Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Challenges (and Opportunities) That Come With Mental Health Diagnoses | Sarah Fay

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Sarah Fay, an award-winning author and mental health advocate working to improve how we think and talk about our mental health.Sarah’s experience of being diagnosed with six different mental health disorders over the course of 30 years and finding no relief led her to write her best-selling journalistic memoir Pathological: The True Story of Six Misdiagnoses.As part of her continued devotion to changing the conversation around mental health, Sarah also founded Pathological: The Movement, a public awareness campaign dedicated to empowering people to make informed decisions about their mental health.  In this conversation, Sarah opens up about how she came to inhabit her diagnoses, how we can improve the diagnosis process, and her inspiring journey to recovery.   With almost one in five citizens (47.1 million people) in the U.S. alone having been diagnosed with a mental health condition, there’s no doubt that a majority of us have been touched by this issue – I hope this conversation gives you a new framework for navigating the complexities of mental health, and a deep knowing that no one is in it alone._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I live for 25 years. I mean, my mental state deteriorated for 25 years and I have to be very respectful of that. It doesn't mean I have bipolar lurking in me waiting to come out. It doesn't mean I have major depressive disorder. It means I've been through hell and it means that I have to take care of myself. Okay. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael

Gervais by trade in training, a high performance psychologist. And I'm excited to have a conversation with Sarah Faye. So Sarah is an award-winning author and mental health advocate working to improve how we think and talk about our mental health. She's currently on the faculty of the English departments at Northwestern University and DePaul University and is the founder of Pathological, the movement. So that focus is on empowering people to make informed decisions about their mental health. Now, her experience of being diagnosed with six different mental health disorders and finding no relief led her to write the best-selling journalistic memoir, Pathological, the true story of six misdiagnoses. Sarah, thank you so much for

coming on and talking about a really challenging topic. So what I thought we'd do is we'd start with some context about why you decided to write your book. Can I read you a quote from the book? Yeah, please. Okay. So here's one that just grabbed us. I wrote it to try to save people from going through what I went through. Pathological is dedicated to everyone who's been diagnosed and misdiagnosed and overdiagnosed. It's everything I wish I'd known about the mental health system. All right. So how do you respond to that?

Well, I mentioned that I love that you chose this quotation. It's really the core of the book. It's really my motivation for writing it. And it's so important because when we start to criticize psychiatry or we start to criticize diagnoses or even put them under a microscope, people assume, oh, anti-psychiatry. And I'm not at all. And I wanted to be sure, you know, that quote really says it. I see a psychiatrist still. I've, you know, I he's wonderful and he's very transparent with me about all these things. He's in the book, Dr. R. He's fine with being in the book, as far as I know, he hasn't objected.

But so I'm not at all anti-psychiatry. And what I wanted to do instead was bring to people, as I said, or as in the quote, everything I wish I'd known. And what's interesting is one Goodreads reviewer said, my book is dangerous. And I thought that was so fascinating. I shouldn't read those types of reviews, but I actually, at first it really disturbed me because I want to be a good person and I don't want anything to do, you know, I don't want to produce anything that's dangerous. But then I thought, why is it more dangerous to educate people before sending them or their children into the mental health system, right? Like, well, how could that possibly be dangerous as opposed to sending them in unknowingly, not being able to really be empowered to make the mental health, the decisions about their

mental health that they need to make. And I think part of it is, and I know that this was where the reviewer was coming from is all this risks that maybe people won't ask for help. And I understand that, but just because we're criticizing, you know, the state of our, you know, sort of mental health system doesn't mean there aren't positives or that people can't use it. Like nowhere do I say it's unusable or be careful, never go into it. Technically I'm still in it. So yeah. Well, I like the fact that somebody picked up on that it is dangerous and this might sound surprising to many folks in our community, but the DSM, we should talk about what the DSM is first,

but here's the provocative thought is that I don't disagree with you. And I'm classically trained as a psychologist with a specialization in sport and high performance. And I use it as a framework and rarely do I share kind of a diagnosis with a, an athlete or client only if I have an, uh, this thought that it's going to help them to know that there's a lot of other people that are struggling with some of the similar, um, you know, symptoms that they are. And so rarely do I share it with somebody, but it's for me because I'm classically trained, it's kind of always working in the background. And that helps me to do two things.

It helps me to have, if I'm in a collaborative environment with other mental health or physical medical professionals is to say, Hey, listen, I'm seeing a cluster. And, and, and then there's a name for it that shorthands almost the cluster of symptoms that somebody's struggling with. And the other thing, which I'm not in the system at all, is for billing. Insurance companies use it to know, like, how do I pay? And so those are the three variables, right? It's like there's a peers, you know, way to have conversation.

There's conversations with business conversation. And then, of course, the pointy tip of the arrow, you know, with the client, maybe that's not a great analogy, but you know, on the front line with the client, like in the most intimate settings known to humans, like sometimes it's good to have a framework. And so I'll stop talking here. And when you hear how I've been thinking about it, where do you go? Well, I love everything you just said. And I, so I think it points to you are qualified to use the DSM. So you are qualified to use this manual just to kind of, you know, briefly say what it is. It's

essentially the manual that psychiatry has developed for clinicians to use to diagnose patients with, you know, it could be major depressive disorder or generalized anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, whatever it would be. But everything, those three kind of ways that it can be used are so vital and important. I'm also not one of those people who wants to throw the DSM out the window. I don't think that's valuable at all. I needed help and people need help and I needed treatment and people need treatment. It's what we have. It's what we're using right now.

Where I think it gets dangerous, not my book necessarily, is that the DSM has become a work of culture. So it has filtered into the mainstream. We're using it. Unqualified lay people, we're diagnosing each other. We're self-diagnosing on TikTok. Teens are self-diagnosing on TikTok. You know, there are TikTok therapists throwing out diagnoses. And that is where I think we've crossed the line. And that didn't happen until the 1980s when the DSM became a bestseller. It was never meant to be a bestseller.

