Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Inner Workings of Motivation, Optimism, and Leadership | AMA Vol. 17 w/ Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

We're thrilled to bring you the 17th volume of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything (AMA) series. This edition dives deep into the essence of motivation, leadership, and the art of creating a positive work environment, all while emphasizing the crucial importance of self-understanding and authenticity.Joining us - as always - is our insightful co-host, O'Neil Cespedes, ready to unravel another set of thought-provoking topics and questions… In today's conversation, we explore:The inner workings of motivation How to foster environments of growth through competence, autonomy, and relationships.The nuanced art of leadershipThe power of optimism and how to train it in the face of adversityNavigating the delicate balance between image and individualityFacing your own fakeness without shameAnd so much more…Our hope is that this dialogue is more than just an exchange of ideas; that it can create some unlocks, inspiration, and guideposts for those looking to lead with integrity, embrace their true selves, and lean into a life of exploring potential and flourishing._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Get real with what do you really believe is possible if you put together the right type of work, the right type of team, the right type of resources, what could happen? Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, I trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming, becoming who? Becoming your very best. So joining us as always is our insightful co-host,

O'Neill Cespedes. And we are ready. We're ready to unravel another set of really rich topics and profound questions that you've presented to us. So in today's conversation, we explore the inner workings of motivation, how to foster environments of growth that come from a place of competence, autonomy, and rich relationships. The nuanced art of leadership, the power that sits right behind optimism and how to train it in the face of adversity, navigating the delicate balance between image and individuality, and of course, so much more. And our hope here is that this dialogue is more than just an exchange of ideas, that

it can create unlocks for you, inspire you to become just a little bit more of who you're working on becoming, and maybe even provide some guideposts for you as you look to lead with integrity and embrace your true self and lean into a life of exploring your potential and ultimately flourishing. integrity and embrace your true self and lean into a life of exploring your potential and ultimately flourishing. So with that, let's dive right into volume 17 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. Dr. Mike, we're back again. I'm so stoked to be here with you. This is one of, I wouldn't say it's like a favorite, but I just relish the time that I get to do this with you. It feels really fun for me. And I just love the engagement with our community members

and how you and I go through some very complex ideas. And so I love this part of our podcast. So thank you for being here again. Thank you for having me. I feel the same way. I look forward to these days. I really do. And you've got something to celebrate.

Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I'll be launching a new podcast myself called Keep Me Different. How about it? Looking forward to that. Yeah. And so Keep Me Different, tell me more about it. Keep Me Different. Keep Me Different is geared towards that underrepresented group of, I like to call them black nerds, right? They're not athletes. They're not super cool people. They love anime, right? Their interests lie in things that you wouldn't think their interests would lie. So I think that group is so underrepresented. I'm part of that

group. So I'm going to give them a voice. And so is it going to be interview based? Are you, is it more scripted and you're going to tell some stories? Are you going to? At times it'll be interview based, but it's just going to be me and my co-hosts. So who's your co-host? His name is Garen Strong and Michelle Marquez. So two brilliant,

brilliant people that I'm looking so forward to working with. It's cool when you're like doing things with people that you respect and they bring an energy and like, it's really fun to be able to do that. So finding wherever podcasts, you can find it wherever podcasts. Yeah, it will be on iTunes, YouTube. So yeah, anywhere you can find podcasts, you'll find Keep Me Different. Why is that name? It's really cool.

You know, a friend of mine, we were working out in the gym and you know we crack jokes it's early in the morning we're you know busting each other up and I said something to him because he had some shoes on

he actually had some gosh I forgot they're popular shoes Hoka's before Hoka's became popular he had a pair of Hoka's on and I was like

what are you wearing why is this guy always coming to the gym dressed weird what are those and he was like man whatever man I pray God

keep me different. And when he said that, I was like, I love that. Yeah, that's cool. I love that. Cool, man. It's really fun. So I'm wishing you the best success. And hopefully our community goes and checks you out.

Keep me different. Keep me different. Thank you so much. Cool. So we've got a bunch of questions today. We do. We do. And I never know kind of how these are going to go so i'll just kind of give you a preamble is that i'm kind of in a mood oh okay let's do tell yeah and like there's a um there's just like

an energy where i i'm inspired by my wife to be a truth teller and like a fire breather. And so I'm wondering, I'm wondering how she lives her life that way. So I'm just wondering how this one comes out. I'm excited. I like you in a mood. So let's try to ride this wave. Sometimes I'm really contemplative and thoughtful. And This one feels a little bit more direct maybe. Oh, so we about to get a- I don't know. We'll see. Okay, okay. I'm hoping for that.

All right. So, hey, let's just start it off. This is a question from Melanie. Melanie says, in your experience working with teams, what are the most common misconception leaders have about motivating their teams? And how can understanding the true drivers of motivation lead to a better team performance and morale? So this question's about motivation. This is a little tricky actually, because most people have never studied motivation. And so when I hear the question, I go, well, how sophisticated is the person or the,

you know, the folks that I'm answering the question for, how sophisticated is their understanding of motivation? It's actually complicated. I'll just start at the basics and then add a couple layers and tell me how we're going here. So most people think about internal and external. So internal, meaning the stuff that happens inside of you, external, outside of you, obviously. And they think that those are kind of the two main levers to think about motivation. Motivation is actually, like I said, very complicated. And it's because it involves all of the history that a person's experienced, filtered down to a set of core beliefs, filtered through some sort of incentive a la reward that impacts their drive. And so we're talking about, this is why it's so complex. That's why it's like, I'm sorry,

complicated, not complex. The human is complex. What I just described is very complex, but motivation in of itself is complicated because we need to understand a lot to understand how to help somebody move closer to where you would hope they would move. There's no such thing as a motivation, non-motivation. That doesn't exist. We are always motivated towards something. It just might not be the thing that you want.

