Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Heart of a Cowboy | Ty Murray

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Ty Murray, one of the most accomplished Roughstock athletes of all time. Having earned a record-setting seven All-Around World Championships, Ty has rightfully earned his nickname in the industry as “King of the Cowboys”.Throughout his illustrious career, Ty competed in three of the rodeo’s most risky and dangerous events – bareback, saddle bronc, and bull riding – dominating all three “rough-stock” disciplines with the singular heart of a champion.At the age of 23, Ty became the youngest millionaire in rodeo history, and eight years later was inducted into the ProRodeo Hall of Fame. Ty has also been a trailblazer for the sport behind the scenes – in 1992 he became a founding member of the Professional Bull Riders (PBR), which sought mainstream attention for “America’s original extreme sport.” Ty is epic and so is this conversation – I can’t wait for you to hear his story and learn from a human who has dedicated his life towards exploring the upper reaches of his potential. He has a very clear approach to success, a deep love for what he does and the people in his life, and a strong purpose. After this conversation, I hope you’ll be able to tap into your inner cowboy as well._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm like, absolutely. I said, but the difference is like, if you're going to use car racing, as an example, you're still the one with your foot on the throttle. When you're talking about bull riding, when you nod your head and that gate opens, the bull has the throttle and you've got to be able to decide when and if he pushes the throttle to the max, are you going to go there? All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist. Now, the whole idea behind this podcast and these conversations is to pull back the curtain to better understand how some of the most extraordinary people on the planet organize their inner life.

How did they use their mind to pursue their potential? How did they work inside and build communities toward a shared aim? Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success and building those relationships it takes more than effort it takes a real caring about your people it takes the right tools the right information at the right time and that's where linkedin sales navigator can come in it's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively.

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head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Ty Murray. He's one of the most accomplished rough stock athletes of all time. Having earned a record setting seven all around world championships, Ty has rightfully earned his nickname in the industry as the king of the Cowboys. Throughout his career, Ty competed in three of rodeo's most risky and dangerous events, bareback, saddle bronc, and bull riding. He dominated all three rough stock disciplines with the singular heart of a champion. And at the age of 23, he became the youngest millionaire in rodeo history. And eight years later was inducted into the pro rodeo Hall of Fame. So Ty's been a trailblazer, comes through in this conversation for obvious reasons.

And he's also worked behind the scenes of the sport. In 1992, he became a founding member of the Professional Bull Riders, which sought mainstream attention for America's original extreme sport. Ty is epic for a lot of reasons. And I can't wait for you to hear his story and learn from a human who has dedicated his life toward exploring the upper reaches of his potential. Ty is epic for so many reasons. And I just can't wait for you to experience him

in this conversation. And to be able to learn from a human who has a body of work that is very clear about excellence and how he's organized his life fundamentally committed towards exploring the upper reaches of his potential. So he's got a very clear framework to become great at anything. And so I'm excited. You're going to love that part of it. But I want you to also feel the love that he comes from and really work to understand how is it that he's choosing the words that he's choosing because he's very precise and very particular. This conversation is great. And this idea of a cowboy community and what it really means, he digs into that. It's really cool. It's not what I expected. Now with

that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend, Ty Murray. Ty, how are you? Man, I'm doing good. Listen, I just hear it in your voice like that, and I believe you. So what is good? When you say, I'm doing good, what does that mean to you? Well, I have two wonderful kids and a wife of my dreams. I live on the ranch of my dreams. And I think this idea about dreaming, as I was doing my research, and I've watched you from a distance for a long time,

it's hard not to pay attention to, I don't know, the Michael Jordan of writing. And so I think this idea of dreaming is going to be materially important, but I want to pause that for a moment. And I'd love to start with an insight that you had, which is, I read this that you said, I don't care about going down in history as a great bull rider or bronc rider. I hope people will remember me as a great cowboy. So with that being said, what is a great cowboy? How do you think about it being a great cowboy? Being a great cowboy entails a lot of things. So you have rodeo cowboys, you have ranch cowboys, you have horsemen, you know, like being a great cowboy? Being a great cowboy entails a lot of things. So you have rodeo cowboys, you have ranch cowboys, you have horsemen, you know, like being a steward of the land,

knowing how to manage your ranch, knowing how to manage your grass. And especially when you're dealing with mother nature, that's, you know, that's can be very tricky. I just think there's a lot of elements to, it like saying being a great businessman. You know, that's that's a word that people use a lot. Oh, he's a great businessman. Well, that entails a lot. And there's a lot of different there's a lot of different elements to it. Like, is he great at balancing the books or is he great at being a leader?

Is he great? You know, if he's a CEO of a company, can he get everybody to rally behind him and have the same amount of passion that he does? That's a whole other element beyond knowing how to conduct a meeting or a convention or a seminar. Be able to understand how to make it more profitable, how to make your overhead less. You know, I mean, there's just a million areas that, that, that can involve. And I feel it's the same with being a cowboy. There's, there's a ton of different areas and nobody is going to be excellent at every area. You are really even keel, like your cadence is even keel, your narrative, the kind of the tone and energy, there's just a consistency. And you used that word earlier. So were you like this as a kid?

Or is this a skill that you had to develop to be a good business person, to be a good, you know, cowboy, good partner in life? Like, or is this natural for you? I don't really know. You know, I know when I do television work, I've been told that, you know, I need to be more animated. I'm too monotone and things like that, but it's like, you know, it's, I kind of am what I am and this feels natural to me. And, and that's a good question. I don't, I don't really know the answer to that. I know that,

I know that my profession of being a professional rough stock riding professional rodeo cowboy, you have to get in control of your emotions and you have to be able to compartmentalize things big time. I want to know how you learned that because I'm seeing it. It's showing up. Nobody, nobody, that's probably too big a word very few if any figure out how to have an ideal state of being without going through some really hard times without testing you know different options of how to be and think and feel and and work with emotions so can you take us way

back i mean you've been public about one of your first injuries, but can you, is it okay to go back and understand some hardships in your life, whether they're physical and or emotional? Well, I think that, I think that just the, the sport that I did, I'll argue that it's the most dangerous sport in the world. And that's something that I'm very, um, that I've always been very aware of I was very aware of it when I was a little boy and I got uh just enveloped by this sport and this idea and wanting to be a great cowboy that could that could ride bucking animals and and make it look easy and effortless. And, uh, the danger, the danger that's in this sport is, is not only why people want to watch it, but it's also why people want to do it. And, you know, that's kind of a, you know, I'm at a different place in my life and

I feel way different about it now, but for the first 32 years of my life, it's all I thought about night and day. It's it's, it was, it was on my mind constantly. And I, and just on its own, it was on my mind constantly. First, first bone that you broke. I broke my leg when I was two years old, falling off a horse. So it started early. I broke my jaw when I was nine, you know, and then in my professional career, I had a, hold on, hold on, you're two years old and you fell off a horse. So somebody was with you, I would imagine. Well, it was actually, I was on a horse with both of my sisters.