I mean, that's bizarre that a medical manual would be, I mean, if we want to call it a medical manual, but a physician's manual would be a bestseller. And it is so much a part of our literature and film and television and just the way that we talk and the way that we see ourselves without the kind of knowledge that you have, which is, okay, this is valuable. If the diagnosis is going to help someone, I used every diagnosis I got against myself. I used it to do that. Yeah. So when I finally, I used it to limit myself. Oh, I have major depressive disorder. So I can't do X, Y, Z. This means I am this way. More importantly, every emotion and thought, so troubling emotion, unsettling thought was because

of my diagnosis. And I never learned how to process emotions. I never really, I never knew what emotions were until a few years ago. And I'm 50. That should not be the case. So I just, you know, and I didn't know how to manage my mind. I didn't know how to relate to my brain or how the brain worked. I just had no, everything, the diagnosis became everything. It was my identity. This conversation is brought to you by our very own Finding Your Best course. As you know, from listening to the podcast, our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, I want to encourage you to check out our online psychological training course, where we pull together the best

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To sign up for the course and receive that discount, just head to findingmastery.net slash course. That's findingmastery.net forward slash course to receive $50 off. Let's do almost a tutorial of what bipolar one is as opposed to bipolar two. And I'm happy to take the lead, but I'm sure it'd be fun for me to hear how you're capturing bipolar one. Yeah. If you don't mind. No, I don't. And please, you know, you know, so please come in. I really see it through the patient's lens and what happened to me. And then all the research I did and that I put into pathological really explained a lot as to how I got the diagnosis and then how I was moved up from bipolar two to bipolar one.

So, you know, bipolar is essentially moving between extremes. And I do think, and many clinicians have said this and researchers, it's a good example of a diagnosis that's pretty accurate, let's say. Like it's, you know, it's not that we can test it. There's no blood test to say whether or not I had it. So it's not terribly reliable or necessarily scientifically valid, but it's been with us since, you know, the ancient Greece. So manic depression, the swinging between moods, the extreme swinging between moods is very, very real. And mania can be paranoid. It can be, you know, I mean, it can be very, very dangerous for people. So that's when you're, I mean, revved up is really not a way to explain it, but you are, you know, speaking very fast and thinking very quickly,

usually taking high risks. So gambling money, some, you know, spending money, sex, risky sex, that kind of thing. And often in a disordered state. So kind of speaking in words salad sometimes, although that tends to be more like of a psychosis trickling in. And then depression, we, many of us do know because it's a, you know, integral part of the human experience in that, but where bipolar one is, it's very extreme. So I actually have a friend who he's, she's more more of a person that I'm working with, but she just went through that. So she had a manic state and I saw her and everything was great. Everything was fine. Everything's amazing. Yeah. And all this and she loved it. And she just thought that people were talking to her like her ex-husband from Austria.

And I mean, it was just but everything's great. And then she, the mania stops and she has been like, and this isn't a fair way to describe it, but bipolar light. So you didn't have to have mania. You could have hypomania. You didn't have to have depression. You could have, you know, dysthymia. So you didn't have to be quite so on either extreme and the danger there for me. So I received the bipolar diagnosis, the bipolar two diagnosis first, which happens to a lot of people. And it's kind of, for lack of a better term, the gateway drug to bipolar one. It's very easy to slip from bipolar two to bipolar one, as opposed to before 1994, when you had to really show the extremes of bipolar one to even get near it.

I mean, those are very extreme states. And Alan Francis, who was one of the chairs of the DSM for task force committee who created bipolar two has said they made a mistake and that it really created a false epidemic of people being told that they have bipolar when they don't. I mean, for me, as you probably can tell, I'm a very high energy person. My depression looks very different from other people's and my high moods are very elevated. So that's the problem because we don't have a blood test and we don't have a way to gauge this. I look manic maybe, you know? And then the other problem was one of my doctors, he's in pathological Dr. M he was a bipolar expert and he was very determined to make me bipolar. He was just

absolutely. And I had already received the diagnosis before I saw him. I received the first, first time I received it, I was in my late 30s. I was in a doctoral program and I was suicidal. And I was in the hospital and the intake psychiatrist said, you have bipolar. At the time, I thought I had OCD and ADHD with depressive and anxious elements. So that's where I was living for. That was what Dr. Pinkle told you. No, no. That was what my physician told me.

That was my actual diagnosis. Not kidding. Yeah, I know. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform.

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One a day. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough.

And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David D A V I D protein P R O T E I N.com slash finding mastery bipolar one and two. Um, the way that I remember learning about it was, and it just stuck with

me, is that bipolar two, it's hypo, right? Meaning just below full manic breaks or episodes. And we should also be clear before I finish this thought is that mania, full-blown mania is almost like a break from reality. It's not pleasurable. Hypomania can actually be quite nice for people. Some are like, oh my God, I'm getting so much done. Why can't you keep up? This is amazing. But it's problematic. Both of them are problematic for noticeable problems at work and social and

emotional and school, if you're in school. So anyways, my thought was that bipolar two is like two little legs and the mania chases away the depression. I mean, the rubrics we learned in school, but so it's just below the threshold of a full blown kind of hospitalization requirement. And that was the way that we thought about one and it's changing. But I say all that saying, okay, I hear how you're describing it right on. It takes time to be diagnosed with bipolar because you need to have a major episode of depression and some sort of main, uh, mania event, hypo or full blown. So that can get a little tricky, but it sounds like you had the time under belt and like early on, you're like,

no, this is what you're working on. I mean, it's, it's interesting, you know, as I was seeing the, the thing was, so I had received it from in the emergency, you know, or in the psychiatric ward first. And then I went to see another psychiatrist when I moved to Chicago and received it again. And then I saw the bipolar expert and received it again. And he did something with me where he took me through my history with a life chart. And I went through all of my memories and basically it was this very clinical looking, you know, X, Y axis. And I noted where I had had high moods or risky behavior or something like that. And then depressive episodes. And, and I, this is

empathological as well. It was like my whole life became, yes, I am bipolar, not, I have it. I am it. And it is biological. So that's okay. So that's, that's the takeaway, right? It's not that I have a set of behaviors that are challenging in all of my environments. It's that I am this. And so it's like you swallow the diagnosis. This is me. And I'm limited, right? There's something wrong with how I do things. And so I am a disorder.

Is this the diagnosis that you're identifying with now? Bipolar? I don't know what my diagnosis is anymore. Okay. So this was early in your journey. Was this a misdiagnosis then? So just to recap for everybody what's in the book, I received my first diagnosis at age 12. I was told that I had anorexia. And again, there were contributing circumstances to that. In my twenties, I was told I had generalized anxiety disorder, then major depressive disorder. Then in my thirties, I was told I had ADHD and OCD and ADHD and OCD with anxious and depressive elements. And then finally bipolar two and bipolar one. So that was my last diagnosis.