Meaning that if your child is playing video games on the couch all the time, you say, gosh, he's just not motivated. He's motivated for something. And so understanding what I just said, belief system drilled down all the way into like, how does this internal world of mine help reward or drive me toward a certain set of behaviors? That's what we're talking about. It's far more complicated than just internal and external. But let's break this up into four factors, and then I'll introduce a model. So four factors would be internal, external, as drivers, and then intrinsic, extrinsic, as rewards. So internal, external. Internal is when somebody

is internally driven, they are what we would call self-motivated. You don't need to, you know, make sure you set your alarm now. That's an external driver. When somebody outside of you is helping create conditions for you to get up and do something. Those that are internally driven, they within themselves have the wherewithal to get going. Okay. Internal and external. External speaks for itself. You need some sort of external stimulus to get you going. And those are drivers, intrinsic and extrinsic. So intrinsic is the reward system, same with extrinsic. So intrinsic reward systems are when you love the way it feels to unlock something, when you can put things together and you're like, oh, that's how this works. Or, oh my, I just really want to figure this thing out.

That's an internal, that's an intrinsic reward when you have it, that sensation of something coming together. And then the extrinsic rewards are exactly what you would imagine. Money, recognition, celebration, all that stuff that happens outside. So that would be a basic, like know those four levers. And we used to think that we wanted people to be internally driven and intrinsically motivated. The truth is a combination of all fours, really nice. The trap is when somebody is externally driven, so you need to help them get up and go and do something, and they're extrinsically rewarded.

Pay me. That is a combination that is really difficult to work with those people. You have to kind of tap their shoulder a lot and hold a carrot out in front of them to get them going. I don't like working with those folks. I'm not interested in it. I understand though that extrinsic rewards are meaningful and important and they are

important drivers. And I want to work with people that are like, most of the folks I work with are highly driven and are interested in rewards. Okay. So it's like on a scale of one to 10, they are the 10 out of 10s on all four. So you say, how does that work? Well, they structure their life to have the right external drivers, but they are equally internally driven.

So they don't need the external driver to take care of them, but they structure their life so it's not all resting on just their internal drivers. They get up, they're self-driven, they know what they're about, they know what is important to them, and they get it going. And they've got the external drivers to help support that when they're feeling a little tired. I am far more interested in people that err on the side of internal and intrinsic because it's like they're an adult. They know how to get going and they love that feeling of unlocking. It doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid. It doesn't mean that I don't want to get paid and I don't want the extrinsic rewards. It is understanding how to put those in the right place to help another

person become a version of themselves or become just a little bit better towards the things that you're agreeing on doing together. So as a leader, understand those four. When you can help a person understand the intrinsic rewards, like the love of figuring something out, the whole game gets a little bit easier. So when I'm looking to bring people on to take a role in a team or be a member of a sport team, I am looking for the internal intrinsic, but understand that the external extrinsic are also important. So I'll pause there because there's a lot happening and then I want to introduce a model that might be able to help.

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I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now

is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that

easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. Because when I think of the all four, like you said, the people that are just firing on all four cylinders, I think that's a small, small percentage, right? That's a gift. So if you have a person that you need to motivate, how do you get them to fire that off? Or would you even want to? Yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm probably the wrong person to ask this question for, because most of the people I work with like are on tilt. Like they're really getting after it.

Yeah. And I understand the question is more about how to lead people. First and foremost, understand the levers. And then those are just the levers. As a leader, a modern leader understands the application of good psychology. And the modern leader is not just using levers, but they're understanding what precedes behaviors, which is the thoughts and the uniqueness of that person. So if you want to help somebody be motivated, make sure that like the first rule of mastery, the book title that I did was basically I'm saying the first rule of health is to put down the poison that you're drinking every day. The first rule of mastery is to stop worrying about what other people think. It's like a poison. The first rule of motivation would be to understand

the person. Second rule would be to make sure that some of the things that might be clogging up their drive are not clogging it up. Like, is there something happening at a mood level? Is there a health issue that they're working with? Is it a small phase or window that they're in a grief window? Are there things happening there that would certainly make sense to shapeshift somebody's motivation? Okay, that's cool. Just understand the person. The next is there could be some biological stuff going on, hypothyroidism. So we're talking about, how do I help somebody be more motivated? Is it a thyroid issue? Is it a sleep issue? Is it a grief issue? Is it a trauma issue? We can't just kind of throw stuff around, like here's the four

levers, manipulate one of these four and you'll be good. Modern leadership is to really understand the person that is trusting you to guide them, trusting you that the horizon that you see is a worthwhile pursuit. And in doing that, help to unlock the goodness that rests dormant inside of them. And when you can do that as a leader, this child's play of internal, external, intrinsic, extrinsic is very simple. And there's an art to that part, which is like, if you know somebody is highly extrinsically motivated, you have to keep money out in front of them. As soon as they're paid, what happens to their motivation?

Now you don't have anywhere to like work from. That's why it's really dangerous, but it can be wonderful if, if the model, the financial model or economic model works properly. Like, look, when you do A, B, and C, there's a lot of money on the other side. And when you do D, E, and F, when you, there's even more money and X, Y, and Z, like there's a lot of like that can keep going. And you see that in like some of the financial services and you'll see that in some of the, the, the business structures that people are designed. But anyways, that's the thing. And then the model is self-determination theory, which is, I think one one of the under-celebrated, more powerful models in psychology.

And so it basically is talking about to help somebody work from the inside out, to have that intrinsic drive, is to make sure that three components are in place. The first is they understand, and maybe you recognize, their competence. So you put them in a power lane. You make sure that they understand how to treat themselves and talk to themselves where they're like, yeah, I'm actually pretty good at this thing. This makes sense. I can do that.

