right? They're going to march up and they're going to arrest the brown people.

Even though everyone's screaming, but the looters are over. I mean, you should watch it. It's the craziest videotape. But you realize that it doesn't matter. It's just sad. It just kind of breaks your heart. Jesus. Right?

Yeah. I mean, it's overwhelming. How do you fix that? How do you fix that? Because that's so many systems at work, right? Actually, I'm sure some of those police officers who were perfectly, would be described as perfectly nice, fine people. I don't think they're evil people. I think that they are trained in a way to see certain people a certain way. And it just makes sense. And throwing cuffs on people, which is such an incredibly traumatic thing to do, or putting a gun in somebody's face, which is an incredibly traumatic thing to do, but they just don't really think about it. It's not lost on either of us that 11 of the world religions have talked about some version of do kindness, treat people the way you want to be treated, you know, acknowledge your own suffering

so that you can live with loving compassion, you know. So there's been a calling for ages for people to tap into the inner suffering to have a sense of what other suffering is so that we can live with some empathy. And that's the systemic message across many of the world's religions. But it's not being applied. And I'm not, listen, I am not feeling it. And my full name is Maria de la Soledad Teresa Marquina. I am named for the Virgin Mary. And I, I find it very hard to feel empathy. I do.

I find it very hard to feel, I'm just mad. I'm mad and I'm tired. And as you know, in a small child, right? Tired and mad is like, oh, that's a bad hungry is a bad combination. I don't know that you can be empathetic at a time when people aren't empathetic towards you, right? It feels like it needs to be a two-way street. It's incredibly difficult to do. And, you know, here's the idea is be the ocean. And it's, I'm not saying that this is

possible for most people that are not trained, but you have, we have a choice. We can be the pond. And when somebody steps in the pond, the water gets displaced. And it's like, what has just happened? You're, if you're the ocean, no, no, not very little can, you know, maybe a meter from outer space from a different whatever galaxy can disrupt the ocean. So like be the ocean, which is this abundance of compassion and love and empathy and all those things. Unfortunately, most people are, myself included, like I struggle. I'm trying to figure it out too. And it is really hard when we're overwhelmed with emotion to actually have anything other than the

overwhelmment, as opposed to like, if you're the ocean, it's something different. Here's my dilemma with that. Sometimes I think people need to feel outrage because they need to signal to other people, right? They need to say, I'm in a very wonderful position. I, I'm, I like what I do. I don't, there was a time when getting booked on a cable show was a big deal and it could maybe make a break for me for the next thing. I'm way beyond that. But sometimes I feel like, you know, you need to be outraged so you can signal to other people that it's okay to be outraged and you need to show people that, that they can be mad like that, that this is okay. And I do think sometimes people who I think are thinking on a higher plane, I sometimes feel like

the people below them, hierarchically below them, job wise, money wise, need them to stick up for them. You know, like the, the, the entry-level person cannot say, this is bullshit. Why are they need somebody to do that? And the person, you know, and so I, I don't, I don't know how you toggle between those things, but it's, you know, it's just, I've been sometimes so disappointed. I remember I did an interview with a woman once. I don't know if you remember a guy who killed three Muslim young people. I think one was in dental school and one was, like these young professionals. Lovely.

And he was their neighbor. He was always very rude to them. I do. Yes. like these young professionals lovely and he was their neighbor he was always very rude to them and um the sister of one of the victims i met and she was talking about how uh she was a doctor she was on rotation and she would sit by someone's bedside and and some of the patients would just mock her and make fun of her um i don't want you treating me and you're a terrorist and this and that. And she said, you know, the thing that killed her was that everyone around her wouldn't say anything. Like, she's like, I get that this woman is whatever, just hates me and it is what it is.

But what's hurting me is that these people who are my colleagues and my support and my team they can't bring themselves to say anything I think like that was a thing that was the knife in her chest and so I do sort of you know she was so sad about she wasn't sad about this woman she really wasn't she's a she's her sister was murdered right she's been through a lot but she was just this idea like and and not even for her people her age but this idea of like her attending physician right so the the 60 year old dude right who could have just shut it down in a second as a man it's not how we address the doctors here mary jane or whatever her name was is a professional and you shall treat her and she she, and I just, I've so been there, right? Where

you're like, is just no one going to speak up? Like, is just no one going to say anything? Oh, okay. Okay. I guess we're all in it on our own. And it's that piece of it that I sometimes worry about people who are seeing themselves as the ocean and they're, you know, that they, they don't understand that, that, that sometimes that's read as you're not fighting for people who are not in a position to fight for themselves. Yeah, I can appreciate it. And who protected you? Because you're an advocate for others, right? And you've got real opinions.

