Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Journey to Olympic Gold | Alix Klineman and April Ross

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

This week’s conversation is with professional volleyball players and Olympians Alix Klineman and April Ross. Otherwise known as, The A-Team.On August 6 of this year, Alix and April captured the gold medal at the 2020 Summer Olympics, after winning in straight sets versus Australia. In the entire tournament, they went undefeated in match play, only losing one set throughout seven matches. Two weeks later, the pair won the AVP Manhattan Beach Open, their second time winning this tournament together.I’ve had the privilege to work with both of them - Alix while she was a member of the USA women’s national team for indoor volleyball and April throughout the 2016 Olympic Quad.It was an absolute joy to watch them come together to grab the gold in Tokyo.In this conversation, we discuss their journey to Gold… the formation of their partnership, their process for building trust, and what goes into performing at their best when the stakes are the highest._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm not going to always know the answer, but I can trust myself to do the best with reality and the present moment and figure it out and figure a way forward. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And I'm fortunate to work with some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet.

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when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is a gem. It is with professional volleyball players and Olympians, Alex Kleinman and April Ross, otherwise known as the A-Team. So on August 6th of this year, 2021, Alex and April captured the gold medal at the 2020 Summer Games, and they did it in a really impressive fashion. In the entire tournament, they went undefeated in match play, only losing one set throughout seven matches. I mean, flat out dominant. And then two weeks later, the pair

won the AVP Manhattan Beach Open. This is the second time that they won this tournament together. It's one of the more prestigious tournaments on a professional tour. I've had the privilege to work with both of them, April through the 2016 Olympic quad, and Alex when she was a member of the USA Women's National Team for Indoor Volleyball. It's been an absolute joy. It's been such a highlight to watch them come together to grab the gold in Tokyo. And in this conversation, we discuss their path to gold, the formation of their partnership, the process, and the risk-taking involved in transitions and building trust, and what goes into performing at their best

when the stakes are the highest. And then just a little bit of a asterisk here. During the middle of the conversation, we mentioned Nicole, and that's Nicole Davis. She is a two-time Olympic medalist herself, and she's an integral part of our team at Finding Mastery as a mindset coach who is also just about ready to complete her PhD in psychology. And so we talk about their work that they had done together as a team. And I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. Alex and April are true and honest and dominant competitors, and they have fundamentally organized their life to become their very best together. And I hope that you will reconnect with the fundamental commitments that you've made in your life, the people you've committed to, the habits that you're working on, the life efforts that have

meaning to you. And I hope that Alex and April will remind you of how much potential that you have. And at the same time, recognize just how special they are as individuals. And of course, as a dominant team. And in the most sincere way that I can say this, I hope you live your life with the same fire in the belly that they have, that is unique to you, that is called on for you to live your life to its fullest. So keep carving your unique path. The world needs it. And so does the people that you love. Now with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Olympians Alex and April. April, Alex, how are you? Great. Glad to be here. Happy to be talking

to you. It's been a while. Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. I mean, I've worked with you a long time ago and it'll be fun to connect and kind of see how things have changed since I've talked to you. Well, listen, let's start by saying congratulations, because like, not only is the outcome extraordinary, but watching and knowing your journey has been just an absolute treat. And nobody, nobody receives a gift like gold, like you have to earn it. And I've also come to understand that there are trials that come in that path and that adventure. And so I want to understand like how you guys have worked together to be able to express the upper limits of your potential. And at the same time, like how did you manage, you know, some of the hardships and the challenges

that come along the way. So congratulations. I'm honored and excited to have this conversation. And, you know, so let me just lob it over to you guys. Can I hear April's voice really quickly so that listeners can go? Yep, this is my voice. And it's really funny, because Alex and I have listened to audio, and it's hard for us to, you know, decipher who is who. So how are we going to do this? I'm not sure, but we'll, we'll, we'll navigate as we go. Okay. And both you guys are in Southern California right now. And post Olympics, let's go to pre Olympics before we get to, you know, the, the, after the game. So can you, can we go all the way back and let's start with you, April, about the ending of the Rio games

and the challenges that you had there. And can we just start there for a minute because it's going to lead us right into the new formation of the team. But can you just wind us back to the ending of Rio? Yeah, Rio, you know, I was playing with Kerry Walsh Jennings, and we had a great run, went into Rio, and in my head, fully expecting to get the gold, that was a standard, blinders were on, and had a little bit of disappointment losing in the semis,

