Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Delicate Dance Between Risk, Reward, and Death | Skiing Legend, Cody Townsend

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

This week’s conversation is with a legend, Cody Townsend, one of the most awarded skiers in freeskiing history.Cody has evolved from a California beach kid obsessed with the mountains … to now stand atop the pinnacle of the sport.From a successful alpine ski racing career to stunt doubling for Hollywood films, or skiing the “Most Insane Line Ever”, Cody skis some of the most challenging and dangerous lines on the planet - all with an affable nature and a smile on his face.Cody’s latest project, called “The FIFTY,” is in his words, “simple” - it’s a goal he set to try to climb AND ski all fifty of the lines and mountains chronicled in the classic book, “The Fifty Classic Ski Descents of North America.”From Alaska to Colorado, California to Baffin Island, these lines are among the most difficult in the world and all of them have at least one historical descent. But no one has skied them all.Cody’s goal is to change that. And in my opinion, there’s no one more suited to do so.He’s about halfway through this project, and you can follow his progress on his YouTube channel… he uses skiing as his medium for insight, mastery and expression_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I ended up flying off this cliff and it was about a 90 foot cliff and I landed on rock off of it. And I was very close to dying off of it. And I remember that lesson. Luckily, I did not. But I had this feeling like your body, something was telling you that this was off and you were way too confident. You had way too much ego to do a line like that. And it was a huge reflection point. okay welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais by trade and training i am a sport and performance psychologist and i'm fortunate to work with

some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet and i I've got to tell you, I love my life. I love what I get to do. And I love the idea of being able to share how they work. And that's what this whole podcast, these conversations are about. I don't have any of my clients on, but I have some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet literally pull back the curtain to share how they work towards mastering both their craft and their minds. Now our minds are our greatest assets. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, this is just a quick little reminder here to check out the online psychological training course that we built, where we pulled together the best practices to meet that unique intersection of the psychology of high performance and the psychology of

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hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with a legend, Cody Townsend, one of the most awarded skiers in free skiing history. So Cody was a California beach kid who was obsessed with the mountains, who subsequently has designed his life with passion and purpose and hard work to now standing atop the pinnacle of the sport from a successful Alpine ski racing career to even stunt doubling for Hollywood films, or even skiing what you might be familiar with his name. It's on YouTube. It's

amazing. It's called Most Insane Line Ever. You should watch that. You need to definitely watch that. Cody skis some of the most challenging and dangerous lines on the planet, all with this very easy, chill nature and a smile, a big grin on his face. Cody's latest project, it's called The 50. In his words, it's simple. It's a goal to set to try and climb and ski all 50 of the lines and mountains chronicled in the classic book, The 50 Classic Ski Descents of North America. So from Alaska to Colorado, California to Baffin Island, these lines are among the most difficult lines in the world. And all of them have at least one historical descent, but nobody skied all of them. So that's where Cody is fired up on this exploration. And his

goal is to change that. And in my opinion, there's no one more suited to do it than him. He's about halfway through the project. And you can follow his progress on his YouTube channel. And I mean, every video. It's epic. What he's doing is epic. But more importantly, when you watch his stuff, it is an emblem or a nod to what you too are capable of in your life.

So he uses skiing as his medium for insight, for mastery, for expression. Now you have a medium too. I don't know what yours is, but what are the sources of inspiration in your life? What are the tools that you use to work through internal obstacles and external setbacks? Cody is sharing with us his dream life. And my hope is that you are sharing your version of your living dream with folks in your community. That's what we're doing here. And with that that let's jump right into this week's conversation with a legend cody townsend cody how are you i'm doing great how are you doing michael

fantastic uh where on the planet are you right now i'm at my home in tahoe city california um just kind of looking outside and hoping for snow. It's a little dry, a little warm right now for my liking. Well, why don't we start the conversation there with some of the really important geo-global political issues about climate change. And so I didn't think we're going to start here, but this directly impacts your livelihood and the way of living that you've designed. So can you just maybe share a few informed ideas that you have about, you know, climate warming and maybe some things that folks can do? Yeah. I mean, as a, as a skier, um, obviously the, a warming planet is going to have a huge impact on myself and my career and what I love to do. One of the things

you see a lot is that professional skiers, professional snowboarders are activists for it because we've been witnessing it for the past 10, 15 years. And obviously, snow is central to what we do. So being informed and educated about it has been pretty critical. And then becoming an activist for it has been part critical. And then becoming an activist for it has been like part of your like, well, I'm just trying to, you know, say what I love to do. As you get deeper, you realize like, well, the complications of this go far, far, far deeper than just skiing and snowboarding and could have global impacts that could be devastating for civilization. And, you know, as individuals, it's really hard because we need

systematic change. And we're led to believe quite often that buy an electric car or recycle and that'll do it. But the systematic changes are going to have to start from the very top. My number one thing I say is pressure the big businesses and politicians and vote for people that you want to see change. I think that's going to have our biggest impact because it's hard as individuals that the data shows that, you know, turning off, you know, not drying your clothes in your dryer is going to have a little bit of an impact, but collectively we'd need 7 billion people to do that. And that's a, it's a really hard thing to accomplish. Um, but you know, there's hope. Uh, I think a lot of people get kind of lost in the despair and see what's going on. And it's, it's pretty, um, it's pretty depressing. Um, but there's still hope. And I think we will get through this as, as humans. Do you have an organization that you found to be moving the needle in a meaningful way? Well, in our world, there's a group called

Protect Our Winters. And Protect Our Winters is founded by professional snowboarder Jeremy Jones. And they've done a lot on the education front, going into schools, educating young people about climate change. They've been doing that for the past eight, nine years. And then they're also pretty heavy in the lobbying side. So talking to politicians about this, showing how impactful it will be on mountain communities, not just skiers, but the entire kind of downstream from mountain communities down to farmers, to everything. So that's the organization I've worked with quite closely for the last five years. Jeremy was on the pod and yeah, he shared about it as well as, you know, I personally support as well. So Colt, protect our winners. It's an awesome organization. Okay. So, um, cool. Protect our winners. Um, it's an awesome organization.

Okay. So let's jump into this when you were younger and I'm thinking like young years, what was grabbing your attention? And that's the question, but I want to frame it for just a minute is because you're living an off access counterculture, get after it, high risk, high speed, exact type of standards in your performance requirements, you're living a really different path than most people choose to live. And so I would love to understand what was capturing your attention when you're a little guy. It was skiing from as young as I can remember. I kind of joke around with people quite often that when you go to college, people don't know what they want to grow up to be. And quite often you hear that question throughout your young life.

And from when I was six years old is when I decided I'm going to be a skier. I didn't know what a professional skier was. You don't know about basic economics and how to, how to, you know, live comfortably. But I just know, I was like, I'm going to be a skier. Um, I don't know why the sport grabbed me so heavily, but I do remember being, you know, six, seven, eight years old and growing up in Santa Cruz, California, which is, you know, four and a half hours away from the mountains. And all I could think about every day was skiing. Um, it was, uh, just complete and utter obsession. And I don't, I think I almost rewired my brain to just be like, this is what you're going to do,

figure out how to do it from that young of an age. And it kind of set me off on this path. Sometimes I wonder if I'm like, what if this didn't work out? How bummed would I have been? Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, you know, this is that it doesn't work out for most, right? Even if you have great skiing ability and physical attributes and you've chipped in, you know, from an emotional standpoint, a mental standpoint, it doesn't mean it's going to work out. And most people don't end up being able to become a professional athlete. And there's something about capturing the attention of a young mind, you know, whether it's skiing or traditional stick and ball sports or whatever it might be, that's like, wow, that would be amazing one day. But there's so many micro decisions that are made along the way. And there's so many factors that are out of our control that we end up taking different

paths. All that being said, how many of the folks that you now ski with at the elite level chipped in at age six, seven, eight? I would say most of them. I would say most of them were set on this path from that young of an age. Like you said, we quite often sell the myth that like, oh, if you just work hard and you get the right breaks, anyone can do it. If you're absolutely obsessed with it, you'll figure out a way. I even say that a lot.

I tell people like if they want to follow their dreams, it's just like you have to be 100% obsessed with it to figure out how to get good at this and make, uh, make the correct decisions to, to lead to your goal. But, you know, it's, it's not always the case. There's a lot of lucky breaks and you do have to have natural born in athletic talent. And so the people that I end up riding with quite often, we have similar origin stories. I would say. It was just this utter passion, but then they had something deep inside them, whether it's athletic talent, whether it's just drive, that let them be there. It's interesting because you want to believe that anyone can do it, but sometimes it's hard to come to that conclusion that maybe not everyone can do it. This is the part that like, I hear it and I've heard it many times and

it's a bit disturbing to me, you know, like, cause it doesn't give me space or hope, you know, for like, well, like let's say, let's say my son, I don't know. He's 13. He does not have clarity. And then I see on the world, he doesn't know at this point. And listen, there's no pressure because I also know that it takes a long time. And my job is to help him fall in love with something he wants to do for a long time and to give himself to his full self into growing in craft and self. And so how do you respond to that? Do you have kids, Cody? I do. I just had my first kid six weeks ago.

