Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Texas Basketball Head Coach Shaka Smart on Bringing Out The Best in Others

Episode Date: August 16, 2017

Shaka Smart is the Men’s Basketball Head Coach at the University of Texas and he's got a phenomenal way about himself.It just jumps out of this conversation how much he cares about other people, how invested he is in relationships, how he's working to be the most authentic person he can be — and at the same time pull that out of other people.He's definitely a relationship-based coach, which is obvious in this conversation, and he's got a real crisp point of view about how to help others become their best.I hope you enjoy learning from Shaka as much as I did and that we're doing justice in these conversations to highlight the brilliance and the genius within people.I also want to thank Ryan Holiday, a former guest on the podcast, for introducing me to Coach Smart._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, how they've organized their life efforts, the psychological framework that they've built to be able to do difficult and challenging things, and then the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success and building those relationships. It takes more than effort.

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So I hope you enjoy this conversation. My hope is that we're doing justice in these conversations to highlight the brilliance and the genius within people. So with that being said, I also want to thank Ryan Holiday, who was a former guest on the Finding Mastery podcast for introducing Coach Smart. And so, Ryan, thank you very much. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Coach Shaka Smart. Shaka. Yes. How are you? I'm great. Okay. First easy kind of thought I have is like, how did you get the name? I got the name from my dad. It's probably the only good thing my dad ever did for me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is that real? Yeah, that's a real story.

I think my mom was going to name me Brian or something like that. Mom was more level-headed? Would have been probably a different life all around. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so right out of the gates, it's the only good thing my dad gave me or did for me. So you like your name? Yes, it's a good name. It's good to have a unique name or did for me. So you like your name? Yes, it's a good name. It's

good to have a unique name. Yeah. Okay. How come? You know, right off the bat, I think it kind of sets you apart and it sets you up to be a little bit distinct or different. Yeah. Okay. There you go. And then what was it like with dad? Like what was the history there that was challenging? Oh, I'll give you the short version. Okay. I was born in Madison, Wisconsin, and my mom and dad were together, but not married. And my dad's from Trinidad, which is one of the islands in the West Indies. Trinidad, Tobago. Yep. Way down the Southern West Indies, almost down to South America. Soccer, track and field. Big on soccer. Yeah. Big on soccer. And so when I was

two years old, he left the family just to be gone for a couple of weeks to go back to Trinidad. And then he didn't come back for many, many, many years. And there was no communication or anything like that. Ended up resurfacing a little bit in our lives, but was never a real positive fatherly influence on me. It's actually a, it's a big part of why I'm in coaching now. Because? Well, coaches kind of replaced that for me or filled that void, you know, even from when I was young and then particularly in high school and college, I always looked to coaches as that fatherly influence. Yeah. It's, um, I can't remember the stats that I came across a number of years ago, but there was some stats about the

number of hours that coaches take up in kids' lives. And if you think about it, you know, wake up, the parents wake kids up in the morning, there's like 15 to 45 minutes, you know, depending on how rushed the morning is, then they go to school. And then those that minutes, you know, depending on how rushed the morning is, then they go to school. And then those that have, you know, the opportunity to, to have a sport or performance or an art, then they go to that coach for two hours, three hours, at least, you know, right. That's just the part when you're on the court. Right. And then, so if school's over at three practices done at seven ish, somewhere in that range, quick dinner. And then so parents have a quick dinner and a quick wake up.

And coaches and teachers are all the time in between. Well, we say all the time, you know, in our profession, we spend way more time with our players than we do with our own kids. And then obviously the flip side of that is true as well. Our players spend way more time around us than they do their own families, especially at the college level when they're away from their families. Okay. How old are you? I'm 40. Right. That's what I thought. And so new family, young family, I mean, for you? I have been married 11 years and we have a daughter. My wife's name is Maya. Our daughter's name is Zora.

They're both named after writers and Zora is five years old. Zora, what is the writer? Zora Neale Hurston. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. So you might not have this answer, but I ask everyone I can like as a phenomenal professional as you are, how are you managing that relationship between home and work? And you, you might say I'm blowing

it. You might say I've got a good handle on it. And so like, before you tell me how, like, are you someone I should listen to or, or, or like, no? I'm not the expert. Yeah. Okay. Good. Yeah. And I want to listen. It's because good and bad are both teachers, right? I think it's like anything else. It's day to day. And it's one of those things where you can kids is one thing, and then the relationship with your wife is something else. Sometimes we lump those things together as family, but you can actually do a really good job in one area and then not so good of a job in the other. Yeah. How do you manage it for yourself, like the time away from loved ones? Well, I think the first thing is just understanding

that you only have a certain amount of time in the day. And I've heard you talk about this before. It's impossible to be great at everything. And it's also impossible to be great at one thing if you're trying to be completely balanced in everything in your life. So you start with that understanding and then you just have to be very intentional with how you spend your time. Hmm. Yeah. It keeps coming up like being intentional, which is, you know, another way of saying being here now, being grounded, being purposely engaged wherever you are. And, you know, that feels wonderful for the person uh that you're with and it also feels wonderful for yourself right so you're not literally like schizophrenic in in some kind of way of dealing

with the present moment well and to do that you have to be in the moment uh but there's so many things uh what all of us do that can pull you out of that and And, uh, but the one thing about being around kids is they are very aware of how aware you are. You know, they, they understand, are you there with them or are you preoccupied, whether it's on the phone in our business, we're constantly on the phone, we're constantly texting or taking the next call. Uh, and those things obviously can take you out of whatever it is that you were doing. Okay. That's a cool thought. And I want to get to that. What, and before we go there, I want to get a little bit more shape of your upbringing so that I can, we can better understand how you have landed where you are now. And I also want to understand how you made the decision to go

to Texas, you know, and, and to coach there as you are a highly recruited coach. Okay. So what was it like growing up? I know dad left at two. I can fill in some blanks, but what does that mean? Well, I was raised by a phenomenal single mom. How many brothers and sisters? I have three brothers and one of them's adopted. Okay. And then I also have three brothers and a sister on my father's side that I've never met. But I grew up with these three brothers in our home. So there was four of us and my mom. And like so many of the guys that I've had a chance to coach over the years, I really benefited from coming from a single parent home where there was a great deal of love and support.

My mom didn't have many rules at all. She trusted us quite a bit. I know that's something that you like to talk about a lot is trust. Do you trust people or not? I've kind of learned to be very trusting because of her. She really only had a couple of different things that she held us accountable to. Everything else was up to us because she was working a couple of different jobs and we were figuring a lot of things out on our own. Okay. Hold on real quick. That trust thing is really cool is that you learned, she didn't have a lot of rules. She trusted you. So then you in return learned how to trust yourself. So if that is the model, then you would trust others. I do. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes to my own detriment,

even though your dad, I don't want to talk bad about your dad, but like, even though your dad left and there would be an easy story to tell yourself that you should not trust people. You know, Mike, I never really held that against him. It wasn't something that I had. How come? Any type? Well, I think for me, and this is a narrative, we all have a narrative that we tell ourselves about our childhood. And sometimes it's a really healthy one and sometimes not so much. But for me, I always told people and I always felt like my mom as a parent was as good or better than both than most, uh, father, mother combinations. So I never felt like I was at a deficit as it related to being parented. Wow.

That is really cool. Yeah, that is okay. Now, I don't know if that's actually true or not looking back on it, but I really believe that. So that model was essentially you would, you would look at your environmental conditions and you said they're great.

They're great. Now, the one exception was sports. And I always was envious of friends who had a come across this in all your dealings with athletics, I remember kids feeling like, hey, my dad's always on me. He's hard on me. He won't just be a dad. He's always trying to get me to be better or work harder in this sport. And I remember thinking, man, I wish that was me. I would love to have that.