And again, this is in the book, but when I finally, I was suicidal and had fallen out with Dr. M who was the bipolar expert. And I went to see a new psychiatrist and he he's Dr. R my current one. And after our 30 minute consultation, when many psychiatrists, and I should note, most of my diagnoses came from primary care physicians. So there again, we're getting into people- Yeah, hold on. We should stop.

We should stop right there. Honestly. I go crazy right here. This is like, okay, so a couple of things. One is the DSM. This is the manual that says, okay, if you've got these types of symptoms, a couple of things. One is the DSM. This is the manual that says, okay, if you've got these types of symptoms, a cluster of these symptoms, we think that this is a good label for them. Right. And like I said, that label is good for physicians to talk to each other, psychologists or psychiatrists or

whatever. You don't need to necessarily know it unless it's going to help you. Right. Because in some weird way, it's a shorthand for efficiency. It's also a way that billing takes place, which is, I got a problem with that, but not that a, not that a GP it's out of their scope, but, but this is all, all we do is all we do is think about how complicated psychological conditions are and the psychological world that we're trying to better understand, which invisible. I can't imagine. I can't imagine a couple courses in medical school being able to say, and listen, I'm going to get a whole shit ton of flack from this. I understand.

Like, I welcome it is like a couple of courses in med school. And to think that in residency, maybe in our rotation, I should say, um, it's not enough. And so I would never want my family member to be diagnosed by a GP. Um, but if he smells something, he'll something then. Okay. Let's, let's get a specialist in here. Anyways. To support you and to maybe encourage people who are going to give you flack to put their pens down or something. I mean, the reality is primary care physicians, GPs are writing 80% of antidepressant prescriptions. They write 50% of antipsychotic medications to children, pediatricians do. And so, you know, we're not talking about a like problem kind of, I mean,

this is, you're talking about really damaging people and, and they don't have the skills. I mean, when I finally did my research and looked into all the GPs who had very blithely after 15 minutes told me I had ADHD, generalized anxiety, here's Valium, here's, you know, they, and I should say not all of them really were unwieldy with medications and I have no problem with medication. So that's another topic, but, but that once I looked into it, I mean, they have essentially the equivalent of binging on a few seasons of Grey's Anatomy that is there, you know, and I'm sorry, I'm poking fun a bit, but it, you know, what my life would have been like all of my diagnoses until bipolar disorder came from primary care physicians. What would it have been like if I had just been told

to see a psychiatrist? That's it. Yeah. So, okay. I am, I'm highly encouraging. I think you are too, is like, take your mental health seriously. You know, wellbeing matters and your inner life is a major stakeholder in your overall wellbeing. And if you're struggling in any kind of way, go to a specialist, like figure that out. Just like there's a knee specialist, there's a foot specialist, there's a shoulder specialist. They don't operate for the most part on other joints, especially, especially in high speed in high performing environments. I'm going to go to somebody if my life depends like on, on this thing being great for me to do my thing. I'm going to go to a ankle specialist.

That's world-class guess what your mind, everyone's mind that we're talking to. It's the only thing we have really like, like go to a specialist, lock into that inner, inner, inner experience of who you are. And I say that because, um, I've got family members that have struggled deeply. I understand what it's like to struggle. And I also understand, this is why I wanted to have you on, Sarah, is that I had a physical diagnosis and I know exactly how you felt. They put the MR, this was before there was like digital, they put the MRI up on the screen

and I completely swallowed that it was dangerous for me to walk. I had a pretty bad neck injury and I got significantly worse from that point forward, almost for two years until I got to a point. I'm wondering if you got to this point where I said, the fuck am I doing? And I was like, I can't, I can't keep obsessing about how dangerous it is for me to move because of this image that I saw. And I saw the white coat, the doc, look at it, look at the film, look back at me as I'm sitting and he's standing, you get the image here and he goes, are you okay? And I go, yeah, I mean, I'm in pain, but like, because yeah, this is really quite dangerous. And his eyes got big. I was like, holy shit.

So looking back, I just got led down and this was a, call it a weak version of Mike, but I, I swallowed that thing completely. So I can't imagine if I, I didn't have it the duration you had. So I just, there's so much you just said that I want to speak to, but one thing I just want to say about GPs is that I understand their role and I understand why we have them doing it in the sense that it's very hard to see a specialist, especially for people who don't have healthcare or good, you know? So I just want to be like very aware of that. And right now with the mental health crisis among teens and children, my understanding

is some people have to wait a year to see a child psychiatrist, that it's that backed up, the mental health system is that clogged. So again, but one thing I did learn, and I didn't know this, but, and I know this is uncomfortable and it may not be the most effective way, but you can ask your GP to consult with a psychiatrist. You can do that. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's right.

You know what? Yeah. So as you just shared that bit about the backlog, I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. So hold on. Like, what are we doing here? Like, what is this conversation about? Because you're right.

Like I had a family member that desperately needed to get into a psychiatrist and I had to pull like, I had to call friends and like try to figure it out. And it was severe. And thank God the psychiatrist was able to do it. And you know what? My internal medicine doc, the person I trust about, he's great. And so I'm not doing writ large here. And I trust him with all of my family members as well.

So to your point, I think what you're saying is like a consult between two professionals behind the scenes, if you will, is a strategy. It's not the best strategy, but, you know, because really it's our right as patients to be there. But I haven't heard of anyone actually inviting patients into that conversation. So here's something that, okay, so let's say that you've got a diagnosis and this is why the DSM is valuable that one practitioner says to another, Hey, I think it's two nine 6.30. Okay. So like that's a code and it means severity, a level of severity. And so, and then they go, okay, great. What are you thinking for treatment? And they say, well, A, B, and C. And let's say A is medication.

