Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Surround Yourself with the Right People | SoulCycle Co-Founder, Julie Rice

Episode Date: July 22, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Julie Rice, an entrepreneur best known for co-founding the fitness phenomenon, SoulCycle.She served as Co-CEO at SoulCycle from 2006 to 2015 before serving as a Partner at WeWork from 2017 to 2019.Julie is currently the Co-Founder of LifeShop, a company developing original concepts in the health and happiness space.In this conversation, we discuss what inspired Julie to create SoulCyle.We touch on the key to being a great leader and the right questions to ask if you want to be successful in business.For Julie, building community is the center of everything she does.Her thoughts, words, and actions are all focused on helping people creating meaningful relationships… because ultimately we’re all a product of the people that we surround ourselves with.Julie shares how her approach to creating meaningful relationships has evolved and how you can apply those same lessons to your own life.We also discuss what the next two to three years will look like for physical, brick and mortar experiences vs. digital and how Julie is adjusting to the pandemic._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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When you close your eyes and picture the end of your life, who is it that you wanted to be? Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and trading, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery. And we want to better understand what are they searching for? How do they organize

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Now, this week's conversation is with Julie Rice, an entrepreneur best known for co-founding the fitness phenom SoulCycle. And she served as the co-CEO at SoulCycle from 2006 to 2015 before serving as a partner at WeWork from 2017 to 2019. Julie is currently the co-founder of LifeShop, and that's a company developing original concepts in the health and happiness space. So in this conversation, we discuss what inspired Julie to create SoulCycle. And we touch on the keys to being a great leader and the right questions to ask if you want to be successful in business.

And for Julie, building community is at the center of everything that she does. Her thoughts, her words, and her actions are in alignment, and they're focused on helping people creating meaningful relationships. And you've heard me say this a lot, through relationships we become. And this is at the center of her approach to building business and building relationships. Julie also shares how her approach to creating meaningful relationships has evolved, how it's changed, and how you can apply some of her lessons in your own life. And we also talk about what the next two or three years will look like for physical brick and mortar experiences versus the digital type

training that we're seeing now and how she's adjusting to the current pandemic. And on that note, a quick little note here, if you haven't had the chance yet, I'd be honored if you'd pick up a copy of my new Audible original, Compete to Create. It's co-authored with Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll. It's about six hours of original content, audio form, and couldn't be more excited to share it with you. It's, you know, in this modern world right now that we're in, we are bombarded with messages that we are not enough, that we need something outside of ourselves to be fulfilled. And the truth is, everything we need is already inside us. We just need to uncover it. And that's really what this Audible Original is about.

The process of self-discovery, the process of building the mental skills to allow you to do just that. And it's this beautiful companion to our eight-week online course. And as a Finding Mastery community member, there's some discounts here that we've got for you. So both for the Audible original and our full-length Compete to Create online mindset training course, all of that info can be found on our website, and that is findingmastery.net forward slash partners. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Julie Rice. Julie, how are you? I'm okay. How are you doing?

That's a nice way to say, you know, to respond to it. I felt like that was warm and honest. It was sometimes it's such a pleasantry, like, yeah, I'm doing good, but it felt like you're doing okay. Yeah. It's a wild world right now. Yeah, it really is. Between, you know, the tension that we have in our world between our health and injustice is fascinating. It's important. It's necessary. And there's a lot of confusion about what the next natural steps are. And so do you have any initial kind of thoughts about, I don't know, the current state of life right now for you? So it's interesting. I think that when quarantine first started, my knee-jerk reaction as a doer and an entrepreneur was, what can I make out of this? How can I better myself? What can I learn during this period?

And I think that what we've seen over the last three and a half months is as much as we thought things were different and changing on day 15 of this quarantine, it was nothing compared to what the world looks like now. And, you know, one of the really great lessons that I have spent a lot of time learning and working on is really trying to figure out how to listen. And I think right now it's a really interesting time in the world for us to take a pause and really kind of listen. I'm really a people person, and I find that most of my life and my work has centered around being able to read people, understand what people want, figure out how to bring people together to draw those things out of them. But I have to say, this is a real moment where I think just taking a beat to kind of understand where the world is at, because I think people don't know yet.

I think there's been so much change. It's such a traumatic, big time in terms of both the pandemic and all the racial injustice that I think that people really need a minute to figure out where they are. I think that that figuring out is a big part of becoming, right? And if we don't know who we are and the principles that are designed

or that we snap into or snap onto, the core principles that guide our thoughts, our words, and our actions, then we get whipped around by the rhythm of the world as opposed to, or I should say more of the chaos of the world. And as opposed to like, okay, here is how I want to live my life independent of the external conditions. And can I be in harmony with the conditions that are difficult? And so if we stayed on that note for just a moment, do you have clarity of the principles that guide your thoughts, your words, and your actions?

