Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Fleeting Nature of Flow State | USWNT Captain, Becky Sauerbrunn

Episode Date: September 16, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Becky Sauerbrunn, an American soccer player, Olympic gold medalist and two time FIFA Women's World Cup champion.A veteran defender for the United States women's national soccer team, she also plays for the Portland Thorns in the National Women's Soccer League, the highest division of women's soccer in the United States.Becky is a 4-time NWSL Defender of the Year and 7-time NWSL First XI selection.In this conversation, Becky shares what’s it’s like to be at her best… which she describes as fleeting.It’s those moments where everything slows down and she can see the play happening before it actually happens… every decision she makes is the right … and she’s completely present.Those moments are elusive though and so we unpack what gets in her way._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And I want to give a big thanks to everyone that recently purchased the Compete to Create Audible book that I just released with the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll. Hope you tuned into our first game as well. It was awesome that the NFL season is back and rolling. And if you haven't checked it out, the book, the Audible book, you can find that on our website, competetudible book. You can find that on our website, CompeteToCreate.net. Now, the whole idea behind this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery,

to better understand what they're searching for, their psychological framework, how they use their mind to understand their life, explain events, to consider their future. And we also want to dig to be able to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools,, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers

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World Cup champion. As a veteran defender to the United States women's national soccer team, she also plays for the Portland Thorns in the National Women's Soccer League, the highest division of women's soccer in the United States. And not only is she playing, but she's an influencing member. She's a disruptive member, a contributor in a meaningful way to the team. Four-time NWSL Defender of the Year and seven-time NWSL First Eleven Selection. So she's flat out making contributions in a big way now. So in this conversation, Becky shares what it's like to be at her best, which she also describes as being fleeting. So we're starting to double click under here and talk about flow state

or the zone or what musicians call being in the pocket. So why is it fleeting? Because it is a full syncopation of your mind and your body being in the same place, doing the same thing, and having awareness of what's taking place, all in the same moment. So when Becky talks about this being fleeting, it is for most of us. And this is why this podcast, these conversations, investing in your inner life, training your mind is so paramount. Because while it is fleeting, it doesn't mean it has to be scarce. It doesn't mean that it's only every so rare often. So the whole game here of the inner life, of training your inner life, your mind, is so that you can be in the present moment more often. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Becky Sauerbrunn. Becky, how are you?

I am doing fine. Thank you. How are you? Yeah. Where are you in the planet? I'm in Portland, Oregon right now. Okay. And so have you lived there most of your life? Is that where you grew up or is this a choice that you've made to live there? This is a choice. I've been here for about five years. And before that, I did a stint in Denver. And then before that, I was in Washington, DC. And then I was born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri. Okay.

So what brought you to the West Coast? My boyfriend works for Adidas. And so North American headquarters are here. And so luckily, my job is quite, you know, I can travel for my job. So really, it was him and his job. So I just followed him here. Yeah, there you go. Okay.

Three World Cups. Is that right? That is right. Yes. Yeah. Look at that. And won a gold in the Olympics in London. How about it? Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Like I'm so happy to talk to you because, you know, you've got this really rich experience and the perspective that comes with that, you can't read about it, you have to earn it, you can't buy it. And so I want to dig to understand some of that perspective, like how you approach life, how you understand yourself. And so let's start with, is there a difference for you between the Olympic Games and World Cups? For me, no, there isn't. I look at both of those

as world tournaments and yes, they're different for the Olympics. You're part of team USA. You're not, it's not a focus just on women's soccer, but I think Americans hold the Olympics on such a pedestal and I do as well. And then you have the world cup, which is just for women's soccer and all the spotlight is on biggest dance ever, or the approach is, nope, same rules, same size ball, same number of defenders, same, same, same, same. It's another game that I want to be great at. And so I'm going to treat it the same. So which way do you go into world championships and the Olympics? For me, it's the latter. And I think externally, there's pressure that's put on us that's different from just a regular friendly that we would compete in.

But for me, I approach it the same way because I know that allows me to be able to play and be at my best. Okay. So let's talk about your best. Are you trying to be better than others or are you trying to be able to play and be at my best. Okay. So let's talk about your best. Is it, are you trying to be better than others or are you trying to be your best? I'm trying to be my best. Okay. And if we pull on that thread a little bit, how do you describe your best? That's a great question. My best is fleeting at times because I think I get to moments in my performance where, you know, you hear about these ideal performance zones where everything kind of slows down and you see plays happening before they actually happen and you're making the right decisions and you're just completely present. And I would say that's my best. And I don't get there a lot at all. But for me, that's the addicting part is like, can I get that to happen more and more often? Okay. So what you're describing, the science of that is called flow state.

And in the athletic world, we call it the zone. Musicians call it being in the pocket. You just call it the good place, whatever. So that's what you're talking about, right? Like when action and awareness kind of fuse together and it's as if you're kind of floating and dancing and it's just seamless, you know, completely on time with what you're doing. Is that right? A hundred percent. Okay. I love asking this question. What percentage of the time do you get there? So, so low, I would say 5% if I'm lucky. And then were you thinking about 5% in games or you think in 5% total life or you think in 5% games plus practice? What does that 5% mean for you? I'm doing the 5% with games and training. So any sort of preparation. Okay. So when you got a ball at your foot, about 5% of the time you can get into that sweet spot. Yes. Okay. So then the other 95% of the time,

let's start like kind of almost like a hierarchy, right? Like, so that's the place that you're searching, like to spend more time and you'd like to get to 6%, 10%, whatever, right? 90% would be great, but that's, I don't know anyone that says that. So, um, what's right underneath that? What's like your ideal mindset when it's really good to be you? When it's really good to be me, uh, confident, uh, intuitive, not second guessing. Like I'm trusting my instinct technique is, is secure. It's on point. Um, just I'm focused. I'm, I'm present. I'm bringing people along with me. Um, and I'm communicating, like I feel good communicating. People are listening. People are receptive. I'm receptive. Oh, so you're relational. Very much so you are. Okay. So is

