Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Journey from Loneliness to Luxury | Real Estate Mogul, Aaron Kirman

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Aaron Kirman, a prominent figure in the luxury real estate market for the past 20 years.Aaron is the President of the International Estates Division at Compass and founder, CEO and techpreneur of the eponymously named Aaron Kirman Group, which includes a team of nearly 100. With over $7 billion in luxury home sales, Aaron represents the finest estates across the globe and is sought after by the most discerning clients, including titans of industry, celebrities, royal families, major lending institutions and foreign investors.Aaron was ranked among the top five luxury real estate agents in the U.S. by the Wall Street Journal and is the star of TV's newest hit real estate show, Listing Impossible on CNBC.What makes this conversation so compelling isn’t necessarily Aaron’s status today, but the challenges he faced from day one - this conversation is about what it feels like to not fit in.Aaron discusses everything from overcoming dyslexia to hiding he was gay - and - the changes he needed to make to start living more authentically._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Now, this week's conversation is with Aaron Kerman. He is a prominent figure in the luxury real estate market, and he's been doing this work for the last 20 years. Aaron is the president of the international estates division at Compass and founder, CEO, and techpreneur of the company named Aaron Kerman Group, which includes a team of nearly 100. Now, with over 7 billion in luxury home sales sold, Aaron represents the finest estates across the globe. And he is sought after by some of the most discerning clients, including titans of industries, celebrities, royal families, major leading institutions, and foreign investors. And Aaron was ranked among the top five luxury real estate agents in the U.S. by the Wall Street Journal. And he is the star of the TV's newest hit real estate show, Listing Impossible.

You can find that on CNBC. What makes this conversation so compelling to me, it's not his status. It's not what he sold and how much he's done it. But it's the challenges that he faced from day one. In this conversation, it's about what it feels like to not fit in. I would hope that you understand what that feels like. And if not, you might have a really hard time with some compassion and empathy. But knowing that we all understand what it feels like to not fit in, this conversation

is really about him raising his hand to remind us, even the most successful people, we are facing something. All of us are working through something. And I love this conversation because he's talking about the places he's been and how hard and dark it's been. And he's still got these other metrics of success that are wild. I mean, not the financial, he's got other pieces of success or ways that he defines success about purpose and meaning and happiness and all of that good stuff. So we get into all of that. And then I just want to, I just want to put a pause here because I don't think we do, we don't do quite a deep dive into how he went from a sense of suffering and

aloneness to becoming extraordinary. So this is not a how, but so let me put a placeholder here that the how is not complicated. The how is to be really honest, to increase your awareness of the state that you're in, and then to be incredibly curious with what are the things that you can put in place to get better, to grow. And so it's that curiosity that leads the experiments that you can put in place to get better, to grow. And so it's that curiosity that leads the experiments that you'll run. And so I think of my life and I think of solutions that I create in my life a bit like a working laboratory. I do look for what science suggests, and then I need to fit out how to run a working laboratory, run an experiment, how that science fits in my life.

And so I'm just a placeholder here to encourage you to run experiments and keep being curious about how to get better. Okay. So I love this conversation for so many reasons, you know, and if we double click here, he talks about overcoming dyslexia, hiding that he was gay and the changes that he needed to start to make to live more authentically. And it's this authentic piece that runs right through this whole conversation. And I mean, I'm biased because it's the subtitle of the book I wrote. You know, it's included in living authentically.

It takes real work to live authentically. And it's a massive gift that you can give other people. Now with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Aaron Kerman. Aaron, how are you? I'm doing very well. Thank you so much for having me. Oh yeah, this is great. So I'm stoked to meet you because you have, well, you have a track record and a body of work of success. And I'm actually more interested in the adventure, the journey that you've lived. And so if we could just start kind of broad and then dial down to where there's some heat about your life and how you've organized your inner life and how you use your mind to excel. But if we start with a broad stroke, if you were to break up the chapters of your life,

what would you name them? How many chapters would there be? But what would you name the first chapter, second, third, whatever? I think the beginning chapter would probably be the struggle. My younger years were really, really hard on me. I had dyslexia. I couldn't read. I couldn't write. I couldn't talk. I had a really bad speech impediment. So I feel like young years were hard on my soul, actually. And then as I started to get older, it started to get better and better. And so then it would be the discovery, you know, figuring out who we are and how I got, you know, figuring out who I am.

And then growth, growth patterns and like, you know, all the things that I learned to get to where I got to. And today it's like continued growth, riding the wave and foresight to the future. So you're going to see that there's been a lot of lows in my life, a lot of highs in my life, and a lot in the middle that just kind of caught me to where I am today. There we go. All right. So not many people start their first

chapter with the struggle. So yeah, let's take a pause there. Speech impediments are, I don't have one. And I actually have some sort of stammer sometimes, but I wouldn't classify it in anything. But I notice it sometimes. But I'm not trying to compare my condition with yours i'm just saying like i i have a appreciation from a distance of just how restricting that can be yeah you know i don't i don't know a better word but it was horrible um so i couldn't say the letter r that was was where it just couldn't, I don't know how to sound like I used to sound when I was a kid because I'm so trained not to. But I couldn't say R and my name had two R's, Aaron Kerman.

And I remember growing up every, in elementary school, the first thing teachers asked everybody day one is introduce yourself. And I couldn't say my own name. And for five years in a row, the class would laugh because the teacher didn't understand my name. I didn't know how to say my name. And it just led to this awful first day of school over and over and over again.