I think that the principles that matter most to me are really around people and people's relationships with each other. I think that most of the decisions that I make in my life are guided by what is about making decisions for the greater good. You know, I genuinely believe that people really lift each other up, that we're all sort of a product of the people that surround us, that we spend our time with. I think that most people would agree that at the end of a life, the thing that you consider to be the most important is who you loved and who's loved you and who you've spent your time with. And if you really think about it that way, to me, most of the decisions that I make in my life

are guided by the relationships that I'm in. I love that. So you and I are going to snap into place really eloquently that I've got an axiom that I live by, which is that through relationships, we become. And it's through first our relationship with ourself, with others, and with Mother Nature. No particular order in the last two really, but the idea of like, we need to know what it's like to be in a relationship for us to fully become the person that we want to become. And it's, for me, relationships are hard and they're wonderful and they require difficult conversations. Now what's difficult about conversations is the emotions. It's not the

choosing of the words, it's the emotions that are snapped to it. And so how do you do difficult conversations? And before you dive right into the heart of that, can you just shape how many people at SoulCycle at one point you were leading and how many people at WeWork you were leading? When I left SoulCycle, we had a little over 2,000 employees, which is ironic and funny because Elizabeth and I started the business, and we were the only two employees that worked there. I absolutely never set out to be the CEO of a large company. I had an idea to create a product, which was something that I desperately needed. I had moved whole little world of people that I knew some of their

names. I didn't know some of their names, but I knew that at seven o'clock every single day, we were all going to be there rooting for each other. And that was a very big thing for me. And when I came back to New York, there was really nothing like that. There was big box gyms and there were, you know, ways to burn calories and boot camps and all sorts of things. But there was nothing like the, you know, there was nothing like the community or what I had experienced in Los Angeles. And so when I set out to create SoulCycle, I had just come from working in the entertainment business. And I have loved the theater since I've been a little kid. That has always sort of been my thing. I have always gravitated toward people

and characters and the nuance of emotions and how characters interact with each other, which ultimately led me to wanting to work in the entertainment business, which ultimately led me to Loving Artists, which ultimately led me to Los Angeles, where I worked with actors. And when I came back to New York and I couldn't kind of find this exercise tribe and I missed it so much, I started to have this idea that exercise didn't need to be something that you checked off on your to-do list. It didn't need to be a grind. It didn't need to be something that you dreaded doing. It could be something that you did with other people that you enjoyed. It could be social. It could be freeing. It can be a stress release. It could be really part of your identity. And I met a teacher at a gym where I was taking some spin classes and I started to describe this

to her. And she had said to me, you know, there's a woman that takes a class of mine at a different gym and she's been saying she wants to invest in an exercise business. So you should meet her. You never know. Maybe you guys would get along and you could do something. And Elizabeth and I had lunch a couple of days later. It was the winter, January of 2006. And it was one of those crazy things. We're just about the most opposite two people that you've ever met. But we shared this common vision of, you know, it could be different. It can be produced. It could be social.

It can be joyful. It could be a brand. It could be an experience. It could have technology. It could have customer service. I mean, at the time, there was no boutique fitness in New York at all. And we literally left lunch that day. I got into my taxi, my phone rang, and she said, I'm going to look for real estate and you research towels, and I'll call you on Thursday.

And sure enough, on Thursday, my phone rang. And she said to me, I have found a space on Craigslist. It's a five-year sublet of an old dance studio in the back of a lobby. You should meet me there. And we met. And we opened. Five months later, we opened. And I say this only to say that neither of us were entrepreneurs. Neither of us were experienced in the fitness business at all.

We were simply looking to create something for ourselves, finding joy and community through exercise, which was something that didn't exist. And so when we started this company with $250,000, we were the only people that worked there. I mean, we took the lease, we rolled in 35 rented bikes, we built the entire studio out of kitchen cabinetry from Ikea. And so when we ended up with, you know, 2,000 plus employees, it was not at all what we had planned to do. And so leading that many people, like you had just said, you know, really took work on understanding how to build relationships and how to be a leader. And that is really one of the most profound things that I learned, both in my marriage and in my time at SoulCycle. I would say that those are two really fundamental relationships, that one with my business partner and the one with my husband that really I have

put a lot of work into very intentional work, not just sort of like, oh, let's be nice to each other. Let me buy you a gift, but real work in terms of understanding how you create successful relationships. Okay. So before we get to the difficult relationship or difficult conversation part, what goes into building from your experience? And, you know, I'm not asking you to point to any science or any of that, like there is some of that, but what, from, from your experience, what goes into building a great relationship? Yeah. So it's interesting because I have actually, actually, this is what I'm working on for my next business. Elizabeth and I are working on creating a new category,

and we're actually calling it relational fitness, which is really interesting and something that we've been working on and studying for quite a few years with different researchers and scientists and all different types of things. But I think that people assume, right, that, you know, you wouldn't get your dream job and then never go to work again. You wouldn't run a marathon and think that you could around, you know, the work that people need to do on relationships. And I absolutely think that there are a few skills that people can really learn and practice. That's the thing also, right? You know, you can't just have one great conversation and think that it's going to change an entire relationship. But we've really done a lot of studies on active listening, on creating containers to have conversations in. There are real ways to have conversations. I think, you know,

when you talk about having difficult conversations, what we've really learned over time is that it's not what you say, but how you say it. It starts with everything from when you say it, making sure it's a good time for the person that you're talking to, that you're not bombarding somebody, to explaining something, being the way that you feel, not judging their actions, but using the right sentence stems so that you're not putting somebody on the defensive. And then also having a conversation in a way that somebody else feels heard, that they can just sort of have their time to air out the way that they feel, and they can feel understood. I think so often,

