Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Human Side of Human Resources: Creating Authentic Connection with Rhonda Morris

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

What does it take to lead at the highest levels—while staying true to who you are?Today’s guest is Rhonda Morris, the former VP and Chief Human Resources Officer of Chevron. Rhonda is a powerhouse—sharp, competitive, and deeply committed to helping others perform at their best. How do I know that? Because we’re friends.Her journey started back in Oakland, California playing sports with the neighborhood kids, determined to be picked first. That same fire and relentless drive propelled her to become the first African American female corporate officer in Chevron’s 140-year history. Success at that level doesn’t come without challenges.This is the second installment of our Modern Leadership Series. If you haven’t listened to our first episode with Matt Breitfelder, I highly recommend you go and listen to that one as well. These are conversations with the people who are helping to define Modern Leadership and what it takes to build the next generation of leaders. Everyone who knows Rhonda knows that she leads authentically. That’s how she’s broken barriers and led at one of the largest organizations on the planet. Check out this week’s amazing conversation with Rhonda Morris._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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you are the person, your direct reports go home and talk to their partner, their kids, their friends about, and you control what they say about you. Is it good or is it bad? And in your hands with these people, you can be a confidence builder or a confidence destroyer. That's a pretty powerful position to be in. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. I trade in training a high-performance psychologist. This is the second installment in a series of conversations we've been having with global leaders in human resources. They are at the

forefront of helping define modern leadership and what it takes to attract and retain and build the next generation of leaders. From the shift to and from hybrid work to the integration of emerging technologies like AI, these conversations highlight the leadership capabilities that will help teams thrive in the modern workplace. Today's guest is Rhonda Morris, the former chief human resources officer at Chevron. Rhonda's a powerhouse. She is sharp and competitive and deeply committed to helping others perform at their best. I think leaders now have to have a deeper understanding of people than they've ever had before. And everyone who knows Rhonda knows that she leads authentically.

That's how she's broken barriers. I have been on many leadership teams where I was a double only, the only woman, the only person of color. And it's really hard to explain what that feels like unless you're in that situation. So with that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Rhonda Morris. Okay, Rhonda. Okay. What is important for me to know to understand you? I think it's important for you to know the role sports plays in my life.

And right now, I am a deeply brokenhearted sports fan. So you've grown up with sports. Is this something that your whole life you've been into sports? Yes, I have. And in some ways, I think the relationship I have with sports has actually helped me be successful in my professional career. Because when I was growing up, and I grew up in Oakland, California, in a blue-collar neighborhood, and I grew up at a time when children didn't have play dates. You went outside and you played with whoever was outside until your mother started screaming for you to come in the house and eat dinner. And all the kids in my neighborhood were boys, all of them. So there were no girls my age. I have an older sister, the older kids who were girls were my sister's age. And this was a time where the older kids didn't really play with the younger kids. So I was forced to play with

boys. And in my job now, I'm still playing largely with boys. Yeah. What do you think is an advantage that that would have given you? And I think this is a two-part question. The advantage of sport in general, your relationship with it, and that's either playing or supporting. And then the second part of the question is, what do you think the relationship with competing with boys at a young age, how that might have helped or not helped? Oh, it helped tremendously. So number one, I learned, so I'm very competitive. I like winning. And I learned when I was very young that in order, I wanted to be picked first. Remember when kids split up and they pick who's going to be on the team? I was never picked last because I'm so competitive. And I learned that in order to be

picked first, I had to be better than all of them. And I was. And when they realized I was going to help them win, they didn't care that I was a girl. They cared that I would help them win. Okay. Where did that come from? Mom, dad, cousins, uncles? Is there a family zeitgeist or is there a family ethos that had supported them? Not really. My parents, and this is, I think, maybe a little bit unusual. My parents are strong believers in education. My father passed away. I come from a family of educators. My grandmother was a principal at a school in Louisiana. She would tell all of her grandkids, you're going to college. So I grew up never thinking going to college was an option because it was drilled into us, you're going to college. But the drive to be the smartest person in my class, I don't really know where that came from.

