Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Suffer Smarter: Sean Waxman on Harnessing Pain for Growth

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

What if suffering wasn’t just something to endure but a tool to unlock your full potential? Today’s guest is Sean Waxman—a renowned strength and conditioning coach, former Olympic weightlifter, and author of the transformative book Suffer Smarter. He’s also been a close friend for nearly 30 years and someone I constantly enjoy learning from.Sean’s journey is one of resilience, transformation, and purpose. I do not say those words lightly. He turned the heartbreak of missing the Olympics into a mission to help others discover their own inner strength—both physically and mentally.Sean’s insights are practical, raw, and deeply inspiring—a powerful reminder of the lessons waiting in life’s hardest moments._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. What if suffering wasn't just something to endure, but a tool to unlock your full potential? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. Today's guest is Sean Waxman.

First and foremost, he is a close friend for nearly 30 years. He's a renowned strength and conditioning coach, former Olympic weightlifter, and author of the transformative book, Suffer Smarter. Sean's journey, it is one of resilience and transformation. It's one of purpose. And I do not use those words lightly. He turned the heartbreak of missing the Olympics into a mission to help others discover their own inner strength, both physically and mentally. Sean's insights are well-earned, they're practical, they're raw, they're deeply inspiring.

And I hope this conversation is a powerful reminder of the lessons that are waiting in life's hardest moments. So with that, let's jump right into this incredible conversation with Sean Waxman. Sean, this is a real treat. It's something, man. So we went to grad school together. We did. We had the chance to know each other and watch each other's careers. And really, you helped me form much of my language, definitely in the early stages about when there was a handful. It was you, Ken Vick, Rico Ciparelli.

I want to bring those names up because it was like, it was a bit of a rat pack of, you know, Rico Ciparelli was a UFC head coach. He was a multiple national champion in Iowa, a wrestling World Cup champion. He was one of the early adopters of the UFC coaching. The Raw Gym, which we were both involved with, was one of the first MMA gyms in the country. He started Randy Couture.

He started Dan Henderson, some of the OG early MMA guys. It was electric. It was unbelievable. And we got a chance to be passengers in that world. And it was electric. It was unbelievable. And we got a chance to, to, to, to be passengers in that world. And it was fantastic. Most people in my community don't know the origin story of my craft. This will be fun in a lot of ways, just to like, in some parts reminisce and some parts, like I want to for sure highlight the adventure that you've been on to go inward, to go deep, to be honest. And that's like your journey, which you're ringing the bell for all

of us to do the same. And also like, so you've got a book, Suffer Smarter, like what suffering is, why it's so powerful. And this third mechanism i want to make sure we hit on is you know how to bring the best out of people you're a coach not a life coach you are a strength and conditioning coach do i have that right or do you are you at the conditioning and and weightlifting right so olympic i uh weightlifting is really the the surgical part of what i do yeah olympic sport you know precise output so that's the the strength and conditioning is a is a is a passion your base is olympic lifting coaching olympic that's my dna yeah and you started as an athlete you became a coach in that and then you you use that as your base to help

others yeah through strength and conditioning be better at something else as well yeah now now the journey is how do i use those lessons to help you and me yeah we're far from athletes now yeah that's right so that i think that that's what the listener wants more than anything is like okay how does this well-traveled high flyer in the world of coaching help me the listener be just a little bit better as a mom as as a dad, as a engineer, as a manager, as a director, CEO, whatever it might be. How does this apply to me? And the lessons that we learn on the mat, the lessons that we learn on the platform, the lessons we learn on the pitch or the field on how to help people, whether it's from my lenses psychologically or your lenses

technically as a strength and conditioning coach, less Olympic weightlifting coach, those lessons apply to all of us. So that will be part of the through line, I think, for today. But I want to start with this, failure. You had all the makings to be on the world stage and potentially win at the highest level. Yes. It didn't happen.

No. And again, you and I go way back. So this is not insensitive. This is like there's three, four, five of us that really kind of came up, if you will, together. And you were the one that was still half in science, half in like going for it. You're fully going for it as an athlete.

And then you knew that the real love was coaching. So let's just talk about failure. I had Amy Edmondson on the other day, psychological safety. She's got a new book on failure. She's dedicated so much of her life about it. She's got three types of failure that she highlighted, intelligent failure, complex failure, and basic failure. I don't want to open those up now, but you can see what she's pointing to. Intelligent failure makes sense. Basic and complex are kind of like damn what just happened what what is your take on failure in life failure in sport failure in a lift like how do you think about

failure because i know how how much you wanted it yeah and i'm not calling you a failure i'm just saying you didn't get the thing that you wanted? Like most things, it depends, right, on how you experience failure. I think it's an incredibly valuable tool, both in the moment and down the road, right? I think, but you have to be paying attention, right? You have to pay attention to the lessons learned, right? That's more of the longitudinal benefit of failure. But in the moment, what am I doing wrong and how do I make those corrections? So it's about attention. So I think that if you're paying attention, spending some time with it,

I think people make a mistake by saying, I'm just going to forget about this. It's bullshit. I think it's a mistake. I think failure make a mistake by saying, I'm just going to forget about this. It's bullshit. I think it's a mistake. I think failure is a sign that something's wrong. Something's wrong. Sometimes it's in your control. Sometimes it's out of your control. But the stuff that's in your control, man, you've got to pay attention to that.

So failure is really a book of lessons. And what you do with those lessons, everybody's different. Man, I love hearing your thinking. I'm nodding my head to all of it. Let me pull on the thread a little bit. Pay attention to what? The whys, right? The questions.

Why is this happening? What am I doing wrong? How do I do it differently? Those are the questions that we have to pay attention to. This is fresh because I was recently talking to Amy and she's like, failure is when you don't reach your goals, what you intended to. And I go, I don't see it that way. No, I don't see it that way either.

No. That's why I wanted to talk, because I know how bad you wanted to be an Olympian. Right. I mean, 2000 was your target. Yeah, that was the target. Yeah. And it didn't happen.