we are not actually having dialogues with people, we're each having our own monologue. You're letting me know how you feel. And while you're letting me know how you feel, I'm already thinking I'm going to tell you how I feel about how you feel, which is really not a dialogue at all. That's me judging how you feel. And there's definitely a lot of science out there that shows us that we can create environments and we can create containers and we can create formats. That if people are willing to practice those three things in the same way that we all have exercise regimens, in the same way that we all have diets, in the same way that we all get different types of degrees, I think people can really learn how to have

difficult conversations. I love it. So to make it tangible, I'm imagining that you would, you'd nod your head to this, which is, um, I feel that you're a jerk. No, no, no. Okay. So I got it wrong. Okay. I feel that you're really, you're really sloppy. That's fine. So, and then what I would say to you is I would say, I'm totally joking by the way, Julie, I don't want would say to you is I would say, I'm totally joking, by the way, Julie, I don't want you to think like I'm a, Oh no, no, I'm not at all. Yeah. Okay. But what I would say that to you is, so what I'm hearing you say, Michael, is that you think that I'm really sloppy. Did I get that?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So let me ask you a question. Is there more about that? Yes. When you're sloppy, I get crazy because it feels very disrespectful. Got that. So what I'm hearing you say is that when I'm sloppy, it makes you crazy because it feels very disrespectful to you. Did I get that? That's what I just said. Is there more? Yeah, good. I see. I know exactly where you're going. I love this. Let's pull back the curtain for folks that are listening to this. Like what you were doing is you were listening to the words, but working to understand the emotion. You were playing that back to me so that you could, so that I know that you are at least

trying to follow along to like my experience. And I was not being articulate in any way. It's like, you know, that at all making it difficult for you. And the thing that you did that was actually quite remarkable, if you can do it in the real relationship, it is remarkable in our play along. It's not so remarkable, but you didn't get sucked in. You didn't get defensive. I was critiquing you and you didn't get defensive. You didn't stonewall. You didn't, you know, do that stuff where you're like, forget about it. Well, you know what you are? You think I'm sloppy. You're really sloppy, you know, or fill in the blank. So those are some of the mechanical things that I just saw you do.

And what else do you do in relationships to help, you know, connect with other people? So it's actually pretty amazing. When my first daughter was born, my husband and I, who I would say have a great relationship, you know, I would pick him all over again. I would still say it was the best decision I ever made, which just goes to show you that, you know, we had our first child and we started to have real communication issues because all of a sudden we weren't just two people that could, you know, have a great time together at dinner and then we can each go do whatever we want and I can work as late as I needed to. You know, somebody had to come home and relieve the nanny, bathe the baby, you know, whatever it was.

And so we started to have real issues because for the first time, there was real conflict and compromise that needed to happen. And so we actually went and we studied with these amazing relational therapists. Their names are Harville Hunt

and Helen Lakelly Hunt. And they have created this course called Getting the Love That You Want. And it's really about, you know, creating this method of having a conversation. It really teaches you how to have a conversation. And there are a couple of things that you can do to answer your question. You can learn how to have a conversation in a different way. And in that scenario, I mean, what's so interesting, and I think it's so relevant for what's going on in the world right now, is here's the thing. You know, people spend years in therapy, and that's amazing.

But the thing is that when I go to personal therapy and you go to personal therapy, we each begin to understand our own inner lives, which is absolutely necessary also to know yourself before you can be in relationships with other people. But in those conversations, what we're giving each other a chance to do is the listener actually benefits more than the person that gets to speak their piece, because it's like, I'm having a moment to inhabit your world, to see it the way that you see it. And the truth is, if you and I had a real sort of, you know, friction or situation, by the time I asked you if there's more about four or five times, now you're actually telling me the way that you feel, not the fact that I didn't clean up the

kitchen and I was sloppy. And when you feel, when I can understand how you feel, I may or may not agree with you. But the one thing that I can feel that we can both agree on is I can feel empathy. Because the thing is, I care about you. Otherwise, I wouldn't be having a conversation with you to begin with. And so it's a really fascinating thing for us to all learn how to inhabit somebody else's world. I mean, to get somebody else's world is one of the most important things that we can teach people. Again, you don't have to see it my way way and I don't have to see it your way. But if we want to be in a relationship together, we have to at least have enough respect for each other to give each other the time and the space to be heard.

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fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code Findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. You know, one of the greatest things I think my wife and I did is we went to therapy and she kicked me out of the house. We're married seven years and she's like, I love you. You're a wonderful person, but I don't know how to be me in this relationship. And it wasn't, I'm being

salacious when I say kicked out. It was more like, Hey, I need, I need to figure some stuff out. And it was ridiculously scary, you know? And, and then, so we, Hey, I need, I need to figure some stuff out. And it was ridiculously scary, you know? And, and then, so a couple months later we made the commitment to like, go to do work together. And I'm, I'm at that point I'm licensed as a psychologist, but you can't really do your own, you can't like, you need some, you need that independent person to say, wait, have you seen the frame this way? It's like, oh, yeah, that's, oh, I've been missing it. And it sounds like you've done the same and then you've applied it in business. Some of those same insights.