So that was probably the one area where I felt like, man, there's something lacking. But again, for me, it was my coaches from a young age that filled that void. And they would coach you and challenge you in that way. You were probably really open to coaching if you had that want. I was. And I was also open to relationships. And as you know, coaching and relationships, so much go hand in hand, even when you're younger. But then particularly as you get to higher levels, it's so important to be able to have that bond. Are you a relationship based coach? Oh, very much so. And that's actually been one of the things that's been challenging as coaching has evolved. I've been a head coach for eight years and I was an assistant coach for 10 years. And I think our profession has really changed or is changing with the times and as everything evolves with social media and

the 24 hour a day news cycle and all the things that go with it. But yeah, I try to make the foundation of everything that I do and all the things that go with it. But yeah, I, I try to make the foundation of everything that, that I do and that, that our coaching staff does relationships. Okay. So relationship-based coaching, connecting and with the changes, do you mean the changes that the new kids, they're not kids anymore, 18, you're coaching 18, 19, 20 year olds, right? Yes. Yeah. So that age group that they're changing. They're changing. They're certainly different than you and I were when we were that age. And I don't even think it's so much that the kids are changing. It's that the environment around them has changed so much. The way that we communicate has changed so much. Social media

has really changed the game. You know, that phone that we carry around with us, in some cases, two phones, has made things so much different. Yeah, it really has. What have been some of the upsides, downsides that in the coaching profession that you've seen? Well, one of the... Just more for you than for them. Well, one of the things that changes, there's less face-to-face interaction or even less verbal interaction. So more of it is done, communication is done through texting or, you know, to a lesser extent, email or other forms of, you know, communicating over the phone, but not talking. And that's changed things a little bit

because, you know, still what we're trying to do is bring a group of guys together to come together around a common cause. And then the communication part of it, when you are together in a group is very, very important. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Okay. Brilliant. So where was home again? What geographic? I'm from the Madison, Wisconsin area. Okay. So. So where was home again? What geographic? I'm from the Madison, Wisconsin area. Okay. So that's where you were raised. That's where I was born. That's where I was raised. I spent the first 18 years of my life there. Okay. Youngest or oldest or where in the middle?

I'm second. Second. So right in the middle. Yep. And what did you learn from your brothers? Well, probably the biggest thing is just competitiveness. You know, my mom, I told you, did such a great job raising us. I feel like she almost raised each of us as individual single children in a group. I don't know if that really makes sense, but she really tried to spend a lot of

time focusing on each individual kid and his needs and his activities and what he had going on. Maybe even at the exclusion of the other brothers for that amount of time. And so my older brother is a writer. So there was a lot of emphasis put on that and focus on that with him. Did you say writing or writing? Writing. Okay. So mom got you, would work to get you is what it sounds like, right? She got you, she understood what you were most interested in, and then she would create as many opportunities for you to flourish. She did. Yeah. Okay. Which is that, that makes sense why you say that it was kind of like a mom and dad tango because mom really worked to get me. I felt understood.

I did. I'll give you an example, Mike. When I was in eighth grade, uh, and, and I'm, I'm a product of a biracial or interracial relationship. My dad is black and my mom's white. What do you identify with? Well, in this country, you know, and I'm a history major, so I've studied this quite a bit. But in this country, if you have a black parent, then you're identified that way. And that's the way that I've always identified. But the school that I went to when I was young was primarily white. So when I was in eighth grade, my mom got me set up with a club basketball team called AAU Now that was all black. And then I played on my school team. And on that school team, except for me, the whole team was white. So I had this unbelievable cultural experience where, and my mom

is the one that created this for me, where I was playing on two different teams. One was completely all white except for me. And then one was all black kids. And then all the differences that came along with that. What'd you learn? Learned a lot. I mean, first thing I learned is basketball is basketball. So, you know, the things that go into winning, the things that make it fun, the competitiveness, the camaraderie, those exist, obviously, across any type of lines. But then, again, as I mentioned, culturally, there was some major differences and it was pretty neat. I mean, literally I would go back and forth practice with one on a Monday and another on a Tuesday.

And how old were you? I was in eighth grade. So I was probably about 13. 13. And then would you be different around those two groups or would you try to be the same person across two groups? Like how would you manage that? Like what would you be like a chameleon or a I don't know what the other example would be. But, you know, Mike, that's an age where you're trying to figure out who you are. That's what I'm curious about. And so I think there was a lot of, for me, selforation and figuring out who I am and who I wanted to be.

Would I be different? Yeah, probably. I'm thinking about I was. I would go from a group of friends, like a surf community or whatever, whatever the community was. I remember at a time figuring, having this awareness, like I can fit in a lot of different groups, but I'm not sure who I am. Like I know how to fit in, but that, that doesn't really work at some age. That's that stopped. I don't know when that was, but that, that was no longer the goal to be part of it. The goal was to be authentic. I think that's good. Oh yeah, I think. I'm wondering if you had that at 13 or... I was just figuring it out. I love that. My wife says that all the time. She

goes, you know, we're all just trying to figure it out. No question. As soon as someone gets pissed or like, you know, we've got an eight-year-old son, Grayson, as soon as like, we have to remind ourselves all the time, he's just trying to figure it out. I love that phrase when you say that. I think we all are. And, you know, for me, the bottom line in that experience was the basketball. And then, but then there was these, these cultural components and, and as you said, identity, figuring out who you are. But, you know, one thing that was unmistakable and, and pretty set in stone for me by that point was how much I loved the game and how much I loved being around it. And so that was pretty easy.

Do you know, looking back, what you loved about the game? Was it the relationships that you were building? Could it have been fill-in-the-blank sport? Or was it unique to basketball? And if so, what was that? I'm just trying to get a sense of framework for you. I played a lot of different sports. Mostly stick and ball? Well, so, what was that? I'm just trying to get a sense of framework for you. I played a lot of different sports. Mostly stick and ball?

Well, yeah, and soccer. Soccer. Okay. And I actually was probably better at soccer. But for me, it was something about basketball where, and again, I think maybe some of it was the impact culturally and the heroes that you have that you look to in the game. But there was something about basketball that just drew you in and made you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself. And when you got caught up in that moment of team and camaraderie, and it didn't necessarily even have to be on the court. It could have been, you know, in the, in the van as you're driving to the game, or it could have been at a restaurant, but there was nothing like that. Okay. So we're talking about when you were

younger. And then I've got one question that I want to make a quick comment. Money was, what was money like for you guys uh not great we now we never went hungry uh but there was always this feeling of uh my mom was struggling to get to the next month uh and she would work a couple different jobs uh but she you could kind of feel the tension from, from her, uh, not, you know, she didn't intend it to be that way, but you, if you paid attention, which I really tried to pay close attention to her, you could sense it. But again, it was never something where, uh, we were in danger of not having our basic needs met. Okay.

So it was more like there was a, a, a low level stress about what next month was going to potentially be, but you never went without. So there wasn't like evidence like, oh, okay, so we might get kicked out again. No, not at all. And, but you know what there was, Mike, was there was often reminders that we didn't necessarily have the same thing that maybe other kids we were around had. And I'll never forget when I was 10 years old, my mom made my brother and I, my older brother and I, go on this exchange trip down to Mississippi. And we went down to Mississippi. It was an 18-hour bus ride.

And we stayed with this extremely poor family in the Mississippi Delta. It was in a government housing project. It was completely segregated. How old were you? I was 10 years old. And the family, the father was, he worked in a church. He was a preacher. And the mom was very loving.

She took care of the family. There was probably five children, a wide range of ages. And we stayed with them for two weeks. And the standard of living was extremely low. But at the same time, it was just unbelievably loving and happy family. And so my mom sent me down there and on the way back, it was an 18 hour bus ride coming back. There was this, I guess, as much as you can have at the age of 10, there was this, this epiphany of how fortunate I was at the time. And when I got off the bus and I saw my mom, she had this smirk on her face. Like she knew that that was going to occur, that epiphany was going to occur. So really after that, there was never much, uh, envy of anyone

that had more than us or anything like that. What's your mom's name? Her name's Monica. Phenomenal. Yeah. Smart as well. King. She goes by King and you go by smart yes dad so she went back to her maybe no she always kept it uh you know my mom's a product of uh you know the hippie generations generation yeah my mom was very very politically active um she's uh very strong beliefs so yeah she kept her own last name that That's what's up. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Because I was going to ask you about your relationship with money now and not necessarily

money, but like, well, let's just leave it open-ended and see where you take it. Like, how do you think about money now? It's interesting. I mean, you're in a profession where you're highly compensated. We are. And, you know, it's one of those things, it's, I guess, a reflection of our society, you know, the way that different professions are compensated. But, you know, as you know, athletics and certain sports obviously have become so unbelievably important. And then with the increasing involvement of TV and media, you know, everything's just spiraled upwards.

