Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Hardest Moments are the Most Rewarding | Endurance Runner, Shalane Flanagan

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Shalane Flanagan, an American endurance legend, being one of the few distance runners to earn first-name recognition rights. Shalane's remarkable career spans nearly 20 years… she’s a 4x Olympian (Athens, Beijing, London and Rio), becoming an Olympic medalist in Beijing.She’s a New York City Marathon champion, where she was the first American woman to win it since 1977.After retiring from professional running in 2019, Shalane underwent two knee reconstruction surgeries, started a new coaching career and became a mom, all while navigating the realities of a global pandemic. In 2021, she undertook a personal mission: Project Eclipse – to run six major marathons in a span of six weeks - as a way to reclaim her love for the sport of running and to bolster her mental and physical health.Shalane also took on the challenge as a way to inspire others to rise up in the face of their own struggles. She completed all six, including the major races Berlin, London, Chicago, Boston and New York City, in a time of under 2:50, with the fastest and final New York City marathon in only 2:33.Shalane’s career has been extraordinary so far, and is still far from over. After hearing this conversation, I think you’ll be inspired to go and “do the hard things” in your life as well._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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We are pulling back the curtain to explore how they have committed to mastering both their craft and their minds in an effort to express their potential. Through these conversations, you'll not only hear their stories, but you'll learn more about their habits, the practices, and the approach that they take to be able to achieve and experience the extraordinary. Now, we know that our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, this is just a quick little reminder here to check out our online performance mindset training course, where we have pulled together the best practices to meet that unique intersection of the psychology of high performance and the psychology of wellbeing. We will walk you through 16 essential

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Shalane Flanagan, an American endurance legend, being one of the few distance runners to earn first name recognition rights. It's very cool. Her remarkable career spans 20 years. She's a four-time Olympian, Athens, Beijing, London, and Rio, becoming an Olympic medalist in Beijing. She's also a New York City marathon champion. She was the first American woman to win since 1977. And then after retiring from her career

in 2019, she underwent two knee surgeries, started a coaching career, and then became a mom, all while navigating the realities of the global pandemic. And then in 2021, she undertook a personal mission. This is super inspiring. Project Eclipse. To run six major marathons in a span of six weeks. And this was a way for her to reclaim her love for the sport of running and to bolster her mental and physical health. Shalane also took up the challenge as a way to inspire others to rise up in the face of their own struggles. And as a footnote, she completed all six, including the major races in Berlin, London,

Chicago, Boston, and New York City. And she did them all under two hours and 50 minutes. That's 250. Amazing. With the fastest in New York City in that marathon at two hours and 33 minutes. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend, Shalane Flanagan. Shalane, how are you? I am wonderful. How are you?

I'm fantastic. Yeah. And I've been really looking forward to spending time with you. Your body of work is exceptional. Your insights are rich. And so I'm incredibly excited to learn from you. But I thought maybe we could start with what is the hardest thing that you do? At the moment, it is being a parent and being a mom to my son, Jack, who's 20 months old. And I have always wanted to be a mom. And I knew it was going to be extremely rewarding. And I find that hard things are rewarding. But the hardest thing I do is waking up every day and bringing the energy to my son and making sure he stays safe and, you know, just creating a really great environment for him. I'd say that that's the hardest thing I do every day. And you're going to be borrowing from your insights of your parents like we all do.

And maybe we can just set the scene a little bit. Both of your parents have a rich understanding of human performance. And so can you highlight some of their successes, which is really cool? And then can you also give me an understanding of what it was like growing up with accomplished parents? I like to joke. I chose my parents very well. They genetically gave me and passed along some great genetics.

Both of them were world-class runners. They actually met at world cross country in Europe. So obviously very high caliber running. And my mom probably has the biggest accolade to her name of at one point being the world record holder in the women's marathon. And at the time, no women had broken three hours and she did. And she didn't hold it for very long. But it's amazing where athletics, especially for women, has moved and transcended to and the opportunities that I've received, that they were that good of athletes. So growing up, like now I know, and I have the comparison of my own career and knowing how hard it is to be great at this level and excel. But growing up, I just saw them as my parents. I just saw two people that love the outdoors. I grew up in Boulder, Colorado for the first five years of my life. And I grew up running up in the mountains and into the flat iron hills. And I was in a culture and a climate in which running was really popular. Frank Shorter era. And I grew up in the back room, shoe room of Frank Shorter's running store. And I just thought it was normal that everyone ran and exercised. And, um, but I found out later in life that that was maybe not so normal. They never pushed me into running. Um,

I, they threw a million sports in my way, but I always gravitated as a little girl towards running. Cause I felt this just like innate calling that I was really good at it. I could just feel it. And I felt the best about myself. I felt the most confident, the most beautiful. I just, every positive feeling when I was running, I felt just, it came out while I was actually running. And I could just sense that this was something I was going to be really good at. And, but I, my parents made me play a bunch of sports, um, my sister and I and soccer, skiing, swimming, um, and nothing really stuck. I was not very gifted in any of those other sports. So it kind of made it easier, um, for them to allow me to pursue running

more and more as I go older. Um, but yes, thankfully chose my parents very well. And on top of it, I seem to have the same passion to find out how good I could be in running. I, you know, the cynic in me, which I'm, I'm not very cynical, but the cynic in me is like, okay, two world-class parents. There's either an obtuse obsession about running and you would kind of be force fed to run either from a very concrete, explicit standpoint from your parents, or there was a manipulation, a great manipulation, you know? And so, and what I hear you saying, and the great manipulation is something like choose whatever you want. We're going running. If you don't run, you have to do something.

And if you don't do something well, well, you probably should run because you're, you know, we're doing that. And I don't know, maybe that's not so subtle, but you know, so it sounds like it wasn't that it sounds like it was something a bit different. They were constantly trying to get me to not run. I'll be on like they would. Why, why, why is that? I think they, they knew that I had a gift. I think they could see it. Um, and you know, I don't know how they saw it. Yeah. But why would they push against your gift? I think they were wanting to delay. I think they were worried about me getting into running too soon and being this prodigy and the expectations and the weight of that at a young age. I think they knew if they gave me any little bit of training, I would fly. I had the just

natural genetics to be good at running. And I think they wanted to delay that success. And they wanted it to genuinely be my choice that I was a runner. They did not want anything of what they had done to influence my decision. They wanted it to be genuinely my decision. So they definitely took a step back and they let me explore a variety of sports. And in fact, constantly were trying to derail me from running, like saying, nah, let's do something else. And in fact, I didn't run all year round until I got to college. And that is very rare. Nowadays, I feel like children are so singularly focused and want to hone their skills and get into a good college and a scholarship.