that the center of your approach to life and or ball or is it more just about ball for you? No, I would say a lot of it is relationship. And I think ball gets better because of my relationships with the people around me. Okay. And then are we going too fast? Because I got so many questions. Yeah, because the relationship piece is really important. So I've got this axiom I live by, which is that through relationships we become. And if I pull on that a little bit, it's through my relationship with myself, through my relationships with others, through my relationship with mother nature, I become the man that I'm working on becoming. And then there's a subtlety

in there. Like I already am that man. I just can't always access it. You know? So it's not like it's out there later somewhere else. I already am it. It's just my consistency of being about it. That's what I'm trying to do. So it's almost like, um, the heartbeat inside me gets bigger, you know? And so like, I just have a deeper connection to that natural rhythm as opposed to like, I'm just a, I don't know, I'm a different version today than I want to be one day later. You know, it's not like that. So, so relationships are important to me as well. So can we talk about for you, um, your relationship with yourself? Like, it seems like you like yourself, but I don't know that. I don't want to be presumptuous here. You know, like, you're a good smile, good laugh,

good thinker. I would say I struggle with myself. And I think it's gotten better as I've gotten older. And I've kind of come to realize things about myself that caused a lot of conflict when I was younger. Like I've recently, recently learned that I'm an introvert. And so there are times when I need to disconnect and I need to get away from everything to be able to recharge my batteries and get back into the grind the next day. And so I think being able to manage the people around me, but still knowing that I would, you know, take a bullet for almost everyone in my life. Um, it's, but still knowing that I would, you know, take a bullet for almost everyone in my life. It's, it's something that I've gotten more used to and being able to express that and communicate that to people so that they understand that about me and they don't

get the wrong impression. I think it's really enriched a lot of those relationships. I love that because once you had the awareness, the insight, like, ooh, there's this thing called introversion and I am it, that you started to be able to communicate more gracefully to other people. As I would imagine your younger self was like, God, I just got to get away. And then, right, like, I just need my space. Jeez, people are bugging me. Like, I mean, I'm making this up for you. And then as we learn more, then we say like, oh, you know what? Hey, I love you.

I just got to tell you, I'm kind of like at this place where I just am craving alone time. So can we connect back in tomorrow or a couple hours? Is it like that more for you? It's 100% like that. And it's been tough because playing with the national team, I mean, we are living together. I have a roommate. We're having meals together. So I've had to find ways to carve out space

for me to find that time so that I can be at my best. I love this because it's a little bit like going to, I say this, I learned this in high school. Like I didn't want to drink and I didn't want to do that in high school. I grew up in an addict family and I saw some stuff that was hard and I was like, I don't want to go down that path. And so in high school, I was really clear. I learned, but this is the strategy I learned. I just need to say it one, two, three times. Like, hey man, you want some, you want something? Hey man. One, two, three times. And then people were like, no, I don't drink, leave him alone. And so it's like, once I knew, and then I could act on it. And it's like, once you knew,

then you can act on it. I bet people, I don let me let me ask do people respond to you like okay Becky needs her alone time now like they just get that that's part of it yeah they definitely about it a little bit because I do play on a team full of extroverts so sometimes they don't understand but they care enough about me that they'll allow me to have that space. Okay. All right. So you did something really interesting already. As I said the question, I knew that I took you down a path. And in my head, I edited like, oh, you didn't leave it open. And the question I was asking is, I said, seems like you like yourself.

But then you did something really powerful. It caught me. And you said, well, actually, so you made the choice to be honest as opposed to go with the social acceptance flow of this conversation. So that honesty that takes vulnerability and courage to do so, I'm imagining that's one of your superpowers. I'm imagining that's one of your superpowers. I'm imagining that's one of your crown jewels. Or did you just get lucky? You just happened in this time to be courageously honest. But I'm imagining that if you could do it here, you'd probably do it in lots of places. I would say that that's a pretty tenant of who I am and who I want to be is that I'm, I'm honest with people

about my struggles. Um, I try to be empathetic. And so I, you know, am aware of other people's struggles. And so I, I think the, I respond really well when people are honest and vulnerable. So I've tried to then also take that into my own way of approaching things. Honest. So, so few people are able to know how they want to be in life and then be about it. Like that's a, it's a rare thing. And so where did that come from for you? And by the way, as an elite athlete, there's a corollary here, right? Which is you see how you want to do something. And then what you've done is orientated your life to be able to do that on command, whether it came from your imagination or a coach

saying, Hey, look at this or whatever, but then you're not looking for shortcuts or hacks or secrets. There's no tricks and tips, right? Like you are, you've orientated fundamentally organized your life to be about it. And I'm imagining that's why it was easy for you to make that choice to be authentic. Now, as I get off my pedestal here, like, I really enjoy this conversation already a lot. And so, yeah. So how, what, what led you down this path? I think knowing and being very self-aware of my fallibility and the mistakes that I've made and being honest with those people that have also made mistakes. I think just growing up, I feel like you get better feedback that way. If you're honest, if you're honest with yourself, you can kind of analyze and be like, why am I feeling this way? And you can just start to make sense of like your

emotions or why you make certain decisions and why other people make certain decisions. And so it's just become something that I just, I just grew with. And then was there something that stirred up the want and the desire to be in this type of groove, which is an authentic, honest relationship with others? Is there like a single event? Or a series, or maybe it was something that was part and parcel of your family philosophy or structure, or did something happen where you're like, oh my God, I'm sick of this the other way? I would actually say that my family and growing up, we were not a demonstrative family. And so I don't think we were very honest with our feelings and

emotions with one another. And so I think that, you know, kind of stunted me a little bit. And so when you kind of, you know, leave the nest, which I did go to college, I felt like I, I wasn't creating these really tight relationships with people and I didn't understand why. And so I think once I realized, like, if I was honest with how I was feeling, if I was empathetic, if I listened, those relationships kind of just got more and more deep. And I realized, like, I don't want quantity. I want quality. And so, you know, leaving college, I have, you know, leaving high school, I would say I probably only had one or two friends I even stay in touch with. And then leaving college, just so many more people. And so I just feel like my life has just been more and more enriched because of that.