You know, for me, I've never tried to let it define me or change me. I remember my first coaching job. I was a graduate assistant at a division two school in Pennsylvania, and I made $90 every two weeks. And I was so happy. Every day I would go to Subway and I would order a $4 foot long and I would eat half of it for lunch and half of it for dinner. But nobody could tell me anything. I was so unbelievably happy. I lived in an apartment that was $150 a month for rent. You can imagine how not very nice that was. but it's never really something that's made me happy or I guess the opposite. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why

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you know to coach in that way and to have high standards. I'm making, I'm making a story up right now because, you know, like it's kind of easy to do that. So I want to ask about all of these things. What are your friends, the people that know you best, how do they describe you? Cause I just described you, you know, by the way that this conversation is beginning, but how do your friends describe you? They probably would say I'm very driven. They probably would say I don't have, you know, many things that I focus on beyond my job and the guys that I work with, both players and coaches, and then my family. I try to treat people the way that,

that was one of my mom's couple rules is, Oh yeah, let's, let's do that. You better treat people the right way. You better. Yeah. You better. That phrase is in there. Yes. And my mom's small, she's five, two, you know, not physically imposing, you know, she didn't practice a capital punishment or corporal punishment, but she, there was always a little bit of fear of getting on the wrong side of her on her couple rules. And that was one of them. The other rule was about school. Never bring home a bad grade. And that was pounded into us from a really, really early age. From a family legacy standpoint, are you going to carry those forward?

You know, I want to be more like my mom as a parent, but things are so different than they were when I was growing up. You know, for instance, I never had a curfew. There was never a time where I had to be back as long as I told my mom, hey, here's where I'm going to be. And this is, you know, are you thinking of high school? Yeah. Ever. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I had the same, I think I did. I'm pretty sure I had the same deal. Like there's a lot of trust from my mom to be able to make decisions and I made most of them pretty good, you know? And so I can't, I can't imagine, I can't imagine if I turn into a control freak, but I can't imagine like saying that to my son now, but. Well, I have a daughter, so it's like times 10. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I think the world has changed quite a bit and it's almost like

now you have to protect kids, not so much from themselves, but maybe from some of the things that are out there that could be of danger. Okay. All right. Brilliant. So Driven, how else do they describe you? What is this other thing that I'm to learn, you know, so I don't know if that if that's it, but I love to just figure different things out. And my desire to learn is not confined to one area. So sometimes I'll see something that has nothing to do with my job or anything that we're doing. But I just I want to learn about it. I want to figure out how that works. And I love learning about people because I think the more people that you can be around and learn about, the more it enriches, you know, your own perspective. So what, what is it that you are, what is it that you're studying? Is it like, are you studying people in front of you? Are you studying books? Are you studying movies? Are you studying movies? How do you study?

I probably should be more organized than that, Mike, because I would say all the above. I do a lot of reading. My wife, Maya, is a journalist by training, and she is a phenomenal reader. She reads literally, she goes through stretches where she reads a book every day. Come on, what? Now for me. Speed reading. She actually took classes in speed reading. This is really humbling, Mike, is we'll be sitting there on the couch reading the same magazine article.

And she'll be like, okay, are you ready to turn the page? She reads like 10 times faster than me. Yeah. Because I'm one of those people, when I read, I really like to take time to try to understand, well, what did he mean by that? Okay, I read what he just wrote, but then let me read it again and think about that. You know, I go back and forth. I'm like punching through pages, picking up maybe like on a regular kind of noted page. I don't know, maybe 25 of the important words and then just kind of holding onto them and getting to the next page and holding onto like 25 and just kind of stringing something

together at the end. That's for something I don't really care about. But when there's something that's like, I really want to understand the poetry and the stitching of ideas that that takes, there's no way that I know how to do that. And so it sounds like you and I vibe on that part as well, which is like the stitching of ideas is I think more important for me right now. This is what I'm paying a lot of attention to the stitching of the ideas as opposed to the idea itself. How did the ideas link? And then where did that come from, from the

person who is articulating the ideas? Well, and there's multiple layers of understanding underneath that. Keep going. So, you know, I mean, people talk about all the time when you read a book for a second time or a third time, you pick up new things that you didn't pick up the first time around. And, you know, maybe those were intended by the author or maybe they weren't. But I think so often because we're in a hurry in our culture to get to the next thing, we only understand the surface level and then we miss what's underneath that, that really, to your point, connects to whatever it is that we're trying to figure out or whatever challenge it is that we're trying to figure out or whatever challenge it is that we're trying to attack. When you're with a person in front of you,

how are you engaging with them? Are you listening to the storyline or are you listening below the storyline? I'm trying to listen right below the storyline, which drives my friends nuts because I forget a lot of the details. And so I'm curious because as a relationship-based coach that you clearly are, I want to know how you do the relationships, like how you engage with people. Well, it starts with listening, but then beyond that, paying attention because there's what someone says and then there's how they say it. And then there's what's underneath, like what's not said say it. And then there's what's underneath, like what's not said. Uh, and then again, when you're dealing with 18, 19, 20 year old guys who,

uh, are far from fully formed, uh, I don't know if you and I are even fully formed, but they're certainly not. Uh, then you really have to, I hope not. I hope there's, you have to pay attention to the look on the face. You know, one of the things that I'm a huge proponent of is trying, and this is hard, but trying to pay attention to someone's breathing. So I'm sitting across from you right now and, you know, I can't see air coming in and out of your nose or your mouth. But if you watch someone's chest rise and fall, and if you just pay attention to patterns, that gives you some insight into where someone is as well. Because different emotions and different moods lead to different types of breathing. And different frameworks.

So lead to different patterns of thinking. If my framework or a person's framework is you got to protect, you got to take care of yours. Like, you know, you always got to be on point. You got whatever, whatever. And there's a sense of anxiousness, then automatically we become chest breathers. And so not automatically over time, we become chest breathers, which is an indication of arousal, you know, being a little bit too high.

Right. And then so belly breathing, abdominal deep breathing is more anchored to a calmness, a sense of this moment is fine and I'm going to settle into it. And I don't talk about this much either. I love looking at that. It's, it's something you have to make yourself do. Uh, well, I guess some guys, some people have probably trained themselves to do it naturally, but you have to have awareness and presence in yourself in order to notice that in the next person. So are you doing breathing training? Do you have some sort of breath training that you've... Yeah. For myself? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. What does that look like? Again, I'm kind of all over the place because I haven't really found one that I'm like, you know, you listen to people that have been doing this for years and years and they've kind of settled into this is how I meditate or this is. But for me, you know, I have a couple of people that I really look up to that have taught me about this. And I just try to sit quietly and focus on my breathing. Sometimes I'll focus on different parts of my body, you know, feel your feet on the floor,

the way that your body feels against a chair or a bed or whatever it is that you're doing. But anything that brings you back into the moment and creates a level of mindfulness. And then what I really like throughout the day is things kind of snapping you back into that. Because the more you can be in that place, the more you can be yourself. There you go. Okay. And then, so is this a semi-regular practice or is this something that you do every day, but you're trying on a lot of different types? There's no right and wrong, but is this something that you're trying on a lot of different types, which is there's no right and

wrong, but like, is this something that you're practicing on a regular basis? Yes. Yeah. Is it a time commitment or feeling commitment that you're looking for? Well, you know, it's interesting. I'm not a morning person. Um, but people that I've talked to about mindfulness really, really encourage, Hey, right. When you get up in the morning, well, that's not really me, but, uh, I said, you know what, let me, these guys, they, they know they've been doing this a lot longer. Let me, let me give it a try. So, well, there's, there's some good science around willpower, good science. I'm going to say that there's some science around willpower and the idea that that comes from it is that willpower is a resource, right? So when you, when you have to

use willpower for something, it taxes our, your system. So if I, if like, if I walk by, let's just say right early in the morning, right out of the gates and there's a bucket of donuts and there's a bucket of fruit and I have to fight, I have to fight to not grab the donuts, right? So I'm using sort of some sort of internal volition or willpower to choose the fruit. There's a cost to my resources, my internal resources. So if I had to do that a lot throughout the day, this is why it drives me nuts actually when coaches have donuts in the hallway is because now we want our coaches to be vibrant and to be on it and to have so much, you know, internal fire that by the end of the day, there's still have fire left, not to be exhausted by 4 PM. Right.