And there's a reason for it. If you don't have B and C in place, medication is not the answer. So medication, I know you can speak to this, right? So medication is not the answer if you're not treating it with psychotherapy and or exercise and there's volunteering, mindfulness practices. There's a whole host. There's like five to seven best practices that I think about all the time for people. Medication being one of the ones that I rarely rely on. Um, but there's a time and place for it. And I, I don't know, I'd love to hear your, your, from your deep lenses, um, how you respond to that. Finding mastery is is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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I would love it if we just use codes. Wouldn't it be great? You're 293.46. Would you like that? That feels so cold. That doesn't feel cold though. But that would stop us from seeing ourselves as a diagnosis because we wouldn't even know what it means. Well, it's going to turn into like 5150 at some point. Like that's crazy, right? Like

you got to be locked up. Like I'm a 5150. I'm a 296. You know, I'm a 300.1. Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know what my diet I've asked my psychiatrist, Dr. R not to tell me my diagnosis because I didn't want to. And that's what led to my recovery is from serious mental illness after 25 years was that I could no longer say this is because of my depression. This is because of my bipolar. I had to start to learn to live as a person without a diagnosis. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Pendulum. We've all heard how essential a healthy gut microbiome is to overall health and wellness. And you're probably not going to be surprised that many of the off-the-shelf probiotic products,

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You have your PhD, I think it's in education. It's in English. Yeah. In English. I'm a doctor, but I can only help. Yeah. I'm a doctor, but I can only help people read a book. Read a book. Oh my God, please. So, so I wanted to just make that really clear is that you're one of the highest educated people on the planet and you have struggled through this mental, this, this poorly navigated ecosystem of mental health. And so I have, what is it? It's like an admiration at the same time. Like it's not sadness for you and it's not pity for you. It's like, it's all it's there's an anguish that's in here somewhere. So it's like, Oh God, that like, how hard has that been? So I'm trying to convey to you that I feel how hard it must have been to navigate what depression alone is like.

It feels like I've got bricks and concrete around my legs and I'm walking through, everyone feels it a little differently, but, and I'm walking through like a, you know, quicksand, if you will, weighted down. So like, Bravo. Thank you so much for being able to do that. Yeah. Thank you so much for saying, you just made me tear up. Like it is, I tend to be living past all that now, but it's true.

I mean, it was brutal. And I understand anyone listening who might have a hard time hearing what we're talking about and putting this under a lens. I get it. I mean, I, I was very beholden to my diagnoses and I didn't want to hear them questioned at all. And, and I know what it's like to be in that kind of pain for me, depression is a sodden pit in my stomach. And that's how you feel. And anxiety is this unnerving, like vibration in my chest that makes me almost sometimes feel like I'm going to throw up. And so, but I didn't know that. And, and to your point too, about, you know, being highly educated. I also, cause we were

talking about medication. I tried everything. I was very anti-medication. I didn't receive my first medication until technically I did receive a Valium prescription, which I quickly abused and then got off of, but in my twenties, but not until my thirties, did I ever take my first real psychotropic drug. And that's a long time to be in the mental health system without being told to take medication you know, medication. And then, you know, I was given ADHD medications and put on SSRIs and then antipsychotics and then mood stabilizers. So the moment I was given my first prescription, I quickly was being given one after another and dosages played with. And that's the other thing that's really contributed to my recovery is right now I'm still on medication.

I tried to go off of my medications. The withdrawal was so harrowing. I almost died. I will not try it again. I shouldn't say never, but probably not. And I want to encourage people do not think that going off medication means anything in terms of recovery. A lot of us are going to stay on meds for the rest of our lives and we can still recover. So that's an equation I made. I would mistakenly made. And I just don't, it's very dangerous to do that. And don't, please don't do that, you know, but there's nothing shameful.

Is it treating, are you, is the medication treating the mania? No, it's not treating anything anymore. I am simply, my body is dependent on it. I mean, one thing I go through, I mean, and I talk, I go through the withdrawal in the book, but SSRI withdrawal, I've been on them for now, I've been on them for almost 20 years. So they were only meant to be on for three months at a time. They never ever studied withdrawal. And even now they're not really studying long-term effects, mainly because, I mean, a lot of science doesn't

fund that kind of research because it's expensive to do long-term studies, but I don't believe there's anything wrong with me. There's nothing being modulated. I could be wrong. I don't want to find out. Oh, Sarah, let's dig. Are you sure? Let's dig in there. Well, it's interesting because now that I've entered, and we can talk about recovery and what that means and how I healed. Yeah. What does that, what does recovery mean to you? That's really interesting that you're talking about mental health recovery. Yeah. And so I did, I have fully recovered from serious mental illness and I was actually scared to tell people because I thought it was, you know, I thought in 25 years, the word recovery was never spoken to me. I was never told that that was even a possibility, that that was even a possibility. I've never heard this.

Right. Right. And you're a psychologist. No, yeah, I've never heard it. So like, okay, this is exciting. I'll take you through. Yeah. So, and this is going back to what you were talking about with your knee, with your neck problems. When you said, I just, I can't keep doing this, right? And I had a similar moment. I happened to have been suicidal at the time, and I just thought, this is going to go one way or the know, and part of it was also my psychiatrist, Dr. R who has done so much for me. He has no idea that he's done any of these things for me, by the way, I don't think of him as a savior, but he has certainly helped. But he told me a story one day, apropos of nothing. I mean, he just looked at me and he was, I don't know, even know why he told me, but he said, I had a client once and she had schizoaffective disorder and he's sort of

wry. And by the way, he's a biologist in training. He believes psychiatry is the most noble profession. He's a believer. So even though he will acknowledge and be very transparent with me about the problems with diagnoses and that sort of thing, he's also a believer. So I just don't want to paint him as anything but that, but anyway, he's also a little irreverent. And he said, um, schizoaffective disorder, she had schizoaffective disorder, worst diagnosis you can have no hope, no hope at all. And, um, so he said her family came to him just for clarity. Essentially it's people are not working in reality, you know, in the reality we understand, like it's a totally different reality for those folks that feel encapsulated in that experience of how they engage with reality.

And it, it's brutal. It's not, I don't know a treatment for it. And, um, I'm not an expert in it, but just for clarity, it's, it's not anything you would wish on a loved one. And his shorthand was it's schizophrenia mixed with bipolar disorder. And so it's just, you know, which are two also very kind of portrayed as hopeless diagnoses. But anyway, his her family was a family of litigators and they wanted him to treat her and ended up he they didn't believe in what he was doing and took her to Mass General, you know, very wealthy family. And, and anyway, she came back and, and he ended up seeing her through to full recovery. And she became an executive at Google. This blew my mind. I was like barely out of being suicidal at that point. And one of the many times, but I literally was like, what, how can that pass?

No, you don't recover from mental illness. You don't recover from schizoaffective disorder from anything. And I went home right away and I Googled, I was just like, and I Googled it and found all kinds, you know, mental health, America, NAMI, all these organizations, all these fairly legitimate sites. No, you don't heal from mental illness. And this was a few years ago. They have since changed their websites to be more geared toward the recovery model, which is what mental health is moving toward and which is why this is not a dark conversation and a very positive one.