There you go. Okay. in your life? You know, maybe even, I'm not sure we're totally ready to talk about this, you know, across, um, public forums, but like when you think about the dark side of being one of the best, is there one for you? Has there been a dark side for you? Yeah, I feel, I feel like in some ways my life has been put on pause. I do have people that I have really good relationships with, but they are kind of in that soccer sphere. And so I don't really have a lot of people outside of that. And even my boyfriend, I've been with him for 14 years since college.

He played soccer, so he understands me. And so all my deep relationships are within this like single world. And I feel like the dark side is that I do sometimes feel disconnected to life. And, you know, I'm getting older and it's like the idea of starting a family and like, am I ready to do that? Or ending the soccer chapter and then going into that next, what am I going to do? What's my job going to be? Because I'm not making walking away money. So I need to consider what are those next steps? And am I even prepared? I've dedicated my life to my craft. And so I feel like I've kind of missed out on a lot of other things. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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chip in a young age, you become skilled in one area. You know, not everyone is fortunate enough to have this raw talent that you have and the work ethic that you have to refine the skill. But this is one of the deep costs of chipping in is that there's a narrowing of the gaze. And you're also known as to being like, what's your nickname? Like the poet? What was that nickname? I think it was in one of the World Cups when you came back all bandaged up and beat up. Oh, I don't know. Yeah. It was something about being a poet, like the courageous poet or something. I'll look that up in a minute. Warrior poet.

That's it. Yeah. Okay. Warrior poet. So you love reading. That's where that comes from. Love it. Love it.

And so is this your way to learn about other worlds and other ways? And is it more of an escape? It's more than an escape, but it is my way of learning. And I mean, I'm just so fascinated. I go towards sci-fi and fantasy because I'm just really interested in the roles that don't apply to how we live. And so fantasy, you know, there's like magic, like in Harry Potter. And then you have sci-fi where like, things are just elevated. Science hasn't reached where these stories are yet, but they're still possible. But it's just fun because it's just completely different from

our day to day. So like that, that part of the escapism and just reading in general, I think is very enriching. And you, like you said, you just learn so much that, and you feel things that you don't normally feel during a regular day. And so that part is also very addicting. Okay. What is it like to be in your mind? I think it's a little chaotic. It's a little cynical at times, a lot of struggle, but a lot of passion. Where's the passion come from? I think the passion comes from when it's related to sport, it's what makes you feel alive. Passion for other people, just wanting them to be happy and to be the best versions of themselves. And so I feel like in that sense, I'm pretty empathetic when it comes to other people,

because I feel that. I feel what they're, if I can, I try to feel what they're feeling and help in any way possible. And sometimes it's completely futile, but I think just being there to listen is also very powerful. Why cynical? I wish I wasn't. But I tend to think the worst of myself when I think in a lot of times it's just completely unfair and irrational, but it's something that I've been trying to work on is, you know,

I always go to like the worst case scenario of everything. Is that pessimism or anxiety or self-critique? Cynicism is like, and it can work. Like, why would you even bother? Pessimism is like, hey, I really don't think that things work out. An the anxiety is like, Hey, I don't, I don't, I don't really know. Like, can it work out? You think it can work out? You know? So like when, if you sharpen it a little and then self critique is like, I'm so fill in the blank negative, you know? So if you sharpen a little bit, would you still choose cynicism? No, I would, if, when you say it like that, cynicism is, is not like, I would still put

in the effort, even knowing that what I was doing was futile. So not cynicism. Am I pessimistic at times? Absolutely. Am I self-critical? A hundred percent. So on the pessimism, this is where I wanted to go is when it's, let's create a scenario and you've got hundreds of these thousands. It's your back is to your goal.

There's a charge coming. Let's say it's a tie game. End of the game. Okay. Maybe it's a fast break and you're kind of alone. Right? You got your keeper in the back behind you. And you can feel this momentum swing and this momentum shift that's happening.

And they're coming. They're coming. And you know at some level, like, okay, here I am not pessimistic when it comes to other people, sometimes with myself, sure. But I would say like, for the most part, if I had all these attackers bearing down on me, I'm thinking logically, I'm thinking angles, I'm thinking what space can I lead them to that'll take them away from more dangerous space. So when it comes down to that sort of situation, it becomes very analytical and the emotion is out of it. Okay. Now let's say they get an angle, is a nice little cross to the middle, ball in the back of the net, and it's clearly your misstep. Okay. They're up 2-1 and there's 40 seconds to go. Now what? What happens in your mind now?

What happens in my mind now is- One of the best defenders on the planet. Literally run to the goal, get the ball out of the net, throw it so that we can start the game because I have faith that we're still going to generate one or two chances to tie this thing up. What I'm thinking to myself is everyone's looking at me right now. Everyone knows that I made a mistake. I know I made a mistake. So my body language and the presence that I choose to exude at this moment is very important for everyone that's watching me at this moment. And so I've made that mistake in a World Cup, just this World Cup in 2019. I'm the reason a goal gets scored against Spain and we're tied up.