Yeah, that's right. And I wanted to talk to you about how that changed you. I've got a hypothesis I'll share with you as well about what happens when we become parents. So what happens if your kid doesn't kind of get switched on at 6, 7, 8? And most people listening had no clue what they wanted to do when they were in first grade? Yeah. I don't know how to deal with that yet because I have sold that dream and my life is about selling that dream. My life is centered around inspiring others. People watch what I do for many different reasons, but a big part of that is selling a dream, is selling that you can live a happy, fun life. So if my son doesn't seem to have that passion, I don't know how I'll respond to that because that's been central thesis to my life. It's an interesting topic because quite often I do think no matter what it is in life, if you do find something that gives you joy and you want to chase it, you have to be absolutely obsessed with it. You have to have that full passion to be successful and to live a happy life.

And maybe, you know, maybe it's plan B that it comes up for a lot of people. You know, I had to think about that many times in my own career of there was times when I didn't think it was going to work out. There was times that I didn't think I had the athletic talent to get where I got. I would say like, I've always considered myself not the most talented athlete. I grew up around some unbelievable athletes and I'd compare myself to them and be like, I am not that person. So I had to come up with plan B's and those plan B's were the same sort of deal where it was, it was driven out of passion. It was driven like, well, if I can't be a professional skier, then what else am I going to do? That's going to like drive me. That's not centered around financial outcomes. That's not centered around, um, you know, necessary lifestyles,

but just pure joy. And if I can find that passion, then I think I'd be happy. So to me, like, I think I look at it the same way as you do is like, maybe that passion isn't sparking as early as it did in me, but when it does come, it might be even more powerful. Yeah. So I think that this is actually materially more important. It's fascinating to me that you found it at a young age. Okay. It's rare. And it takes such a long time to work on mastering anything that that's one of the reasons that when you're in your twenties and you're in your prime, that you really have a command because physiologically you're on point,

psychologically, you know, you're starting, you're actually right before age 25, you know, or right around age 25 is when judgment starts to kick in. You know, that part of the brain really starts to formalize the prefrontal cortex, but we can put that aside for a minute. But so that's one of the reasons that the 20s are really interesting, but you need 10, 15, 20 years prior to that to have a deep command with a deliberate practice approach, you know, to, to arrive. And there's no overnight successes. Those guys are like really, I don't know, mythical, you know, humans. But all that being said is I think what you're saying is right on line, which is no matter what age, it's not the thing. Well, wave me off if you like this or not. It's not the thing that gives passion. It's your ability to bring passion to anything that I find is part of mastering life.

And so it just is easy for you for skiing. It was easy for you at skiing. And I'm wondering if you're able to sustain or bring that passion into parenting, into, you know, being a good spouse, into business, into whatever, whatever, whatever that you're doing. Yeah. I think I've been able to like figure out how to tap into that because, um, I look at it with my son being born and this is something completely foreign to me. It's been, it's foreign to my lifestyle and everything I do. And I know how to set goals for myself and know how to tap into something that will be like, if this is your goal, which is to raise a good son, to be a good father, then this is how you're going to tap into that passion to create that and to,

to wake up at three in the morning and feed him and then wake up two hours later to feed him again. And to, to be there for your wife at all times. I think that's been almost one, something I've learned through this whole process is how to kind of like almost like bring that passion out, even if it's not even there and figure out that there's this process to it. Sure. Like to me, like being a professional skier and being a skier, that was something that just like rose up inside me in a uniquely natural way, something that was completely unpredictable. But through this process of becoming a professional and getting to the level I've been lucky enough to get to,

I've realized there's been a process to this and all these processes have helped me learn how to be a better person. I quite often will say the mountains are a mirror and the mountains aren't exactly the individual challenge. They're just a way to challenge yourself and to learn about yourself. I love that. I think that that's some of the most important relationships we have, hold a mirror up to us, whether that's our spouses or people of wisdom or friends, they hold a mirror up and your relationship with the mountain also does that for you. And so I think it's an important note to also, so you've got the mountain, who else holds a mirror up to you? And also the other kind of side of this is who are you privileged enough to hold a mirror up to as well, but who holds a mirror up to you

besides the mountain? I would definitely say my wife. And this is something I have a theory when it comes to relationships. And the part of it is that my wife is not like a facsimile of me. Quite often in relationships, I think people look for like persons and people that share everything. And sure, my wife, we share passion in outdoor sports and skiing and surfing and doing stuff. And we have these kind of common bonds, but also we're in many ways opposite. And she challenges me. She challenges me in ways that I didn't know I needed to be challenged. And having that kind of almost, I wouldn't say this yin to the yang kind of relationship in a certain way has made our relationship incredibly strong now that we've been together for 15 years. And I feel like it continually gets better over those

15 years. And it's, she's held a mirror up to me and showed me my own weaknesses, um, and showed me my own strengths. And so it's, it having someone that you partner with for your life that challenges you, I think is incredibly important in a good, healthy relationship. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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where there is physical risk involved that you must become honest with yourself. And the honesty is, and I say must, I don't use that word often, but because if you're not honest, you don't get to be around it very often. Something can go terribly wrong. Many things can go terribly wrong. So when it, first of all, before I double click,

do you agree with that idea that you have a sense that you are able to be honest with yourself? 100%. I think I look at action sports, otherwise known as extreme sports. Sports quite often the most talented have a unique ability to have a conversation with themselves and be honest with themselves in a way that is very open because you're dealing with such heavy risk at times. You are dealing with life and death situations and you're kind of at times laying it all on the line. So being able to make the correct decision in that moment means like really, really high self-awareness. And I think I've done well in action sports because of my ability to deal with fear and deal with risk. Okay. So let's use your craft as a way to better understand honesty, being an honest human. And then let's slide it into relationships,

but let's use your craft first. And because at the top of a line, and I'm hoping you can tell a story here, at the top of a line, it's just you looking down a pitch where you have to assess in an honest way, if you have what it takes to be able to do something that maybe has never been done before, or very few have traveled it. Can you, can you maybe use the most quote unquote, the most insane line ever, um, the

crack that, you know, that you were able to, to navigate? Can you maybe tell a story about that line about your experience? Yeah. I mean, these, those moments in that line, the crack, which went crazy viral and, you know, was probably the most impactful line I've ever skied. And one of the scariest lines I've ever skied with consequences that were incredibly high. Any mistake would have potentially been the worst. And I always think back to standing on top of that line. Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm going to totally interrupt the flow.

Yeah. Because I want to set the scene. Where is it? Okay. You know, why this line? What attracted you to want to do this? There's so much that I want to pay attention to before we get to the top of the line, but when you're probably your knees, I'm guessing we're rattling,

but I don't know, you know, but let's, let's pause there on that. So where is it? Why this line? What did it take to get there? So this line is probably the most wild natural feature I've ever seen in my life. It is a mountain that looked like it got cut in half with a buzzsaw with a little tiny crevice filled with snow down almost 2000 feet of this entire rock mountain. So it's all cliff face and then just one shoot that goes through that, you know, at narrowest was about three feet wide and at widest about six feet wide. It was probably, you know, the upper pitches were in the 65 degrees where it was kind of like when I pushed off, it was almost vertical and kind of free falling. And then the rest was at, you know, 45 to 50 degrees. So it was this line that's just one of the most insane things I've ever seen. And the thing was, I had a big intention to ski that line that had been developing in many years prior. Um, you know, I had realized as a, as a skier,

what my strengths were and my strengths were, were speed and making precision turns at speed. And it started from being a Alpine ski racer and being, uh, excelling at downhill racing, which is, you know, going speeds of 90 mile, 90 plus miles an hour. And then to growing up at the ski resort, I did palisades, which used to be named another name that was an offensive term. And there was a lot of these mini shoots, and I would ski around with my buddies and we'd straight line through them, you know, shoot so narrow that you have to turn your shoulders to get through them while going 45 miles an hour. And I started to kind of feel this like something inside me that really enjoyed this and something that I knew that I really excelled on it.