had to turn it around, find some emotional resiliency and win that bronze. And it, you know, still to date, the hardest match I've ever played. And we had to come from behind and felt amazing to win that bronze. And I'm so proud of our effort there. And then post Rio, I wasn't sure exactly what I was going to do. I, you know, didn't know my path forward. Carrie and I ended up going different directions and it was a really tough time for me actually. And I didn't have a partner. I didn't know who, you know, if I was going to keep playing, who I was going to play with,

what my long-term goals even were personally and professionally. It was a very ambiguous time for me. And I had to do a lot of soul searching and played with Lauren Fendrick for the next season in 2017, a good friend of mine. And she was very supportive throughout that time. We did really well. I'm in world champs got a second. But then I kind of had to, you know, decide where I was going, at least professionally, and decided, you know, I'm not done searching for this gold medal. And I want to find someone who I believe can help me get there. And yeah, that's how I kind of ended up meeting Alex and eventually playing with her. Okay, so let me just drill in really quickly. Alex, I hope that you're okay kind of listening to some of this beginning story here. But you mentioned that it was an ambiguous time, a hard time, professionally and personally.

That sounds like what's happening for many people right now. Right. So we are in difficult times for people. 38% of the workforce reports being engaged at work. Only 38%. How about it? Like, that's a really low number. Can you imagine if you were only engaged in practice 38% of the time? Like, no, no, it wouldn't work and it wouldn't feel good either. Right. So, so when you're in this unambiguous time, can I put another label on it? Like high stress time? Was it highly stressful or was it not stressful for you? No, it was very stressful for me. Probably the most stress, one of the most stressful times in my life. Yeah. And I had this plan before I went to Rio, I had this plan for post Rio and I was married at the time. And, you know, the idea was to start a family and,

you know, I, I got there and I was like, I'm not sure that's what I want to do. And I wasn't even clear why. And, you know, I think it was this deep drive of mine. And I think this goal to get a gold medal was a lot bigger and had a much stronger pull on me than I even realized. And I just felt like I wasn't finished with my career and I wasn't ready to, to stop in that way. And, um, I think I had a really hard time accepting that and, and putting that into practice and acting on it. Um, and so deciding to continue to go for Tokyo was really clarifying for me. And, um, you know, I was highly engaged after that, you know, once I decided what I wanted to

do and where my heart was, I was so fired up and so motivated. So that was really nice. So would it be appropriate to call it a mini crisis, a full blown crisis? Like, was this like, I'm hoping it was, I'm hoping it was my midlife crisis and I got it out of the way. Cause I don't want to go through it again. And I feel like I learned a lot. Um, but yeah, you could call it a crisis. And then what did you do to begin to navigate through that? Did you, what, what did you do that was maladaptive and what, what did you do that was maladaptive and what what did you do that was facilitative of you know navigating the hard times because i'm as certain as we're having this conversation this is what's happening for many people right now and i don't want to move through this too

quickly and if i just don't want to move through this too quickly yeah i think i'm, you know, I can remember in the time just being so present because everything required me to figure out in the moment, you know what I was doing and, and what I wanted, and it was kind of like, just put one foot in front of the other and make the next baby right decision that I could. And, uh, it was emotionally draining for sure. And, um, I, I, yeah, it was just like the next day, like what, what can I do to get through the next day and help my future self out? That's one thing I've always done in my life. I feel like it's kept, I've kept my future self in mind when trying to work through challenges and trying to set myself up for success. So as hard as the things were that I was going through, I wanted to, I wanted to be there for myself and make sure that I was creating the best path forward, even if I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I just really had to tap into my heart. I journaled a ton. You know, I really sat with myself a lot and, you know, tuned into my higher self or whoever wanted to speak to me at the moment through the universe and point me in the right direction, I tried to just to figure out where I wanted to go. And, and, you know, once I had an inkling of the next kind of turn to make, I tried to take a step in that direction, whatever that was,

as small as that was. And that kind of led me to where I am today. So when I play it back, this is what I hear is that I had clarity of my future self, like what, who I wanted to be in the future. And I would honor that in the present. Sometimes maybe more than you wanted to, you would move away from what was right for that future self. And, and that therein lies the crisis potentially, but is that right? Like you use your imagination to imagine who and who you're becoming. Yeah. I don't think I ever had like a complete clear vision of how I was going to get to my end goal or even, you know, what I looked like in the future, what I was doing in the