But that was the first time I even heard of anyone recovering. And so I decided. That's very cool. This is, look, I've been in this, I love, this is why I love the Finding Mastery podcast. Okay. So you can be, it's not remission. Nope. You're saying I'm recovered.

Like I am through. I feel like I have figured out how to work with myself in a really great way. I've got joy and happiness and meaning and purpose and like I'm thriving. And so one way to think about it is suffering, struggling, and thriving. If you think about that quote unquote hierarchy is that when you're in the throes of, let's say just deep depression or depression, it's like I'm struggling or maybe I'm suffering, right? Depending on the severity. And you're saying, yeah, listen, I figured it out for me. I'm thriving. And what's fascinating is you asked what the definition is, and there are many definitions, but I'm not pulling this out of a hat. So the surgeon general's report in 1999 was

the first to mention the word recovery. And it actually called for our mental health system to change, to change. Sorry, that was actually the new freedom commission in 2008. If I'm not mistaken, it could be 2006, but basically both of those documents talked about how we need to move away from a biomedical model of mental illness and move toward a recovery model where people are given the option to recover, even just given the option. It's not easy. It was hell for me.

And it's not to say anyone can, and it's not to say everyone will, but we've got to give them the option. I mean, that's a ridiculous idea that no one ever gave that to me as a choice. And instead, it was just a lifetime of treatment. Yeah. Okay. Managing my symptoms. Managing your symptoms. So in the world of alcohol and other drug recovery, they use that word seriously, right? Because there is a reverence for how quickly they can slide or slip or move back into the full swing and the full throws of their addiction. And so they work it, you know, and of course, everyone's a bit different in how they work it.

Do you, I don't want to be insensitive, but do you feel like it could come back or you're like, listen, like I'm not arrogantly saying it, but like, how do you, how do you think about it? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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So that version of recovery and the AA model, I mean, they're different with substance abuse disorders or problems. There are different models, but the AA model specifically is that idea that you are always an alcoholic. In the recovery community. You are actually the second stage of recovery is sorry. It could be a third change, third stage. You're moving past your diagnosis. I am not someone with any diagnosis anymore because I've recovered. And what's fascinating is that in recovery, we don't ever talk about diagnoses ever. We talk about, I talk about experiences and we talk about troubles and we talk

about, you know, how emotions and thoughts and behaviors and how our lives are and our context and how much money we're making. I mean, you know, I mean, all of these things really, we know that this contributes to our mental health and the biomedical model also allows us to sidestep social injustice and economic inequality. So if it's all in your biology, oh, well, it can't be because we're, you know, we're marginalizing people, or it can't be because we're really, you know, mistreating people, which affects your, you know, mental health. I hope I answered. Now I forget where we came from. Oh, but what you mentioned was more for me, that's remission. And that's what they

often try to kind of sell us on. But recovery, what's beautiful about it is it's not an end point. Some people do reach an end point like I did. And for instance, I'm a certified peer recovery specialist. And what that means is now that I've recovered, I help other people on their journey to wellness and on their journey to recovery too. And one of my- And is this work? Yeah. Wait, is this working with people that are in mental health recovery? No. Well, they have mental, yeah. Or are they in the throes or? Yeah. Okay. So there's a range. Okay. And then

I think this is really important as you're talking about this. Are you still in therapy? No. And therapy wasn't the best modality for me. And let me just qualify that, especially with this audience. One thing that I have read is that, that really the modality doesn't matter. Meditation, therapy, whatever it's going to be for you. You know, for me, it's cats, like whatever, whatever it's going to be. The modality doesn't matter. What matters is hope. It matters if you believe you can, and it matters that you have a connection to the people helping you. That's what matters. And so that is the future of mental health.

And as peer recovery specialists, that's what we do. So what I do is I give people hope where there isn't any. And I give people, you know, and I give, I show people their strengths when no one else will, and when they can't see them. And I did it by myself. I didn't have peer recovery specialists helping me. And I so wish that I had, and, you know, there is a tide sort of turning right now or changing in that Biden, it supposedly just reached President Biden about peer recovery specialists and what we can do if we are integrated into the mental health system as paid employees. There are already peer recovery specialists in Cook County Jail, for instance, that assist when someone is brought in in emergency rooms where I ended up. So when you're suicidal, you aren't left to wait for 12 hours in a chair, but you are greeted with someone who's been there and says, I know what you're going through.

I'm here. Let's go sit down. I'll just sit with you. Or psychosis where we learn emotional CPR is a method that I've learned. That is how you sit with someone in psychosis and you don't ask them questions and badger them except to get them where they need to be. You sit with them. You just sit with them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Sundays. If you're like me, your dog is a really important part of your family. What are you feeding them? I feed him Sundays and he loves it. So Sundays, it's the first human grade air dried dog food.

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suicide, right? Which I have not been suicidal. And so my job is, well, to use best practices when somebody's there and to be warm and thoughtful and caring and do all of that. But I actually, I have to rely on other feelings of being terrified and hopeless, but not that actual one. So I totally see the value in that. that might be suicidal or have a loved one in the family that is struggling right now and you're worried about them. Could you take a moment and just speak to them? Yeah, definitely. And these are a lot of things I didn't have that I wish I had. And I just want to say something really quickly that's important. Sometimes peer recovery specialists and the recovery community is seen as being separate from clinicians. But the goal is to work together. I don't have best practices. I have lived experience. I can't do what you do. It's us working together. That's going to make the difference. Just so people are clear. So it's not about replacing clinicians or even knowing more because I don't,

all I can do is listen in a way that maybe someone else can't because I've been there. We do not give advice ever. We offer resources, which is what I can do right now in terms of what you asked about with suicidality. I think one thing that can be helpful, which I didn't know, is that there are different stages or degrees of suicidality. So to think about suicidality isn't actually abnormal. I mean, to think a lot about it, but to have a straight thought here and there is probably not something to worry about. Where it gets something to worry about is that if those thoughts are persistent and if you start to have a plan, that is an emergency situation. And we have a wonderful thing right now, which is

988. It's a new, the mental health emergency line. 911 often was problematic, particularly when it was called in cases of psychosis, because policemen aren't trained to, they aren't trained as mental health professionals. And that's where a lot of, you know, deaths had occurred. Not a lot, I shouldn't say that. But anyway, very unfortunate incidents occurred because we didn't have the right people there. 988, I should say, if they think you are a harm to yourself or others, they will call 911.