All three of us were on the horse and he was a, he was a really good horse, but I was too young to be up there, you know. And my sisters kind of took off and off the back I went and broke my leg. And tell me about your parents. Like, are you going to, are you? Yeah, let's put Ty up there, you know, with like two sisters. Put them on the back, you know. Right, right. That sounds reasonable.

Right, that's something. Yeah. And so, and so I'm the other way, like with my kids, I'm probably really overprotective, but I've seen, you know, in my lifetime of 52 years, I've seen some, I've seen some bad, bad stuff happen in, and it can happen so fast whenever you're talking about a 1200 pound animal. So, um, you know, I, I'm, I'm the opposite of that. And, you know, my parents, they were, they were just raised in cowboy families and, and, you know, I mean, it was back when a lot of things were different, you know, I think in raising kids, it seems to me it was, you know, did you say 50 you're 50? I'm 52. Yeah.

Okay. So I'll tell you a funny story. This does not compare to the danger you had. But so I had, I grew up early, early days, like formative years on a farm. And we had a horse that, and that horse, don't walk behind a horse. Sure enough, it got my sister, you i mean launched her it was like holy like the power of that thing so yeah from from that point on i was like oh i understand now you know so like and so things go really quickly she's fine she survived it you know no problem yeah um but things

go bad quickly and another kind of informative this this is again, my sister, my little sister, we were, we were at the, uh, our local pond and all of a sudden a bull kind of squared up on her and she was the runt. She was the little one, you know, she was, she was only like six years old or something. And that bull squared up on her. And for whatever reason was like, I'm getting a little one. I don't know what happened. And then one of my, one of my crazy uncles, he's no longer with us. I mean, he lived a hard life, but so I understand why without any hesitation and we're, we're going fishing. We don't want anything to do with these cows in this, this bull, you know, and he, and he runs and puts himself right in between this charging bull and this little six year old, you know, so, so I i i haven't seen what you've seen but those are not stories i was gonna tell you the story i was gonna tell you yeah wait those that's not what i was

gonna tell you i was gonna say it was different when you said that is that my parents said hey we're gonna i was like how old was i i was like nine probably my age and they said hey we're gonna go travel cross-country and so they bought a van like i call it a danger van you know like those those dark vans that don't have any windows you know that's too long and uh and i go oh good what where do my sister and i sit and they're like we got you some lawn chairs so they put us in lawn chairs you know drove across country for a couple weeks in lawn chairs like like the nylon ones, you know, with the metal thing. Like it was different then it was different. Okay. So, so all that fun aside, your jaw at nine, what, what happened? I broke my jaw at nine, riding a bull. I started at nine. Yeah. And that's, and that's, I can't even imagine it. My son is 10 and my, I only had my son.

I told my son since he was a little bitty guy, I said, I only want you to make me two promises in life. I said, only two. I'm only going to ask for two things that I want you to promise me and stick to it. And that was to never ride bulls and to never do drugs. And those are two such scary things that, you know, you don't, you, you, as a parent, you can feel so helpless, even when you're talking about just riding your, your, you know, the horses that I have that are gentle ranch horses that have a

good understanding, you're still talking about a really helpless feeling when you're a parent and your kid is on a horse. And if something does go south, which as you, you know, just as you know, it can, that's a really helpless feeling. And so I, you know, I think sometimes people are like, why, you know, you're so protective of your kids. And, and, you know, I guess everybody's experience, uh, kind of shapes everybody a little bit differently, but I, I just feel like they're little kids and they, when they can be in danger and not know it. And so it's, it's my job to, to mitigate that and, and make sure that they're not in a, that they're not in a position that something could go South and they're the one that's going to pay for it. I try to make it where I'm always in a position that if something goes South,

I'm there to, to help them not get wiped out. Ty, how do you think about yourself? And the reason I'm, this is a big, big question, so I'm going feeling you right now, we'll go back to feel. When I'm feeling you, there's an even keel. There's even this deep awareness about how things work. And I feel that you're working from principles that are almost unwavering. And I think that the combination of this is likely why you are so good and a tolerance to be able to work in highly dangerous environments. But how do you capture yourself? Do you feel like, or do you feel like a kid still where it's like, I'm kind of scared of things, you know, so I just do my best.

No, I don't, I don't, I don't really feel scared of things. I feel experienced. And, and it feels like experience, uh, is what comes from sometimes bad decisions or, you know, living life or, you know, there's a lot of things that experience comes from, but I feel like I'm experienced. And just when it comes to my kids and my wife, I feel like it's my job to take care of them. You know, that being said, you know, I'm, you know, I've never really analyzed all of this stuff, but I would have to think that, you know, start, you know, I started, I wanted to be a bull rider at two years old. And I started riding calves at two. My dad would run along beside me and hold my belt so that when I fell off, I wouldn't hit the ground.