Correct. So Elizabeth and I also, to the point of your first question, you know, very early on, we were lucky enough to get pretty successful. I mean, our business started to rock and roll after about six months. You know, we were profitable after a year. We were really cash flowing. It was more than we'd expected. I mean, we started out with this tiny little business model, really, again, doing it for the love of creating a product that we ourselves wanted to use. And sooner rather than later, we found that we had actually a third business partner. And that was not working, which became an issue for us when you talk about having to have a difficult conversation. Plus the fact that we were starting to have employees and

bunches of them at a time, we would have 10 and then 20 and 30. And neither of us had ever managed large teams before. And so we actually decided to see a business therapist, just probably the same type of person as you and your wife saw, but for your relationship. And she probably was the best, one of the best things that we ever did for the health of SoulCycle. I think that Elizabeth and I committing to work on our relationship after just one year of being in the business, it taught us to be leaders. It taught us to be listeners. It taught us to understand how to have conversations with our employees. And the most amazing thing it did was as we learned these skills, we were able to teach them to the rest of the organization. So we learned skills like how to empty your bucket, which is really how to have

a difficult conversation, right? And the next thing we knew, we would codify it and turn it into a lesson. And everybody at SoulCycle would have to, you know, spend a morning learning how to empty your bucket or, you know, how to get unstuck. And we did, I'm sure this is a lot of the work that maybe you do with people, but what was fascinating and really, we learned on the job, which was so great, you know, and as we learned, we actually had a great, our employee number one, who sort of was a jack of all trades and ultimately turned into our chief culture officer. And she would just sort of run around after Elizabeth and I with notebooks and we would learn something and she would codify it and she would teach it to everybody. And I think it was a combination of,

you know, the DNA of Elizabeth and I being real people, people, you know, we both really, it is definitely in our DNA to take care of people, to connect people, to make people a priority. I think it was the combination of that DNA and all of the lessons and the hard work that we did along the way. And we had a lot of difficult conversations. As you know, having a business partner is difficult. You know, sharing money and workloads and responsibilities and everybody has different types of things going on at home at different times, and you want to sell the business, and I want to keep the business, and, you know, we should grow, we should stay the same size, we should take money out, we should leave money in. There's a lot of decisions to make together.

And I think that, you know, learning and really working on this relationship was one of the things that I think created not only the internal culture of SoulCycle, but I also think that it helped us to create community with our customers because we really understood how to have conversations with people. That's awesome. And this is so you can get stuck in the conversations or you can move through them. And so this idea of business, like, and in life, either you're growing or you're not. And if you're not growing, you know, there's you, you are stuck. And so it sounds like you would meet those and then figure them out and then

meet a new one and figure it out. And how would you help people empty their cup, empty their bucket? Sorry. The Zen cone empty your cup, but you are using bucket. So again, it's interesting what you said about you and your wife sort of making the commitment to do the work. I think that at SoulCycle, because Elizabeth and I sat on top of the company, and because we were sort of role models in the fact that we were absolutely willing to work on ourselves, that we were willing to raise our hand and say, you know, I don't know everything, but I'm gonna learn how to be a better leader.

I'm gonna learn how to have the right conversation. I think that, you know, making that commitment to that, when you do that, you create a space that feels safe, right? And so much of what has to happen in terms of these conversations is that they have to happen in safe spaces. And when you create environments like that for people, then your employees can have a conversation like getting unstuck, where they can say to their colleague or their boss even, hey, I'm really stuck because you don't seem to

make me a priority. And when you cancel meetings with me 50 times a day, I can't get what I need to get from you. And so I can't get my work done, which is making me feel stuck both physically in my work and also creatively or however that is. But I think that it allows when you set the stage for people to have conversations like that, not only set the stage, but you actually make it a norm, that it's kind of a requirement of the job that we are all, we used to say like, nobody goes home with lumpy carpets. You know, at the end of the day, it is everybody's job to make sure that we're all coming back tomorrow clean. Nobody's going to be punished for it. And you might not always get your way, but people can be heard here. And I think that's super important.

That is awesome. What is it like being a female CEO, female founder of CEO? I have no idea what that's like. Is it an asset? Is it hard? Is it wonderful? Is it just like I would imagine it's CEO, CEO? How do you think know, I think that's a profile that is always changing, even from when, you know, when Elizabeth and I built SoulCycle in 2006, we had almost no mentors, role models, anybody to go to. entrepreneurs in New York City. So the idea of starting businesses like this in New York City, I mean, most of the entrepreneurs were living in Silicon Valley at that time. And so not living in San Francisco already, we didn't have much of an entrepreneurial community. But on top of it, it was very hard for us to find women that were not only either creating something, but even CEOs of companies. And so it's interesting. I think now you see so much more of that. And, you know, people have decided to allocate a lot more money toward funding women, women's businesses and putting women in leadership positions. I think along with that has come a lot of pressure and a lot of responsibility and a lot of people looking under a microscope at women in a way that is also difficult. I think there's a lot of pressure on female CEOs. I think there's a

standard to really be better almost. And I will just say that for me and for Elizabeth, when we were, when we were, you know, running SoulCycle, we would often, people would ask us the question, you know, can you believe that this business has become so successful despite the fact that you're women? And we would always say, you know, we would always say it's actually because of the fact that we are women, that this business is so successful. I mean, so much of our culture was based on the fact that, you know, that this business is so successful. I mean, so much of our culture was based on the fact that, you know, we were two women that were nurturing, that paid attention to details, that cared about how people felt. And I think that often, you know, female CEOs still feel like they have to act like men to do, you know, to feel like they are going to be

heard or do a good job. But I think that, you know, we always looked at being women running a company and celebrated those differences and said, it's not in spite of, but it's because of that we're so good at this. Yeah. Very cool. And I hesitate, the reason I hesitated to ask you the question the way I asked it is because that thing that you said, which is, it's amazing you have such a successful business and your women, you know, that little tag that sometimes I get confused, like female founder. Well, okay, I'm a founder, but no one says a male founder.