So, and that's what I chose to do. People are like, it's okay. It's okay. And I'm like, yeah, it is okay. Like, we're fine. We've still got all these minutes to play. And luckily we have special players on my team that, yeah, they bailed me out. But I chose in that moment not to be defeated and not to show defeat.

Three times in this conversation, this is how I measure success for me, is daily success, is how many times does my hair stand up, you know, where it's like a moment where like, oh, look, we're right on the truth of something. And so three times. And so it just happened again. So, and it's this mixture with you of the honesty and the purity about what you're describing. Also when the stakes are high, but this idea that you make the choice, you determine. So great awareness first, you are focused on next being better.

And right. And then you're aware that, okay, I need to present myself in a particular way. And this is what I chose to do. I chose to be a defender. Okay. So you're an optimist. This is not pessimism. Pessimism is like, oh boy. Yep. This is what happens to me. Yeah. This is what happens to us. Things don't really work out, but let's give it our best. I don't know a pessimist on the world stage. Maybe you do. Can you be a pessimist with yourself, but then an optimist for other people? I'm saying it like, I suck. I'm no good. I'm going to blow it. You can go down this razor sharp edge of yourself and then unfortunately look out to others and think that they are like already on the pedestal. You know, like we can have this dissonance that they're special and I'm not. I don't know if that's what you're doing, but it is possible. But for the most part,

the way that we speak to ourselves is really how we think about others for the most part. And so, but I want to learn what you're doing because it sounds like you're harder on yourself than you are on others. Like you're a supporter of others and a critique of self. That's very fair. Okay. And then how does that work for you? How do you do that? By the way, right now you're changing lives for people.

Right now, like people that are listening right now are like, oh, I think I do that too. She's the best in the world. Wait a minute. She does that? So you're about to change some serious lives right now. Well, geez, not to put too much emphasis on this conversation. Not too much. It's not too big. But before you go further, Becky, I lived it. I flat out lived this too. It's, it's uncomfortable. I mean, I, I also, I mean, like you said, um, sometimes I do feel inferior to the people around me and I, I feel like I'm, I'm part of a special team and I'm also kind of like, how did I get here? And because I feel that way, my preparation and what I do behind the scenes with the people around me is to like prove to

them and to myself every single day that I do deserve to be here. And I'm not going to let you down. I will try really hard not to let you down. Sometimes I will. But just know that I'm trying to do everything in my power to make sure I don't. Yeah. Okay. So that's called imposter syndrome. Yes, I do have that. Yeah. Okay. Check. I understand it too. Matter of fact, like some of the, one of the world-class universities, it's highly encouraged that incoming professors take this course that they offer. This is Stanford in a little mini course called imposter syndrome. Cause day one, day year one, you know, they're

looking around like they're going to find out I got lucky. I got lucky in my interview process. Okay. So imposter syndrome helps you sharpen the sword. Yes. So one of the things, an insight that I have, I'd love for you to chin check this if you will, but self-critique will get you good. Some anxiety will get you good, but it doesn't get you free. And when we get free is when we really embrace our best, you know, so like good to great model. Chin check me if I'm off on that for you. No, I think that's correct. And that's, that's probably why that I say 5% when I get into that, to that flow zone. Okay. So then it's, so then your work, if I'm tracking correctly, your work is really about like, okay, well, I need to recognize when I'm hypercritical

or whatever I'm going to call this thing and then have the right skills and tools to say, ah, get over it. Yeah. Lifelong journey right there. Lifelong journey. How do you do it? When it works well, there's lots of skills. What are the ones that are working for you? First, the whole game is awareness.

If you're not aware of this thing, you can't do anything about it. So step one, awareness. But then step two on the skill part, what are some of awareness. If you're not aware of this thing, you can't do anything about it. So step one, awareness. But then step two on the skill part, what are some of the skills that you employ, whether it's in the moment or it's always in the moment? Strike that. What are some of the skills you employ? I'm being super self-critical. I try to analyze like what part of the game am I being so critical about?

Is it a technical issue? Am I emotionally not in the right mindset? And so from there, I can kind of narrow it down to one of like a quadrant. And then if it's a technical issue, my skill is like, do the next thing simply. Don't overcomplicate it. For me, it's like make a tackle, connect your first pass.

And so that's what I try to do after every mistake. Like the next time it's not going to be a mistake. It's just gonna be a simple pass. It might not lead to a goal, but you know what, we kept possession and that's, you know, a check in the win, the win area. Okay. So then you go to analytics and then simplicity, right? And so let's just make up a scenario where it's, um, mistake happens, or you're just being critical of something, right? Sometimes you make a good path, a good, the ball comes off your foot. Fine. It goes to the right place, but it feels bad. Do you know that, that kind of weird feeling, you know? Yeah. Right. No one else knows the ball

landed right where it's supposed to go, but it just feels off. So what do you do with that stuff? This is what happens to people walking on stage. They, no one knows that they're nervous or kind of doing their thing inside, but, but it feels like they're a bit off. So how do you do that? Some, I mean, sometimes you kind of fake it till you make it. And so you, you know, you're not really playing well and the ball's coming off your foot funny, but it's still kind of getting to where you want it to go. And you just kind of like you try to exude that and then that confidence. And then eventually maybe you start actually feeling confident.

And so for me, like I think because on a lot of these teams that I play for, I'm kind of this older statesman and veteran player. And so people look to me when things aren't going well. And so a lot of it is putting on the performance or the mask that everything's fine. We're getting through this just fine. Okay. So that sounds risky because if it's not real, then you know it's not real, right? And so that's like the Band-Aid of all band-aids. I'm okay.