The afternoon is shot. Right. And then great sleep or whatever, whatever to recover for the next day. And so every time somebody has to walk by donuts and they're being a good little whatever, and they say no to the donuts, there's a cost to that. That's interesting. Yeah. Because I've always looked at it the other way. Keep going. I've always believed that

as a person, you have a level of inertia that is impacted by your decisions and you actually can get yourself going by those little decisions, like turning down the donut. That's a really cool thought. I don't think I disagree with you at all. I think so if I hear that right, what you're saying is when I turn it down, it's like I get to say a second thing to myself like, that's right. I'm on this shit now. Let's go. Right. You get that second little. Yes. Well, and I think it goes hand in hand with your personality type. So I'm kind of extreme in my thinking. So if I'm going to have a cookie, I'm probably going to have six or eight cookies. So it's much, much better for me to have zero if I'm trying to eat healthy. In other words, you know, I'm going

to go to one extreme or another. So if I can turn down those donuts, then, you know, maybe I'm more likely to work out later in the day. I like it. Yeah, I see where you're going with it. OK, so some of the research I was talking about earlier is that the reason to start a new habit doesn't mean mindfulness, but it could be. Early in the day is because we have more available resources. Yeah, the resources are greater to be able to do the thing. You're not a morning person, that creates a problem. There's a challenge in that. And I've heard you talk about this before.

One of the challenges, if you're meditating or practicing mindfulness at a time where you're not maybe in the peak place, is that your mind can jump in and say, Hey, this isn't working. You're wasting your time. What are you doing? And so I guess you can look at that either way. You can look at it as a good thing and say, Hey, it's a great opportunity to practice here. And, uh, you know, notice those things. That is the moment of training. Yes. When, when you, when you're pulled away from the Zen of being right, whatever that's supposed to mean. And when you recognize when you're pulled away from the zen of being right whatever that's supposed to mean and when you recognize that you're down the train you're down this train of tracks right and that's when the work is when you bring it right back saying ah and you get you get a rep

at going well what do i want to do with my mind do i want to bring it back to the thing i started with yes or do i want to entertain this thought you know and so that's where the rep the the practice of refocusing comes in. So mindfulness and meditation is a focus training. The byproduct is you can get more relaxed, but the gold dust is the insight and wisdom that eventually you reveal from within. That's the gold dust. That's where it lies. But many people are really interested in the relaxation effect that takes place because what we're finding is i think the number is 18

breaths 18 deep breaths don't quote me on this but i think it's after 18 deep breaths and a deep breath lasts i don't know 10 12 seconds somewhere in that range is where we start to find that parasympathetic system to keep on which is a fancy phrase for the relaxation, um, you know, kind of experience that we feel, which is pretty cool. Right. So that, but that's an after effect. The refocusing is the real deal. And so do you have your athletes or coaches do some sort of work as well, or are you on a mission first to like, how are you? Some athletes. Uh, and you know, the interesting thing is there's been guys that,'ve worked with in the past and kind of gotten them going on meditation. Like you bring in somebody to the team or guys? with younger guys, with the age group that we coach, it's almost better if you do it yourself

with them as opposed to some stranger, just because they have a level of trust in you and it's not as weird. But then again, you better be able to take them through it and not make it seem weird. But anyway, there's a few guys that I did meditation with on a somewhat regular basis at VCU, which is my former school. And now those guys have moved on and they're either playing professional basketball or they're doing other things career-wise. And they text me and they say, hey, I meditated this morning. It was great. Thanks for getting me into that. So sometimes it's a delayed effect of,

of getting someone to understand how positive it can be. Yeah. Cool. And then when you would do it with the guys and I'm, when we say guys, we're talking about athletes. Yes. Athletes. And, and we've typically done it with individuals, uh, like one-on-one or one-on-two. Yeah. It's, it's, I've done it in my office with, with a couple of guys at once, but usually no more than that. Uh, it's not like, it's not like you're sitting down with, you know, all 11 or 12 guys and it's not like that. Yeah. And then what, do you ever want to do that or do you like how you're doing it or do you have a different vision? I would love to do that. I would love to explore it more. I just don't feel like I'm far enough along myself in understanding it. But I definitely, I'd love to someday bring someone in that, again, with the segment of guys that we work with, you have to create a level of trust first. So you can't just bring some guy in off the street and say, hey, he's going to how to meditate that's good if you're not practicing it why should they exactly right if you're not finding

value in whatever whatever whatever why should they well that's a huge part with everything that we do is uh you know whether it's core values or your beliefs as a program or whatever it is that you're trying to instill into your guys, you better have a willingness to exhibit those values or those traits yourself. There's mom in there. Did you hear that? You better. Right? Yeah. You better be. If you're going to talk about high character, you better have high character. Yeah.

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So you started young. Yes. I was really fortunate. I was 31 when I, when I got a head coaching job and it just, I was in the right place at the right time and had an athletic director who really believed in me. When did you notice, if ever, that you thought differently than a lot of your peers? Because there's not many head coaches at 31. I don't know if there's many at 40. That's what I was trying to sort out. No, there's, I mean, I'm still relatively young, but there's, I would say, I don't know, 10% of division one coaches are, you know, in their thirties or maybe right around 40.

Okay. But one of the things you learn when you're an assistant coach is there's so many different ways to go about this, this thing that we call coaching and coaching is such a broad, generic term. I mean, what you do is coaching. Um, but what you do is very different than, you know, what, you know, some guy at the YMCA teaching layups does. So, um, when did I learn that maybe I looked at things a little bit differently? Uh, I'm fortunate. I worked for a lot of different head coaches that, um, took me under their wing and taught me the way that they do things. And then I just tried to

combine them all along with what I learned from my most important coach, my mom. And that kind of created my style. How do you define your style? And then I want to get to a coaching philosophy as well. Well, my style is just to coach these guys through relationships and try to create big E epiphanies. I think guys at that age group have a lot of small E epiphanies, but those are fleeting. And then what happens is they kind of come right back to where they were, which if you think back to when you and I were that age, we were the same way,

you know, maybe still are in some ways. But I think through the relationship, if you can create trust and if you can create a shared experience where the two of you or more are trying to move someone forward, uh, the student athlete in this case to, and this is kind of an overused phrase, but to help them become the best version of themselves. Um, that's what I really get a kick out of, you know, in this coaching thing. Now, what we're judged on is winning and losing, which is not necessarily the same. I do believe over the long haul, if you can help guys become the best version of themselves, winning will take care of itself, but not necessarily in the short term. We just went through a really, really challenging season this past year at Texas. Yeah. Less than 50% wins? Yes. Yeah. Which, you know, for us as a coaching staff, our staff's changed some over the years, but we're fortunate.

I mean, every year before that, we won 20 plus games and, you know, we're fortunate to go to the NCAA tournament several years in a row and have a lot of success. So, you know, it was a really challenging season, but in a lot of ways, from a learning standpoint, a very, very helpful one. And one, I think that we're going to be able to draw on and, and take a lot of experiences from. Okay. Jeez. I want to ask you what coaching means. I want to get to your philosophy. I also want to ask you, I won't forget these things. This is me like doing my mental checklist. I also want to ask you. You're good at this. You're good at throwing out like seven different questions and then being able to remember them. I would never be able to do that because once we kind of start getting into the first, I would forget. Which one? Yeah. Yeah. Well, because it can spider in so many

different ways. But, um, and then I also want to ask you about, you know, what is a big E, a big epiphany, and then how you set people up to have those if you have some sort of structure to that. And like, again, you might say, I don't know, but when that happens, I know it, you know, but I don't know how to reverse engineer it. So let's start with what does it mean to be a coach and then get to the other two? Wow. I mean, that's really the, the number one, at least outside of family identity that, um, that I've tried to take on, but at the same time having this awareness or alertness that, you know, we are not, you know, whatever it is that we identify with. Oh, say that. Yeah. So that say that again. That's so good.