He would just set me down. And I was serious about it too. A lot of people find that hard to believe, but I was raised as a cowboy around cowboys for, this is generations. And it was what I was just, it was just everything to me, you know, like that was all I wanted to do day every day. And, and I think, I think when you grow up in that environment of doing these dangerous tasks, doing these dangerous events, um, you know, I think that, I think that it, it probably most definitely had, you know, a part in shaping what I'm like, you know, from analyzing my personality or whatever. I would think that, you know, like even in business, like I'm no genius and I'm no educated businessman, but everything that I've always used in business was what I learned from writing. If you believe in something and you have a passion

for it and you try hard enough and you try your guts out at every moment of it because you're passionate about it and you believe in it, that's really the only tools that I had in my toolbox as far as business goes. But I feel like it's something that's really helped me. Oh, I think there's a couple more in here. I think you know how to operate well in high-risk environments. And you've got to lay some bets in business. It's really hard to grow at the clip that most people are interested in without laying some bets. So I think you know how to do risk really well. I do want to understand that. And before we do risk, have you, okay, there's two types of trauma, trauma with a big T and trauma with a little T. So I don't know if well how did you break your jaw was it it was a bull you said right yeah okay so i don't know stepped right here my god yeah i mean i know

you know and i i i you know i i know it it seemed just normal and i you know, I begged, I begged to, to do it when I was nine years old, I begged, I begged my parents and my parents, you know, they had, they had a belief in my ability and, you know, I practice this stuff every day and they had a belief in my ability, but, uh, you know, I was, I was too, I was, I was too little and I was in too big of a situation. And, and, and, uh, when I, when I, when I broke my jaw, they took me to the doctor and the doctor came in and, you know, he x-rayed it and he knew it was broke. And he was trying to explain to a nine-year-old, you know, how they were going to wire my mouth shut and all this stuff.

So he's trying to break it down for a nine-year-old. he says ty says what's going to happen is we're going to put you to sleep and he started to say you know and then we're going to wire your mouth shut but but when he said put you to sleep growing up as a cowboy kid putting an animal to sleep oh you know yeah right and and uh my mom said i stood up off the exam table and I said, it ain't that bad. And so that was kind of a thing that they laugh about that I thought they were going to put me down. Okay. So before we go to the trauma, well, no, let's stay here.

Have you had significant trauma, big T trauma in your life, you know, from the experiences you've had, or would you call this little T trauma? And I want to understand that because your ability to stay in it when it's hard is noted. And so was this a big trauma and had, did you have big traumas in your life? Well, you know, I don't know that. I don't know that i really know for sure what you would call you know what you would label big trauma or little trauma um i think that was you know looking back you know it just felt normal you when you're a kid you only know what you know you know and so so that might not even be trauma like trauma is when you get changed when you're changed in a in a way where you are constantly on the lookout to not become here's the weird thing trying you know trying to remember it trying to think back on it here's the

weird thing is instead of it making me hesitant or like i don't want to do that or i got to be very careful. It almost had like an opposite effect on me of you've got to commit and you've got to, you've got to go for it. And, and when it looks the worst is when you got to go for it the hardest. And, and I don't know for sure. I think the reason that it maybe, maybe that it had that effect on me is because my dad, you know, I grew up as a little boy watching my dad break colts for a living that's what he you know that's what he did is he started young horses and and you know there were times that it would get you know it could get rough um and my dad would always just go to it. And, and so, you know, that's all I remember seeing as a little, as a little boy, I remember seeing my dad wouldn't get safe. He wouldn't get, um,

hesitant or back off. He would just go to it and, and, and kind of meet the, meet the danger or the, you know, whatever you want to call it head on. And so, um, you know, I think that, that I somehow took that on and, and, and I think that that injury was, you know, uh, you know, I don't, I'm not real, you know, used to using like the word trauma, but I think that, I think that that definitely had some effect on me because I remember, you know, having a broken jaw and I had my mouth wired shut. And when I came back from that as a kid, I started riding again when my jaw was still wired shut. And I put on a football helmet and, you know, that's just the way, that's just the way it was. You know, here's the thing.

If you're going to be a cowboy, you've got to be tough. That's just, that's not a, that's a prerequisite. It's just, it's just the way it is. So many things that cowboys do, it requires an amount of toughness. Finding Mastery is brought to you by momentous when it comes to high performance whether you're leading a team raising a family pushing physical limits or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday what you put in your body matters and that's why i trust momentous from From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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for 20% off. Let's open that up. Physical toughness or are you talking about mental, emotional toughness? Well, both. Okay. I'm way more interested in about mental, emotional toughness? Well, both. Okay. I'm way more, I'm way more interested in the mental, emotional, you know, like, you know, physical is like, I don't, I don't really understand that because once you get lactic acid or you get a cut, like it becomes, that too becomes lactic acids when your muscles

are burning because they've been used in such a deep level. But it's emotional, it's mental. So how do you do it when it's really hard and you're sensing all the danger or you're sensing the, the deep pain or the potential for pain or the fatigue or whatever it might be? How, how do you, what do you say to yourself? Um know i think i think the way you're raised as a cowboy is is you don't weaken you just you know if if you're gonna if you if you get into a can of worms you you stay hooked and you stay committed and that's just the way that's kind of the cowboy creed and what does that mean if you're in a can of worms, you stay hooked. Like if you open a can of worms, I'm just trying to think of a word for like, when, when, when something gets, if you're going and if you got to go out here and you got to,

you got to catch a bull that's in the brush and you go out there on your horse and you got to, this bull won't come out of the brush and you've got to get him caught and you've got to get him taken somewhere else. And you got to rope this bull. it can be a can of worms like that can get you know you're talking about an animal that weighs 1800 pounds on the end of a nylon rope and you're on a 1200 pound horse and you do the math you know it can get um you know there's there's just there's a lot of things about being a cowboy that can get dangerous, that can get rough, that can, that can put you in a place that you're, that you're, that you may, you know, you're probably going to experience some pain. But that's something that, that's something that I feel like I've grown up with my whole life, you know know it's just because i don't know it bring me into bring me into that moment where you're on your horse there's a scared pissed off there's some sort of animated bull

that you've got to rally like what do you what are you saying are you did you come from anger like get the fuck over here or okay okay come on now we're gonna work together like how do you do this so for me i'm trying to have better. I'm trying to work smarter instead of harder. And so there are cowboys that are just rough, that they're just rough. They're just tough and rough. And they're just going to, they're just going to bail into it head first. And, and, and, you know, I try not to work that way. I try to work smarter instead of harder. That's why having better skills and being a better horseman are all things that lend itself to it being easier on everyone. handle horses and cattle quietly and where you're not stressing them and you're not you're not scaring them and when you do that it becomes safer and quieter and better for everyone involved and so uh i think that i think that the great cowboys that you look at are you know you would call them