And my parents were constantly saying, no, let's try something else. And I think they really wanted to reinforce being very well-rounded and also appreciative of the skill sets, uh, that I weren't good at because that actually made me a better athlete and a better person. They felt like if I could learn how to lose and lose well and take those, um, emotions and drive and apply that to when I actually am good at something, um, there'll be more value, um, in pursuing that other goal. Is your family motto, not model, is your family ethos more around achievement and excellence, which are not the same, they're different, but are they more around one of those two or the feeling

of being alive when fill in the blanks, running, running at the edge, running a capacity, you know, or maybe a fourth option for you guys is that movement is a lifestyle. And, um, you know, if you happen to be really great at this movement, then keep going. So, or something in between, but how do you respond to those handful options? That's a good question. You know what I should ask them? My mom is down the hallway and my dad lives up the street, so I should go ask them. But, um, I, I feel like they, at the end of the day, they've always said they want their children to be happy and, um, just feel fulfilled and purpose in their life. And so, um, I think they saw the confidence and

the happiness that running brought me. And my dad would always say like, he didn't want me to ever, when I was younger train, it was more, let's go play running, which is a strange thing to say, right? Like playing, running, you play soccer, you play basketball, but playing running. Um, but it always stuck with me that there should be something joyful about running. And so I think it's more the, like you said, the ethos is in the concept. I felt like growing up was let's find out how good you can be, but that should be a fun pursuit. There shouldn't be a weight and a heaviness of expectations. It should be, let's just see what you can do. This is so fun. Push yourself, push your mind, push your body and find out where the limitations are. And if you can, like in that pursuit of it is a lot of joy and a lot of connection with

community and with other people. And in that regard, it enhances your life and you feel really alive when you're pursuing something at a high level. And so that's kind of the concept that I, I took with me, um, in my running. And I, I feel like it benefited me with that mindset. And I'm not saying I'm perfect that I was always like that, but I, if I ever had to recenter myself and figure out why I was doing something, those were the concepts that I'd always try to draw upon. Okay. I want to Mark three phases and then ask two questions

for each phase. So let's go high school, middle school in that range. Then let's go college and then post. Okay. So the first question that we'll go through horizontally, if you will, is I was scratchy, like internally agitated and scratchy. Youy. The thing that was really unsettling for me at each point. So as a high school and middle school, I was scratchy about. Yeah. My parents were divorced and I felt very different than my peers. So I think I definitely felt like an outsider and I always wanted to fit in. And my dad would remind me, he'd always say, dare to be different, Shalane. It's okay to be different, be uniquely you. And, um, so I think it was like, I felt scratchy about my uniqueness and being different. And the fact that I liked

running and it was not popular when I was in middle school and high school and choosing a sport, um, that wasn't popular and trying to find my own path and having confidence in that path made me very scratchy. Yeah. So you needed running. It sounds like at that level, like you're good at it. They kept throwing other things in your way. There was an unsettled family dynamic. You didn't know how you quite fit in because a lot of your other friends, maybe their parents were intact in that way, maybe miserable, but intact at least. That's again, the cynic, the cynic leaking out, but I'm really not a cynic, but, you know, and, and then, and then you felt at home with running. And so your parents were mindful that

overtraining is an issue, but in some respect you needed running to be able to start to build your identity. 100%. Yeah. Okay. So that sets me down and really interesting path. I'll share with you in a minute. Okay. So then the second during college, let's go college years. I was unsettled. I was scratchy about. Yeah. Just wanting to prove that I was, um, and feel validated by the fact that I was given this opportunity to go to a university that I probably didn't deserve to get into based on my academics and scores. And so I felt the need to feel validated in that and honor that scholarship through my running. And so I was so hungry and like itchy and scratchy to get to that next level and to be so good that I'd have the opportunity to go

beyond college and have more running in my life. I was anxious and scratchy to get results that were worthy of validating the scholarship and where I was, and then also to extend my running just beyond that four-year period. I wanted to keep running in my life forever. Okay. And underneath, what did that dialogue monologue sound like inside of you? Um, this is an intimate question. Yeah. I realized that I'm curious if I'm good enough to like, if I'm introspective enough, cause I don't know that I've ever thought of that dialogue. But, yeah, like, I definitely, you know, I think. to a degree, really liked having a skill set that was exceptional and also seeking to a degree like the validation of the attention felt good. Coming from a place where in middle school and high

school, I was kind of ostracized and made fun of and to a degree, just like seeking the validation for myself, from others to, um, that my path was, um, worthy of the time. And, um, so if we, if there's a bridge between those two, which is, I was ostracized, made fun of, was it because of your, your body type, which is perfectly fit for, um, um, genetically fit for running or was it your parents? Uh, was it a mole that you have on your cheek? And I don't know if you have a mole, like what, what was the thing? Did you have a stutter? What, what were you being? No. Um, it's because I just wasn't, um, falling in line with what other, what my peers were into. Like, so my peers would go out on a Friday, Saturday

night and, um, they'd call me and they'd say, Oh, we're going out and we're going to, we're going to meet up and we're going to go to the beach and we're going to drink and we're going to do this and that. And, um, I would be like, nah, I'm cool. I'm hanging out with my dad tonight. Um, you know, I've got a race on Saturday and I was, I was invested and I liked being with my family. I liked being with my parents. And, um, I was like in this weird world of, um, just being, trying to be in with the cool kids, but I, my natural being was not to meet what they thought was fun. Actually wasn't what I genuinely thought was fun. So I was struggling with, um, trying to fit in. Um, but as well, honoring the fact that I

know I have something special within me. And I want to find out like, if I do and, and where it's going to lead me and take me and it just, yeah, yeah. Okay, very cool. Go back to the college mode here that we're working from. And then that intimate question, what did I say to myself? Can you go there one more time? Because listen, what you've done is extraordinary. And you've got a real commitment to mental health. And we'll get to that in a moment. But I want to know what you were saying to yourself. Like, golly, I don't fit in. Man, what are they going to think of me? Jeez, when am I ever going to feel okay? I don't know what they were, but I do want to know what those kind of, those are the scratchy thoughts. And then I'm super interested how you worked with them, but I want to get to that later. But what were some of the very specific thoughts that you were saying?

There's a little, I'm sorry, there's a little reconstructionist here, you know, like going back. Yeah. I think also just, I genuinely loved, really genuinely loved working hard and finding out like, man, like I loved finishing a workout and like making myself sick. Like I loved pushing my physical limits, which also goes hand in hand with the mental. And so, you know, I'd get to a point in a session and in a workout where I'm like, my body is literally telling me like, you cannot go further. You have to slow down. And I'd keep like holding my hand on that like hot pad and finding out, you know, how long can I hold it? And, um, to me, there must be some, some masochist reason why, but like that too, was also just always like, I wanted to annihilate and attack everything, um, running wise. And there must be some type of like, I don't know, you would

probably know better than me, but some type of release, um of just like feeling in control of that, or I don't even know. But that was a constant thought of like, always like scratchy is like, I really just want to attack every single session that I'm allowed to go hard and really enjoyed that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus.

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Yeah. So there's an unhealthy, healthy thing happening there. Would you agree with that? Oh, totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And then did you have, and I didn't read this when I was learning about you, but did you have any eating disorder stuff? No, not, um, I would say my first year as a pro, um, when I graduated, I started to realize like, oh, I don't look like the other elite women. And here I am elite. Um, I'm wearing the kit. I got to look the part. And I feel like my first year as a pro. Doesn't it sound crazy when you say it out loud? Like as an adult, right? Yeah. Okay. But as, as a, as a pro, I was like, Ooh, I should probably try to look the part. And I feel like the first year as a pro,

I'm trying to like look the part. Um, I definitely didn't have a good relationship with food, but then I realized like, this isn't sustainable. Like I cannot have 20 years of running and live in, in this weird world of analyzing food. And so therefore I immediately was like, I have to, I have to recalibrate my thinking. Um, so I never saw anyone for it, but I remember voicing the concern to my husband, like, man, this isn't sustainable. The way I'm thinking about food, we have to, I have to like re rework that wiring in my brain. Um, but definitely not in college. If anything, I overate and, um, to compensate for the other athletes that were around me that did have eating disorders. I wanted to be like a good role model. And so I was at times I would overeat to try to like showcase like, Hey, you can be good.