I don't see anything about your life as a failure. 2000 was your target. Yeah, that was the target. Yeah, and it didn't happen. I don't see anything about your life as a failure. But I'm thinking about how Amy was kind of couching it that it's not getting the things that you want. You and I both know that elite sport, there's, I mean, it's a very narrow thread. I did get what I want though. Yeah, this is where I wanted to go with you. I got this skillset, you know, and, and here I am, I haven't competed on a stage in, I don't know, 20, 20

years, 25 years, whatever it is. But yeah, all those things are that I experienced the failures, the successes, uh, are the reason why i'm here in this studio with you when you say skill set you know how to help people lift heavy weights quickly with precision yeah you know how to help people be mobile dynamic whatever i've done i fill in the blanks like you know how to help somebody be a great athlete right i think when you said skill set it was not no yeah so when you said skill set, it was not only. Yeah. So when you said skillset, what did you mean? There's a way to live in high performance. I'll keep going. Right. And I do this a lot with my kids, with my, with my high school kids. You know, I tell them all the time. I was

like, this isn't about football. You know, being on time, there's nothing to do about football. You know, making sure that you, you, you touch the line. There's nothing to do about football. You know, making sure that you touch the line. There's nothing to do about football. These are the things that you have to do to be a better man, better husband, you know, a better son, a better boss, a better employee. It's the skill set is the skill sets of being a high performer in the world. Sports is such a small part of our life as far as the participation. If you're just doing it just to win, you're missing the meat. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment

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Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might

be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip

cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So there was this meme video that was around, maybe it was like, I don't know, last year sometime. And it was this coach sitting down with a bunch of 10 year olds says, all right, listen, how many of you have heard the phrase that we're here to get better and it's not all about winning and all the kids raise their hand. many of you have heard that you know it doesn't matter what happens as the outcome this season is going to be about us getting better and learning out

how to be better in in sport and in life and all the kids raise their hand and the coach says right if your dad taught you that he's a loser whoa yeah that's not cool. And it was, I think it was like a meme to making fun of it, you know, but so how do you ring that bell? Which is like, wait, hold on. You and I both know if you don't win on, if I don't help a professional team win or an executive team win, they fly back on their jet. Right. Contract canceled, you know, right right so winning is necessary to continue playing yeah so how do you how do you straddle that need for outcome and the commitment required to grow and risk that is associated with winning potentially you know it, it's one of the main reasons why I don't do much work anymore with professional athletes. You could do everything right and still not win. There are

things that are out of your control that just happen. But the thing you can control is your process, how you prepare, the decisions you make, all those things you can control. And often when you are buttoned up with all that, the result is pretty good. I want to know your take on a high performance life or like what, like open that up a little bit. And I do want to see how you stitch what you would say a high-performing process to live a high-performing life. And so if you think about an X, Y axis for just a minute, and I often create this bit of a dilemma for folks and say, X, Y axis. On the vertical axis, it's standards. Is it the world standard or is it your very best? So at the top, it's world standards. They set the standards of what winning is,

or you do, and it's at the bottom. On the horizontal, it is process and outcome. So you can see that for me, it's a conundrum because I'm asking people who defines what winning is. If it's you, is it about your outcomes, lower left, or is it you about your process? And the trap in that is that, because this is where you're going to go, right? It's about you setting your standards of what

winning is and having a high performing process. And the trap in that, which I agree to as well, that's how I've designed my life. That's how I designed just about everything I do. Believing that when you have a high performing process that is high standards, high consistency, high grit, fill in the blanks, love and a passion, a connection with other people, and a love affair with learning, that the results will happen. The trap, though, is that we have a naivete about what it really takes to express what we're capable of, because we're not referencing properly what others are capable and what others are doing.

And so that's one of the traps of our model of life. The other trap is you're like, listen, winning is about being one, two, three best in the world. It's the podium. And it's being just, yeah, if you can be your best, great. But it comes down to like being better than other people. You know the traps there. There's tons of them riddled with anxiety, da, da, if you can be your best, great. But it's comes down to like being better than other people. You know, the traps there, there's tons of riddled with anxiety. So question that I asked, open up how you're defining what a high performance life is and what a high performance

process to support that life is. I don't know if there's much difference. I think they're both connected. Yeah. So I don't think you can have one without the other. That's how committed you are to the process. You're saying if you're living a high-performance process, that is by definition a high-performance life because life is a process. My framework on strength and conditioning is this.

My thought process with that is the same on how I look at these questions, because what we do with our athletes is really not measurable. Just because somebody is squatting, whatever, or doing power cleaning, whatever, it doesn't necessarily have a direct correlation to performance in the sport. I think most people would be surprised to know what you and I know that what you can squat does not translate to more. No, no. Whatever you can do in the gym

does not translate to success in the gym or on the field, which most people are like, wait, if you're bigger, faster, stronger, you're going to be bigger, faster, stronger on the field which most people are like wait if you're bigger faster stronger you're going to be bigger faster stronger on the field yes but there's a lot more to it so you know when people when i when teams bring me in or to do you know to work with them and you know how do you like evaluate what we do how do you and you can you can, you know, if you have a, if you go to my friends at Alabama, he's a strength coach at Alabama, you go to Alabama and you look at. The Panera winning program. Yeah.

Like, they win a lot. They win a lot. And you see, like, what the guys, you know, 600 pounds, 700 pounds, this and that. So is it because they squat 600, 700 pounds, is they're winning national championships? Or are they just freaks? So it can't be absolute output.

You can't measure that for success. So what I look at is I look at how everybody moves. Does everybody move the same way? Is everybody doing things the same way? Because then I know that the process that they're using to teach movement, which is, you know, is a manifestation of the coach's acumen. And to be clear, you're saying that not all bodies are the same? Not all bodies are the same.