future. But I think in the moment you have a decently good idea of, is this going to be good for me in the future? Is this going to be bad for me in the future? And even if I don't know exactly where it's leading, I want to take a step towards, you know, maybe what's going to lead to something better. Like, even when I wasn't sure if I wanted to play with Alex at Stagecoach, you know, I went up and had a conversation with her about it. Like, hey, maybe, you know, in the future, if, you know, we can talk about playing or whatever, just kind of like laying the groundwork for things that could be beneficial in the future and and you know in my not so productive um times you know I also after Rio wanted you know I felt like I had sacrificed so much of my life trying to do this for my career. I had lost a lot of the personal

side of things and I didn't have a social life. And so I'm trying to catch up in that way too. And I'd say that was maladaptive for my goals going forward. You know, like I'm going out, having a good time. And at a certain point I did say, you know, like this is not helpful and I need to put my future self more centered in, um, my decisions and my actions. And that was really what catapulted me forward and got me back on the right path. So I'm inspired by the model that you're talking about, which is breaking some rules, um, you know, exploring parts of that are unexplored and having an idea of your future self and making micro decisions toward it. And then at some point,

I feel exhausted by it. Right? Like, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, I know that if I'm going to have, let's say a glass of wine or if I have a second or third, I've just kind of crossed over. So, you know, so, and some, for some people, sometimes me like three leads to, you know, to wait more and more and it's a problem. And so I'm not saying I have a drinking problem. I'm saying that I know like those moments and sometimes it's like the clarity is wonderful. And also sometimes it feels like exhausting. Like, am I always making the fricking decision to be better later?

And so Alex is coming to you now in a second here. Okay. But April, how did you, how do you manage that bit? Because you literally, you guys have earned the right to say this quad from an Olympic standpoint, we are the best in the world, um, from a talent or from a volleyball perspective. So how did, how do you manage that exhaustion, that freedom, that fun, that restriction, that celebration? How do you manage those little micro choices? Well, in the, in the past I have, you know, usually for me after the Olympics, it's like,

four more years coming up. And there's, in my mind, a period of time where you can go out and just have fun and let off all the steam and get it out of your system. And then you kind of start to dial it back in and you grind for the next three years. And luckily, I feel like I'm a type of person who, um, finds joy in the grind and like, I love it. So I don't get super burnt out on it, but I do have to have that chunk of time where I can be free and let it all out so that I can focus for the next period of time. Um, so that's what I did after Rio. I'm trying, we, this year is a little bit different. We still have tournaments and stuff. And so I'm, I haven't been able to let off a ton of steam yet. I feel like I'm just in a different part of my life though. And I don't feel like I

sacrificed as much personal stuff on this journey. And that was another thing that I learned from my previous journeys that I wanted to balance it, um, have a better balance just so that I could enjoy the journey a little bit more. And I feel like I did that. So I don't feel like I need to blow, blow off a ton of steam after, after Tokyo. Okay. Alex, is she a risk taker? Yep. And are you um I am definitely not a risk taker I would say like the only time I've really taken a huge risk was coming to the beach and that was very like out of character the way I made my decision and just the way I went against everything that was logical to me. Um, I think April is a little bit more open to kind of just doing what feels right. Um, and I don't, I don't know if that means that she's a risk taker, but I think like in some regards, you're not as risk averse, I guess. Whereas I want to feel like there's like a plan and,

you know, like it's, if I do take all the right steps, it's going to work out perfectly. Go ahead. I think, I think, well, I, I think you said it exactly right, but a perfect example of that. And I'm going to get into volleyball tech like technically but we have all these plays that we run on defense and we knew the general idea behind each play but I'm back there on defense and I'm like I'm just gonna you know in this play I'm gonna feel it out and if I see something else I'm gonna do a little something else and then Alex in practice especially would turn around and be like I need to know exactly what you were doing on that play because why did they do that? And was it me or was it you? And like, we had to sit there and break it down. So she knew exactly what we were doing. to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FIND 20 at felixgray.com for 20 off the reason i asked that is because um i love where you're taking it which is like the way you process information is how you're getting down to the calculations for risk and risk without information is like people don't last very long in life because they're just jumping off of buildings right like if you don't have the information that jumping more than 10 feet hurts or whatever. And so Alex, you took a real risk and April, you took a real risk in the partnership. But Alex, you go from, you know, a queen indoor to, or maybe it's a princess. I don't know.

