Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Stop Worrying About What People Think Of You | AMA Vol. 12 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Welcome to the 12th installment of our Ask Me Anything (AMA) series! The goal behind this series - behind these conversations – is to answer your questions and explore the topics that come up for you on your own journey to becoming your best self.We’re back with our favorite co-host—O’Neil Cespedes—and today, we’ve got a special one for you…As many of you know, on November 7th, my new book, The First Rule of Mastery: Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, is coming out – and the response so far has been epic. So many people are already resonating with the topic.You can pre-order the book here: findingmastery.com/bookSo in this AMA, we explore your questions around the concept of FOPO (or the Fear of People's Opinions).We dive into:- The challenges of being authentic in social settings- Why even the best in the world struggle with FOPO- Re-defining success- How to bring more vibrance to your life- What it looks like to love yourselfAnd so much more…Wishing you an epic week.This AMA is brought to you by CAROL! CAROL is an AI-powered exercise bike that’s scientifically proven to give you the benefits of a 45-minute run in as little as five minutes. To learn more, head to carolbike.com and enter the code FINDINGMASTERY at checkout for $250 off your purchase! (This offer only valid till January 15th, 2024). Again, for $250 OFF your CAORL Bike, head to: https://carolbike.com/_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And there's a path forward. Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. So the goal is to expand on the themes and lessons and best practices that we've discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. So we're back with our favorite co-host, O'Neill Cespedes. And today we've got something special for you.

As many of you know, in November of 2023, my new book, The First Rule of Mastery, Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, is coming out. And the response so far has been, it's been epic. So many people are already resonating with the topic. So in this AMA, we're going to explore your questions around the concept of FOPO, fear of people's opinions. So we dive into the challenges of being authentic in social settings. Why even the best in the world struggle with FOPO, redefining success, how to bring more vibrance into your life, what it looks like to love yourself,

and so much more. So with that, let's jump right into volume 12 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. All right, we're back. Another AMA. We're back, Dr. Mike. How's it going? You know, I'm feeling great. And do you know why I'm feeling great, Dr. Mike. How's it going? You know, I'm feeling great. And do you know why I'm feeling great, Dr. Mike? Who can imagine? I don't know if I want to let my imagination run wild for me. Well, I'm not going to allow your imagination to go wild. I'm going to tell you.

I got on my Carol bike this morning. Oh, there we go. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not going to lie. It blew my mind. especially the AI part. It was wild. I mean, seriously, isn't it like, it's like no other exercise that you've ever experienced, is it? No, it's not. And, you know, I'm not going to lie, my ego got involved.

And I was like, okay, what is he talking about? I'm talking about two 20-minute, 20-second intervals. Come on, I'm on Neil. You know, we'll go way. I can do this all 20 minute, 20 second intervals. Come on, I'm O'Neal. We'll go way. I can do this all day long. I can do this all day. But the way it was automatically like adjusting

with the resistance. To your, like right to the edge of your capacity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of mind blowing for me. And I hate to say it was mind blowing, but it was mind blowing. And then when you was talking about being gassed around five, six minutes,

that's another thing that I was like, come on, I'm O'Neal. You know, I can perform at a high level. I was feeling it. I was feeling it. You know? It's a legit, full-on expression of like the most intense workout you can get. And it's only two 20 second bouts.

Yeah. Which made it really cool because I thought to myself like, okay, on the days that i don't have much time to work out i can just get this get this in and boom be gone and feel like for cardio for cardio and feel complete you know i feel complete so it was really challenging i think it was awesome you know how i've been doing it is that um i've been stacking it right after my workout so i'll do some strength training or some mobility work. And then I don't have the type of life that I can get a 30, 45, 90 minute cardio session. And at one time that was like, that was a standard. I don't have that lifestyle now. So I'll get a quick hit of 35 minutes, some sort of strength or mobility, which I know somebody like you, that's not enough. But for me, that's good. And then I stack it right on top of it.

And now I've got this like complete package. Hold up, hold up. So you mean to tell me you do it after you finish working out? Because I ain't been doing it. I've been doing it just by itself. Solo? Yeah.

All right, level up. But I'm sure I can. Oh, you think? I'm gonna start stacking. If you stacking, I'm stacking too. Yeah, right. Okay, good. Yeah, so, and you know what's fun about it? The leaderboard that they have. And I know that like there. If you stacking, I'm stacking too. Yeah, right. Okay, good. Yeah, so, and you know what's fun about it? The leaderboard that they have,

and I know that like there's, you know, some people love leaderboards, some people don't, but I'm gonna be looking for you now, okay? I'm gonna be seeing where you stack with your output on those, just those two 20 seconds. It'll give you a, I'm checking for you now. You don't have to check too far cause I'm gonna be at the top of it. Number one, just number one. Oh, you think so? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I'm checking for you now. You don't have to check too far because I'm going to be at the top of it.