So we shouldn't be training the same? No, I'm saying that everybody, if there's a way that people should move with certain things, like when people run, when people squat, I'm not saying it can look different, but the broad strokes have to be the same. Like the knees need to be in a certain direction. The body needs to be in a certain, the tempo needs to be the same. The knees need to be in a certain direction. The body needs to be in a certain, the tempo needs to be the same. So I'm not saying that there can't be differences. I'm saying that when I go into a room, I don't look at the record board, right? I look at, are people fluent in movement? Okay. And how does that translate to a process for a high-profile? Because I know that whoever's coaching them has a process. Because you can't get this group of 90 kids from all different backgrounds, with all different experiences up to that point, to now move the way that you want them them to move there's a process behind that

and an ability to communicate that process so let's play this out i know you don't spend time in big business you know like in the corporate worlds or not so much no but let's play this out just real time uh you can walk into a gym and be like oh i I smell it and I see it and I feel it. And I can see that there's a fluidity in the way 90 humans are moving. And it's an indication that there's a high performance process from the strength coach or whoever is kind of guiding that. If you crosswalk that into business, how would you walk into a bit what would you be looking for listening to in a business so i've done this for leadership stuff i listen to the conversations so i'll sit in a room just sit and i listen how do people talk to each other how do the managers talk to the employees how the bosses

talk to the managers you know in the meetings when the decision makers are together so what's being said how is it being said what's the you know what's the body language of the people listening you know right arms closed hands in their sorry hands in their, you know, right? Arms closed. Arms closed, hands in their pockets, you know, these indicators. Like in that world, it's not a physical world. It's a communication world. And so communication becomes the movement. And that's what I look for.

I just look for how people are talking to each other and the type of conversations they're having that's a really cool idea communication as the as the movement it's the analog right in that world it's just i mean relationships run this whole thing sure both in both worlds and so communication is the tool for verbal, nonverbal, for the relationship, for the connection. Yeah. Cool. I love that. And we can enhance communication by having a clear set of values and virtues that we're working towards and the mental skills that sit underneath to make sure that those values and virtues are honestly trying to give ourselves a chance to live with those great words on the walls.

What I've found, and I'd love your take on this, is that we can do the fancy words on walls, like excellence or kindness or whatever it is. And then as soon as there's real stress in the system, the manager's stressed out or the director's stressed out about whatever, we tighten up. You and I both know what happens as soon as we tighten up. Usually, usually we fall to the level of our training. We don't usually rise to the occasion. We fall to our level of training. If we haven't trained our mind, the brain wins, the body wins, which is tight and agitated. I don't know many things that are beautiful from a tight, agitated state. You know, one of the things that my players hear from me almost daily

is how you do anything is how you do everything. Hey, where'd you get that from? That's good. I didn't make it up, that's for sure. No, but I used to say a bunch, and I know it's been conscripted, is the way you do small things is the way you do all things. Yeah. Yeah.

Same thing. So you pay attention to the small habits. Yeah, because there is no thing as a small habit that exists in a vacuum. If you're late to my class, where else are you showing up late? How you do anything is how you do everything. And so talking about rising to the level of your training, especially with my weightlifters, because the practice is the competition, right? We do the same exact things in practice

that we're asked our athletes to do in competition. It's not like team sports. My expectation is perfection in all movements, in training. So that surprises me. And actually- Because I wasn't like that. Yeah. It surprises me that the standard is perfection, which is unattainable.

And just to be clear, before we move on to that, I just want to, that way you do anything, the way you do everything, the way you do small things, all things, often attributed to Zen Buddhism. And the origin of that insight is not clear of where it comes from, but it's such a powerful idea to look at the small things to have a projection of the way that most things are happening. So I just wanted to nod to the, I don't know, the beautiful Zen traditions that they still show up in lots of different ways for us. Absolutely. And if you think about how do you extrapolate that to the things that we do, what are the small things? What's the analog to the small things with what I do?

For me, it's the lower intensities, right? So it's the 60%, it's the lower intensities right so it's the 60 it's the 70 it's the things that aren't necessarily hard so and in the work world that what is that is that the emails that are like what would you say it's not really hard you know it the, what are the things that the daily tasks, right? The emails, the conversations, the lists, the, you know, the things that have to get done on a daily basis that aren't on fire, right? They're not problems. You know, we're not solving problems. The lower intensity stuff aren't the problems. It's the base, right?

It's the stuff that makes up the most of your day. In life, it's brushing your teeth. It's making your bed. It's these little things that don't require a lot of thought or energy. How you do anything is how you do everything. I remember I was 24, 23 years old, maybe. Yeah, right in that range. And I was waking up in the morning, kind of one of the first things I do,

even before I eat, is I brush my teeth. Yeah. And I remember, like, why are my hands shaking? Having that question, looking in the mirror. Why am I shaking? I was riddled with anxiety, but I didn't even know what it was. I didn't have know what it was. I didn't have the language for it. So all of these small little ways I was thinking about things were stacking up. And

so it's not just the way you do the observable things, but the way you do the small little things, which is the way that, I don't know, I'm engaging in this conversation with you. I can have thoughts like, am I doing it right? Am I doing good enough? Am I missing a mark? Or I can be like, oh, this is really fun to explore. I don't know where this is going to go. So the small little framing, this slippery little self-narrative that is oftentimes, if you don't invest in it, nearly undetectable. But once you invest in becoming aware of your inner dialogue, like it becomes pretty clear. So how do you coach becoming aware of the inner dialogue? How do you coach the small things? You know, first it starts with a conversation, right?