Maybe there was, you know, I'm not sure right analogy because you're early in the process, but like you had this, all this momentum, how's that in indoor? And then you make a decision to kind of flip and go into beach. So how did you, how did you do that? Well, I don't know if I would say I had all of this momentum because I do think that part of what led me to kind of reevaluate everything and to search for a new opportunity was that I felt like my momentum had kind of stalled and it was at like a stagnant place in my career. And it was weird because there was kind of a dichotomy of my professional career and my national team career. And my professional career was going really great, but my national team career was not. And I'm just the person that I want to always be shooting for the highest goal possible. And so like, to me, the Olympics has always been the end goal for me. And I, I just had such a desire to

get there. And I felt like on the national team, my chances weren't getting any greater, but at the same time too, like I kind of carved out this whole life and lifestyle of playing abroad and making money and, you know, going back to the national team and all of this stuff. And, um, I just remember in 2016, it was the first time that I wasn't invited back into the gym. And that was that summer right before the Olympics. And I, it really just kind of like blindsided me a bit. And, you know, I knew I wasn't making all of the rosters, but I had not, not been invited back into the gym for several years. And so it really made me kind of reevaluate everything. And I was like,

what, what is volleyball even mean to me if I don't have the Olympics as a goal and, um, as something I can strive for. And so I had already signed on to play one more professional year in Brazil that year. And it just felt, it felt empty. Like, you know, what am I doing this for? I know I like volleyball, but like, where is this greater meaning for me? And midway through that year, I actually got a call back from the national team inviting me to come back for the following summer. And so I said, yes. And, you know, I wanted to keep the door open until I was sure I wanted to close that door, but there was something in me that just felt

this tug towards the beach and having a new opportunity and being able to kind of pursue my dreams in a new way, because like I could tell that I was not my best self um in the national team gym like I just I wasn't reaching my potential even overseas I was playing so much better than I was in the national team and so there's something about the environment that did not agree with kind of the way that I you know was approaching things, it, it wasn't a total fit. And so I'm the type of person I want to get, you know, everybody I respect, I want to get their opinion and their advice. And I want to like weigh the pros and cons and see what, you know, I mean, not literally, but, you know, essentially. And so I had asked, you know, my parents and my agent and, you know,

some people that I respect what they thought I should do. And every single person said, you should give it another quad indoor. And they said, you're making good money and you're young and you're in your prime and you still have more potential. And you know, what, what's guaranteed on the beach? Nothing was guaranteed. In fact, like it was pretty guaranteed that I probably wouldn't make any money. My first year is pretty guaranteed that, you know, I wouldn't have very much success immediately. And for whatever reason, I made this choice with so much conviction and I knew that it's what I

wanted to do. And I kind of just said, screw everybody else. I don't know. I don't care if this doesn't make sense, but this is what I want to do. And I did it. And I think that that is such a big part of why I was successful because I had so much conviction. Like there was nobody telling me that this is the right thing for me. It was what I felt and what I wanted. And there is like so much failure that had translated into motivation that like, I just, I had such a drive on the beach and I knew I had so much ground to cover, but at the same time, like there was never a doubt in my mind that that's where I wanted to be. And that's that I belong there and that it was the right place for me. So, um, yeah, I don't even remember what the question was, but like, that's how the whole thing progressed. And

that's how I ended up, you know, making that jump. I do have to note that Alex doesn't have any FOPO. I saw that on your Instagram, fear of other people's opinions. It sounds like it. It's definitely said, like, it sounds like your decision making process is that at some point, you gather information from, you know, your community of trusted folks, then you run it through a filter of your own. And that filter sounds like it's, it has to do with your personal meaning. And there's like, listen, the last filter is like, this is my life. And what, what do I want? And how do I want to live my life? It sounds like that's the last filter that goes through. But there's a bit of gathering of information from other people first. Is that close to accurate?