And in some ways it's this weird disqualifier almost. And I'll tell you where I first learned that my, my, my father-in-law came to America with $20 in his pocket. He was 15 from El Salvador. And he says, Mike, well, let me give you two parts of the story. So my neighbor is, was from Trinidad and Tobago. We was meaning that we moved. And so one day we're having a conversation about race. This was probably 20 years ago. And he says, he goes, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not African-American. I said, oh, he says, I'm black. I said, oh, okay. And he says, I don't identify at all with Africa. I'm from Trinidad. And let me tell you about that culture. And I was like, oh,

okay. So this was a little bit of a thing that's playing forward right now, for sure. And then my father-in-law, maybe it was like, I don't know, six months ago, he said, Mike, we've never been fully American. I said, what do you mean? He goes, I love this country. He says, but I am Hispanic American. I'm Latin American. There's a hyphen.

I go, oh, I never thought, I thought that was like a badge, like a wonderful badge, like a proclamation of my heritage and the wonder, you know, how wonderful it is to be American as well. Like this, this wonderful badge. And he goes, no, no, no. It's like a, it's not that. And so that's why I stammered a little bit. Like, is that a fee? When I say female founder, do you cringe or do you go, that's right? That's exactly what it is. You know, for me, I say that's right. And that's exactly what it is. I think that it is, you know, I think that it is a descriptor.

And the way that I look at it is not at all from a place of, oh, you know, it's lesser than or it's something that I had to overcome. For me, I actually do think of it as a badge. I think that women are amazing at running companies. And they do bring something different than men bring to companies. But there's no doubt that, you know, often Elizabeth and I still find, you know, ourselves in a room where we are the only founders that happen to be female. You know, we are still in a minority and that's for sure. But I have never, I have never much thought of it as a real disadvantage. In fact, you know, when you talk about sort of the psychology of, you know,

how you work and what gets you going apropos of our conversation. To me, it wasn't even a thing. I, it was, we were doing it. It didn't matter. I didn't care if I was, you know, a girl, a boy, a woman, a man, like we were making this thing happen. Like I, there, there was, there was, there was never anything. And there was never a rock in my shoe. Like we were making this happen, however it was going to happen. So it sounds like you were driven by purpose. Totally. What is your purpose? You know, it's so funny.

Whenever people talk about their mission statement or their purpose, to me, it always sounds so out of body. You know, I feel like it's become such a trend for people to put their mission statement up on the walls, put their purpose on their website. For me, it was like, I wanted to be a part of it. You know, it was a movement that I wanted to create so that I could be in it, if not leading it. You know, I wanted it, I wanted to physically be in the center of it. It wasn't something that, you know, it was a part of me. I felt like I wanted to create this tribe for me to be in. I was looking for a

community that I could be a part of. And I think that's actually, again, one of the reasons that SoulCycle was SoulCycle. There was never a real hierarchy between the people that worked there and the people that rode there. In fact, everybody that worked at the front desk, we only hired people that were fanatical riders and users of the product. So when customers would check in, you would often hear employees and customers having conversations where,

Oh my God, did you take so-and-so's class? I couldn't believe how hard the hill was. Can you believe they played that song? I hope they released the new record tomorrow. You couldn't discern almost between who worked there and who was coming in to take a class. And I think that's really because that's always the way that Elizabeth and I saw ourselves. We were part of the community. I mean, we were in that community. We were physically touching that community until the day that we walked out of the building. And so for me, it was always about creating a community that I could really

feel a part of. Okay. And then if that community was vibrant, for what aim? I think to lift people up. It's so clear that your purpose is for people to be better. And the way that you're going to go about it was like, your mission was to create an environment, a tribe that felt wonderful to be in. So you were being lifted by being a co-creator of something that was much larger than you. I'll tell you the number one thing I miss in the quarantine is still going to SoulCycle. You know, there's a real loss in not being a part of that physical community. But, you know, it's interesting because with the instructors, which it's a whole

other thing about, you know, the instructors were just such a big part of the magic. But even the way that they were compensated, it was always about lifting other people up. So, you know, you had the super master instructors that were very popular and, you know, the bikes would go live at noon on Monday and they had two and 300 people weightless and they couldn't, you know, nobody could get into the classes. And I used to say to them, here's the thing. I don't care if your class is full. I'm already paying you well for that. To me, I will reward you to make sure that the guy in front of you or the guy behind

