Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Future of Leadership: Scaling Teams with Empathy & Purpose | Deb Cupp, President of Microsoft Americas

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

In this fast-evolving business landscape, how do leaders turn setbacks into opportunities for growth?Today, I’m thrilled to share this conversation with Deb Cupp—the President of Microsoft Americas. Deb embodies the best of leadership – and I don’t say that lightly.I’ve had an up-close view of how she works – she comes alive at the intersection of staying customer-centric while being able to scale teams within highly complex business landscapes. Deb is fun, amazing to be around, brings the best out of her teams, and brings the best out of me as well. She’s earned her resilience… it’s no wonder why her teams perform in a world class way. If you're curious about building a career that's both purpose-driven and high-performing—or how to lead with resilience and empathy—this conversation is packed with actionable insights and wisdom._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. In this fast evolving business landscape, how do leaders turn setbacks into opportunities for growth? Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And today, I'm really excited to welcome Deb Kupp, who embodies the best of leadership. I do not say that lightly. Deb is the president

of Microsoft Americas. It's a huge job now. And I've had an up-close view of how she works. She comes alive at the intersection of staying customer centric while being able to scale teams within highly complex business landscapes. Deb is fun. You're going to hear that. She's amazing to be around. She brings the best out of her teams. She brings the best out of me. She's earned her resilience. And it is no wonder why her teams perform in a world-class way. If you are curious about building a career that's both purpose-driven and high-performing,

or how to lead with resilience and empathy. This conversation is packed with actionable insights and wisdom. And a quick note, if you find value in these conversations, I would love for you to take a moment to leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. Your feedback helps us reach more people to grow this incredible community. So let's jump right into this week's episode with the inspiring Deb Kupp. Deb, this is so much fun to sit with you. I'm so excited to be here. I've been excited about this for weeks. Have you?

Yes. That's really good. I love spending time with you. Ditto. And you have so much to offer, good. I love spending time with you. Ditto. And, uh, you know, you have so much to offer obviously inside of the big job you have at Microsoft, but the way that you contour your life and the, the vibrance that you have when you walk into a room, that's something I want to open up to better understand. Like, what is that psychology that's sitting right underneath that? Yeah. So we'll do that as we go.

Okay. Let's just start at the top. Sure. Like, how are you? I'm great. I'm great. Yeah. What does that mean?

It means I'm getting energy from what I'm doing. It means that I'm surrounded by people I enjoy. I'm actually just coming off of a couple days with customers, and that gives me such joy and energy. I'm fascinated by what they do and how they do it. So I feel like when I'm learning, when I'm spending time with people I and energy. I'm fascinated by what they do and how they do it. So I feel like when I'm learning, when I'm spending time with people I love, when I'm getting energy from the work that I'm doing, I feel great. Energy from the work I do feels like something that I think most people would say, oh, I want that. Yeah. Is it about the fit or is it about your psychology,

whatever you are going to do that you would carry that model with you i think fit is important so that you're in a place doing a thing that you believe you can give to okay so for me it has to be something where i feel like i'm contributing and that i'm learning so i think fit important, but I also think it's what you bring. So it's weird. I'm one of those people that says like, how have I been so lucky that I've had so many jobs that I love and it can't just be the job. Right. So there's something about sort of how I think about it. Yeah. I feel like you would, anywhere you go, you would naturally bring something to that environment that allows you to feel the way that you do and kind of shape your, your thoughts and your words in a way that brings the energy that I know you.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's like an interaction, but you're saying that there's something I'm doing that I feel like I, I want to contribute in a certain way and the environment I'm always looking for environments that are kind of bouncing that back. Yes. So, and I can tell when there's an environment that's not necessarily bouncing that back in the way that I want. And when that happens, I find the need to move to a different environment. So if I feel like the environment isn't giving me the space to be me, then I'm not interested in being in that environment. So, all right, there's probably, that's like a fundamental first principle for you, right?

There was energy even when you just said that. Yes. It's an authenticity thing. I just, and you know me well enough to know that I just, I show up the same way. I don't, it doesn't matter who I'm talking to. If I'm talking to you, if I'm talking to someone who, my waitress or waiter, if I'm talking to my family, I'm the exact same person. Was mom quote unquote positive? Yeah.

Yeah, she was. She was positive. She was a realist too, though, which I loved. Like, I think she's a, you know, a good example of a hardworking, tough upbringing, really sort of grounded on family and love and support, but realistic about sort of challenges that life will bring. That makes sense. Did mom and dad go through hard times? Definitely. So my parents definitely financially always sort of challenged. While you were growing up? Yes.

So my mom was one of eight kids. My dad was actually just one of two kids. But I would say my parents were always struggling. It was never easy for them financially. So I think it was always sort of, I always saw the hard work and always respected what they put into it and that the family always came first. So even if they couldn't afford it, that like the kids need to have braces or, you know, it was always sort of, how do we make sure that the kids get what they need to be

successful? How do we make sure that we continue to support them? How do we get to their games? You know, all that kind of stuff. I wonder how that's shaped the way that you lead, because you come from an optimistic, grateful place. Yes. And it sounds like you're really connected to your family of origin. Yes. Right. And when you're talking about it now, what do you feel? What is the emotion? I'm afraid I'm going to cry. So sorry if I do. Yeah. No, I grateful. I thought so. Yeah. Tell me more. I think it's, you realize what people give up for you. That's it. Yeah.

I think what I'm watching and feeling is what modern leadership is, by the way. Yeah. This is it. It's not putting on a front and like power and control. That's the way of the dodo. It's like using your emotions to be honest with yourself and to not lose your faculty. Totally. Right.

You're flooded with emotions right now. And can you also think clearly? Totally. I think I can. How do you do that? I'll be the determinant of that. You tell me. How do you do that?