Number one, just look for number one. Yeah, I'm just kidding. That's awesome. I mean, you must've been feeling something because you reach for a sweater now in your closet. Please describe what you're wearing, please. Okay, so I shouldn't have to feel like this, but on the way over here, I was in the car,

and I was like, I know he's going to say something about it. Don't let him break you. Just walk in there like it's nothing, like it's what you do. Own it. Own it. And you are. I'm a big fan of Cookie Monster. Is that real?

Yeah. And as a kid, I was like, you know, I want to be Cookie Monster. And obviously I couldn't be Cookie Monster because I'm a human being. You can't be Cookie Monster. And obviously I couldn't be Cookie Monster cause I'm a human being. Can't be Cookie Monster if you're a human being, right? But as a grown man, right? If I see something that's Cookie Monster-ish, right? Like this cardigan,

and it took me back to my childhood days, why not do it? I'm grown, no one's gonna tell me what to do now. So I'm just- I love the freedom. This is one of the favorite parts about knowing you and doing this with you is that there is a freedom that you exude. And it feels so real, evidenced by you wearing something that is reserved for very few people to actually wear.

And somehow you pull it off again. I appreciate that. I try not to let people steal my joy. You off again. I appreciate that. I try not to let people steal my joy. You don't. That's good. All right, let's dig in. Let's do it.

But before we do this, I wanna congratulate you. I got my advanced copy of your book, "'First Rule of Mastery' Stop Worrying About What Other People Think." Congratulations on that. Thank you. I've been skimming through it, right? I'm gonna go into it deeper later, but I kind of want to be honest with you, man.

This helped with me putting the sweater on today. I'm not lying. I mean, Cookie Monster, this book helped you be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I bought this some time ago and I wore it one other time and I got teased a great deal. And I'm O'Neal, right? So I do what I want to do. I wear and I'm O'Neal right so I do

what I want to do I wear what I want to wear but the reluctancy started creeping in yeah you know what I mean yeah and uh you kind of in a way help I love that I love that okay well you know like everyone's gonna do something a little different with the book so this is great and you know with the book coming out we decided to source some questions around the theme of the book, FOPO, Fear of Other People's Opinions. I love that. Let's get into it. All right. So got a question from Christina.

Hey, Dr. Gervais. New listener here as of last month. Love your podcast. And it's really cool that you do these AMAs. I found out through an announcement of your book and I saw your book title and I'm a little confused. Shouldn't we care what other people think? I feel like it can be narcissistic to completely stop caring about what others think.

Okay. So what she's picking up on, the title of the book is The First Rule of Mastery. The subtitle is Stop Worry what people think of you and it's a good question that she asks because yes we do need to attend to opinions of others it is important to know and understand opinions of other people there's there's some people that we should deeply value their opinion and there's others that it's really noisy but that's not the central question here is it's not about whose opinions to value it's about worrying about opinions in general so the subtitle is stop worrying about people's opinions and that worry this pervasive, slippery, little, invisible, consistent, non-clinical does not meet the

threshold. Fear of people's opinions, as we're calling FOPO, does not meet the threshold for any type of clinical anxiety. But it's this very slippery little filter that we have operating for most of us, if not nearly all of us. Narcissists don't really have this. Sociopaths don't really have this, at least in the same way we have it. So it's this undercurrent about, I wonder what they'll think of me. And I wonder what they'll think of me if I wear a sweater that is different or weird or whatever and it's that it's that excessive worry right underneath the surface that shapes our thoughts it shapes our words and it shapes our behaviors and for the most part we play it safe to be part of the pack as opposed to you know get on

the edge and be authentic and bold and so this title is really about the first rule of mastery is to work from the inside out. And when you invest in your own psychology, other people's opinions start to fade away. But more importantly, the worrying of person who I pride myself on not caring what people think. Right. And when that leaks into my brain even a little bit, I'll take a risk and I'll take a chance. Like I'll put on something crazy or I'll go left when everyone's going right. Just to make myself embrace and live in that moment of just, listen, you can't follow the crowd. You can't worry about what people think.

But as I've gotten older, right, those things creep into my mind more and more and more. And my question to you is this. Is it something normal as you age to be like maybe i should maybe i should just conform a little bit more maybe i should you know yeah i think uh it could go a couple different ways for sure but before i answer that part the other part you said is like i don't care and i'm not addressing that in the book i'm addressing the worry about what they might think later or how we operate in social settings to try to figure out what somebody might be

thinking and that excessive processing and noise is just a drain on the system so we're going after the worry not necessarily the caring but what I like about what you're suggesting is that you practice when you feel constricted in some way or you're over indexing on what somebody might be thinking is that you practice zigging when you know you know that the the pull is the zag so to speak so so that i love that when i hear that from you and i think that's right on the money the second part is when we get older. Is that your question?