But you know, like really inside you're like struggling. Me struggling, but putting on that outward facing confidence makes that next person confident though. And I've succeeded in helping them. Got it. But they're in this, but they're better. Yeah. So I think that, I don't know the science on this part because we can't measure that kind of chemistry thing that takes place on teams. But I will tell you that our brains are wired to scan for danger. And if I look over at you and you are the elder statesman, right? And I trust you and you're sturdy and I look over at you and your eyebrows are lifted and

you're kind of looking out into space lost and there's some, or there's some anxiousness where your eyes are bigger than they normally are. Then I go, oh, she's scared. What's wrong? And I look around and I either go, oh, it's me. I'm the one that's going to let people that, or I look out and go, oh, the predator's over there. She's afraid of the predators. And then so you're right on that level that people are really sensitive to looking for signals. And so you are right on that level. Most people don't understand their inner world well enough to talk about it. Really. It's all very kind of jumbled. I've tried very hard to try to unjumble mine. It sounds like, have you done, have you sat with people like psychologists or folks that you unpack, or has this been more of a life journey?

It's been a life journey. And I have sat down with sports psychologists and other types of psychologists, organizational psychologists, and it usually always comes back to the team and not necessarily diving deep into me as the individual, but my kind of place within the hierarchy of team dynamics. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So I was working with one of the American teams going into the Rio games. And we as a team, we decided we're going to take the approach that it's another game. And then we backed in our approach for that. And it doesn't matter if you want to take the other approach, which is like, it's the biggest game prepare for the, you know, the wildest, whatever, whatever, you just got to take a strategy and execute against it. So we took the strategy. It's another game. The net is the same height. It was volleyball, women's team. The net was the same height, fill in the blanks. It's all the same. And so one of the athletes comes up to

me. It was the first game of the Olympics. One of the young gals that it was our first roster. And we're using a scale, one to ten. And ten is like, I feel like I'm going to throw up. Right? Like a five is the sweet spot. And then a one is like, man, I'm like yawning out here. I'm kind of a mess. And so one of the elders comes to one of the young bucks and says, how you doing? And the young one says, the rookie says, I was doing great until I looked down and

saw the fricking rings because the rings are on the floor, you know, of the hardwood. And now I'm like at a 14. And so like, right. But the cool thing is they both laughed. They had your response. Like they both laughed. And so like that kind of changed the nature of it. And then the elder was like, well, just find your fricking five. Jesus. Like we, this is what we've been doing. You know, they laughed about it that way. So, so what is it like for you when you're at the games and I know how you want to get after it, what is it like for you? For me, if I were to use that scale, um, I would say that I'm probably at like a seven, eight, but I'll say that I'm also a 7.8 going into just a regular friendly or playing for my professional team. And so I think it's actually interesting because our coach for

the 2019 World Cup, Jill Ellis, probably said this the best, is that other teams visit pressure. We live in the pressure. And so I've never heard that said so well, and just so appropriate to our team that we create pressure. And sometimes it's the pressure you put on yourself. It's the pressure of competing with your teammate for playing time. It's the pressure of we always have to win. Like we're on a very successful team and we're only relevant when we win. And so we're always under this, this amount of pressure. And so I think that really helps us going into these world events because it is just another game, but it's always a seven, eight. There it is. So it's, you are experienced in the cauldron of stress. Yes. I'm

pretty comfortable at being uncomfortable. Yeah. You're hands down one of the best defenders on the planet. And so when did you start to realize that you're so skilled at your craft that you might be better at what you do than what most people do in their life? I think I realized that I had a knack for something pretty young. I would say middle school where, you know, you have a friend that's, you know, good at playing an instrument or math or debate. And then for me, it was obviously soccer, but it was like the levels that I was reaching as far as teams that I was making and, you know, trials and tryouts that I, you know, I was getting selected for these teams. So I was reaching these markers that I had talented friends, but they weren't reaching the markers in their craft. And so I think that's when I was like,

oh, there might be something here for me. I was curious about that because soccer is a pretty young game and the culling, if you will, happens at a pretty young age. So the second part of this question is at what age did adults start to treat you differently because of your talent, because of your skill? I would say around 14, 15, I kind of noticed some of the managers of my teams treating me differently and I didn't like it. And in fact, I really didn't like it because I didn't want to be singled out from the rest of the group. And so, and this was before I was actually very honest with the people around me, but it was something that I constantly struggled with. And I tried even harder to fit in, in a way, not to diminish my own skill and craft, but I guess in a way, probably more of an imposter syndrome where I actually lessened what I really am. Isn't that a shame? 100%. If I could change anything, it would definitely be going back and just letting my

light shine. And if people didn't like that, then I wouldn't want them in my sphere, you know, like have quality people around you. And so, yeah, that's definitely, if I have a regret, that would be one of them. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah. I don't want to be insensitive to this because the timing of what's happening in our world right now, but I don't know anyone that escapes, that ends without trauma, whether that's big trauma, big T or small T trauma. But trauma is part of the human experience. Suffering is part of this experience.

And I think that for me, like I want to feel those sufferings and then adjust. I want to grow from them. I want to figure it out and have deeper compassion for myself and others. And then to be able to like do better you know and so it comes from these pain points um do you have any other those sticky type of things that were watershed experiences for you that you're like yeah this this this one shifted me quite a bit too yeah i would say like mine, as you said, minor lowercase T's. And so it's very much an athlete story of getting cut from teams and having that, that moment where you're deciding about your future. And, you know, are you going to put your heart and soul into something that, you know, isn't a little unrequited. And so I've definitely had those moments. I've been cut from U21 teams. I've been cut from the senior women's national team. You know, I've had coaches say some pretty harsh things about, you know, why you're never going to make it at that level. And so those, those are, I would say for me, career changing moments. Okay. When I'm at my best, you've, you've given us a snap of that. When I'm at my best, you've given us a snap of that.