And it was really hard. And then on top of that, I remember always being called out to go to speech therapy. So I would lose a couple hours of class a week because I had to really work on simple talking. And that was hard. That was hard. That was hard. And then I had severe dyslexia on top of that. So I really, in my younger years, couldn't read and couldn't write. And so that was also really difficult because I couldn't pass tests when I was a young guy. And I remember starting this trajectory of having to cheat in second, third and fourth grade. And so when you combine it all together, and then I also knew I was gay at a very young age, you know, I also had sexual identity issues. You start to combine all of those and you end up with what was looking back like hard,

just a hard, hard, hard way to grow up. Okay. I mean mean it'd be much easier if maybe your family said let's move to boston because they don't use ours either i i wish that had been the case so where where did you grow up so i grew up uh in the suburbs of los angeles in the san fernando valley um my mom was a school, my dad was in trucking. Very, very, very middle to lower class family. Didn't come from the world that I am blessed to live in today. But it was such a blessing for me

that my mom was a school teacher because without her, I would have nothing like she, like we spent probably five hours after school reading, writing, studying. So school would end at three, you know, two 30 and we were working from four to nine every night to get me up to speed. Wow. Okay. So you had an internal resource that was incredibly meaningful in your home you know okay so loving family loving i'm sorry loving family absolutely okay was it absolutely was it loving unconditional love or was it like uh love with a dull stick in your back you know like you need no it was okay it was unconditional love from both my mom

and my dad um i think the difference was my mom it's funny because as we age and as life grows life changes right but at the time my mom was my rock and my dad when i was young was always loving unconditional love gave me love but at at the time, I didn't identify with him the way I identified with my mom. And so we just had a little bit of separation of church and state, even though both were unconditionally loving. Okay. Did mom and dad, is their marriage intact? No. Growing up, was it intact? No. I would say that they struggled in their marriage. I think that they had a hard time. I think that they were together for many years, probably because of us. And it wasn't until we got older that they decided to separate and go on their own

way. Okay. All right. Good. We're shaping it up here. You use the word suffering. You didn't say early years was hard did everything they could. I was lonely because I didn't know where I belonged. I couldn't talk while I couldn't read. I couldn't write. I didn't have friends. I didn't know where I fit in. There were amazingly happy moments as well. Like I had, I remember riding my bike and loving riding bikes. I remember certain elements of my childhood traveling with my family on, they had a camper and we would go on road trips. I love that. I mean, those were always happy moments. It was, but it was, to relate to people, not knowing how to relate to kids my age. And I felt like very much of an outsider growing up. Okay. Can you take me back to first day of school and you're sitting there, you know, your name's coming around. Can you take me back to that

moment? I'd love to just get your take on what your resources there, how you process that. And then we'll fast forward to something related to it in a minute. Imagine knowing that you're about to see a train wreck and not being able to stop it. That's how I felt. Like, that's how I felt. Like, I knew I couldn't say my name correctly. I knew the class would laugh. I knew that it was coming. I would sweat. I would be embarrassed before it started, which made it even worse. Because had I been able to, at the time, really try to focus, maybe I could have got through, but I knew it was a mess. So when you're

nervous, when you're uncomfortable, when you're freaked out about something, it only makes it worse. And all of that just compiled with knowing that I was going to come, came. And it wasn't probably until the fourth or fifth grade that I was able to overcome that name obstacle and and and and move on but it was really it was a struggle I hated that first day and ever since then honestly from first grade to even the last year of college school was not my thing I did not like school I did excel in school I uh I I struggled to identify with people in school and school itself. Like it just, it wasn't, it wasn't my game. Okay. So early experience in some sort of semi-frequent experience, certainly the first day was hopeless, helpless.

That was kind of the hopeless, helpless, right? Like it's coming and there's nothing I can do and there's nothing I can really do to change it was the response. And loneliness too. Like I remember like going out on the school log yard and like, I think that this has to, I mean, not to get too into, you know, this audience isn't necessarily about sexuality,

but the gay thing played a role in identification of, I didn't know where I stood with people. And so it just led to further insecurity. I wasn't like the most. Yeah. Walk me through that. When you looked at your friends, most of them, I've learned this from my aunt who's also gay.

And so most of her friends were not gay in grade school. Yeah. Right. And so when you looked at most of your friends, your, your gender, how did you, how did you, like, what was the conversation? Because there's something here that I want to tap into alone, lonely, helpless, hopeless. There's that suffering. There's the hiding, the restriction, the overwhelmed body sensation that something's about to happen. And then you go out into the open spaces and there's still like a dislocation.

So I want to know, like how, I'm trying to get a sense of how you're using that to be able to later become, you know, a paragon in your field. So how did you deal with the sexuality piece looking out and you didn't have necessarily a model on the playground to work from? I didn't deal with it. I didn't know. I mean, listen, I'm 43 years old, right? That was a different era. Today's moment is so different than we are today. And I see children that are very vocal about who they are and what they think. And I love watching that. But my time wasn't that.

We didn't have that. And so I didn't know how to deal with it. It wasn't that discussed at the time. I remember there was potential conversations in my family that I could be gay. I think my grandfather called it out. I think he used a horribly, I gotta rest this. Well, he's an amazing man, but he used this term light and light Linda loafers, which was from like the eighties. I think, I don't know that term. Um, you know, it just was a different time.

