Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Explorer's Guide to Self-Discovery | 7x World Champ, Rebecca Rusch

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Rebecca Rusch, a 7x-world champion in the ultra adventure/endurance realm and a member of the prestigious international Mountain Bike Hall of Fame.Rebecca has been recognized by Outside Magazine among the Top 40 Women Who’ve Made the Biggest Impact and by Men’s Journal as one of the 25 Most Adventurous Women.Known for seeking the toughest challenges imaginable and pushing herself into unknown territory has yielded Rebecca many firsts...Notably, the first female ascent on Yosemite’s 3000-ft. El Capitan Bermuda Dunes route and a first descent river boarding 300 miles of the entire Grand Canyon in 18 winter days.On two wheels, she is the only female competitor to win the iconic Leadville 100 four times and is a two time, first female finisher at the Iditarod Trail Invitational, pedaling 350 self-supported miles through the Alaskan wilderness.  Most recently she completed a previously unattempted North to South route traversing Iceland in winter by fatback alongside Chris Burkard and Angus Morton.  So I think it begs the question.. why?Why go to these lengths? What is she searching for? What do these expeditions reveal?That’s what this conversation is about._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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What is this world about? That happens for me in places where I'm physically at my limit. All right, welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais and by trade and training i am a sport and performance psychologist and i am fortunate to work with some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet and the whole idea behind this podcast behind these conversations conversations, is to learn from them, is to pull back the curtain, to better understand how they've committed, fundamentally committed their life efforts towards mastering both their craft and their minds. And as you know, your mind, our minds are our greatest asset.

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something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find

something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein

goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Rebecca Rush, a seven time world champion in the ultra adventure endurance realm and a member of the prestigious international mountain bike hall of fame. So Rebecca has been recognized time and time again. On the inner circle, she is, people nod their head like, oh, Rebecca. And then, you know, she's got also all the public accolades as well. Like Outside Magazine, you know, noted that she was in the top 40 women who've made the biggest impact.

And then by Men's Journal as one of the 25 most adventurous women. So known for seeking the toughest challenges imaginable and literally pushing herself into unknown territory, has yielded Rebecca many firsts. Notably, what I want to highlight, the first female ascent on Yosemite's 3,000-foot El Capitan Bermuda Dunes route. And she also had the first descent riverboarding 300 miles of the entire Grand Canyon in 18 winter days. And then on two wheels,

she is the only female competitor to win the iconic Leadville 100 four times. And she's a two-time first female finisher at the Iditarod Trail Invitational. What does that mean? If you're not familiar, pedaling 350 self-supported miles through the Alaskan wilderness. We talked about that story. It's remarkable. Most recently, she completed a previously unattempted north to south route traversing Iceland in winter by fatback alongside Chris Burkard and Angus Morton. So this all begs the question, why? And people like Rebecca get asked that question often, but really why go to these lengths? What is she searching for? What do these expeditions reveal?

And that's really what this conversation is about. And more importantly, it is an invitation to you, for you to reflect on how and what you're exploring in your life. And all too often people say that they want to live the good life, but in return, don't step into the unknown. Don't step into the frontier and rather play it safe. And there's nothing wrong with safety, but you will not understand your potential if you don't explore. And so this is an invitation for you to explore your own psychology by listening to how Rebecca organizes her life, wrestles with some questions, and has clear answers on the other side of some of it. So I'm so happy for you to

know Rebecca in this way and for you to use this as an opportunity to explore as well. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with a true legend, Rebecca Rush. Rebecca, how are you? I'm excellent. I'm so happy to be talking to you. We know so many of the same people and you're in my ears a lot. When I'm gardening, I put my big headphones on and listen to Finding Mastery and on my bike.

And so I'm really excited to talk to you. Oh, that is, well, that's a great way to start. That's really fun. You know, and you are, I said it in the intro, but you're a legend. And I'm excited to talk to you because you, I think you really understand this language that is not, it's not reserved for few, but only few understand it. And that language is the language that happens in the frontier with world leading game changers across industries. It's the same language. It's the same type of conversation. And so I want to spend some time with you about how you think about things. And the things that I'm interested in are both internal things and external things.

How do you make sense of when something doesn't go according to plan, which has been most of your life, I think? And then how do you make sense of the things that pop up in your own internal experience? Emotions and thought patterns and whatever. I want to know that from you. And let me just take a quick little moment here to say congratulations on a radical body of work and being able to tell stories that move people. And so thank you for the time. Well, I mean, ditto right back at you.

And it's awesome that you think I've got it all figured out because part of my reason of being really excited to talk to you is you're going to help me continue to figure out. And it is a journey. I really do feel like we're constantly evolving. And so I don't have it all figured out, but I want to continue to learn. And I think that's been a big part of, you know, when people ask, why do you keep doing this stuff or that stuff is is I you know I'm interested in being a perpetual student so um there's a favorite quote I have that that came to me um not too long ago and um I don't even know who said it it's an old eastern philosophy sort of quote and it says um when the when the student is ready the teacher will appear and so um but I've kind of been living by that for the last sort of five or six years. And anyway, so I think we're all students and I appreciate what

you do on the podcast because I learn a lot from you as well. Oh, too fun. Okay. So who have been some of your teachers? Teachers? Well, probably my biggest teacher is movement in the outdoors. And that's how I have started. It's how I started as a young child, playing in the dirt, camping in the backyard, you know, asking my mom, like, can I camp out in the backyard again this weekend. And continuing even this past winter to on the Iditarod trail and, you know, riding my bike in the snow for for a week at a time. So so the outdoors is my teacher. And if you follow the arc of my career, it might look like it's all over the place. But there really is this constant theme of the outdoors movement and curiosity and exploration. And I've actually started referring to myself, not as an athlete or professional athlete, but as an explorer, because I feel like athlete is too small

for what I'm doing and what I want to do. Athlete is part of it, but it's not the whole thing. I want to wave my hands and say, yeah, I love that for you. And I've seen that. I've seen that in your commitment towards the edge. And so I know that I'm not supposed to really ask you this question, but you know what question's coming? No. How old are you? I know we're not really supposed to ask, but I think it's materially important to this conversation. Yeah. And you know what? I share my, and I don't mind you asking, and I share my age a lot because I want people to know this is what 52 looks and feels and sounds like

I'm 52 years old. And I, you know, I, I feel amazing. My body is serving me very well. You know, obviously there's adaptations I have to make like stretching and sleeping and some of those, um, sort of wellness things that we should have been doing 30 years ago. Um, but yeah, I'm 52 and I really, I feel like I'm still in an athletic prime and I had this last winter, I did two really big bike expeditions and one of them in particular, I feel like was the best performance of my life in an expedition. And so I'm pretty excited about that one. So, yeah, I'm 52. You're fine to ask it. And because I believe that people need to see you need to see what things look like. And I remember being in high school and, you know,'s what maybe 28 years old and you're like oh my teacher's so my math teacher's so old you know and by the time you're 28 or 30 you're like

oh it's not really that old and so yeah I'm 52 I don't use the word old I use the word seasoned experienced and no other place like you think about, think about people who excel in, in areas of the brain, um, politicians, lawyers, scientists, you would never be like, oh, you're done at 50. Like just hang it up. It's over. And I think that's, what's really exciting for me in my athletic career is that I'm not competing and, and, and doing stuff at this age because I am a physical phenom. I'm pretty average. You can ask my coach. You know, my physiology is okay.