You've got real thoughts. And they're not missiles that are just loosely thrown. Like, you know, your intelligence is obvious on how you shape your ideas. Who protected you and gave you, if I use the military phrase, it would be like air cover. But if I use something more organic, it would be like provided protection for you to be able to say the thing and feel the thing that you were experiencing. You know, I think when you're a journalist, you have the opportunity, for me, what is always the air cover is the facts, right? Like the fact that you're right goes a long way. Maybe you said it in a nasty way, maybe you shouldn't have yelled, but at the end of the day,

the facts are on your side, in your piece, in your argument, in your discussion, in your yelling fight with somebody, the facts. And facts can be twisted. The same fact can be seen from two different perspectives with two intelligent people that are caring, kind, and wanting better for humanity and have a completely different narrative. So when you rely on facts, and this is the conversation with scientists around data, and I have great respect for data. And also I watch colleagues and myself sometimes included look at data and say, why are we seeing this in a completely different manner? And so you rely on facts. And then when the facts are right, that's like a position of conviction. And so if we double click on a conviction, how do you get to have, how have you become

a woman with great conviction? Where did that come from? Again, I think it's just, are the facts on your side? I mean, and that there's a moral imperative to do the thing that matters. And also, you know, I think with the risk of sounding like I think my job's more important than it is, I think being a journalist is a bit of a calling, and it's important. It's an important job, and that it matters. And I think there's a lot of people who do it who don't think it matters a lot. And I think it really matters a lot. I actually think how you phrase something matters, how you think about a story matters,

how you tell that story matters, who you center in the story matters, the point of view matters, who you give a mic to matters, it matters. And so, you know, I do think that, you know, the facts, there's some facts that are arguable, but there are a lot that are not. And that if they're on your side, you know, that that's how that to me is what gives you the air cover. Okay. So you'll stop the, the logic that I was flowing on at facts, facts are facts. And if you have the facts and they stack up to support your position in your argument, you're in the right place. If you said to me, listen, Soledad, I really think this whole diversity argument, it's very, very important and hashtag Black Lives Matter. I'd say, well,

let's talk about your staff and let's pretend you're a big mess. You're the New York Times, right? And I'd say, you guys have a lot of data on who you hire. Let's go through it. Okay. So by your own data, you have X number of employees who are people of color. You're in the most diverse city or centered in the most diverse city in America and your diversity numbers are terrible and you're the New York Times. You could hire anybody, right? It's not like they're people like, I don't know, do I really want to go work for the New York Times? So I'd say that data, those facts, help me push back on you could be doing better. You're not doing as well as you could be. And so before we talk about how you feel about somebody else, I need to talk about how you're

doing your own job in your own backyard. You know, don't lecture me on X when your own numbers are bad. And I think it gets back to that hypocrisy thing, right? Don't, you know, how do you, how do you say, I really want to figure out how we have these conversations about race in America. It's like, so step one, what's happening within your own organization and how do you fix it? And if you're not willing to do that, then you really don't care. And guess what? All this will be over in two weeks. So you can go back to hiding your head. It'll all be fine. Put out a nice little statement and, and it'll all go away. It's one of the, what one of the, exactly what one of the athletes, um, at one of the teams I work with said was at the Seattle Seahawks. And he says, listen to all my white brothers. Um, we appreciate you and you're a big part of this solution here.