And they've got this way that they feel that sense of competence in their life. And when you can highlight it, highlight as much as you possibly can when somebody's crushing it. The best type of reinforcement for behavior is three very simple words. And I learned this from one of my colleagues, sports psychology colleagues for the United States Olympic Committee. That, yes, that. So when you can capture the good and you say that right there, that, that, that, that, yes, that, that those three words are like this reinforcing mechanism for people to know

what good looks like, to be able to take a moment and clock it. And then so they can figure out how to put their mind and body in that shape again. That, yes, that. Okay, cool. So competence is what we're talking about here, helping somebody feel competent. First and foremost, help them understand how to feel competent within themselves before you spend all this time and energy just pointing it out to them.

So it's dual, internal and external. Okay, the second is autonomy so when somebody feels that they're competent and they've got this sense of autonomy in their life that i choose i don't get whipped around by the external world i don't have to do what you say i've got a sense of autonomy on how i'm going to design and choose my life. That requires giving lots of space for people to make decisions. And where many leaders struggle in fostering autonomy is with that, they're not sure how to create accountability. So we want autonomy.

Humans crave that sense of autonomy. And sometimes we want to hide from accountability. So as a leader, if you can create that space for people to make the choices in their life, to have a sense of autonomy and to flex those choices and decisions and to feel the consequences of them, favorable or unfavorable, easy or difficult, that is a very powerful way for people to say, I want more. Let's go. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Because they're not being told what to do. They're working from the inside out to make the little micro bets or big bets in their life. So that's autonomy. And the last is relatedness. So when people have a sense of relationship with

themselves and other people, they tend to feel pretty good about being driven. And so competence, autonomy, and relationship is the model that I work from. If I'm trying to understand another person, I want to understand their sense of their competence. Do they have autonomy in their life? What's the quality of their relationships? And that's kind of like the, that's the broth for me. And then the levers are the four that we mentioned earlier. But all of the stuff beforehand, which is the uniqueness of the person, is what really drives motivation for a person.

Wow. Man. it's funny because this question melanie's asking about you know how to be a good motivator and leader and listening to you talk about it and correct me if i'm wrong here but it makes me think that you have to be a special individual to be a leader in every single way i like that mean, to do it really well, part of leadership certainly is having a sense of H3, horizon three, like what's over those bunch of hills. And to create such a compelling, alluring future state that we're working towards and having this sense of credibility. So not just like, yeah, over there, but like a grounded, like over there.

And then people are like, oh, I see that too. And have some sort of trust that they can feel that you don't know exactly how to get there, but that is over there. That is part of leadership as well. But I'm working from this benevolent, and I think you're feeling it too, like this very special way. You can lead in lots of ways. Bin Laden was a leader.

Mussolini was a leader. Hitler was a leader. The dark triad is a real way to lead, and the dark triad is made up of narcissism. It's really about them machiavellianism where there's always a secondary story and it's slippery and they're very charismatic they tend to be very alluring people to want to be around but it's again it's for them yeah and it's for their gain and it's slippery okay and? And then sociopathology, which is, you know, you get those three together. We know it's sociopathology.

They don't feel pain. And so when, I don't know, someone else is in a lot of pain, they tend to be like, I don't get it. Like, that's not a big deal because they don't feel pain themselves. So when you get those three personality traits together, they can be captivating as leadership. It does not mean it's good for the people.

It does not mean it's good for many other than maybe people close to that inner circle of theirs. But it really is all about those people. So you can lead, my point is you can lead in lots of ways. Benevolently, or not so much, the dark triad. So I wouldn't be as naive to say that you have to be a good person, but if you care about the condition of people and maybe even add the condition of the planet, you'll have a sense of what is really the broth that is driving people. And if you can take

time to understand that that and you have some sophistication of those four levers and at least a base model you'll be onto something you think a great leader understands the responsibility oh no i think most most leaders are just kind of they like the power of it yeah they know that you move up the org chart and you get paid more and you don't have to be told what to do. You get to kind of set the conditions a little bit. Wow. It's a little bit of a cynic approach.

I did not expect that answer. Wow. Yeah. What did you think? I thought you were going to be like, yes. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think that there's something very primal about wanting to, primal in humans, and that certainly would tickle that. No, no, no.

You don't really like this, do you? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I love this. Oh, you do? This was a great, yeah. I really did not expect that answer. Yeah, I wish, I do wish when I look at leaders and I'm like, oh yeah, look at this look at this group of

people yeah like benevolence amazing investment they care about me i think most people care about themselves more than others yeah it takes a lot of work to get past that um reflex for self survival the world is not set up for your safety or my safety. It's quite hostile. And so it is important to know how to take care of yourself. Wow. I want to stay on this question, but I don't know if we're actually. Yeah. Okay.

I got one more question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So why is it then? I'm asking you all these questions. This is an unfair question, but why is it then we put our lives in the hands of leaders? Why do we lean towards them?

Why do we look for them? Why do we search them out? It's probably we don't really trust ourselves. We're afraid to take the shot. And some people are better at what I just described. Some people have this ability somehow to see H3, horizon three. Some people have the ability that based on their unique upbringing, part of the part of leadership I didn't talk about is they know how to muster their internal

resources to get something done and to activate their external resources. And that's a skill. Not everybody has that skill. Some of us don't think H3 and some of us don't know how to get their external toys and tools and resources together and access their inner resources to get something done. So it takes practice and by the way um leadership is not something that is um like you don't say o'neill you are now a leader like you have to earn that in some kind of way and it tends to be by having the ability to muster resources have clarity of the future, and to have a sense of like energy to get some shit done. And that takes time to cultivate.

And so why don't we, why don't, why do we defer? Because maybe somebody is just further along, you know? And I do think though, it's, you know, Icarus when you're a little bit closer to the sun, you know? Yeah. You kind of get burned up a little bit too. So leadership does have more exposure, potentially more reward.