And so at that time I had to deal with it myself. I not not dealing with it. And I'm sort of just letting life evolve and growing, growing with the moment. And I did everything I could when I was young to just try to fit in so that I could survive so that I can grow so that I can get to where I got to. The funny part is, looking back, I don't know if I would be where I am today if I didn't have that struggle back then. Because I always tell people, I'm not like the smartest guy. I'm not the most analytical. I'm not going to be the best looking. But what really helped me get to where I am today is because I had that loneliness and that fear and that anxiety and that lack of authenticity, what really became a skill set of mine is mastering the human connection. And without that mastery that I did

have today, I wouldn't be where I am. But had I had mastered it as a child, the study of the human being and the good and the bad and the ugly and the wonderful may not have been there. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately

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Now you're talking. So from pain to some sort of a forcing function, suffering and pain to a forcing function to say, I need to connect. And because you're terrified in some cases of others dislocated from the social norms because of your sexual preference and an interest and then saying how do you get how do you jump that leap to say i need to connect with people like how did that leap how did that leap? How did that happen? You know, it happened later in life. How old were you? I was about 18, 18 or 19, maybe 17. And two things happened. I was still sort of like, I remember I was in college study abroad, and I had all these friends and we were in Madrid,

and Madrid was so much fun and we'd go out all night and different life, different age. And I remember I would ditch my friends every night to go explore life on, you know, gay life. And we went on this trip to Paris and Amsterdam and Europe and I went with my friends at the time and I would ditch them every night. And I remember towards the end of the trip, they said, is there something you need to tell me? And I said, no. And I left that European getaway with zero friends,

like zero friends, one friend actually, which we could get into later. Okay, hold on, I want to pause you there because I want to go to why you lost friends, I can imagine. But that moment that one of your friends, was it like that cornered you or was it a one-on-one intimate kind of safe space that you chose otherwise? Walk me through that moment.

Yeah, no, I think it honestly was them trying to reach out to me saying, what's up? Because we'll support you. But I was too young and insecure to take the bait, right? So instead of doing what, you know, somebody more confident would have done, I said, I don't know what you're talking about and I got all defensive and I remember traveling back, I think I was in Paris and I remember I had to get myself back to Madrid by train by myself. I'll never forget that moment. And I'm not good with like trains and stuff. I mean, my dyslexia kicks in. And I remember going, how am I going to get back to Madrid? And it was like a life-changing moment. And I don't even remember the names of those people anymore. I wish I did actually, but because that's the reason I was thinking about it the

other day, but I, I, it was, it was a changing moment in my life because I remember thinking to myself, authenticity is so key. And had I had been authentic at that moment in time, at that moment, that trip probably would have been different. But because I didn't, that lack of authenticity made me friendless, figuring out how to navigate the world for three months by myself. And, and like, it was a really great learning lesson. Because I didn't like to be alone. And I didn't like the loneliness that came from that moment. And so it started me on a trajectory of authenticity without even realizing. Why do people care so much about the opinions of others?

So it's funny, as you get older and more successful, you don't, right? Like today, like me, don't like me. I don't care. I'm going to be me and me is me, right? And I appreciate that. When you are young and when you are growing up, we're a herd of people. We're human beings. We're feelings. We're emotions. We're study. We study. And so I think that caring about what other people think about you is just a very natural human instinct. And if you're not confident, strong enough to be able to build yourself or have your family build you in the right ways, or if there's disabilities or issues getting in the way, you're going to be even more careful to worry about what other people think about you. And so one of the missions that I teach, and I hope that if I leave anyone with

one piece of information as a leader, I say authenticity is the most important part of a human being and be who you are, whoever you are, whether it's good or bad. Like, I mean, honestly, obviously we want everyone to be good and do all the right things, but you know, what, what, what people think of themselves as bad could be the best quality of themselves. And so I think that we need to be less judgmental of ourselves and more, I always say, observe, be a non-biased observer of your own life. Because what you might think is bad may be your future. You sound like you've done some inner work. It sounds like you've investigated, whether it's from good old psychology or some sort of other training, but I'm hearing it. And have you done the inner work?

I had to do the inner work. Yes, I did it, but I had no choice, but to do the inner work. Like my level of success came from doing the inner work. And it didn't come overnight. Like it wasn't like 20, 20 years old and all of a sudden like this master of like sales and psychology, like that, that, that, that little boy in me existed for so many years. I remember I was, I always thought everyone did it bigger and better than me. Like I would look at them and go, Oh my God, they're bigger and

better than me. They must be smarter than me, but it must be brighter than me, but it must have some. And so I would lie in my early career. I would lie, straight up lie. And I remember one day this assistant said, you're the biggest liar. I quit and I hate you. And she doesn't even know she had this impact on my life, but she had this huge impact in my life because it made me realize that I was lying. I wasn't secure. And I had a life coach at the time and I told the life coach the story and she said, so stop lying. Be, change your trajectory and be the most authentic you can be. And I said, fine. And from that moment, and you know, I'm in sales, right? Sales isn't always, you know, being as authentic as you can be all the time can also get you nowhere in our business too. There's a lot, I mean, let's just be honest, right? But I learned the line of