You can be fast and yet, and you have to eat. So, yeah. So you were really aware of the forcing function that other people's opinions had on your thoughts and behaviors. Like you had this, so you had a, you had a meta awareness that I don't look a certain way or they're doing certain things. And so you had this meta-awareness. And then when you scoot into it just a little bit more, it sounds like you were at least moderately motivated by what other people were thinking about you. Probably. I think as at a younger age, that's for sure,

like definitely more weight than it does now, but for sure then the influence by the people, I mean, in general, like you're influenced by the people you're surrounded by, right? A lot. At least I feel that way. My happiness I know is largely influenced by the people I work with. And so I'm very calculated and careful with who I work with because I know that they have an infiltration into my subconsciousness that I'm not even aware of. So I'm very careful, I feel like. But maybe I learned that at a younger age because I did see how it was influencing me positively or negatively. Cool insight. When did that start to change for you when you're like, oh, like I can do better? I think when I probably after I graduated college and started to work with some people that I did not like working with and I realized it wasn't healthy.

And then that made it a lot more apparent that I needed to be more calculated about how I spend my time and who I spend my time with and who's in my circle and my team. And I've just made a conscientious decision to really be careful and just have enjoyed the fact that I, I do get to cultivate my environment more. I like having that autonomy and, um, but it probably took negative experiences probably to realize that that was something that had a strong hold on me. What is the size? And I'm going to go back to the scratchy thing for post post in your professional life, but what is the size of your inner circle now? Yeah, I don't, I mean, so on a daily basis who I would say that I work with, I mean, I have 19 athletes, but I don't, I don't see them every day.

We don't talk every single day, but I guess that would be considered my inner circle. And then I have three other coaches, therapists that are part of that circle. And then obviously my family is an integral part in what I do. They're almost like part of the family business. My parents help out with my son with childcare. And then I have other like sponsors and people that I work with through other companies. But I would say that the Bowerman Track Club, the athletes and the coaches that I work with through other companies, but I would say that the Bowerman track club, um, the athletes and the coaches that I work with is probably like my core people that I like communicate with the

most. And then my family that I'm very close to my family. Almost everyone lives right here, um, on the same street. So, um, they're a big part of my life. And what are some of the criteria that you have to invite people into this inner sanctum? that they have at least some decent communication skills, um, to be really real with me and authentic with me. Um, and then, you know, always in genuinely trying to, um, seek out what's best for each other and, and being real about what's best for each other. I would say, do you have a model of trust that would hinge on one side or the other that trust is given or trust is earned? Um, it's almost like I give them at first the trust or they, to me, and then it's through that first giving, um, that kind of either dictates whether it's further given, like genuinely given and continuously given. Um, but I think I'm in general trusting enough to like trust initially.

And then I see what people do with it, with that trust. Are people mostly benevolent or Machiavellian? I would say at least the people that I know are mostly benevolent, thank goodness. Yes. Yeah. So that's why you would give trust. Yes. More than say, you got to earn my trust. Yeah.

All right. And then these are good kind of framing questions to consider, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. It's making me reassess. I'm like, is that really what I think? Let me think. Yeah.

Let me think. Yeah. It is interesting in the sense that oftentimes we know what, and I think you're highly aware of it. You know what like the thing, the right thing to say is because you've been under a spotlight much of your life. So you're, you know what to say, what not to say, but then to get to the truth about what is real for you does require a different level of courage. And I believe that you are skilled at that too. And so after watching and listening to some of your interviews. And so, okay, so let's go back

up one level, which is in the post-college years, in the pro years. And there's probably a fourth column for us to work from, which is coaching. When you went from, you know, being in the amphitheater to coaching others in the amphitheater. Like there's probably a transition there. But what was scratching or unsettling when you were on the world tour? And while I loved being a professional athlete, I think what also scratched at me is what else I was probably missing in life with the full-on dedication and lifestyle towards this singular focus that at times made my job of running feel, feel heavy. I lost kind of, I think at times the joyfulness and the playfulness that I talk about because it was my job then. And I, at times just my relationship with, and the dynamic with running changed because it was a job. And so sometimes it, I would look at things that things that I couldn't go do because I had to make sacrifices to go towards the goal, right? And honor the gift and the goal that I had set for myself.

And as a result, there were a lot of things that, yeah, I did miss out on and wasn't a part of. I mean, I don't think in 20 years I went to a wedding or a funeral. And I think that level of selfishness just didn't sit well, like a lot of the time. And so that made it really difficult because I felt very torn. Like I wanted to be all in, committed to the objective and goals that I'd set for myself. And by doing that, honoring the people that were helping me get to the, achieve those goals. Um, there's a commitment for each individual athlete. There's, there's hundreds of people around them that help them achieve those goals. And so honoring them, but also honoring like my heart, which was torn at times, missing out on,

on family moments and just things that were important to me, memories that I wanted to have. But just knowing that there's a timeline and a ticking clock that was going to expire at some point athletically and honoring that while missing out on things, I think that itched and scratched to Um, just feeling like I was missing parts of life that were valuable that I would really want to be a part of that was got to be really hard. I hear it in your voice. Yeah. Do you feel it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Like there's, yeah, I have specific things that happened. I remember just thinking like, man, I can't believe I'm choosing running over not being there for this person. So come on, come on. Oh, you want those specifics?

Bring it forward. You happy to keep the names? Yeah. Well, yeah, no, my, my best friend, um, her husband, um, so the same age we grew up together and, um, she had only been married a year and her husband unexpectedly, like literally collapsed and died. Um, and she was living in New York and I was in park city, Utah training for the 2016 Olympics. And this was in June and I was getting ready to run the marathon in late July, August and a really crucial phase of training. And my coach did not want me to leave. And, um, I really, really struggled knowing that I couldn't be there for her in this really just awful time. And, um, I know that she probably didn't need me as much as I needed to be there. It was definitely more on my end, not just knowing that I wasn't present for her just really bothered me and thinking like, is, you know, whatever performance I put forth at the Olympics, is it really going to validate myself knowing that I wasn't there? And it still bothers me to

this day that I did not go and was not there, um, to help her and support her through that really tough time. So, um, things like that. I just, um, yeah, all for athletics. So, and it just seems like, it seems really kind of silly, like that that's what I would choose. But when you're in that moment and you've done so much to get to this point and you're like thinking, well, I may get an Olympic medal and like, that'll like that, that'll make this all worth it. And then when you don't get the Olympic medal and you're like, oh, and I gave up all that and I didn't achieve like the goal that I'd set out. It's really hard to stomach, um, the saying nose. Cause you know, it just, that was a hard no.