Because I made a decision when I was 10. I was running track. I played basketball. And I gave up both of them because the time I was spending at practice was interfering with the time I had to study. And so I decided I had to make a trade-off. A trade-off. Intellectual and athletic prowess. Yes. And at age 10, you knew that the path you chose was more important than participating in sport. Well, at the time, that's what I thought. Yes. What does that mean? That

means I have often wondered what would have happened if I'd made the reverse decision. I do the same thing. Do you really? Yeah. Sometimes I can be really zen about it and be like, well, those are the choices. I made the choice, the best choices. And other times when I get down underneath the surface of that, there's like a pit in my stomach. And that pit in my stomach is if I only would have stayed a little bit longer, if I just would have gotten into that frame a little, like what would my future have been? And then I quickly pop up to the intellectual part, which is like, but my life now is really

good. And I like the choices that I've made, but what if? I think the same thing. And I pull myself up out of that also because I want to live a life with no regrets. My father worked two jobs my entire childhood up until I was in high school. And so what that meant was my family never ate dinner together because he wasn't home. We only ate dinner together on Sunday night, so one night a week. And so I didn't spend a lot of time with him. And I would get up early

in the morning and make his lunch to take to work. And if I got up early enough, I knew he would drop me off at school. So that gave me, and this is perhaps a five-minute car ride. My God, how beautiful. And all through, I was in elementary school. Oh, that's... And all through, I was in elementary school. I was little. I loved my father. I pretty much worshipped my father. So anytime I could get with him, which connects back to sports,

because I would go to football games. I don't have brothers. So I was essentially his son. My sister, if I asked my sister who won the Super Bowl, she couldn't tell you. If I asked my sister who was in the Super Bowl, she couldn't tell you. If I asked my sister who was in the Super Bowl, she couldn't tell you. So we are, I don't even remember if I've ever been to a sporting event with my older sister. But your relationship with your dad was so central. It's really touching that at that age you were of service to be connected.

I was trying. Thank you for sharing that because this is, this is, it makes sense to me why you are the best in the world. So when you think about helping people, so let's have fun with this idea. You're a chief human resource officer. How do you define being a chief human resource officer. How do you define being a chief human resource officer? If I think about kind of what is my role and my purpose in the company, I think there are a lot of different components of it. One is to either

build on or create a culture where people can perform at their very best. So what does that mean? I sometimes think about my job is to make sure we take away things that distract people from being their best. And that covers a pretty wide territory. So I would start with number one. Subtraction first. Yes. So what are the toxicities? What are the elements and the materials, both relationship and structural, that are getting in the way of people being their very best? It's interesting that you're framing

your job about helping people be their very best when, I need to understand this, when your mission is to be the best. Yes. So you're trying to take advantage of people? Definitely not. No. No. So help me understand why you want people to be their very best. And is that the same thing you're trying to do? I think it is the same thing I'm trying to do. I think if we have people who are performing at their very best in their his or her role, it's going to help our business achieve our objectives. Period. Period.

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comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

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And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check

them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-e-i-n dot com slash finding mastery i'm so aligned with that thought the fundamental commitment to help people be their very best yes and in doing that you have to be on point correct because because i would have to role model actually doing that that's. And if you think about one element of that would be leadership. And there's a lot of research that people leave bosses, not companies. I think it's true. And I'm a boomeranger in Chevron and I left the company and I'm kind of a proof point of that research. I didn't leave my boss.

I left his boss. And this was many, many years ago. But we spend so much time at work. We have a lot of internal leadership training in the company, and a lot of it is leader-taught. And I always share a belief that I have with the leaders in the class that I will point at them and I will tell them, you are the person your direct reports go home and talk to their partner, their kids, their friends about. And you control what they say about you. Is it good or is it bad? And in your hands with these people, you can be a confidence builder or a

confidence destroyer. That's a pretty powerful position to be in. That is also connected to helping people perform at their very best. And it's very similar to coaches with sports. I love the framing. We think about it above the line and below the line. Are you an above the line coach or a below the line coach? I don't know what that means. So above the line coaches, somehow they help you believe in a compelling future, that you have a role and a place that you belong and the way that you work matters and the straining and striving and the fact that you just breathe is important.