how to be authentic and real and honest, but also be able to say why I'm being that way. And the reason I'm being that way is because I'm trying to help somebody sell a house, right? Or help somebody buy a house. And so I'm going to tell you what you want to hear whether you like it or not because that's the authentic person that i choose to be but it took me i mean years in life to get there like and it wasn't until i got there that i got uber successful i'm not saying that i'm not successful, but that my career trajectory got to where it is. So at what, okay. I hear the suffering, the isolation, the dislocation, a moment in Europe where you're like, what am I doing? Another moment where someone said, yeah, you're still lying. Basically didn't say it like that, but you're still lying. You had some, you've done, you were doing, you valued and we're doing the inner work. And how deep did you go? Was it meditation, whether it's just going for a walk, whether it's watching, I can't remember the name. It's like these dog videos, the homeless dogs that

get rescued. It's called the Dodo, I think. I can't remember the name. I can kind of breathe. Sometimes I have, it sounds so LA and cheesy, but sometimes I have spiritual help, healers, energy. I mean, I'll do, I'll do, I'll try anything once to see if it makes me feel better. And if it makes me feel better or if it gets me on track, I'll do it again and again and again. And, and, um, the money and time I spend on myself is, is, is, is, is, is a lot actually. Okay. And then do you have a spiritual framework or is it like a traditional religion or spiritual framework that sits outside of religion so i grew up jewish and i am jewish and i'm i'm proud of that background but it for me my my religion is doing the right thing like

i i'm a really big fan of doing the right thing and it's I'm a really big fan of doing the right thing. And it's, that's a really weird thing to say, because in life, there's never always the right thing. There's never always the right thing. Everybody has a view. Everybody has a view in line with their own personal infrastructure, right? But for me, what makes me feel good is knowing I did good, knowing that I did the right thing, knowing that that i was honest knowing that i made a move that helped somebody's life not that i'm all about giving because i'm i'm in business and i'm an entrepreneur and i obviously make money in doing so but that's what makes me feel good okay so we've hit on a couple core values, right? So honesty, authenticity, doing what's right. I think that's a mix maybe of those two, but maybe something else.

If it was a forcing function, we had to get it down to five core values that are helping shape how you live. What are those core values for you? Always protecting. I always do my best to protect myself. And by that, I mean, we all have things that we know aren't good for us. Like, you know, that eating pizza, this is a very minor thing, but like, if you know that eating pizza is just not good for your body, it's okay to eat pizza once in a while. But if you use pizza as a crutch, like, it's not good. And so even like, and this is something I still struggle with. Like if I have a bad day, I'll eat really bad when I go home. Like I just will. I'll get a pizza, I'll get pasta and I will eat carbs

because that is my comfort. But I know my body doesn't, it just doesn't help my body i know i don't feel good the next day are you talking about a slice or six slices no i'll eat no i'll eat the whole slice plus ice cream plus pasta like you know i'll do it all like and the next day my stomach will be in shambles i will be low energy because i know that that's just not what my body, my body needs clean food. I just know how I work. And, um, and so I always tell people like treat yourself really good, like treat yourself great. Like whatever you need to be good, be good because that's going to make you be good for your clients, for your business, for your wife, for your husband, for your kids, mom,

and dad. And so whatever you need to feel good about yourself and make sure. And I think it's a really important principle. And sometimes it sounds kind of selfish, but I think everyone should treat themselves really good first, because when you treat yourself great, you could treat everybody else around you amazing. But if you're not happy yourself, or you're in a dark spot, it's not going to go well, not going to go well for you. It's not going to go well for your family. It's not going to go for your world, for your business. And I think that that identity people from what I've observed,

people struggle with that. Like people struggle with putting themselves first, but I tell people put yourself first. It's one of the growing up in the ocean. It's one of the core tenants for lifeguarding is that you actually have to take care of yourself first it's one of the growing up in the ocean it's one of the core tenets for lifeguarding is that you actually have to take care of yourself first if you're going to go out and rescue somebody so much so that there's specific training that the guards go through is that let's say that we're getting washed into a pylon with lots of barnacles and the surf is pretty

heavy and you're rescuing somebody and they start flailing is um one you've got to push yourself away knowing that like that could be catastrophic second is if you're heading into a heavy situation you have to put their body in between the pylon and you because if you get incapacitated in some way now we got two bodies out there and so yeah so to your point well taken i don't know why i just took a weird turn there but to your point well taken yeah and by the way when i when when when my assistant like you know we'll have weeks where my my my calendar could be back to back to back to back if i let it be like that servicing other people all day every day honestly i'm blessed forever like it just i mean knock on wood if if if i'm lucky right but the

thing is i get mad if i don't have time to take care of myself first my day i tell my assistant i'm i'm not liking the schedule this is not how i envisioned my life like i want to make sure that i can be creative smart intuitive i could grow myself because if you're running me around and i'm in a hamster wheel i can't get to my net because people look at me and they're like, how did I get to where I got to? And I'm like, I'm just starting. I'm not even close to where I want to be. Okay. So I didn't get all the values, but let's come back to those in a minute because I want to pull on the thread here for a moment and really see if we can unpack how you think about success and not the 99 1999 version you know like but what what does success mean to you success has nothing to no that's not true hard question um because you didn't want to say money but it's