I feel okay feeling emotional about things. Does that make sense? Like I feel lucky to feel grateful. You know, look, I think we're all sort of, in some ways you're born with certain DNA in terms of how your capability, your skillset, some of those things are just innate. So I also feel like, oh good,

well I was lucky enough to be given the pieces to work with. And then, you know, you have your own work to kind of make that come to life in the way that you want it to. That's right. But I don't think everybody necessarily was always given sort of the same pieces. So I also feel a little lucky that like, hey, I have these pieces that I can put together in a way that are creating where, you know, where I am today or what I've been able to do. So what was the second narrative that was happening inside of you when you were being flooded with emotions? What was that quiet voice? I think the quiet voice is always

like, can you hang in? Like, can you, can you keep it so you don't get super emotional, but you're always like, but you're staying in it. Do you see what I mean? Like you're not breaking it to say like, don't create a wall so that you don't feel the emotion, but let it flow so that you can still be you, you can still be authentic, but you can still maintain sort of a dialogue without falling apart. Yeah, that's right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

It's that second narrative that's happening usually most of the time for people that I'm fascinated by. So we're having a conversation, words are coming out of our mouth. And there's also a conversation I'm having with myself. What's your conversation? Oh, like, am I, am I going to be able to really understand you? And you know, like the other part of the conversation is like, okay, how far to go with the emotion piece with you? Yeah. Right? And so because I have this thing, like I really value authenticity and what it means to be honest. Yep.

And then I know that the world isn't quite ready for people to present with emotion. Yes, correct. Although we crave it and we love it. Yes. And so I'm trying to, at the same time, also take care of like your experience, like yes. Creating enough space for you to go wherever you want, but also not feel like you have to go somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that you said that because I think there's a, there's a super interesting balance of, and and like also let's throw in there that I'm a woman yeah so you're always in the back of your mind going that's oh it's a

woman being emotional so can a woman handle you know these hard things because look they're also showing emotion now for me I could care less Because now I might have cared 10 years ago. I don't care now. So I feel like if you see emotion, and I'm a woman, obviously, I think that's okay. And what's really neat is the way people react. So what I found fascinating is when I have emotion and people see it, the way they react to me generally is insanely positive, which is interesting. Now I'm sure there's others who are quietly reacting differently and that's okay too. I agree with everything you just said. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment

that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach.

It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for

free. Terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters.

And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And it's flawed in the way that it begins. And the beginning is that we ought not have emotions for whatever reasons because of the weakness narrative or whatever. And that was designed by people who didn't know how to work with them. However, emotions are so uniquely human

and the ability to have feelings, a private experience, and to decide whether to pull that forward or not. When you think about modern leadership, how do you think about it? Because I think about the feelings and emotions coming forward. Totally. And I've got a second part of it, but like, how do you think about it? I think it's all about connection. I think that you, leadership is about understanding what people need to be successful and creating space for them to do it. So it's about kind of creating where are we trying to go? How are we trying to get there? And then what do you need in order to help us create that path for you. So you're actually anchored to some really powerful research there. So that in the world of science, like there's a check, check, check. Yeah. Okay. And then how does that actually materially show up? Like in your day-to-day engagements, conversations, your rhythm of business, how do you do, how do you operationalize? Yeah. So I think it's a lot of things. So I think it's first, you have to be super clear about what you want from people.

And I think clarity is everything. So it's everything. And I don't think people, I think people underestimate how important it is. So it's repeating over and over and over again what that North Star might be. So what are we trying to do? Chief repeating officer. Yes, and even you can't stand hearing your voice anymore because it's like, how could they, have they heard this? And you realize you have to keep saying it.

So I think one is sort of setting the expectation of what's needed and what you want. And is that strategy or is that relationship, connection, culture? I think it's all of it. Yeah. Yes. And if you were to tally up the number of times a week, so we have five days in there, that you're speaking to the connection relationship culture piece, or you're speaking to vision, direction, mission, strategy, tactics, kind of the craft of business. How would you weight those two? And I know it's a wild ass guess for you probably. No, I think it's the same because it's all- 50-50?

Yeah. It's weaved together. Let's just say we're saying, okay, we land forecasts as we think about our quarters. We spend a lot of time thinking about tact just say we're saying, okay, we land forecasts as we think about our quarters. We spend a lot of time thinking about tactically how we're going to execute against that forecast. I ask questions around how people are feeling about it. So I want to understand, is there stress in the system? Are there blockers that are making it hard? Are there things that are making them uncomfortable, even in the conversation, so that I can't get to, if I feel like I can't get to a real answer, or if someone is surface with me, I can tell pretty quickly that there's some

fear somewhere that I have to break down. So I think the conversation would go something like, you know, what is our expectation? Let's make that clear. What does the company need from us? What do our people need from us? What do our customers need from us? So let's get clear about what we have to go deliver. How are we going to go do that? And then it's about what do I need to unblock? How do we help people feel confident? It layers itself into are we missing training opportunities?

Are we enabling people the right way? So in the creating space, in sport, we talk about front-loading our skills, training, mental skills, training, physical skills, training, and technical skills, training so that we have the right capabilities to be able to do it on demand. And maybe in an artistic way when you know, the game is on. Okay. How do you ahead of time create the space? I'm thinking you're going to point to the relationships, but how do you create the space for people to be honest? And this is what I'm really asking is,

what do you do to speak truth to power for your people to do that? I have to do it first. So I think it is, and it's a journey, right? So it's people who have worked with me for a while understand who I am, so there is no fear because they recognize that it is a safe space, even if it's something that I might not want to hear. They've seen me react to situations already where I might be hearing something I don't

want to hear. But I think I have to model it first. Are you modeling speaking truth to power or modeling being a great listener to the- I'm modeling both. Mm-hmm. Are you modeling speaking truth to power or modeling being a great listener to them? I'm modeling both. So I tend to be the person who will speak truth to power when nobody else wants to. So I will be the one that will step into something that is super uncomfortable in large audiences when other people won't do it. Where does that come from?

I have no fear. Yeah, you do. We all have fear. I have some, but I don't have fear. I'm not afraid to get fired. Okay, so you don't have fear. Where did that come from? Good question.

I mean, I guess it's- Mom, dad, coach, teacher. You know what? Maybe all of those things. I think it's when you play sports, you know, I played through Division I, so I'm not like, you know, not a professional athlete, obviously,

but your whole life is sort of geared towards practice, repetition, losing. I've learned how to lose. So I think it came from that. I think it's always, you just, you get up the next day and you try again. And so I think that's part of it. So yeah, you've got a whole history of figuring things out when it doesn't go according to plan. And so many of us feel anxious that it's not going to work out. And then when it doesn't work out, feel a bit gutted and don't want to look inward, but so then blame others. That's a pretty average approach to life.