And in a couple of weeks, we're still going to be black yeah and i heard it and i was like you know that's that's just right and what do you really want to do and the answer can't be you know we're writing a check to this charity it's we actually have to make i mean what people are saying even though they wrap it around one individual's killing, it's systemic change. It's like people are tired and they want a real change to the system so that somebody cannot, on camera, kill a guy by sitting on his neck for eight and a half minutes. Right? Like that was a bridge too far for people because they saw it happen. They saw it happen. They saw it happen. And so I think people, you

know, I think people want to see real change that allows that not to happen anymore. And also all the other things that allows, you know, justice generally across a number of different categories, not just criminal justice, but justice in every which way. Who would ever think that even if we're talking about a fraudulent 20 bill which of course a lot of conversations have happened that that didn't even happen right so but like no sane person would argue well obviously execution execution is the right answer no one would say i mean right that's not even, and yet, you know, anyway, I don't know. It just, it's too painful to think about. That's a powerful statement.

Okay. So you've been in the epicenter of really difficult conversations, experiences, and they tug on us. They tug on us emotionally. How do you deal with difficult emotions? What is your unique process? First of all, I think a really good strategy in difficult conversations is being very blunt because people don't expect it. I enjoy that. And I think it's made me a very blunt interviewer. Just go for the jugular because people don't think it's going to happen. And then I think like everybody else, I have good friends. You have cocktails, you try to work out,

you try to live a life and recognize and see kind of as we started our conversation, things are okay and things are good. And you are not the story and you are not in the middle of a earthquake, tsunami, you know, fire, devastation, that you have the luxury, frankly, of dropping in, telling those stories and then, and going right back to your nice, comfortable house and your nice, comfortable bed. And so then you owe it to those people to do a good job, right? If you're going to get to pop in and then go home, then you owe it to those people to do a good job, right? If you're going to get to pop in and then go home, then you owe it to those people who are going to stay in that situation,

who are stuck there, who this is their life story. You owe it to them to do a good job telling their story. Do you have an introspective process, something that you do to look within to understand how you're feeling and thinking? What is your process to understand your experience in it? I'm a venter and a talker, so I think I sort of walk people. My husband would tell you that I will tell the story 10 different ways. And how do you think? And then I said this, and what do you think about that? And was this right? Was that right? So I think I do that a lot

and that's part of it. I'm a big note taker. I think when I'm processing something, I like to write down, okay, here are the pros, here are the cons. Here's what I like, here's what I don't like. Here's how I'm thinking about this. Yeah, but on the other hand, there's this. And so I think for people who are list makers like me, that's how we think about issues. We really kind of divvy them up in our heads so that we can kind of visually lay them out and see where we are.

And how do you make decisions when you don't have all the information? Because that's something that leaders have to do. Well, you never have all the information. You know, I think I have a pretty good gut. One thing I decided when I started my company was I would just never, ever, ever work with people I didn't like I mean one of the luxuries you get is to be able to say oh my goodness no thank you we definitely should not and and my very one of my very first shoots I did

with somebody who I did not like and it was such a terrible miserable experience and I thought if there's one thing you get from being from running your own thing you absolutely to get to say I don't like you and we should not work together. And that was great. And so, you know, that you can opt in to anybody you want to work with. Some things will pay well. Some things will pay nothing. But at least everything you do, you'll be like, you know what?

I really wanted to work with that person. And that was a good experience. Or that was an interesting experience. or even that was a challenging experience. But it was never, God, I hate that person. But every day I had to suck it up and walk through that door and do this slog that I didn't want to do. I just, I refused to do that. And I think that has helped a lot to know that, you know, everything I get to do, I get to opt into. I love it. I mean, that is the definition of agency. It's the definition of self-efficacy that you have an internal power to be able to be an active agent in the quality of your life. And so

you're living the life of freedom, you know, and I love the bluntness that you have. You're like, ah, just say what I see, say what I feel. But then that's a little bit of a misguided approach because you think a lot. You're not callous in your approach. You're actually processing. Oh, and I don't think it's ever shooting off the hip. I think you do that a lot. No, no, no.

But understanding. I mean, really to understand like you can say yes or no. You have a limited amount of time on this planet. Your days have to be filled with something. Pick the things you want to do and say no to those things that you really don't want to do and say no to those people you don't want to be around. I often will tell people in our small foundation, send girls to college. I'm like, sometimes you need to fire your friends. There's some people who are just bad for you and you know what? And you can like them and they can be really fun and you can even love them but sometimes it's that you are not good for me

and so we are done we're breaking up friend we're done and I you know that telling young women like you don't actually have to work sometimes or hang out with certain people sometimes you do some jobs you do but but some things you actually get to say, you know what? I actually don't have to. And that is, I think, very powerful. One of the things that you keep doing is you keep seeing a brighter future. You keep seeing something ahead that's going to work out. So how do you identify opportunities when the sky seems to be falling for so many?