you, you know, is fed your wait list because you are their champion. Because you're on your bike saying like, hey, you should try the guy in front of me. You're behind me. You know, I used to think about the classes, sort of the, the progress of the day is like a relay race, right? You know, one instructor handing off the baton to the next, and hopefully the energy of the day would just continue to rise as sort of, you know, the studio was being lifted up and lifted up and lifted up. And I think that it really was, you know, from every way, you know,

in every way from compensation to recognition to, you know, praise and the way that people were treated. It was really all about people were really rewarded for treating each other well and helping each other rise. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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It's so evident, like, yeah, okay, if I'm going to build this community where people are going to feel better, be better, you know, look better, I guess, from a fitness standpoint, you know, but really it's about health and being better, that we got to come from that place on a regular basis. And so your framing of it is super consistent, but I want to get underneath of that, which is oftentimes the right questions will help us find the right answers. Right. And so what are some of the right questions that, that you found to be important for you as a successful business person, a woman, a mother, a wife, like what are some of the right questions to ask to examine? You know, a lot of times, you know, Elizabeth has a great statement and

she always says, you know, her advice to entrepreneurs is always that they should just trust their gut. Because the truth is that you really do usually know in your being, you know, what the right decisions are and what the right questions are to ask. I, you know, my business coach has often said to me, and I just think I can get chills thinking about it sometimes, you know, we'll spend hours talking about a business decision that I have to make and, you know, what's the right answer and what's the wrong answer and legally and how much money should and what's fair and equity and, you know, what's the right answer and what's the wrong answer and legally and how much money should and what's fair and equity and, you know, you're throwing around all these words and then sometimes she'll just say to me, you know what, Julie, close your eyes.

When you think about it, at the end of your life, you've made this decision, you know, who is it that you wanted to be in the world? You know, did you want to be a person that left somebody else feeling great? Even if somebody else in business told you you were world? You know, did you want to be a person that left somebody else feeling great? Even if somebody else in business told you you were being, you know, a dummy and giving away too much or too little? Do you want? Who is it? You know, what when you close your eyes and picture the end of your life? Who is it that you wanted to be? And I think that's a really interesting question to ask ourselves. I think that it's so easy in the moment to, you know, I'm a very anxious person. I have tons of anxiety.

So on top of, you know, on top of always trying to make the right decision, then I have to worry about if I've made the right decision for at least, you know, a couple of days before and a couple of days after I've actually made the decision. You know, I would not like to leave you with the impression that I have all this clarity around decision making because I certainly do not. So on the anxiety piece, like how pervasive is it? Like scale one to ten. And let's say, let's just say a seven is like I'm flirting with clinical anxiety.

I'm going to say it's a seven. I'm going to say that in some ways, my anxiety has served me well. Yeah. You know, when you think about, you know, I don't want to say it's a motivator, but a lot of times when you ask, you know, what are the right questions to ask? I mean, I am asking myself questions in my sleep. I'm only questioning how I can be two steps in front of this and three steps in front of that. And if I don't do this, what will happen with that? And if I do do that, you know, sort of I'm'm, because I'm such a people person, I'm also always

asking myself questions about how other people are feeling, you know, how it affects their worlds. But I do think that the anxiety is interesting. It manifests, It manifests itself in a lot of productivity. Fear can do that, right? Like fear can definitely do that. What is it that you're afraid of? I won't change my thought. It kind of hit me what I think it might be, but I won't change my thought. But I'm curious, where are you with what you're afraid of? I think it's a loss of control. Oh, I didn't go there. Yeah, okay.

It's definitely a control issue. I mean, I have real phobias. I'm like a, I'm a crazy claustrophobic. Like I don't take elevators. I live in New York City type of thing. And your business is like packing people in to a small tight space and sweating on each other. You know, like, yeah, okay.

Nice job. That's awesome. Yeah, I think it's a control thing. I would like to know what you thought it was. Yeah, I thought it was letting others down. Being people-centered, I thought it was letting others down. And what I also wanted to ask was like this thing called FOPO, fear of people's opinion. And I think it's one of the great constrictors for human potential is

that we're obsessed in some respects or over indulging in what people might be thinking of us if we look bad, sound bad, fill in the blanks. And I was wondering if you had a scale on FOPO, 10 being high, where would you be on fear of people's opinions? It's that thing that shows up when you walk on stage for many people that go, oh, wow, this is different than practicing in my mirror. Definitely. I think that as I've gotten older, I care less. I think that as I've gotten, you know, to be perfectly honest, to be more successful, I care less. Which, you know, I don't know if that's a misuse of ego or not, but. No, there is a point where we can decouple what we do from who we are. And oftentimes it's too late, meaning that we don't get that level, that metric of

success to say, oh, I'm free. And so we end up being bound by FOPO and fears, you know, too long. But it sounds like you had a nice triggering event, which is you had a payday and you said, okay, I did it. Now, who am I? You know, like, okay, well, I'm going to get freer than I was. Yes. Although I will say that on something that I don't think a lot of founders do a lot of talking about is what it's like to leave a company that you've created, especially when it's something that is really, you know, soul cycle for Elizabeth and I is it's our love child. I mean, the words on the wall or poems that we wrote on the, you know, it's, it's,