But the way that you apply yourself to our shared mission is awesome. And I fact that you just breathe is important, but the way that you apply yourself to our shared mission is awesome. And I see what you're trying to do. And I see, so there's a feeling of that the way that I hold and see another person, if I'm above the line, that they matter and they're important to the shared mission. So that's confidence building. Below the line are all of the ways that somebody relates to another person where they doubt themselves, they question themselves, they feel small, they go home and complain, they go home and they struggle or they feel like they need to pass on that level of critique to other people. Above the line, below the line. So that essentially is a foundational approach that you have to leadership. Yes.

And I hope that I am an above the line person. I always believe that you have to check whether your perception of yourself is how others perceive you. While I could think that, I would want to test it. If there was three things that you think you do well that keep you above the line, and I'm going to ask the same thing, like one thing that maybe might get in the way of you being below the line, but what are the three things that you say, okay, these are the three that help me be above the line that I do? I believe it is important for the people who report directly to me, and I would say it's important for the whole organization

to know that I care about them individually and collectively. Number two, and I'm not doing this really well right now, but, and I worked for someone who taught me how important this is, the success of the team overall is more important than the success of the individual. And that those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Cool. So we're part of something. We're part of something. Okay. Yes. And then number three, I'm pretty old school. You know this. I try to be thoughtful. I write a lot of thank you notes. You have some of my... I've benefited from the thoughtfulness of your... These are not like, hey, I'm thinking of you. Thank you so much. This is like a real note where you've spent time to do it. Yes. Can I tell

you something I did that I think was... I made a decision. This was two years ago. I had this meetings after COVID. And we had an extended HR leadership team meeting about 100 people. And we had planned this meeting in 2020, got postponed, didn't happen until I think 2022 or 2023. I decided I was going to write a handwritten message to every single person in this meeting. And it wasn't, thank you for all your hard work during COVID. Really appreciate you.

We're going to have a great meeting. Every single person had, except one, had a personalized message with something specific. They contributed. Now, there were seven people I didn't know, and I had to ask their boss, what should I recognize this person for? I was in Houston over a weekend weekend and halfway through, I thought, this is the dumbest idea ever. Because my hand hurt. I'm looking at this pile of envelopes and I thought, I cannot do this. And I thought, but I'm halfway finished. And so I have to finish.

And I did. And each person got a little kind of swag bag with some things in it, but in it was their individualized note. And there were three blank cards because we built into this meeting and exercise at the end to write to someone else. Oh, you just, I was, this whole time you were saying, I'm like, that's rad, that's right. And I wanted to tell you a story. And so I'll tell you the story, but you just,

you just took it to another level that I was not able to ever have. So the beginning of every season in a football team, we end up with about 70-some athletes at the end of the year and 25 coaches. And I knew that what I needed to do by the end of the year, I wanted to write a note and put it in the locker at the last day of the season. But I needed to have something meaningful to say. So it gave me this end point to really know somebody. Because if I don't know them, I don't know what to write.

That's a lot of relationships to build. And it was awesome. And some people would say, that was really cool. And most never said anything. But I didn't. You just up-leveled the game to put three notes underneath of it and say, hey, if inspired, take a moment and write a note to somebody else on the team. That is culture building.

I hope so. You didn't ask me a question. I didn't ask you a question? I said, except one. Oh, I missed that. Wait, there was one person on the team? There's one person I did not write to. Please do.

So I mentioned I was in Houston. Everybody in the company, and this gets back to my broken sports heart. So whenever the A's play the Astros, I'm in Houston. This has been going on for years. So people will schedule meetings knowing I'm in town, whether I take a group of employers or I go by myself. By freak coincidence, the team stays in the hotel I stay in. As much as I loved baseball as a little kid growing up,

I am really, I think one of the coolest parts of my life right now is I actually know professional baseball players personally. And so they know I'm at the game. A couple of them will ask me where I'm sitting. And I was sitting in the coffee area in the hotel working on this. And I had actually taken about 10 of these cards with me. And Tony Kemp, who was, he's a kind of utility player for the Azor, he was at the time, came by and he said, Rhonda, what are you doing? And I write with fountain pens, so it's even more old school. And I explained what I was doing and he's like, wow. And he said something absolutely incredible to me.