Yeah. I think that can go two ways. I think of professors that are tenured and safe in their career. Tenured meaning that they can't get fired. Say and do just about anything. Not really. But they've got this incredible freedom to be academically and intellectually adventurous. And that requires some freedom to do that, the freedom and the fear of not getting fired,

I should say. So there's a freedom in that type of security. So that's less about what people are going to think because there's a freedom that they have and a permission and a support to go pursue. And then I think about the most frail of folks that are like old that they can no longer use their body. Well, yeah, we better try to figure out how to be inside the pack because if we can't keep up in some kind of way or we don't feel safe and protected, the wolves of the world will pluck us off.

So there's that that part and while our physical decline takes place which is normal and natural hopefully our intellectual emotional and psychological prowess is developing so we we hold a sense of insight and wisdom that we can offer others and knowing that our physical decline is something that is they need to help us with so there's there's continually a relationship between ourselves and and the pack if you will um but i think you can go either way it depends on some of the conditions that your your unique life has gotcha finding master is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building

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And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out, get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. All right, so the next question is from Charlie.

I'm so excited for your book. Congrats. Is FOPO, for other people's opinion, something you've seen with everybody, even those athletes and musicians you work with? Even as I'm typing this, maybe it's more detrimental to them oh that's a good question so what that question to me is like i hear is this i have it do others have it you know and is it worse for some extraordinary performers the

short version of a long story is i had fear of people's opinions, this too much of a worry about what other people think for a long time in my life. And I didn't like it. I knew it was there and I didn't like it. I was good at figuring out how to be social in social settings. And so there's a chameleon effect that I had developed that served me well, but there was a compromise to that. And so I didn't have language around it. I didn't have a way to really understand it. And I kept it private, like embarrassingly so that I was really, I would overthink about what you might think of me. And I worried about that. And of course it's unique to my upbringing, it's unique to my circumstances, blah, blah, blah.

But I didn't talk about it because, like I said, I was embarrassed about it. And then I started studying the psychology of excellence and spending time with best in the world. And they would bring something up very similar to it. I was like, I'm not alone. And so we'd process that and we developed some insights around how to help people through that. I say we, it's like me and the mouse in my pocket, but we meaning the performer and myself in a live laboratory, because I didn't know the best science to stand on. All we had is like

different forms of anxiety and how to work through anxiety, but this was just a little bit different. And so we started to develop some insights and practices around how to work through this worry about what people might think. And then when I was doing the research on this book, Beethoven had it. Beethoven had FOPO, one of the greatest of all time somebody who has absolutely set the standard for genius expression in music and other forms and beethoven was identif identified himself as being the best and then his hearing went and he was so ashamed about his hearing. He's got this great insight, like how could somebody as perfect as I am in music have such a malady that my hearing is gone? What will they think of me? And he goes into, first he plays a game and the game he played

was he couldn't really hear people or he could only hear bits of what people were saying. So he would present as if he was in this creative rapture. That's a word that he used to describe this place that he would go to, the rapture, this passionate, creative, internal space. And he would play like as he was walking amongst us, that he was in his raptus, but he actually couldn't hear. So he was doing this social thing to present like he was okay, but he wasn't, couldn't hear. And then when it became so bad for him that he really couldn't hear, he went away. He went away for years. And he went into his creative cave and he became a bit of a recluse. And it was dark, suicidally dark,

deeply depressed, overwhelmed by trying to figure out how to express his art. And he couldn't tune to the music outside of him. He couldn't hear anything. So he had to listen to the music inside of him, the art inside of him. And, and he worked through that depression, suicidality. And one of the things that we wildly know Beethoven for is,

right. You know, a symphony number five. And that happened during his deaf phase and so he never got his hearing back i don't want to say like it came back as the story goes as the not the myth of it but what's it called the um the allure of the story is that that was him pounding his fist on the piano like why can't i hear and they said, wait, that's music. And so it turned in. So he used in some forms, his frustration and his fear and his overwhelmment of not being able

to express the art that he knew how to command at the highest level. And he had to now do it in a new way. And it created one of the greatest works of art ever. And so Beethoven, when it comes to classical music, is punk rock and he is radical and he's right in there. And I don't think he's a healthy human or was a healthy human. He was very complicated. From a young age, his dad manipulated even the age that he was. So he was having to present like he was younger because virtuosos were young. And so he had this very complicated, propped up image that he had to hold for his whole life. Then he loses the one thing that the most exceptional musicians are supposed to fully command, hearing and tuning of music. And so, yeah, I had it. I'm not comparing myself to Beethoven by any means.

And then so many of the folks that I spend time with and even the great Beethoven, I think it's available and present for most of us. All right, a quick little pause here to shout out our title sponsor of this AMA, Carol Bike. You heard us talking about them at the beginning of the episode, and maybe, O'Neal, you want to take this thing out. If you don't want one for yourself, don't forget the holidays right around the corner. Consider making a family or, you know, friend's day with a Carol bike. Dr. Mike and the Finding Mastery team are hooking all of us up with a great offer. Just head over to carolbike.com, C-A-R-O-L, bike.com, and enter the code FindingMastery at the checkout for $250 off your order. This offer is only valid till January 15th.