That's a real tension. Is it for you? For me, yes, it is. So in other words, you're not a coach. No, no, but it's what I do, and it's something that I care about so very much, and it keeps me up at night, and I put the vast majority of my time into it.

But I think it's important for all of us to know that there's this being, this essence inside of us that is separate from that. Yeah. And I think that what I just said, you and I are vibing because we're looking at each other. And what I said, like, if you just did a transcription was not right. You're not a coach is what I said. That's not accurate. You do coach. I think the accurate thing that we're both vibing on, tell me if I'm off, is that you're not defined

just by coaching and what you do is not who you are. Are we saying the same thing? Yeah. And then, okay, then how do you understand the human experience? Okay. So you've dedicated so much time, so much effort to refine this craft, to build incredible relationships, to help people have a big E, big epiphanies, so that they can transform and become the best version of themselves, which I love the phrase. I'll tell you about why I love it so much in a moment. And by the way, that's grounded in science. There's a whole field of psychology about that. And then you're doing that with the eventual hope that people are going to have success in their life from a win-loss perspective that is going to be favorable to

them. And it doesn't mean, I'm not suggesting that you're saying, no, I, you know, there's a lot to learn from losses. You just said that, right? A few moments ago, but this whole arc, I think that, that I just described for you as, as a man, I'd love to know how you are understanding the human experience. Well, I think it's, it's a decision that we make every day and what gets in the way often is this powerful tool that we all have that we call our minds. Um, so we wake up in the morning and you know, whatever it is that we all have that we call our minds. So we wake up in the morning and, you know, whatever it is that we have on our minds or that we want to go do, you know, we have the opportunity to go after those things. But if you don't have a level of presence to whatever it is that you're

doing, then to me, that human experience is going to be off. It's going to be flawed. And at least the way that I've lived my life, you're not going to have much fun that way because we haven't used that word much in this conversation, but it is a big part of what it is we're all trying to do. I mean, this conversation is fun. Playing basketball is fun. Coaching is fun. The work you do with the Seahawks, that's got to be unbelievably fun. And you talked about the guys that we coach. Really, more than anything, if I get a call from

one of them in 20 years and they say, I'm just having this unbelievable experience and I'm having so much fun. And thank you for the things that you helped me understand when I was younger. That's really what it's all about. It's amazing how far that goes for, you know, people that are relationship based. It's unbelievable. Yes. Yeah, I know. Okay. Okay. So that's about the human experience. You said it starts with a decision and the decision is something, I'm not sure what, but then it gets to your level of presence. Let's call it level, if you will, because you can be scatterbrained and you can be fully present, right? And you're trying to be fully present with people because when you're fully present,

that that's where there's some joy and fun that emanates from that. Okay. Does that sound right? It does. And then it's, it's a little bit, I don't know, it almost goes against this somewhat personal or individual decision and practice to be present. But to me, the next step in the human experience is now all the exchanges and interactions and relationships that you have with everyone else. This conversation wouldn't be much fun if it was just one of us. It was just one of us. Yeah, right. The monologue we have with ourselves. And so, you know, whether it's coaching or whether it's teaching or, you know, community outreach or whatever it is that you do, that human experience is defined by the way that you are able to make other people feel and the way that they make you feel. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. The whole idea of helping others become their very best is, I think, needs a second sentence.

So that they can do the same for others. Right. Right. So going on this journey to become the best version of yourself seems like really important so that you can do the same for others. And therein lies this concept. I love this thought, you know, this rising tide, you know, rising tide floats all boats that if we get, if we get ourselves right, then we can help others get themselves right. And then it doesn't mean that they want to. What is, when you say the fundamental decision, I think I added the word fundamental a sports psychologist that I worked with and met when I was at the University of Florida. He wrote a book called The Psychology of Champions.

His name is Dr. James Burrell. And he always tells me that this practice of mindfulness and awareness and alertness, it doesn't do very well as your second or third or fourth most important thing. You've got to make it the thing. And then everything kind of goes from there. So I think that's part of the decision. And then during your day, whatever it is that you're doing, you have to re-decide because your mind can take you on a trip over there. And now you've been pulled out of the moment and you've lost the ability to be present. So now you have to come back. So let's imagine, I'm going to get to those other two

variables in a minute that we talked about, but let's imagine on a scale of one to 10, that a seven, eight, nine, 10 on this one to 10 scale is like, you have too much activation, too much energy for this moment, this conversation we're having. And then a one, two, three is you're, you're just like way too casual and lackadaisical and there's not enough stimulation. Right. And then there's a sweet spot four, five and six in the middle. Okay. So where, and that's when you're at your personal best and you're matching the intensity of the environment so that you are, have alignment internally and externally. Okay. Where are you right now?

This is me trying to get a sense of what it's like to be you in this conversation. I'm usually on the high end. Okay. Seven, eight, nine, 10 or on the six, seven. I'm up there. I mean, too much activation. If it's something where I'm switched on, then I'm usually eight, nine, somewhere up there. And then if it's something where I'm not, then I may be lower. Where are you right now in this conversation? What is this Coach Smart? I'm enjoying this, Mike.

Is this a five? This is good, yeah. So this is what it feels like when you're at your best? I think for me, unfortunately, that in between is probably slimmer. Yeah, the frequency of time you spend in a 4, 5, 6. No. No. Oh, it's more thinly sliced.

Yes. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's harder. It's easier to miss that window. Yes. Right. Yeah.

You'll spend more time. It's easier to do a 7, 8, nine, 10 and a one, two, three. But again, it being a five, uh, I hate to keep coming back to this, but it's about being alert in the moment. A thousand percent. Let's add some texture to that. Let's say you're alert and aware and you're aware of the danger in this moment. Then that pulls us up to a seven, eight, nine, 10. Okay. So just awareness alone isn't enough in my mind, awareness of the experience perspective and wisdom and insight. Those all matter for context. And then there's a third skill, which is the ability. Once you are aware that you're at an eight on the scale, that you're too

hot, if you will, to bring yourself down. That's a skill, right? That's like what we're going back to breathing and whatever, whatever. So there's mental skills, there's awareness, there's as a, as an afterglow of mindfulness. So do you teach your guys about mental skills as well? Like to recognize where they are on these types of scales we just talked about, and then the tools to bring themselves to more optimized states. We don't in those particular terms, but we do in our own, our own. Yeah. How do you get it across? Uh, you know, a lot of what you do in coaching is stolen. So totally, totally. Wait, before you tell me, I want, you won't forget, right? Okay. Did you like the framework we just talked about or did it sound like, nah, that doesn't sound anything real? No, I liked it. And it actually, as you were talking, I could kind of feel myself on that scale. And the reason I was asking is because your presence and your ability to articulate is clear.

And so that's, I'm trying to just suss out, like, is this a good version of coach smart? Or is this like, actually, Mike, I'm at an eight. I'm overthinking stuff, which is totally normal. Well, I would say for me, I typically err on the side of just this higher intensity or energy. And sometimes there's a need to just, hey, calm down a little bit. We're okay. Come on back now. But like I said, I would much rather be there.

To me, the one thing that we can't really do much with is apathy. What do you do with that? Too cool for school does not work. Yeah. It does not work. Yeah. That could be hypothyroidism. It could be chronic depression. It could be self-esteem saving. And it could be you're just flat out in the wrong industry, the wrong kind of a context. Most often it's probably not for athletics, right? we got to rule these things out in our mind hypothyroidism looks like sluggish you know right heroin also looks like hypothyroidism so it could be drugs it could be depression we got to take a look at that but most times it's like a self-esteem saving mechanism defense mechanism yeah because if i really try

hard and i really get after it and i come up short again and again and again. Now I don't have a model to deal with again. Yeah. Well, the whole concept in our game of basketball of what's cool is really, really interesting. Do you talk about that? We do. Yeah, we talk about that because, I mean, let's be honest, the guys in our sport that everyone looks at and looks to are the best of the best at the pro level. And I don't know if you ever watch what these guys wear to the game or what they wear to a press conference or certainly commercials or things they do on TV.