He said, can I help you? I said, what? And he said, can I help you? I said, what? And he said, can I help you? And he's by himself. You know, the game wasn't for several hours. And I thought about it. And I've looked through because I had addressed the envelopes. And I said, well, half these people are from outside the United States and don't care about baseball. And the other half don't care about baseball at all. And I'm looking through and I said, this one cares about baseball. He's a Cubs fan. And he said, I played for the Cubs. I'll write to him. Oh, that is so good.

So the one person I didn't write to had a card written by Tony Kemp. Not only is that awesome, you're great at storytelling, but you just like the last moment, I was like, oh no, there was a toxic person that she just couldn't, she couldn't stand to write. It's not that. No, no, it turned into a great story. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What is a human resource? greatest asset. If you think, again, I think there's so many correlations between business and sports. A sports team's not going to win unless you have the best players working

together as a single unit. Same thing applies to a company and the people in the company, and those people are human resources. And so is the human resource in service of productivity, or are you providing resources for the humans? Both. Tell me more. I don't think it has to be one or the other. And the older I get and the longer, and I've been with Shor a really long time, we have a pretty unique culture.

Great resignation didn't happen in our company. People tend to spend their entire careers with us. And if I'm not answering your question, bring me back, please. But I often think about what is it about this organization? What's the secret sauce that causes this low turnover? And I think our human resources have a pretty powerful community. And in the world, communities are eroding everywhere. People don't go to church as much as they used to. You don't know your neighbors as well as you used to.

And yet we have a company where people literally grow old together. And they're on different teams at different times together. And they go through life changes, whether it's dating, getting married, having kids, watching kids grow up, aging parents, having someone important in your life who has a serious illness. And that's a pretty powerful community that builds connective tissue and keeps us, it keeps us bonded pretty tightly together. When we get more technical in the skills to be a great CHRO, what are the technical skills that are most important for you to be great? A laser sharp focus and understanding on execution and how to get

things done. And knowing that it's not always a straight line. Because I believe in getting from point A to point B, but I also believe there's not one way to do that. And in a company like ours, where relationships matter deeply, it's important to bring people along with you. So if you just say, we're going from point A to point B, in most cases, that's not going to work. Having people understand the reasons we're doing this, how is this going to make us better, stronger, faster in the future, getting head nods, understanding how do you get the head nods, you know, and not the fake head nods the real head nods i'm with you and even understanding the fake head nods like i'm gonna nod my head in the meeting and i'm gonna walk out and go she is out of her mind i'm never doing that and there's a

finesse to that understanding the world is gray not black and white and it's becoming grayer and grayer and grayer and grayer and if you can't understand and deal with that, you will never be successful in this type of role. So I want to be really sensitive because you've done something that many people don't know how to do. Fully be yourself, be a world's best in something that is meaningful to you, and it serves all of your core principles. Help me understand if there has been or not challenges in race and gender that you've faced. Oh, there have been many. So I was a bit naive when I got in my head, and I didn't join Chevron with the intention of getting this job, but as I was progressing through my career and it became a possibility, I thought, wow, I have an opportunity. I am the first black female corporate officer in the history of our company.

Our company's over 140 years old. And so I thought that was something I would be proud of. What I didn't realize is what came with that. And I have been on many leadership teams where I was a double only, the only woman, the only person of color. And it's really hard to explain what that feels like unless you're in that situation. And so it has a negative impact on being able to focus. Sometimes you have this talk track in your head of why am I being talked over? Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm female? Is it both? After George Floyd was murdered, and this is, as everybody knows, in the midst of scary COVID, super scary COVID, we were having executive leadership team meetings every single day. And I was talking with one of my peers on a video call, and he said, how are you?

This is five days after George Floyd is murdered. And I said, I'm not doing very well. And he said, really? Why? And at that moment, America was literally on fire. And I thought, how in the world can he not understand how this is impacting me as a black American? And so that evening, and we were having these meetings every day, and what had happened to George Floyd was never mentioned.