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So it's Carol bike, C-A-R-O-L bike, B-I-K-E.com. And let's jump right back into our questions. Okay. Do you, do you recognize a worry at any form or any part of your life, a worry of what others might think of you. One of the probably main ones, number one on my list is being at the age that I'm at and not being where I think I should be in life. People looking at me and saying, I think you're a really talented person. I've even, some time ago, maybe 15, 16 years ago, I had a landlord because I was going through a whole bunch of different things and I was getting evicted.

And the landlord walked up to me and he put his hand on my shoulder and he's like, you know, Neil, I just don't understand why all these things are happening to you and you're going through all these things. You're one of the most talented people I've ever met in my life. I don't understand. This shouldn't be happening to you. And he just walked away. And it kind of played into things that I've heard since I was young. So you take those things

and you apply it to where you are in life currently or in the present time. And then you're like, man, I'm not what people think that I am. That's what I've been told for so long. Therein lies like an on-ramp to F po is like what are they thinking about my condition in life where are they thinking about my success or failure or how i'm doing in life that's an on-ramp to faux po that's that in essence is it so it takes many forms obviously you don't have faux

po about the way you dress okay let's be clear i should have known that was coming yeah no i i don't have FOPO about the way you dress. Okay, let's be clear. I should have known that was coming. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't. You know what's interesting? What you were just saying about Beethoven and how when you saw that Beethoven had FOPO and you're like, okay, it sort of maybe,

correct me if I'm wrong here, sort of unconsciously gave you this permission to experience it and go through it, right? Which is so crazy because I remember, and God, I still do this every blue moon. I can't remember. Did you say every blue moon? Every blue moon. Like every blue sweater?

No. I'm never wearing a sweater again. It's really, you're, you're, you're. Is this, is this like critique? You're deconstructing what you built right now from the book on me. No, and you know what's funny, like before you get to the blue moon idea

is that I am having, I'm having fun with like the blue sweater, but that doesn't mean you are. So before, and like, as a proponent for like, go for it in life and be you and do your thing and dah, dah, dah, and I hope that you're not and like as a proponent for like go for it in life and be you and do your thing and dah, dah, dah. And I hope that my fun with your blue sweaters is actually not a subtle little critique

and criticism and judgment. Like, cause I'm not coming from that place. No, actually you're giving me attention. It makes me feel good about myself. That's twisted, right? That's even more complicated. Yeah, that's good. That's's another whole other segment I'm like give me some attention let me light myself on fire

blue fire so I'm enjoying it that's the twisted side of me what was I gonna say oh yeah when you discovering Beethoven you know having faux poignant unconsciously giving you this permission to you know work through it right because you're like okay the great had it.

So, you know, I've never told anybody this, but I gotta talk about this now, cause it's just, I can't let it go. What I would do every blue moon, I would get on Google and I'd Google like actors that started their careers late in life. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I'm gonna go back.

Yeah, there's a couple. Oh yeah, there's a couple, okay. Yeah, yeah. Actors that started their careers in in life. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Go, go, go, go. Yeah, there's a couple. Oh yeah. There's a couple, okay. Yeah, yeah. Actors that started their careers in their late 30s. Oh God, okay. And so forth and so on, because I needed to see, I needed to see these people that are in the same situation and circumstance that I'm in.

And I need to know that they made it through because it will give me permission to go through it and some hope that I can get through it as well. Isn't that amazing? Like the safety we feel in numbers is so biological. Matter of fact, if somebody does one thing three times versus three people that do one thing one time, we feel safer amongst that group of three people that do one thing one time, we feel safer amongst that group of three people

that did the one thing versus around the one person that did it three times. So safety in numbers is what that's about. And so the one wild person that raises their hand on a jury that says, I disagree with the crowd, they might be the crazy ones. But if two raise their hand, it's like, whoa, maybe something's going on here.

So there's something about safety in numbers and crowd that is so biological. It's so neurological that I think in many cases, we need to recognize and honor that. And at the same time, recognize and honor that it could suck us into wanting just approval and fearing rejection. That's the essence of this book, The First Rule of Mastery, is to recognize the pull for acceptance, how that can help you and debilitate some of your artistic expressions in life. And that very subtle, sensitive scanning the world for even the hint of rejection might be one of the great culprits to the potential that lies dormant for many of us. And I want to add that Beethoven,

scores of clients that I've spent time with, myself, people I know and love, you're not alone. Meaning people are not alone in this worry of what other people think of them. This is one of the reasons I wrote this book is that there is a path through it. There is a clear way to understand best practices to find that sense of freedom from this anxiousness and this worry about what others might think of us. And just the idea that this is not something that is private for just you or, you know, I'm not speaking to you directly. This is a moment for people to recognize that they're not alone in the success of worry

about what other people think of them. And there's a path forward. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because I was just thinking to myself, like, okay, now I don't have to Google at what age. Use your book. And it'll help me out more than me doing the same. I've been trying to get out of that habit. It's such a, for lack of a better word, for me, a mind fuck.