It's good. But the longevity that's really happened in the last decade for me is all the other stuff, what I call the spaces in between. You know, your mind, your brain, what brain, the, what you listen to, what you think about, um, how you sleep, you know, I know you talk about a lot of those things, but that's really what, why I feel like this last winter was the best performance of my life in Alaska, because I combined some new exciting techniques and I'm pretty excited about how I'm more now and where science and ancient

techniques are coming together and in implementing some of that stuff has been super fun. And really the last five years or so that, that I've added some of those, some of those things. Can we drill down? I want to do one quick frame, which is what are you exploring? And then I want to drill down into the spaces between, and then I want to have a, like a triple click and get into, um, like what are some of the practices that are, you're, you're going to click. We're clicking in. I love when you say that.

Do you? Yeah. Okay, good. So, so hit with a quick frame really quickly. What are you exploring? I'm exploring myself. You know, that is, and I use the, of course, I want to see what's over the next hill. I love exploring externally. And I originally thought all of my explorations were that, you know, I've lived out of my car. I've, you know, rock climbed all over the place, filled a bunch of passports. And originally I thought I was exploring the world, but now come to the understanding and the consciousness that I've been exploring myself the whole time. And my platform has just been movement in the outdoors. So absolutely a study of self. I think one of

your previous guests used the term, I don't remember which guest it was, but she said knee search instead of research. And I really liked that. So yeah, that's what I'm exploring is me. So you're using you to understand humans, or are you using you to understand you? That's a really good question. I originally thought I was, you know, it was about me. I'm like performing, winning on a podium, going this place, understanding me, but really the, the cool trajectory that really is very new. That's just starting to crystallize for me is that the reason I'm studying me, and this is the purpose that my dad has helped give me is that now I can package and put that together and take that and share that with other people and fast track their performance. And I truly believe this is my, my purpose in life. And it's why I'm athletically

gifted. I've created my path this way, um, eventually to share what I know with other people and not that I know everything, but I know a bunch of stuff I've, I've written and been, you know, more miles than, than most people will. And so it's, it's almost like getting a cliff notes instead of having to take the university class. And, and so, yeah, it was me and now it's expanding beyond me. Okay. So I want to, I want to harden this up a little bit for me because the frame is I'm an explorer. I'm, I've been exploring me for a long time. I use the outdoors and the edges of the frontier

and the edges of my capacity to better understand how I can go further and do more. But then when I started to look at it more deeply, I'm an explorer of me, my potential. And now I'm figuring out what are the right ways to share the opening process for other people's potential. Okay. Close? Exactly. Close. Yeah. Okay. So how did you go from the narcissistic, self-absorbed, self-focused requirement sometimes, not always, but sometimes the selfishness of using your own self for your success and your kind of, you know, need to win and need to whatever to pay the bills.

And this it's a, it's the athlete trap in many respects. And so it's, and it's not reserved just for athletes. It's most people that are tip of the arrow type folks. There is a selfishness involved. So how did you go from selfishness to selflessness? I think that pivot started when I wrote my book and I was asked to write my book. A publisher came to me and I didn't really want to write a book. And I will tell you that practice is the hardest thing I've done because everything I have achieved in life is just from working harder. You put in more miles, you spend more time and the results come creative writing is not that way. Um, the harder you try the less it flows for me, at least, um, you know, and I, I put

that book out cause I was asked to do it and it was a bunch of adventure stories and lessons that I've learned. And that practice, it was probably like basically my first journaling practice was, was writing a book and putting it out there. And, and I, when I was done with it, it was like, I don't think anyone's going to read this, but my mom and that's fine. And I was totally okay with it because it was such a cool exercise to one, look back and celebrate that. Like, Oh wow. I've done some cool stuff instead of just what's the next thing. How can I win more? How can I do more? How can I

do the next thing? I was forced to look backwards, kind of a reverse bucket list and be like, Whoa, okay. Like not to brag or anything, but like, I've done some cool stuff when I had to write it all down. And, and, but then when the book did come out and like young girls read it and dads read it and athletes read it and non-athletes read it. And I got some really nice feedback from people that, um, I saw that it helped people. And I was shocked by that. I really didn't, I didn't expect it. I didn't understand it, but that was the first opening that the power of telling the story and sharing your experience so that others can resonate and be like,

oh, I feel that way too. I'm not totally alone in the world. Like admitting, you know, I had an eating disorder, admitting I'm scared at races. I'm that I was a lousy mountain biker, like just admitting that, you know, we hold pro athletes or high achievers up on this pedestal. Um, and I was pretty honest in the book. Cause that one, cause I didn't think anyone was going to read it. And, um, I was really honest. Even my coach at the time, he's like, wow, you were really honest. And I was like, well, no, one's going to read it anyway, but, but people did. And it resonated and help people. And I think that was the first eye opener that it's important to share our stories, not for narcissism, not to say, Hey, look at me, but to be like, Hey, I'm,

I'm normal. You're normal. We're all going through some of this stuff. Maybe this will help you. Here's how I dealt with it. And that was years ago, but that really started me understanding, um, that it isn't just about me and that has launched, you know, into event that I put on and girls clinics that I teach. And I mean, I can tell you when I stand on the finish line of the event that I put on here in Idaho, like I am so amped and excited for people to come in from a hundred miles and they're sweating and crying. And like, I'm just as excited as if it was me standing on a podium. And it's, you know, it's one of my sort of core, what I call my navigational handrails that I've developed. And it's that, that give equals get. And when we do give a little of ourselves, we get a lot back. And that's really

has shaped sort of the last, I don't know, decade of my work and my career. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

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let's go to the dark side for a minute. So what have been some of the costs? Let's talk about eating disorders. Let's talk about loneliness. Let's talk about relationships. And I just feel like you have an honest, unvarnished look and ability to explain the cost of pursuing. And I don't know this yet for you.

Was it the best or your best? Either way, there's a cost. So which one was it? The best or your best? Was your pursuit? And then what are some of the, the darker sides that, um, you know, you found to be like hard, difficult. Yeah. The, the, the best and my best, it, that has vacillated a few different times in my career. Um, you know, I got involved with sport in cross country in high school, cross country running and basically pretty low self-esteem, low body image. And my next door neighbor,

who was my sister's age, two years older. Um, she said to me, Hey, well, if she was on the cross country running team, she's like, Hey, if you join the cross country running team, you get a free track suit and you'll never get fat. I was like, I'm in. And literally that is, that was my entree into sport was so I could have a cool, like cotton kind of sweatsuit with the little hoodie and everything. And mostly so that I wouldn't get fat. Um, but I discovered something quite different along the way. And so of course my performance in high school was not, you know, I wasn't thinking I was a winner or wasn't, you know, I was kind of surprised that I had any talent in sport. Um, and so then once I started to see that, you know, we won the state meet and we did some things. Um, then it started, it was very me focused and, and being my best, um, transfer quick to another transition.