Never mentioned. And meanwhile, our employees are posting on social media, mostly our black American employees, that they're not okay. And so all what happened to George, because of George Floyd's murder. I am not okay either. I have often thought about sharing with you what it is like to be the only female and the only person of color on this leadership team. And I thought about doing it during our last off-site, but I didn't have the courage to do so. But one day I will. And in the interim, I want you to watch this 50-minute video from the El Segundo Refinery because the leaders in that facility, the refinery manager and operations manager,

had a discussion with the leaders of the Black Employee Network, and they taped it. It was very powerful, and the employees talked about what it felt like to be a Black American at that time, and what it felt like to be a Black American Chevron employee. And so I hit send on this at like 11 o'clock at night. I don't write things like that, but I was in a space where I wasn't being seen. And I also said, I often wonder what do you see when you see me? I just want to highlight for a moment the brilliance in that approach. So clear what you're conveying, but you also created a safety bubble around it. There's a thing that's really important that I didn't address. And you say the important thing, but then you didn't address it.

And that brilliant tactic allows people to understand there's something happening, and it also gives them permission to check in or to ignore. Correct. And then you get to observe, and you get get to watch and you get to see what they do with this piece of information. And that as a tactic to be honest with oneself, to share in a vulnerable, courageous way to others, and then to still maintain power within yourself. The brilliance of that tactic, you've probably played that out, not maybe fully known how powerful that tactic is. But I just want to highlight that as what I

would consider a modern leadership approach. Honesty, courage, vulnerability, truth-telling, and not doing it in a way that is offensive, but holding power. I love every bit of it. Well, thank you. I've only talked about that very rarely, and no one's ever said it was brilliant, so I appreciate that. Really? Like, do you use this on a regular basis? I'd very rarely talk about this.

No, no, not this subject. Oh, this approach. Yeah, the approach. Yeah. Probably. Wait, but- But not- You're the trained psychologist here, not me. So I don't know

what I'm doing. Like you said, I was neurotic earlier. So am I. Yes. This is why we like each other. Let me explain neuroticism, and then we go back to something I accidentally stepped on. Neuroticism, meaning there's this energy inside that needs to come out. And sometimes it feels wild and unsettling. But there's something inside that is untamed and it's wild. And I see you as a wild one, often confined in a tame environment. And so that tension, that's how I have come to know you. And that tension that you've been able to exercise both parts is remarkable. But the thing that I stepped on

accidentally is that you don't often talk about race and gender. I think that that's what you were saying. Yes. No, I will talk about race and gender. I don't talk about that experience. I see. I don't talk about that because it was incredibly raw. And it took me a good five weeks to figure out how do I have the courage to have this conversation with them? And how do I structure this conversation in such a manner that people don't get their backs up or feel like it was a personal attack, and I use sports.

Yeah, there you go. So I want to double-click on one part of this, and then I have two really important questions I want to get to. To double-click on this, when you are younger, you size people people up it's that i want to be better than them yes and then you have this framing as as you've become older which is i want to help other people be great so there's an interesting parallel between those two for me and you said um to be the very best i need to be skilled at something. So I need to spend time to get better at it.

So you dropped something that you loved, athletics, to invest in the intellectual part of life. Right. Okay. And then we're talking about the way that you show up and the guidance you are giving to another person. What do you want them to focus on? And my wife's aunt was born in Cuba. I was one of the first generation here, an immigrant to this country. She's five foot three Latina. And she's always said to our family, I've known her since I was 15. She's always said,

as a five foot three Latina woman, I have to be better. I have to be, I think she uses something like 25% better than everybody else because of the way I look, my stature, gender, race, the whole, like I have to be better. Is that a true experience for you as well? Without a doubt. I have to be. I cannot, I don't have the grace to make mistakes. How do you manage that? It makes me crazy. But I have a quote from Winston Churchill on my refrigerator that says, never, ever, ever give up. And I look at that every day.