But they really come across as cool and cutting edge. For sure. And they have this way about them. It's like, hey, I want to be like that guy. But that doesn't necessarily jive or equate with who they are on the court. And I try to get our guys to understand these guys are killers. You need to understand what you're dealing with right now is they will cut your throat for a basket or for a rebound or for the ball. And that's the same guy that just came in here in this ridiculous outfit, uh, to come across in a certain way. Uh, so that's something that we do talk about. Killer. Is that

what you say? Assassin? Or did I have that in my head? Did you say assassin? You can use either. Yeah. So I think about that frame as assassins and I like that image, right? And so it's scary. It's overwhelming when you really get to the brutality of being an assassin or killer. And that cutthroat aggressiveness is something that I think we have to pay attention to. And those alphas, there's a lot of that in there that we don't recognize the destruction internally. And afterwards that, that, that, that takes place for people. So if you coach up, man, we're getting so deep into the weeds, but I love this. I won't forget the other stuff, but when we, do you coach up being an assassin? Cause there's like a, you've got this Zen quality relationship, love about you, right? Growth arc. And then the other part, like, no, I want you to be an assassin and a killer. And I was part of a club not too long ago that they had a special group of people called the assassins. You know, and there was a, there was some, a lot of pride by that. So I'd love to see how you work out that

tension between those two ideas that you have about relationship-based and being a killer. Well, it depends on who you're working with. I think for anybody having some sort of image, and usually a visual image, it can be very, very powerful. We have one player who I kind of gave him these different images to look at and choose, and he picked a lion. So we have this picture of a lion, and the lion has got blood all over its face and its mane, and obviously just gotten done hunting. And so just kind of as a play on words, I said to him, I said, okay, you're either a lion or you're lying. There you go.

And so I try to kind of loop back to maybe the agreements that we have as part of our relationship, but also get them to understand sometimes it is as simple as this image right here. Okay, this lion's got to go eat. Yeah. You got to go eat right now. And so depending on the guy, you know, that may or may not work. Other people might need something a little less, you know, brutal or, you know. Some guys align with being a savage and some guys don't.

Right. Like, so this is your mom at play again. Yes. The four brothers and her modeling how to understand equally in, uh, the uniqueness of each one of you. Well, and that's something as a coach, you have to learn over time as you spend time with your guys. I'll never forget, we went to the Final Four in 2011 at VCU, and our best player was a young man by the name of Jamie Skeen, and he was really laid back. He was not a guy that was a rah-rah guy, didn't talk very much. So I'll never forget, before one of our games during that run, we showed this video of different animals hunting in the wild.

And then at the end, it was a very gruesome ending of the video. And so the guys on their way out to the court were fired up and all the guys were really into it. And Jamie was the last one. He grabbed me. He said, Coach, we just want to win. We don't have to kill him. So that was, that was him. You know, he was different than this guy who we used the lion with. Now he ended up having a phenomenal career. He was the most outstanding player of that whole regional. So you have to find different ways to connect. I love it. And you know, the thought just entered

my mind is that maybe one of the reasons he had a phenomenal game or series is because he had the courage to be authentic, to say that doesn't vibe for me. So not having that courage, right? So having, so him pulling you aside is a demonstration of authenticity and courage and being bold and whatever, which is exactly what you want them to do anyway. Well, that's where the relationship comes in. I love that. Yeah. Cool. If you don them to do anyway. Well, that's where the relationship comes in. I love that. Yeah, cool. If you don't have that, and there's an old saying in coaching is guys don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

And it's so unbelievably true with this. I hate to sound like an old guy, but with this new generation of guys, you better take the time to spend to get to know, you know, what's inside of them and what makes them tick and to be able to articulate to them what matters to you and to help them do the same back. And in this case, this same young man we're talking about, he would not have been able to do that the year before because we didn't have as good a relationship. Sometimes there's some, you know, for good fortune that comes into play that helps your relationship. And we, we were able to develop it that next year. And it was, it was really powerful. How do you go about getting to know your people, coaches and athletes?

Very profound, uh, way of doing that, Mike. Spending time. That resource. Yeah, right. It's, you know, there's no real substitute for that. You know, just being around guys. And what I found is the more different ways you can slice it, you know, the more different ways that you can be around these guys and different settings you can see them in. It's really, really powerful. I'll give you an example. The other day, there were some guys on our team that were over at my house. And my daughter is five, so she's really into board games, you know, different games. We have probably 20 different games at our house. So we pulled out some of those games and we started playing those games with my daughter and then some of the guys on our team. And it was

really, they're competitive, you know, they want to win, but it's just a silly kid's game. But it's interesting seeing them in a different setting. And now they let their guard down a little bit and they're playing this little silly game and they get competitive. And then afterward they're talking trash about it. So to me, you know, building that relationship, finding different avenues or different ways to, to, to see these guys and let them let their guard down and be who they are. Yeah. Okay. And then when, how often do you open up your house? Is that rare or is that? Guys can come over whenever they want. I mean, it's not really, uh, it's not really a defined amount of time. We'll have team gatherings where, where the whole team will come by, but

sometimes it's better when it's just a couple guys or a few guys. Um, like I said, with, with my daughter being the age that she is, I, I like sometimes for them to come over and interact with her. You know, you, how much recruiting do you do? Oh, quite a bit. Yeah. You must, you must be dangerous in a living room because you have this ability and it's, I'm not saying it's like there's any shell game, but like to really care about people comes across in the way that you structure your thoughts. And so you must be dangerous. Like moms and dads in a living room will say, whatever it level that we're at, at the University of Texas, a lot of the guys that we recruit have the opportunity to go on to the professional level and do phenomenal things and make a great deal of money.

And that's something that for all of us needs to be taken very, very seriously. So I think quite a bit of recruiting has become, hey, what can you do as a coach? What can your program do to help me get to that point? Which I completely understand if I had a son or a daughter who was in that position, I probably would be thinking the same thing. What I try to get kids and families to understand is you're going to need to grow and develop as a whole person in order to be the best you possibly can be at that level as well. Sometimes what we like to do in this culture, in this society, is we like to chop people up. And so it's a form of

compartmentalizing, I guess. Hey, here's the basketball you, and then here's, you know, there's the academic part of you, and, you know, maybe you over here socially. But all those things are very, very closely related to one another. And particularly for those of us that care so deeply about the sport that we play or we coach, we better make sure that we are in a good place mentally and that we are fully supported. Because if one area of our life is not quite where it needs to be, it can certainly impact the other. Well said. Really well said. Okay. Coaching philosophy. That was the kind of second thing I wanted to take with you. Do you have a philosophy that you could say in a sentence or two or a word? Yeah. We've talked about it. It's mostly through relationships, building trust to help our guys become the best version of themselves. I think really when you're teaching young guys or they come in, there's three main areas that- I want to get to these three things, but like, okay. So coach Carol, coach Pete Carroll, Seattle Seahawks, we built this company with one mission

to help people become the best versions of themselves. Okay. Right. Like, so you're saying this, I'm like, come on, like that's unbelievable. And then the other thing, like you said, with the relationships. I wonder if we both stole that from the same person. We just might have. And so, um, and then the other part is the, an axiom that I've lived so much of my life by is that through relationships we become. And so you started

off your philosophy about relationships, then the trust, then the helping others become. And, um, so I just, I, I, I couldn't listen anymore. So I'm sorry to interrupt because I want to get to the three things, but that synergy like feels really at home and I love it now. Okay. Before you get to the three things, there's a tension that I have that I'd love to see if you have any of this tension is that the difference between being and becoming. So we've talked a lot about being present and then the art of becoming and the skill of becoming they they're thinly sliced but the nature of both of those can feel very different to me right and so i don't know if you do you ever think about that or is that a all the time and

it's a real tension it really is isn't it so how do you manage Well, or think about it even. Being is something that you can, you're going to do one way or the other. It's just how aware you are of it. Now, the becoming part is something that it's always out there. Okay. So that's the tension, right? Is that why is it not now? Why do I need something more to be all of me? Something more in the future? You already are all of you. That's the tension, right? Is that why is it not now? Why do I need something more to be all of me? Something more in the future?

You already are all of you. That's right. But you have to uncover what goes into that. And you have to find the different parts of yourself that maybe you weren't as familiar with before. Yeah. And then it's through the relationship with sport and or academics. Now I'm going to bring back this other idea that you just had. It's through the relationship we have with ourselves, with those activities that we learn about who we really are.