When you sort of start collecting a paycheck for doing a sport, um, the dynamic changes quite a lot. And all of a sudden, even the best and your best isn't enough. You could win a world championship that year and a contract is canceled at the end of the year. And so, so that became a kind of a twisted period of, I am doing my best and the best, and that's still not good enough. Like what else can I do? And, and that, I think that was a good period to actually really helped me be honest as an athlete of, of what do I stand for? Why am I in this sport? Is it just about podiums? Um, and, and it is my career. I am, I do love my career, but there were in the middle, they're sort of 30. I started mountain biking at age 38. So as I'm,

you know, 40 ish, I started transitioning to, yes, I want to do my best. Yeah. I'm still very, um, competitive. My husband can attest to that. I love to win. Um, but it's, it's bigger than that. Now it's not about, um, you know, checking off, checking off things on a resume that said that kind of ability to shape your brand and your career and what you stand for. It comes later because no one can take away the world championships. No one could take away the wins anymore. I have those, I have them on my resume. And, and so I can be a little bit more free with my decision-making. Um, but in the middle of the heat of it, you're scrapping for scrapping for

contracts and especially women in endurance sports don't make a lot of money. And so you talk about sacrifice. I mean, yeah, there were big costs of, uh, choosing to go this adventurous route, including no health insurance, living out of my car, no place to live. Um. A lot of that stuff. And I always said, when I, when I have a garage, like I know I'll, I've really made it. And it wasn't even the house. Like I just wanted the garage to put my, all my stuff, you know? So I have a garage in Idaho and I have a house that's attached to it. And there's a sense of stability that it took me many, many decades to get to, you know, I didn't, I didn't buy a place, have a home to live in until age 40, 43. So yeah, my high school home, you know, I grew up with my mom, and then my next home, you know, took decades to get there. Do you see the choices you've made to be sacrifices or this

isn't a lot of people will talk about sacrifices and I don't see them that way in my life. I don't see sacrifices. I see is like choices that are going to maybe be harder, but necessary. And so I don't really understand the sacrifice thing i'm with you i don't get it either like people can look no i there were choices that i made i i could have gotten a different job i didn't have to live out of my car i didn't have to go after these things but you know that explorer in me the curiosity i mean you know stephen kotler is someone i'm really interested in right now. I've been talking to him. He wrote the art of impossible and he talks about, you know,

what are the brain chemicals released for motivation and curiosity is one of them. Curiosity is extremely motivating. And so, no, I don't look at my choices as sacrifices. Somebody might like sleeping in the dirt, you know, or sleeping in your car, um, for some people isn't the right thing, but what it led to was like, oh yeah, I'll sleep in the dirt. If I can go climb El Cap, like, sure. I'll go without, you know, eating, you know, as much as I want to eat. If I can travel the world, um, I'll go without a regular nine to five job if, you know, I can carve my own career path. And, and yeah, so I feel, I almost feel lucky that I had the, I had the courage to sort of carve this really unconventional path that there was no trail map for, you know, and it's great to see people are, especially in sport and career, like there's

a lot more creativity now than there was 30 years ago for somebody to build a career. People can work digitally. You can, you know, you can hone your skills at home. You don't even have to go to college. So the path is different. And, but at the time that I was carving it, there weren't very many people who'd come before sort of in the sports world and especially women in endurance sports world. So yeah, it was a sacrifice, but look, you know, people now, I went back to my high school reunion and they're just like, you're so lucky. You're so lucky. And I'm like, I'm not lucky, you know? And, and I talked to a bunch of my classmates who are, you know, I went to school in the suburbs of Chicago and they're all still there and they're working in the city, they're commuting, they don't like their jobs,

you know, and they're just saying, you're so lucky. And it's like, well, it wasn't luck at all. It was hard work and choice. So you're a seven time world champion. It's just one of the shingles that you could post, you know, in front of your office there or on your website, I guess. And what do you hope, what do you wish 16-year-old girls would understand that you have come to understand? And I'm going to ask you a series of these? Just confidence. And that's what I got from sport confidence in your body as a tool that, you know, you just confidence. It's such a, that age is so vulnerable. Um, and I really do believe in the power of sport in high school, junior high school, young age, because you learn, that's what I learned was confidence and community. And so for any young girl out there going to run, going to walk, um, and you'll learn about yourself and you'll learn that you're pretty awesome, even though you don't think you are, you know, so let me, let me stay here for a minute because the confidence is really tricky. Um, let me do boys for a minute. Boys that are in the lower third of sport, like the bottom third of, the adults in your life that are helping you figure

out how to interpret it. It's a really important role that people take there. And so if you're not good and people are like, they don't want to talk to you. Uh, they're asking more parents, coaches are asking more about outcome than they are about growth and, and getting better. It's a tough place because it's natural to compare. And it sounds like you had some of that comparison trap with maybe some body stuff, you know, at a young age, but like, let's, let's pull on this thread just a little bit. You say

you sport and confidence hung out together for you. Like it was a place for you to sort out confidence. How were you able to build confidence? I think the man, your point is really good for the people at the back of the pack. It's, you know, a different experience. I do sort of anecdotally feel like girls sports perhaps are a little more community based at times. And it depends on the sport too. but for me, the confidence came with, with understanding that my body could, was a tool and could take me places and that I actually had, um, the ability to shape the experience. If I went in the weight room and I did the work and I did the stuff, I got better. So it was this very linear and

I didn't come in naturally gifted. I had no sports experience. There was no sport in my family. I wasn't exposed to it. So I learned pretty quickly that hard work led to result, which then led to confidence. And it was something that I could control. Amen to that. Yeah. Confidence is a hundred percent under could control. Amen to that. Yeah. Confidence is a hundred percent under our control. We're just don't really teach people the mechanics of it, which it's not complicated. It's basically what you say to yourself.

And so if we, if that's where confidence comes from and, but it's gotta be credible, meaning that you gotta really test yourself to be able to know that you can stand up to tests. that you got to really test yourself to be able to know that you can stand up to test. And how do you speak to yourself when you don't know if you have what it takes? It's easy when it's easy, right? Like, I'm built for this. Let's go. That's easy. Yeah. Winning. And when you're super prepared and everything's going perfectly, it might physically hurt, but it feels pretty good emotionally. You're like, yeah, I'm on it. I got this. I'm on it. But when you don't know, you know, this is, our brains love this, by the way, our psychology is, unless trained, not, doesn't love it, you know, but how, how do you speak to yourself when you're not sure? And I love this space. This is back to your, almost your first comment, the space between,

the space between knowing and not knowing how do you speak to yourself? I'm going to, I'm going to go to the Iditarod trail, maybe as an example, because the last few years, um, explain, explain what that is to folks. I mean, this is one of the big ones. It's a big one. Um, the Iditarod Trail is the, it's a historic trail in Alaska. It was used as, it's basically a transportation route that was used to deliver medicine. It's a really cool history. And it goes all through the interior of Alaska. It's, you know, a thousand miles. And there's a race out there called the Iditarod Trail Invitational. And there's a 350 mile version and a thousand mile version. It happens in the winter. So, um, you know, temper temperatures can be minus 40. Um, and, and it's in a type of travel on bike called bike packing. So you're carrying all of your stuff with you on your bike, a minus 40 sleeping bag, all your food, um, medical supplies, bike supplies, navigational equipment. So your bike is a rolling hotel and you're self-supported and you go and do it as long as it takes.

And obviously the elements are super duper committing. And the last three years, I swear I would never do any winter bike expeditions because I don't really like the cold, but, um, I've started to get really deep into winter bike expeditions really, really in the last five years and including the ultimate, the Iditarod trail invitational that now I've done three times. And I said no to this event for a long time. And, and I curiosity kept coming up. Like, I wonder if I could actually survive it. Could I actually do it? And I started to realize I've been doing hard things all my life, but that I hadn't? Cause this is definitely very extreme, um, uh, environment that you're in. And I realized that I needed that level of commitment again, to really make myself rise to the occasion. So, um, prepared my first year was a total

shit show. I don't know if I can say shit show on here, but the first year I had the endurance experience. It wasn't the distance that was intimidating, but the elements and could I survive in the cold? And I finished, I won the women's field, but I was literally a sobbing, bloated, crying mess, physically and emotionally broken at the end of it because I had gone in and I wasn't confident in the, and I said, I'm not sleeping outside. There's no way I'm stopping. I'm like, I'm not going to like curl up in the snow and like let the wolves eat me. And like, I'm not going to do it. And so hold on, hold on, hold on. What were you afraid of? I was afraid of the cold. So I was afraid of if I stopped that I would freeze to death. Okay. And then where did you come up with that idea?