Never let a crisis. What do they say? Never, never lose the chance to leverage a crisis, right? I mean, it's, it's I'm mangling it, but it's some version of you're an idiot if a crisis comes and you haven't learned something from it. Right. I mean, I, and also things always surprise you always, I'm sure you've had these same experiences, right? You go in and you think, Oh my God, this is going to be terrible. And then

also something over here pops up once, twice, five times. You're like, Oh my gosh, there's a whole world over here. I didn't even know existed. Who knew? And that's happened to me a lot. You know, when I stopped doing daily news and I started doing documentaries, like there are a million documentaries to do. And then I got good at them and got started doing documentaries. Like there are a million documentaries to do. And then I got good at them and got a reputation and won a bunch of awards doing, you know, so like, and if you had said to me five years earlier, one day you'll be doing documentaries. I probably would have said, I don't think so. I don't think you know who I am.

You don't understand what I want to do. So I think it's just being open to, you know, that the world is a very long path and that it's about experiences and trying interesting things and saying yes to interesting things. So, you know, there are just a lot of good opportunities. The idea that there's only like five opportunities in the world and that's it, that just isn't true. Circumstances change, then opportunities change. Okay, two more questions. I want to say thank you for your time and your intellect and the purpose that you come from. You know, it's obvious how much you care and how much you've done. And so I want to understand your relationship with uncertainty. Because if I could fill in the blank, which I don't want to do, but the blank would be something along the lines like, oh, well, she's free because she has

a lot of money, because she doesn't need, you know, to walk the line anymore. You know, she's already made it. And that's why she has freedom. I don't think that's the case for you. I think that's what I was trying to get to earlier. I think the freedom came before. And I think well before you had the wherewithal to be able to dictate your business ventures. No, you know, honestly, I actually think that it's a combination because you have to have the mindset of it, but you also have to have the financial wherewithal to be able to do it. I made a lot of money when I was at CNN. And my husband and I early on talked about a FU fund. When I was a local reporter, I remember I was in San Francisco. So San Francisco had San Jose, San Francisco and Oakland bureaus, right? Massive land, you know, space. And every so often they would just willy nilly move a guy who was the

San Jose reporter and make him the Oakland reporter, right? Like literally overnight at two and a half hours to his commute. And I remember, I remember the guy's name was David. I can't remember his last name. And I just remember thinking like, oh my God, like here's a guy, he has a kid. I mean, he's, can you imagine if someone literally tomorrow just added a two and a half hour drive each direction to your commute? It would be horrifying. And they could just do that. And I remember thinking like, oh, we need an FU fund of like, when you don't want to go, you say, oh my goodness, thank you so much for the opportunity. But actually, I'm not going to be doing that. Thank you. And then we, you know, we talked a lot about that, like being able to have the liberty to make the decisions or, or even just hold off and pick something else that comes down the road later. So I think it is, I often advise young women, especially when I talk to like a national association of black journalists or Latino

journalists, you know, save your money and really think about kind of what life you want to lead and where you want to be, because those are the things that are empowering. And if you're heavily in debt, or you're stuck in a place, you're not going to be able to say, I'm going to go take this other interesting job over here that pays a little bit less. So there is some of that. That is part of freedom. It's not all that, but there's part of it. I love that. I've never heard anyone talk about it. This is something my wife and I have done for a long time.

That exact same narrative. It's to not be leveraged by the system, not be leveraged by things, but to be able to be in a position to choose. And you said something really important. You said the life you want to lead as opposed to what most people say, the life you want to live. And so that's just an interesting word choice that you made. And maybe it's more common, but I'm just not attuned to it. But why did you choose that word lead, the life you want to lead?

Because I think there's a lot of choice in it. No, I think you are leading it, not living it necessarily. You get to kind of pick and choose and you decide. Okay. So let's go back to the uncertainty. What is your relationship with uncertainty? You know, I don't love uncertainty. I'm a kind of person who, if I, when I used to be a runner, when my knees are better, I'd like to know, oh, it's exactly 2.1 miles to run this path. And I would run that path every day. I could eat the same meal every single day.