And, um, I was actually out with Jeremy Jones once and we were skied this, uh, this very famous line called terminal cancer, Nevada. And we rode it together and rode it really fast. And I just remember having the most incredible sensation through that and just thinking, like, I got to find what I called it, like the man version of that line, the big boy version of the line in Alaska where, you know, the epicenter of skiing is the proving grounds for backcountry skiing. And so I spent five, six years looking for that line specifically. And when I did finally spot that line, it was just like, that that's it. That's the line. But I didn't know, obviously I

was going to ski it at that point. At that point it was like, okay, now we're in the research phase and we're going to try and figure out, is this line actually is skiable. Now, how did you spot it? Was this you traveling around and looking for lines or was this somebody else hit it? And you're like, that's the one I want to, you know, challenge myself with. It was flying around in a helicopter and just looking out the window in a zone I actually had been in before, but it was such a small and hard to see line that I hadn't seen it. And all of a sudden, I just kind of was looking with the intention of trying to find some line like this. Because in the years prior to going up to Alaska, I was kind of looking for this style of line. And you need to go

to specific zones. If you know kind of geography and you know snow packs and you need to go to specific zones if you know kind of geography and you know snow packs you have to go to a very specific place and so we were actually in that kind of area knowing that maybe this kind of line will will show itself and i just it was like a blip of a second because the helicopter is going by all you see is rock face and then in a half second you would just see a streak of white through it. And then that streak of white was gone again. So, and I just kind of, it was a flash. And I was like, what was that? And I asked the helicopter pilot to drop me off near the top. The other crew went off to go film some other lines. And I just got dropped off by myself. Cause I, I was like, I need to go do some research on this

line. As I walked down to it, it was actually a really sketchy kind of down climb. You know, it was 45 to 50 degree slope hanging over like three, 400 feet of cliff to get to it. And I got down to the top of it and it was just looked down and it was like, this is it. This is the line. And at that moment, then I started having to figure out, okay, how are you going to skis this? Are you going to be able to skis this? What is the risk factor on here? What kind of conditions do you need this in and trying to put together the puzzle piece? And at that point, it was actually about two weeks before I actually skied it. When I first spotted it. Um, we waited for some new snow

to come in to recode it. And in those two weeks, I mean, I think I went through my entire life's journey to get to that point to kind of understand is this like, is this line skiable? Is this, is this what you're looking for? Can you do this? Can you survive this? And I skied that line probably two, 3000 times in my head before I stepped foot on it the second time. Um, it was, uh, a long mental journey in those two weeks. Okay. So there's two parts, right? There's exploring. Is this a risk that I'm wanting to take, willing to take? You know, it's one thing to talk about it and it's really exciting to talk about it for years.

Like I want to find a line. I want to find a line. You know, I'm that person, right? And then when you actually find it, it's like, oh, wait a minute. So, and then I hear you talk about the rehearsal bit, you know, the preparation. So can we separate those out for just a minute, which is once you found it and you saw that it might be doable again, it's, it's a line of consequence. How do, how do you, cause this is like the, the process of risk-taking right.

That I want to get to, and we're not even at the top of the line yet but yeah how do you sort that out is a conversation with yourself is it a conversation with your wife um both like how do you how do you get inside of am i going to do this i'm going to take this risk i think it's just uniquely personal um you can talk about it with other people, but it's something that you need to know inside yourself so deeply and need to make that decision for yourself. And you need to, in my opinion, you have to separate all the outside influences. when you're made a job out of your sport like I did and people people value risk taking they they want to see it and so you need to get that out of your head and factor in for yourself like your journey to get to that point and can you do this you need to I think almost go into like a meditative style state of real self-analysis and everything that's led up to that point to, to think about, can you do this? Because I look at risk, not necessarily as like,

if I drop into this line, am I going to die? It's like, that is not the factor you want to be thinking about. It's more the factor of like, what has my life led up to this point so that I can do this safely? Um, you know, I, I look at, uh, athletes like ourselves and, and, you know, action sports athletes as just uniquely ability, the like uniquely able to have this unbelievable self-awareness when it comes to their own risk taking. And I also think most people think we're absolutely nuts, but internally we think we're actually pretty cautious because we're taking weeks and analyzing our entire life to that moment

to feel like, can I do this line? It's not even a question as, is it worth the risk? It's like, can I do this safely is more of the thing. Um, and the factor on risk is if that question mark of being that, I don't know if I can do this, if that question mark is looming too large, then it isn't worth the risk. If you're feeling like, no, like everything checking off to this point i'm looking at my downhill ski racing career every line i've ever skied that's similar to this my 10 years of alaska heli skiing um everything leading to this point has led me to this place and all i need to do is turn it up five percent

and then i'll be able to ski this line um It isn't a leap of like we're going from I don't know if I can ski this and 100 percent. OK, I'm just going to try it. Like I look at risk taking as this baby step. You just keep working your way slowly and slowly and slowly. It's like if you're running to a cliff edge, you know, if if you're going to be sprinting to that cliff edge, that's a lot of unnecessary risk. But if you inch your feet up inch by inch and take five hours, you're going to get very comfortable with your surroundings. You're going to get very comfortable with that edge and you're going to be able to go up to it and hang your toes over it. I kind of look at the same process. It was this years of baby steps to

get to that point where it didn't feel like that much risk to me and which does lead me to what i was feeling at top okay and all right beautiful and so you hit on awareness and then you hit on reference points so having reference points that are real incredible and then using those reference points as multi-directional so it's not just like I've seen skied something like this once, but I've done this type of racing and skiing and this type of climbing and this type of whatever, like there's multiple reference points. And then you're trying to toggle up 5%. I hear that. And then I also go, I don't know if I know what 5% is, you know, um, is this like, is this an intuitive calibration that you have? Like, how do you figure the 5% out?

I think I figured it out by what I was feeling when I stood on top of that line. Um, I, as I was getting prepared and finally made the decision like this, I can ski this line and I can do it safely. When I stood on top of it and like tips are over the edge and I'm planning it out and visualizing it, I was looking to my left and there's the one of the cameramen there is a close friend. I've spent years in the mountains with him, a decade in the mountains with him, and I could tell he was super nervous and we usually joke around about lines together and we're kind of, well, we'll be back and forth, uh, giving each other like just flack and grief and just joking around. And I could tell he was like really, really nervous for the very first time. And I looked at him and I was like, why are you nervous? Like I got this. And I remember standing up top and being in the most Zen, like calm state I've ever been and I just was like

it was just full confidence and that was that just little bit of five percent sure I didn't know what it was going to be like to actually ski that line but standing on top of it and looking at a line with fatal consequences and a line that like never been skied like that before it wasn't a question mark in my mind that I was going to be able to do this. And that reflected in just being in this like very, very calm state. Um, I even reflected back to that calm states of being, when I was a downhill ski racer, when I was calm, when it was, when I was doing the best. And I remember thinking that moment at being like, you're so calm right now. You're not scared at all. That's good. That's

you're in the perfect mental state. Yeah. Okay. So oftentimes I think it's a misnomer that you just send it. You know, there's some, there's some moments that you've sent it. Yeah, of course. You've, you've hocked over something that you're like, okay, let's see how it goes. But on But on these types of moments, like yourself, other best in the world at mastering risk-taking, mastering calm, mastering access to their body's intelligence, right? The craft, if you will, is that if they have too much adrenaline, it's a pass. And so I think that that's a bit of a misnomer is that these are adrenaline junkies. So do you nod your head to like, yeah, I'm not an adrenaline junkie? Or do you go, no, dude, I'm such an adrenaline junkie. But in these moments, I must have command over my neurochemistry. I can tell you I've never stood on top of a line or gone out before the day and thinking like, man, I can't wait to get that adrenaline at the end of the day. It's never been a factor. Sure, it feels really good and you have these flood of emotions that

go through you and these chemicals go through you and that's an amazing feeling, but never have I gone out there with the intention that I want to have that feeling at the end of the day. In fact, quite often, like you're saying, I hate being scared. I really do not like it. And the way I'm not scared and why I can stand on top of that line is that process to get me to that point. So it does feel like it's only turning it up 5%. And having that full blooded confidence, that's just like oozing through every muscle and every vein and just kind of just feels like you were supposed to be there at that moment. That's when you don't have fear.

And that's when you know that you're able to do something like this. So that it doesn't mean you don't have fear. It just means that you have an ability to be fully present. Yes. Okay. So, so let's go to the awareness bit. Now we tackled the 5% as a calibration tool. And what's unique about your 5% calibration is that, um, it's a 5% of physical consequence where your life and limbs could be deeply compromised if that 5% estimation is off. Totally. Okay.