That's a source of power for you? Yes. Never, ever, ever give up. Yes. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And when you are going to do something that has pressure and stress around it, you've got to make a decision or a call or raise your hand or say something. And it could be you're in that messy edge where mistakes could happen. Yes. How do you prepare yourself to ready yourself? Those are two

distinctly different words. Prepare yourself to ready yourself to be great in those moments where the margins of error are, there is not a luxury for a margin of error for you that there might be for others. Sometimes I think about what's the worst thing that could happen if I don't do this, number one, and if I don't do this this way. I have to give a lot of advice or counsel to a lot of people that I work with. And sometimes I feel like my job is to make sure that person makes the most well-informed decision he or she can make. And that's what my job is. And that means many times telling people things they don't want to hear. If you do this, these are the possible outcomes. This is a good way to do it where you'll have the optimal outcome. If you head down this path, these are the things that are going to go where the tree will wreck. And I have to do that frequently.

And I have to be comfortable telling people things that they don't necessarily want to hear and that they don't necessarily like and that aren't popular. Dragon slayer. Your practice at being a dragon slayer. Yeah. Okay. All right. So what is the role of psychology for modern leadership? I think it's evolving. I think leaders now have to have a deeper understanding of people than they've ever had before. I think they have to have conversations that they've at least, and I'll use Chevron as an example in how I kind of grew up in the company. Nobody talked about feelings at work ever, male, female, you did not talk about your feelings. You didn't, if you asked, it was kind of like in society where people would say, how are you? And the phrase, how are you, is really a euphemism for hi. And if you

really stopped someone and you said, you know, I'm really struggling today. I didn't sleep last night. They're like, why are you telling me this? I think we've evolved. And I think that's probably one of the benefits of COVID. People actually are a bit more comfortable saying how they really are. One of your peers, Matt Breyfelder from Apollo Global. I want to share this quote with you and then get your response. The strange gift of COVID is that we got to humanize our workforce. Yes. How do you respond to that? He's right.

We had evidence of that within our own company. And I'll give you a couple of examples we had and i'm really proud of this there's actually a harvard business review article about it in 2020 when we realized that all these kids who went made that sharp left turn and were remote learning weren't going to have anything to do in the summertime. And their parents were already going a little crazy with the remote learning and the remote working. And we have an internal social media platform called Workplace. And we have all these different groups, Chevron Dogs, Chevron Cats, Chevron Parents. So I start looking in the parents thread, and there's all of this chatter about camps being canceled. So I put in a, and I use this to communicate,

I use this platform to communicate all kinds of crazy things with our workforce. I put in a question and I said, I've noticed this thread of canceled camps. Would you guys be interested if we created our own virtual summer camp? And it like exploded. And in five weeks, we created Camp Chevvron it was amazing it was so fun that is awesome and we used marshall the resources of this army of retirees of partners of ours and we had exercise class art class we had a geology class and it was tiered for different age groups

financial finance for high school students. My favorite part of all, and this gets to the humanizing piece, was we had executive story time. So the CEO and every single one of his direct reports was taped reading their favorite children's book. Oh. And when I proposed this in a meeting, they all looked at me like I had horns coming out of my head and said, we are never doing that.

And I said, yes, you are. And it shifted from I am never doing this to a competition of who did it best and who had the most views. So our CEO read Green Eggs and Ham. Our general counsel read Ferdinand. And he had curated his space with little bulls to match the story. I read where the wild things are. And that allowed…

I told you you're a wild one. I just knew it there. Yes. And so think about the power of that. I love that idea. That whole concept. There's a yin-yang in there that's awesome. These serious adults speaking and creating and competing.

Right, and turning the page. Okay. Kathleen Hogan. Kathleen Hogan. One of your peers as well, the CHRO. And good friend. And good friend at Microsoft. Her quote, we are facing a human energy crisis. Yes. She called me before she shared that because Chevron is known as the human energy company.

She's like, you guys have a problem with this? And I said, no. I think Kathleen is right because there's still epic fatigue pretty much everywhere. People are, there's fatigue that's left over from the pandemic. There's fatigue, I think, that's created by all these external things that are happening in the world that are out of our control. I don't think anyone ever imagined there would be two ground wars happening at the same time in our lifetime.

It sounds pretty incredible. There's a lot of polarization about a whole host of issues. And then lots of companies, and I'm sure you've heard this, are asking people to do more with less. And so this creates this kind of monumental fatigue. So the question is, how do you create relief valves? And well, this is, I think, what you're going to ask me. How do you deal with that? I don't think anyone has cracked the code on it. I don't. However, I think there are little things that can turn into big things that will make a difference. And I'm not a big fan of creating new initiatives or edicts for people to do things.