So you have to set expectations and just tell the story of of here's here's what i and i don't tell people what they should do right because it's not my it's not my place it's a dirty little word yeah so like here's what i recommend right here's what's here's and why i talk about the benefit and it doesn't take right away all the time and you have to have some patience to allow them to explore i mean it feels like patience is an uphill a virtue that is being you know it's so heavy to push uphill right now it's's hard, right? Because our concept of time has changed, right? It's constricted. You know, we're not,

it's why we don't have a lot of masters in things. And it's just because it takes time. And it's, we don't, the way we look at things now, it's gotta be now. Many things will fall through the cracks and we won't really perform at a high level if now is the goal i'm struck by that idea that we don't have many masters right now because patience is

one of the culprits yeah because you can't one of the thieves can't be a master without patience how do you how do you help or how how do you help others be more patient or how do you exercise patience yourself now i wasn't it's funny because when we were in grad school together i did not have patience you didn't have any any kind of patience you know that shit now and you you had a lot of anxiety around like the outcome it was so it, it was, I look back on that. I don't know how I survived. And I took that same attitude into business. You know, it's only been over the last five or six years

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Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, so I was reading your book. I had no idea you could write. You're a good storyteller, which you haven't told one story yet, which I'm surprised by. You know, you've got a way to get right to the point and be really direct, probably offensive to 50% of the people listening, but you, but you, and you haven't gone there yet, which I'm surprised by. I'm calling you out a little bit.

That's okay. I'll get there. Yeah. Just warming up. All right. How did you, so one, well done on writing. Two, you wanted to talk about suffering. Yeah. So why suffering? Wait, what just happened in the pause? It's such an important part of my life, both positively and negatively.

Being able to really think deeply about it over the last six or seven years and defining it and dissecting it into something that, and understanding it more, how it can destroy people. The experience of suffering. The experience of suffering, pain, disease, self-inflicted, negative. It's like Hans Selye talks about eustress and distress, right? The good stressors and the bad stressors. Suffering is the same.

There's good suffering and there's bad suffering. We tend to experience bad suffering we tend to experience bad suffering it really defines us and especially i you know it's you talk about every generation is well the it's it's worse now than it was before right but i it's just different it's the the types of suffering that we can expose ourselves to now. There seems to be a tremendous amount of negative influence in how we suffer now. What is suffering? Suffering is something you either pay attention to or you don't pay attention to.

The suffering that we don't pay attention to are this slow, just decline of bad decisions daily. It's not touching the stove. It's not suffering by burning your finger on the stove. It's suffering by getting three hours of sleep. It's bad relationships with people, with things. It's- With yourself. With yourself. relationships with people with things it's with yourself with yourself it's being unhappy in the things that you do it's being in a in a hole not being able to get out of it

that's the worst suffering because you don't know it's there until you look back and you're like, what the fuck just happened over these last 20 years? What was the moment, if you could bring us into why you wanted to examine your suffering? Because I was suffering. Well, it's funny. I was suffering because I wasn't suffering. So I was suffering because, for me suffering so i was suffering because for me because i'm a physical being a bit of physical being my whole life and my physical suffering has always been training for sport you know it's it's training has been and we suffered in training especially

through weightlifting weightlifting is just a different thing as far as suffering goes. It is a gauntlet of just pain. And I love- To create the adaptation that you're looking for, you've got to get right to that physical and oftentimes emotional, mental edges where the repair process is really agitating. If anyone's had, I call it toilet bowl syndrome, TBS,

that you lift, maybe somebody's deconditioned and they go to the gym and they go, ah, let me get after it. And two days later, it DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness. But they can't sit on the toilet. Right. It's so like, yeah, yeah, yeah. TBS, right?

Like, oh my God, like it just hardens it down. That was 10 years of my life yeah tbs every day every day doms every day every day yeah it's just it's just brutal and this was something happened that you could no longer have that type of suffering yeah and then you were no and this was an extended period of time yeah where you said you said what to like tell me about the awakening moment. So I retired in 2001. I had an injury that I just couldn't compete anymore. So I went headfirst into opening a business

and just spent all that energy into developing this business. And I suffered in a sense. I was homeless when I first started. I was working 16, 20 hours a day. We were all worried about you. i mean it's what you were hot committed yeah you were sleeping on your couch yeah you were managing trying to do a dollar a day in food ten dollars thirty six dollars a week thirty six dollars a week that's thirty six dollars a week in food building a website and i couldn't i mean if anybody knows me i couldn couldn't, I mean, when I turned my,

I used my first computer in grad school, I couldn't even turn it on. I didn't know how to turn it on. So I'm building a website. I'm doing all these things. I'm just, I'm committed to making this thing work. We're all like, he's going to figure it out. Oh my God.

If I can live, I'll figure it out. Where does that come from? Our community knows that about you. Where does that come from we our community knows that about you where does that come from that if i got a shot i'm gonna keep going and figuring it out what else is there oh there's lots of things not for me i know but where does that come from there's there's victimhood you know it's fine okay rarely does anyone say i'm a victim i'll tell you this i'll tell you because you you're the one that introduced to me this concept. Well, there we go.

Finally. Okay. You talked to me about the difference between running away from failure and running towards success. Most of my weightlifting career, I ran away from failure. And you're looking over your shoulder all the time and you just can't see the wall. And then you just fucking run into that wall you still have emotion when you're talking about it yeah because i don't have i don't trust anybody that says they don't have any regrets but i didn't hear you early enough and when i did hear you at the last, actually, when I came back, so I didn't make the trials in 2000.

I came back after a break in 2001, and I got it. And I was like, oh, and that's what Mike was talking about, running towards success. Yeah. Can you open up that moment? Was it a distinct moment or was it like a process? It was, you know what it was? It's like, you should talk to me about the flow, like being, you know, the flow moment, the white moment.

I don't remember how exactly you- This was like in 1995 or in 96. Yeah. We're talking about this a bunch. And I never understood it because it, because competition to me felt like war. Yeah, right. And then it didn't.

And then it felt like I was in control. Like, you know, I saw the matrix, right? When, you know, when, when Neo, when they put the whatever in his head, he said, oh man, I know Kung Fu. Right. All of a sudden he knew Kung Fu. Yeah.

And all of a sudden I knew how to lift. I knew how to compete. Not to lift. I knew how to lift. I knew how to compete. Yeah. Right. And I was like, holy shit, this is great.

Yep. And then it ended. Yeah. Because of an injury. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what were you running away from and what do you want to run toward?

It's a multitude of emotions, like embarrassment. You're running away from it. Running away from embarrassment. Yeah, I put everything into this. Your entire identity. Everything was this. And I didn't want to disappoint people that were really supporting me. And I didn't want to disappoint people that were really supporting me. And I didn't want to disappoint.