God, I appreciate that. You know, I have, as you're talking about that, I have almost the exact same experience in my life. My best man of my wedding. Um, I didn't go to his and shows work, you know, and you can't't you just can't get that back yeah you can't get it back exactly so how yeah it's it is hard it's hard to bring that forward so i'm i'm grateful that you are and the other part of the question is like what are you doing with that pain either how do you process it or how do you doing with that pain? Either how do you process it or how do you, once you bring it forward, how do you change or coach or be differently because of it? I am, I feel like since I retired extremely, I don't know, I've just become way more aware of

time and how I'm spending it. Because I did feel like I was in this time warp of, and like this weird chapter where it was so singularly focused, so selfish. And while it was great, it was, it was amazing chapter. I don't want to be like that at all. And it's like, made me feel like the antithesis of that chapter. And I feel like I notice like a lot more in life. I feel way more present and very, just like way more purposeful. And like, when I do have good days, I like really acknowledge it. And I'll say it a lot, like, man, today was like a great day. And it could not be like that cool of a day on paper. If you were to tell someone like what you did that day, um, it could just be like, Oh, like I hung out with my son and I changed his poopy diaper like

five times today. Like, but like, for some reason to me, there's other things that were happening in that day and they don't look that sexy on paper, but it was a great day. And I'm just wait a lot more, um, aware of the fact that we have limited time and to be just really grateful for the good days. And I just realized that sometimes normal is really great. And it takes usually traumatic, bad things to happen to appreciate normal. But I just, I genuinely do just appreciate a normal day more now for some reason. So you've talked about, you know, this pressure during the professional phase and one of those pressures being like the sacrifices and the choices that you're making. And it sounds like they're mostly about relationships and obviously motherhood is really important to you. This is not something I've had to contemplate

in my professional life is the pressures of carrying a child. And so there is a different set of requirements and challenges that you've had that men don't have. So I want to pull on this just a little bit, which is how have you been able to navigate that? And I'm wondering how that's folded into your love of coaching women. So can you talk about some of the choices that you're making relative to motherhood and when you're going to have a child and if you're going to have a child. And if you're going to have a child, if you always knew that you didn't know, can you just open some of that and help, help water this part of your life? Yeah. Um, so during my career and this is maybe more of an old school way of thinking, I definitely had it from a lot of sources ingrained in me that if I were to take myself seriously and do a very good job as an

athlete, um, motherhood really wasn't part of that picture that, um, it was not really realistic to try to have a child and also come back to a high level of elite running. So it was kind of ingrained in me that like, that's a separate chapter and you wait till you're done running to do that. Um, and I really struggled with it. Uh, it made me at times very unhappy feeling like I was delaying that part of my life when I wanted it to be integrated into my profession. Um, but I was a good, a good athlete. And I, I did that. I, I gave everything I had to my running and, um, I didn't, you know, integrate children into my life. We, my husband and I did do foster care, which did kind of fill that, that void that I was feeling. Um, and so we had, um, two identical teenage twin girls live with us for a year in 2016 to 2017. And ironically, like the highlight of my career was in 2017. So, um, I learned a valuable

lesson, uh, that children don't, don't take away. Yes. You don't get as much sleep, but they overall, for me, it, it completely enhanced my life for sure. Um, but I really did struggle and there weren't a lot of models, um, for me to model after in terms of just women being really successful and having children. And it's not been until as of late that it's become definitely more accepted and encouraged and communities and just families gathering around women and creating an environment in which they can do and can have it all. So I think, you know, at times I was resentful of running in my career because I didn't integrate that and have that aspect of my life. But yes, now that I'm retired and as soon after I retired, we adopted my son, Jack. I've always

to a degree known that I would want to adopt regardless of whether I could have my own or not. And we are looking to adopt again. And I don't know if we will have our own children, you know, biological or not. But I can say this, that regardless of that happens or not, I, the process of adoption and having Jack in my life, it's, it's crazy how things work out because I couldn't have dreamt up a better situation. And it's like, it was like, I was meant to wait to a degree to find him and to have him in our life. Cause he's exceeded, like I said, every expectation, the situation is just beautiful and wonderful. We have a really great relationship with his birth mom. Um, I feel like she's part of our family. And I never

knew that those kind of relationships would have been in my life. So I'm very grateful to have waited it out. But there were definitely, it was hard. There was nothing easy about trying to decide how to manage and pick the timing of everything, but I'm really happy with where I'm at now. And I think now moving forward with my athletes, if they come to me and they say, Shalane, like I'm really struggling with family life and athletics. I am going to completely say, you know, if it's in your heart that you want to become a mom now, I think you should, I don't, I don't think people should have the mentality of, of waiting. If that, if that's what they want, you know, their, their partner, um, if that's what they really want,

I don't, I don't think they should wait like I did, to be honest. So even though I feel like it's, it's worked out wonderfully for me. I just, I just feel like life is short and I just feel like there's a dream that you have of fulfilling. There's this like great country song I was listening to lately, or is like something along. We're not going to country, are we? Yes, we are. But it was, it was true. It was like, you know, the dream doesn't chase you back was like the line. I was like, Oh God, I feel that. So like, if you have a dream, I just feel like you, there's, there's a sense of urgency to what I feel like we need in our life and not

saying delayed gratification is great, but if that's what they really want, I would totally support and, and, and help them in any way possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-r-l-a-b.com slash finding mastery so this this part of the conversation is about like hard decisions you know and what i hear you saying is when something is animated and alive and there's real energy around it like follow that yeah it gets tricky when know, let's say we're three years into a quad and your PRs are setting world standards. And so, you know, and you're like trials are in six months and somebody comes to you and says, you know, I just want to have a child. child it's like when two things are amazing is actually a harder it's harder to make those decisions than if you're three years into the quad and you know you're way off world class times

okay and i want to be a you know i want to go into motherhood now that you're like okay yeah yeah might might really be a great time but okay so hard decisions cool and then one of the things i'm fascinated by with really fast runners, especially anybody at the elite stage in the ultra space is I want to understand how you do the hard thing. And we kind of touched on it earlier when you're younger, which was the hot stove and seeing how long I could keep it on there. Not, not literally, but one, there's an athlete that I, I learned this from Olympian did not podium was expected to podium. And he says to me, he goes, Mike, and he was a, he's a cyclist. And he said, I said, what's it like out there for you? And he goes, well, let me tell you as a road cyclist, he says, let me tell you, it is like having a toaster in the middle of your chest, as hot as you can imagine a toaster running.

And that's kind of what it's like for me the entire race. And like, oh my, like what a great visual anchor to go, oh, wow. And so when I'm out doing something hard, cardiovascular, cardiovascularly, is that the word? When I'm out doing something hard from a cardio perspective, I have that image to as a backstop. And I'm like, I don't think my toaster is as hot as his, like, there's no chance it is. I'm stealing that from you. Now, from now on, I'm stealing that from you now. From now on, I'm going to envision the toaster. So yeah, thank you. It's really good.

It is good. So how do you do it? When it gets hard, when it gets hard for you, and maybe you say, listen, running's not hard. I love every part of it. And you know, but what is hard? Go back to this during the running now. What is the hard part? And then if we just really drill into that, like how do you do those moments when it's really hard? Yeah. I think you have to backpedal. And when these elite athletes are doing something hard, one, they've chosen to do it. They're not forced to do it. They, they choose that hard. They get to choose hard. And, you know, like, there's a lot of things that come at us that we don't, we don't choose that hard. It's coming at

us and we have to manage it, but we didn't choose it. We get to choose to do the hard thing. So to me that, that says a lot, right. Um, but I think backpedaling to your training in training, I have always used, and I tried to to my athletes is this is the opportunity to practice every single day, dipping that toe into the hard and your level of, um, resiliency to the hard expands with the more times you dip your toe into the hard and it becomes part of normal life. It becomes like breathing. It becomes like a state of flow. Hopefully, at the biggest stage, you can enter that phase of like, it's really hard. It's not that it's any easier that day. But you've done it so much that it has become so routine, that you know how to manage and not allow emotion to enter and you have calloused the body and the brain so well in practice so many times that when you get to that state on that stage, there's usually hopefully a heightened sense of just like state of flow that you can enter in which that hard is no doubt really,

really freaking hard, but you have practiced it so much that it becomes just so innate, um, that you can't help, but manage and do the right thing. Um, frequently. How, how love it. How often do you get to that? Or did you get to that state? It's not race day. I'm really clear. It's not just race day. I'm really clear. But how often in training would you get the toaster all the way to 10 at 10? I would try to always have a little bit of it. Um, some days it was more engaged and it lasted longer. Like I really had to have that toaster oven, um, on for a long amount of time. Um, and some days it was shortened and it was just a little taste of it, but for every session that was an

orchestrated session and like a workout, there's like training days, which are just general jogging, light running days, um, that didn't involve any, any, um, pain that was more like mental fatigue and getting through the mental fatigue of just an easy run. but any day that was specific quality, um, I'd always try to find an opportunity to have a little bit of that pain and discomfort because it was just reminding me, like, this is what it's going to feel like. And the more I can callous myself towards accepting that that's the reality of racing, the better off I was on race day. What a model. Yeah. So you're callous is super like, that is your model. You know, some are more like keto summer. There's lots of models, but you're like, yeah, I just, okay. I want to be more callous with it.