And some people are very worried about that because they've been hospitalized before and it has not been a positive experience. So they have been either enforced restraints or drugged and then asked to undergo electroshock therapy and not had the will, you know, the wherewithal to say yes or no in a response or no, you know, way that they would have liked to, I didn't have those experiences. So I'm very lucky, I can be more generous than a lot of people who are survivors of the psychiatric system that they feel they really barely made it out alive. I don't consider myself a survivor. I'm just someone in recovery.

And, you know, I see myself as an ex-patient. I was a patient. And that's we all there are many different terms. Some people like the term consumer. Some people like the term patient. Some people like the term survivor. There are others. So, you know, mad person is another one. I mean, the recovery community, we have a whole language really. And it depends just as recovery will look different for every person. Your experience of mental illness was different from anyone else's too. But back to suicidality, the other thing that was very crucial for me was I had an emergency plan with my sister. And so we had it in place and this was just what I did. I would, if I could. And the only reason I did was because the emergency plan was already in place. I called her, She would get me to do a cognitive behavioral therapy worksheet, which didn't really do anything except distract me while I took a Klonopin that would knock me out and make me get through the night and at least get me till the morning. I mean, it was a very clumsy plan, by the way. I really don't recommend using this, but please go to a

professional. But it worked for me. It is amazing, like things that actually do work. In the laboratory, maybe that's not. No, I don't think that would hold up to research. But I think that. There's actually some evidence that contracts don't hold up, but I use them. And I look somebody in the eye and I say, listen, let's agree on a plan when you start to feel this severe hopeless, you know, and let's, and the exercise of just thinking about it, I, I find to be valuable.

And then looking somebody in the eye and saying, okay, we're in this thing, right? Like who else? And what's, yeah, I had had that once with a therapist and i actually never felt comfortable calling her which is interesting so that's that's that's one of the reasons you call somebody else too like who else right and because it maybe isn't the therapist you know and maybe it is i don't know but like it needs to be the community with the person feels most comfortable and trusted. And sometimes when you're, you're paying for services, it's like, well, I'm going to get billed for this. Yeah.

Like there's another kind of thing. Yeah. And are they going to put me in the hospital and am I going to miss work? Right. Right. Right. And you know, like what, what's going to happen to me. And then I'm going to be someone who's been in the hospital. I mean, you know what, or I've been in the hospital and now I'm going to have to go back and I know how horrible it was or, or it was okay or whatever it might be, but, um, 51 50, here we go. But I think, you know, you did not, you did not like

that joke. No, not really. I don't know enough about 51 50 to joke about it to tell you that. Yeah. That's it's more than I don't know. It's me being callous. It's me being callous thinking about like in a non-professional way, like people that almost want to brag about being so kind of on the edge that they're crazy. Like it's me being callous too. So thank you for letting me feel your response to that. Well, what's interesting about that is I just was reading that on social media, there's a trend among young people where that is the same thing that it's sort of a badge of honor to be hospitalized. And it's kind of like a joke and they call it a vacation. And that really saddens me. I mean, because you've got a mental health system that's really clogged and we need those beds for people who really need them. Now, again, I don't know how prevalent this is, but so they call it slip sticky socks or sticky socks of

vacation. You know, the socks you get that stick on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. And so, okay. Yeah. But anyway, this is all to say also that there are many I think that peer recovery specialists can be a real support when it comes to suicidality. The other thing I did not know is there's something called warm lines instead of hot lines. And I had never heard of these. And so one, for instance, I'll mention is Wildflower Alliance has one. There are many around the country.

You can just Google warm lines. And those are for people maybe not fully in crisis, but concerned and knowing they need help. So it's not a hotline. You're not going to go straight through to 911 unless, you know, it really feels urgent. And they'll talk to you about that. But it's another resource that I knew nothing about. And so I would just offer those, you know, having an emergency plan, 988 and also warm lines. And then looking for peer recovery support centers, which are in all major cities. And then also there's something called peer respite centers. And those are for people who would like an alternative to emergency rooms if they are

experiencing suicidality or psychosis. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention.

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that so right now you can get 25 off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra 50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout that's lisa l-e-e-s-a.com the promo code is finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. There you go. Okay. How did you, how'd you bring your sister into your challenge when you were feeling like you had no hope? Yeah. I mean, yeah. My it's funny when criticism I've heard or that a reviewer on Goodreads, I shouldn't have done that. It was like one day on Goodreads. But I think it's, it's a cool bat. It's a cool badge that it's like, my book is dangerous.

A different one criticized me for, for having my family's support and anyone, anyone who's been through serious mental illness knows it's not that, I mean, I was estranged from my family for many years. I withdrew. I pushed my father and my stepmother away. I was sullen. I regret so much of those behaviors. And then I was unable to live independently once I was with, in my forties and I live with my mother. And over those five years of me being in and out of psychiatric crisis and suicidal, and she was on suicide watch all that time. So she's in her seventies at this point. I mean, I wish my mother is such a vibrant, amazing woman, like really just whip smart and loves archeology now that she's retired, you know, is such a vibrant, amazing woman, like really just whip smart

and loves archeology now that she's retired, you know, that gets her going, you know, she's just one of those people lights up a room. And by the time I had been there for five years, I mean, she just looked sallow and fragile and I had just worn her down. And I don't want to make anyone else feel that way about their family, but the truth is I did. And I, she would never say this. She would never have let me feel that she, but by the time, you know, that I, after all that time, it just being on suicide watch is not something any human being should be asked to do except a trained professional. It's too much responsibility. It

just is. And, and I, so I, I really, I'm so grateful to her, but I wish I could give her those years back and all of that. And, and I tried to help her and do what I could while I lived there too. And, but anyway, so when she could no longer play that role, I was in a partial hospitalization program and the therapist there helped me. We brought in my sister as kind of like changing the shift or the guard or something. And my mother was there too. And I just remember my mother kind of hunched over at the table and she never looks like that. You know, it was just so time for her to get a break as a caretaker. And I should say the families really

do have it the hardest in this. And my family is the hero of my book. They definitely are both my books, the book that's coming out too. And I'm so grateful to them. And that's not to say it wasn't extremely rocky. And I've spent the last few years really trying to rebuild my relationship with them and have a different relationship with them. So that's how I brought my sister in.