So disappointment. Fear. Everything, I look back on my life growing up and how I competed. Fear was a big part of that. Fear of letting people down. Just fear of a situation like this. I still have it like when i sit in a go to a restaurant i gotta be you know i gotta know where everything all the doors are like i have this

vigilance that i can't turn off from from how i grew up usually born out of trauma yeah a lot of trauma. I mean, as a young man, young boy, with my real mom and her boyfriend, you know, getting the shit kicked out of me all the time. And they got off on the fear that it caused me. You know, they would beat the piss out of me. And then, you know, at an early age, age one day i'll never forget this man uh it came home and you know they would draw a drink i could smell the booze and i'm like okay here it comes and i said and this i gotta be eight nine if that and i just said, you know, fuck them. I knew it was coming.

I stood there and I stared at them and my mom right in the eye. And like they would hit me harder and harder. And I see them get like frustrated. And then they stopped and never hit me again. So I wasn't scared anymore. So I had a weird relationship with fear. How, man, knowing the way I know you and the way I care about you, thinking about you as an eight-year-old,

what's happening in your body as you're telling the story my head gets tight that's the physical part of it right like i just it's you know my mom just died my real mom just died uh like two months ago yeah i hadn't talked to her in i don't know 20 years 25 years whatever it was wait hold on before you go there why you choose six, four minutes ago to tell that story? I never told that to anybody. Yeah. Because I think it's, I'm not alone. I think people have these, people have triggers from when they're young,

like just experiences in that age, whatever, abuse or whatever. And it's not an albatross, right? It's not an anchor. How we use that experience, it's like anything else. How do you use the experience? How do you use failure? How do you use trauma? I got friends, you got friends in the special operations world.

Those guys just, I mean, they're killing themselves left and right because of trauma. I'm not comparing my experience with their experience, but I'm saying trauma is trauma. Trauma is trauma. Yeah, so, but why, okay. I'm watching you work with some of the most intense emotions a human can work with,

which is revisiting the scariest parts of one's life. And you're not overrun with the emotion, but you're with it. And to me, I think there's two parts of this. One, I hope that everyone I know will do the inner work so that they can be with their emotions and not run over. But early on, it feels like you get hit by a truck. I'm going to go back to the question.

Why did you choose to go there? And I think I know the answer, but I'd love to hear it in your voice. I don't know if it's the answer you're looking for, but. No, no, wait, wait. Let me say it again. I'm not looking for anything. I really am curious. Yeah, I think that. So how I use that? No, why did you choose to bring that forward

in this conversation? I think... Talked about before, I think it was off air. This was one of the hardest things I had to do, this book because i i i'm a private guy like you know i'm on the internet and you're on the internet but you know there's i'm guarded some of the things i talk about in the book i mean i haven't talked about with anybody right talk about it now because i think part of it's cathartic because i have a little bit of a different relationship with it and one of the things is, you know, everybody's got their own shit that they've been through. I'm not saying mine's worse or yours.

I'm not saying it, but that's among the worst thing that's happened to me. And experiencing it and talking about it helps me align where I've been, what I've been through, the lessons learned from that, and the ability to survive and thrive. And I'm not going to experience anything in my life right now. I don't have a kid that something terrible can happen to. But I'm not going to experience anything in my life worse than that. I'm just not.

So when I do experience something terrible, it's not going to be that terrible. And it gives me confidence to say, okay, I got this thing in front of me, this problem. This thing is on fire. Instead of being a bitch about it, be a fireman. So I've already been a fireman. I put out this fire in my life. I'm not saying it didn't screw me up in some ways. I'm sure it did. But I'm okay. I'm fine. I got some bumps and bruises on the way, but I'm fine.

So I'm going to continue to be fine. I'm going to look at that problem. I'm going to put it out. And I'm going to move on to the next problem. Because I know I can do it. That's rad. If you had trauma in your life and you're still here, you could survive it. You're not dead.

You might be a little fucked up, but that's okay. We're all a little fucked up. But what are the lessons? There's always lessons. How do you use them? And how do you think of yourself are you a victim i'm not a victim i was fucking eight years old you know i don't know what it like with women and and and sexual rape like i don't i can't even imagine you know what that's like and and how to deal with that and and i don't pretend to, so on people that I'm not,

I'm not pretending that, you know, you should be so cavalier about, you know, there's some, there's some trauma that trumps all the trauma. And I think when you get that kind of violation is just a different thing. And I don't know the answers to that.

And I'm not, and I'm not pretending that I do. I don't want to, but for all I could talk about is what I went through and my process for using it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products

that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20 off your first order that's caldera lab c-a-l-d-e-r-l-a-b.com slash finding mastery can we open up one i didn't really glad i opened ended that question because that was really eloquent, the way you explained how you're using it. What was your process? Because to not, what was your process to go examine this fire? As a kid or now? As an adult, because let's say that you created a response. So you had an adaptation to the trauma.

Yeah. A survival adaptation. By the way, trauma is post-traumatic stress disorder is really mislabeled. If I could relabel it, it would be an avoidance of re-traumatization. Not reliving it? Yeah. So I do all of these things, most indetectable sometimes observable to not be traumatized again so that that is really the the real trauma if you will is the fundamental

orientation to shape your thought patterns and your choices and your actions to avoid trauma as opposed to to shape your thoughts and actions towards joy and happiness. Oh, that's the going away, going towards. Going towards, yeah. So what did you do? Was there a moment when you're like, I want to go back to the moment when you're like, I'm not going to do it this way anymore. And I'm going to go, I'm going to keep looking inward. I mean, was it psychotherapy? Was it writing? Was it conversations with loved ones, with people of wisdom? Like what was the process for you? Yeah. So, you're in the moment of suffering and and