Because there's a part of me that's like,'m not i'm not going with a group of the crowd i'm not i i can i can stand alone i can i can do this by myself because i'll make some discoveries i don't have to worry about you do you like thump your chest when you say it yeah and by myself though yeah yeah but i recognize that too like the bold out front, you know, that lonely, you know, I recognize the value in that as well. And do you also recognize the pull to be part of? I do for me, but only in the sense that I know with a group you can get farther. I know that with a group you can get farther

and as a team you can get farther. I know that. With a group, you can get farther, and as a team, you can get farther. My experiences have pushed me away from that because there's a lot of crazy things that happen within the group. You have to deal with different personalities. You sometimes have to follow a person that you don't deem worthy to follow. There's the herd mentality when you just want to be an individual,

but everyone's trying to get on the same page and think the same way. I guess for lack of a better, I fear getting lost in the collective. Okay. So we, we wrestle that down as well, because sometimes this is going to sound harsh, but sometimes the people that are the most resistant to your change are the ones that you're closest to. So your aunt and uncle, mom, dad, spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, they like who you are. they've made a choice to be around you a lot and when you say I want to be completely different I want to

make a billion dollars I want to wear blue sweaters I want to do whatever I want to do and it's different than the operating system that they feel safe with there's a pull back to the norm, to the average. There's a pull to keep you inside the fence. And sometimes the most dangerous people are the ones that care about us the most. They're the most dangerous because they're pulling us into a place where they feel safe. And that is biological and normal as well. And we just want to raise the flag to say there are a set of practices to deploy to free up. And as long as you know what some of the tendencies are, then you can accept them and work with

them. And so I'm just jacked on the book and I'm jacked on like where we landed on the research and the very applied nature throughout the book book so thank you for bringing it up and um i you know i hope people are are interested in it or i actually i hope people recognize that there is a different way yeah i mean you're you're welcome and congrats on the book uh i i'm i love it for selfish reasons i'm looking forward to unlock more of my fashion. There we go. More of your fashion, you said?

Yeah. I can't wait to wear maybe bat wings in here or something. Okay. Before we go on, I think this could be a question. It's not, but you brought it up, is this idea of my age, my level of success relative to the standards that somebody holds. Whether it's an idea that you held for yourself at a young age or your parents held or your community holds or what Instagram holds, whatever, right? There's a standard. And for a while, I think we drank this idea that success is some metric of external success.

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between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion, just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at Felix gray.com for 20% off house in the top of the Hill, whatever it might be. All right. So cool. And there's nothing wrong

with external rewards and successes. They're cool. No problems at all. If you can afford four gold watches, this is my father-in-law saying this. If somebody can afford four gold watches, great. Make sure you can afford them now, right? Okay. It's his second beat. But I think that there's an opportunity for us to redefine success in a way that when I think about success, and I'd love to hear your thought on it, is that the new wealth, so old wealth could buy a lot, but new wealth is about vitality. New wealth is about a glow. It's about this sense of buoyancy and a deep flourishing in life where you walk in and because of that glow, you literally might glow from like your skin might glow, that twinkle behind your eye happens, but there's just this spark and spirit.

Money's not going to necessarily be the thing to buy that. Money can provide maybe some time. I'm time poor. So money is like not the answer here, but a commitment to learn how to work from the inside out to have that, what I would call a new wealth, that spark, that creative essence of life. I'm way more interested in that at this phase of my life. So I wonder if you could, cause you have that. And I wonder if you, you could think through like expanding or contouring, you know, the way that you think about success in a way that

might give you a little bit of space in there. Yeah, you know, that's been the topic of conversation with us for quite some time now. And I'm still sorting through that because I think unconsciously, I know that vitality, you know, community, your health, all these things are what the new wealth is. I know that, right? And I tend to those things.

I try to tend to them as best as my ability. I think I do it well. But the way of the world, the programming that was occurring when I was coming up for most of us, it's still. Let me ask this question. Do you think, it's not by his question,

but do you think that, um, the health of the world is an a, a B, a C, a D and F. Like what grade do you give the health of the world? An F. An F.

An F. However, see the logic dilemma here. However, so according to the way of the world, which I think is failing, okay, from a success metric or whatever, I'm pulled to want to be part of that. That makes me short circuit a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you square those two? I'm short circuiting too.