Just because I've, one, my physiology has never been very good in the cold. I get really cold hands and feet. I just have never been one who's fine in the cold. It's always been kind of like fear of the water or fear of falling. Cold has been kind of a primal element for me, even since I was a child. I hate being cold. And so it's hard to emphasize how big of a step that was to go into the cold unsupported without a building to go into to warm up. Why did you do this? Yeah. I mean, you've already done everything. So this is, you know, and one, everything, it seems like. Why is a good question. Yeah. Like

I usually don't ask the question. Why? I get asked why a lot. Yeah. I usually, I have a little bit of an aversion to whys. And I know some people really like the why question, but it feels cheap. And so I want to understand more context. But so I'm using it here with you. But I want to use it with sensitivity. Like why at this point in your life go into the cold? Because I needed to continue to learn. And, and that curious student explorer, what did you, what did you need to learn? What did I need to learn? I needed, I,

I needed to push myself really hard again, physically. And what did you need? What did you need that for? I need that because when I push myself really hard again, physically. And what did you need? What did you need that for? I need that because when I push myself really hard physically, that is my teacher. That is where I learn about myself. It's where I understand what's next. It's where I solve all of my problems, whether it's a bike ride here in my backyard or the really deep philosophical questions of why am I here? What am I doing? What is this world about? That happens for me in places where I'm physically at my limit. And I, I realized I hadn't done that before, or I hadn't done that in a while since blood road, really. I hadn't, the Ho Chi Minh trail is is that was the last really big expedition ride i did and that is the platform for me to perform physically at my best but what

happens in those kinds of really committing scary environments is that i rise to the occasion. It's like, Oh, the woman pulling her car off a baby, you know, or like we can do things that we don't believe we can do, but you have to immerse yourself like fully in the element to go there. And are you, how do you know that you're not using this narrative to get another notch to know that you still matter in this decade to be relevant to um whatever fill in the blank you know others whatever community and i i've watched you for decades, you know, kind of our ships passing in the nighttime when I was with Red Bull. I know you're still with them.

So like, how do you know that? I believe you. But how do you wrestle with that part of it? I'm doing this because it's a frontier I haven't been to. I, I don't want to say it out loud, because I'm smart enough, savvy enough to know that I don't want to tell somebody that this is the only way I can be relevant. You know, there is an element of that, I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna be super open. There's an element that, you know, when people say, when are you going to retire? Or Oh, you're retired athlete, there's an element in me that's like, no, no, I'm not.

No, I'm not. Watch this. And partially it's for me. It's for my own confidence. And partially I want to continue with my career trajectory. And partially it's to prove it to myself that like, oh, wait, no, I'm not done. I can do something bigger and harder and really commit to it. So, so I can't say it's not just all about this, you know, beautiful internal exploration

with all the right values. I mean, we have, we all have kind of this motivational menu, you know, that's, and, and some of them are intrinsic motivators. Some of them are extrinsic motivators. And yeah, that looks great for my sponsors. If I go to Alaska and I win a race, awesome. That's a really good check mark. It's not the primary mode motivator at all. Um, but it's part of it. It's part of what I do as part of being an athlete.

And so, so yeah, there, there is a part of that, of being relevant. And we all want to contribute. I've also recognized that when I go do that really gnarly stuff and I come back and have stories to tell from that, people really like those stories. Because it's a very extreme example of fear. And like you said, what do you say when you're lost and you're cold and you're hungry and it's not going well? I can go into that place for people who never want to go there and never will. I can go there, do a little experimentation on myself and then come back with some answers. And that three year trajectory of the Iditarod Trail went from being one of my most pathetic performances in year number one and just,

you know, in year number three, being one of the best expeditions of my life in an element that I'm not very good at in the cold. And so that's a pretty cool, that's pretty cool short-term trajectory. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Yeah. And I want to go to two places about if we were to sequence the places, the space between during your first race and you ended beaten, beaten up, you won, but depleted, radically depleted. It's the spaces in between that can make a massive difference. If you came in prepared and primed from a physical, physiological state, then it is the way that you're using your mind in those hard moments. And so if we were to say,

you were kind of pull it apart and there's big chunks and little chunks. And in the little chunks of this timeline for your first race, if the little chunks were the way that you were speaking to yourself when it was hard, what were you doing then that was different on your third race when you ended and you're like, Oh my God, like that was very different. Yeah. The first race I was beating myself up. I suck. I'm terrible. I'm scared. I don't want to be here. Um, you know, it was very negative, uh, negative conversation happening in my head. And I had to use, what does that, what does that sound like though? It it's, I mean, it's words that you wouldn't even use on yourself. And this is something that a tactic that I tell people that I talk to is like, you know, if you're saying, oh, Rebecca, you suck. Like why, you know,

you go home. Why, why are you even doing this? Would you say that to like, would I say that to you if you were next to me? Absolutely not. I, what would I say? I'd say, no, Michael, you can do it. Come on. You know, you've got this, you prepared, blah, blah, blah. We don't use the kind voice on ourself very often. And so, yeah, I was super negative about myself. And if I could have quit, I would have. But the fact that there's nowhere to go out there, I couldn't quit. I had to finish. And I finished not proud of my performance and not proud of that athlete who was on the trail

and being like, okay. And people were like, you won. That was great. But I wasn't proud of the achievement and I knew I had to go back and do it better. And that was my, my very next thought is okay. I can do that better. And the second year was better. And really the third year, the really the big difference for me was in some new techniques that I started implementing, not new for me, not new for anyone, but some very specific breathing techniques that I took to Alaska, some very specific energy techniques of like harnessing energy and keeping it in to keep me warm and really being much more mindful. I was physically better prepared. I will say that my coach got me really ready. We did, um, a bunch of like, um, making my own food that I experimented with after

year number one and like making my own food, putting it in the freezer at home, seeing if it was edible when it was frozen and really figuring out the nutrition because I wasn't able to eat or drink very well year one. And so there was some, you know, physical stuff that I, that I educated myself and figured out on, but really the big factor was I did ride this last year is the first year that I was very consciously using breathing techniques and energy and calming myself. And instead of getting into a panic and a frenzy and really conserving energy and spending it only in the places that I wanted to spend it. How did you train for that?