Which is not what most people don't deal with that. Most people's risk is about looking bad or playing a financial bet or those are vulnerability to be hurt. Those are most of the risks. So that's why I want to, I want to map your risk insights onto what most people do for risk in their lives. But on the awareness bit, how do you build the awareness to be, um, to be clear with your inner dialogue, with your emotions, with, you know, awareness of like how you're experiencing yourself and how the unfolding

environment around you is taking place. Like what are your practices to build awareness? I think it's just been built over time and it's built because of the mountains, because they make you face yourself quite often. I talk about in the mountains quite often. Some of my biggest lessons I've had have dealt with ego and the mountains will always be more, will be bigger, will be more forceful and will have dominance over you. You are small compared to the mountains. They are wild, dangerous place. And

in, in these moments, when you, when you have too much ego, you're going to get slapped down by the mountains. And I look at all these moments through my life and all these tiny learning lessons along the way as the ability to create that awareness and understand it. Um, it's through failure and it's through success. I, you know, I, I look at moments where I have hurt myself horribly. Like I look at a moment when I was in, uh, British Columbia and I was with the, the filmer that was next to me and I had this just bravado to me because the year and the year before I've been going so well, I, I couldn't not land at anything. Like I was just landing on my feet off every line off every cliff,

just like I am having this confidence. Like I am the best skier in the world. I can do anything. And I remember this moment where I stood on top of this line and it was all the other guys in the crew were like, dude, that line is gnarly. And I'm like, I got it. And I remember having this moment where I stood on top and I had this fear bubbling up inside me. And I was like, what is this? Isn't this isn't sums off. And I was like, yeah, you got it.

You're good. And as I dropped in, I didn't go into that Zen flow state. And I was still just kind of like buzzing and still having like a really like chaotic discussion in my head about this line. And I wasn't present at all. And I ended up flying off this cliff and it was about a 90 foot cliff and I landed on rock off of it. And I was very close to dying off of it. And I remember that lesson. Luckily, I did not, but I, I had this feeling

like your body, something was telling you that this was off and you were way too confident. You had way too much ego to, to do a line like that. And it was a huge reflection point as, you know, sitting there injured for the next six, eight months and having this like deep self-awareness of being like, like that feeling you, if you have that feeling, you need to turn around, you need to back off because there's something inside you saying you are not supposed to do that line. And so those moments are the thing that build up this kind of this deep self-awareness and you're hoping along the way you don't kill yourself in the process

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Majority came back. It was like in the upper 80%. No, but it can be, it's not hostile upper 80%. No, but it can be. It's not hostile with the intent to harm, but it can be. And so your environment, is it hostile? like the game of football is dangerous. Yes, there is risk that you're going to be taking. But if I look at my career path and everything that's gone through it, like I'm trying to navigate in between that hostility. And ultimately, if you're making the right decisions, if you are out there with the right intentions, like, no, it's not going to be hostile because I don't come away from the mountains at the end of the day thinking like, oh my God, I just got out of a riot and I'm just happy to be home and on dry land and whatnot. You feel empowered and you feel like this was a beautiful experience, not a violent experience.

So it shares that. Okay. So much that you're dropping in here. And let me, let me add this bit here, which is one of the coaches says, you know, uh, he answered no. And he affirmed in his language that, um, there are moments when it's hostile. So you need to pay attention and to be fully embodied in what you're doing. And he says, you know, Mike, I think the most dangerous words that I've heard a footballer say, I got this. He says, it's just, there's too much. And I heard you say that in two different contexts, one in a Zen state, you're like, dude, you looked out to your trusted partner, you know, your, your, uh, your filmer and, and his eyes were big. His pupils were like changed and his heart was pulsing, and you're picking up all these micro expressions from him. But in the Zen state, you're like,

no, I'm actually good. And I heard you in another one when your heart was pumping and you're like, no, push that down. I'm good. And so it's not the word, it's the relationship with it. It's not the phrase. It's the relationship with the challenge. Are you being honest with, I feel I am in command now. So before you go wild on this, because this is the part that I'm really fascinated by this thin line between confidence, like I can, and listening to all the signals that you have bubbling from within that are fear-based signals, because your brain is not supposed to be doing these things. It's supposed to put you in a state of survival. And this is purposely, you have purposely put

yourself in a state of danger. So how does that thin line between confidence and working with the signals that are happening, both in your case, from your external trusted source, your partner, and from your internal activation, like how do you manage all of this? And I'm humbly asking one of the best in the world, how you manage this? You know, I think it is a question I'm still trying to answer. Damn it. Cody, come on. I know.

It's something that is, you know, to describe it, it was like, to describe the feeling I had on the line where I nearly killed myself and then the line that I had great success on both having equal danger factor, it is something that is just internal. And when we're talking about honesty, that first line where I landed on rocks, like I wasn't being honest with myself. I wasn't listening to myself. I was squashing it, thinking like, you got this.

You're, you know, telling yourself lies, essentially. You're telling yourself that, you know, all these, you're looking at the wrong signals to describe to yourself, like, I can do this line. And so that's where, when you're standing on top of a line like the crack and you're feeling this just like, it's a calm confidence and a calm, this built up just something so unique that there's no question that you're not going to do it. Whereas the question that I heard on top of the line where I really hurt myself on, that was a big question.

And I just decided to ignore that question. But moving forward, and this is why I'm still so passionate about the mountains and so passionate about skiing is like, I feel like I'm still trying to figure this out and still trying to process it because I deal with fear on a weekly basis and deal with life-threatening situations all the time. And, you know, as you grow up and as you have these experiences, it's not linear that you're going to continually make yourself safer and make the correct decision. You have to kind of go back and forth and back and forth and learn your environment and learn yourself to make the correct decision so that you can come home at the end of the day. It's something that I've been fascinated with my whole life because I don't know why instinctually I feel

drawn to these risks. I don't know why I sit there and think about mountains that have so much risk and it has nothing to do with external factors. I just feel like I need to go try that. I need to go do that. I don't get, Cody, I don't get from you that you're working for notches on your belt. I don't get that. It feels much more contemplative, more thoughtful, more kind of life arcing purpose in your approach here. And let me see if I can map something on really quickly is that like surfing was my first sport and certainly had some experience in the back country. I love the back country for skiing, but not to your level. So let's be very clear. But my wife would often say after like coming back from a trip or something like, or even a day, you know, if, if we're, we're doing something together and she'll say like, how was it for you? And I'll, my reflection was, yeah, it was a good day. You know, I got scared. And so it's not like I'm setting out to go get scared, but it is, there's a,

it's like this forcing function to be honest. And then this is the part I'm trying to sort out is, so the mountain is the mirror for you. Surfing has been that place for me. And it is a, I relish in the environments where purity is required. And in that purity, that honesty, I want to translate those practices and experiences into everyday living. So at the end of the day, I want to know, was I an honest man? And what does that mean? Not that I tell the truth. That's important. But did I honestly bring me into the life

experiences that I had in my most vulnerable, honest way? And so does that, I'm sorting this out with you right now. I think about it a lot, but do you have any relationship to what I just said that feels familiar to you or does it feel like it's um no dude you're on a different plane I would say like I think you have such a strong understanding of the mind than in what you do in your career that you probably see those things easier than I would say like you what you're saying to me is almost more in the enlightening way. It's like, yeah, is what I've done a way to kind of figure out this myself? And I do think quite often I put myself out there because I want to know who I really am at the deepest, deepest core. And I think through all these challenges and through putting all, you know, put it going all in, putting it all the marbles on the table,

like whatever analogy you want to say, but when your life is on the line, you really figure out who you are in that moment. And I don't say like, it's not this like attraction to it that like, Ooh, I want to go do that. Or I need to figure out that it's just this like attraction to it that like, Ooh, I want to go do that. Or I need to figure out that it's just almost like putting yourself in these places. You'll end up finding out about it. So when I come home from the mountains, like, yeah, I continually have a conversation about, did I make the right decision? Was I in the right mind space? All these kinds of factors, but maybe not in the level that you brought up, which is an interesting way to kind of think about it. When you're in those moments, do you have a

meditation practice? I wouldn't say in the way that we typically think of meditation, sitting down, closing your eyes, but I do think I do kind of have a meditative process. It was something from a young age I was always able to just do where I could clear my head really, really easily and live in that moment. So I do think I meditate, but just in a very aware, moving through the day kind of state. I love that. I'm going to definitely pull on that thread because the reason I was asking is because I can also find in moments of danger and consequence, I find that experience I was talking about about being honest as a forcing function, I also find it when I'm quiet. Because if, it's, you know, if you're really there with yourself, like,

you know, when you're bullshitting or not, you know, so like, I find that to be incredibly, um, some people say, oh, it's just so hard to get quiet. Yeah. And I'm so busy. Yeah. But I think that the real risk is when you face yourself and that's what people, this is why mindfulness meditation, I think is at the core so hard is because you're, you're going to become naked and you might not like, you know, what it feels like because you can be dressing up in the emperor's clothes for so long. So, um, that being said, how do you clear to find that sense of stillness and quiet and space to be present? I think it's by putting yourself in these moments. That's where I find this clearness is when I'm climbing a line that is very steep, very exposed, has fatal consequence.