This was a great start to the show, Dr. Mike. Great start to the show. All right. So let's go on to our next question. This is from Valentina. In my company, we label a specific set of individuals as leaders. Oh, another leader question.

Okay. I'm actually one of them. In my experience, everyone leads or has the potential to lead in various capacities, depending on the context and their unique strengths. I don't buy the traditional narrative of leadership. It feels self-important. No. Wow. What is your view on the term leaders inside companies? That's cool. I mean, I think we talked a bit about it just now. Wow. What is your view on the term leaders inside companies?

That's cool. I mean, I think we talked a bit about it just now. Yeah. There's so many definitions of leadership. It's a little crazy making. And the way that I've thought about leadership for a long time is that the inner light shines so brightly that people are naturally attracted. And then like that doesn't quite hold up enough because there needs to be some direction to it. But when somebody, if you've been, and I'm curious if you have been around somebody that's got such a vibrant, such a zest for life.

And like, you just feel like I want to be close to that person. That's amazing, quote unquote, energy. There's an attraction that can come. Those are the leaders that I'm most interested in being around. And when you add an H3, they're able to see around some corners and over some horizons to say, over there is something very special worth fighting for, working for, getting after. That combination feels really important to me. And then I think great leaders also know how to be great followers. So knowing how to lead and follow is materially important. If somebody is presenting like they got it all together, like they know exactly how to do it, I start to go, whoa, I think I'm being sold something because there's no part of me that thinks I understand

how to get all of whatever done. And so as soon as someone, earlier in my life, I'd be like, oh yeah, okay, good. I'm glad they see it because I don't. And now I know that nobody really sees the whole thing here. I think one of the great leaders of our time, and he's controversial, Elon Musk. Like, look what he's doing. And he's off his rocker a little bit. I'd love to meet him. I would love to meet him. But I would also love to meet Da Vinci.

Michelangelo. Like, I don't know if I can put him in that category. It's a pretty big, you know, big space, but look what he's doing. He can't know exactly how it's all going to go. And so even if he's low on trust, which again, I don't know, he certainly has an H3 ability, and he certainly has a way to gather resources. And he's doing some really, horizontally,

he's doing some amazing things across many verticals. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

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and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Do you think all leaders have just insane, unmeasurable audacity? There's an unreasonableness to the leaders that are changing what we understand. And I've felt that in the back country in action sports and people that are doing things where their lives depend on it getting right being right and there is an unreasonableness to think that that horizon three image that you have that no one has ever seen before or accomplished is possible so I love the unreasonableness i want to be unreasonable i don't i don't want to be safe and reasonable all the time and that makes it a little dangerous

there's a phrase that one of my special operator friends special teams operator from i won't say what division um those that lead bleed yeah you know, and so I am afraid of that. Yeah. I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to bleed out, but when you, when you have such a compelling idea and I'm far less interested in ambition, the ambition for achievement as the, I am more interested in the ambition of being. And so that's what the H3 looks like for me. What is the state of being that we might be able to influence where people sweat the most?

And that's at work. I know you were thinking a dirty mat. It's not a dirty mat in this case. That's considered work. Yeah, it is for sure. But most people don't get on a clean mat, right? This is true. Talking about the martial arts, right?

So most people spend most of their time at work. I think, I think that we're in a position to fundamentally change the way people work by infusing the application of psychology in a simple way inside the rhythm of business. That's where we're pointing our noses at finding mastery. And I mean, think about like the millions of people that work every day in a eight to six, they take two hours off to, you know, go to the gym, be with their kids, eat dinner, whatever, and then pick up emails at the end of the night. Like it's a fundamental different way that we're working and it is requiring a fundamental different different set of skills to do it and i can't talk too much about our partners that we're um that we're moving in this direction with but we just might have a chance yeah and it's unreasonable to think that the majority of people

that are working in in any setting might have um a fertile place to train their mind during the rhythm of business and to do it in a very simple way. I mean, I'm being cryptic up just a bit here because I'm too early to talk about it, but I'm really excited about what the future of leadership could look like. You know, it's funny you say that because when you were mentioning certain things that you pay attention to and look at with an employee, you know, that they maybe have some physical ailments going on, what's stopping them from getting the work done and being motivated.

I'm a pretty progressive minded person. And when you were saying that, that old school mentality that's been drilled in my head was like, back in the day, you can fire you and get it done. You know, we're not looking at how physically, what's going on with you. I don't care, get this done.

You're getting paid for it. So it's so funny that, you know, that's ingrained in our minds still when we hear that and trying to find a new way to motivate people and a new way to work and a new way to lead. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because that, um, the job in a work setting, we are making a handshake. Usually it's invisible. And that handshake is I'm going to bet on you and you're going to bet on me together. We're going to get something done. And there's, there's resources available as long as we're getting it done.

But if I can't get it done or you can't get it done, then there's not a place for you here. And I'm not talking about if you can't get the numbers done in a week or two months or three months. There's usually some room here, but you've got to get the job done. Even if you've got to get the job done. Like that's even, even if you've got some struggles. Now the businesses that have the luxury of creating space for people that are struggling in A, B and C ways, I love that they have such resources that they can do that. That is the

humane, right thing to do. And I want want i want to build a company like that that can do that for people most companies are pretty lean and barely getting it done and so it really does require this is why entrepreneurs or leaders in small companies are so stressed because they're looking at the p l they're looking at like what noL. They're looking at like, what? You took 62 minutes for lunch or whatever. Because the P&Ls for most companies are pretty tight. Most companies go out of business pretty quickly. And so I just have a tremendous regard for companies that have been able to find the right culture

where people can be their very best. And it's not an always on, get it done every minute of your life, execute at the highest level. We all need to have high ground. The rapids of life are real. And we all need to know how to have a sense of high ground where we can dry off, get out of the rapids, get a little sun on our back and be like, okay, hold on. And companies that can do that can really afford to do that. That's a special type of company. I love those. This may be a really ridiculously tough question to ask you, but for that individual out there

listening and hearing this, right? And them saying to themselves, well, man, I want to work for a company that has resources that can, you know, assist me when I need the assistance. I don't want to work for a lead company that's going to trip that I took five extra seconds, you know, for my lunch. How do I find that? Because it seems to me like you have to be of a certain elk to be able to work for a company that has companies usually that have those resources are companies that are looking for highly qualified individuals. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's on. They've done something very special to have those resources.