stockman you would call them a horseman you would call them a horseman, you would call them somebody that can, you know, like, like an example is a rough cowboy, if they got to put a cow through a gate, you're in a you're in 1000 acre pasture, and you've got to get a cow and you've got to get her to go through that gate over there. A rough guy will just try to shove her through that gate. And what you'll see is that cow will want to go anywhere in that pasture but to that gate because they're putting pressure on at the exact wrong time. And so the way I would work is I take that cow and if we're in a thousand acre pasture right here, picture a big square that's a thousand acres, and I'm on this side of it i draw a line like this because the gate's over there so in my mind there's a line right here anytime that cow is breathing on this side of the line i'm not doing anything it's all free for her and that's it you know that's a way that you're working smarter so instead of trying to shove her through that gate

and be right on her and think you're going to shove her, well, you're making the thing you want hard. That's a really cool framework. And if you can, like when you're dealing with animals, whether it be a horse or a cow, they're very closely the same thing. They're both herbivores that live in herds. They feel better in a herd. They feel better with a leader. And so when you can learn to set all the situations up to where what you want is easy. And maybe what they think they could do is more difficult, not hard, but a little more difficult. So if that cow starts to come to this side of the line, that's when I would start riding my horse and kind of creating, you know, creating some, Hey, I'm over here. This isn't the way you want to come in. And as soon as she would think about

going the other way, I would just turn to butter and then just, just let that happen. And so, you know, those are two really different, um, types of people and ideologies and, and, you know, those are two really different types of people and ideologies. And but one one works a lot better and it's a lot safer and it's a lot quieter and it's a lot easier on everyone where the rough way it generally always just gets rough. And it just can turn a day that should have took you five minutes into something that takes you all day. And it's just rough and hard. And that's not, that doesn't interest me. I, I feel like that's just, you know, I fit, you know, going back to the first thing you said was that, you know, that I, that I want to be a great cowboy. That doesn't mean just being,

that doesn't mean just being rough and stupid. You know, that means being, being smarter and having more knowledge and having a better understanding and doing things that if you're going to work with animals you better you better get some knowledge and and learn how to understand them and the way their mind works and the way uh you can have cause and effect and and those are things that just make all of our lives easier me the horse and the cow so you said earlier like i'm not sure other than like having a having a vision about you know what you want to do and working really hard working your guts out at

it but then i hear words like feel and loving it and And there's a quietness to this art. There's a deep skill to be quiet and to have the hard thing the difficult thing not the hard thing the difficult thing and i also hear patience i hear relationship like i talked about and trust a trust that i think that you would say this is going to work out i think you trust your future but i don't yeah you trust your future well are you, what do you mean by that? Do I trust my future? Do you trust that no matter how this conversation or this wrangling of a bull goes, that you're going to figure out on the other side of it, how to adjust? No, I have, I have trust, but I also have a lot of experience and I've seen what works and I've seen what makes it hard. So I just do what works. There's a novel idea.

Yeah. So if we were to title this, you know, something about getting better, right? Like, I think you understand how to get better at something. And what would you say is like, listen, I'm going to oversimplify this, but if you really want to get good at something, here's a few things that I think, I don't know how I would do without it. It's these couple things. You're talking about something that somebody wants to get better at or, or anything, just like an element in life or whether it's a sport or being a dad or designing a better business or a husband or whatever. For me, you know, it's a sport or being a dad or designing a better business or a husband or whatever for me you know it's something that I've always said that you know you you look at any walk of life you're in so for me it was rodeo or being a cowboy you see the people that are the best at it and and they have all different ways of going about it, you know, to a degree.

And so if you were, if I, you know, when I, when I was young, looking at champions that I could only find one thing that I felt like I knew that all of them had, and it starts with love. Like if you don't love what it is, you are wasting your time. I feel if I feel like everything has to, it has to start with that. It has to start with love. You have to, you have to love it. And rather that be my marriage, rather that be being a dad or rather that be being a professional rodeo cowboy if you don't love it if you're doing it because your your girlfriend thinks it's cool or your dad wished he would have or your it's what your buddies are doing it or doing that then that those aren't that's not good you're not gonna

you're not gonna achieve excellence if you don't have that starting element. There's, there's a lot of other things that have to line up as well, but that's the only one that I feel like whenever you see somebody that can become great at something, I think that's, that's the one, that's the number one element that, that, that, that has to be there. And then, and then it's kind of a little bit different from there. You see some people that are kind of more naturals. You see some people that practice their practice like crazy. You see guys that train hard. You see other guys that just kind of mail it in, you know? So there's a lot of different, uh, elements after that, but I feel like that's where it has to start. And then, and then after love, I think there has to be a passion.

So, and I think passion and love are two different things. And I'm not talking, you know, I'm talking about a passion for something I'm talking about where you think about it all the time without trying to, like, it's just, you just, you love it that much that, that you develop a passion for it. So you're thinking about it all the time. It's what's on your mind all the time. And that's the only way that I feel like you can really get better or become great at something is if you have that, that passion. I think that another element is there has to be some ability. You know, I don't think you can. And when I say ability, I mean, you have to have some kind of inherent trait that lends itself to whatever endeavor you're talking about. So if I'm. If I'm six foot five and way to 80, I'm not going to have it's like being a gymnast. I'm not going to be a gymnast and I'm not going to be a bull rider. It's just because you got, you know, so, so for me, luckily I feel like I was born with the exact right body for what I did. Um, you know, five foot 10,

170 pounds. I'm very, um, I don't know what you would call it. Very wiry, very, um, flexible, very, uh, strong pound for pound, very, um, fast twitch muscle fibers, you know, just kind of, I feel like I was just, I was just born with a body that really lends itself to, to what I wanted to do. Um, you know, and then I feel like there's gotta be serious dedication. If, if you're wanting to achieve great greatness in something or, or, you know, and I'm not even going to say greatness for me, for me, it was, I wanted to win seven world all around championships. That was like my life goal since I was a little kid,

because the very best guy, my hero was a guy named Larry Mahan and he won six. So I made him my benchmark and I wanted to go in seven. And so, you know, being able to dedicate myself, it, you know, you can't, I just don't, I just don't think you're going to achieve something that big, or if you want to call it greatness, or if you want to be the best brain surgeon in the world, or you want your business to get to $30 million a year, or whatever it is,

without dedication, those things aren't going to happen, I don't think. You know, when I look at the things that I've been lucky enough to happen, I don't think. You know, when I look at the things that I've been lucky enough to do in business, it was more about, I never did it to make money. You know, like, I look back at it, and I'm like, because I wasn't doing it to make money, I was able to make the right decision, instead of the decision that I thought would put money in my pocket the fastest. And so, you know, that's something else that I think is really important. And that's not easy because everybody's got to make money. You know, everybody's got to make a living.