and I don't mean like I was as a weightlifter although that was great too because that really allowed I mean it does the same thing it it gives you the opportunity to take a break what from what from the all the other shit that's going on yeah i think that when you're physically suffering it's a proxy though for attending to the emotional suffering but here's what it does it allows i always it gives you a space just like even if it's a few if it's a beat to to read to direct your focus on something else the physical training because you have to focus on this thing or else it's gonna you know it's gonna hurt you that's right if you're focusing on that you're not focusing on the shit that's right and i think that and i don't know the science behind this you i'm sure you do

but if you can give yourself a break it does some kind of reset oh it's amazing so yeah we could let's not get into the into the process of it but we're talking about a couple things one is turning off your default mode network and the default mode network is this system that's chronically running and the system is basically a self-referencing system am i okay that's what the default mechanism in our brain is am i okay does he think i'm okay does she think i'm okay okay? Is it okay? So it's a self-referencing for survival. And when you have a deep, narrow focus, such as lifting 600 pounds on your back or catching a football at full speed or whatever,

trying to figure out the next note to crack on a song that you're writing, that deep type of focus turns off the default mode network. So you're no longer checking in to see if I'm okay. You're focusing on something that you, so there's, there's the break of the relief valve that you're talking about. The other thing that takes place is often miss, and I want to get your take on it, but not yet. Okay. But I just want to put a placeholder is that you've got an emotionally charged anxiety based system. Okay. So your system is anxiously based to avoid another trauma. Okay. That's why you're,

that's one of the reasons you're so good at getting good is because you're anxious about it not working out. So you would go to the gym longer and harder than anyone else, but there's a diminishing return in that approach as we mentioned earlier. So then, so you've got this emotionally charged internal ecosystem, and then you do a ton of physical training. It's stress on stress. So without the requisite recovery, we're now burning the candle at both ends from an energy standpoint. So I want to get to that later, okay, about how to find that right balance between the attention, the gift of attention that comes with the cost of high physical training, what the counter-rotation is. All right, so let's go back to your insight

about when I'm physically suffering suffering i got a relief from lifting heavy weights and then i had physical suffering okay walk through the way that you would hope people can suffer smarter the title of your book it's not what you think i wrote this because it's my hero's journey it's not i i've been through this. So there are times when in my life I struggle to feel good, not just physically but psychologically. I would wake up in the morning and my brain would instantly go on to all the shit that I have to deal with. I get up out of bed. It's almost unconscious. And I go directly

to start problem solving. I don't make my bed. I don't brush my teeth. And then when I think, then it comes to me. And the thought of brushing my teeth is too much or making my bed. I don't have time for that. I just, I don't want to do it and it's hard to describe how often is this thankfully not very often anymore at one time it was yeah yeah okay so we're we're not talking about current time we're talking about well um we're talking about 2002 well no it's it's happened you know it's happened within the last few years. Every once in a while it pops up. Yeah. How do you dig yourself out or how do you? I tell myself, okay, look, what are we doing here?

I tell myself, treat yourself better. Take this, if this is the only, if this is the five minutes in this day that you have to spend on yourself, then you be all in on those five minutes and you spend that time on yourself and you know what that shit's still gonna be there and now it's not suffering for me to do these little little things now that does thankfully that doesn't happen very often yeah right and you know it's so eloquent though to hear you talk about self-compassion that. I never had it.

I know. Like, it's so wonderful. Like I'm listening to the evidence of 20 years of deep work. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Your head hit the concrete and then you did the deep work. You were always interested in the deep work.

Yeah. You know, like you were always into the internal work but then you did the deep work yeah it's rad to hear and then to get to this kind of little bow which is like i have a conversation with myself like hey take care of myself self-compassion you got to be kind to yourself you know you have to you have to spend you have to be able to have times during the day when you're focused on something else other than your grand goals. And for me, I like to fill that time with physical suffering. But you can't do it anymore? I do do it.

You do it. So are you lifting? I am training hard. For years, you know, after I retired, I was training, kind of. But I can put 500 or 600 pounds on my back and do this thing. And I did it i mean i've probably squatted 500 pounds every year of my life since i'm 16 other than a couple of years so but that's not suffering it's easy jesus it's something that doesn't require like i don't look at that and get my heart doesn't race.

It doesn't look like, man, I don't know if, I mean, this is going to be something. I don't get that with that. But that's all I did. That's all I knew. And I remember just to break in this, like, I remember once you were teaching me overhead. I think it was a snatch. And we're just starting with overhead squatting. Yeah.

I don't know if you remember this. And you're like, no, no, no. It's like this. Put your body in this shape. I was like, I'm trying, Sean. It was like with overhead squatting. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this. And I was, and you're like, no, no, no. It's like this, put your body in this shape. I was like, I'm trying, Sean. It was like with a broomstick. And then you looked at my, you look at my body. You're like, hmm. Yeah.

And so you kind of just grinned and you said, yeah, we got some work to do. You know, so I mean, I was, I was working on a broomstick and what can you put over your head and squat? Well, I mean, I was working on a broomstick. And what can you put over your head and squat? Well, I mean, I snatched 365. So it's a barbell with 365 pounds resting on the ground. You lean over that thing, put your two hands on it, kind of get to a squat underneath of it.

And one explosive movement, that 365, is as you're standing up over your head. Yes. And you have to be fast and powerful to be able to do it. Lots of time under tension. And I want to shift the mindsets because there's a mindset involved in everything that you're talking about. And I want to think about what it takes in the modern world based on all of your wisdom,

all of your deep work, your understanding of how to coach people to become their very best. of your deep work, your understanding of how to coach people to become their very best, when you think of the necessary mindsets to live in our modern world, what words? So mindset is the way that you interpret or respond to the world around you, but it needs an adjective before it. So what is the adjective of the mindset that you think is required for people to live a great life? Purpose. I think purpose is important. Keep going.

What does that mean? It means something's gotta be important to you. For the record, you and I have not calibrated on this, and I think purpose mindset is the kingpin of all mindsets. Oh, wow. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I mean, because I think it makes everything else easy, even if it's not.