It's a recipe for ungrowth, average in every way. It's one of the great insults in this room. You are so average in every way. So you speak truth to power. You're not afraid to get fired. Yep. Okay. So if there's an absence of fear there, it's that there's some other commitment that you're making. And so what is that more fundamental commitment that you've made? It's just do the right thing. According to whom? According to me. Yeah. Okay. This is where it gets really tricky because the person saying something that doesn't sound

right to you. Correct. They probably think it sounds right to them. They definitely do. Yeah. Right. Yep. And if they're saying something that they don't think is right to them, that's a whole

nother kind of can of worms. That's like. That's. Yeah. That's a real problem. That's a real problem because they've swallowed something from the board or whomever and they don't really believe it and they're going to layer it down so they don't get fired yes okay so let's just assume that they believe that we should go 15 we should push our boat off 15 from duck and you're like whoa yep

okay and you do it in a public way yep can you open up like how you go about doing that yeah and and i just want to ground it that first you've made a promise to speak from a place that you're not abandoning your intuition. You're not abandoning the fears that are, I'm not, so you're not abandoning what you think is right. Right. To play it safe. It comes from a belief that I'm in a role that people count on me to speak truth to power.

So I'm a voice and I have to use the voice. And if I don't use the voice, I'm letting myself down and I'm letting other people down. Now, how do I do it, your question? Yes. Carefully, super carefully, because you don't want to be a jerk. It's not about exposing people.

It's about creating a different point of view. So it might be in the context of 15%. I might say, well, let's think about this for a minute and use an example. Here's an example that I, you know, an experience that I've had in my world. It's always about, you know, here's a customer experience. Let me help you understand the experience from the seat of the customer.

Are you challenging me right now? Am I? Yeah. I'm just giving you a perspective. So like. Just giving you a point of view. Well, okay. Look, we've thought a lot about this.

We're very clear. 15%. I might go 14, but you're talking about 2%. I am. And have you really thought about this? I have. Okay. Then I need to understand in a private setting,

or do you want to talk about it now in front of everybody? Whatever's more comfortable. We can do either or. Well, I don't like either of these because we talked about 15%. I think that's okay, but it's important for us to speak openly about the things that we're worried about. Deb, is this because this is a budget cut coming your way? It has nothing to do with that.

It has to do with doing the right thing on behalf of the customer and that's what we're here for so when i was going we were just slipped into role play what how what was the could you were playing along yeah totally yeah and then what do you feel in your body with that type of i sort of love it you you do like it. I do. A little bit. Tell me more. Yeah. Part of it is I appreciated good debate, by the way. You do. I do. And it's not always a good debate. So when someone is refusing to sort of, that wasn't necessarily a good debate because the person was refusing to go anywhere. I was, I was being kind of the stubborn, like my back's against the wall and I'm not moving. Right. You're wrong. I'm right. Yeah. But I appreciate when someone will allow good debate

because I think I learn from it. So there's something in their brain that is holding them to the 15% in that example. I need to figure out what it is because if I understand it, then I can perhaps help them understand why I think it's not 15%. So I think there's a journey in that

that is about learning. And I also think you create some more trust with people. Like if you do it right, someone who even you're having a debate with, you both walk away from it feeling a little more, I think you have, you build trust if you do it the right way and, and respect. Yeah. I really appreciate that you're taking care of the position. You're taking care of the position. You're taking care of the position. You're taking care of their ego in some way. And I'm not saying that we need to protect ego, but there is a sensitivity to like.

You do. No one wants to look stupid when they're trying to share something. Right. But what I've learned is that the most honest, intrepid, forward-pushing, frontier-loving people is that they're more committed to the truth of something. And like, wait, hold on. What are you saying? Yeah. No, no, no.

I already went down this path. Okay, good. I'm glad you brought it up. Thank you. But like 15% it is. Like even if it's not, it's like, no, we need to speak it to make sure that we're actually wrestling with the right stuff. Or you go, you say, listen, I think it's 12%.

Oh my God, I was thinking it was 17. Was it? Okay. So I was, you think even more? Yeah. You know, you think, or even less than 12%. Wait, tell me more. Yes.

Those are the folks that, you know, and there's, I have great respect for the people that bring up a counter argument and great respect for the others that are like, tell me more. Totally. However, there's a time and place for it. A hundred percent. And I am super careful about that. Yeah. You have to be super careful. You have to know the dynamic.

You have to know the people. There are certain people that you do not do that with in a group. You allow them to make the comment. You take it up afterwards. You have to know that. So it's, it's, I think that's something I'm fairly good at is I can read the room. Your social IQ is like, if there was a 200, it'd be 200. Oh yeah. Yeah. And how is your emotional IQ? I think it's pretty good. It's really high. Yeah. You have both of those. We haven't done a test, but it's just the way it feels around you. That you would be like in the

upper quartile or upper percentile for all three, intellectual, social, and emotional. Intellectual for me is like, how quickly can you do something with new information? Emotionally is how well can you understand your emotions, work with them and understand the emotions of others. It's socially intelligence is to understand the context of what's happening. Yes. And navigate that well. And all of those.

I pay a ton of attention to those. Those are all trainable. Yeah, they're totally trainable. And I think if you can model it, hopefully you can help people to see what is possible. And I think that's one thing. One of the things that drives me crazy is people who say like, well, you can help people to see what is possible. And I think that's one thing. One of the things that drives me crazy is people who say like, well, you can't change that or that's never going to get better.

How do you know that? I think it's just, I think people sometimes throw in the towel and it's like, no, no, like timeout. Let's go figure out what's the issue with what's working and is there a way for us to do this differently or better? And nine out of 10 times there are. And sometimes there aren't aren't. Let's be clear. You're going to run across the people that are brick walls. You're not going to get through them. Then you've got to figure out how to go around them in a way that is not going to make them furious, which is also

something we have to go figure out. Tricky waters there too. On the social bit, do you have any frameworks that you work from to help understand, to help others understand like how you navigate social? I mean, I don't know if I have an official, I'll tell you how I think about it. I don't know if it's an official framework. I mean, it's my, I guess I think about it in the context of sort of what, what's at stake.