And what were the breathing techniques you were using? I'm still, I'm making some, I made them up as I went along. So some of them have been just, I'm making some, I made them up as I went along. And so some of them have been just, you know, reading, reading cool books. You know, the book breath is out now. And I read a book called, called the just about the channels of energy, you know, aligned in your spine and your chakra. And so it was really just kind of listening to podcasts, like finding mastery and just diving a little further in. And I do have to say, Red Bull has just kind of listening to podcasts like finding mastery and just diving a little further in. And I do have to say, Red Bull has been kind of amazing with, um,

you know, their athlete performance team. And we did some camps long ago where they were, they, you know, put brain electrodes on our heads and made us go around this track a million times and trying to figure out, you know, does the, does the mind or the body quit first? And so I've been, um, I've been, uh, lightly introduced to some of these things, but I hadn't really taken them really into practice. And, um, I feel like everyone around the world is waking up to this right now, not just me, but it's super exciting. And so one breath that I made up and I'll tell you this, what's really cool about what's happening right now in my world is that I'm starting to understand intuitively for decades, I've been doing the right things as an athlete without a lot of coaching, without a lot of understanding what I

was doing. And now with some study and some research and like talking to different people who are experts in these fields, I'm consciously starting to understand like, oh, oh yeah, that's what I've been doing. Okay, cool. I'm going to put a name to it and I'm going to like consciously do it instead of I've always been breathing. And I think that's the thing about sport. That's kind of awesome. It makes you breathe hard and it just happens naturally. If you're working really hard and breathe hard, um, but taking it a next level is actually breathing in a certain way. And so what I did in Alaska, and then I came home and kind of like found out, you know, I done some things that were already written down that were kind of cool. I called it the tree breath. And so what I was, I mean, it's so beautiful there there's mountains

all around. And so when I was feeling tired, it's like, okay, I'm going to take energy, like, like the leaves of a tree. I'm going to take it all in. And also the interesting thing about Alaska and these really remote races is you're wearing a satellite tracking device. So I knew people at home were watching me and they like get up in the middle of the night and they'd see this little dot moving along. And so I knew people out there. So the tree breath was to like all the leaves of the tree are bringing energy into me, into my body, take a deep breath in and then breathe it out into the earth, like the, like the roots of a tree. So going out, coming in,

going out, coming in. And, and I had this visual of this tree breath and, you know, the trees become this symbol in my life for a different reason, but, but it was basically a grounding breath and an energy conservation breath that was, and it gave me something else to think about instead of I'm cold, I'm freezing, um, how much longer? And so, yeah, I was using the tree breath and then I was also using this other breath. My husband was there with me and it was a really beautiful experience. We ended up riding together unplanned, amazing experience, but you know, he's trudging behind me or if he was feeling down, I would switch the breath. So instead of coming straight up and down, it was going forward and

back. And so I'd like breathe in energy from the trail into me and then send it out the back, back to him. And just, I was just doing that. And, and honestly it worked and we both had an amazing time. It was super positive. I wasn't, I mean, I was cold, but I wasn't cold. And I just managed the same situation so much better. And also having an appreciation for the fact that I get to do these things. I choose to do these things. I get to be in Alaska in the middle of winter, looking at wolf tracks and how, how lucky that my body can take me there instead of this, like, Oh, this is painful. I hate it. Why am I here? Um, I, and I think that comes with age realizing that like, you know, I only have so many years left to perform in this way. And like, I want to be in the moment and take, take everything

out of it because there'll be a time when I won't be able to do that. I think that you've used your external environments as a forcing function to get to the truth. And it sounds to me that, you know, in surfing, we call it waves of consequence. You're calling it, you know, committing environments, same thing is that if you're not right, you figure out quickly, you know, and sometimes it's consequential and sometimes it's just really scary and it's not lost on me. Just your first race was about you and shit talking to yourself the whole time, beating yourself up from a critical, you know, fear-based approach. And to the last is like, you were using your environment to give life to, you know, and energy to your husband. Like nobody really does this stuff alone. We do the thing

alone. Even like when we're on a team, like we're, we're executing oftentimes completely by ourself, even though we have a teammate that's right beside us and you don't, you don't have a teammate out there, but so can you talk about that relationship between, um, solitude, aloneness, loneliness, and connection? Yeah. I do a lot of stuff alone. And if I don't have a regular dose of alone, I'm an introvert. And if I don't have quite a bit of time alone, I start to get, I'm not that nice to be around. Um, and so alone doesn't mean loneliness to me. That said, I, I, you know, I have a husband and dogs and I, you know, cherish my community when, when I'm on the trail, like the Iditarod trail alone, at this point, I feel it is for me,

but I also feel kind of a, a responsibility to, to take that story and that experience and share it with people who will never be on the Iditarod trail. And that's, you know, we're circling back a little bit to the trajectory of my career of giving back. And this is what I can give is, you know, I started calling this concept that is coming to me of like, you know, I find, I find myself on the trail. I solve my answers on the trail. I find my purpose on the trail. And I've started calling it Dirt Dharma because it's like, this is where I need to be. It's how I understand my life is with Dirt Dharma.

And even though I was in the snow in Alaska, I'm not alone out there because I feel a responsibility to survive for myself, but to bring these gifts home for, for other people, whether it's bringing it to my husband or bringing it to my riding community or, or people maybe who aren't athletes, um, but still can resonate with a beautiful place and be like, wow, what's Alaska look like in the winter? So I don't feel alone out there. And this year was a very distinct example of the fact that I'm not alone. And I felt so energized and not tired. And yeah, I'm definitely not alone. I actually feel a responsibility now and a purpose that, you know, I'm, I'm the Pied Piper. I'm the messenger for, for some of these lessons and that come from the trail and I need to deliver them

back home to whoever wants to listen and whoever wants to take them. So you referenced Dharma, which is both a Buddhist and well, and Hindu. And so are you coming at it from more of a Buddhist perspective to use that word? I do think some of these, you know, performance and some, yeah, I, I am coming at it from an Eastern philosophy and really that started to happen in 2015, the most important ride of my life. I went and rode the Ho Chi Minh trail

through Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. And that is where my career, um, as an athlete, as a expedition athlete, um, combined with my family and my dad was shot down over there. He was in the Vietnam war. He was a, he was a fighter pilot, um, F4 Phantom, and he didn't come home. And I was three years old and, and many, many, almost 50 years later, you know, I had this idea of like, I wonder if anybody's ridden the Ho Chi Minh trail. I wonder if I could go there. I had this map coordinate and I've always loved maps. I've always loved a paper map and compass. And, and I was drawn to that, that location in the middle of Laos, um, to a tree where, where my dad died. And that expedition really, um, brought into focus my purpose and my reason for being an endurance athlete and my why,

you know, people ask why you've been doing this and it became, I sort of woke up there, you know, standing at the tree and understanding that I could use my bike for a lot more, but really Michael, it's like the six years since that happened, I'm only just now understanding what that ride meant and understanding that I felt my dad's presence there and there was energy and, you know, connecting with another community that were quote unquote enemies. Yeah, that ride really, really changed me. And I think that's where, you know, we stood in some of the temples there and along the ride and I rode with a Vietnamese teammate and we were on the trail for a month, you

know, fully immersed in that culture and that place. And you can't help but be moved when you go in and sit with monks. And, you know, you see a very, remember one specific temple where we already gone to the tree in the place and walked in and, you know, it's all brown and dirt outside and you walk in and it's just the most vibrant colors that you've ever seen in your life. And there's the Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree, you know, of where he found enlightenment. And I'm not claiming I'm enlightened in any way, but this sort of tree image and, you know, the Buddha finding himself under the tree just kind of like almost punched me in the arm to be like, hello, Rebecca, like,

here's, you know, this is what's happening for you. Wake up, you know, here's your tree. You just went to the tree. You're on this, you're on the spiritual journey. And it really was a spiritual journey for me. And it's been, I won't lie. I came back from that trip and I was very lost, very depressed, very down for a couple of years on speaking. What's my purpose? How do you follow up on the most important ride of your life? What does it mean?

What do I do now? Is my competitive spirit gone? You know, really some deep soul searching. And that's where during that period, I started journaling and started writing down some thoughts and developing what I call, you know, my navigational handrails and using that map and compass sort of a theme of, you know, where am I going? Where are we going? And maybe we don't know the exact trail. I don't have a trail map, but I have a much better compass now that is kind of sort of keeping me between the lines a little bit.