Yeah. You know, like when you go work for a large corporation, most people struggle with the autonomy piece because it's matrixed. There's lots of decision makers, there's processes put in place, there's double checking. And so you have some luxury that we're talking about of maybe there's a 401k, maybe there's time off, maybe there's this, that, you know, and there's some really wonderful things that, that are taken care of. So there's trades. And I think about entrepreneurship is that you, you do need to have an appreciation for cold air on your skin. And that's just a little bit different. There's more responsibility. There's more autonomy. There's more electricity, more of an upside. You're part of something that tends to be

more purpose-based and feels special because you're right next to it and so there's there's just trade-offs and when you know yourself you know which environments feel better for you or better for you i think that that's it most of these questions that you and i wrestle with will start with work from the inside out. You know, like know who you are and that gives you a chance to know somebody else. And that's so crazy you just said that because as you were talking, I was thinking to myself,

and when I was young and I would, I'm not gonna say any company's names, I love all companies, and I would get a job at a certain company that's, you know, and I'd get interviewed by that manager or assistant manager. I knew immediately like, he gonna be a problem or she gonna be a problem for me, right?

And 10 times out of 10, they were that problem for me. But actually, you know. So that speaks to your intuition. Well, no, it speaks to actually my problem because you said you have to know yourself and know who you are and know what's the right fit for you, right? And not knowing that and going in and saying

you work for Burger World. Couldn't be a king in there right couldn't be a king I'll politically correct my burger world oh my god

yeah you get just what I'm saying you know what Burger King hasn't you're right that that hasn't been cancelled has it

no Burger Queen yeah Burger Queen Burger World Burger Prince Burger Prince. Burger Prince, Princess. It's so good. Oh my God.

How do you manage the cancel culture? Does that impact your life at all? I like to say that it doesn't, but I think there's a small percentage of it that does. I was hoping you were saying not at all, because I see you as like this free spirit. It's just like- This just recently happened.

Let me tell you. This is a great question. This just recently happened. Before I was a free spirit, like, I'm going to do what the fuck I want to do. I'm going to kneel. I'm going to kneel. It doesn't sound free.

It sounds very angry. Yeah, okay, good. Angrily free. Angrily get the freedom. Okay, yeah, good. Two are mutually- Angrily free. Okay, yeah, good. Angrily free. But someone said to me, my mom used to say this to me all the time,

and I completely forgot it, and then someone else said it to me and just brought it right back to the front of my head. My mom used to say, you have to kiss ass before you can kick it all the time. And, you know, I left that old saying behind and just became angrily free O'Neal. Like I'll do what I want to do. But someone said, if they see you coming, right.

Let's just say cancel culture is that let's just say, I speak my mind. I say what I want to say and I do what I want to do, but there's certain things I want to get done. There's certain things that I want to implement. I've already showed my cards. I already showed my hand. And when I show that,

then here comes cancel culture or whatever powers that be. They can put a ceiling over my head and stop me from getting to the level that I wanna get to, as opposed to, okay, I'm going to acknowledge this cancel culture or whatever this thing is. I'm gonna know that it's an entity that can stop me from getting to my bottom line and getting things done.

So I have to respect it now, right? Because I want to get things done. So I no longer look at it like, oh man, I can't do it my way. I'm going to do it this way. Now I look at it like, okay, I'm going to do this because it's going to afford me the ability to do bigger things that I want to do. And now that I've applied that to my life and to my work, now I think about all the people that are in powerful positions that I've looked at in the past and that I've judged harshly and said, man, you got a voice.

How come you're not speaking up? How can you have a voice and let all these things? I don't know what they're doing. For all I know, they could be amassing and attaining all this ability and power and whatnot to make a change. They could be making changes. They could be like Bruce Wayne, right? No one knew Bruce Wayne was Batman. But he was out there swinging around, busting up criminals and stuff like that, right?

That's cool. So I'm trying to get my Bruce Wayne on. So you want to be covert? I want to be covert. But the problem is one thing. I just told the world that I'm trying to get my Bruce Wayne on. So you want to be covert. I want to be covert, but the problem is one thing. I just told the world that I'm covert. I am Bruce Wayne. I guess I've messed that up.

Very fun sweater. You in sweaters? It's so good. Yeah, you know, this was made for me specially. I'm so happy about that. This was specially made for you? Yeah, yeah. It's a Hana Furka sweater.

What does that mean oh it's a hana furka is an actual woman that makes these uh sweaters that just go over your hands and you know like i love anime so i want her to make me a sweater like awesome yeah right it's amazing where do where do we support her um is this like a big big house label or is no no this is a small independent label, Hana Furka out of Seattle. She's amazing. Furka spelled? F-U-R-C-A. F-U-R-C-A.

F-U-R-C-A. Did I spell that right? Hana Furka. Yeah, she's amazing. And she made it exactly to my specification. She cropped the waist. I'm going to wear this every day. I'm not even kidding.

It's taking the place of my Cookie Monster sweater. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah. I can get you one too. Hana Furka. Yeah, I'll get you a Hana Furka. No, no, I was saying it correctly? No, no, I'm saying, I just laugh

because I'd love to see you in one. Oh, that was laughter of seeing me in a sweater. No, no, I wasn't laughing at you. No, you just did. I was laughing with you. It's a difference. I'm not going to get sucked in. I'm not going to get sucked in. I love this.