When I'm at my worst, what is that like for you? Defeated, second-guessing everything, unfocused, not present, foggy. Yeah, for me, there's a criticalness that I back into like this super hypercritical thing of like others and myself included. And so I think it's really important to know the range, you know, like, okay, that's what that is. Oh, that's how, oh, I'm heading in that direction. Let me get off that train and kind of flip it. And would you say that on the, this is like the inner skill game. Are you pretty good at recognizing the trains that will take you to that place? Or do you feel, still feel like, no, I end up there all the time. And I'm like, what, how'd I get here again? Or do you think you can get off on stop number one, two, 12, whatever early on the train? I have gotten better at recognizing when I'm going down a bad pathway. And I'm fortunate that I have people around me that recognize it. And they're like, you're doing

that thing where you sigh a lot, because that's kind of my outward. I just sigh very deeply. And they're like, you're doing that. Why are you doing that? And it kind of is like, okay, I'm doing this because I'm dreading this, or I'm feeling very uncomfortable about that. And then it's like, okay, well then what can we do then to correct the path and not dread that or not be critical about that? So what does it sound like in your head when it's like epic to be you when, and I know I kind of asked this earlier, but like, this is not super concrete. Like, is it stuff like I'm built for this? Like, or is it like subtle like that, but strong? Or is it something like light and airy? Like what, what concretely, what does it sound like? Nobody else will understand this because this is unique to your, whatever number of years you've been on this planet? Yeah, I think for me, it's almost a reassurance.

You chose the right thing. You decided to do this and you're doing it and you're doing it well. There you go. What are your crown jewels? What are the things that you know are pretty special? It could be your creative nature. It could be that you've got these kind of freak fast feet. It could be like, you know, whatever, like what, what are the crown jewels that you're like, yeah, I rely on these a lot. They're pretty cool.

So I, I rely a lot on my soccer IQ. So I've, I'm limited as an athlete. I am not the fastest. I am not the strongest. And I learned that very early on that I needed to be way smarter and be able to use that in order to complement any sort of limitations that I had physically. I love it. There's a special operator taught me this, which is this insight. In the most pressure packed environments. It's about angles, allies, and assets.

I go, Oh, that's good. You know, it definitely fits for most sport. You know, the angles, angles are really important allies.

Where are my friends? How do I, how do I work with them? And what are the assets internal and external that I can rely on? And so I just, I really love that angles, allies, and assets.

And so that's why, yeah. And like, I was asking you about your assets. You've already talked that angles, allies, and assets. And so that's why, yeah. And like, I was asking you about your assets. You've already talked about angles and then the relational approach you have, the allies, like you've got people that have your back probably because you've invested in them and you care. So I'm imagining you have all three of those. I think I do.

Yeah. Yeah. There we go. We're getting somewhere. Okay. So like, what, what is it? I don't know what it is about your team, your national team. What is the culture? Why is the culture so likable? You know, like what makes your, your team, your culture successful?

And you're saying from the outside looking in? Well, I'm saying from the outside looking in, you guys are likable. It looks successful. Okay. I don't want to paint my picture. I already learned my lesson and I stepped in it again twice in this conversation, but what makes your culture successful? And you guys win a lot. So let's just kind of keep it concrete like at that level. So our culture, I would say, is centered around excellence and that incorporates competitiveness and literally everything that we do, we are doing it to the best of our ability. So whether it's a film session, a training, a game, like you better bring your A game or you're just not going to be here because there are a lot of people that are home right now that want to be here and are willing to give that effort. So that competitiveness and that, that strive for excellence in all things, I think is like a core tenet of our culture. But then I would also say grit is probably equally as important.

And the resiliency of showing up every single day when you're tired, you're slightly injured. You know, we just traveled from China. There are things like you have to show up every single day with the same mentality, the same focus, the same willingness and effort. And I think that's what separates great players from good players. But I also think with our national team, great national teams from just okay national teams. And then who holds that standard? And how does that standard get activated? Because it's one thing to have these words on walls. It's another thing to have like one person that kind of stands for it, but no one else really respects or listens. Like who holds the standards? And then how does it actually become actionable?

So that is always a work in progress. And I think that's something that we acknowledge as a group. There are things that we have to be better at in order to make this culture stronger. And that's accountability. Because it is very uncomfortable to go to your teammate and say, that's not good enough. And you have to be vulnerable and willing to accept that criticism. And so there's so many things that go into that, to the culture and team dynamics.

So actionable, it's, these standards are lived by the players. They have to be. They can't be from the top down, from the coaching staff to the players. Like that helps in some ways that they're setting the example of accountability, but like it has to be lived by the players and it's uncomfortable. But like I said, you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable knowing that we're all doing this for a certain goal.

And whether that's a world tournament or being the best in the world, there's always like an understanding that we are working towards something and that something is going to be great if everyone buys into it. Okay. How did you guys manage not having the games this year, the Olympic games? And actually, I'm not so interested in the rest of the team, but for you, how did you manage the news that you're not getting to go this year? I thought that the decision to suspend the games, delay them was the right thing to do.

I thought it was very unfair for the people that hadn't even qualified for the games yet. And so you're asking them to both train in a risky environment, but then also compete in a risky environment. And so it was just unfair on so many levels for a lot of these athletes. And then you think of the supporters going to the games and the chances of infection. And so there's just so many unknowns surrounding COVID at the time. So for me, delaying the Olympics was the right thing to do. And I'm good with it. I think it was the right decision. I don't think it affects me in any way. I'll be a year older, which brings on its own challenges. But if I deserve to be there, I will be there. And so really it's another year of opportunity to get better and, or get

worse, but I will look optimistically at this, that I can get better in a year. I think you're giving it right back to me right now. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Okay. So yeah, it's all over the shop, how athletes are responding. Some. Some folks are like, thank goodness. Are you kidding me? I'm dealing with this injury. I got this knickknack. Awesome. I'm going to be roaring to go in X number of months.