There's a lot of factors and decisions that you're making at that point. I will often go into the state where it's not this state of just like complete, just there's nothing in your brain, but it's this complete focus and there's nothing else in the world. But you're also drawing back onto a lot of human experiences that you've had. You're drawing back on your emotions like I feel like in these moments that were everything is on the line and you you kind of can just feel this every ounce of hormones that are flowing through you these endorphins these these sensations these motivations they just kind of all start to come out and you do have to listen to yourself and you have to listen to yourself.

And you have to be in that moment and just think about like, okay, what is going on inside me in relation to the world around me. And it's a it's a state of like, it's a state of presence that I haven't found in any other way, really. And I think to get there voluntarily is the the strongest form, but I just find those moments in the mountains quite often. What are you afraid of? I am afraid of... It's hard to say in terms of it's like, I'm afraid of that which I do not know. And if I'm, let's say, putting it in the realm of the mountains, if I'm in the mountains going up something that I've done no research on, that I have no prior experience of, that I have nothing to draw from, then I'm scared.

And I'm very scared. And it's hard to actually overcome that fear because there's no way to draw back on anything to build that point that says, no, you should be here right now. So when it is something that I am unfamiliar with, that's when I feel fear. But what I try to do in my life and in everything I do is to get very familiar with it. I have like a kind of uniquely obsessive personality and a lot of my friends and my wife says this, like if I find something that is interest me, I go deep. I go very, very deep. I will read every book and I will read every blog, watch every video. I will try and experience this little

thing in as many ways possible so that I understand that which I'm doing. And so I think that's where it's like not knowing something is almost my biggest fear. Yeah, I was gonna double click on that because there's a meta here, right? Which is you don't know, nor do I basically know what I'm about to say. So you and I have not been in this moment before. And so by default, we do not know. So how do you do in these types of moments where one of your great fears is not knowing, but this moment is completely engrossed with the unknown. It's just continually trying to understand and draw from experience and have that

in most situations, the fear of failure and actually failing, the fear of failure and actually failing the consequences of failure are minor they're absolutely nothing so if well they are but but to see this is i want to sorry to interrupt you but yeah this is actually not the case for most people is because their ego their identity is so big and so fragile that it is potentially exposed in even conversations, right? When they go on stage, it's like heightened a conversation, you know, to give a speech or to raise their hand in a boardroom or to walk across the, you know, the dance floor when you're in seventh grade and ask somebody to dance. Like there's this, there's a great risk to identity or slash ego.

And you're saying, no, no, listen, my, I don't, my ego is not at risk because it's small and it's actually, I have a rather healthy relationship with myself that I actually don't feel that that's at risk. Is that fair to say? A hundred percent. I feel like I've been able to have these battles with ego in the mountains and the mountains have showed me my own ego and trying to impart my ego on the mountains and the mountains just going no and slapping me down that it's been able to but just disregard it when I need it to be disregarded. And so in these moments when I've gotten to, you know, public speaking where everyone's nervous when you're getting out there, like it doesn't feel consequential because my ego has already been slapped down so many times before by forces that are so much more powerful than the judgment of other humans that if I bomb on stage, I know like, ah, that was one day, whatever next day.

And it's this, the mountains have shown me, I don't know, this, this way of being able to not make my ego fragile and be honest and be open and be not scared of what people think of me. And I think it's, you know, every time I've gone through that, it's a uniquely freeing sensation to not be kind of dictated and judged and, and feel captured by your own ego. Um, you know, ego, I think is important to success because you do have to be driven. And I think ego can be that unique force. But then there's a comes a time where it tips over the edge and it will destroy you. And that's where I've seen the mountains been able to kind of check it over and over and over till this point and where

I feel in my life like I am very content and I really truly don't care what people think of me because it's not a factor in the way I see myself I've been able to see myself in its deepest most unique ways by putting myself in these situations in the mountains that nobody can understand. And I don't have to show anyone that because to me, knowing it for myself is what's allowed me to be free from these trappings and this fragility. That is... there's so much i want to say because the when i was 15 you know one of the really important parts of me not being able to get free you know and to really experience life as i was over indexed on what my biggest dragon was my dragon was well do i fit? Where do I belong? You know, what do they think of me? It was my dragon.

And then when you meet a bigger dragon, yours is the mountain, right? The crack, if you will. When you meet a bigger dragon, you go, oh, wait, hold on. That thing I thought was a dragon is actually like a little pup. You know, it's like a little baby dragon. It's not the big nasty thing. Like the big nasty thing for me now is it's not what other people think of me. And I'm not saying I'm immune to it, but it's not a big dragon. The big dragon is like,

what am I doing? Like, what am I doing with my life? And so am I living in an honest way towards potential? And so let's kind of map that on for you. Like what is the big fear for you? Well, at first I kind of want to say like, I have a similar path as you, like I was an only child. I didn't feel like I kind of fit in very well. Um, I was always kind of moving around. So I never had like a solid, solid friend group. And I think I looked at success and skiing as a way to be praised and to be to feel accepted when I was young even though I still had this like passion that was truly driving me to the sport there was a unique thing where it was like I wanted to be accepted by the professionals I admired by my peers by these people I didn't feel like I fit in with.

But it's funny because in that process, then you go into the mountains and then you do see those people are like a small dragon. The big dragon is these mountains. And it's through that process of being in the mountains and doing what I do has been, it's almost separated me from those young desires. And now, like, even when at points when I started to feel like I wasn't doing well in my career, and maybe wasn't going to be what I had dreamed about, I still felt comfort because I realized, like you said, there's bigger dragons out there. And these dragons of social acceptance, of ego, of identity, they're not nearly as important to what I'm feeling deep inside my soul while I'm out in the mountains. So what is your framework for life after physical death? Because you dance with physical death and you are in the, um, you dance with physical death, um, and physical

injury more than most people dance with it. Although some would say, listen, if you look at the stats, um, you know, driving a car is really dangerous, you know, yes. You know, uh, accidental deaths are really dangerous. Yes. Um, cancer. Yes. Diabetes. You know, there's, there's lots of ways that um the top deaths okay but you purposely dance with physical harm so what happens after you physically um are no longer here um i have no idea and it almost doesn't necessarily bother me, whatever happens. I think we go into the ground and we're part of this world. Our bodies are part of this world and we will continue to go on as whether, you know, we're just earth't, I I'm not scared of the other side. I don't need life to continue to go on, on that other side. I really, really do want to keep living. And that's the, the, the, the challenge of what I do. And one of the things like what you said is, um, you know,

we talk about car accidents. Driving a car is more dangerous. Well, I've lost one friend to a car accident. I've lost 20-plus friends to mountain sports. So, I mean, it is a lot bigger of a risk is what we do. But when it comes to actual death, like individually, it doesn't – it's whatever. It doesn't necessarily have a factor. What does have a factor is my community, is my family. Leaving people behind because I've witnessed that.

I've witnessed fathers, husbands, sons die in these mountain sports. And it's traumatic, not for the people that are gone, but for everyone else that is left there. And that is my unique drive to stay here. My own son now, my wife, my family, that is truly what keeps me wanting to come home at the end of the day. Sure, in the moment, yes, you are fighting for survival and you will do everything to survive. But those external factors of the people around you, that's, I don't know, that's what I don't want to leave. How do you describe the good life? What is the good life? Just it's being content. It's being like just this deep inside you contentment, like no matter what happens, what challenges you go through, knowing that you'll be okay and you'll be happy. And it isn't derived from successes.

It isn't derived from these kind of physical real world things that we create. It is something that is just uniquely inside you where you're just, you're comfortable, you're happy, you're, you're around people that you love. Um, it is, it's, it's not even happiness. That's why I say contentment, because it's just kind of deep inside you that you're just, you're comfortable. And you're hitting on, you're talking about the good life, and then you also have hinted at the dark side. There's at least two parts of the dark side I'd love to hear from you

until we go back to the crack, which I still want to go back there. And the dark side being this rabbit hole that you go into. Because when we rabbit hole, we tend to gate out things that don't fit in that rabbit hole, which sometimes is relationships and sometimes it's like being connected to other people. So I'm wondering if there's a dark side there. And then you also talked about losing so many friends. And have you, as maybe a poignant story, have you had to pack down any of your friends gear? I haven't been there for an actual death with a friend, so I haven't had to go through that trauma. Some of my friends have done it multiple times over and it's a uniquely traumatic experience.

Maybe describe to some folks what maybe I did a shorthand there, but maybe describe what we're talking about. It's rolling up to your buddy who just your partner, the person you just did something with and they're dead. And having to dig them out of an avalanche or collect their belongings and bring it down the mountain. I I've seen friends go through it. My wife went through it. Um, it's, it's very, it's something that you don't wish on anybody because even the strongest people that are in this sport are, will be changed forever with it it when you witness death right in front of you. For me, what I think about the dark side of this sport, it is obviously death and it is loss. And it's that sense of the loss within the community and your family. But a lot of it has to do with these sports and what we do.