And I have to thank my dad for that. And, you know, he's teaching me even in his death, he's not physically here, but there was a big awareness on that trip. And that's where this concept of, you know, it's taken six years, but the concept of dirt Dharma and the principles that I stand for and, and my responsibility to share what I know, that all stems from that ride. And I think it's been building my whole career for a while. All these trails have been all leading to a similar spot. But it's kind of exciting to consciously understand and be able to articulate some of that and listen to some of the messages that have been there for a long time. And are those core values, the risk reward, passion payoff, you know, your give, get less equals more?

Is that? Yeah. I mean, that's basically a pattern of looking back and the, you know, highlights, great things that happened in my life. And I started to look for a pattern and that's what happened during that really dark period of like, well, when I was happy, what was I doing? What things fell into place?

And that's kind of those navigational handrails. And ultimately, you know, my dad, I wrote a mission statement, you know, for myself and kind of stemming from the words that my dad signed all his letters home from the Vietnam War with the words that my dad signed all his letters home from the Vietnam War with the words be good. And so now really be good has become the name of my foundation, my guiding principle. And it really is quite simple, you know, being good to yourself, the environment, the people around you. It's not that hard, but I wasn't listening for a while. Very cool. And then when you throw the word depression out there do do you want me to hear that from a clinical psychologist perspective or like i was just down um you know i didn't go see a clinical psychologist but um you know not being able to get out of bed

for days um not eating you know there's some, I think some classic sort of, uh, symptoms that, you know, and I'm not, I wasn't, I guess, um, diagnosed as depressed, but it was pretty dark time. It seems like that's what depression is. Um, and we're all in a spectrum of it. I don't think anybody, I don't think anybody goes through life without out feeling some of those things, but I mean, well, there's, there's episodes and then there's the cluster of symptoms that lasts longer than 30 days, which if it lasts longer than 30 days and you have a cluster of symptoms of loneliness and sadness and, and, and, and that you go, oh, okay, well that looks like there's a pattern

there. And was it longer than 30 days with a cluster of symptoms that sound and look like depression? Yeah, it was a couple of years of some real highs and lows, you know, some real lows, some okays and some lows again. And it was me trying to figure out the dirt dharma, the navigational tools, really trying to actually understand. And when somebody has a really big life experience, like I did on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, there is very often, and I do this when I come back from expeditions, it's, there's a pattern, a very often a pattern for me, at least of you're on high, high, high. And then you come back and have a very big low. At least I do of wow. Well, what now? Like, how does anything even compare to like what just happened? Probably athletes coming back from the Olympics who are winning, you know, pinnacle gold medals or, or, or whatever, come back and go, well, what do I do now? Or the athletes who went and didn't get a medal, what do I do now? And I'm not saying it's the same experience, but there was definitely a couple of years where I didn't really understand what was

happening. And I probably should have called you up at that time or seen it, seen somebody and talk to somebody, but I use the tool that the only tool that I really knew how, um, and that was journaling that I was forced to do on the trail because we were making a film called blood road. And I have to thank the creative director, Nicholas shrunk for making me write down thoughts every day for the film. And I carried that through. I'm really thankful that he introduced that into my life. And the other thing I knew how to do was to go out and ride my bike. I just go out in nature and I'd go walk my dog. And even though I stopped competing for a while because

there was no motivation, I went into nature. I wrote stuff down and reached out to a very small, you know, on one hand or less group of people who knew what I was going through. So just a couple of notes here. One, I want to highlight that if I have it right, you won an Emmy for Blood Road. Is that right? That's correct. Yeah.

So I want to encourage people to go check out another winning experience that, that you've had here. It's moving. And the other on the, so thank you for producing that, creating that, um, telling that story. The other is that for depression, you know, we're in a really unique time right now where people are talking about mental wellness, you know, and I don't like the word mental health because it sounds like it's a disorder type, you know, conversation, but being well mentally. And if somebody finds themselves in a state of depression, journaling is good. Movement is good. Being outside is good. Volunteering is good.

And if you want, you know, and there's other stuff that's good as well, but those are some basic things that are available to most people, if not all. And, you know, if you want to go fix your car, you go to a mechanic and there's no stigma. You know, I think that we're at a really important time to say, go talk to somebody that spent their whole life to understand how the mind works and how when there's a dark patch or a hard patch, what the navigation waypoints are through it. I will say, I mean, not knowing two years is a long time, Rebecca. Like, you know, like, could we've gotten it down to two months?

I don't know. But, you know, like you navigated without a trail map. There are people that studied 13, 20 years, 13 years, 14 years to get a, you know, PhD and get licensed and all that. But then add another 20 on top of that for someone who's been in the field for a while, like it's, it is a faster path, you know? So it's a cool time that we're at right now. And I'm sorry you had to take, take so long, you know?

Yeah. And I don't know why we don't, and I didn't reach out to professionals and especially as a Red Bull athlete, I had, I had access. I, I think it's more ego, you know, I don't need help. I'm fine. I got this, but yeah, you're right. We have a coach, we have a mechanic, we have all sorts of professionals and that's what they do. And I'm glad that this conversation is so in the forefront for athletes, but for anyone right now. And I have a question for you.

What's maybe some of your favorite tools? If somebody doesn't know you or doesn't have a person, are there some good digital tools that you feel like, you know, like there's all sorts of meditation apps and things like that. Is there a tool that you like for mental wellness that you feel like is accessible to the masses? Yeah, I think that there's a cool question. Thank you. There's not one tool that will do it. And it is a little bit I liked how you talk about the motivational menu. There's a bit of a menu to pull from. And if we kind of zoom out and we look at like the kind of the longer arc of life,

people that understand and do some work on the big questions of life will have a better go at it. And there's some science there. So like when we look at the bit on fulfillment in life, people that wrestle with the hard questions tend to, when they look at the, the bid on fulfillment in life, people that wrestle with the hard questions are tend to, when they are near the end of life, feel more fulfilled. So that's one, uh, relationships. And it's not having people that love you, but having people that you can share love with. It's another big rock and that's available to all of us. You know, again, you get it wrong when it's like, I just wish I had an intimate relationship where somebody loved me. No, no, no. How, how, how well can you share love with others? Meditation and mindfulness, certainly there's

so much good research around that for anxiety, depression, and overall wellbeing as well. Exercise, but not exercise to the overtraining standpoint because that can look just like in depression so moving well with proper recovery in place cognitive behavioral therapy is a well-studied and understood approach to anxiety and depression so is act as a modality. So awareness, commitment, therapy, or training. And so there's a bit more of a gentle approach there to becoming familiar with your thoughts and working with your thoughts. I said volunteering, I said exercise, I said nutrition, being outside is a good one. So there's a whole handful of things that you are doing well. And probably the CBT or the eight or the act would be the one that we would add to that mix. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone doesn't have a personal guide like you are there. And, you know,

they can look at that menu. But like for me, I had, I sort of had that menu, but is there, I mean, is there a cool app or is like there's there's meditation apps that are pretty good and that is that's a big rock to get in the container you know yeah and i don't know of a one-stop shop for um mental well-being i haven't seen it yeah it's it's probably it's probably being built right now which is like yeah i mean I mean, that's great. And there are, like you said, the meditation apps are great. Everyone can go walk, hopefully, or move in the way that you can move. I found that when I was writing the book, when we talked about that, my dog was actually a very good therapist, because I'd sit there and pound my head against the desk. And the dog diesel would come up and put his head on my leg and kind of be like, Come on, we need to go outside. And I'd go for a walk for 15 minutes, come back in and ideas would start flowing again. And I was like, oh, okay, I should move. I should be in nature every once in a while. So if you have a dog and you're stuck on a problem, go take them for a walk. It's so good. And, you know, like getting away, pushing yourself back from a desk is really important, you know, and not kind of just staying and grinding.