I love this fiery Dr. Mark. All right, let's go to the next question. By the way, I do love sweaters. Do you? Yeah, I really appreciate them. So when I do comment on them, I like sweater spirit. Do you want a sweater?

Yeah, maybe we're going to. Okay. Yeah, we're going to have to talk to him. I'm going to make that happen for you. Okay'm looking i'm gonna take this out of my personal projects you you you just said this so you have to have a sweater now i think if you were to go into my closet um there'd be like there's one item right now that's not blue black or gray it's kind of sad it's a brown it's like it was just given to me it's it's one brown hoodie my wife and i was like brown kind of pale for me. It's one brown hoodie. My wife, and I was like, brown?

Kind of pale for brown. And she's like, Mike, everything is blue, black, or gray. It's time. Yeah, it's time to change it up. I see you as like a brown and orange type of guy. No, no. No? Blue, black, or, I have a uniform.

It's blue, black, or gray. You know what? I might even knock that because I like uniforms. So yeah, I respect that. So maybe a blue, black, or gray gray sweater or all three mixed together i did a speaking tour it was um it was like 56 keynotes in a year it was ridiculous like it was it was not healthy and i had six sweaters all the same sweaters six of them were blue same cut six of them were black, same cut.

So I wouldn't have to think. I had the same type of jeans. So I would just, whichever ones were clean, those are the ones, and I would just pack the same. So I would not have to think about it at all. Okay, you know what? Listen, and I'm not just saying this. I agree with you.

You don't look like you agree. Like every time I see you, you're extravagantly well put together, like in a wonderfully flamboyant colorful way that i i am there's some jealousy that's happening first of all thank you i appreciate that yes uh secondly i'm gonna be 100 honest with you and i'm not making this up this advice came to me from a good friend of mine who's considered he's a fashion icon his name is nick wooster you've seen him before he's a he's an icon he told me and i asked him questions because i was like i'm getting a chance to just pick his brain so i'm gonna ask him all sorts of questions and he was like listen a nice

classic white t-shirt and some nice trousers will just shut it down every day yeah and i love that is what i wear most of the time i wear dickies and then a in a crisp white vintage t-shirt and i wear that five days a week how much are t-shirts now i went i needed a white t-shirt the other day and i ordered one i was like you guys are kidding me like i'm not talking like what kind of t-shirts like a white t-shirt yeah like they're well like a t-'t like really expensive I was blown away. Like I don't where'd you go for a t-shirt? I don't want to say It wasn't for the loom. Oh Okay, I'm gonna tell you where I go. All right. I like swap meets. I like flea markets I love the flea markets in the LA obviously, you know the Rose Bowl

You can get nice vintage tees from the 70s from the 50 fifties. You can get- Oh, so you go vintage? I go vintage, yeah. Nothing touches my skin but vintage t-shirts. Oh my God. My skin's- I don't wear- All right, perfect. We go from like Horizon 3 leadership

to nothing touches my skin. A mixture of the two. I put on a vintage white t-shirt then I go into Horizon 3 leadership. Inspired by me. Yes, inspiring to me. Oh my God. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft,

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at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's

about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B dot com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. All right. The next question is by Jeannie Song. Jeannie says, what can be a way to turn grounded optimism into action? I understand we can train optimism as a way of thinking and I like the exercises. Yes. And which you suggested.

However, I feel that words based on grounded optimism may lose their strengths if they are no actions. What can be a way to help people to take their positive thinking into action? She's kind of pointing to right thought, right actions from the eight path fold from Buddhism. And, you know, right thought, right actions. When you have the right thoughts, I'll see if I can stitch this around to her. It's like the exercise of just pretending to have a right thought likely doesn't have the follow on right action. And so there is a difference. Like when you have the right thought and not right according to somebody else, but it is lined up towards a purpose, the actions follow. Optimism, let's go back to the kind of, let's break the question out apart a little bit. She was talking about an exercise, the power of comma. It was a way that we were training optimism. So optimism is this fundamental belief that

something good is going to take place. And that is a trainable skill. That is something that we develop. Or by default, I think more people are pessimistic, which is also a learned skill. Optimism and pessimism are the lenses through which you see your future. A fundamental belief it's going to work out or fundamental belief it's not going to work out. Again, they're learned. So the comma and is a way to train optimism at scale. So when you're speaking out loud to a team, let's bring it back to leadership, modern leadership, you say the very hard truth of something. You say the difficult condition that the company is in. Let's say that there's a reduction in force taking place,

like 5% reduction in force. And for whatever reason, your unique team is not being affected. So you would say something like, this is really hard. The company is going through a reduction of force, comma, and we're going to figure this out together.

So you're inserting an optimism tag. So you address the hardship or the thing that is difficult so that for one, you're speaking truth to what is actually a condition and you're letting everyone else know that you see it. You're not up in the clouds in some positivity land. And then comma, insert optimism tag. So that type of mechanism to use your thoughts and your language is really an important way to train optimism at scale. I think it's an important way to think about training optimism at scale. Now, the question is about how do you get it to right action? The whole purpose of thoughts for the most part are to influence both emotions and behaviors. So the way that cognitive behavioral training tends to think about things is that we've got thoughts and we've got behaviors and we've got emotions. And they all work in a harmony, if you will.