true right like there's some sort of financial i was gonna i was i was i was i was gonna say success has nothing to do with money but that's not true because there is a key to money that that that money comes so my experience has been money comes with success right um when you're successful money comes to you naturally and freely so for me but funny enough i've never really worked for money. That hasn't been my driving source. What has been my driving source are other things like the feeling I get when I'm good, the feeling I get when I close a deal, the feeling I get when I closed a deal, I was honest, sincere, and transparent, and I did all the right things. To a certain extent, I hate to say it, but even the notoriety that you get from

all of those things, and then to be able to be a leader, like all of these things lead to success. And for me, ultimately, like, I think success to a certain degree is also freedom, right? Because you have the freedom of choice, you have the freedom to direct your ship where you want to go and how you want to grow. And if you look at entrepreneurs, you'll see that they're doing these amazing things all the time and the world is moving so fast. And when you're successful, you have the right to be able to, you have the ability to be able to move with the world at the pace the world is moving to continue to breed that success. And so, you know, today, I would say if you had to do it in a nutshell, success is really being very knowledgeable, educated,

following right and wrong leadership, and not necessarily worrying about the outcome, because the outcome will come based on your mood, based on your mood, based on your mood. Yeah. Based on your mood. I mean, I have, I have a lot of people come to me and go, I want X. Like I have a lot, a lot of people, a hundred, hundreds of people are like, I want to have your money. I want to have your level of success. I want to. And, and, and I'm like, well, that's great.

But how, how are you going to get there? What, what's your plan? What's your process? What's, who are you? What's your identity? Because your identity is not me. And my identity is not you. And so just the items and the things and the variables of what made me me aren't going

to make you you. So we've got to dive deeper than that. You start with the big questions. Yeah. Yeah. And it frustrates it. I get frustrated that I get frustrated that people look at bank accounts or look at cars or look at houses or look at corner offices and go, oh, that's what I want.

Because that's not what they should want. It's a result of being successful and success will get you there. But there needs to be a passion. There needs to be a drive. There needs to be an interest. There needs to be an innate fascination with whatever somebody's doing to be able to get all those things. Okay. What is yours? What is your, well, let's go through them. Like, what is your passion? Where does your drive come from? And what is your ambition? And it's probably dual pronged or quad pronged, but let's start with passion and let's start with some ambition. And I want to double click and see if you're more purpose-driven or driven, how you work with that. But yeah, let's go passion first.

It's funny when you've done something for like 24 years, you sometimes got to sit, you sit back and you go, God, do I still like this? Like, is this my thing? And there's been so many times I'm like, no, no. Like I've, because when it comes to the deal, I know what's going to happen before it happens. Like I, I've done it, I've done the transactions. I've done $300 million house sales. I've done a million dollars. I like, I've, I've, I've done it. So for me, like what, what my passion now is, is it's teaching, it's leadership, it's growth. It's taking on things that I'm not good at and getting better. You know, being a real estate agent, what I was, estate agent, I'm great at being a real estate agent.

Was I good at being a leader to now I have 90 agents under me and a team of 11? No, I did not know how to do that. And when I started, we were failing. We were awful. I thought to myself, okay, well, I'm kind of tired of selling houses. What's my next gig, right? This was a couple of years ago. I thought, oh, let's do a TV show. So I pitched a TV show. I was horrible on TV. Like that was not what I was good at, like, but I ended up getting a show and I ended up getting decently good at it, Right. And so for me, what I'm passionate is, is evolving every day, right?

What I wanted yesterday, you know, I still want today, but what I wanted five years ago, the goal has changed. And now I have a much bigger picture vision of where we want to go. And the ideas of where my success is today and where I wanted to be in five years are totally different than from five years ago. And I think that with time we evolve into, you know, time, you know, either sets us back or sets us forward. And I always see, see the people that are the most successful, the ones moving forward going, where, where,

where do I want to be in five years? so for me i have a clear i do have a clear picture of where a picture where i'd like to be in five years and it's different than where i am today and is that picture financial or is that picture lifestyle is that picture interpersonal you know sense of whatever piece or i i like when you think of that picture, what are the big levers for you? So it's not necessarily financial. It's not necessarily financial, but what I would love to do is train the 90 that I hope to be 200 one day to be me, right?

To know how to sell $800 million a year in inventory. Because if I could train those people, I feel like I've just helped a lot of lives. I've helped a lot of people get rich and I could take a small portion of that money and not suffer financially, right? I think messaging on TV is super important. Like real estate is something that people love.

And every, I mean, I don't care who you are wealthy, poor from any place. Everybody ultimately wants to have a home to live in. Right. And, and, and, and in real estate, I've seen so many people make so much money and lose so much money. Right. And I feel like I would love to teach the lessons of the last 24 years of the wins and losses that I've seen other people make because it's really big. I mean, I've seen some of the richest people go poor and I've seen some of the, you know, people that really had nothing get super rich all through my industry and other industries, by the way, along the way.