But over time, I've realized that we are very bad at taking vacation and taking the holidays. And I spent seven years working in London and a lot of time all over Europe. And Europeans treat, they call them holidays, very differently than Americans do. Sometimes our vacations are days when you work just a little bit less. And I... Or you wake up earlier to get to the emails and step later to get to the email. That doesn't help you rest and recharge and turn off. And I often think about how did we get here and how do we get out of this?

And so there are two things I'm kind of working on. And I'm sure you can tell I'm a huge believer in the power of stories. So I made a decision during the pandemic to stop emailing my direct reports on the weekends unless it was a crisis. And I didn't tell them. And one of them noticed about four months later and said, you stopped emailing us on the weekends. I said, yep, I have because I'm contributing to the problem.

If I'm emailing you on the weekend, it doesn't matter if this is time sensitive or not, you're probably going to respond. That's taking you away from your family. It's not giving you a break. And most of the things we do can wait. So I just stopped. And that takes a lot of, that's hard. It's hard for me.

It takes a lot of discipline. And I work on the weekends still. You know, I will respond to the CEO discipline. And I work on the weekends still. I will respond to the CEO if he sends me something or the vice chairman. But I made a conscious decision, I'm not going to do that to my direct workers because I want them to have some time off and to have a break. And if they write to me, I don't respond unless it's crisis. And that's also hard because I know they're waiting for a response or I'll respond and time it so it arrives on Monday. The second thing I would share, I spent a lot of

time earlier in my career in our manufacturing facilities. And I was in this meeting that blew my mind last year. And it was a manufacturing leadership team meeting. And so these are the heads of these facilities from all over the U.S. And at one of them, not El Segundo, but one of our other facilities, we had a strike earlier in the year. And I sat through a discussion about what was that like. And I, you know, would get the strike updates, and it went on for longer than anybody imagined. But what I had never heard was the impact this had

on the people who actually, and we hadn't had a strike in any facility in a really long time. And there were men and women talking about sleeping in the facility. They were talking about when they would go home, they would cry because it was so difficult, the fractured relationships amongst. Some of them talked about what they did when the strike ended to go on

vacation and how hard it was. Most of us have a work phone and a personal phone to turn off the work phone. And I remember I was very struck by one leader who said, I put my work phone in a safe and I locked it up. And then I left my house and went on vacation. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't know what's going on. And she talked about how she had to kind of unlearn this. She said, why do I think I'm so important that this place can't run without me? This wasn't even the refinery manager. This was one of the refinery manager's direct report.

And she said, it took me two or three days to just realize, you know, everything is okay. I don't need to do this. And so I repeat this a lot because I think there's so much power in the vulnerability of sharing it and actually letting people know, guess what? You know, we're not as important as we think we are, and the ship's going to keep sailing with or without us. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health.

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I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance.

There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose

from. So whether you're a side sleeper, stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a dot com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I needed to hear that right now. I just, two parts to it. My mentor, who's known me since I was 15, he says to me one day,

we're like five years into our relationship, and he says, Mike, you know, you really matter to the people in your lives. Like, you show up, like, you really matter to them. And I also want to remind you, in the big scheme of things, you're really insignificant. So that's like a seed that was watered you know 20 years ago that i really appreciate and just yesterday

a friend of mine he's like a colleague slash friend so we've done a bunch of business together but there's no real business right now it was a catch-up that we wanted to have a breakfast catch-up it was four weeks until i could have a breakfast with him because I have international meetings that we hold early in the morning. And so there's a time thing. So he writes back and he says, either things are really good or really bad. Laugh. And he says, you really need to learn how to delegate.

Oh, wow. I said, OK. Thank you. Point taken. Point taken. Okay. All right. So last, we've got just a handful of moments together. Okay. I would love to give you just a couple of quick hits to answer. So it's just reflexive to see where you take these. Okay. My vision is to live life with no regrets. My purpose? Is to be disruptive.

Success is? Being happy. If there was one master of craft born well before us or currently living now, and you could sit with that master of craft over dinner, who would that person be and what would the meal be? Christine Lagarde. I don't know Christine Lagarde. She's the head of the International Monetary Fund. Of course. Yes. Okay.