What is the environment in which, if it's a conversation, what's the environment in which the conversation is happening? What does the other person win or lose or think they win or lose? Because they might think they're winning or losing. And you think a lot about how that particular person operates in that particular environment. Definitely not a bull in a china shop. Like there's a sensitivity to the whole thing. No, that never works. Yeah. And then that's a, that's an ego thing. I think the bull in the china shop. Yeah. And you don't have an ego. No. I mean, there's always somebody smarter. There's always somebody better. There's always

somebody that's the, who I want around me. I want people who are way smarter than me that are more capable than me that have more potential than me. That's the best. That's how I want around me. I want people who are way smarter than me, that are more capable than me, that have more potential than me. That's the best. That's how I learn. So when I say ego, this is how I think about it. I do want to hear how you think about it. What that means is that their primary purpose is to look a certain way, is to be seen a certain way. That's what really ego is.

And you have a different purpose. That's not your purpose. It almost feels like that you don't entertain that at all. No, it's really refreshing. I just think who has the energy? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't think anyone wants it. But when you've gone through heavy stuff, yeah, there's like, how am I going to protect myself? Yeah. So when you think about purpose, your purpose is not to look a certain way or be seen a certain way. What is your purpose? I will never forget how you helped me by the way you just encouraged me, challenged me, gave me the space to be crazy one day because I just couldn't stand it. You know, those are the things that, that's it. Like the rest of it doesn't matter.

Like if they say I'm better for the five minutes I was with her, my God, that's a home run. Of all the purposes that you could have in life. Yeah. You want to create space for people to be their very best. It just makes me, it gives me energy. Why the word space? Because I think people need it. I think people need to feel like they can step into something. And I think a lot of people are afraid to take the step. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put

in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting.

Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the momentous three protein creatine and omega-3 and together these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about

how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue

creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, Thank you. at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So the space to use their imagination sounds like how you're thinking about it. So when you, first and foremost, you were using your imagination for what you could try to conjure up for her. Yeah. What you think would be. Okay. Do you, is that like a real time thing that's happening?

Or is it after a conversation or engagement when you're thinking about that person on the drive home? It can be all of the above. Okay. So like sometimes I'm sitting in a meeting with somebody and I'll think, man, they would be great at X. Yeah. Or I've worked with them for years and I think, oh, I've seen all these incredible man, they would be great at X. Or I've worked with them for years and I think, oh, I've seen all these incredible skills. They would be great at Y. So sometimes it's one or it can be both. It can be a combination of, yeah.

And when you share that with people, what are you looking for when you share it with them? I'm looking for them to take it in and think about it. And they might not want whatever the thing is, and that's fine too. I think I'm just looking for them to give themselves a chance. Yeah. So for me, that's like the calibration moment where you share an idea of something that feels big or different or grand, and it's watching how they tilt their head to it. Like, is it like back? Like what?

Or is it like, whoa, really? You know, and that calibration moment, I think is really cool. I had one a month ago where I mentioned somebody to someone who works for me and they were like, it was the back. It was like, and at first it was this face of like, ew. And then I recognized it was not ew.

It was more like, could I really do that? And then I know the person super well. So I knew it took them time to sort of think through what I was saying. And then it became a lean in. You know, it was just one of those things where it was like out back in. So it's kind of fun just to sort of watch. Do you have a moment in your life where somebody did that for you? I think for me, it was, there's been different moments where I wasn't considering something.

And then someone would call and say, Hey, you should try this. And I'd be like, huh? Like for me, I think the first thing for me is always like a head, like a, like, let me think about what that would be. And I go to sort of like, will it challenge me? Will it bring me joy? And will I create impact? And those are my three things. Challenge, joy, and impact. Yes. Yeah. No finances.

No. No. They work itself out. Got it. I really believe that. Yep. Now, if someone were like, do it for free, I'd be like, no. To be clear.

So finances matter. But in my brain, that sorts itself. Yeah. So I've got a venn diagram of three and for me to be engaged in a project is it going to be meaningful impact is it going to like kind of move the needle in some way is it gonna be fun do i want to do it with these people like is it energizing and and then does it financially make sense yeah and so i need two out of three and it's okay like if there's no money on the table you know it's going to make some impact it's gonna be a lot of fun yeah i'm like great yeah i know that i can't do all of those right i can't say yes to all of those right but at least i know what

i'm getting but yeah if there's only one of those like it's a lot of fun i feel like that was when i was 16 that's right systems thinking and emotional sensitivity okay so emotional iq and systems thinking where do you think on that spectrum? You, you lie. Cause I feel like I'm right in the middle. I know. I'm sorry. Is that about it? Yeah. Well, you do both. Yeah. Yeah. I think you probably, your genius superpowers probably on the social emotional piece and, but you don't struggle with systems thinking. I mean, I'm also like, I don't know if I said this, but part of it is the accountability too. Like I didn't do that.

That's a big driver for me and sort of, and for people I work with and for, and who worked for me. Okay. So this whole, this whole thing kind of started when I said like, how do you, okay. And you didn't bring up a kind of, or I missed the kind of, no, I didn't say it. This is really tricky. Yeah. Accountability is tricky? Yeah. Okay. And you didn't bring up accountability, or I missed accountability. No, I didn't say it, actually. This is really tricky. Yeah.

Accountability's tricky. Yeah. And, okay, so this is how I do it. Praise publicly, coach privately for the most part. Yep. But how do you do accountability? Because that time, I haven't seen great models with that. I've seen the overly positive, we're not even going to address it.

We're going to be better tomorrow. And I've seen the overly aggressive. That's not good enough. Get your stuff together. The sweet spot is a little bit lacking. Let me try. I'll give you an example and you can tell me whether maybe that'll tell you how I do it and whether it makes sense. Go back in time. Terrible quarter. So here's how I did it. We didn't meet the expectations of the company. Therefore, like we moved the stock price in my business. So if I don't make it, the company doesn't make it. When we don't, which we didn't, that's not good.

And none of us want to be sitting in that space. Now, do we think we've done everything we could to be as successful as we could this quarter? Do I think I did everything I could? No, I don't. I think all of us have to collectively say, did we do our best? And if you can say you did your best, awesome.