And then she was just the person, we had that emergency plan and we were never close. I mean, we really weren't. We are now, but we weren't at the time. So what a gift. You are using your life experiences as the canvas, then you're sharing your art with us and, um, we need more people to do it. So I, I see strength. I see intelligence. I see incredible

grit, you know, like this perseverance through hard times. I see a resourceful community member that pulled her community in and is also doing the same in return. And I think you're agitating in a really healthy way for us to be better. And us is everyone that has a relationship with themselves and relationships with others. And we can do better. The medical profession, the psychological profession, we can do better. The medical profession, the psychological profession, we can do better. And this is why I love this science. It's a beautiful science. It's complicated. It's invisible. And it matters so much. I mean, thank you for taking on me on and us on your, your journey, you know, and, and what you're and how you're thinking about it.

Are there some, okay, go get the book. I'll make sure that those links are in place. Are there, um, what are some takeaways? And I don't want to, I'm not trying to like shake out of, you know, you some, something pithy, but like, what are some takeaways that you're like, listen, I just think these are really important for my sense of vibrance in life. Like these are things that I do. And what would be some of those things you would hope others could explore?

Um, I, again, everything you say, I always want a million things to say, but, um But one thing I wanted to mention was it wasn't until I became a peer recovery support specialist that I knew I would never go back and that I wasn't in remission because then I was giving back. Then I was helping others and I could help others. And it slowly came out in that like certain emergencies happened in our family. And I was the one who stepped up and that had never happened before. I was like, whoa, something's going on, you know, this is different. And so, but I just wanted to mention that and how important it is that we do that.

And all the things that you said you see in me, I see in so many people or the potential there who are suffering from serious mental illness and more mild, you know, versions of, you know, our human experience, or I should say more intense versions of our human experience, like anxiety and depression and all of that. And so I think that potential is in all of us. One thing we do know about mental illness, and I think that this is probably one of the few things that we know is that it is, like you said, it's very complex. And I think that this is probably one of the few things that we know is that it is, like you said, it's very complex and there are really five factors that go into it. So it's might be a little biology and heredity, but hereditary, but we don't know a whole lot there

and we have not been able to pinpoint anything, but certainly it could be a factor and it is a factor. But trauma is a factor. Personality is a factor, but trauma is a factor. Personality is a factor. Environment is a huge factor. And then also that if you, we can catch it early within the first year, we have a much better chance of not having people go down the path to serious mental illness. We know that mental illness kind of builds on itself. So the longer you're in that state, and to me, the longer you're not offered the chance to recover, the harder it's going to be. And I

think the more serious it can be. Now, there are other sort of issues tied in here that I'm not qualified to speak on, like how medications work in the long run and that sort of thing. But I just want to mention them to honor people who are, who are working toward that. But, but I think that's really important to note that it's a five pronged experience and a lot has to happen to trigger mental illness and serious mental illness, kind of the forces have to come together. We aren't all sick. I mean, we just aren't. And, and I say that not to disregard anyone's pain, but I have to tell you, life sucks for me a lot of the time. I mean, I'm a human. I have black waves of depression. I still have panic attacks. I had one last week. I mean, there's no way to escape that. So you ask what I

do. I remind myself of that. And I remind myself that I'm a human having a human experience and I am going to experience these things and I'm going to having a human experience, and I am going to experience these things and I'm going to be nervous and I'm not going to want to be in social situations because I love to be at home with my cats and writing. So, you know, like that's just who I am. But as I recovered, and I think this is also important for people, I really had to accept parts of myself that are unattractive in American culture. Like, I really love being alone. I'm a very, I'm very fulfilled with my writing and my work and reading and other things and my cats. And so it's weird. I mean, that's not a very like

sexy thing to me in this culture and that's okay. Like, I don't know why that is, but things like that. I don't like to travel unless it's for work, you know, things that are not really, I had to accept them. And my mistake in recovery was thinking I had to actually become like everybody else or what we think, whatever this ideal we're throwing around for your race, culture, and economic situation, you know, cause we all have different ideals of what that might be. So I thought I had to be the ideal. And the thing that works for me is just continuing to find out what I like and what I don't like and honoring it. The other thing that is really important, and this goes, I think, or I shouldn't say this as advice, but I think it was important for me is that I really honor what happened to me.

I do not party, just to be clear. I do not drink. I don't do drugs. I don't smoke. I exercise. I eat very well. It's an effort for me to be healthy because it's an effort for everyone to be healthy. I mean, that's the reality. It's a lot of work to be healthy. And we know that. And, and so it's, but on top of it, I live for 25 years. I mean, my, you know, mental state deteriorated for 25 years. And I have to be very respectful of that. It doesn't mean I have bipolar lurking in me waiting to come out. It doesn't mean I have major depressive disorder. It means I've been through hell and it means that I have to take care of myself. And even if you haven't been through quote unquote hell, if you've been through anything, we have to honor that and not like

think we have to go back and be the, you know, I don't know what you would be, but like the, the person at the party or whatever, and you can be the person at the party, why I'm picking up parties, but, but you know, that, that we really honor what we go through and, and sometimes emotional crises and psychic pain can be very taxing, you know, and the other thing I should say, cause I really feel like I always need to talk about this, but I don't have children. I never wanted them. That wasn't the result of, of my experience with mental illness. And I think when you, I had a lot of, um, that gave me a lot of, uh, I don't want to say privilege, but opportunity to heal. I think that I was able to do some things that it would be very hard to do if I were a

parent. And, and so I just want to kind of acknowledge that for people who are also juggling that. So they have a career like I did, but then also a family. And that's, that's tough. I'm so glad that you just shared all of that. And, you know, reminding us, this is very simple kind of takeaway. One is we're all going through something. That part is like loud and clear. The second is that you got to work. Yeah. Like you got, there's five factors that we're working with. Yeah. Right. And why don't, why don't we think about those five factors and then see if you can optimize those. But if you're, if you're drinking, drugging, not sleeping, you know, you're scrolling and looking at porn and exhausted by like the dopamine kind of stuff that you're constantly fueling your body with, you're probably not going to feel very good.

Yeah. And I talk about, yeah, I talk about this in my new book about all the ways that I had to, you know, all the things that I had to go through to recover and not to offer advice, but to just give people ideas because again, recovery will look different for each person. But one thing that really stopped me was I drank caffeine. A lot of it. I was diagnosed with anxiety. How'd that help your mania?