And I feel like that versatility has turned me into a really good understanding of human nature, success, failure, and how to make sure you're not part of that failure. Right. And so, you know, it's been, it's been an amazing journey that I'm super grateful for. I'm super grateful for being able to see all of those human stories because with $7 billion worth of sales, what people don't realize is for every one of those transactions, there's a human being behind it that has a story. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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Let's start with that just a little bit, which is what are some of the things that you've learned yourself or otherwise that you're like, these are traps now? Yeah. I've learned greed is the worst thing in human nature because with greed you will lose. I've seen multimillionaires lose everything because they wanted to maximize profit instead of just get a profit. I remember there was a time when I had like $4 million worth of inventory and I made very little money that year. And I had the worst clients all greedy, all trying to get the top dollar, which they should be within reason, right? And I remember a guy lost two houses that were like, one was a $13 million house and

one was like a 16 over just trying to maximize profit when he could have made two or $3 million. And he literally ended up more or less homeless. No joke. Like this was a multimillionaire. And I thought to myself, my God, if he had only just listened to that advice, he could have had $6 million out the door and lived a nice life. That's still a lot of money. but he wanted the 12 million and i see characters like this all the time and i just um i learned that creed is not good and there's a win and and and and always try to focus on a win but never kind of focus on the mega one the mega one's luck and that happens one percent of the time let's not go for the luck let's go for the win that we can do and we can accomplish our goals without risking too much um i've learned money

is very complicated for human energy and i've seen really tight families break apart over money and it kills me every time it just makes me so sad like i saw it happen when i was young to my best friend actually my best friend sally like but but long story short like money you know every you know if there's a death in the family all of a sudden you have brothers and sisters and and and people fight over them over money and i i always say to people i'm like money as good as it is is an energy it's an energy money comes and money goes but let's focus on who we are as people let's focus on our families let's focus on our friends and if you do that the money will come to you never worry about money but i've seen that money is just this really weird trajectory and and

and and to be honest with you i had to work really hard on understanding like because I saw so many things with money go wrong, I think it almost started to affect me. And I literally had to train myself that money is actually good. Like, I know that sounds really bizarre, but intuitively I had to have somebody work with me and say, money is great. Money keeps us alive. Money feeds us. Money gives us our home, the power to do good. But there was a minute a couple of years ago where I forgot that minute. I had seen so many weird moments with money that it actually almost affected me in a bad way. Okay. Let's shift gears slightly and talk about the habits for success. So what are some of the daily habits and practices that you put in place

to lead this successful life, both from the inside out and from the outside in? I try to start my day the way I want to start my day. So I always try to meditate before I even look at my phone. I try to read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the LA Times before I even start my world. It inspires me. I love to like learn. Like I love to like read about people that are bigger than myself and like killing it in life or not, or losing actually.

But reading the paper every day gives me the sense of like stride. Like, oh my God, like things are happening. What's happening today and how can I apply it to my world? I try to go to the gym every morning before I work out. Not that I'm in the best shape,

but I try only because it makes me feel good. And when I start all of those things, I usually have great days. If I'm not having a good day, it depends how bad it is. But if it's really bad, I'll shut it down. Like I realized if I'm having an off energy day, I'm not going to do anybody any good. And I'll literally just go home. But that happens very, very, very rare. Usually I just try to, you know, take care of myself. But the funny thing is the older I, so I used to be a very big picture guy, right? Very, very big picture. And I still am. That's where my skillset lies. Like I know where I want to go I know I generally know how to operate to get there but all of the the stuff that you need to get there I was never that good at and the older I get the more I I realize that systems process

um goals like I know this sounds weird Like I always had the end destination, but like one day something happened a year ago that really helped me a lot. Um, you know, my boyfriend's in banking and he goes, Hey, what's your goal? I said, what do you mean? What's my goal? I sell houses when I sell houses. I don't, when I don't, then he goes, well, what's the team, what's your team goal? And I was like, you know, my business is weird. We don't know when we're going to sell houses or when we are not going to, because there's a lot, there's thousands of factors that can lead to a sale or not a sale. Right. And I always ran on, it's a little bit more random. And he was like, that's insane. You run a business and you don't have goals. He's like, that's the worst thing I've ever heard. And this literally just happened about a year and a half ago. that's all we've been dating for and so i said okay i'll take it and i said okay here's what i want to sell every month and here's what i want my team to sell every month and it was like life-changing because i had a a projected where we should be

every month where we're not going to be where our finances are going to be and i took control of a business that i thought was super random, that it turns out, is it really that random? Like it is random, right? But we can do our best to control the randomness. And so that was a really fun lesson I've learned. And now, of course, the goals keep going higher and higher and higher. But it was a very simple lesson that I had so much fun with. And, you know, some months we hit our goals and some months we don't, but you know, it's always a great gauge. I would say leadership is like, teamwork is like one of my life's missions. I started out as a solo guy selling houses.

And I thought that that was just the path. And I realized that like one of my life missions is teamwork. And so building a company and building a team and building a leadership and, and, and, and, and building agents and always partnering with somebody is, um, something that's been an amazing trajectory for me because I can't do it alone. And the, the more I have, the better people I have around, the better we all do. Um, that was a huge a huge lesson. Even like on a personal note, like, you know, you know, finding love and building a life and a relationship is something that's newer

to me that I'm learning to work through because I've just always spent so much time on my career. And so diversifying my passions is, is, is, is something that's a new lesson. But it's funny. I feel like I'm just learning all these things at the age of 43 that are so fun to learn and try to get down. And then this has led to this whole brain of mine on other things that I want to do, grow and be. And it's like now it like, I feel like I've

gotten unleashed through these minor lessons. So if we get granular on your meditation, how many minutes, what type of meditation are you practicing? And what is the, what's the challenge inside the meditations for you? So I don't know if the audience can tell, but I'm like ADD. I have the attention span of a twit. I literally, my brain is impossible to shut down. So meditation is not a natural skill set for me. And it's not easy for me to do it. Actually, it's like anything in my day, it's probably the hardest thing I do. You know, there's different forms of meditation for me. It's not always like

sit there and try to shut off your brain because sometimes I can't do that. Sometimes I can. I love Deepak Chopra's 21 Day Abundance course. I could listen to that every 21 days. Like I just feel like it encompasses so many lessons and so much about life and not just money and success, but love and abundance and how to grow. And it covers a lot for me. Some days meditation is just as simple as like reading things that inspire me or bring me back to like my human self, because sometimes anybody who's listening to this, who runs a business or his business knows that you can get day-to-day operationally, very involved in numbers and that and what's going on and where you are.