But the other thing that dogs do, so the mechanism of going outside is good. The mechanism of walking is good. The mechanism of pushing back from your desk is good. But there's another thing that dogs offer, which is non-judgmental interest without critique, without, you know, judging or, or belittling. They're just interested. And that is a emblem for the way that we can treat others. And it's an emblem for the way that we can treat ourselves. You know, your first, your first exercise in the cold, it was like the exact opposite of what your dog does. Right. And the last was the exact, you know, mechanism that your

dog gives you, which is like, Hey, I'm good. Like I'm gonna share a little good with you too. You know? So yeah, it's great. Like animals, uh, they have a way about doing that. Well, and there's also, isn't the tactile sensation. I mean, that's also releases neural chemicals. You've had a dog from my understanding. So there's, there's all sorts of things. So I will say though, I have a girl dog, Gracie. So I will add this to you is that there is something very important about being around others that are calm. And so if your dog is mellow and just like, you know, wants to have a walk or is excitable because it's excited, it's looking forward to something, it's a very positive, if you will, or an accelerant towards excitement or calmness. Just like with people, if you're around people that are anxious

or depressed, agitated, angry, frustrated, that affects us. And so this is one of the reasons that we think from a really interesting neurobiological standpoint is when you are rattling, say you are really scared, really sad, really frustrated, highly depressed, and you're with a trained professional that can hold the space in a grounded, clear, calm, compassionate way, just that relationship in of itself holds for maybe 60, 70% of the outcomes. And so that's kind of cool too. If you can offer that to your loved ones. Yeah.

I mean, and what you're touching on is part of that sort of energy work that I've become more aware of. Yeah. We all know when you walk in a room, if somebody's, you know, super amped, you pick up on that. Or if you walk into the room and everybody's, you know, listening to Miles Davis, it's a different experience. And so, yeah, just like humming and energy work and like bringing ourselves down from this, like super high vibration to a lower vibration. I've been conscious of that during my rides, like standing on the start line. We all

know that feeling of just, you know, being hyper anxious. And of course you have to be tuned and ready, but you don't have to be spinning out of control and like a, such a high vibration because it actually doesn't serve. And so I'm starting to understand that, which is really cool. And part of what I took to Alaska too. And I'm doing now with just you know like vibrational like um crystal bowls and things that just if you are in a weird vibration get yourself back down you now lost me i lost you with a crystal ball okay but like it's like if you sing say when people sing okay so i can i can make some leaps here i can definitely make some leaps like and i was going to make a a good solid leap i think which is um alpha beta theta delta gamma brain waves yes and so we can call it energy but i'll prefer to call this just this part of the

conversation um brain waves and when you're at a starting gate and you have too much beta too anxious if you will yeah it's not good but you do need some of that switched on beta. And so not enough theta or too much theta, which is a very mellow brainwave, we got a problem. We're not switched on. So I love where you're going with that type of that part of the conversation. And when you sing and there's a vibration and all of that, I get lost there. I just don't know the science well enough. And I will say when I go to like a sound bath or I'll do like a drum circle or something like that, I feel different. I don't know the science of it. Okay. And so I just, I need to laugh a little bit. I

need to say, I need to learn more. And well, that's, what's so cool is there science and the, the sort of ancient techniques or things that have always been there are coming together. And, and I know there's an explanation that I don't have of like, you listen, listen to a certain, you know, vibrational note, maybe it's an F key or whatever that is going to make that brainwave, you know, in line, you're going to hear more of that. And so somebody smarter than, than both of us maybe could explain it, but there is a connection that I'm kind of trying to uncover a little bit, but it happens in music. It happens, you know, in lots of different sounds. And it has to do with your brain. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down with that for sure. Okay. So let me go back to you. What are you craving? What are you really searching for?

Wow. Yeah, that's okay. I knew you were're gonna stump me and you did it um that's not the purpose but yeah no i i appreciate that you're making me think because yeah i have a lot you know i even took notes while we're sitting here talking you are a learner what do i crave um and i understand that's a complicated word from a buddhist perspective it's really complicated i'm trying to think of a really short answer yeah put let's create a forcing function and put it into um one or two words what i crave i crave i crave purpose and mobility.

What is your heart longing for? Peace. And what do you do to prepare yourself and practice for peace? Go outside. Breathe. Turn off digital devices when was the last time you felt peace this weekend and so that was three or four days ago yes yeah that was a 22 hours on the bike with my husband in to remote Idaho. We did a little overnighter. And is it hard to find a sense of peace when you're not exhausted?

Yes. It is. Okay. a lot of these tools that I we've been talking about, you know, with meditation and, and mindfulness and, you know, sound, um, because I am really trying to take what I know on the bike and in movement. And I'm trying to bring that into and starting to, into my still world and into sort of regular life, so to speak. speak okay so remember we talked about right at the beginning we talked about like double clicking getting into some best practices and you talked about sleep as being one of them um you talked about meditation i don't know what the other ones were but what are you doing to how do you prepare for sleep i prepare for sleep um well first i've prioritized sleep. I think that's,

that is the first thing is, is understanding that it is really is our magic pill that we can take. It's, it's an understanding the science behind it's really cool. Instead of being like, Oh, I should sleep eight hours a night. Somebody said that, you know, my grandma said that, but understanding the science and all the cool stuff that happens when you sleep. Um, so it has motivated me. And so first it was understanding it, motivating me, prioritizing it and realizing that, um, even though I do events where I don't sleep, um, I don't want to carry that into my regular life so preparing for sleep is you know there's the regular bedtime um we have a great mattress i wear an eye cover um i've got this cool little beamer device a circulation mat that's under my bed um is that but really i do what's that

is that a grounding mat it's a, it's a pulse electromagnetic therapy. So, yeah. That's a cheap way of me saying grounding. Oh, cool. Yeah. So it's a grounding mat. So I turn that little thing on. The dogs come up.

Everybody comes up. There's kind of a ritual of getting the dogs and everybody up in the bed. And we open the windows. we keep our bedroom pretty cool. Yeah, those those are the main things. I mean, it's not super complicated. And okay, yeah, super simple. And then what, when it comes to habits, what are some core habits that you're like, Hey, listen, I, and you might say, I'm not really interested in habits. You know, like I, I like the free flowing of things more, but if you have some habits, what are the core ones? I'm trying to have better habits because I do, do realize actually, if you look back, you know, I have a lot of bad habits of like

plop down in front of the TV or like, you know, I'm tired. So then I just like lay around. And part of that is, is understanding that we actually get energy from different incident. Like if you don't feel high energy or if I don't feel high energy, typically it's been like, I want to lay, I want to lay down and do nothing. Uh, but understanding that actually walking or gardening or actually a little bit of movement, um, will build energy instead of take it away. Um, and I feel that on the bike, you know, people would be like, how can you ride 10 hours and still do it. And it's because I'm gaining energy from the place that I am. And, and so I'm adapting some of my rituals. So they aren't so sloth. Like, I know people will laugh and they're like, there's no way you're lazy or whatever,

but I am. Um, and, and so some of the rituals are, you know, in the morning, you know, drinking green juice or water before I drink the coffee, you know. Ditto. Yeah, I do the same. I'm actually. Yeah. Yes. So I'm using athletic greens, which you'll be familiar with. I drop a little bit of lemon, a little MCT oil, and then a little pinch of Himalayan salt.