Some are like, oh, this was my last shot. You know, like, am I going to stick around for another year? You know, like stick around sounds so bad, but like, am I going to hang in there for another year? And some are just so devastated because they're brand new to it. They don't know what to do. So they're staying their foots on the gas this whole time. And it feels like they're going to burn themselves out. So, so it doesn't sound like you were disappointed. It sounds like your moral compass and your reason was like, okay, this seems like the safe thing to do. I'll deal with the consequences of whether I make the team later. Yes. And that, that could also be because I've been to two already. And so

I can understand why, you know, people that knew to the team, this was their first opportunity to go to the Olympics, then being crushed about it. So maybe that's just kind of the benefit of, of experience. Okay. So what makes a great coach? In your best estimate, what makes a great coach? I would say a great coach has two things. They're good managers of people and they have a good tactical understanding of the game of soccer. Okay. And the management is about the relational piece? It is, yes. Are you more of treat everyone equally the same or treat everyone equally different? That's a great question. I think I wouldn't hold people to different standards based off experience or

reputations or anything like that. But I will say that people respond to different critiques. You know, some people really like the tough love. Some people need to have an arm around the shoulder and, you know, quite talk away from everyone else. So I think it's, it's, it's twofold. I think you have to be able to know your players individually and what they respond best to, but also not hold them to a different standard and allow some people to get away with certain things and other people not to. So this moral, yeah, let's call it a compass, right? Like it's,

it's, it's vibrant for you so much so that I know that in one of your world class or world cup games, I think it was a world cup that you guys swapped out your jerseys, your names on the back. Oh yes. And put on his like women historical figures that we find really. Yeah. Yeah. So can you talk about that a little bit, why you chose? So it was a really great idea by US Soccer. We have the She Believes Tournament, which from the name, you can probably guess that it's about believing in women, believing in yourself, and then just the power to lift each other up. And so we had an exercise where if we were to put a woman's name on the back of our jersey, who would it be? And it ranged. I mean, it went from, you know, Carrie Underwood to Audre Lorde to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who I put on the back of

my jersey. And I actually, I haven't even seen any of the movies and things and documentaries about her, but she's just a figure that I really appreciate and what she stands for and her willingness to really just grit things out and be willing to be such a dissenting voice and to fight for women's rights and just gender equality in general. And so we're as a national team, you know, fighting our own fight sometimes. And so it just seemed appropriate to pick Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So you're an advocate for injustice, for the voices that are not properly heard. And I mean, I'm super unsettled by injustice. And I say that knowing that I've had this incredible gift of being for a long time a white man. And I say that because in many respects, it's easier. And I don't want to be callous with what I'm saying. I'm saying in the best way I can, that there is a privilege. For a long time, there has been a privilege to be a man and then a privilege to be Caucasian. And I don't think I really understood it until

once my wife is that her folks came from El Salvador in Cuba and they're born there. My wife was a first generation here. And I didn't realize that I was in an interracial relationship, like totally different race. And then I was like, oh, and so, oh, we are. Okay. So I was super naive. And now, like with all the injustice that's taking place racially and gender wise, I hope you guys figure this out because your case, the USA women's national team case is really important. It's an important case. And I, you know, um, I don't want to get into the weeds in it. Cause I know you guys are kind of in, in battle of it, but can you just talk about why it's so important

to you? Yeah, it's, it's hugely important. And I also will just say, I'm also in an interracial relationship. So I understand what you're saying, um saying on a level that maybe other people don't. But as far as the women's national team, in 1999, when the Women's World Cup was held in the States, it was just kind of this lightning moment where women's soccer really came onto the map and people were paying attention and sponsors were paying attention. And, you know, you're packing the Rose Bowl and you have all these viewers and you have these women who are at the center of it saying, we don't make a living from playing this sport. And so they started this fight and they said, and negotiated for a livable wage. And that was kind of the starting point that we've been fighting and, you know,

pushing this fight. And it came to a point for us after the 2015 World Cup, where we came back and we're like, we won, we won. And everyone was like, that prize money, like it was such a difference in the men's and women's prize money. And we've always been aware of the difference between what the men get paid and what the women get paid. And we finally hit this moment where it's just, this is not, this is not right. We need, we need to change this. And so it went from trying to negotiate a better CBA, which we closed the gap a little bit, but not to the point where we wanted it to. And then we filed a claim with the EEOC and they were taking a really long time to come to a decision. So we were like, that's it. We're, we're gonna, we're gonna sue.

And so we filed a lawsuit of equal pay discrimination. And that's the fight that we're, that we're in right now. And what's been so amazing throughout this entire process is the support that we have felt from not just other women's sports like WNBA, hockey, it's women in general. And we paired up with Time's Up. And so we have, you know, women actresses like America Ferrer that are like also helping us. It's just like so many women wanting to help women. And for me, that's been the most amazing part of this entire fight is women trying to elevate women. And for me, that's been the most amazing part of this entire fight is women trying to elevate women and bring women along and celebrate women's successes.