And sometimes, like I said, that website about dogs, I consider that a meditation because sometimes if I'm a little bit nervous, if I'm about to do a television show or my show or something, and I'm not feeling there, it brings back this human level of like humanity that's important for us. And so and sometimes it's prayer i mean the older i get i'm like i believe that there's more out there than just us right and sometimes we we need or at least i i'm not speaking for other people but at least i i want to be grateful for what i have where i am and like for me like of all of the meditations, the one thing that I always say is the most important is gratitude. Because if I'm living in gratitude for whatever it is I have at

that moment or don't have at the moment, or just being grateful, it's like abundance comes in. And so I just always have to remember, like, whether I had a good day or a bad day, I am like one of the luckiest people ever. And that gratefulness leads to happiness. Okay. And then it sounds like you've been practicing for a while. Is this a, um, 10, two minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, 30 minute, one hour? Like what is the daily duration? it's honestly a 12 to 15 minute thing at most okay um i try i try to do it in the morning and if i can um the one thing that i find very soothing it's just swimming so i i swim at night or i go in my jacuzzi at night, but it really settles my soul to be in the water. So I try to do the water at night before I go to bed. Okay.

So you got some bookends, you got some meditation, reading, fitness in the morning, something soothing, water for warm water for centuries has been a soothing mechanism. So yeah. By the way,

really good for me. Like it takes away all of, I can have a lot of natural anxiety and it takes it away. So what do you do for anxiety? I get meditation, exercise and water. What else do you do? It's funny enough. The easiest way for me to ease anxiety is to do something that sounds kind of weird. um if

i'm anxious about something right and it's out of my control if i could just take baby steps to know that i'm making i'm working towards my goal even if it's just the start it eases all anxiety for me what's stressing me out the science on that is really clear too. So you're right down the lane of like a best practice. So that's cool. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the easiest thing.

Like there's so many things out of our control. And if I feel like I'm out of control, then the anxiety just builds up. And if I am anxious, I'm not, I'm not my best. I'm not the best performer. I'm not my best self. I'm not my best. I'm not the best performer. I'm not my best self. I'm not the best leader. So as long as I'm taking the steps to be able to move forward,

it's enough relief for me to know that I'm doing everything I can. And I've learned that sometimes the best way to accomplish a goal is to release it to the universe. So take all the steps, do all the things we can do make all hopefully the right moves or some wrong moves if if that's you know our learning path and then

release and sometimes i've wanted things so bad i held on to them so bad i never got it like and so i realized that in order to get some of the stuff i wanted i just had to kind of set myself up put myself where i wanted to be put myself in where I thought was the right move, and then just release it and say, if it's meant to be, it's going to be. And if it's not, I got to let it go. And that's helped a lot too, actually. And then, you know, this is super concrete, two people on each side of the ledger, two people live, two people that are no longer with us that really inspire you. And if you want to pick one that's cool too but whoever comes up for the two alive that really inspire you um don't tell

him i said this but my boyfriend inspires me don't tell him no i won't tell uh he's a guy that grew up in venezuela in the favelas which are like the slums of v, single mom, had nothing growing up. He's not like the richest person in the world or the smartest, but you know, he supports his family. He got himself out of, out of a country that is in immense, having immense issues right now. Works in banking, bought himself properties in multiple different places.

And it's just your ordinary guy that came from nothing and built a life for himself that others would really want. You know what I mean? Both spiritually and financially and everything else. And that he inspires me because he came from so little. Like, I mean, I listened to my story, which is like, I had my own struggle, but it's different when you don't have like, you know, food and you know, you're living in a world of a lack of education. And that's a different game. Like all of our struggles are different.

He inspires me. I just sound super cheesy, but my mom inspires me. She's a school teacher and a principal, but like she made it like she's 72 and she like lives the life. She's like, lives the life. She didn't grow up wealthy, but she she like, um, lives life. She's like, lives a life. She didn't grow up wealthy, but she's like has this great pension. Like her biggest issue is like what she's going to do to entertain herself. And I know that sounds like selfish, but like,

I love that she's there and that she can live the way she wants to live. And, and, and, and somebody that was so humble has taught me so much. And so now I have this like multi-billion dollar thing happening, whether it's my sales or what I'm running. And like, she's the first person that I will go to for advice. And she's like a school teacher that helped me learn how to write, read and speak. And so I'm super grateful for those people. There's so many inspirational people. And it's so easy to say, you know, you know, you know, Bezos or, you know, this person or, you know, I've represented some and not him personally, but I represented some of the richest people in the world and some of the people that are the most iconic people in the world. And sometimes I learn from them and I'm like, wow, you're amazing. And sometimes I go, wow,

I'm surprised that you are where you are because you're different than I thought you would be. And so it's interesting to see the spectrum of, I don't know, I can't explain it. Just knowing some of the richest people and some of the most successful people and some of the most famous people. And as humans, you have the good, the richest people and some of the most successful people and some of the most famous people. And as humans, you have the good, the bad and the ugly.