You can go to sleep at night saying, maybe I didn't accomplish the objective, but I did everything I could. So just because you tried your best doesn't mean that you've met the standard. That's right. Okay. And then how do you hold people to the standard and keep them accountable? I think you have to be super clear of what the standard is, first of all.

And how do you do that? Is it the objective number you're trying to hit? Yep. And how you hit it. So it's about, you know, it's the circles of sort of just excelling in performance, but it's also the cultural aspect of how you did it. And they're both very high standards. So behave in a way that we expect. There's like zero tolerance on that one.

So if you don't, there's an outcome that you're not going to like. And that's just the reality. And I'm happy to tell everyone about that and share it 100 times over, right? And then there's the performance aspect. And so that's more about, are you achieving the objective from a performance aspect? It's super easy when you're talking to people who are chasing a number, right? So if you're doing it from a sales perspective, that's easy from the standpoint of what the accountability target is. Then the question becomes, if you aren't performing, are you at least progressing in a way that we believe

you're going to accomplish that objective in a period of time? And it's all, again, communication. What I get crazy over is when people aren't clear with people, what they're expected to do, and then at some point go like, well, they're not good enough. I'm like, well, that's your fault. You didn't tell them where they needed to be. You didn't tell them what you expected of them. So do that first and then coach them through it. So I think it's a constant communication.

This is, I think, an area everybody can get better at in terms of just, here's what I saw that you did that worked. Here's what I saw that you did that didn't. Here's where I think you're performing against the objective and what I need you to go do. And here's where I think that there's areas of opportunity. And also super honest about like, I'm not sure this is the right role for you. And here's why. Do you think it's the right role for you? And help me understand why you think it's the right role for you. And then let's work together to figure out how to make sure you're excelling at the pace. We want people to be happy. Like I also liken it back to like, you got to be happy in what you're doing. And it's sometimes people aren't performing in roles

because they're in the wrong job. So that might be part of it too. It's all, you got to figure all the pieces out to make sure that you're doing the right thing from an accountability perspective. It's not just like one answer. And how do you do the public piece? I'm the same way, like kind of you described. I don't like to-

Praise public. Yeah. Coach probably. Yes. I will coach a collective publicly not an individual even if it's not a you know if it's a yeah not a challenging point coaching can be done publicly when you hold somebody in in in high regard yes and you ask thoughtful questions yes and you're trying to help you know that's a that's a different type of model yeah when it's like look that's not good

enough yes then that is best served. Yes. I think so too. The goal is not to make people feel bad or exposed. What is the goal? The goal is to help people improve or move, honestly. I mean, it's get better or go find something you'll excel at. Do you have an experience where you held on or tolerated a high performer that had just low character? Yeah, absolutely I do. And what are the insights? How did you work with that? example where it was like an immediate, I would say it was a very fast exit because they were unbelievably good, but they were unbelievably bad from a cultural perspective. I have another

example that went on far too long. I was in a debate, I would say, with others where I was like, I am not going to tolerate this anymore. Some others sort of like no no no they're amazing like it's worth it and then i just got manage around it right is the narrative and that's usually a fear-based approach i've seen it in sport over and over it drives me the high talent it eats at me it does it eats at me they hurt they hurt people they hurt people they are toxic yeah they hurt and the minute they finally go it is like a dance in the streets every coach that i've worked with it's the same type of thing like why did i wait so long i just told somebody the other day never ever in my life have i let somebody go and wished i waited longer ever in my life life? I said, so if you, you know, you know.

But there's a little confirmation bias in there, which I haven't met a surgeon that after surgery he says, or she says, I think I left a sponge in, but we should be okay. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I missed a couple of sutures and, you know, internal bleeding. We'll deal with that later. Fair. So there's a, that's fair.

Yeah. There's a bias that like like once you make the decision i made the right choice right but i agree with you that i've seen it play out over and over again that there's you're just usually you're hanging on too long and then the other thing is you know i was talking to somebody else who had one of these people and they didn't work for us it was a friend and i just said you want to know how everybody else is thinking of you right now they're asking the question. You stand up and talk about culture. You stand up and talk about how important it is. And you let this person sit on your team. Like, what do you think they're thinking of you? Like you're just your actions or

speak way louder than your words. Nobody wants the person. I mean, even if you have a dip for a period of time, because they were so amazing, it doesn't last long. When you think about purpose, how do you help crosswalk that into your team? Yeah. Purpose, is it either to help uncover their purpose or to help them live in alignment with the purpose of the organization? How do you go about purpose for the team? We get super clear on the purpose of the organization. So that for us is empowering every organization and every clear on the purpose of the organization. So that for us is empowering

every organization and every person on the planet to achieve more. So that's a super clear purpose. And it is, everybody knows it. We align around it. We're super clear about that. I think a personal purpose can be very, very different person by person. So I think it's important that when we create, back to kind of creating space, they create the space to understand their own. Because it's not going to be the same as mine. And it's not going to be the same as the person sitting next to them. They're there for whatever reason they're there. And I think getting sort of dialed into what that is, is quite freeing, and really creates clarity. So I think that for us is just about having honestly, some of the

things we've done with you, which is getting people clear on what that is. Then when we understand everybody else's, even if you just think about it from a leadership team perspective, super powerful. It helps you understand why somebody comes at something the way that they do. Then we ask those folks to do it with their leadership teams and so on and so on and so on. You create this opportunity down the line for everybody to think about what is important or what their purpose is.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day and Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets,

and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life

is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum.

With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmasterY at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. People on your team have told me how great it is to be on your team. That's nice. Yeah. They have told me like they feel like they won the jackpot, like, you know.

So how do you create that sense of team mating? I think part of it is you pick the right people. So I think there's a lot that goes into, I'm super selective. A lot goes into the why I pick the people that I pick, even as I think about the dynamic of the team. So you might have two people that are equally skilled, but there's something about one candidate versus the other

that fits the dynamic of the team better. And I think the team dynamic is crazy powerful because it just will create energy and momentum. And so I think about that a lot. I try at least that everybody is as important as the next person. I don't care what your job is. Like before we go into that piece here,

like do you hire slow or do you know exactly what you're looking for? I, I would hire, I would say at a average pace, I wouldn't say I hire fast, but I don't hire slow. I try to hire at a reasonable pace, but I usually do know what I'm looking for.