Callous the brain and the body. Yeah. What do you say to yourself when you're approaching or in the thick of it? Um, uh, there's a, it just depends on the day. I feel like there's different, um, different thoughts and different things that can enter. And it's never, I don't think it feel like it's ever exactly the same because every situation is different. Um, but generally is that knowing the disappointment of giving into the pain is usually greater than that actual pain in that moment. And I hate more than anything disappointing myself. I can handle being disappointed in someone else actually better than knowing because only I know exactly how I'm managing it. And I know whether I'm going to be disappointed in myself or not.

And it has nothing to do with anyone else. And I know exactly what I'm capable of to a degree. And if I can just get myself to wrap my head around the fact that it will go away, it's not a forever pain. And knowing that it's not forever and that the repercussions are possibly reaching another level or just finding out like just how good I can be against everyone else. Like that was, that was enough for me to do it. And would you, it was, is the approach. So it's, I love that you're saying it's always different, which is, it's true for me too. It's not like there's a stock go to, but what I'm trying to understand and you answered it, which is what's the orientation is the orientation like, Oh, I love it. I'm there finally. Okay,

great. You know, or is it like, God, this again? No, it's not that. Is it like, okay, grind it, numb it. You're fine. Foot strike, foot strike, foot strike. You're okay. Breathe, breathe, breathe. You're okay. Which is more technical associative as opposed to, um, breathe, you're okay. Which is more technical, associative, as opposed to this flavor of appreciation. And so that's what I'm trying to sort out for you right now. I mean, there may be some cursing. I'm from Boston. So there may be like, oh, like every curse word you can think of is like, this is not fun right now. This is not fun. And a lot of curse words. And then it probably gets to the technicality to just focus on something other than the

actual pain and thinking about mechanics and diverting the discomfort to a degree and focusing on something that I can control, which is yeah. My cadence, my breathing. Usually there's like a head to toe assessment of like, okay, how much energy do I have and how much longer do I think I can hold this and like managing, um, the amount of gas that's in the tank and making sure I have enough to sustain it. And so there's like a head to toe assessment of where this, the discomfort is, is it in my legs? Is it in my breathing? Is it in my

breathing? Is it, where is it located? And then assessing like how much more I can, I can handle and for how long. Yeah. So, okay. So association, disassociation, are you familiar with that framework? Um, somewhat. I've been, sounds like I use it. Yeah. You do it. Yeah. So association is like tuning in to the thing that's happening. You're associating with it so that you can guide it, so that you can make some assessments or decisions. And then what you do, like I love the head to toe, which is exactly where I would coach somebody. And then from that, to not be absorbed in that, then you can set these little micro

goals. Like, listen, I can keep this, get your pace right, get your breathing breathing, right? Get your foot strike, right? Or whatever. And then, or gate. And then you say, okay, I can do this to the trash can. Right. And then right before, but it's really important right before you get to the trash can, wherever that thing is that you say, okay, recalibrate. And so you recalibrate. Yes, I can do this again to that tree. And do you find that anything like that is workable for you and your athletes? Yeah. You know, I think that definitely applies for sure in marathoning. The longer you're out there, the more time you have to talk yourself out of doing something. Um, when the races are quick, it's definitely more just like automatic response and not as much time in the head. So when I have athletes who are on the track,

it's definitely more like just reactionary and not a lot of thinking. And, um, and the longer you're out there, there's plenty of time to think, and that's actually really dangerous. And so I think for sure that that model applies very well to the distance races, um, for sure. And then there's the disassociation, which is like, at some point it's like, listen, let me just listen to the birds. Like you're, you're not, you're not attuning. You're like, let me play a song in my head, whatever. So there's a disassociation from that. And there's, there's an art to this. It's different for everybody. Yeah. And in a marathon at the beginning of the race, I tell myself the disassociation,

I like tune out. I literally try to, I visualize falling asleep. Like you don't pay attention. You're not wasting any energy. You're literally going to go to sleep for 13 miles. And then when 13 miles hits, you're going to wake up. You're going to start to pay attention to yourself, to your competitors. There's a lot more, um, just taking in all of the senses, the smells, the sites, everything becomes way more like high def and fine tune. But the first half, if I'm not careful, my mental energy will be just exhausted by the time I get to halfway. And so to preserve and it really get a great race, it's usually in the second half that I really become fine tunedtuned with everything.

I got to remember that. Yeah. Okay. So we're swapping going, going to sleep first team thought first 13 miles. We're going to, I'm going to take a nap and then you're going to use the, the, um, the toaster oven in the chest. And that was Taylor Finney. Uh, yeah. Who, who shared that with me just to give him the right credit and then um okay so I want to tell you just I know we're kind of coming up on time here but I want to share with you is that I I did one ultra in my life it was a stand-up um paddleboard strike mission you know solo if you will it was a from the across the pacific channel from catalina island to one of the local beaches wow and i heard all the all the right advice from people like yourself

saying they come out with a good pace you know do not come out fast yeah and i was like yeah yeah i got it so i came out and um you know the total distance was 32 miles and 32 plus. And I came out and I started with a gratitude prayer, if you will. So I was like, you know, for the first couple of miles, I'm just going to do gratitude work. And I'm just going to be grateful for the ocean and grateful for my body and grateful for my loved ones and no specific order. And it was probably about an hour and a half in, maybe two hours, somewhere in there. There's a safety boat that trails behind in case of sharks.

And so he was behind and he comes, kind of comes, I hear him from a distance say, hey, you're flying. I was like, oh my God. And he says, um, your cadence is about 5.1, 5.2 miles an hour. And I'm supposed to be like at 4.2. Yeah. I don't know. So I completely bonked at, um, it was like mile 27 completely hallucinations, the whole thing. So you say that go to sleep. Well, I did something similar, which was the gratitude work. It, it totally backfired on me because I came out flying. So, um, I think what you're suggesting is sophisticated and, um, and I just want to

just honor how sophisticated. Yeah. Well, so when I say that, that's, um, that's me racing. So when you're trying to achieve like a, uh, more of like a specific goal, other than just trying to compete against other people, um, that's very different. Racing is very different than, um, than like just going out and setting a specific time goal. Um, so that's, that's my, my advice really for me applies to both, but for sure, when I would use that model of the going to sleep, it's for sure when you're competing, because then all of a sudden, when you have to compete,