there's nothing in that room that is not a real reflection of the two of us. And I think that, you know, even with a payday, which is fantastic, you're still are a little bit lost when you walk out the door on that last day, especially in a business where you see so many people a day, it's so public facing. Plus for me, you know, sticking along with what I told you, you know, I really created this community so that I could kind of be this part of it. So to exit something like that is a pretty big deal. So I would say that when I left, that probably was one of the times in my life where my fear of what other people thought or sort of my loss of identity or who was I now not being the CEO of SoulCycle. That was probably a real time for me when I would say that that was pretty high. Over the last, you know, I've been gone now for

about four years. And I would say, it's been really interesting, you know, kind of taking all those pieces and trying to figure out exactly what you said, you know, kind of taking all those pieces and trying to figure out exactly what you said, you know, where do you take the piece that's like, great, you know, I did something good, I was successful. Okay, let me register that in and see if I can calm that down a little bit. This is still who I'd like to be or what I'd like to accomplish. I'm not sure who I'm going to be next. That raises it up a little bit. You know, I'm somebody's mom, I'm somebody's wife, you know, so it's interesting. I think it's really interesting. And I think you're, I think at different times in my life, it goes up and down.

Yeah. Okay. And then do you have a practice to work with your anxiety? Do you do, is it meditation, mindfulness, breathing work, journaling, good conversations? Like what do you do? Exercise? Soul cycle. Yeah. Exercise. It's really soul cycle do exercise soul cycle yeah exercise it's really soul cycle i mean honestly it's you know what's so interesting about soul cycle is you know we really designed it i mean there's it's not um there's no secret that the class is absolutely engineered i mean it's it's it's a framework that we created, which is we, we, we move you through, you know, five emotional stages while you're doing your exercise. And if we do it right, you really should, you know, we, we warm you up, we break you down, we pop the party,

we give you a soulful moment and we send you home like a hero. And awesome. I didn't know that you had that framework underneath of it that's really cool and if we move you through it right it's really you really are getting it's a real practice meditation catharsis release you get triumph you get endorphins you get to reflect you know become clear uh i i have for me it's kind of the best meditation that I've ever found only because it's very hard for me to sit and practice meditation. I do work with somebody who, you know, asks me to identify all the physical, you know, feelings in my body and equate them with all of the things and do the breathing and I do it, I'm dutiful about it. But I will say, it's for me, it's still not soul cycle. And I'll tell you my real, my, my real catharsis is people. I really get high from, from people, the relationships in

life. So how are you doing in the quarantine? It's interesting. It's definitely been hard. Although I will say that I'm actually enjoying the people that I'm living with, which I feel that we don't always take the time to do that conversations and be connected to my friends. But it's hard. It's definitely hard. It's interesting because I mentioned that we are working on our next business, which is about relational health. And I had always envisioned starting it as a brick and mortar business because I love physical gatherings of people.

That's really a lot of what I'm in it for. And we're doing a digital pivot, which is interesting. It's interesting to think about how you connect people and improve relational health without people being able to be together. Yeah. So that's what I wanted to get to that place with you, which is both businesses that you're part of. We spent a lot about SoulCycle. I wanted to spend most of our conversation about SoulCycle because you birthed it, you know, not to have a metaphor that's not apt, but you really developed and nurtured that. a community-based in-person shared space, shared experience. And I know there's complications, at least from what I read on your exit there, you know, and how that went at the end for the company, not the end, but a phase that you're in. But really what I wanted to get to was you were disruptive and part of another disruptive company about a shared space experience. And it was purposeful and intentful and was for, you know, good.

So what do you imagine the next, let's say 24 months to what is the next three, two, three years look like for physical brick and mortar shared experiences or digital shared experiences, or like, how are you imagining the future of business? Yeah. well, it's really hard to say. I think that we're at least another, I think we're at least another two years, to be honest with you,

away from gathering the way that we used to. I think we will have ebbs and flows and stops and starts where people have quarantine fatigue and decide to go to Starbucks. And then there's, unfortunately, there'll be some scares or some spikes and we'll be back indoors again. And so it's hard, it's hard to imagine that there will be consistency in, in physical gathering for a little while, I think. And so it's, it's interesting. I mean, I have to say it's really interesting to watch so many people trying to figure out how to create digital connection. I've been, you know, studying and participating in so many different online groups, talking circles, different types of meetings,

therapy, just to kind of understand what that experience feels like. And it will be very interesting to see. Some people are doing it better than others. It's definitely something that I think that there will be fatigue around. I think that for a lot of people, digital connection is a great band-aid, but I'm not sure that it's the answer. You know what's one of the traps is that I miss eye contact. Yeah. You know, so when I look at you, I can't quite get the micro expressions in your eye contact. And so that part is, and then obviously on top of that, the physical touch, you know, like a hug and whatnot. So those are massive, massively important for oxytocin, for fill in the blanks from brain chemicals and relational development. You know, our brain craves both of those.