And it's, it can be different depending on the role or the makeup of the team. If there was a couple of buckets that you want to make sure you fill, or that person fills, what are those? Let's assume they're capable, like obviously. Technically. Technically capable that they have. Usually, I like people who have runway,

meaning they have the potential to do something else or more. I generally look for people who represent our culture or what we want or what I want out of how people behave, how they treat others, how they treat admins is the biggest sign of how— Do you do your homework there? Oh, yeah. You have somebody or yourself call their former admin? Everybody. You do all the due diligence on how they behave when people aren't watching. The scouts, whether it's the Seahawks or another team,

during the selection process, they go back and make sure that they understand the strength coach's point of view. Exactly. Yeah, and the really good ones, when we have good relationships at the universities before we're drafting them to come in the NFL, have relationships with the janitorial services like hey what did you notice yes and you should see when they come alive like oh you asking me yeah we're asking you like and they're like oh it's like yeah yeah like oh let me tell you I always had to pick up his bottles that you

know it's like oh really it much. Yeah. I like to have meals with them because I like to see how they treat the waitstaff. I think that's hugely telling. It's amazing how people will slot right into sort of who they are really in those types of environments, which I think is super interesting. And then, you know, I think I'm looking for people who will are learners, who do have some sort of growth mindset that recognize they're not always right and that are interested in learning from each other. Like I'm a big believer, like you have to learn from those on your team and you have to have each other's back. Are you going to have somebody's back or are you going to care

about yourself first? I think people have to understand that we go hard. I mean, you know this about us. It's intense. It is. And I think people have to separate what they're doing at work with however they're going to recover. And that looks different for different people. What does that mean? To me, it means, are you sitting in a corner reading a book? Perhaps that's how you recover. Are you exercising? Are you eating right? Are you spending time laughing with family and friends? Are you going for a walk? What is it for you that lets you separate your mind from this intense pace that we run? Because it'll burn people out if you don't have that moment or moments and you don't work them into your routine. It's brutal. And you can see it on people like when they're not taking the time when they're not taking the time,

when they're not putting the energy in on their own selves, it's not sustainable. Is it a daily practice for you or is it- It has to be. A weekly practice? Daily. It's a daily practice. Yeah. And you have to find the time to do it. I think that's the piece. You got to create the space, whether it's, I'm just going to go for a walk this morning. I went for a walk. Whatever

it is, you have to create the space. Is it structured for you or is it more intuitive? I would say if, if I'm not traveling, it depends on my schedule. If I'm at home, if I'm working from home, it's super structured and it's very easy because it's like, you get up, you work out, you, you have your smoothie, you know, you're like, it's a very bing, bing, bing. When you're on the road, your schedules can be crazy. So you have to figure out where can you fit it in? Is it literally 15 minutes of, you know, doing a core workout or something on the floor in the hotel room if you have to. Physical movement is important for me.

It's big. I need physical movement. It like clears my brain. It's, it just is something I've always done. So it feels very strange when I'm not doing it. How important is managing that second narrative, the critical part, the critical self? Really super important. Yeah. Like how, how are you doing there? I go through phases, I think generally on how I'm doing. It sounds pretty honest there. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you're like, I am on it. You know what I mean? Like you feel good. You're like, you're in your zone. You're like, it's, it's You know what I mean? Like you feel good. You're like, you're in your zone. You're like, it's firing on all cylinders. You're coaching yourself well. Yes.

Other times I feel like, man, get it together. Like you're not like, you're falling off on sort of your personal, whether it's fitness, whatever it is. Like if you feel like you haven't accomplished what you want. Let's stay here because I think you're onto something really important because take the premise, I'm trying to be my best, right? You are too. Yes.

Okay. And at the end of the day, did I make, what percentage of my choices beautifully lined up with that aspiration? Okay. Well, you know, I. You're doing pretty good so far today. Yeah. No, no, yeah.

No, I'm thinking about like, okay, yesterday was good. So I got on the, I wanted to eat, yesterday was good. So I got on the plane. I wanted to eat. I ate a salad before I got on the plane. Okay. And I was like, okay, so that's good. It was salad, clean protein, happy days. And then I wasn't going to eat on the plane because it's usually really salty, whatever.

And then I said no. And then I smelt it. And I said, yeah, I'll take one of those. And so then I got off the plane I was sitting for a while and I was like why did I do that like it was I wasn't like hard on myself critical but I I know curious yeah I know that that wasn't the choice for my best self that was the choice for my immediate pleasure okay so does that ring a bell? This is like exhausting in some respects for, you know, like it's an all day long.

I mean, it's very funny you say this because yesterday we started really early. Yeah. We never had time to eat lunch. We didn't have time to eat dinner. So it was like, I'm eating chocolate covered pretzels in the car. Like terrible choice. Terrible. Where did they come from? They came from the store that someone might perhaps have bought for me. Yeah. So like,

but I know this, and this is where my wife and I, but then I was like, who cares? I mean, at the end of the day, like, well,

okay. But that's, this is what I want to square. Yeah. Trying to be your very best. And then who cares when it's like inconvenient? Well, I,

because if you're, no one can do it a hundred percent of the time. I don't know. If you do, are you happy? I don't know. Okay. Well, I'm okay saying to myself, I don't need to do it a hundred percent of the time. Yeah. If I do it 80% of the time, that's really good. Yeah. So that's, it's being provocative because with Olympic athletes, we're trying, and elite athletes, we're trying to help them be in striking range between 87 and 92. Yeah. And they're elite athletes. Yeah.

I'm pretty good at 80. A hundred is, you know, I won't eat the whole box, but I'll do 80% of the box. Yeah. Okay, good. I just have a big handful. That's right. Yeah. This is the real conversation about how to live a good life.

Yes. It starts with how we speak to ourselves. Yes. And there's this constant compromise between the aspiration and the reality. Yes. And then how I navigate that gap really makes me who I am in so many ways. I don't have it dialed in. I'm more aware of how I work with myself than I was five years ago, 15 years ago.