you have to have a lot of mental energy to navigate your competitors and like playing chess and manipulation and just where you're going to position. And there's just a lot of, uh, on your feet thinking that is required towards the end to, to get the most out of you. But yeah, you've got, you've got an advanced understanding of science. Okay. So let's do, let's do this. Uh, let's talk about recovery. It's a full-time job. Period. Right. Recovery is like athletes and for everyone in general yeah yes full-time job so let's talk about some of your recovery best practices and the the world is feeling high stress chronic stress as a maladaptive response to acute stress if we're better recovered

and had better psychological skills yeah and better recovery practices to deal with the acute stressors we We wouldn't feel the chronic stress that the world is feeling right now. So teach, teach some best practices to recover well. Honestly, I don't have a lot of, um, fancy advice, which maybe is what's best because it's like very applicable, um, to everyone. Um, throughout my career and my life, I've relied on a few things. One is sleep. Sleep is massive in recovery. And I'm sure if anyone knows that when they don't get a good night's sleep, how their mood is affected, their body just doesn't feel well, the mental clarity. I'd say that that's like one of the things that I focus on maybe the most, especially as a parent is knowing that I need to

get a sufficient amount of sleep and everyone is different too. Like it depends on how much you need. My husband sleeps a lot more than me and I can operate on a little bit less, but I know that that is essential to like, particularly my mood. Um, so sleep is huge. Um, food has been essential. Let's stay on sleep for just a minute. Yeah. Um, so it's not just hours, right? It's like the things that you do prior to, to get the hours. And so what are some of the things like I I, my last meal is, if I'm really on it, is not later than seven, 7.30. I like to start earlier so that my bedtime is around 10 or 11 ish, somewhere in that area. And so I need to get the right window of digestion in place so that my heart rate can come down or can balance in the right way to get into the deep part of sleep. So that's one of my

practices. And I think we also, both of us also appreciate InsideTracker. Yes. Yeah. I would consider them as part of my team. I've done blood testing throughout my entire career. It's been an integral part of my program to make sure that I stay healthy and monitor specifically a few biomarkers that are essential to endurance athletes, um, like ferritin and hemoglobin hematocrit, um, B12 vitamin D, um, as well as some other markers. But as soon as inside tracker came out and I started working with them, unfortunately, I was just upon retirement when I like discovered them and started working with them. Unfortunately, I was just upon retirement when I discovered them and started working with them. They do such an incredible job of customizing everything and doing a super thorough panel. And this past fall, specifically using them with a crazy goal that I had of running six marathons in 42 days, they were instrumental in keeping me healthy

and optimizing my energy and making sure that I could finish this crazy goal and come out of it feeling really good. And now I'm having all my athletes use them, but yeah, it's, it's been huge. I think assessing inside out is the way to go. Um, and to just have the control over knowing exactly what's going on. And it's sometimes it's tricky with nowadays getting in doctor's offices and this is just a simple blood test and you get instant feedback and are able to have an actionable plan based on science and data that is genuinely just you. Um, and so I've loved consulting with their dietitians. I'm big into food. I have my own cookbooks, but to know exactly what I need and not just be like throwing

darts in the dark. I think that this is a meaningful investment for humans that want to understand what they're capable of because getting the nutrition piece dialed in is one of the core substrate. And if you're flat or missing or deficit in any particular area, the solutions are not hard, but knowing the specific solutions to get to, and this is why blood analyses I think are a great solution. And modern tech and science has gotten to a place that it's really applied and InsideTracker has done a nice job there. Yeah, I think people are walking around daily, not feeling optimized, for sure. I know that. And here I was as an elite athlete thinking I was taking care of myself. I still had work to do.

I have high cholesterol. And so being aware of that and working with the dietitians and being able to have an actionable plan to address high cholesterol or whatever biomikers that aren't optimized. But at the end of the day, we all want more energy and to feel better and to serve other people. And I want to give energy to my athletes and to my child and to my family. And there's a lot that I want to delegate and go around. And if I'm not optimized, then I can't give the way I want to give. And so I really appreciate the insight and the science backed information that I get from insight tracker. God, this is why you are a community builder. This, you just shared it. I

want to give energy to my loved ones. I want to give energy. So I need to cultivate that energy. And one of the ways is nutrition. Another way is sleep. Another way is thinking well. It's really clear why you have built the community. Sorry. It's really clear how you've built this community. That is awesome. And so let me go back upstream really quickly. We talked about those three areas of your life, and I asked one question. The other question underneath, can you go back up with me? Mm-hmm. Okay.

High school, middle school, high school. I am. How would you finish that statement? I am trying to figure out who I am. Go to the college years. I am starting to figure out who I want to be. Very cool. Professional career?

I am fulfilling a piece of me. Wow. Go to the post, go to the post. I'm getting to like redefine and explore like all the possibilities that I could be. I don't know. If there's one or two things that you're going to be able to make sure that you pass on to Jack, your son, what would one of those two things be? Yeah, love. Love is love. I know that you're capable of loving, uh, in a, in a way that I think, um, people

are afraid to love and just worried that they can't love. And I realized love is love and, um, genetics don't, um, with children have any boundaries to, um, to love. And so that's been beautiful knowing that and living it. Um, so hopefully he feels that and sees that. And, um, just knowing that we only have one precious life and to try to use it daily as best we can. And I love being very busy because I want to make sure my days are full and full of purpose and serving. And hopefully he sees that with the way that my husband and I live and that we don't take a day for granted. And I feel very appreciative of my health and ability to do

what I do. And hopefully he finds something in his life that gets him excited to wake up every day and a sense of purpose and that he uses his time well. You have lived a high performance life where you have found yourself in the category of being the best in the world. Do you want that life for your son? limitations or lack thereof and boundaries within yourself. And I think a lot of people go through life, not exploring and, and like aligning with their gift. And if people can actually like everyone,

I genuinely believe has a gift to give to their self and to give to others. And I think a lot of people go through life, not finding that gift or seizing that moment. Like maybe there is a moment where they could have grabbed onto the gift, but they didn't realize that that was the moment that could change their life and the trajectory of their life for the better. And so if he has a gift that it's exceptional and it's that elite, rare life, I do think there's something special. And I hope he's excited by that. Yeah.

So what would you teach him that you missed out on? That you can still honor a gift and pursue it, but you can also always, always make time for, regardless of how important that moment is or that gift and honoring it, you can always, always make time for the people that you care about. Um, and should always do that. I think I learned that, um, by not doing honoring that throughout my career. So you're coaching women. This is part two to the question. You're coaching women. You were coached mostly by men. Yes. And you are now a woman coaching women. And so I would love sure say that like I had imposter syndrome probably because I didn't have a lot of women to model after um I definitely

feel like there's this can't be what you can't see so um I'm one of the first and kind of only, um, female coaches in this arena in this sport, um, at this level. And, um, so I think I'm, I'm finding my way and observing, and I've only had male coaches, but I think the level of, um of communication that I can offer women is just is different because I am a female and there is a level of communication that is just different. And their ability to express things that allow them to be more vulnerable and more themselves. I noticed a lot with women who are coached by men that they are very people pleasing and they want to always say the right thing and do the right thing and don't exactly say exactly what they want to say. And so I think from a male coaches out there, it's always maybe always asking more and more questions to get down to really what is wanting to be expressed. You really maybe have to dig more because they're not going to be

as open and willing to share just because there's just not the same level maybe of openness and comfortable like capacity is what I'm noticing. Two things that when you say that I'm grinning inside because one, I built a whole training program for a fortune 50 company on high performance coaching and it's taking best practices from the sport world into helping managers directors leaders coach the best of the best in business and pull out you know their untapped potential and so part of that model is that masterful coaches, and please, I'm not talking about life coaching. I'm talking about just masterful coaches in general. They ask way more questions than even high performance coaches, certainly more than performance coaches, and certainly more than amateur coaches. the question asking to get to the uniqueness of the individual, to fully understand that individual so that you can support and challenge in a healthy way on the same side of the table. So we're in agreement on what we're going to do together, but we have to understand. And it's question, question, question.