I ask myself that question. Like, I know this is a horrible model. I know this is not something. I know this is failing. And that's why I'm tending to the vitality side of it. Yeah. I'm giving maybe the vitality side 70%. Who do you know that's got that inner fire that's like alive, like,

And is absolved of all the worldly things? No, maybe it has both or, or, but just, I'm just saying in and of itself has like this, they are the emblem for the spirit of life. I'm not, I'm not biased when I say this, I'm not being biased because I'm not a biased person, actually. I'm all about the grand. We're all subjective beings.

I would say Kaisa. Let me give you an example. Yes, let me give you an example. Today I was in the bathroom and you know know the bathroom's my office i was doing some work in there and uh i hear this loud and i jump up and i'm like what's going on is somebody breaking in and somebody coming but she's wishing her niece happy birthday this is her 24 7 almost to the point where you know when i first met her like, yo, I feel like you kind of fake with your happiness. That's my problem.

You're checking. That's my issue. It's my hang up. I'm like, you can't love everybody. You can't be excited about everything. You can't be a cheerleader for every single person. But she is. She's vibrant all the time. And sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and you know,

I'm a morning person, but I'm a curmudgeon morning person, right? And she'll be like, I need you to calm down. I need you to be a little happier in the morning, be a little nicer and whatnot. And I'm like, why are you so happy? Why are you always smiling?

Why are you always happy for something people get? She bought some M&Ms. Why are you happy about her buying some M&Ms? Yeah. I marvel at that. I marvel at people that can be excited for the littlest things

that we deem. She ain't by building downtown New York City. Why are you hyped by her buying some M&Ms? And I'm also trying to find that within myself. Like, how can I be like that?

How can I be hyped over things that I deem, for lack of a better word, insignificant, right? Yeah, that is so cool, man, to have people in your life that are close, a partner that has that fire that you're wanting more of. Like, I wish that for all of us. Next question's from John from Washington.

I've always wanted to pursue a career in the arts, but my family has different expectations for me. How can I follow my passion without letting the opinions of my loved ones hinder my path? Ah, I'm going to, I want to defer to you. Oh man. You knew this was coming probably, right? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I want to skip this question.

Yeah. You know, I, but just like like a first response here is like it's a lovely question it it's just i mean again this is just a the richness of the questions and the the depth of them, that's a lovely question. And so how do you square that for yourself? I mean, at the risk of sounding cliche, which I'm probably gonna still sound cliche, is I would just say, think about what you love to, what you would do even if you didn't get paid for it.

For me, it's that simple. What would I do even if I didn't get paid for it. For me, it's that simple. What would I do even if I didn't get paid for it? Everyone knows I like to talk. I like to make people laugh. I like to perform. So it was, it just made sense to me to pursue this. You know what I mean? And I know that for my mental health, right?

And my spiritual health, that I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't get a nine to five job. I couldn't, I didn't want to be a doctor. I couldn't do it because I wouldn't be O'Neal. And man, I'm really, I hope this doesn't sound egotistical, but I'm really in love with who I am. I love myself.

And I don't want to lose any part of myself to a job or anything. I just don't. And I would, and this is, i would gamble my i would gamble my life on it i would just gamble my life on it you know because i even if i'm on my deathbed and from my and i don't reach what i think is my expectation for myself i just want to um know that i went all out and i went after what i wanted to do something that made me happy something that just filled o'neill up i just uh that that's the

way i want to go out that's just that I want that for me, for people I love, is to have that sense of love and the commitment to honor the growth of who that person is becoming. So it's a windy road life is. It's an adventure. I don't think it's a journey. Some people feel like passengers uh i feel like we can all be adventures in in in our life and there's no charted path so it's part of the adult life is to figure out who you are and dress accordingly

and um and i don't mean that literally you know know, to blue sweaters and such. But I do, but I do mean like know who you are and then you figure out how to love that, all of you, that is radical. So I'm wishing the more artistry for more people. Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Mm-hmm. Do you know people that seemingly from the outside

are on the top of the mountain, and then when you have conversations, you think their life is a certain way, and then when you have conversations with them, you come to the realization that they're just highly depressed and just unsatisfied with the current situation that they're just highly depressed and just unsatisfied with the current situation that they're in but to the outside world they seem to be in this amazing situation i had someone tell me one time a successful person tell me there's nothing worse than climbing all

the way up to the mountain and then realizing that you have to die on that mountain you know and it kind of opened my eyes to what I want and what I thought I wanted at least, you know? And that's just a situation that I never wanted to be in. But do you know people like that? And if so, right, if so, what do you think played, because this is a question that I've asked myself a million times,

what do you think plays into staying in a situation that really doesn't cater to who you are? Let me add one asterisk to the first part of the question, which is, do I know people that publicly are the emblem of success and then privately struggle? If you said severely depressed, I can say yes to that. And then I would, if we didn't say severely depressed, but said struggling, that their inner life and outer life are not in perfect pitch, that there's a difference between the public life and the private life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I'm going to put a big word out here and say, I want to say all, but I know that that's unreasonable. So most people, their public life and private life are not tuned. And there's plenty of people that are just really happy. They've kind of cracked a good life. They've got good genetic coding. They've got the right internal and external resources. And like, you know, there's plenty of people there. But so many people that I know that are on the world stage have a dark side, a troubling side, an unsettledness because they jumped on the treadmill