The way that most of us would appreciate the simplicity of the interaction of those three is that thoughts tend to trigger emotions. Emotions can trigger thoughts. I'm pointing to Antonio Damasio's work at USC. But let's just go thoughts thoughts um trigger emotions and thoughts and emotions together trigger behaviors or influence behaviors so for the most part when you have the quote-unquote right thoughts there's going to be some emotional component to it at some level whether you're aware or not and the together

of those two do influence behavior so i'm getting down into the weeds a little bit. And if we make it really simple, it's right thoughts create right actions. And most right thoughts are not pessimistic. They are optimistic. And so I'd say keep practicing. And the optimistic thought, if it's kind of up in the clouds and ungrounded, it's not really going to create the actions that you want so make it real bring it down and then those types of thoughts do create some sort of inspiration

and inspiration from the latin means to breathe life into and spear too literally when you breathe life into something through a thought action takes place place. And so how about it? I don't know if that's complicated or unclear because that is a difficult question to wrestle with. So are you saying it can be a repetitive thing? For example, if my thoughts affect my emotions and my emotions and thoughts create this action and whatnot, let's say I'm in a situation and I don't believe what I'm saying, right?

I'm saying it to my team, I'm saying it to myself, but I don't believe it. Through being repetitive, can you find some- I don't buy it. Yeah. Do you? If you say, some people, I don't buy it. Do you buy it? I truly, to be honest with you,

I truly do not know because i've been in situations where i've tried to repeat it to myself because i'm like if i say it enough it'll become real yeah right if i said it but i just think i i can you and i we can bullshit other people we could say something to somebody else and it not be real but kind of play it and eventually they're gonna find out yeah right like because you can't keep that facade up you know for an enduring relationship but i know when i'm doing it to myself yes i i know i i don't know a way to out fake myself and so i know that that's i'm full of shit right now and so i don't think so i think that the fake it till you make it thing

feels really corrupt yeah um and that idea of say your affirmations i don't like that i that science isn't great there and please if somebody's got a counterpoint let me know but like saying it over and over again might create some rehearsal and some familiarity with the thought and it's more available because it's like closer to the surface but as soon as it's chin checked it kind of all falls apart yeah and so i like get down into the bedrock of it like what do you really believe about your future? Get down with that. Like get your arms around that. Get real with what do you really believe is possible?

If you put together the right type of work, the right type of team, the right type of resources, what could happen? And when you do that work and you can really find something, I don't know, the next phase feels like it's kind of like the, what is that game? The Plachinko? No, that's definitely not it. That's a casino. Yeah, that's where I was going.

Right. You know, like the price is right. Yeah. The Tumblr just kind of falls into place. Yeah. But I don't know. That analogy is not going to really hold up. But I was close.

No, I was close. You know know it's a that analogy is not going to really hold up but i was close no i was close you know it's so funny um you made me think of that when we just having a conversation about you can't fake yourself you can't fake it to yourself yeah i remember being in college and going to this church and um you know in church they speak in tongues and that's supposed to be evidence of the Holy Spirit and whatnot. And I never knew anything about that. You started speaking in tongues. It was gibberish, though, wasn't it? No, you didn't. I was looking around.

Everybody was like, oh, I'm subliminal. I was like, subliminal. And I was like, what the hell am I doing? Everyone else is doing it. And I did it for years. I'd be like, oh, God, I was so belittling it.

And one day I was like, man, the Holy Spirit isn't talking to you. That is hilarious. For years you said, yes. Oh, I love your determination.

Cause I was like, it's got, the Holy Spirit will start, start talking to me. Don't cancel me church people. There's my cancel culture effect right there. There it is. Yeah.

It is embarrassing. And I, I can say this now. It is truly embarrassing when you decide to look in the mirror and face your fakeness. It is embarrassing. It's equivalent to having a room full of people looking at you, laughing at you, saying, at least for me, that you were never being real with yourself and we saw through you. The day I stopped doing that i felt this immense um shame and i was like what was that why was i faking why was i doing it and sometimes i think i think i stuck with it for those years because i didn't want to i didn't want to face that shame

that's it oh i i i recognize it in me it's it's i'll bring it back to that to the book i just wrote the first world mastery stop worrying about what people think of you like the name faux pas fear people's opinions is kind of that driver i totally recognize it and there's something so attractive when somebody's thoughts words and actions line up yeah and i'll tell you a fun story. We ought to play the clip from Marshawn Lynch, one of the greatest running backs in the NFL, an absolute handful in every sense of the word. He is really authentic.

Marshawn is Marshawn, an N of one. I said, how do you do it? Maybe we play the clip, but in essence, he says, I stripped myself down in front of a mirror and I looked at myself. Who am I? And I had the conversation with myself, butt naked in front of the mirror. Who am I? And there's a little bit more tonality to it when he says it, but that idea of just doing the honest work, like who am I? What are my first principles? What are my beliefs? What are the right thoughts? What are the right actions? Do I fit in to a particular religion or am I not? What is right according to the way that I'm trying to make sense of the world right now? And look, most people are connected to a religion.

It's doing incredible good for a lot of people. I don't know if Marshawn is or not. I don't know that. And then I've got another Marshawn story is that, you know, I'll never tell stories from a locker room perspective, but we're on the sidelines. And it was a brutal game. It was like, I don't know what it's like to put pads and a helmet on

and have a 300-pounder trying to take my head off. But I have incredible respect for the athleticism, the agility, for the whole thing that's taking place out there. And it was a brutal game. Injuries happening. People are like, you could see it in our eyes. It's like, oh, yeah, this one's different. It was like, you could see it in our eyes. Like, oh yeah, it's, this one's different. It was like inches on inches on inches, you know? And it was just, again, I don't know another word

than brutal. So it was about 12 minutes to go in the fourth quarter and we were down by like five points. And so he walked by about six of us and he popped a handful of seeds in his mouth, sunflower seeds. And so he kind of moves them to one side of his mouth and he says, anyone want to go to the front with me? And he kind of just took another three, four steps and spit out a bunch of seeds. And I look around to the athletes that were next to me and they're like, hell yeah, like, let's go to the front. And so when somebody has fully embodied their thoughts, their words, and they're so when somebody has fully embodied their thoughts, their words, and they're going to back it up with their actions,

it is so electric to be around those folks. They're very, very powerful people when you can line up thoughts, words, and actions. And to do that, especially in environments that are hard to do it, those people are pretty rare. And that takes a lot of practice to have the right quote unquote thoughts. And that those thoughts don't have to be a tough athlete going into a brutal game. Those thoughts can be of kindness, compassion, empathy, savviness, whatever,

whatever kind of value that you're, you're, you're searching for, those types of thoughts, they just compel the right actions. So I think, well, Sean Lynch, I appreciate you. Yeah, that's a dope story. All right, our next question is from Linda. Image is so important in our culture. How do we balance the need to belong or look a certain way in being oneself? I totally want to defer to you.