Totally. We need to find some solutions there. That being said, you have an authentic way about you. What does it mean to you to be authentic? What does it mean to keep it real? Because that's what it feels like you've done in this conversation. I'm pretty comfortable with myself, I would say. I'm happy with who I am. It doesn't mean I don't obsess about everything all day long that I would like to be better at, you know, be different, all of those things. I'm just like everybody else in

that way. But I think underneath it all, I feel lucky to be me. I feel happy even through my anxiety. I feel like even when I'm anxious, I'm sort of driven by my curiosity for the world, not by some manic type of, you know, depression or anxiety. I think that really, you know, most of my anxiety stems from the fact that I just, I want to do and see and be everywhere and everything. But just for a note, empathy and curiosity are both inoculators to anxiety. It's pretty cool. Like those are two of your core signatures, you know? And if the thing is about control, and I don't, I'm not going to double click on this question,

but can you trace it back to why control is important to you? And I'm not going to double click, like, you know, tell me that time when, but like, can you trace it back? You know, I think I grew up in a household where it was, I don't want to say it was out of control, but interestingly enough, my parents sort of, there weren't a whole lot of boundaries. There weren't a whole lot of guidelines. And I think that, you know, I sort of, I sort of ran our house from a very young age. And, you know, I do, I do think it stems from that. I think it stems from, from growing up in a place where it was not, um, things could feel out of control. You know, things could, things could feel out of control. Yeah. And to me, you're giving me, um, the indicators that I would imagine about the early childhood, you know, early life experiences. That's why we do it. That's why we grab and grasp for control is because we feel so out of control at an early age

that it's like, I need to organize and be in control to feel that I can settle in. Cause that was a survival tactic early, you know? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and it's facilitative in high performing environments. And it's also quite constricting at other points because it's so exhausting. And you know, the truth is, what do we really control? Our thoughts, our responses, you know, our actions. It's so limited. And that's why I like, I want to rebrand control freak. Because, you know, that's got a negative connotation, right?

But I want to rebrand control freak because, you know, that's got a negative connotation, right? But I want to rebrand it. Like, I feel like I'm a control freak trying to master what is in my control. So I'm really a freak about like that, like relentlessly trying to master my thoughts, trying to have command over, you know, my words and my actions and my responses. But it's got such a negative connotation. Like maybe there's a, you're, you're a brand guru. Maybe you can figure that one out. I love it. I'm actually thinking, I'm just, I'm actually thinking control freak is a great sweatshirt. It's, it's great, isn't it?

And at first blush, it's like, oh, so you're a control freak. Well, you know, if you're on the path of mastery, maybe not. Oh, believe me, my, my, my greatest joy in the pandemic has been when I actually can get, you know, a grocery delivery slot to send to my parents. Because then in a weird way, I feel like remotely I'm able to control the fact that they are not going to the grocery store. I'm reducing risk. Somehow I'm alleviating a better chance of the pandemic from hitting my parents. I want to introduce you to, with that compassion, I want to introduce you to, and I don't even know if they're, they're a sponsor now, but I don't know if they'll be in this episode, but they're awesome. It's Thrive Market.

Oh, yeah. I order from them all the time. from whole organic, you know, compassion sourced, fill in the blanks, companies that donate 2% or 1% of their earnings. I love what they're doing. Okay. I want to honor your time. And, but I've got a couple of quick hits, you know, and so I don't, this is not meant to nurture unless you really want to pull on the threads, but how do you finish this thought stem?

It all comes down to. Everybody wants to just matter. People want to be heard, understood, and appreciated. Love it. Mastery is marked by? Fulfillment. Blank is the root of all evil. Ego.

I'll leave it. I know. I love that. Cause I was going to pull on that, a very, um, important relationship that you had in your second business, but I, like, I didn't want to go there, but that is too funny. Okay. Uh, hate to lose or love to compete. Love to compete. Success is sharing it with the people that you love. I was part of a project where one of the old, salty, hardened, been around the block, you know, he was a general in the military. And he pushed over a note to one of the folks that I was working on the project with. And it was a huge project. I mean, it was like 142 news outlets were watching it the day

that it happened. And he's got this little note that he slides over. He says, success without sharing is a failure. And I don't know if it was his or whatever, but it's like, that is just like, wow, that is so good. Okay. Do you journal? I don't. Okay. So how do you archive? I'm not great at journaling. I aspire, I go in and out of it, but I've got a process that I do to archive what's going on inside of me. How do you do it? I don't really. I think you talk. I think you're in conversations with people. Yes, I do talk a lot. No, no, no. I didn't mean it that way. I think you're in conversations with people. Yes, I do talk a lot. No, no, no. I didn't mean it that way. I think that you use your words and like you work it out as you're going.

I do. And I will say that, you know, not only in business, but in my personal life, I'd like to say I'm extremely lucky, but I would also like to think that it's one of my, you know, best skill sets is that I am surrounded by amazing people that feed me. I have an unbelievable network of, you know, people that are close to me, each one of them for something in some particular talent or something that I have found in them that nurtures a part of me, I'm very good at surrounding myself with people that feed different parts of me. And so to your point, I do find that, you know, there are different people that I go to for different things, all of whom really do help me work through things. There you go. Okay. Thank you, Julie, for sharing your insights, being authentic and allowing that to be so

evident that that is one of your crown jewels, empathy, curiosity, authenticity, the anxiousness channeled to be able to stay the course when it's hard and the effort required to, you know, explore the purpose and mission and vision of what you think is possible for yourself and others. And it, it's really clear how you've done it. So what a breath of fresh air. I just want to say, thank you. You're so nice. You're so nice. Thank you. Have a great day. Okay. See you soon. My pleasure. Okay. Bye. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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