of high performance early and they wanted to jump on, they didn't realize it, but really what they wanted was a different treadmill. And when you say the mountaintop piece, there's an insight from a person who is a radical explorer. And I'm gonna keep the industry and obviously the name private here. And the insight was said back to me is like, Mike, I want you to understand

the places I've gone and the experiences I've had are amazing. And I don't have anybody in my life that knows how those things smell and feel. And I don't, I am so lonely because I've spent my whole life climbing the mountain that I don't know anyone that's seen those sunsets and those berries. I'm adding some like concreteness here just to bring it home. So there's a loneliness in some respects to committing to being your very best that is not for most people. And so we prop up this aspirational, like be a hero of your own life and go for it when there is a loneliness and a dark side

that needs to be squared to do that. And most people, when they even get close to it, like shudder. So I'm answering a couple of things here. One is there's a dark side that is not talked about. And I don't think we're really even ready publicly to talk about it. We're better than five years ago than we were 50 years ago but it's still in there and so uh private lives and public lives are not tuned for most people do you want to tune those two i do i i do badly i i really do um you can it's possible yeah see that that's that's good news yeah it's good to hear it takes it takes

risk and um this is what this i keep coming back to the book but like that's this is a big part of the book is the vulnerability to take the risk um to be authentically tuned to what is true for you that is rare it takes time and practice and and we're all a work in progress, but it is possible. The scary thing about wanting that, right, is not having many examples of that. Because again, right, I Google to see the examples

to feel comfortable, to be like, okay, all right, I'm in good, I'm in decent company. Okay, these people. When you don't have that example in front of you or you, you know, I'm not saying they don't exist, but when you don't have that example in front of you, or you, you know, I'm not saying they don't exist, but when you don't have that in front of you,

to go after that undiscovered country and to be the pioneer in your realm or in your area is a scary thing, because you're like, man, I don't have an example of this. So I certainly can't be that example. When actually you can be, right? Yeah, of course we can. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cool. All right, last question. Dr. Mike, during social gatherings, I sometimes feel like I'm on the outside looking in, even if I'm surrounded by close friends or family. Can you explain why someone might feel this way and offer suggestions on how to engage more fully in the moment?

Could this be a description of dissociation where you, you, you feel like you're not in your own self and, and this is a serious clinical disorder. I doubt it. I doubt that's what's happening, but as a, you know,

decision tree that, that I, I work through often with, with hearing and feeling what's happening with a question, that pops up for me. Like, is this a true psychological condition? Let's say it's not. Let's say this is just like, I feel like I'm not part of it.

Okay. Is that because we're thinking about depression? That sense of isolation and loneliness, even amongst others, is one of the two criteria or hallmarks of depression. So maybe there's something there. Maybe it is something to do with self-esteem. Maybe it's this inner narrative that is related to, I don't know if I belong, and I'm going to check in to see if I'm okay. I'm going to check in the eyes and body language of others to see if they're accepting me. And once I do that and I find cues that they're seeing me as favorable, then I feel more invited into the pack.

That's dangerous as a way to go through life. So I'm ruling out a couple of conditions maybe maybe the questioner here has goes oh that i do feel dissociated i feel like i'm just not in my body anywhere i feel like i'm not like there's like something really different about me that so go check that out or maybe it's just good old depression most humans go through one episode of depression in their life. If you're fortunate, you only have one. Cool. If you're somebody that has more than five episodes of a depressive experience, and there's criteria for a depressive episode, you're likely to have recurring episodes of depression throughout your life. So if you fall into that category, it's hard to feel part of something when you don't feel part of your own self,

when you've got this part of you that is sad and lonely and depressed. So explore that. And the other one is like, maybe you're just speaking to yourself a certain way that isn't like propping you up and you're not backing you that's good old cognitive behavioral training can get in there and help like self-talk training and and and and then the last one like i said is like sometimes we outsource our sense of being okay and um all of those could be available to this person and then i don't like is there anything else that pops up for you that um the way you hear it and read through that question? I don't know, it's interesting because if I'm not using my phone to escape, right? Is that what you're doing?

In social gatherings, if I feel awkward, I rarely do I ever feel awkward, but when it does hit me, it hits me hard, right? And I use my phone for escaping some love. Or if I'm not using my phone. You use it as a signal that you've got something important happening? Yes. I'm talking about to the point where, you know, I'm faking it.

There's nothing on the phone. I'm just like, okay, so. Yeah, right. But I'm looking at. Yeah, it's a signal. It's a social signal that, hey, I got something going on over here. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, like, I'm good.