What'd you see? What'd you feel? What'd you hear? What'd you experience? What'd you learn? Those types of questions to pull out. And at that level, this is where I'm going to share a story with you and wave me off if I'm way off here. Okay. Because I'm not female and I don't know what it's like to be coached by a male being a female, right? So I don't know how

to get better other than using my imagination here, but best of the best are more similar independent of gender region of the world than, than the others. And so, so there's a more, there's, they are more similar than dissimilar. And the approach still from the coach perspective is to pour in a deep commitment to understand the uniqueness of that person. And so am I close so far? 100% in my, yeah. Okay. All right. So now let's, now let's flashback. It was almost, I guess it must be 15 years ago. I don't know when the inception, I think it was year two, year one or year two of ESPN's W. So ESPN women. And they asked me to speak. And so I was speaking at that event and the question came from the back of the room. It

was the Q&A part. I was on a panel with two other folks. And the question comes from the back of the room and I was the only male on the panel. And it was about coaching the best in the world females. Is there a difference in the way that we coach males and females? And my heart dropped because here I am in this room of extraordinarily talented women, mostly women. And the truth for me is no, I I, they're no, you know, like they're more similar than dissimilar. And I was like, God, do I say that here? I can't say that here because I know what, I know what everyone wanted me to say. And, um, so I, I said what was true to me and I could hear the room rumble and I was like Oh, God, I am in trouble here. And so I still think I heard you, I saw your response and felt your response to it. And

I think we're trying to figure it out. You know, we're all trying to figure it out. There's no manual to go read. But if you hold somebody in high regard, you're going to end up figuring out the uniqueness of that person. And how would you have answered that question? Yeah. And I mean, you can only speak to your experience, right? So if that's what you genuinely see and feel, and I agree with you, I just think the communication skills are just different in how you have to maybe extract some things at times. But, you know, my head coach that I work with who coached me, who's male, he and I both say like, you know, people want to say, oh, it's like coaching them is so, so different or the training is so, so different. I can tell you,

we give them the same workouts, men and women, the same program, the women can. And so like people think, oh, well, you have to like change things for the women. No, they get the same program, the women can. And so like people think, oh, well, you have to like change things for the women. No, they get the same program. Women and men are doing the same exact program. They're just as capable. They can do, you know, given the paces that are appropriate to their training, they're given the same program. The women don't need less, don't need more. They are doing exactly the same thing. And we don't, there's not like a lot of like differentiation. There's not a lot of different treatments. The only aspect that I'm noticing is just the ability to communicate at times with me and how they communicate with me

is different than the male coach. And I think they just like having the dynamic of both the male and female for the more sensitive things that are more life applicable and things that they want to discuss within their life. It's a little bit more emotional. It's not as like cutthroat XYZ of this program. They definitely come to me with just more personal information that they feel comfortable with. And so I think having the outlet of the dynamic of both is actually the perfect blend because I think they respect both of us to do a lot of things, but it's almost like having a mom and a dad.

You just have certain things that I feel like they feel more comfortable telling me. And I think that offers them the space to feel really heard and feel just like we figured them out. And there are certain things that mom and dad have different things, skill sets to offer. And I think that's where the dynamic of having me around in this, this arena and this setting with, with coaching is, is valuable beyond just my general knowledge.

They just have this comfortable component to me. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. And then how about menstruation in the cycle? Like how do you with, cause you know, let's just reference the female athlete triad and sometimes the compromised menstrual cycle for some athletes that, you know, are, are training in extreme environments or training in extreme ways. So how do you, how do you manage that? Yeah. So again, it's like, I'm dating myself back in the day when I started as an elite athlete, it was like a badge of honor to lose your cycle. And that meant you were training really hard. And like, it was like, yeah, like you're doing a great job. You're pushing yourself to your limits. I can, you know, from my personal experience, say I never got to that point and I

thought, well, maybe I'm not training hard enough. Like I never experienced that. Um, and so for a while I was like, man, I'm just clearly not, not doing it right. But then I learned a lot more, I did a lot more homework and realized like the long-term side effects and, um, it just leads to injury and it's just not good in general. And especially as a female who wants to be reproductive, certainly not good to have that. Um, so all my athletes know that that is not the goal, um, that always should be getting their cycle. Um, and if they do, they let me know if they do lose their cycle, they do let me know. And we revisit, um, what they're eating and maybe potential stressors outside of, uh, running and seeing if it's life-related stress or if it's like the actual stress of the running

program, or generally in my experience, it's been a lack of, um, just dynamic in their diet of not enough like fats. And these women get very lean and they, they don't like try to manipulate their physique too much, except for right in the peaking season. There's definitely, you know, they're, they're very adamant about like, just not having a lot of, in general, just not a lot of sugar in their diet. You know, it's an inflammatory response to that. So they just are very clean eating, but nothing is off limits. Like they're still having chocolate. They're still, um, you know, doing things that make them happy and eating foods that make them happy. But, um,

so we address it. They all know that that is not the objective to, um, not have a cycle. And they know that for their long-term health and even for that season, that if they go down that road of losing their cycle, that it will likely the repercussion will be injury. And then worst case scenario issues with reproduction, if they want to have children down the road. So it is not, it's, it's like they're, they're afraid of, of that happening. Whereas back in the day, when I started, it was like a badge of honor to lose your cycle, which is just crazy. So, yeah. Okay. And then, um, super refreshing that people are listening to normal functions of the body and saying, Hey, let's take, let's make sure that we're honoring this. And then, so if, if a athlete is in that phase pre or during the cycle, how does training change at all

for them? I feel like I don't know enough. In general, our athletes do the training and there is not one peep about their cycle unless it's like an extremely, unless it's not happening. Yeah. Yeah. Unless it's not happening. So I, I've never heard them come to practice and say, um, I can't do this workout today. Um,

it's very, very rare that they'll even say like, ah, I just don't feel good today. And I'll know what that means. That's very rare. So, um, I don't know if they're, I just think that they just look at this as like, well, like I'm gonna to, I'm going to just make the best of today. And I think they just know that like it could happen on race day. So you have to learn how to manage this aspect of being a woman. But we've never adjusted training unless an athlete's like, you know, really not feeling well, but I can't even really think of a time that we have. And it's not that they wouldn't be allowed to, it's just that we haven't had that be the case with any of the women that we coach. So, okay. And then just for

context, I want to go back to the female athlete triad. Well, let me just talk about the three elements of it. But then I'm curious about, is this something that you are alarmed by at the elite level? Or is it something, maybe the percentage of folks that you're seeing that struggled here, maybe earlier in their career, or is it still something that you've got your ear to the ground on? But the three main symptoms are there's a disordered eating component to it. There's amenorrhea, and then there's some osteoporosis, which that cluster of symptoms is considered the female athlete triad. And so the specificity of the question is, are you seeing it at the elite level in alarming ways or is it rare? And or are you