And it's, it's felt and it's reverberated. It's echoed through all these different occupations and it's been challenging at times. And I think change is always going to be challenging. It's never a linear thing, but there's so much significance in, in the fight now. And I think change is always going to be challenging. It's never a linear thing, but there's so much significance in the fight now. And so even if we get through this entire process and we get nothing, nothing changes, which would be terrible. Still the fact that we fought and people saw us fighting, I think is hugely important. Awesome. I'm wishing you the best there. You know, it's not, this is not an easy battle and a lot of people would pull away from it. And so, you know, I don't know what the right thing to say

is like I'm rooting for you, you know, and you guys to figure out this thing because inequality, I heard somebody the other day say, I, how do you put it? He's a black man and he says, I am so sick and tired of being, okay. So let's, I want to honor your time. And I just want to do a couple of quick hits here is it all comes down to, how do you finish that? It all comes down to caring. Pressure comes from? Within. Flow is?

Fleeting. You were going to go there. Yeah, that's good. Okay. I am? A lot of things. Mastery is? A journey.

Okay. What was the last time you saw mastery in action? Is there something that comes up for you? When I think of soccer and mastery, I think of a Messi or a Cristiano Ronaldo. Someone who clearly gets the game and has gotten and optimized all those things about themselves to make them the best versions of themselves. And that's elevated them from other people. But do I, do I feel like you can say someone is a master at soccer? I think that's, I think that's an impossible thing to say. Cause I think soccer is always changing and evolving and people have to constantly be adapting. And it's just, you can strive to be a master, but I don't think mastery is an endpoint.

I think it's that just that pursuit. And I don't know many people get there. Are you more interested in mastery of self, mastery of craft or the combination of the two? I think definitely the both of them. Okay. So the combination. Combination. Yes. And if you're invest more time in one, which one would that be? Self or craft? Jeez, that's so tough. If I really had to choose just one, mastery of self.

And then for you little kids coming up, how would you, if you could populate the waters with something amazing, you know, like the ecosystem that they learn from or whatever, like what would you hope that they get right? What would you hope they experience and learn and maybe get right? I would hope that they make mistakes and they're okay making mistakes and they're not punished for their mistakes, that they actually have an opportunity to learn from those mistakes. And I think from too young of an age, people feel like they have to be perfect and they just get so disheartened because they're not, and they shouldn't be expected to. They're young.

So I would hope that what's populating the waters is just that safety of knowing that you can try things and some things will work and some things won't work. And that's okay. Like grow from that. Is there a conversation that comes up for when you were a kid that shifted you a little bit? You know, like as you were talking, I'm thinking about, um, a couple experiences that I experienced that were like, Oh God, that was really cool. You know, I can't now I get it. Like, of course that was easy for them. But as a kid that was like, really, that's, that's possible. Like, did you have any of those types of things? I can't think of anything off the top of

my head can you can you share one of yours yeah so um this is I don't know why this one came up I was kind of random but it was actually important it was a say I was probably in fifth grade and it was like a high school senior for some reason I was with the high school senior and um I was bouncing a basketball and we're walking down the hall and she just looked and she was like, you're really good at that. And I said, thanks. And she says, I bet you've made a lot of mistakes. And I thought, no. And like I said, so I said, I was like, no. And she says, oh yeah, you can't get that good without any mistakes, without those mistakes.

I was like, looking back, I was like, that's freaking cool. Like, that was just a little small, little thing, small, little trajectory shifter. And so anyways, that's what I was just wondering if you had some of those questions or, and maybe nothing comes up for you now, but let's do it this way. And this is the last question. If you could ask somebody a very important question, what would that very important question be? Anybody. Yeah. What makes you tick?

What lights you up? I love that question. Who would you ask? Gee, I would ask anybody. And I think it would be interesting to know if people even know. And so I think that to me would be really sad if people didn't have an answer to that. How do you answer what makes you tick? I feel like we covered it, but we didn't answer it so kind of succinctly. Obviously playing soccer, that makes me tick, but reading a good book, like the type of book that you just, you need to know how it ends and you can't put it down, or even as simple as like a video game that you're just a hundred percent bought into. Like

those things make me tick. I love it. If the thing that's inside of you were to come true and you had this hope for humanity, right? What, what is that hope? What are you trying to sort out from the work that you're doing? I would say my hope is compassion and a better and a willingness to listen to one another and to try to put yourself in other people's shoes. And I think we see that at so many levels nowadays that people just aren't willing to do that. And so my hope is that we get to a place where compassion is kind of that driving, unifying human force. Okay. If you were to prompt somebody to explore, to get to know themselves better, what prompt would you give them?

I would take, when you're feeling a certain way, positive or negative, taking a little bit of time to just analyze and try to figure out why you're feeling that way. And I think we've, we've gotten to the point where we have to feel so, um, distracted by, you know, TV or by social media or your phone. Um, and just having that quiet moment to just self-analyze and try to understand why you're feeling that way and then deal with, if you can, why you're feeling that way, which is a very easy thing to say, hard to do. But I think that struggle and that attempt will is pick a feeling that you felt today and then spend some time to understand what led you to that feeling? Absolutely. Okay. That's a cool prompt. I'm going to try it myself. Excellent. I've loved this conversation. I just want to say thank you. It's your breath of fresh air. Your intelligence is obvious. Your humanity is on point. You lead with it, with your moral compass. Yeah, what a fantastic conversation. I feel like, you know, the world is a better place because of you. And so, and we just met. And so I just want to say thank you for bringing the vulnerability and in return, the courage to speak into the truth of something.

And then also to share kind of the scars and battle wounds that come with it. And also the assets that, you know, can get on the other side. So I just want to say thank you. This was awesome. Thank you. This has been, I think, very enriching for me just to be able to further understand myself. So thank you for the opportunity. That's good too. Okay. So where can people find you? I am on social media. I am at Becky Sauerbrunn on Twitter and then Reba04 on Instagram. But you know, I'm not really on social media that much, but would love to have any sort of message from this podcast sent to me. Would love to hear about it.

You got it. Thank you. You're very welcome. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com

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