Hold on. I'll be over to you guys when I decide precisely yeah i got big things happening i got big i got big things happening i'm looking for another blue sweater you know what i'm saying um or i i search for my people right i search for people in a social setting yeah that i can relate to like like-minded individuals I'll eavesdrop on conversations. That's crazy because I got that too. Something that I can latch on to to see that you're my people. That's super savvy.

The classic punch bowl thing. You're getting some water, you're getting some food or hors d'oeuvres. I go over there too. It's Jesus crazy, right? It's Jesus Jesus. And then you start that conversation up. Rarely am I standing in a corner by myself, right?

But when I am standing in a corner by myself, the rare times it happens, it's overwhelming. Sadness or anxiousness for you? Anxious. And I feel like it's overwhelming because I'm so accustomed to finding a way of ingratiating myself with people. Like that's my skill, right?

I can come into a room and find my people or fake it like I have something important going on or talk about food or find something relatable. What would you do if you didn't pull to the phone drug? What would be another way to not use that drug? The phone drug? Yeah, the phone drug. What would be another way to not use that drug? The phone drug? Yeah, the phone drug. What do you mean?

What are the other ways that you work with that tension? I mean, I guess the two other ways that I talked about, like finding some common ground, but that takes effort, Dr. Mike, that takes effort. Why would I do that when I got my phone in my pocket? I love hearing you talk about the charismatic, handsome, athletic O'Neal, you know, uh, the intelligent human that you are to be able to say, yeah, I get awkward too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm for sure. I feel like it's what you said earlier. I feel like, um, the feeling of being awkward is even heavier

because the expectation that you put on yourself, like I'm expected to fit in, or people expect me to fit in with them immediately when I walk in, like, what's up, I'm O'Neal. Hey, what's going on? What a party at? And sometimes I walk in there like, man, I don't wanna be here, or this feels really weird.

I don't feel like I should be here. You know, so. I don't want to be here or this feels really weird. I don't feel like I should be here. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that state is under your state of being and the internal collision of chemistry and electricity and the frameworks that you're operating from are an important thing to also note is that if you're fatigued, if you just had a meal or hadn't had a meal, if you are agitated from something or overwhelmed, like all of that state of being is often discounted. And then we expect that we're supposed to rise to some sort of occasion of gregarious social, but the state is really important to honor. And when we become better attuned to the internal state,

we are better able to be connected externally or to be okay being in a private way in a public setting. And so that just honoring the state of being, I think is really important too. You're a genius. Oh, you're a genius. That happened to me recently and it was the state.

It was the state, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Are you going to explain that? I didn't want to, but okay, well, I knew you were going

to drag it out of me. I was at an event with someone and we had had a long, two days, was it? Two days and we didn't get any sleep and whatnot

and then I had to go to a family gathering and I just wasn't myself. I was tired. I didn't feel like talking to anybody. I didn't even feel like being social. And- Pre-family anxiety. No, you know, it wasn't even that.

It wasn't, I was just, it was the state. It was exactly- Agitated or tired? Yes. Both or one? Both. I was agitated and tired. Yes. Both or one? Both. I was agitated and tired. And I was trying to be a trooper and hang in there and whatnot. And I think my level of irritation was heightened because I was mad at myself.

Like, come on, man. This is you. You're O'Neal. Go talk to somebody. Make them fall in love with you. Go talk to this person. Make everybody just circle around you. And you're O'Neal.

Do what you do. And I was upset that I couldn't do that. There's a lot of like work there. As opposed to like, I'm gonna go be me. But then being me in that particular state though, Dr. Mike, being me in that particular state meant that I was gonna sit down, which is what I did and not talk to anybody.

And that- What would happen if you did that? Say, hey, everyone, I'm in a way right now. I love you guys. I'm agitated as hell. And I'm going to go sit and hang. They judge me. That's cool. They'd feel like I was-

They will. Yeah. Thank you. They will. They will. Yeah. And so I long for that. I long for that, you know, that candor where I can just be like, hey, listen, I don't know nobody here, but I don't want to talk to none of y'all.

I'm just here with her, but I'm tired. Nobody talk to me. That's a little much. That's a little much, right? That's a little much. Were you with your family or not with your family? I was with her family. Yeah.

Yeah. So that makes it a little trickier. It makes it very tricky, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i long for the two i long for that i i see that as a a lofty ambition is to be um you know a bit more uh eloquent in authenticity yeah yeah so cool there's work for us to do now there's work for us to do yeah yeah There's work for us to do. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you. I appreciate you more. Thank you. All right. It's been amazing.

All right. All right. All the best. Thank you. You as well. All right. That's a wrap for another AMA on Finding Mastery. I want to thank you for tuning in. And one more thank you to our title sponsor for this episode. It would not be possible without them, Carol Bike. And again, I really love their product and what they're doing. And I think it could make a big difference in your life as well. So if you're interested in learning more,

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