Yes. I mean, it's through the relationship on a podcast is that like the thing isn't that important. And people go, how could you say that? How could you say blasphemy that you're saying basketball is not important or whatever it is? I'm not saying that I'm saying what's most important is the, the process of figuring out who you authentically are. Can you express that in as rugged environments as you can? And then can you do that connected with other people? Because it wasn't that long ago, we didn't have basketball. Before Dr. Naismith, we didn't have basketball. What was it?

1840, what was it? I can't remember, but whatever it was. We didn't have basketball 500 years ago. So it can't be that important, can it? It would be something else. It would be something else. It would be something else. It would be doing something else. So then primary mover is it's the relationship with something that reveals who we really are. And sometimes I'm cowardice and sometimes I'm strong and sometimes and awareness to front load and do the heavy lifting now so that when I get tested later, I can be more authentically myself and express.

So let me ask you this. At the end of your podcast, you ask people, are you this or are you this? And so do you feel like that's a choice or do you feel like that's just kind of a disposition that you're born with? Yeah, some. I think that there's. So that's a cool question there. Those forced choices are really meant for a response to understand more. when you listen to to some of your guests have a really hard time they're like i'm don't dare box me and i'm not picking one of the two because like you said i mean sometimes you're this sometimes you're that yeah yeah that's right and then there is you know this is not profound in any way there's a genetic wiring that we all have and there are environmental conditions and then it's the soup between those two that other, that people along the path and experiences along the path influence our, our expression, you know, our

potential or our constriction of potential. And so it's that classic interactionist model, you know, but then, so those questions, I'm going to ask you all those questions, I hope, but those questions are meant to like, okay, so it doesn't have to be A or B. It could be right in the middle, but how, if there was an extreme that you had to lean on one side or the other, which one do you have a tendency to toward? And I don't think there's any right and wrong in any of them. You know, like, it's not like, are you a murderer or are you an angel? It's like, are you optimistic or pessimistic? Do you worry about the future or do you think the future is amazing? Going to be amazing. And I don't know many pessimists on the world stage.

And that might just be because I don't enjoy it. So I'm trying to sort out if that's just my bias or it's the groups that I'm naturally attracted to. Let me ask you a question about that because we've had a discussion on our coaching staff about this. Is it possible for someone to be naturally pessimistic but really learn to be highly optimistic and go through whatever exercises you do during the day and whatever, hurdles you have to clear to be an optimist. Oh yeah. So optimism and pessimism, they're the lenses that we view the future through and we're not born with one or the other or as research would explain. So we learn optimism and we learn pessimism from our early experiences and then reinforced in adolescence. And then, so if I met you now and you said, listen, something amazing is about to take place in the future. I just don't know

what, what exactly it is. Something good's about to happen. Something good's about to happen. See, there you go. Then, then if that's the case, then you're not, you've become an optimist. If you are a pessimist, there's probably a really good reason why you are right. Mom, dad burned you in some kind of way. Relationship, you've been burned. You've been let down, this, that, and the other. There's a real reason why you would see that the future is not safe and not bright. So undoing that could be very dangerous for somebody, right?

Because that's been a protection model for 20, 30, 40 years. Now, I think that it is a worthwhile course to go on to take a look at that. And it doesn't mean that naivete is part of optimism. You can be a naive optimist. You can also be a naive pessimist. So naive optimism actually gets – it's the thing that keeps people in battered relationships in the battered relationship. Oh, one day he'll change. Oh, one day she'll change.

Right. That's totally naive to change. Like it's hard. It takes real work to change. So the night it never would anyone suggest naive optimism is a good strategy, but it's the clumping of that. That seems like if you're a pessimist or whatever you want to say oh they're soft come on deal with reality so then that's what pessimists tend to say is that

no no they say you guys are not based in reality what are you talking about you know i'm a realist i'm a realist that's decode for i'm a pessimist right you can be a real optimist you can be a real pessimist too right it's like it's this tint that how we see the future that's all it is you know so yes you can train it uh Martin Seligman's got some great resources on how to train optimism and and whatever and um just it's a nothing more complicated than a relentless focus to find what could be good as opposed to what could go wrong. And it just fundamentally orientates our thinking and parts of our brain as well. So long answer. Sorry.

So, all right. Coaching philosophy, you nailed it. And then talk about the three things underneath the coaching philosophy. I would love to know those. There's just, I would say, three umbrellas that we focus on with our guys. The first one being relationships, and we've talked quite a bit about that. But basketball is a unique game in that, again, at the highest level, it's really marketed by the individual. The individual stars are what drives the game

and what drives the selling of the game and TV and media and everything that goes along with that. But still, and you see this time of year in the playoffs, it's the best teams. It's the best combinations of guys that come together that are able to win. And there's this feeling that winning at the highest level, winning a world championship is more important than anything. And so in our sport, at our level, you have obviously guys coming to college with really, really big aspirations, individual aspirations of where they want to go next. Our sport's unique, Mike, compared to every other sport at the collegiate level, or almost every other sport, in that really the best players are only there for one year. And there's not a lot of them, but that's what a great deal of guys aspire to be. And so what we have to do is try to create relationships and create an understanding that you're going to be who you're going to be through the relationships you have with these other people, players, coaches, anyone that's part of the program. The other part of the relationship piece is understanding, coming back to having fun and

having a great experience is that that's really hard to do if you're caught up in yourself, if you're all about, you know, just what you're doing. So the second umbrella would be growth and just understanding what goes into that. Because again, for the best players, we're going to have them for a very short amount of time. And then even for guys we have for four years, that window also is relatively short compared to the rest of your life. So how can we create explosive growth in these guys' lives as whole people and as basketball players during that short amount of time. Is there one thing that you do to accelerate that growth that you could point to?

A practice that you love? We do a lot, but I would say the most important component of accelerating growth is changing someone's relationship with feedback oh yeah that's good that's really good okay because without feedback it's near impossible to know if you get better and like this is why i was so attracted early on in my life to mother nature the feedback was like it was accurate accurate. You got problems. Right. And so for, and that's like back country stuff. But then when a human gives feedback to another human, there's all these biases that we've got to cut through. Yes. And we're trying to interpret like, does he have my back or is he

just looking out for himself? Is he in a bad mood? Is he in a good mood? Like, is this, is this accurate? Does he know what he's talking about? Should I listen? Should I not listen? I never heard this before and look like I'm pretty damn good. Like there's all these biases and filters to get through. So I love this. How do you do this? Well, to your point, that's where it relates very, very strongly to the relationship part of it. But yeah, well, the key is, is trying to create an understanding on the part of whether it's an athlete or a coach or anyone that you're working with that it is going to be impossible for you to become fill in the blank, the best version of yourself without a very, very healthy and close relationship with feedback. Now, it's tough because, again, with the segment of guys that we're dealing with, for the first 18 or so years in their life, as it relates to basketball, I'm not talking about the family structure, but basketball, they've largely been given only positive feedback. And here's one of the things I think is a real challenge that we have to overcome in team sports in today's era is getting people to understand there's a real difference between objective feedback, constructive feedback and negativity. Sometimes those things are confused for being one and the same.

And let's be honest, most people, when they get hit with a certain level of negativity, they turn off. And so getting them to understand, wait a minute, this feedback is far from negative. In fact, this is actually something that you already have inside of you. You just have to bring it out. Can you give me an example? I I've got an example in my head. Maybe do you want me to take a stab at it and say, see if I got it right. Let's hear yours. Okay. So here's a negative comment, a negative coaching comment, right? Just that with an eye roll or something. Right. Um, and any, anything that follows that, right? Like again, like, are you really going to do this again? There's, there's nothing

constructive about that as opposed to say someone makes a technical mistake or that pass wrong or whatever they're going to do. And you say, Oh, wait a minute now. Okay. Why did you make that pass? So question-based stuff, right? And so like that, I, what, what's going on for you to, that you saw that that was the right direction or, you know, hold on, let's slow down, walk me through what you were doing. Like that sort of feedback loop. It's not positive or negative. It's more curious and helping people learn. So that's kind of how I do it more often, which sometimes takes a little bit longer.