Oh, cool. And so, yeah, just for some of those interesting minerals that come with Himalayan salt. And then the lemon is just for an interesting taste, but it's also got some cool enzymes that I'm interested in. And then MCT allows me to fuel my brain before it gives me a little bit of a buffer to support the autophagy process, the autophagy process. And so, which is just kind of the cleaning out mechanism that we go through. Yeah. I've been doing athletic greens and beet, some beet powder.

What do you think about that? Yeah. The beet properties are awesome, aren't they? Yeah. And it tastes good. It mixes well with the athletic greens. It does. I haven't tried it. And then do you have a spiritual framework that you're working from? Yes and no. I feel like I'm a spiritual explorer right now. And a lot of that trends towards

Eastern philosophies and a lot of the stuff that we've already been talking about. But I'm still formulating it kind of as a menu, so to speak. What happens after we physically die? I believe our spirit is here. I believe that because of my experience with my dad. He's been here my whole life. I just wasn't listening. And that became really apparent in Laos by that tree, you know, when they didn't identify his remains until 2007. And so he was shut down in 1972. So we didn't know what happened. In 2007, they had

a ceremony at Arlington. They had a whole, you know, thing. And honestly, it felt very empty to me. I didn't feel his presence. I didn't, I felt the other people around the other veterans, my family, but it wasn't, I, I didn't feel connected. It was just sort of an empty casket and empty thing. But when I went to that tree in Laos, like my dad was there and it was, I'd never experienced anything like that before. And all of a sudden it became really apparent that he's been, he's been showing up for me a lot. And so I do believe that, that our spirits are moving around and that people affect each other and energy affects other people in, in, in many ways. And the more I talk to people the more people are experiencing that like their dog or their grandpa or something will like make them think of that person and and it's

not coincidence it's actually the energy is there when when somebody's physical body is gone I do believe that that their spirit is is a little, is in all the people that you've touched. And it's all around. And then that's part of my mission now is to help people get outside and move and to live really healthy, happy life and leave an amazing legacy for the people who will come after them. I mean, my dad died in 1972 and he's, he's part of me.

And one of the things I really had to tell the film crew of Blood Road, it kept saying, people have said, oh, it must've been closure when you got to go to the place where your dad died. I was like, no, no, no, no. It was the opposite. It was a total door opening for me of like all this stuff, my career. And, and, and it's because I, I felt him and his presence. And so I don't believe when we die at all ends, um, it's just a different form, a different shape, but I do believe that while we're here, we, we have a responsibility to, to be good. I love that. So I want to go back. Remember I asked about 16 year old, what do you wish a 16 year old girl, um, what about a 26 year old woman? 26. Oh, um,

kind of just after the college years, I'd say 26, just frigging go for it. Like break the rules, go for it. You know, take the risk, do the thing that seems outrageous. And that's about when I moved into my car and quit my dream job. It was like, mom, I'm gonna live, I'm gonna live out of this truck for a while. And I don't regret it for a second. So yeah, just go for it at 26. And then how about a 26 year old male? Same, go exploring, you know, find out there, there is no path that says, you know, high school, college, graduate school, like that's the age of exploration and, and to find, find a little bit of a path. And people will ask, you know, Oh, when did you plan to be a

professional athlete or this or that? It, I didn't, I just, I followed my heart. I did some, I wanted to go rock climbing. That was literally I did some, I wanted to go rock climbing. That was literally all it was. I wanted to go rock climbing. So I lived in my car and went rock climbing for a while. And that took me on this trajectory of professional athlete or whatever else. And so male, female, I'd say that age, you know, we have three intellectual centers in our body, you know, our mind, our heart and our gut. And just go with your heart at that age and just listen to that instead of the brain saying, I should get this job. I should do that.

God, I love that. What do you hope entrepreneurs would be able to understand that you've come to understand? For entrepreneurs, there's no trail map. There's no map. There's just a compass. Get out a machete and bushwhack a little bit. Just make the path. That's the thing. There's a compass, but not a trail. I love that. And then for executives, people in a big business, whether it's 20 people or 200,000. For executive, it's that, um, that we're all human, the human race or part of the human race where no one is special. No one's unique. And then what is something that has been said to you that changed your life? Be good. There you go, dad. I, you, you you kind of got i got a little teared up you know there with that

question thanks for asking that do you i was i would want to turn the question on you what are what is do you have a mantra saying something that someone said to you that's really stuck yeah i think um i've had lots but there's one in particular one of my mentors or my mentor not one of them but my mentor um there's things that my wife says to me that really matters and you know i used to let me just kind of give a preamble to get to the question is that or the answer is that people oftentimes will ask me like okay well what's different about elite athletes or the best in the world or whether they're artists or whatever or executives? And I'll say, I used to try to understand the psychological characteristics and traits and skills and kind of go from that lenses. And now I'm coming to learn that the relationships matter so much.

Like I'm not saying I am that person, but I am doing my very best. And I don't think I could stay the path of doing my very best without my wife. Yeah. And so, um, I'm so grateful, you know, eternally grateful for that. So, so, so the things that she says on a regular basis is, is a reminder, like when it's really hard, like, um, you know, Mike, you're, you're amazing. Like you can figure this out. Like, like you can totally figure this out. Mike, you can totally, like that kind of supportive nature and encouragement has been, um, an amazing gift.

And so that's one. And the other is my mentor. Uh, I think I was like probably 20 something years old. He says, Mike, you know, you're pretty special. He says, and you're really insignificant in this world. He says, so I hope you carry both of those at all points in your life. And I was like, what the hell does that mean? You know, like I was feeling really good.

He's like, you're pretty special. And then he's like, you're really insignificant. You know, we've been around thousands and thousands of years. And so, you know, so I think that the duality of those two and the non-duality of just be here and be present has been an important gift to me. So those are a couple. Those are good ones. Yeah, those are good. Yeah, they feel good to say them out loud too.

So thank you. All right, where are we taking folks? Let's go to your website. What do you think? Rebecca with two Cs? Rebecca with two Cs and last name R-U-S-C-H, Rush. That's so good. Yeah, it's a good last name.

Thanks, Dad. I know, that is a good one. And so you can find everything there that you're into supporting your books or your book, your movie, your events that you're putting on. And you've got an upcoming event. And for some people that listen to this too late, it won't matter,

but you've got an event coming up. Yeah. The website is my name, Rebecca rush.com. And it's got, you know, book movie foundation speaking events that I do. I also do a little bit of a training program that, that is kind of a holistic, you know, yeah, it's physical training with my, my cycling coach, Tim Cusick, but it also includes some of these other things and some of my experience. So yeah, there's some, some cool stuff digitally online. And you know, my goal, we already talked about it is, is to, to get more people moving in the outdoors for their own health and happiness and for the health and happiness of our entire world.

So whether you join me at an event or listen to this, like, I hope you get out there and get outside. I love it. And I, you know, I also want to just add a quick little footnote is that we're talking about depression and whatever. And we didn't talk about the value of medication that, um, it is one of the recommended, you know, um, protocols, if you will, for folks that are struggling. So medication, there's a place for medication. And so I just want to make sure that we also de-stigmatize that, but also increase the menu, if you would, to use your early language about other things that you can do that might be a first-line defense or first-line opportunity as opposed to medication. So I want to make sure I come back full circle on that.

Absolutely. And I would love to invite you on a bike ride sometime in Idaho or a hike or something. We can continue this conversation outside somewhere. I would love that. Let's figure that out. How about it? Awesome. Yeah, good.

Okay, good. Hey, Rebecca, thank you for everything that you're doing and thank you for the time here and the sharing your wisdom and your commitment to truth is evident. And so I just want to say thank you. It was really fun. I appreciated our chat. Finally, we got to talk. More to come.

Let's do it. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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