It's a uniquely selfish pursuit. And that's something I've battled with for a long time, because one of the things as much as we've been glorifying this like unique look at yourself through this mountain, you're like, well, that's uniquely selfish. And it is very just inward facing. And it's not doing much for the world around you. So one of the things I've tried to find as I've grown older is that balance between a pursuit that is at its core selfish while balancing that with trying to be a good person to other people, being a good community member, being not selfish to your family. It is something that is taking me a long time to learn, but I realized the value of not being selfish is what's keeping me here and continuing to make good decisions and trying to be a better family member, a better community

member, a better friend, like all these things. And it's almost by going so deep on the selfish side that you realize like you've gotten away from what I think a lot of being a human is, is our social structures and our communities. We're kind of a tribal kind of being and we like the feeling of other people. And when you're going off on the deep end, going so deep into yourself, that's not necessarily good for what's around you, for the world around you. So that's almost in this process

that I've kind of been able to find that, that like, wait a minute, like, no, this isn't just about you. This is about everyone else around you as well. How do you say goodbye to your wife and now your son when maybe you haven't had the chance to do it with your son yet? Um, but how, how let's, let's stay with your wife for a second and maybe your mom, you know, and dad, but like, how do you say goodbye? Well, he, I never feel like I'm needing to say goodbye because I know I'm going to return. Like that's the feeling. Like honestly, if I had that sensation of like I'm going out on this expedition or this adventure and I feel like I need to say goodbye, then I then I shouldn turn around. Like if I have that feeling like this might be the last time I see you, then don't go.

I need to be able to have that feeling like this is that 5% leap that I talked about with the crack. Like it needs to be like, yeah, of course we're going to be taking risk. But there are ways to mitigate that. There are ways to avoid that. And there's ways to be smart, to be patient, to be uniquely in tune with yourself, to, to make sure that you come home at the end of the day. So I, I just don't feel like I've ever had to say goodbye.

I mean, denial is pretty amazing, dude. You're going out to do something really dangerous and you're like, no, no, no, I'll be back. I mean, I really, I understand it. And I understand the value in that. I guess there's another level to it, which is like, have you been in a scenario where you've packed up to go on an adventure and your relationship has been unsettled? Or there's been some little thing that pops up right before you go where it's like, oh gosh, this is not how I wanted to leave. And you know, have you had those where you're going to be remote for two weeks, two months, and you're leaving on a note that's like, oh.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I wouldn't say it happens in the terms of like, hey, we're going on a Himalayan expedition and I'm going to just not go. It goes into the decisions that you're making on that day, the decisions of what you're doing in the moment. And then if you're feeling that hesitancy, then I listen to that hesitancy and I back off. And people don't see that quite often in what we do as professional skiers. We, they, they tend to see the successes over and over and over. They see the crack and they're like, wow, that's amazing. And they don't see the three other lines you turned around on that day or the, the trip the year before where you didn't ski anything. Cause you just didn't quite feel it for some reason. So no, I think you're, you're listening to that all the time. And if you're not listening to that, then you, you're putting yourself in that much more danger where saying goodbye is something that you're going to feel like you needed to do. And I don't ever want to have that feeling.

So you're describing something very similar. Alex Anold was on the podcast as well, which I know you're friends with. And you just did a mission with him recently. Can you maybe talk about some of that mission before we go back to the crack, which is, um, you know, you overheated and, uh, how you, how you navigated that and how maybe he showed up with you in that experience. And for those who are not familiar, Alex is, I think one of the most significant athletes of our time based on what he's done, which is climbing El Cap. And he's done many other things, but famously known right now for climbing El Cap without any assistance. No ropes, just his hands, his feet, his head.

It's 3,000 square sheer feet of granite. If you're not familiar with Alex Honnold, um, or you probably need to come out of your own cave because he's, he's extraordinary. So, but, so just as a, uh, you and him are on an expedition or you're doing a thing, uh, maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Yeah. And so I, I agree with you. I think Alex is one of the most unique athletes in the world. I, we talk about like clutch and you generally think of like, who's a clutch athlete? Oh, it's that guy that can sink a three pointer, um, with no time on the clock or it's the Tom Brady. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you're like, yeah, but imagine being

able to have to grip on half a golf ball with your life on the line. That's clutch. His, his mental power is, I think on a different level. Um, but I am lucky enough to be friends with them and we've had some of these talks before. And we did an adventure last year where we were trying to ride our bikes from the lowest point to the base of Mount Whitney to then climb and ski Mount Whitney. And I think what, what happened was I ended up getting heat stroke and I look back at that and go like, yeah, because you're not experienced with biking in the desert, of course. And you put yourself in serious risk because you were making a a hundred percent leap as opposed to a 5% leap. You know, it was, it was that just kind of like, Oh no, that's the easy part. We're

focused on the mountain. That's a challenging part. Um so, yeah, I overheated. I got heat stroke. Luckily, you know, we had the safety parameters in place with a van, with ice, with, you know, a support team there. So nothing bad happened. But I look at that experience and be like, yeah, of course, like, you know how to make decisions in the mountains. You know how to, you know, look at snow from a mile away and know exactly how it's going to feel under your foot because you've spent so much time in the snow. But how much time have you spent in Death Valley? Zero. That was my first time ever there. So, of course, I'm going to have some lack of experience with that and not knowing that you have to acclimatize to heat. And Alex, who lives in Vegas, is acclimatized to heat and not altitude. And all I was thinking about was the altitude for him and not thinking, hey, I've been, you know, living in below freezing temperatures all winter and go jump in 95 degree heat and try and bike 135 miles. It was one of those like non-consequential. It could have been consequentialential but just dumb decisions that make me reflect back and be like yeah you just didn't evaluate it properly so go back let's use that example and then use the example of when you're skiing a line and you felt that thing and you

talked yourself through it this is that fine line that i i would I do want to get better at, which is like knowing when to ignore the internal signals because they're false. They are patterns, but they're not actually accurate. Can you walk through a time in the mind space that you're in where you're having a conversation with yourself as you're, as you're having a conversation with yourself as you're skiing a line or as you're about to ski a line where it is an internal civil war. There's a battle going on inside. Like in that chaotic style of way and there's just everything. And yeah, that conversation was on top of the line that I spoke about earlier where

I flew off the 80, 90 foot cliff and landed on, on rocks. Um, that was the full chaos in my mind, more, many sides of trying to battle with each other and not listening to the correct side. Um, and that's what led to that. And that's where I learned from that to, to know the, almost the tone of the conversation in my head and see who's conversing with each other and be like, look back and be like, okay, yeah, no, you're the correct side. It sounds weird because you feel so separate from yourself in these moments. You feel like there's this subconscious, there's this conscious, and then there's someone else observing your subconscious and your conscious's someone else observing your subconscious

and your conscious, while then also observing the natural world around you. I wouldn't say it's an out-of-body experience, but it kind of feels that way. If I could listen to it, what would I have heard? Well, let me give you an example of like what it feels like when you're successful. When I was on top of the crack, like looking down there, there's this confidence that's coming through you that is just the conversation going in my head is not a conversation that's going like, oh, what about that section? Oh, okay. Is that going to be a sketchy part? Is that, Oh, what about that snow? Is that a little funky? It's this conversation

where you look at the snow and go like, okay, that snow below my feet right now has a little bit of a skin to it. So when that skin comes in, you're going to have to edge a tiny bit harder because that's the sensation you're going to get. And you're going to want to, you want to adapt to that on the fly. You have this conversation where everything is centered around the success that you're going to have, not the question marks that lie in front of you. And that's what gives you kind of this, this, this feeling. And if, if you're sitting on top of that line and these questions keep popping up, then, then you need to back off. That's the way I see it now. If I have too many question marks, then I'm turning around. In the mountains these days, I say it takes 100 yeses to get up and down a mountain and takes one no to turn around. In that fashion, because you're right at the edge of risk on a regular basis, but it's very calculated and there's high certainty that you have command

of your mind and your body and your craft. There's variance in there for things to go wrong. Are you a risk taker or risk mitigator? I would say I'm a risk mitigator. Obviously, by putting yourself in these situations, you could be categorized as a risk taker. But I'm constantly looking for ways in these dangerous environments to mitigate that risk. It is a constant evaluation and observation of everything that's going around you to do everything to take that risk out of the equation. We talk about it when I'm climbing lines. And as I'm on this new project of trying to climb and ski the 50 classic ski descents of North America, like you put yourself

in danger for a lot longer period of time by climbing up the mountains. And there is kind of one risk I really don't like to take. And that's when we call overhead hazard. And that's when something like a serac, a big cornice, something that is just hanging above you and you have to climb under that, that is when you're taking ultimate chance. It is a full just gamble to that cornice, that serac, that glacier could just peel off at any moment. It's completely unpredictable. And that's actually a risk I'm not willing to take. And it's something that I will do everything in my power, even if it incorporates going a much harder, longer way, creating more gear, suffering worse, just to take that risk factor out so that I don't have this full gamble. I, you know, quite often a lot of prominent lines that climbers, alpinists and skiers will do will have overhead hazard.