I've admired her for years. She's a woman who's been in a male-dominated environment her entire career. She has held her own in incredible environments. She has listened to, and she is wickedly disciplined. Thank you. And where are you going to, what type of meal? What type of meal? So she also doesn't drink alcohol. So it'd have to be, I don't, I don't, I studied her for a long time. I'm not a big foodie. I'd be happy with a salad. Okay. Caligrino. Boring. I know I'm boring. I, I, I'm a vegetarian. Of course I'm boring. A modern leader is? Curious. I love that. I think that is incredible. If you could name a boat, what would you name it?

What kind of boat? That's a cool question. I'm thinking of an ocean-based boat. I would probably name a boat after my daughter, Erica. It all comes down to love. Rhonda, thank you for the way that you show up. Thank you for our friendship. Thank you for holding space above support and challenge. Thank you for being a truth teller, a fire breather, for leading from the front to embody what modern leadership is. And I just want to thank you for

all that you've provided me personally and professionally. And I just thank you for this time. Back at you. Thank you for having me. Would you mind if I shared my understanding of you? I would appreciate that very much because you left me hanging in El Segundo when we had the purpose conversation. So have at it. Open to ideas. Open to experiences. So you are a risk taker in that way. Highly conscientious.

You care. You think about the global rhythm of the world experience and you care about people and doing quote unquote right. You do not agree. You're low on agreeableness. You think and discern and metabolize information and then you're going to speak the truth, which makes you a very interesting person. I'm open. I'm exploratory. I'm conscientious. I care. And I'm not going to agree. I'm not going to necessarily just agree because of power or principle. You're going to speak your truth. You have enough neuroticism inside of you to work hard, to be anxious just enough to be able to get to the edge, to explore. You have the ability to think globally and to get down into the narrowness of an idea, your attention is incredible.

You can hold details and stay locked in, and then you can pull up and get the big picture and lock back down to details, which is a rare skill for elite athletes. Your appreciation for risk is high, but it's calculated. The way that you coach people is positive and supportive, but I'm not sure you coach yourself that way. The most likely mistake that you would make if you were an athlete would be overanalyzing and maybe being critical of self, which is a tightening up. But you're aware of that. So you go to work to laugh, to have fun, to have space, to create. And so your awareness is so high that you've naturally created buoyancy and space in life, evidenced by your shoes, so that you don't take yourself so seriously.

Your first wound, if you will, is not being seen. And your remedy for that is kindness, to make dinners or lunches for your father to be able to spend time with him. So the deepest commodity that you value is time. It's not money. It's connection. To me, that feels like a modern leader and somebody that is going to show us the way. And so how did I do?

You did pretty well. What did I miss? The depth of negative self-talk. Keep going. This is the agreeableness that I love. What do you mean? You said if I was an elite athlete, I would overanalyze. I do that a lot.

I always think of how could I have done that better? Yeah. And people tell me I did a good job at something and I don't believe them. That's right. Yeah. So that's bigger. I minimized those two. You're saying you got them, but they're actually pretty big.

That's your inner work. I always think about how can I do something better? Yeah. The never-ending journey. You spot it. You got it. Me too. Rhonda, thank you so much.

Yes, thank you. Okay, this Modern Leadership series, like, it's proven to be something special. Emma, who's on the back of this? It's Judd Apatow? You are right. So next Monday, we're going to be back with the third installment of Modern Leadership.

But this Wednesday, we do indeed have the Hollywood legend himself, Judd Apatow. I mean, how good is he? Like, what was it like for you when you're listening? I mean, I was so excited even when he just arrived in the studio. It was like a great conversation that you guys had. And it just honestly, it had it all. It was brilliant. He really does have something special. And to be the creative force behind the 40-year-old virgin, Knocked Up, Anchorman, Superbad, just to name a few movies. And then, you know, we got to sit down for a really intimate conversation about what drives his storytelling,

his gift for spotting and nurturing talent, and also how emotional depth, not ego, has shaped his leadership approach. This one, this is one to make sure you tune in for. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the

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If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.