You know, I hate when I hear people say, oh, he just does it for the money. Well, yeah, that's why you go to your job every day too, is for the money. You know, I mean, everybody's got to do something for the money, but so, but like the, the, the endeavors that I've done that I was passionate about it and I believed in it. And, and I was, I was trying to make the, the, the decisions that were, that were right for, for it, not for, not for what I thought was going to get me a paycheck the quickest. I think there's a couple more elements. I feel like they get almost not more important, but they're, they're all still big pieces of the puzzle. And, and so for me, you know, like after dedication, you have to have practice. Practice is different than dedication. So, you know, practice is you've got to work at honing your craft, whatever it may be.

If you're going to be a brain surgeon or if you're in business or if you're whatever, if you've got to practice and you've got to practice and practice and practice till it starts to feel like art. That's, that's when it's easy is when it starts to feel like art. So, so, um, that's how the things that I've been able to achieve a better level of is like in riding buck and horses and bulls it started to feel like art to me I didn't have it wasn't just mechanical it wasn't just where you get in there and you're like okay you know because I always say that that anything you do especially like in sport like there's five basic things there might be three basic things but there are some there's a there's a number of basic things that you have be three basic things, but there are some, there's a, there's

a number of basic things that you have to do. And if you don't do those basic things, it ain't going to work for you, but it goes, it can go so far past that, like just the mechanics and the basics of the things that you got to do. And it can start to become like art. And that's when it gets fun. And that's what, you know, that's when it gets like, that's where it feels awesome is when it starts to feel like that. And then I think that there, I think that there's definitely a spiritual element and I'm not talking about religion. I'm, you know, I'm talking about it's,

I feel like the things that I've done in my life, the things that interest me, and the things that I've gone after, I feel like there's a spiritual element to it, that it's, it feels deeper to me than just, oh, I'm a bull rider, or, oh'm a horseman. Um, it feels deeper than that to me. It feels more important than that to me. It feels like there's a, it feels like I have a, uh, an amount of respect for it that is important to me, um, and honoring it. And, and really the, this kind of the, the, the art and the spiritual part are kind of what are kind of the, the, the end or not the end, but like, as, as you, as you're really into it and you're really starting to do well at it, those two things kind of come together sort of, you know what I mean? And it just feels like a, that's when it feels, that's when it feels amazing. And it's not just some sport that you're doing. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the Finding Mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. When I listen to you, this is going to sound maybe harsh of what I'm about to say about others, is that you know how when you say, you know this well, when you see a clown and they've got all this makeup on and they've got like a frown or a smile or whatever but it's like there's this makeup so they're presenting a certain way but it's not maybe what's happening underneath and so oftentimes people say words about performing at a very high level and And to me, it sounds like a clown. I listened to you and it's independent. It's, it's remarkable. It's independent

to the discipline of the science and the art, whether it's basketball or surgery or whatever it might be bull riding that there's a, there's such a deep commonality of people that really understand it. And it's not just words. It's like, there's scar tissue to back it up. There's stories to back it up, but there's the way that the words are chosen that in the, the, just the tenderness of how you describe it that i go oh yeah there it is there it is yeah i've always said this this sport i feel like i feel like when when you

see somebody that's great at a sport um i feel like it's more mental than it is physical because you, when you get to the highest level of anything, everybody's good. It's got, it's gotta be something deeper than that. I feel like, I feel like so many things when you're talking about sport, when you see the guys that are the very best, I'm talking about the guys that you're like, that's maybe the greatest that there's ever been. It's different.

He's not just a great athlete that was born with it. You know, like one of the things of ability, like, you know, some of them, that's it. They got ability and they're not that dedicated. They, you know, they're not that passionate about it. They probably don't really love it that much. We call them coach killers. Well, yeah. Yeah. And, and so the, the mental side,

I know that in my sport, I feel like that. I feel like that you've got to, you've got to find, you've got to figure out a way to, to, if you have to, if you haven't gained confidence through your practice and your training and, and the things that you're, you know, the things that can give you confidence, you've got to find confidence somewhere because that is the one element that you've got to have every time is you've got to have the confidence. And so for me, you know, talking about those

things that we were talking about, the that we were talking about the love and the passion and the dedication and the practice those are the things that helped give me confidence but you also have to have a like like more than confidence you almost have to have like a an ability to compartmentalize to where what you're doing is really dangerous. The difference in riding bulls and playing basketball or baseball or a lot of, a lot of the sports is you still have the pressures of winning and losing or championships or things like that. The pressure of the balls in your hand and there's two seconds on the clock and you're down by three and you know, you're at the three point line. Those are, those are big pressures.

Don't absolutely. But in bull riding, you have the pressure of living and dying every time. So that, that kind of ups the, it's, it's not just now we lost, darn it. You know, or, you know, even if it was really important to you, you still, you're going to, you know, you're still going to go home to your family and you're still going to tomorrow, the sun's still going to, you know, you're still going to go home to your family and you're still going to tomorrow. The sun's still going to come up and all those things.

So with bull riding, it's like it has all those elements. It has all those same elements of what you're trying to accomplish and winning and losing and championships and all that. But whenever you have something that can, can, it can kill you pretty easily. I'll just say, you know, I'm not sugarcoating it. And you know, that as a bull rider, I know it better than you know it, because I've been down there and looked at devil right in the eye. You know, I know how rough it gets. I know how dangerous it can get. You know, I've, I've had a lot of friends die. I've had friends be maimed. I've had friends have brain injuries that were changed them forever. I have friends that are paralyzed. Trust me. I know,

I know all about the dangers of this sport, but for the first 32 years of my life, it felt worth it to me. It doesn't now. Now I'm 52. I'm a dad. I'm a husband. There's, there's other things that feel way more important you know it almost feels silly to me sometimes when i look back at at my rodeo career it almost feels like where for the first 32 years of my life it was the only thing you know what i mean it was like that's what drove me every day and i thought it was the most important thing and i thought it was you know i was going to do whatever it took, and it doesn't feel that way to me anymore. You know,

it's, I, I, I'm not saying that discounting, I feel very lucky and fortunate and honored with the accolades that I was able to achieve in the sport. And it's a big part of who I am. And it's a, it's a gigantic part of what I have. So I'm not discounting it. I'm just at a different place in my life now where it doesn't feel the way it used to feel to me, because you can't guarantee when you ride bulls, you can't guarantee you're going to stay on. You can't guarantee you're going to get a good score. Can't guarantee anything. But the one thing that I could guarantee every time, I only knew I could guarantee one thing. And that was, I was going to try harder than anybody else. And, and so, you know, that's what I tried to do. And that that's mental. That's not, that's mental. You know, slice it up however you want.