And when you're doing transactions with them, you really learn who they are very quickly. And there's been times like some of my people that I, and I'm not going to mention names cause I can't, but there's people that some of my heroes that maybe I would have said, I really respect. I ended up working with and they were not the human being that I would have hoped they should be at that level. I get asked, you know, the question a

bunch because I've crossed many different disciplines, many different performative arts, sport, business arts, you know, what are the half percenters like? And oftentimes I'll say most of them, you wouldn't want to have over for dinner, you know, maybe once because it's kind of really interesting how they've, you know, how they organize their life, but not many more times than that. I don't want to sound jaded and I don't want to sound ungrateful and I don't want to sound like I'm tainted in any particular way, but it's like there's the level of narcissism and anxiety

and obsessiveness about their needs versus others is palpable often. And so- Yeah, although, I mean, I have a different experience. So for me, it's more like, I'll say honestly, 65 to 70, 30, meaning 70% good, 30% bad. I'm really lucky. Like some of the people that I've represented are the kindest, nicest, sweetest people. And you would never even know that they

are who they are. And, and, and, and, you know, they come over to my house or I go to theirs and we don't even talk about what you think we would talk about. They're so human, but then you have that 30% or 35% that are just awful. And I remember I had a billionaire that was going to buy like a $70 million house for me. He was so rude to my staff and I, and I called him a week later and I was about to make a $70 million transaction. And our transactions can be quick. Like they go quick. So I would have been done with this guy in 45 days and probably could have made a million buys. And I called him.

I said, man, this isn't going to work out. I just, I don't want to have, I don't want to have anything to do with you. You're not, you're not my, my, my, my, my people. You're not my person. Like I, I don't need your money. I don't, I would rather have my self-respect and my staff's respect than have yourself. And it's hard to do that, but the one thing, but, but it's another conversation that I could go on for hours about, but it's kind of like a conversation I love, which is like, know your people, know your people, like your people are your people or your friends or your family, the people you'll make money off of. And everybody's

person is different, like some people it's going to be a church group a temple group some people it's going to be golf some people it could be the darker side of life and i don't even actually judge like i'm like if that's your people and you can make it work in a healthy way so be it what is your favorite question to ask ask people? I don't have one. I don't have one. But if I was to come up one, if I was going to come up one for one with you, I would say it would be, I love to ask people how, so I'll go into the meetings with like some of the richest people in the world. And I'll be like, and I know what they did. We'll be like, how did you make it? What did you do? You know, I went in an interview with a guy that's selling probably a $70 million house today.

And I was like, I didn't know him, right? I was like, who are you? What did you do? And I love hearing people's stories. I love hearing how people made it. I love hearing how people made their money, how people built their fame. And it's so interesting

because everyone's story is so different and so diverse. And you're like, wow, that's just fascinating. And if somebody is willing to tell you the real how, you're like, my God, it's such a, it's a funny, interesting world. And, and, and in owning authenticity, like I think one of the things, one of the reasons why I'm so good at what I'm good at is I'm not easily impressed by wealth or fame or like, it's just, it doesn't impress me where you are, but what would impress me is how you got there. If it's the right way. That's what I love. It's cool.

And that it's a beautiful kind of ending segue here, which is, um, I read a quote of yours, which I loved, which is becoming refined in your craft, whatever it is, will humble you on its journey because everything worth mastering will always show how a lifetime is nowhere near enough to master anything, but we can try. I wrote that quote. Yes, I read it from you. And if that wasn't you, if that wasn't you, I didn't find the right credits, but I loved it. I love it too. If I, I wrote that I'm impressed with myself. That's great.

Wow. Good quote. Good quote. Look, we, we, you know, listen, listen, we do a lot of, we talk to a lot of people, but, you know, mastery is a really interesting thing that we give amongst ourselves and that confidence can come from so many different ways right it could come from passion it could come from experience it could be come from foresight mastery can come from so many different places but once you have it you have it and when somebody else has it you're like wow i want to learn from that person like i want i want to learn from that i want to spend time that person is infectious right and that's true mastery i think and and it's not what somebody has in the bank or what somebody drives or their house it's like their skill set and there's been so many people that i've listened to i'm like you should be wherever you are because you are where you are because my God,

you have your, your stuff down and nothing is more impressive than somebody that has their, their stuff down. That's not the right word to stop, but you know, you know, when somebody knows what they're talking about, that's impressive. And it's hard to get to that. And it's all agents. Now, the thing that's weird about today is you could be like nine. I have some 19 year olds outside of the store that are so tech savvy and so smart. Their brain is like so far beyond mine. And that's mastery. Yeah, it comes in many forms.

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for going to places that are not easy to talk about and then having some very clear, practical ways to think about improvement and growth. I see why you've been successful. Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. I thank you, actually, because a lot of these interviews are so cold and they're so just standardized

that I don't even like look at the questions because it's like we already have the speech down. So when you're able to dive as deep as you are and as real as you are, I think that's the most impactful. So thank you. I'm wishing the absolute best. Thank you.

Thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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