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because my manager always jokes that I asked her for her opinion and then I end up just doing whatever I want. So it's like, sometimes I need to get somebody's opinion to realize whether I agree with it or not. And so I think it kind of reveals like what my inner desire truly is. Um, and so, yeah, I would say that, you know, I try to make really educated decisions and I, and going back to what April said, like in general, I, I agree with her. Like, I think I don't really care that much about what other people think or, or, you know, like I'm very true to myself, but I, I do think that in about what other people think or, or, you know, like I'm very true to myself, but I, I do think that in the national team gym, there is that environment when I was

playing indoor that you have to care what the coach thinks, right? Because he's the one making all the decisions and he's the one that's choosing to put me on rosters or not put me on rosters. And so I almost felt like it forced me to spend all of this time concerned with how I was being perceived, which is not how I like to conduct myself. And I think that is maybe why I didn't really thrive in that environment because I wasn't really ever able to let go of what the coach thought of me or how he, you know, what potential he saw in me. It was like, that's not the way that I'm going to play my best. That's what I was, you know, that's kind of how I was trying to approach it.

It's really, really rich. You know, I wish there was a model that we could follow, you know, because what jumps through this conversation is authenticity, purpose, and making decisions that are lining up for what feels right to you. And it's a really beautiful, eloquent model. And then I want to pause there for just a moment. And April, you brought up FOPO, which I think is one of the great constrictors of human potential, like the entertainment of what they might think of me. And so you're saying your, your

partner doesn't have it because somewhere I wanted to go was, I think that it's really hard. It would be hard to play for you, April. Not because, not because you're, you're, you're character because you're a, you're a winner. Like you're, you're a savage, you know, like, and I say that in all the right competitive spirit, like you are incredible when you're on the field, when you're, you're a savage, you know, like, and I say that in all the right competitive spirit, like you are incredible when you're on the field, when you're training, and you've got a track record. So I think coming in Alex, you coming in, I think for me could be, it could be difficult at some stage of my life. Right now I would like, it could be easier because I've worked through some

stuff, but it was this ever an issue like playing for the April Ross. Well, Oh, go ahead, Alex. I would say from my perspective, it wasn't because it's not like I was coming in thinking I was as good as April. And now I have to, you know, share the spotlight or like, you know, figure out what our roles are or whatever. Like I came into this whole sport and process being like, I am at ground, ground zero. I have to learn everything, you know, and I was very open-minded and I tried to be very realistic with where I was

at. And I was like, okay, I'm not good right now. And I need to just soak up as much as I can and learn as much as I can from April and from Jen. And, you know, like it was very much a growth mindset. I felt, I feel like from my perspective and I feel like April had so much knowledge to share. And I think that's why it did really work. Like, I mean, it still does work, but I think it, it really worked in the beginning because she was able to kind of just share everything she knew with me. And I was trying to soak it all up. And then at the same time, I think I was so dedicated and driven, even though I wasn't there skill-wise and she was too. And I think she recognized that. So there was like this respect of like, okay, I know you have a long way to go, but I can tell how hard

you're trying to get there. And I was, from my perspective, doing everything I could to, you know, get better every day and to learn from her and to listen to her and not insist that I was right or, you know, whatever, because I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. And so I think just being okay with knowing that I didn't know everything kind of set us up for like a successful partnership. Yeah. And I, you know, I think I have really, I know I have really high standards for myself and I work to win. And maybe that can be perceived as intimidating or hard to live up to in some way. But I also know that, you know, I wanted to play with Alex, not just because I thought she could be a really good volleyball player. There were other attributes of hers that I really admired

and respected and valued. And so I wanted to make sure that, you know, we were a team and we were collaborating and it wasn't like, okay, you come in and you do what I say, and you're going to be on my team and we're going to, you know, do this system. It was like, okay, you know, how do you want to play and what makes sense to you and how can we make this most effective so I just really wanted us to feel like a team and I wanted to express to her you know we need well I think our communication is pretty good I wanted her to feel like she could do things differently and that's okay and I did want to share my knowledge wherever I could. I didn't want to overwhelm

her with it or insist on anything. And at a certain point, she let me know that maybe it was a little bit too much and she had her own way to do it. And I respect that. And we ended up doing a lot of things very differently down the stretch. And I'm totally okay with that. And obviously it worked really well, but I think for me, part of making a good team is taking the strengths of both players and putting them together, not saying like, oh, this is April's team come beyond April's team. So the, what I'm hearing is that Alex, you maintained a beginner's mindset, a true learner's approach to growth and improvement, which actually deescalates expectations, you know, and like letting people down.