It still comes down to your mental game of being able to commit and say, you know, bull riding is not a thing that you put your toe in water and kind of say, how's it feel? You know what I mean? Like you it's a thing where when I try to explain it to people, because sometimes people will say, well, car racing is dangerous or downhill speed skiing is dangerous. Or, you know, there's these other things that are dangerous. I'm like, absolutely. I said, but the difference is, like, if you're going to use car racing as an example, you're still the one with your foot on the throttle. And or the brake. And when you're talking about bull riding, the bull is in charge of the throttle when you nod your head and that gate opens the bull has the throttle and you've got to be able to decide if you're going to go there as when he pushes the throttle when and if he pushes the throttle to the max are you going to go there and that's all

mental to be able to be in a place that every time you can say, yeah, wherever, wherever this goes, I'm going. And, and that's, and I feel like that's, I feel like that's important in not only winning, but that's what keeps you safe. It's counterintuitive. You know, I think a lot of things in life are that way. I think sometimes what it feels like you should do is, is the wrong thing to do. And, and so, you know, being able to, to go for it and continue to try to do the right basic things, even when it's really scary and really hairy, uh, you've, you've got to, you've got to be able to do that. And all of that comes from here. Do we fall to our level of training or rise to occasions? I think that preparation is everything in sport.

Yeah, me too. I think preparation is everything and everything. I mean, really. Yeah, I do too. I think we fall to our level of training. But the wild card for many people, unfortunately, it doesn't have to be this way is their psychology. And I will say this, I will say this. If you, if you, if your brain works in a way that you are, it might, you, I don't know, you might call it a show off. I don't know what you call it, but if your brain

works in a way that when all the eyes are on you, you compete better, that is an important attribute to have in sport. You know, it's funny. There's an interesting finding when it comes to the psychology of sport is that mental skills have been found to mental skills. Training has been found to work for the majority, right? Unless you're a narcissist. If you're a true narcissist, what you need is for somebody to turn the lights on and when the lights turned on you go oh yes i'm here and you're at home and like

and i think you're talking about that and one level down from that which is like oh i love this okay it's go it's go time and that type of that type of thinking is easier to get to that flow zone type of thing that many people are looking for. If you're like, oh my God, this is dangerous. Okay, I got a lot on the line. I got to, I should have. Man, what if? All of that type of thinking is just so complicated. It pulls us out of the-

And counterproductive. That's counterproductive. That's the worst. Not counterintuitive. It's counterproductive. That's the word counterintuitive. It's counterproductive. And that's what I say about, I think there's an element of, you have to, you have to learn how to compartmentalize because when you're talking, and I think you have to compartmentalize in all sports. I think the stakes are higher in bull riding. I think the, I think the things that you are having to compartmentalize are, are a bigger thing to me, you know, it sure feels that way. I do liken it to big wave surfing where you're out in the wild.

Well, that's a great example. Yeah. But the ocean is going to decide the ocean has its foot on the throttle for sure. Once you commit and there's's a space there's a space between hesitation and commitment when you're paddling into the most dangerous thing that you could be paddling into there's a crest that's taking place and if you pull back or you or or hesitate in any kind of way it's a very dangerous space that's that so that's a that's a perfect analogy of what i was trying to say earlier about you've got to say i'm you're going to, hey, I'm not saying, you know, here's the thing that I always say. Like when I'm commentating and I see a guy put out a poor effort, I understand this is scary, dangerous stuff. It was, I did, I rode 6,000 times in my lifetime and it was scary every single time.

It's just, that's just what it is if you're not scared if you're getting on a bull that weighs 2 000 pounds and can jump four feet in there and his hind feet can go 12 feet in there and you're not in and you feel like oh there's nothing well you you got some other problems you know i mean i think that uh i think that somebody that tells you they're not scared is lying. And you've still got to be, if you are going to be the one that paddles into that wave, then don't come paddling into the wave and saying, yeah, but I'm going to put my toe in and see how it goes. If you're at the professional highest level and I'm the one going to commentate on it, you know, it ain't for everybody. I understand. I get it. It ain't for me now

whatsoever. But there was a time that it was for me. And when I paddled into that wave, I'm not going to have that hesitation. And that's what I was saying. I think from a young age, I learned that, that you go to it. And a lot of it, I think I learned from my dad and a lot of it I learned from experience. And every time I hesitated, it felt like I got wiped out. And so, so I quit hesitating and, and I'm not saying I, I was great every time or perfect every time or did things right every time, but that was the, my, my intent was it's go time and we're going. And, and, and, and, and I feel like that's, I feel like that's a really important part that is going to get you past the, the, the physical of it. Because as I said, you, when you get to the highest level of anything, everybody's pretty damn good, you know? And, and so there's gotta be something that something that goes further than that.

Out of 6,000 times on a bull, how many or what percentage of the time would you say you reach that flow state, that zone, being in the pocket where it was just easy? My riding percentage when I retired was at 75%. And there was years, I know there was years that it was a lot better than that i had in 1998 when i broke the record i went to i went to 56 rodeos that year and i got a check in the bull riding at 53 of them so that's pretty that's a pretty high percentage now it doesn't always did you but what percentage did you find that flow state now that's a good question what i was going to say is if my writing percentage was 85 i don't necessarily say the flow state was 85 that's right i was getting it done here and here and there where it did where it was hard and i was struggling a little and i was a little bit behind

and i made the wrong move and then things get wonky and it kind of snowballs on you and you have to work your way through it and fight to get back that's not flow state that's where you're just you're just grinding it out and through your toughness and your experience you're maybe still pulling it off anyway but those moments where those moments where it's just you know think of it like think of it like being a batter and and the guy throws a hundred mile an hour pitch. You're not going, okay, here the ball comes. Yeah, it looks like I need to move my bat down about two inches. You know, that ain't how it goes. You've got to decide even if you're going to swing about the time he's releasing it.