seeing it in sub-el, in concerning ways? Um, at the elite level, I'm not, I'm not aware other than like, I take intense stock of the athletes that I work with. I have not come across or know of any women at the elite level. I'm not saying that that doesn't occur, but I have not known. I mean, I've seen women who've come out with saying that they've had eating disorders for sure. I don't know any females with osteoporosis. Athletic amenorrhea, I'm sure is quite prevalent. And, you know, why I decided my motivation to write cookbooks is to help young women specifically like high school college, um, with disorder eating. I didn't realize that that was a problem until I entered college. And I actually had a roommate who had an eating disorder and, um, it was kind of traumatizing

to be honest. I didn't think of food in that capacity ever. And to watch her be self-destructive and not be able to compete and really unhealthy. And it scared me. But it also motivated me to be set a good example. And then at some point, actually try to change the culture with cookbooks and have young women be able to use it as a resource in their lives. And trust me, when I say that you should eat butter, you should eat fat. There are certain things that are instrumental to your health and to not do fad dieting that that just doesn't work. And there's a reason why I don't have calorie counts and grams of this and that in my cookbook is because I want people to be obsessed with, you know, the splits on their watch and other things other than

the calorie counts and just not a healthy mentality. So I do believe that it's probably worse, honestly, in the high school level where there's a lot of insecurities and misinformation. Unfortunately, I think that's probably the worst area that high school and college level, which is not actually at the elite level, because if you make it to the elite level, you must have done to a degree something right, right to get there. If you're sabotaging yourself with other ways of trying to like cheat to get to that level, like you won't sustain it and you won't make it.

Very cool. I mean, what, what, what so much, you're just such a wealth of knowledge and you've lived in the arena. You've had the spotlight on you. You understand what it's like to be in those spaces. And then now you're building communities of health and vibrance and high performance, um, you know, for, for folks that are lucky to work with you. So I want to say, thank you. Um, I also am hopeful that maybe you can pass on a couple of books or some folks, the name of your cookbook, please. My, uh, my cookbooks are run fast, eat slow, run fast, cook fast, eat slow. And then recently, um, the new one is Rise and Run that came out this fall. All right. Very cool. Yeah.

Okay. So last question. Okay. Is, okay. Actually, two. Give me two. One is, if you were to sit with a master, who would that be? Where would it be?

And if you only had one question, what would you want to ask? Oh, gosh. You come up with some hard questions. Really introspective. A true master. And what I would imagine would be someone who has done something so much and developed a skill set and put in so much time that what they do, it's almost maybe that they don't even like think about the actual act of what they do. I mean, what would you define as master? Would it be that? I love what you just said. So you don't even conscientiously know

that you're a master because it's so innately and it's so part of who you are right it's so eloquent and so creative yeah so you've got it but who is that person for you i don't know if i have um a person in my life or just someone i admire they could even they could even be not with us anymore. Yeah. Gosh, well, I'll just use someone who's relevant to today and that people probably are aware of and know and is very of the times. You know, Tom Brady just retired the other day. And, um, I think what he's a master of, um, that I really admire is that he, um, his mastery was not actually on the field. It was in front of a computer screen, studying, um, the sport and learning the sport and staying his mind was more powerful than his body, um, in a sense. And it kept him in the sport a lot longer, was more powerful than his body um in a sense and it kept him in

the sport a lot longer um than most would have predicted and he's set a whole new standard for the level of playing and the age at which uh retirement is now the norm and him pushing that boundary and that i he's a true master of the mind in terms of football. And, um, I've had fun just following his career and watching how he's mastered, um, the brain and learning constantly. And if you had one question with him, what would it be? Did he have fun all the way until the end? Like, did he, did he genuinely have fun all the way? Um, and yeah. And did he ever think he would knowing where he came from? Um,

did he ever think that he'd be in this position and, um, dream up this dream of how long he'd be playing? And did he, yeah. Did he have fun all the way to the end? Awesome question. Yeah. Okay. So how about for you? Did you have fun all the way to the end? Um, no, I didn't, I did it small elements of it, but, um, yeah, no, I think, um, the dynamic of, of running being my job, I think to me just started to not be fun. And some people may think that's kind of crazy, like, oh, you got paid to run. That's a pretty good job. And it was, but I enjoy the dynamic and the relationship I have with running now that it's not my job. And it's making it more fun now that it's not my job.

And then here's the second question that I was going to ask is where, at what point in your career did you introduce sports psychology in a, in a formalized way? In high school, I developed, I think some anxiousness and didn't know how to manage it. And it would kind of come out in certain races and circumstances. And I never addressed it in high school. And when I got to college, I had one particular race that was kind of snapped me and was like, I need to, I need to get some help. I can't do this on my own. And I need to reframe and retrain my brain to think of racing and manage the stress and, um, allow myself to get the most of myself.

And I'm not going to be able to do that alone. And my coach didn't seem to have the words or the, the ability to help me. And I sought out on my own a sports psychologist. Um, cause I just felt like I, I needed that to be able to find out if I could get better and be better than what I was showing and manage the weight and the expectations that I was carrying. And so I saw of all places, I went to Carolina and of all places, I sought out a sports psychologist at Duke university. So, um, um, and so, I can hear my friends over Carolina going, why didn't you take that out? I know. So, um, you went to UNC, I went to UNC. And, um, so I, I saw him, um, for a little bit and then I just felt like I was in a good place. And I did not use a sports psychologist after that, but I wish I had.

And now I actually have my athletes consult with sports psychologists. And as much as I want them to rely solely on me, I know that there's a skill set and an ability for sports psychologists. And it's like, to me, it's now should become staple with every single team and every athlete. But again, I was a little bit more old school and you got to tough it out and do it on your own. And so I realized that that was a mistake throughout my career and I think could have helped me even get more out of myself,

even though, but I do realize just that one instance totally changed the rest of my collegiate career because of it. So yeah, I'm very, very grateful for, I believe his name is Greg Dale. Oh, Greg. Do you know him? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah. So very, very happy that I saw Greg, even though he was a dookie.

Awesome. Nice work. Thank you for the spirit of honesty and authenticity and not in the knowledge base, both from a learner perspective, um, as well as from, you know, the live perspective and the wisdom that you brought into this conversation. So I just want to say thank you. Oh no, thank you. What a joy. Yeah. Thank you.

I hope our paths get the cross. Yeah. That would be lovely. I would love that. Do you, do you travel much or are you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like a joke, 260 days a year for the last 10, 15 years. And then the pandemic

hit. Yeah, it was not. So how did you psychologically handle the pandemic? Was that good for you? Some people were like, that was great. It was like, listen, I just want to be super sensitive how I say this because there's been a lot of heartache, my family and otherwise. But for me and my immediate family, like being home with my son, who was growing up, it was like, what a beautiful reset. And I was so not, I was getting nauseous packing my bag. I was not unpacking my bag basically when I come home. And so I was becoming nauseous, literally nauseous on my way to the airport. And then, so it was like fully welcomed and what a great reset. And while I love being in person with people, this time has been incredibly meaningful.

Right. I agree. It was one of the best years of my life. And, you know, personally, just Jack was born and I got to spend the first year with him full on being a mom, no distractions. It was wonderful. Like, and again, I feel bad saying that because there's a lot of hardship for a lot of people, but it's maybe one of the best years I've had. So, no, I think it's really important. You're normalizing a couple of things that, um, independent of having awareness, but independent of other people's experiences, your, Your experience is uniquely yours, whether it's the high school sports psychologist that you went to or in college and or the last year of your life.

So I think it's one of the gifts that you've given our community is the authenticity to say it like you see it. And it's great. And so, listen, honestly, again, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, yes, hope our paths cross. Let's make it happen at some point.

Okay, sounds good. Thank you. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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