Right? Your willingness to endure goes way up if there's a purpose behind what you do. The greatest blessing is finding something that sparks this. Curiosity is another one. I think it's the- Purpose and curiosity. Okay. It starts with curiosity.

Do you have a third one just that comes up? Stubbornness is probably my third one. I would never have gotten that one. That's great. Okay. So on purpose, do you know your purpose? Is it clear for you? Yeah.

And could you articulate it in a sentence or two? Yeah, I can. Can you bring that forward? I'm a helper. I like to help people. That's it. I mean, I just, in the beginning of my book, I just, I watched my parents help people and I try to, I want to help people every day.

And so how did you commit to that clarifying notion that my purpose is to help people every day? How did you get, is there a process that sits underneath of that informally or formally? You know, there's a selfish component to it. I like the way it makes me feel. I mean, it's more than that. But from a selfish perspective, I like the way it makes me feel.

On a altruistic purpose, I think our physical being really is the hub. The quality of our physical being is really the hub for, it's a lofty grand thing, but I think that physically healthy people are happier people. Happier people make better decisions. Happier people have better conversations. Happier people are interested in different things. And I think it stems from our physical being. And it's how I see the world.

I look at people who are not physical beings, who are not, who are suffering in the wrong way. You look at their decision-making and it just doesn't align with somebody who's happy in their own body. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset.

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use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. It's cool because I want to tie a couple of things together is one, uh, the last couple of days I've had probably, you know, a little bit of a agitation in C5, 6. I know you've been suffering with back stuff for as long as I know you. Yeah. So I had a little bit of flare up and like hard to sit, hard to kind of like,

okay. My purpose is so clear though to me. So when my purpose is big, I can deal with lots of different types of pains so when when pain is big and purpose is small that is a experience of suffering when purpose is big the you deal with the pains and so right even right now like it's hard for me to sit in in the chair and it's not overwhelming i know how to manage it. It's just a fine, I can adjust and dah, dah, dah. So, but my purpose is so clear

and the purpose of this conversation is to really celebrate your path, your pain, your suffering, and the non-magical set of commitments that you've made to go inward, to do the work, to write. So first and foremost, your honesty is what led you to embrace your suffering, to face that fire, to go inward, to talk it out with people, to write it out on your own, to make sense of it, and then to bring it forward, both in book form and in this conversation. Sean, I'm in awe, dude.

This is rad. To see the arc, to know that you were practically homeless and I don't know, when was it? When were you practically homeless? Well, I mean, it happened a couple of times, but I came out here, when I arrived in Los Angeles, I was homeless. Yeah.

So I was living in my car. Did you leave your money in Arizona? Yeah, I left my fanny pack in Arizona. Yeah, sounds good. First of all, we should talk about fanny packs, but we'll leave that. Yeah. And I just, you know, I was like, well, and so I slept in my car in a church parking lot and they feed me dinner and,

and I was going to school and training and I got a, I had so much fun. Like the, again, like the, our little unique rap, you know, Rico, Ken, you, me, I don't know who else comes to mind. Like I'm playing. Oh, you know, there was, there was just an odd set of, yeah, there was a crew at, at through raw, you know, the UFC training center or I'm sorry, it's not that it was an MMA training center. One of the first, as you mentioned earlier. Awesome, dude. Like I, I'm so stoked for what you've done in your life and how you're making a

difference with people. I feel it. I feel the depth. I feel the warmth, feel the care. I feel the,. I feel the care. I feel the deep insights that you're working from. I hope that the listener does the internal work. You can only do so much, right? You have to have a willingness. If there was one thing to start with today and they have the willingness and they say, I don't know where to start, what would you point them to? Put on your shoes. They keep going. Tell me more.

This is... If you're not feeling well, you're not moving. Got it. Like people don't know where to enter into this. It's an overwhelming thing. I put weight on my, I got to do all that. I got to go to the gym. I got to do this.

I got to, you don't have to do any of it. You got to put on your shoes. And then I would add, and you would probably nod your head. And when you're putting on your shoes, be with putting on your shoes. Yeah. Just be there. Be there. And when you're putting on your shoes, be with putting on your shoes. Yeah. Just be there. Be there. And then what are you going to do next?

Are you going to sit in your hall like a jerk-off? No, you're going to go outside. Right? So go outside. And then walk down your stairs and come back in. Take your shoes off. Do it again tomorrow. Maybe walk down the block.

Do that for 60 days. And when you're walking, what do you do? So what I would do is focus on breathing. In what way? I like to focus on stomach breaths and breathing through your nose. It's something that – focus on something like that. When I walk in the mornings, I just – I think about what I'm going to write. So I don't always have a plan.

I just – I try to develop the muscle of writing. And sometimes I – the night before in the shower, I'll come up with something I want to write about. Or I have these other projects that I'm doing, and I'll write about that. But sometimes I just don't have a plan, and I walk, and something comes to me. So I focus on those things. But if you're just starting, focus on your breath. Yeah, and so a cadence could be four seconds in, eight seconds out. Four seconds in, four second pause, four second out.

Just all of it. Do the same thing. Just have a process. Yeah. I would say experiment. Yes. Could be five seconds, could be six seconds. Don't be haphazard.

Pick something. Yeah. And work a process. And work the process. Four seconds in, eight seconds out, two second pause, whatever it is. How's that work? Right. Like, how does that work for me?

Or maybe it's like, whoa, that's too much in my head. I'm counting too much. I'm not seeing the colors. So maybe just allow my brain to be natural and be in awe of colors. Like run a process. Yes. Because if you don't run a process here, your mind will go to where it feels comfortable. And oftentimes where it feels comfortable is with sorting out the problems, which is fine.