I mean, this is stuff that's going like that. And it's so, you know, you watch those guys that step up there and the guy throws it a hundred miles an hour and they just swing like nothing and make perfect contact and that ball flies forever that's just that's just uh that's just preparedness i don't know if you've seen the seen this book i can't think of the name of it but it was a book about sports and it talked about chunking time do you know what i'm talking about where they took the they took the like the best batter in major league baseball and brought in a girl softball pitcher and he couldn't hit her, you

know, and that's, that's just because that isn't what his dedication and practice was for. So he didn't know how to, you know, he didn't know how to hit that completely different rhythm, completely different visual. Everything about it was different. Yeah. That being able to be able to, to use your words chunk it's frames of reference is that it's literally a different game. The best of the best know how to pick up slight angles of hips or shoulders or head nods or rotations to go, Oh, I know it's, I can see that I've seen that. But if it's, if it's new, it's new. That comes from experience. That's it. You know, if you're going to, if you're going to get great at that, at what we're talking

about, that's through experience and, and through dedication and practice, but a lot of dedication and a lot of practice is what can give you a lot of experience. So bring me in and we're going to wrap up here. I want to say thank you for this conversation, but bring me in and we're going to wrap up here. I want to say thank you for this conversation, but bring me in. You're about ready to get on an 1800 pound raging animal that's pinned up, doesn't like any of it. Walk me through like putting your legs around it, getting your, your wrist and your hand tied in, like, walk me through how, how that works for you, your heart rate, your thinking. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's obviously very different, you know, for me than it would be for just John Q public, um, because this is something that I've done so many times. And I was always, I was, there was always a nervousness and a scaredness always. I mean, I,

I'm just, I'm just telling you like it is for me. I'm just being honest. There was never a time that I got on a bull and was like, yeah, I'm not scared at all. Not one bit. No, there was never, you know, and, and there was, you know, there's maybe times with certain bulls that your heart's beating harder than on this other bull, you know, but, but every single time I had a respect for it because an animal that weighs 2000 pounds can smash you without even trying to, you know what I mean? It doesn't, they don't have to be mean when they're, when they're that big, you're in a dangerous environment. And so for me, having all these things that we've talked about in place, uh, would, would help. I would be nervous leading up to it. I might even be nervous about it that

day. And then, you know, you get to the locker room and you're getting all your equipment ready and, you know, you're maybe taping your knees or doing whatever it is that you need to do to get prepared. And you can even be nervous in that moment. But it's like I would try to always. I would try to always put myself I would always go visit with a great friend or I'd go watch a guy ride that was a guy that inspires me. And then once it was time to climb into the chute, there was, for me, there was always a calmness that would happen in that moment. Because when you, when you get to that moment, it's like your preparedness, your practice, your, your dedication, that's where that takes over.

And so this is just, um, so now, you know, you would be, I would always be more nervous, uh, you know, outside of that time than I was when I was actually crawling down into the shoot, because when you're crawling down in the shoot, you, you, you've done that so many times. Like I, I would get, I would get on 10 calves a day when I was three years old the chute, you've done that so many times. Like I would get, I would get on 10 calves a day when I was three years old. You know, I mean, I was just ate up with it. I couldn't do it enough. Like I just wanted to do it and do it and get better at it and try. And so it's like, when you get to that place where it's just a matter of, okay, now this is what I do. I didn't really feel nervous in that, at that point, but definitely there was definitely nerves and, and, uh, uh, a scariness, you know, every time.

And, and when I'm saying you're scared, I'm not talking about like, I'm scared. Oh, oh no. You know, I'm just saying, you, you know, that'm just saying, you, you know that what you're doing, you know, that what you're doing can can have a very high consequence. And so, you know, that every time. And so to me, it just makes you become more hyper aware that you better do the things that we've been talking about. As far as you're not going to dab your toe in the water here.

There's no this isn't where you want to hesitate. You know this. And if you do want to hesitate, then don't ride bulls or do you know what I mean? Like like I understand. I you know, I understand that that feeling. I understand being scared. I understand, you know, feeling like, man, I'm doing something I could get wiped out at, but if you're going to paddle into that wave, you better, I don't know that much about surfing, but you, other, uh, uh, other than I, I feel like you better go for it. If you're going to, if you're going to paddle into it, you better be

entered and you better stay hooked because you don't want to go into that with that hesitation. That's what gets you pummeled. All the greats in consequential environments say something almost identical to what you're saying, which is it's scary. And you know what? I'm attracted to it. And I'm attracted to it because I'm alive. And then when it comes down to that moment,

when it comes to that commitment piece, it gets quiet. And so I rely on all, I rely on all my physical training. I rely on my ability to use my mind in this moment for the most productive, the most optimal way that I can be thinking. And I got to let go, trust and completely be in rhythm with the unfolding danger that's in front of me. Here's one more thing I would say about this though. You have to learn how to have perfect control of your brain without thinking too much you know i mean i've seen i've seen guys i've seen so many guys that do that that they understand that it's the mental game but they're like trying to be all you know what should i be thinking should i be thinking this am i positive enough am i being positive enough should i should i be you know and it doesn't work

like you can't get in that play yeah it doesn't work like that you can't get in that place where you're spending all your time thinking about what you ought to be thinking about. You know, it's to me, that's sort of that well, and yeah, that's, that's, that's the fool's game. That's like the amateur game. And at some level, like the thinking is right, which is like, listen, I need, I got to have some command of my mind. But if you're, if you're about to get strapped to a 2000 pound raging animal, like

that's not the time to be sorting out what the greatest thoughts are, because what you want to be able to do is let go and trust. And people say to me all the time, like, Mike, like, what are you trying to, like, what do you say? Or what do you do? I said, listen, the day of when, before they're going out, if I'm there, I'm just like just like i'm doing i'm just nodding my head you know like what are you what are you talking about are you talking about surfing i'm talking about any environment anything okay any environment of consequence yeah yeah and so um okay to honor your time do you last just a couple quick hits are you and this is like super simple answers you've talked about feel feel for the animal you've talked about a feel when you get on the bull

so that you can let go do you feel it now as you're talking about it uh i just feel like we're just having a chat i mean i don't i don't it doesn't really feel like that to me now like okay like feel feel is feel with with bull riding in a nutshell i'm going to talk about two different things here but bull riding in a nutshell is i think the layman you know thinks okay it's crazy cowboy he gets on he holds on for dear life. The strongest guy in the world ain't going to hold on for dear life when you're talking about how big and how strong and how fast and how powerful these animals are.