I'm way better at it. And there's still like aspirationally much more room to go. Every day. How connected are you to friends? Pretty connected, but I don't have a lot of friends. I have a lot of acquaintances. Yeah. I have a few very good friends. Would you say that that feels good to you? Yes.

Yeah. It does. And you feel close to them? I feel very close to them. I go sort of all in. Do you know what that feels good to you? Yes. Yeah, it does. And you feel close to them? I feel very close to them. I go sort of all in. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like pretty loyal to very few people. Yeah. And it's time consuming. If you're a super good friend, it takes time. There's a sacrifice there. There is. And they sacrifice for you too. And I think it can't be that many. Friendship of convenience is very different than the friendship of intimacy. Yes yes and that means that

you're there for the the hard parts yep and it's you know my wife said to me um right when we had our son like look i want to get on the same page with you parenting is inconvenient like we're gonna he's gonna throw some tantrums he's gonna this is like always too yeah and there's gonna and we're gonna have to make some calls that will be hard. And I was like, oh, I like this. I like the challenge. But that's where the commitment to another person is expressed in those moments when it's hard.

Yes. Yeah. So you're a good friend, it sounds like. I hope so. You'd have to ask him, but I think so. Yeah. It'd be fun. Yeah.

It'd be fun to call him. Yeah. I'd give you some numbers. You can call him. Get a readout on me. I would imagine I would answer. Okay. All right. Let's turn the page here a little bit to ai and human potential yeah okay so i'm not asking about ai and the technology not i'm interested in how you're thinking about the

human slash technology interface between yeah the two yeah and i'll just speak from my experience and then i'll kind of give you examples of some of the experiences I've had with customers or others. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change.

That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery, it's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty

amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you the code findingmastery at iRestore.com slash finding mastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars

of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you.

And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at checkout.

That's Lisa, L-E-E-S-A dot com. The promo code is FINDINGMASTERY for 25% off. And then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I find it sort of exhilarating because I think when you understand what it can help you do, you feel more productive. You feel like you're doing something neat and new and you're learning. And I think it's creating more potential because it's helping you do things that perhaps you need help on

or that just frankly give you more hours in the day. I'm a big believer of anything that can give me a few more hours. I'm taking it. So I think it's pretty neat. Yeah, the research is 30%, right? Yeah. About 30% more time is allocated if you start using the technology.

30%. For me, it's about putting things in the flow of the day. That's right. Whether it's my refrigerator is, I'm better when my refrigerator looks pretty good. I'm better when my shoes are in front of my garage door, my fitness shoes, right? I'm better when I prime some

things for the recovery bit. I'm better when I've scheduled in my calendar time for meditation. So it's this upstream. I'm better when I know how to use the technology. And I'm not quite there yet. And look, I'm pushing really hard on understanding its capabilities. The biggest piece of advice that I have when it comes to anything related to AI, this is change management. This is behavioral change. That is not about the technology. The technology enables that, but you've got to figure out how to allow yourself to work differently. Those who allow themselves to work differently are the ones who are going to have the 30% productivity gains because they're willing to try something.

I think it's that kind of stuff, not giving up. The first prompt doesn't work, prompt it again, prompt it again. You'll start to learn how to write better prompts. You'll start to get better at it. It will learn as you're developing with. I think there's those types of things to stick with it. Is Microsoft going to be a tool or a platform? We're a platform.

Yeah, period. We're a platform, period. Yeah, so it's resting on Azure Teams, the whole, right? And then, and so, but Copilot is a tool. Yep. So is it more, you are a platform, but you've got this powerful tool. Yes. And how ought the innovators be thinking about using Microsoft's platform and tool for what they're trying to solve in their life?

I think it's a lot of things. First of all, if you think about Azure, which is our cloud platform, Azure OpenAI data services is the AI sitting on top of the platform. Everything we build is using our capability in AI data services. And that's what Copilot is or the other things that we build with AI. I actually think about Copilot as sort of, it's what we built to give you to get going. And then you might continue to build different versions of AI yourself. And that's the power of the tool or the platform. So because it all resides together, it can interact in a way that can really enhance the way people work every single day.

We love people to think about it in the context of Copilot as just one example of the way to utilize AI. That's something that can apply to every person in the organization. But you also want to think about how do you impact business process? How do you actually find ways to mobilize or impact people differently? Because you can actually insert AI into a business process so the process itself is better. And so that's where we think people look at it in terms of functions inside the organization.

So an HR function, a customer service function, you can actually think about how you build capability, whether we build it for you using services teams, or you build it yourself, or you use a third party, we don't care. The idea is just now you have this amazing, robust platform. You can just go. So now let me just ping pong back to this other idea about how you sell. Now this is technical skills. So you're selling this new thing, and there's a nexus happening globally about how

we're going to do this next generation of tech. And it's requiring behavioral change. And there's a radical opportunity for Microsoft here, meaning a radical opportunity for you. And so what are your technical chops on how you sell? Are you selling a promise? Are you selling a solution? Are you selling... Oh, this is such a good question. Yeah. I think we're selling value. We have to learn how all of this capability results in value for the customer.

The end game is what is better for the customer because they're using this technology. Technology will always be an enabler, whether it's AI or whatever it is. Can we explain to a customer why it's better for them based on the technology they're using? And that could come in many forms. So example. Yes. You have a call center. You have 45,000 agents.

You have agents that are paging through manuals. So when a customer calls, they're like, ah, and they're trying to find the answer to whatever the problem might be. Can we build an agent that does that for you? So in seconds, you can respond to a customer instead of having to have the customer on hold, escalate the customer to not getting a first call resolution. That type of stuff is insane value because you see better customer sat, you see better employees sat. The employees are happier because they can solve the problem better. You can handle nine cases a day instead of three. All those types of productivity gains.