I have the same thing for breakfast every single day. I really like a lot of like, this is the plan. This is how it works. But on the other hand, I think one of my biggest strengths is flexibility. To be a good reporter, frankly, especially if you're a traveling international reporter, you have to land somewhere and then stuff happens and it doesn't work out. And so really having a plan A, oh, that didn't work out. Okay. Plan B, oh, that didn't work out. Okay. Plan C, like I actually think I'm quite good at that. I don't get stuck on my plans. I can turn on a, I usually have about a, you know, on a story, no time at all, but in life,

six hours of heavy crying and sadness. And then I'm like, okay, moving on. We're good. And so I think that flexibility, the idea of being able to see opportunity in the next thing around the corner. I actually really like that, which is weird because those two things sound completely contradictory, right? On one hand, I don't like uncertainty, which is weird because those two things sound completely contradictory, right? On one hand, I don't like uncertainty, but on the other hand, if I'm stuck with uncertainty, I think I can make it work. And then do you plan for contingencies? Like, is that part of your preparation?

Like if- Certainly in reporting you do. You just, I've just been in enough places where you don't plan for the contingency, but you plan for um things to go wrong so uh you plan for the plan not to work you don't necessarily plan for another plan but you plan for the first plan not to happen so when you go and cover a a hurricane for example right that you know it's not about the food you bring or the it literally is about plastic bags and rubber bands because you can do anything with plastic bags and rubber bands you can do a million things you can store your food you can put them in boots you can with the rubber bands secure them to

your feet keep your feet dry i mean there's you know like i'm very good at that vicks vapor rub shoved up your nose means you can move around when there are dead bodies and the smell is overwhelming. Sticking picks up your nose is really, really good strategy for kind of getting through by that, you know, so it's more like, I can plan to get through whatever's not working to get to the next plan. Well said. And kind of the last little theme here is what is the hardest part of life for you? You are a successful, articulate, well-educated, rooted human that is pointing out injustice for a long time and shining light on conditions that are in some cases unbearable. So what is the hardest part of life for you? You know, I think like for anybody, it's just hard to get it all in in a day.

You know, I remember when I was, my kids were very little, and I'm very sympathetic to people of small children during the coronavirus and looting and stuff that's happening, protests are happening now, right? It's just when your kids are little, it's so much work. Now mine are very, they run their own little lives. They have school to do. They can hop online. They can, they hop me online. They, you know, they're just super, super helpful. But I have a lot of friends whose kids are three and six and that's hard. It's just very hard. And so I think, I think for anybody, it's just getting it all in,

in a way where you feel proud of all of it. And I mean, proud of certainly the work you're doing at work, but also proud that you pulled dinner off and proud that you had a good conversation with your kid and proud that your house isn't disgusting and dirty and messy and proud that you got the laundry done and proud that you got this other thing done. That to me is kind of, I think that's the hardest part, the juggle and feeling good about all pieces of it. You're actually talking about something that neuroscience

would support, which is when you have a little win and I'm talking about the smallest win, like, Hey, I want to go for a run. Let me put my shoes next to the door. And then you look down and your shoes are next to the door. And you're like, look at that. I'm one step closer to my run tomorrow morning that, and you celebrate that, that your brain lights up. You get this flood of dopamine, the feel-good chemical. So your strategy is actually well-grounded in neuroscience. And so there's probably some magic in there that you're naturally tripping on. Hey, listen, I want to say thank you for this conversation.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nice to chat with you. Yeah. And where can people find you? You've got some books. You've got some places where conversation. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nice to chat with you. Yeah. And where can people find you? You've got some books. You've got some places where people can find you. Yeah, best way is probably online, social media.

And I'm Soledad O'Brien, at Soledad O'Brien on everything. And so, yeah, definitely hit me up on social media. Yeah. And then do you have a new project that people can look for? We are doing a documentary that looks at the role of public health for the most vulnerable, looking at specifically the city of Seattle and what happened when coronavirus outbreak happened. What did public health do to protect the most vulnerable? That will air probably, I think, on the 19th on all her stations. So that documentary is going to air pretty soon. Awesome. Congrats on everything. So thank you.

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