What bull riding is in a nutshell is constantly being able to put your body into a position that counteracts what the bull is doing to try to get you off of his back. Now, when you're talking about counter movement, without feel, you're not going to be able to have timing and balance. So when I'm talking about feel with riding a bucking animal, that feel comes through experience.

It comes through practice it comes through um you know a lot of that dedication of practicing at it and and learning it and getting good at it um that's when you can start to feel and you know what's you know what's coming so that's where you can counter it. So a counter move is like a boxer. The more experience you have, you know when he's going to throw that jab. And to counter it, it has to be timed perfectly. So you're having feel so that you can time your counter movement perfectly. Feel with a horse, it's like starting a young horse.

It's a little bit different what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you're trying to feel, and I'm not trying to get all where it sounds like I'm some yogi or something, but it's an important element. you see your your your horsemanship get whenever you can feel yourself your intentions your body language you can feel the horse's body language and intentions and you can see in his eyes and his ears and his and all of his mannerisms you know what he's telling you if he's telling you he's scared if he's telling you now maybe i'm not going to pay any attention to you today i don't feel like you've got to be able to feel these things and then know the appropriate thing to do and and feel when you're talking about learning to to talk to a to an animal that you can't talk to feel is is being able to say that yes like i was talking about so if i want you to follow me and

you're a martian and you and i can't speak and i go up and grab your shirt and just start dragging you along pretty soon you're gonna go wait a minute you know i don't know if he even wants me to come along because i'm coming along but he's still dragging me you know does that make sense so phil would be like where i could come up and i could take your shirt and i kind of pull you towards me and if you start to come towards me i quit pulling you that's that's your yes yes that's what i wanted where if i just keep dragging you're like well you know that's that doesn't work so the better the better you can get it at all these different ways to feel, um, with a horse. That's, that's very, I know, I know.

Cause I've proven it to myself a million times that it's very important to the horse. I've loved this conversation, Ty. I have. Yeah, it's been fun. I, you, you kind of took me, you know, I, uh this is unlike anything i've done i've done a million interviews i can tell you that and this one is definitely uh different than than anyone that i've ever done and i and i enjoyed it too oh thank you for that yeah i i could i felt it and so where do you want to where can we drive people and um, you've also, you're also a legend in business starting,

you know, PBR, like all of that. I'll explain all of that in the intro. Um, but where do you want to drive people to, to be able to follow along, uh, your insights and your adventure? Well, I have a, um, you know, I have a Facebook page. I don't really do Instagram, um, that much. My wife does a lot. Um, uh, I, I do some, I, I do some things with horsemanship on Facebook because it's my passion and I'm trying to help to get better information out there to people. There's been so much bad information handed down for so many generations that, you know, it's like I was telling you about the Chinese telephone. It's just, it keeps losing the essence to where it's down to,

it's down to where it's just horrible in, in, in some ways and sometimes in some places. And, and so it's, it's something that I enjoy. It's something that when I go down and work with a young horse, it feels, I'll feel like I've been down there five minutes and I'll look at my watch and four hours went by. And so that's when you know you love something is when it feels like that. And so I have this incredible passion for it. I have a real passion to try to get better at it, but I also have a real passion to share

it because I want to see things get better for the horse. I don't, I don't want to see people drag you by the shirt all the way for a mile. You know what I mean? I want, I want to see people be able to give the horse a better deal and work from a place that makes sense to the horse instead of trying to shove all of our ways of thinking and all of our rules that we have in our head down the horse's throat. And so it's not about, if you're going to, you can make horses do things. And that's where I think it sometimes gets confusing to people, because you can make a horse do things if, you know, a tough guy that can, that can stay, stay at it, but, but you're never going to have a, you're never going to have a partner. You're never going to have a horse that you can trust.

He's always going to try to get rid of you when you need him the most. And so the better you can become at having a, a true partnership relationship with a horse that there's, that there's, that you're giving them information, subtle, steady stream of information a hundred percent of the time, then it takes the anxiety out of it. And it's just a subtle conversation that, you know, now I want to go over here and I want to stop. I want to back up. I want to turn around. We got to get that cow. Don't let that cow go over here. We got to stop them. If it can start to operate where it feels like it's you're operating

your own legs, that's when it feels better to not only you, but it feels better to the horse. And so that's something that really intrigues me and something that I love working at and trying to get better at. And I have a lot of respect for the, for the few people that I see that I think are really high level, top notch at it. And so, um, that's why I like to share it. I like, I like to see the horse. It's, it's nice when you see a horse get a better deal instead of horses. Don't they don't, there's so many people that will you see a horse get a better deal instead of horses. Horses don't, they don't, there's so many people that will like punish a horse.

They don't make the connection. They don't make the connection. They don't know. It sounds like relationships in general. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I w I would say so, but the difference is at least humans, I guess we're not maybe all great at communicating, but at least we understand the language and we can talk to each other. With a horse, you have to learn body language. It's the only way you have to learn body language and learn how to be consistent at it to where

you're not changing the words. The words have to stay the same. And if you can work from a place that you have the knowledge and the understanding of the way the horse sees the world, that's where you're working from a good place. As long as we just keep trying to shove our way of thinking and our brain function and the way we do things things as long as we keep trying to put that onto the horse you're going to have trouble it's going to be like this because they're

not us they're not they're not a predator they're a prey animal and there's a huge difference in that they're a natural born follower follower and and until you start to have a have a rapport and a feel and and you guys are understanding the words then you can change by rewarding the behaviors that make it safer for both of you ah the insights keep flowing ty thank you and please um please thank paige for oh yeah together yeah yeah what a treat well i i enjoyed it as well. And I think you got an interesting podcast. You do a great job interviewing.

And that's definitely a talent. So I appreciate it as well. All the best to you, Ty. Yeah. Good meeting you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Yeah. Good meeting you. listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights,

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