And I've already told myself, like, not going to do it. Like, I look at like something like K2, incredible mountain, I would love to ski it. But there's so much overhead hazard, and there's so much just roll of the dice, I'm never going to do it. It's just not worth it for me. I want control of my situation. I want control of my surroundings. I want control of my surroundings. I want a way to mitigate that risk. And when I don't see a way around it, then I'm just not going to do it. In the path of getting better, that process of getting better, just in general, if someone's trying to be better as a leader or parent or an athlete,

your insights because of the critical nature of, you know, what could happen, how do you practice to get better? And what could be some takeaways that others could learn from the way you practice? It's practicing with intention. Like there's things that I will do even when I'm at the ski resort. If there's a certain kind of snow condition, I will get onto like a steep slope and think about, and all I have is like one turn to do on the ski resort. That's a steep kind of maybe icy turn. But then I try and think about that. What if there was 3000 feet of exposure below me? What if this was a fall

you die situation? And I will make that turn and think about it and be like, okay, that's what it's going to feel like. So I take them that moment and that memory and bring it to that situation when the consequences are real. Um, I find like the reason I think I don't need to journal is like I can draw back on so many unique experiences in my own skiing I don't know why it's just something that I have that whenever I'm in a moment the only moment I'm scared is when I can't draw back on an experience um to correlate it and so when I'm in these moments at a ski area quite often I'm thinking about like, how do I build these little micro experiences to prepare myself for the big experiences? So it's this constant kind of

testing myself, challenging myself in the smallest of ways without consequence to try and build up the memory bank for when it is real. So you're using your imagination out in the environment as well, not only kind of sitting cross-legged or, you know, thinking about things, but you're also creating scenarios in the environment using your imagination as if there was great consequence. So it's a forcing function for you to be sharp. Yeah. And to be familiar with like how you want to think prior to a sheer,

you know, whatever sheer that you're skiing up against. Definitely. Cool. Yeah. We kind of said it. Yep. No, that's it. You're on it.

Okay. If you could bottle up what you'd like to pass to the next generation, what would that be? I think my intention is this honesty, this kind of conversation. Like what I've done with this project, The 50, and what I've set out with the goals of filming it and putting on episodes is like, one of the things I almost wanted to do was that I felt people looked at me as a superhero, as a professional skier that could do things like the crack and was just fearless or, you know, all of these kinds of cliches about what we do. And I wanted to tear down that myth. I wanted to show people turning around. I wanted to show down that myth. I wanted to show people turning around. I

wanted to show people being scared. I wanted to show people that I'm, I'm human just like them. I've said it from the beginning of the project that there are skiers that are more talented, more bold, and I think more fit that could accomplish this goal of trying to ski all the 50 classic ski descents of North America far easier than me. Like I'm not as likely of a candidate to do it considering my experience that I had to this point, even though I'd built a lot of experience, I think there was, there's more talented people that could do it easier. So through this process, I wanted to be open about that. I wanted to show them like this process of learning in the mountains, this process of learning of learn from it. I don't

have the need to preserve my own image as a superhero. I'd rather put my image out as a normal human than anything else. You know, Superman has a cape, Batman has all the tools. And, you know, it sounds like if you were a superhuman, there would be the one where it's like, I have no ego. Like, you know, like I'm not managing that anymore. Like I'm free from, yeah. Okay. It's brilliant. Is there a word or phrase that guides your life? I think it's always just been passion or obsession. That's, and I know it's cliche and I know people say that a lot, but it's lot, but it's been so central to what I do. Like I looked at after I skied the crack, I actually went through a pretty unique experience of like, okay, what are you going to do next? It was a question I faced both externally.

So many people asked me that and internally. At that point in my life, I felt like the crack was kind of my pinnacle. It was a dream I'd been working for. At the remember I, I took in my mind three years off from skiing. Sure. I still was a professional skier and doing my sport, but I, in this three years, I was searching for what is driving you because I knew like only passion was what was going to get me to this next step. And I looked at it at times when I kept filming and I kept doing that style of skiing and I put myself in unnecessary risk and without the night good observation, because I wasn't passionate about it. Like I kind of like hurt myself in small ways a couple of times. Cause I would go into a line and just be like, Oh yeah, whatever. It's 40 foot cliff. And

I'd fly off the wrong direction and almost land on like rocks or an icefall and crash and be like, man, you're not focused because you're not obsessed with this anymore. You're not passionate about it and you need that edge in order to drive you. And that's when I kind of started to find ski mountaineering, expedition style skiing and this project called The 50. It kept popping in my head and it kept just driving me internally. And it kept having a conversation with myself laying in bed at night. And I realized it was like, this is the only thing that you're obsessed with. You have to do this. Now you have to try to be the first person to ever ski this because it's the only thing you can think about. So since I had that passion, I needed to follow it. And

since then, three years later, still following it. How does your mom manage your way of living? You know, only child, you know, you're out in the edge. How does she manage it? I think it's a lot of trust and it's a lot of these these moments of of building it i i look at my dad always recalls this experience when i went to a ski race and um i was at uh it would snowed a ton and there we were in between runs and i always brought like free skis to ski races because i i really liked just going and skiing in between. And I went to this like completely hidden section of the mountain and there was like a 90 foot cliff and I had been kind of seeing it from

afar over and over and over. And I was like 17 years old. And I went over the course of like a few days, just kept checking it out, kept checking it out. And then I just went by myself and jumped this like 90 foot cliff, landed it and skied away. Not one person saw it. I didn't tell anyone about it. It was just, there was no Kodak courage, if you will. It was just something in me. And my dad always tells me that story because he said it, he learned trust in me at that moment because he knew it wasn't about external validation. And we knew it wasn't about showing off. It was something that it was just me scoping this out and being driven by it that I had to just go jump this stupidly high cliff. And I think that moment and a bunch of other moments since then has been able to build

this trust in me. I would say probably early on, it wasn't easy for them. And they still definitely get stressed out, but they do trust me. And I hear that word a lot from them. What are the big questions you have in life? What are you trying to sort out? That's a tough one. I think, I mean, the biggest question I have in life is why are risk takers drawn to risk when everything in our world and everything we've learned from Darwinism to survival instinct says that our whole entire life goal is to stay alive and to procreate. And that's the most instinctual thing to do. But why is there a certain percentage of the population that is willing to climb El Cap with no ropes that is willing to, uh, ski and climb the biggest, most dangerous mountains on earth? Why, why is that there? There is something that I know that is far deeper than the cliche of being an adrenaline junkie. That is something instinctual that drives humans to do this. I have my own theories, but I don't know it yet. And I kind of feel like that would be my life's work is to figure that out. Unfortunately, I'm not a scientist, neuroscientist or sports psychologist. So I'm just trying to learn through experience as opposed to research, but it's something that I'm, I am pretty interested in. Well, maybe there's a, maybe there's a partnership in there that we can sort out because

I get asked the question often, you know, why is selfish? Like, why? So, so like danger, like, and I don't have an answer either, but I do have a reflection, which is we need people like you. We need people to go to the edge of the frontier and to understand those experiences and bring them back and to remind us that the most dangerous things are not what other people think of you. And when you face that dragon, that there's probably something deeper

that you can explore, something more meaningful. And so we need people like you to teach us about how to be present, even in the face of risk and danger, how to be calm, how to use our imagination to be able to dial in our capabilities, you know, and to honestly express them in the environments and the canvases that are difficult to do so. And so I don't know, but we do need you. And so the price to admission is high, the dark side and the loss of loved ones and the price of admission is you. And so the price to admission is high, the dark side and the loss of loved ones

and the price of admission is high. And so thank you for the conversation, for sharing and being an honest man in this conversation. It's really refreshing. And so if you could name this conversation, this episode, what would you name it? to understand is every little bit of influence that you have, whether it's chemical inside you, whether it's the societal external factors, every little thing that's going on around you to be able to separate yourself and then look at it from an almost external place and have this just unique self-awareness, I think is the main lesson that I've learned in the mountains. And I think it's kind of where our conversation has gone a lot is being able to truly look at yourself as the only person that can understand truly yourself is you.