Like I don't, how would you answer this? I automatically look at the group. I've always been counterculture because I know that, you know, the group never lasts that long. They're fads. I've always viewed them as fads. And I personally, I hope this doesn't sound cocky, but I personally haven't been proven wrong yet, right?

The cool people in junior high aren't the cool people in high school. The cool people in high school aren't the cool people in college and so forth and so on. So since none of them last long, I just never followed any group. I never joined a fraternity. I never hung with a clique of people. I just don't believe in that, right? So I think there's a special thing in being alone and venturing into things alone.

And I have found, I have found by doing that, people are drawn to you. And gosh, I hope this doesn't sound cocky, but I think you get your pick of the litter. You get to choose who you wanna be friends with. When? Like always? When you choose to be alone, when you choose to...

It's kind of like you have a group of friends and all of them are always talking. They're always talking. And you have one guy that never talks, right? One person that never talks. The minute that person opens their mouth, everyone is gonna shut up and listen to that person because I go wait a minute you you never talk you never do what we normally do what do you have to say even

if he's saying something that is just completely ridiculous right so I've practiced it I've experimented with it and it's always been that way for me which is the way just going at things by myself never just being an individual dressing a certain way walking a certain way talking a certain way sometimes to my detriment right because sometimes i remember you and i had a conversation about this sometimes you wear it on your sleeve and then that's your your calling card hey i'm gonna you guys are going left i'm gonna go right even though there's a cliff over there i'm gonna fall over that cliff yeah so sometimes i practice it to my detriment but for the part, I've found it's been very successful for me.

So I would think, and I've been told by a certain person that I don't have empathy for people that have a difficult time finding their individuality and being oneself. But to me, it's a no brainer because it's worked so many times. So I'm like, why aren't you doing this? Because it's worked. I'm telling you, it's a no-brainer because it's worked so many times. So I'm like, why aren't you doing this? Because it's worked.

I'm telling you, it works. And what is the it? Just choosing to do things a different way. Never going with the group. Finding yourself. Finding your voice. Listening to your voice. If that means sitting by yourself.

So you answered that question about identity more than image? So when you hear image, you think about identity. I think about identity. So you answered that question about identity more than image. Like, so when you hear image, you think about identity. I think about identity. There you go. I think about it immediately. Yeah.

What was the question again? It was images so important in our culture. How do we balance the need to belong or look a certain way in being oneself in being once? Yeah. When I think of image, I think of like what somebody else is viewing, which then that becomes the noisy part of the question.

And so if I'm interested in how somebody else is going to view me, then I'm already in a deleveraged, I'm already kind of in the world of noise. I'm trying to get to the signal. And so we, you know that phrase, you've heard it before, game recognizes game. And that's a statement that holds true in the space of mastery. Like the language of mastery is much more about skill than it is about image. And so that's where I was going is that I don't, I don't even know how to answer it. That's why I said, like, I defer to you on it because I'm so much more interested in skill and I will, I will just like, it's natural that you have a particular idea of what attractiveness looks like. There is some universality about attractiveness and we do like to be around attractive people

for whatever weird reasons in our genetic coding, the golden ratio. And so there is a kind of some universality. However, whatever you find to be attractive, you will want to be around those types of folks. And so if people know what you find to be attractive, they might create an image to be liked by you. That noise becomes temporary for the most part. And if you get right underneath

of it, you are pointing to identity, which I love. And then the other piece that I'll point to is skill. So I don't know, you look any way you kind of want, but if you've got a radical skill about you, that's pretty attractive to me. So's, yeah, that like, so identity, radical skill, know who you are, invest in refining a craft, whatever that is. And then that becomes so signal-based that the image, I don't know, it almost kind of takes care of itself. I agree 100%.

There's been countless times I've met people, gosh, I'm gonna out myself when I say this, that I've met people, I'm like, oh man, you look a certain type of way. And then I discovered the skill they have, it completely changes my image of them. And I'm like, wow. It is like, there's something wonderful about like lovingly so like when you

watch somebody do something and let's say that you physically in physical form you find it to be unattractive or repulsive or ugly or whatever criticalness there and but when you see them in their thing doing it and you go oh my god that is that is amazing that's why i love the show the voice the the tv show the voice and so everyone's got their back turned and um all you hear is the art yeah and then so you've got these highly tuned uh listeners the the judges if you will they're highly tuned and they're listening for just a certain type of break or a certain type of run and they go and they turn around and then they get to see the image yeah that is i'm telling you that's how i want to design my life but i i'm a visual creature as well yeah and so for me i want to be more invested in identity and skill as opposed to image all that being said is like we all have

something we're portraying. Dr. Mike, I gotta say this, man. I like this version of you. Oh, you do? I like this. This was great. This was great. I know I may sound redundant, but man, I look forward to these days.

Ditto. I do, yeah. Ditto. Thank you. I gotta go get a sweater now. I would like to get a sweater. I got you on the, on the forker joint. I got you. Yeah. We'll put,

let's put a link in. Cause, um, it's fun to support people that are awesome. Of the arts. Awesome. So put a link in there. She will greatly appreciate that.

Yeah. Cool. Appreciate you. Appreciate you as well. All right. Take care. Take care. All right.

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