If that's what you want your walk to be is about sorting out problems, just know that it's bucketed then. And then you're not doing that also when you're brushing your teeth and eating your breakfast and driving to the... So it's like, have a process and a little bit of a plan. I think you and I would both say,

yeah, rigidity is having this morning mindset routine, which I have one that I, anyone wants access to my morning mindset routine, they can go to our website, findingmastery.com forward slash morning mindset. And like it's there, but it's not about being rigid with anything. It's about having a plan or a process to explore,

to settle in, to get some direction and to be more a little bit more present well it's funny you mentioned that because you asked me about training right what am i doing now i've gotten rid of the rigidity because i've always disappointed myself with rigidity outside of being an athlete right i'm planned okay i could i plan i could plan everything right so i plan today's supposed to be this, this, and this. Well, I don't feel like doing that, right? So I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do anything.

So getting rid of rigidity in how we approach these things and being kind to yourself as far as giving yourself some slack has really been one of the keys to maintaining physical discomfort, suffering in my life because I can choose whatever I want to do. I'm not bound to one way, right? I can push a sled until I can't breathe. That's suffering, right? I can walk and lunge the whole until my legs are burning. That's suffering.

I can hike up a mountain as fast as I can. It doesn't matter. There's no rigidity there. It's the feeling of this is hard and it makes me uncomfortable. And I think you're adding a dimension, which is while you're doing it, you're backing yourself. You're being kind to yourself. You're being a great coach to yourself. So you don't have that other narrative. If I don't do this, I'm a loser. And while I'm doing it, like like what's wrong with me you should be able to go 10 more steps you loser you know like this you've got an integrated approach where your mind and body are working together towards your purpose not just

coaching yourself um at the cost of physical no and i lived my life previously in these 12-week periods, right? These 12-week cycles with an end. I'm in a 50-year cycle now. That's cool. My end is whenever I die. That's cool. And hopefully it's not for a while. So if you look at it that way,

then anything I do on any given day, the specifics of it, it doesn't matter. No form to break form. It's a deep kind of martial art idea. No form to break form. No structure to break structure. Slight little shift here. What is your take on mastery?

What is your working definition or your understanding of mastery? Mastery is what exists in between the spaces. I'll tell you a story. Sunday, one of my good best friends, Adam Lang, world-class chef, restaurateur. We were training partners. He's now a pit master. He had a restaurant in Hollywood and Vine. COVID killed it.

Now he does pop-ups. So he does all around L.A. So I have all his recipes. So brisket, ribs. I love beef ribs. I love brisket. So I all those recipes. So brisket, ribs. I love beef ribs. I love brisket. So I have those recipes step by step. And I've cooked those things dozens of times.

And I can tell you right now, my ribs don't taste anything like his. So Sunday, I went to his pop-up, a place called Gin Rummy in Venice. I went like three and a half, four hours before because I love to see what he does. So I'm watching all the preparation and all this, and then he gets cooking, and I recognize the steps on the recipe. Okay, I did that. I did that. Second one, third, I did that. I did that. Second one, third one, did that.

And I'm watching the whole thing. It's like watching art for me. I love to cook. Cooking is a big part of my life. It presents me with the food and I eat the food. And it's a spiritual experience. It really is. It's just, and then I get mad because I'm like, well, what the fuck's wrong with me?

You know, I look at not step one, step two, but the hundreds of things and decisions that go on in between that first and second step. Born through experience and curiosity. That's mastery. It's the stuff in between. The deeper you get into those questions, why, how, you know, you start to answer those questions and you have time, right? Time. We talked about time before.

You have the time to sit with those questions and those answers. And then you think that you're there, but really mastery is not a destination. It's this journey. So you get all these answers, but you have more questions, so now you're back at the beginning. So watching somebody like cooking is an interesting thing for me because it happens in a very finite amount of time. You start, you finish, same time, same day. And it's an incredible representation of mastery because you can see it all unfold in front of you.

What we do, I'm not saying I'm a master, but I'm saying I'm on that path. It just takes so long. Yeah, it does. You don't get the meal sometimes. Yeah, yeah. But cooking is just, that's why I love it. And that's why I love watching somebody like that, a master, because it's such a great representation of it.

You know, the spaces in between. I love that. If someone's in LA, what's the name of his pop- know, the spaces in between. I love that. If someone's in LA, what's the name of his pop-ups? APL Barbecue. Where do I find it? He's on Instagram. APL Barbecue.

APL Barbecue. Yeah, okay. Right now he's at, on Sundays, I know for sure Sundays, a Gin Rummy is a bar in Venice. Okay. And he does this whole pop up it's so we go and we say I know Sean Waxman yeah yeah maybe give me give me an extra something well maybe you but it's uh and the line is crazy like they they line up I was there three or so hours before it was already a. Really? I got to go check it.

It's the best. But hold on. I'm not eating animals that I would like to pet. Oh, well, too bad for you. So I miss out on this, huh? You're shit out of luck. Oh, good. Yeah, it's.

We should get Adam on. Yeah, he'd be. You know, it's funny. We trained together a lot during the pandemic, during COVID. Out here or in Utah? Here. Oh. Yeah, he'd be. You know, it's funny. We trained together a lot during the pandemic, during COVID. Out here or in Utah? Here. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, you were here. So his barbecue studio was right next to my gym. Cool. That's how that happened. That's convenient. But we would have these incredible conversations about process. I'm looking at a screen right here with uh with him you can't see the screen right but okay yeah jesus his instagram handle is adam perry lang yeah okay

harry lang yeah at a perry lang we have these incredible conversations about process we approach We approach our trade the same. And we would have these in-depth conversations because we approach things the same way. So I think that was the main reason why we hit it off so well. Yeah, that's cool. So he would have me talk with his staff all the time about process and leadership and things like that. So it was cool, man. But, yeah, you guys, if you want to go, let me know.

I'll let him know that you want to go. And, bro, I'm telling you. Oh, good. I came early to L.A. Because, I mean, it's just Wednesday. Yeah. I came on Saturday night so I can go to that on Sunday. All right, you got my mouth watering. Oh, yeah.

I'm definitely checking it out. Listen, Suffer Smarter is awesome. Well-written. I hope that people can be inspired to go within, to embrace their suffering, and be a better partner to themselves so they can be a better partner to others. Appreciate you, Sean. Thank you so much. All right.

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