That's the story that we have to tell so people understand why the technology is valuable to them. Is that valuable for the line worker or is that valuable for the CEO? It's actually, in that case, it's all of them. Because the line worker in that case, we actually, because this, by the way, we're customer zero in this example. And so we've run our own studies on what's happening. Our own internal employee sat has gone up because the stress of solving a customer problem when you're taking those calls

is pretty high. If you can get to first call resolution, if you can find the answer to the problem faster because you have agents that are surfacing it for you. If you can write a better email because they're actually prompting emails for you, the agents, that's amazing. So everyone wins. The customer service person wins, the customer wins, and the company wins in that example. Yeah. So you're selling value. Yeah. Yeah. And then how much do you use storytelling, which you just used right now? All the time. Yeah. Storytelling. Now we're not like transparently, this is something we have to, people have to learn how to tell stories and that's not easy so i think we go through that process of training back to sort of kind of in our world and technology one of the hardest things is the technology moves so fast that you're in this constant cycle of trying

to keep people trained and skilled so not only are you trying to skill them on what the technology can do, you're trying to skill them on what the story or the value is to the customer. And that might be different. We have different roles that do different things in our organization, and it's happening so quickly that you're trying to upskill everyone as it's happening, which is very unique right now.

It has not been like this at this pace since I've been in technology. It's incredible. Yeah. You know what I love about your style of selling? Not since I've been in technology. It's incredible. Yeah. You know what I love about your style of selling? Not that I've been on the other end. You've never sold me anything, but you don't sell the doom and gloom and we have a solution. Right.

And I think part of it comes from just the energy and excitement we have over what we're doing. Yeah. There is a buzz. It's in there. Do you know what I mean? I think there's part of it is sort of just like, man, this is cool stuff that we get to do. And so I think people sort of start above the line.

And I think it's just our culture. Like we're not, we're not doom and gloomer people, you know, we're not naysayer. We're not trying to, we're not a fear based, we're not trying to drive people to do something out of fear. We're trying to drive them to do something because it's great for them and it's great potential for their company. Just as a note for fun. Yeah.

I've been fortunate to be, have a front view, front row view for Microsoft for like about 10 years now. Just yesterday I spoke to the new class coming in, in your sales unit and they're different. This class is different. Yeah. Like there was an energy, there was a noticeable noticeable i don't know what you guys did on selection but there is a i'm really excited to see what this class does great yeah it was it was fundamentally different that is in the way that they felt good in the room and you know it's a

large room yeah it's a big group yeah it's a big group yeah so i'm really excited to see what you know what this like next little phase looks like yeah it's really cool and they i love i love kind of the outside in eyes are so great yeah i just love i love sort of their view on sometimes we do things and they're like that doesn't make any sense and they're sometimes very right and the worst answer well that's how we do it yeah that is yeah thank you so much for a couple things one. One, this conversation. Lovely. It's so good to see you. Yeah, for sure. And the way that you make me feel at Microsoft.

So thank you for that as well. Each time that I get to work with your teams and you and like, there's just a rich appreciation. Hugely. We are so grateful. Yeah, you make me and us feel a certain way to work with you. And so thank you for that. And so that's awesome. Thank you for that. Well, that's, I mean, you're all amazing. Like we've, we've, we've benefited so much. I mean, I was just thinking the other day about the work you were doing with us, with my leadership team during COVID and it was, it was intense. I mean, if you remember those

times, it was early, it was intense and it just, I don't know, you bring such a calm sense of potential. That is awesome. I think that's what it is. It's just this calm sense of potential. And everybody always walks away feeling good about themselves, good about the team, good about the focus, good about the investment. That's really cool. I mean, we care about this stuff.

And so I think that's why you're there. And people see that. And they don't all come from places where that was the case. Would you be open if I shared with you how I see you? I would love it. Are you sure? Yes. I'm scared, but yes.

You're an unconventional risk taker. There's five different types of risk. And so you take emotional and social risk. And it is one of your superpowers that you do that. You take care of people when you do it. You mentioned that today, but I've seen it in action. So you're really open to ideas. Yeah. You're very open to experiences, but there's a, there's a social line that you, you, you stay within, like there's a more a, like you're not on the fringe of like, I don't know, pushing taboos, but you're really curious and open.

You have just the right amount of neurotic energy to allow me to feel like you are really in it. Yeah. And it's not about you. Yeah. So there's a nervousness and an excitement that comes forward that is just the right amount to know that I'm with someone that's real. You're agreeable, but then you take it away when you don't agree. So you say, yes,

I see that part of it, and then you'll take it away. So you're not like, I think you're cult proof. So you're not going to get sucked into a narrative and like, this is, you know, so just the right amount of agreeableness that you have, you're an independent thinker. There's a, you're, you're naturally extroverted, but you have internal feelings that you work to bring forward. So private with your feelings, but you're bringing them probably more forward than you ever have in your life. I think that you process information really quickly and are able to simplify it and express it to others. So you like a lot of information coming in and are able to simplify it and express it to others.

So you like a lot of information coming in and then you simplify it before it comes out, which is the systems thinking piece. You probably worry more than what other people would know. Oh, totally. You're so good at this. Yeah. Actually, I don't know how they did it, but they gave me a little certificate that says I should do this more often. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that's kind of probably related to the anxiousness.

But you worry about people. I do. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's how I see it. Like, I would love to work in your organization with you because I think you really care. I do. That's awesome. Thank you.

You're welcome. Wow. What a great day. Okay. Mastery is. Well, you know, can I just say, I like that you say finding mastery. You do like that. Because it's a journey. It's never, I don't think anyone's like, I have found it. Mastery is here. I just think it's... Mastery is in the seat. Yeah, right. Okay. I think mastery is getting to a place or traveling to a place that is honing all of the things that matter to you in your life. It's not just about your work skill or if you're an athlete, how fast you are or whatever it is. I think it's getting to a place where you feel like you're honing

all the things that really matter, and that you're sitting in sort of a calm, confident place, that you're doing all those things to get there. That's what it feels like. That's sort of how I think of mastery. Nobody has ever described it that way. Really? Yeah, it's really well done.

Great way to end the conversation. Deb, thank you for coming in. Thank you. Oh my God, what a treat. Great to see you. Next week on Finding Mastery, I sit down with the best-selling author, Robert Greene. We explore the path of true mastery of craft and self.

We dive into the psychology of power, the importance of finding your life's task, and the profound lessons that he's learned from overcoming his biggest challenge yet. Tune in next week and make sure you catch this deep and thought-provoking episode. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on

Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same.

So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support,

which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.