Right. Exactly. And I say in the new book, I'm like, why isn't that the first line of treatment? Don't give someone a mood stabilizer. Don't give them a sort of a Klonopin or a benzodiazepine. What if you just ask them to quit caffeine? Now, quitting caffeine is horrible. So I mean-

Three days. Listen, two to three days. That's all this is. I guess the story of it as being a writer, like I needed caffeine or something, you know, so dramatic. But I think that those... Caffeine is a powerful, it is a stimulant that like there's a uniqueness to caffeine. And I drink tea. That's my choice. And without it, it takes like, again, two to three days.

I'm like, I don't need it, but I like it, you know? And so I love, I love that you're bringing this up because people that come into the, like find themselves in a hospital setting and they're having maybe, let's say an anxious manic episode or a psychotic break in some respect. And, you know, the practitioner will say like, oh, this is methamphetamine. That's drugs. It looks just like a psychotic break. Oh, it's okay.

So there's no meth here. Certain other drugs can do the same thing. So like, I love that you're pointing out that drugs, even the benign ones that are legal, uh, have an impact in our wellbeing. That's cool. And I drank, you know, in my twenties, I quit drinking when I was about 30. And the reason was I knew it was not going well. And certainly I think at that time, you know, first of all, I struggled with very dark depressions and also I had started

to experience suicidality. And I knew some part of me knew that it was going to be a lot easier to do if I drank alcohol. And so I actually quit cold Turkey, which was not the best. I mean, not cold Turkey, but without any support, I didn't go to AA or anything. So I don't think of myself as an alcoholic, but I certainly did. But I'm glad you bring that up because people that are using heavily alcohol, it's actually can be dangerous. Yes, totally. Yeah. So you want to, if like, and when I say heavily, I mean a lot and you know who you are.

And if you don't know who you are, you're probably in trouble if you're drinking as much as we're referencing here. And so a couple of glasses here and there is not heavy drinking. Right. Even for most people, like two to three, two glasses a day is not considered heavy drinking. I call it chronic. And I even consider chronic like Saturday, Sunday to one, more like two, two to three. But because it's like, that's what I do. And that there's a there's a chronicity in that. And so anyways, we don't, this is not this conversation, but the longer point here is that if you're heavily drinking, get out because it can be medically dangerous on the downside of it. And I think it's different for people who are having psychiatric struggles. I mean, then that, that number, you know, all of that. But also, I don't mean to imply that drinking or alcohol, using any substance is a choice. Because I heard this in one of my trainings to help people who are struggling with substance abuse disorders is the first time it's a choice. Then after that, there's something else, right? Then it's an addiction. And then there is another kind of thing at play, which doesn't mean you can't give it

up, but I just want to respect those. You know, for some reason I was able to escape alcohol. I'm not sure why. And I had never done drugs, but I understand that it is not that easy usually. Yeah. Simple way to think about it. Use, abuse, and usually. Yeah. Simple way to think about it. Use, abuse, and addiction. And so use can have intermittent and or chronic, and there's volume to that. And then abuse is like

you're using it for something else. You're abusing this thing. And most people know exactly what that means. And not everybody. And then addiction is like, one is not enough. And, you know, I'm sorry, one is too many and a thousand is not enough. And that's where I was for sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I love that. So just for, stay on this for a minute. It's a CNS depressant alcohol. And so like, think about that. If I'm depressed and I'm drinking and I'm basically Yeah, exactly. and I love the insight. Like, I just felt like I could maybe take the final step when I was under the influence of alcohol. Yeah. It's cool. And I think, you know, the point of all this is not to be Puritan, although I know it sounds that way. And that's what I mean about kind of like not

liking parts of what I discovered I had to do for recovery. You know, it's, you kind of have to end up a bummer or something. I don't hear Puritan. I actually hear discipline, you know, and I don't hear critical. I don't hear critical by you. What do you like at a party? I don't go to them. But like, if you're, if we're going to go to like a, you know, like a holiday party and it's like, and you're like, no, no, no, I'm just not going. No. I mean, you know, it's funny when I was going through this, I never left the house. I mean, for those five years that I lived at my mother's, I mean, I couldn't go to a Thanksgiving dinner.

It was just a phobia. So we have a new label. It wasn't phobia. It was that I was so sick. I'm so sick. I'm so sick. I'm so sick. And my psychiatrist was telling me how sick I was.

I'm so sick. Oh yeah. Right. So it was just in me that of course I can't do that. You know, of course I can't go have joy or be out or I'm like, I'm too unhealthy. Yeah. But I do now, you know, I love, I go to dinner, I go to lunch with my dad every week. And I, you know, like going to dinner with my family. I mean, I tend to be someone who my family's, you know, I'm closest to them. And so, but at a party, I mean, I teach for a living, so I teach at a university. So it's not like I'm a very sociable solitary.

Is it weird if, is it weird if like, this is my party, this podcast is my party? I love this party. Listen, we're partying now. This is a party to me. Yeah, I know. I feel the same way. All right. Listen, Doc, thank you. And what a fun, meaningful canvas. I said, I used the analogy earlier that you painted for us. Thank you. And you're inspiring me to want to actually share more about the mental health side of psychology using our community to understand it better. And so

thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful. Great. Where do you want to send folks to buy, to be part, to be part of what you're doing? So it's Pathological, The True Story of Six Misdiagnoses. It's at Amazon and every other bookstore. You can buy it at your local bookstore, go to BAM or Bookshop. And I'm Sarah Faye Author, all one word,

S-A-R-A-H-F-A-Y Author at all and then all socials. It's the same. And you can find me at sarahfaye.org. And my public awareness campaign is pathological, the movement, and it's something I'm really proud of. And what we try to do is just give people the facts they need. And it's some of what we talked about here to really navigate the mental health system in a way that's more empowering for them. And so one is that, you know, the chemical

imbalance theory was debunked 20 years ago. So I did not know this. I lived, that was my gospel was the chemical imbalance theory to get a second opinion. And that also, and you've touched on this so much, and it was something I didn't know that diagnoses were only invented for clinicians to talk to each other, not even to talk to a patient, not even to for certainly not for patients to see themselves in. So it wasn't until the 1980s that patients really ever even knew their diagnoses. So again, just thinking about that, that it's, it's a limited designation that's really best left to professionals. And then the fourth point is that full recovery from mental illness is possible.

I just want to add, I want to speak right into each one of us listening. There's so much more inside of you. There's so much more. And this is what's exciting about investing in your potential is that it's available. You do need to work at it and nobody does it alone. So connect with people that are invested in you being your very best. And I do not say that in a trite way.

Sarah, thank you for helping others do that. Me included. I appreciate you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.