It does. Right. And then the challenge, I would guess, you tell me, is a lot of times athletes, once you stop it and ask that question, they want to get past that. Totally get past it. Yeah. And then they got all their boys looking at them as well you know so it can feel like the spotlight's on which i think as coaches we need to understand the toggle how to use the toggle of stress because if you flood somebody too quickly with stress there's a shutdown which is a self-esteem mechanism if there's not enough stress

there's not enough vibrance to get to the good stuff but so we have to understand how to toggle stress for somebody and you can't put too much on them because then literally our brain shuts down. Well, and it's very dependent upon the personality type of who you're dealing with. We had a phenomenal freshman this past season named Jared Allen. And he had this great way about him where he just looked at feedback as data.

He really, really didn't take it personally. And from maybe an outside observer, they may look in and say, you know, is he just apathetic or does he not care as much? But he cared. He wasn't. He cared very, very much. He just wasn't going to let it define him in terms of what he was about or who he was as a person. And because he had this joy for learning, it was just so, I wish every kid had that. I mean, he just got a kick very, very fast. And that's something that I wish more guys had just a natural inclination that way. Can you give a example of constructive feedback that's not negative and one that has a negative tone to it? Well, I'll give you a real simple one. Negative is tearing someone down and say, you suck or you're no good or how could you make that play? You know, one of the things that, uh, unfortunately coaches do way

too much is, you know, they, they make players, uh, seem, feel like they're two feet tall based on a play that they made. When in reality, most of us, I played division three basketball. Most of us played at a much lower level than the guys that were coaching. So I think it's important to help guys understand you're better than that play, that last play. And if it can become you and the athlete against that last play, that wasn't where either of us feel like it should have been and just getting getting the right way to explain to them you're better than that you can go harder than that you can make a better read than that you have that in you you just got to do it there you go so therein lies your framework for building a relationship it's you and me together trying to sort out what's what's the best version of you.

That's exactly how it plays out for your coaching, it sounds like. If you can get the athlete to look at it that way, and I learned that from a coach that you're really familiar with by the name of Anson Dorrance, who's won 100 million national championships in women's soccer at North Carolina. But he has something that he calls a competitive cauldron, which is all these different numbers that they do in practice where they're competing against each other, which basketball is a little bit different. But his point is that he's able to sit down with his athletes and put the numbers on paper and then say,

hey, it's me and you together looking at those numbers and how can we make them better. And so I've tried to take that from him and even carry it another step further. Let's do that with tape. Let's do that with video. You know, let's do that with advanced statistic. Let's do that with everything that we're doing so that the understanding is that whatever it was last night in the game was. And now how can we work together? Because we're going to be in that situation again to make it better. This is one of the things in corporate life or business life that people don't get enough of. I don't get enough of when I'm doing those types of events and engagements where if you've been on the phone all day or you've been doing sales calls or you've been in front of a computer doing data analysis, how do you know if you're doing a good job?

Feedback. Yeah. And so we don't get enough of it. Most people, most people don't get enough feedback. And so I love where you're going with this. It's there though, Mike. I mean, it's all around us if we'll really, really pay attention. It's there in conversations, you know?

That is for sure. I think sometimes we're, we have an aversion to knowing what the true feedback is. And that's why I love the book Mindset. Written by someone that really didn't know much about sport, but it's so important in what we's, it's so important in what we do. Feedback loop is really cool. Okay. Biggies epiphanies. So how do you think about structuring or like, what is a big epiphany? And then how do you think it's an aha moment is around the same. Is that what it is? Like a light bulb goes off. Okay. So how do you, how do you structure your relationship or the environment to help people become more connected to big E's? It's tricky because first of all, you can't plan

them out. Okay. Next Tuesday, you're going to have a big E epiphany. It doesn't work that way. Particularly again, if you take yourself back to that age of being 18, 19 years old, they have the small E epiphanies all the time, but then there's a loop where they sometimes come back to whatever it is that maybe keeps them limited from being the best version of themselves. And so the big E is, you said it earlier, it's a fundamental change, which is hard. It's hard for any of us at any age. And so I worked for Billy Donovan, who's a coach at Oklahoma City Thunder. And when I was with him, he was at University of Florida. He would always say, you have to put someone's back against the wall in order to create change. And he was talking specifically about the age group that we're

dealing with. And so he had really unique ways of doing that. I think every coach has their own way. You know, I think for me, it's first, if you have that relationship and you can create the trust, then getting them to understand truly there is no other way. There's no other way. Well, but I can, no, but if I go this, no, there's no other way. And then it's going to take obviously multiple conversations and multiple trial and error and multiple setbacks. Uh, and then finally running into a wall enough times and understanding, okay, this is what I got to do. And what is that thing that they have to do? Is it, are we talking about like deep focus? So we're talking about.

Could be anything. Uh, I'll give you one. Are you familiar with Jack Clark? Oh yeah. Rugby. Could be anything. I'll give you one. Are you familiar with Jack Clark? Oh, yeah. Rugby. Yes. Legend at Berkeley. Unbelievable coach. What's up, Jack? I've stolen a lot of ideas from him.

I think you've probably learned already through this conversation. I steal a lot of stuff from different coaches. Well, so we have a word in our program called response. And our definition of response is his definition of mental toughness. And that is your ability to focus on the next most important thing, which is, I mean, you're an expert in that. You're an expert in teaching that. When a guy learns that if he does not have the right response, he cannot be the best version of himself throughout the course of a 40-minute game or a four-month season or whatever it may be, then finally there could be a big E epiphany in understanding, okay, I control my response. It's not easy. But if I bring the right response, then I'm going to be able to focus all of my energy on the next most important thing. Love it.

And that circle all the way back to the beginnings when we're talking about mindfulness, that is in the most pure way, the process of mindfulness training, which is being fully present and connected to the most element. The most important thing could be a breath, could be a sound, could be a mantra, could be flickering light, whatever. In such a relentlessly tiring, focused, wonderful way that you get to reveal insight and wisdom. And then without it, we get ourselves into trouble. And I don't want to get out of order, but that's mastery to me. I know that's your big deal, asking that question. So how do you articulate or think about mastery? Well, you know, I started listening to your podcast.

I think Karch Karai, was he the first person that you had? So from the beginning, I was listening and loved hearing. And I was waiting for someone to say, there's no such thing as mastery. You can never get to that point. Because I think some of us maybe feel that way and all this stuff is, uh, you know, words are insufficient to explain what we really mean sometimes. But, uh, to me, mastery is awareness. It's alertness, it's presence, it's having a clear mind right now to be the best version of yourself and not obscured or covered up by all this mind stuff that the world

creates. Yeah, I love it. You've been thinking about it. I've been trying to figure out what it really made, but I can't, I couldn't really come up with much better than that. I love it. Thank you. Shaka, thank you for this time. Thank you for sharing and doing it honestly and with integrity and like the whole presentation of today. Um, I've really appreciated, you know, getting to know you in this way. So thank you. Well, thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of, uh, of what you do and, uh, looking forward to. Yeah. And I'm going to have a whole, like really wonderfully fun time watching you, like getting to know you now in this way, and then watching what you're going to be doing, uh, with your team and your coaches and the whole, like, I'm just going to have a blast doing it.

So, and then, so where can people follow along that want to, to be part of your journey? I knew you were going to ask me that. I'm not a huge social media guy. Our, here's how you can follow our team on Twitter at Texas MBB and Instagram, Texas MBB. Yeah. Okay. And so one of the things that's happened is coaches have gotten more and more into you know being able to promote what they do and what their programs do over social media and uh let's just say i'm a little behind on that but that's not totally cool so at texas mbb men's basketball, um, cool. And then for those of us that enjoyed this

conversation, um, you know, you can follow along, uh, that way on social media and then also write a review, head over to iTunes, write a review for this conversation with Shaka. And, um, and I just want to thank everyone for being part of this experience that we're co-creating together. And if you're new to this, definitely head over to iTunes, follow along, subscribe. You can also find us on findingmastery.net with lots of other podcast guests. And there's also Minutes on Mastery. I don't know, do you know about this? Minutes on Mastery, which is just these two, three minute pearls of wisdom from folks. So we're going to slice and dice all of your insights, Shaka,

and have you on that as well. So minutes on master is a separate podcast on iTunes, and then you can hit me up at Michael Gervais on Twitter and then at finding master on Instagram. So appreciate everyone. Shaka. Thank you. Thank you. All right.

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