And to be honest with that, uh, along the way. I love it, Cody. I love the, the, the series and the 50. I love, um, you know, the most insane line ever is you, for folks to Google at the crack. Um, is there any stone that we have left on turn that would be, um, important for us to, to make sure we hit? I mean, the only thing that we kind of, that I've really done a lot of thought about and research about and trying to figure out is, is these flow states that we, we kind of almost touch upon when we're talking about the crack and these Zen-like states. And I look back at these experiences of actually both the experiences that we've talked about, me jumping that 90-foot cliff and landing on rock, and then also the crack. There is these moments in both of those sensations

where it feels like time stops. And you feel like you are, there's this, you feel like you're in the matrix, for lack of a better term. That's at the rocks below me going like, you're going to die. But in that moment, not feeling a single ounce of fear and instead watching the world around me just completely almost freeze. And I will still to this day, I can look at the snow to the right of me and see the texture in the snow. I could see the cameramen that were almost two miles away. I could see the helicopter that was a mile below me. I could see every little detail. And it was like, it felt like you, I tapped into where we say only we use 10% of our brains. You're like, well, that was a moment I was using a hundred percent because all of a sudden I was able to have a book length conversation with myself in the span of two seconds. And then this happened in the crack too, where I had to make crucial decisions

going 65 miles an hour, but these decisions that would take place in a 10th of a second, which I'd kind of looked out through my GoPro footage and tried to kind of analyze, I remember having conversations with myself going like, hey, the snow's moving next to you at a pretty high rate. I didn't expect slough to be there. You're either going to have to stop and let the slough go or you're going to have to get in front of it. So this next turn, should you make it with speed and kind of bank off this or should you slow it down, shut it down and get behind that slough? And that conversation with that level of calm happened in 0.3 seconds. And these are these moments where I've looked at where like there's something so much even deeper to our mind

and to our brain than we even know. And those are these moments where you see it in major sports when you talk about like game winning drives and three point shots and being in the zone and in these moments that you're like, it's something that I wish everyone in the world can feel once. I hope it doesn't necessarily have to come from feeling like they're falling to their death, but it's something that I'm very fascinated by because it's a sensation that feels as the most human I've ever felt in those moments. Cody, we're going to do something together because it is my purpose in life is to help others live in the present moment more often. It's really concrete for me. And you know, why the present moment, because that's what you're describing is when you can link a couple,

you can stitch together a couple of the present moments. That's where we start to experience quote unquote flow or the zone or musicians call it being in the pocket. You know, there's lots of phraseology for it. And when we can stitch the present moment together, this moment and this moment and this moment and this moment, then that is where wisdom is revealed. That is where all the amazing parts of life are experienced. It's also where high performance is expressed. So the mechanism to get into stitching the present moment together for some people is high risk, for some people

it's contemplation. But there are many ways that we can use our own mind to increase the frequency of us being in the present moment more often. And most people do not use their mind. They're used by their mind. And so there's an incredible moment in time where we've got this convergence of people saying, hey, I'm done with not knowing how to use this thing because I'm depressed. I'm anxious. I'm irritable. I'm like, I'm not living, quote unquote,

a good life. And so people like you that are on the frontier that come back to say, hey, let me explain a few things that I've learned. Here's a couple of unique berries that I found out there. And these berries are actually quite tasty analogy for how to use the mind, which is to be calm and confident, to have self-awareness, to be able to speak to yourself in productive ways, to have a sense of knowing and accurate reference points to map up against and to organize, fundamentally organize your life to challenge yourself every day. And when you do that, you don't need danger, but you do need a way to challenge yourself every day. And when you do that, you don't need danger, but you do need a way to challenge yourself

and to be in the present moment more often. Do it again and do it again and do it again. And you'll find it in conversations. And that's where kind of, I think, humanity 2.0, if there's such a thing, will be unlocked for folks. So maybe there's a project for us cody maybe there's something for us to play with but um i love this conversation i did too i mean i i as

you can probably tell from this i'm i'm fascinated by it at all i'm fascinated by the mind and the power it has and i'm fascinated like how you can use it to your advantage and how it can also take over you. And I really liked what you said about, um, you know, the mind is using you and I, in these moments, man, there's just something that is, I wish for all people to experience at one point in their life, because I feel like it's what's made me happy. It's what made my life feel fulfilled, and it makes my relationship strong, and it's something that I love and want to continue to do. Awesome, Cody. I just want to say thank you. Can I just take a minute and maybe share with you how I've experienced you?

Would that be okay? Yeah, definitely. I'd be very curious. Yeah. Yeah, really open to experiences, highly conscient do have, because of that high awareness, you do have mechanisms to deal with, you know, a nervousness or sadness or your emotional body, if you will. It feels to me is that you might be more introverted than extroverted, that you like the quiet, reserved, thinking, feeling state more than the gregarious, outgoing, talking a bunch, that you gather more energy from

small settings with people than large settings with others, but I'm not sure about that. Your tolerance for risk is high, but it's been purposeful. So you're not a thrill seeker or an adventure junkie, but you are purposely looking to progress at a rapid pace. And you've fundamentally organized your life towards that. And you've got partners in your life that you trust that hold mirrors up to you to keep you honest. You've also got a backdrop and a backstop of the mountain, which is where you get honest as well. I think that people in your life would be lucky to have you in their life because you're going to push and you're also going to see. And so I think you start with the seeing of the truth and then you're probably going to challenge people to be better just by being around you. And so those are just some ways that I think

about the way that you work. And what a gift, man. I appreciate the contemplative nature and the thoughtfulness and the desire to understand more without this braggadocious, narcissistic, look at me, thump my chest, notch in the belt approach to life. And so it's refreshment. It is refreshing to know you in this way. So all that being said, what did I miss? No, I think you kind of nailed it. I am definitely more on the introverted side. I value a one-on-one conversation with someone that's deep into the night more than I would going out and partying and going to shows or doing that kind of celebratory life. I completely agree. And it's something I think that's empowered me to do what I do. I look at

my own successes in life and I think quite often less of it has been tied to my body and physical gifts in that sort of way. Of course, you have to have that to you would think about is the power of their mind. Yet I do think the best in the world have more consciousness and more power of their mind and understanding of it than, than just about any other human. And then they're also uniquely gifted when it comes to athletic talents. Do people know, do they recognize your patience and your kindness, or does that part of you get missed? No. I mean, my wife talks about it. I'm incredibly patient.

And I don't know whether I learned that from my mom, who's one of the most patient humans I've ever been. But no, I get told that quite often as a unique characteristic of myself, that I'm patient. And your kindness, do people see characteristic of myself that I'm patient. And your kindness, do people see that in you? I think so. I don't like to be a judge of that. And I don't necessarily, I think of, you know, I think of kindnesses can be expressed in so many unique ways. And I think we quite often rely, like, we'll use it too often to describe someone being like, oh, he's a very nice person.

And like nice can be used in so many different ways that I look at kindness as like, what is the impact that you're actually having? Being just kind to someone can be a facade. It can be not who you're who you actually are. So I try to measure it in actual what is your impact? And to me, like I wouldn't say I'm there yet i'd say that's part of one of my life's work is everything that the mountains i feel like have taught me and given to me in this life that i do want to figure out a way to give that back and share that with more people in a in a unique way because i i don't think of myself as being kind in the in the way that's going to impact people's lives so that they can have

the same sort of contentment that I have. Yes, you can be nice to people in person, but so can a lot of people that truly don't have good intentions can be nice. So I'd rather have that measured and impacted than necessarily what people say about me. Cody, are there a few things that you would suggest people do or read to get better? My, I think, whole theory in life has been like baby steps. And it's baby steps with goals set up. So when I work myself to something that is like monumental, I feel like it's just these tiny little steps along the way. And so it's going through every day with this intention of like, if I have one little goal today, um, I look at it when I'm on the ski resort and it may

be just making one turn, uh, doing something a little bit differently than I've done before. That is a goal that I will try to accomplish that day. And then I build off that experience. And then I build off what I felt from there to make the next step. I, you know, when people ask, like, how do you jump 100 foot cliff? You're like, well, you start with a two foot cliff, and then you do a five foot cliff, and then you do an eight-foot cliff and then you do a 10-foot cliff and you continue to build on that not over one year, not over a month, over a decade to get to that point. And so to me, it's all about baby steps and it's all about going each day with that little intention to accomplish a goal, to challenge yourself so that you can build upon that. Yeah, you go. Okay. Thank you, Cody.

Appreciate you. It's awesome. No, that it was a really fun conversation. One of the more fun podcast conversations I've had. So thank you. Um, yeah, enjoy talking to you and hopefully it doesn't end here. Yeah, man. All right, brother. I'll talk to you soon. Sounds good. Okay. Bye-bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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