Cause you're like, listen, I'm learning. What do you want me to do? And I'm backing it up with film and I'm backing up with the gym work and I'm backing up with recovery work and I'm eating as good as I can. And I don't know what you're doing maybe for imagery or self-talk or mindfulness or some of the psychological based practices, but there was a commitment to being a great learner. And then April, you created the environment where that could work. I tried to. One thing I want to add is, well well first of all like I do think I had a very beginner's mindset but I am pretty opinionated and I always wanted to understand why I should be doing

something so there was a lot of question asking going on like you know April and Jen would give their input and it was always like but why but why because I'm the type of person that I need to know I really need to buy into something before I can fully jump in so I do think like April said it was pretty collaborative and I think you know even though I didn't know very much I was constantly like trying to be very involved and just very present and very like you know I wanted to comprehend everything we were doing so that when it did start clicking, I understood why I had worked so hard to try to do it that way. I also think that one thing that really set the stage for our partnership is we actually met with Nicole,

Nicole Davis at the very beginning. And I was able to kind of explain where I was coming from with, you know, the indoor side. And she was kind of explaining what she was looking for. And we were very, I would say we were very raw in that first initial conversation. And I really laid out, you know, kind of where I was coming from emotionally, and just, you know, like, the failures and the challenges and the obstacles that I had gone through. And so I think April was also able to see right from the very beginning kind of where I was coming from what I was working with what my motivations were and she was able to trust that this was like a very important thing to me um and I don't know I think there is just

like more there's like a trust and an understanding from the beginning even though we didn't know each other very well because we had had that initial conversation of like, what are our goals? And where are we coming from? And it was just a very like open conversation where I felt like, okay, like, now I can be myself. And now I can just do things the way that I want to and to the best of my ability and hope that, you know, she sees it that way. Groundwork, you know, that foundational relationship work pays so many dividends, you know, when you can walk away and say, I'm going to be me. And in this relationship, that's, that is the standard to be as good as I can possibly be. And I'm going to do it authentically. That groundwork is radical.

Was there any moment in time, can you guys tell a story where everything's kind of like clicking and then you go oh no i've definitely made the wrong decision um well i think we had a couple of those ups and downs and we were as soon as we got together I think we got together in like November of 2017 we had an event over New Year's 2018 so we got we hit the ground running training really hard and we start like scrimmaging other teams and no joke we lose terribly in every single scrimmage leading up to our first tournament. And I can remember thinking I wasn't giving up at all. You know, like I had committed to Alex. I was in it with Alex for the long term and I wasn't going to second guess it after a couple of practices or even after a couple of tournaments. But I can remember thinking like, like oh my how are we going to do this

and what are we going to do in this first tournament I you know I just couldn't see it I could I like we we lose every single set in practice and then we go into the first tournament we're in the country quota which you have to play America if you're low enough on the roster of American teams you have to play American teams first to see enough on the roster of American teams you have to play American teams first to see if you can even get in the qualifier to see if you can even get into the main draw tournament to make points and money so we're in this country quota we're the lowest team in of USA in the tournament and we win both matches in the country quota miraculously go through the qualifier make it into the main draw.

And at this point we're really excited, like, oh my gosh, we're making points and money. And we ended up winning the entire tournament, the entire tournament. And every team in the world is there. And it was just, I couldn't believe it. I don't think either one of us could believe it. So, and this has been a, it's a reoccurring theme. We, you know, we really try as hard as we can to practice. I think that's one of the best things we do is we put a lot of pressure on ourselves when in

practice, um, practice winning, um, each rep we want to be perfect, but sometimes we just, we don't do well in practice and we don't do well in warm ups and we get really frustrated and then we get into the match and for whatever reason it, I think motivates us in some way to perform. But after that first very first tournament, we won, we go to the next tournament a stinger and we had to re-evaluate kind of everything and we we panic also you know like we're stressors and we're like why did this happen and what can we do to fix it immediately like we need to go watch a ton of video we need to go practice right now um and so that really motivates us as well. And that happened a few times where we do really well, and then we would do really poorly. Even in tournaments, we'd get to a tournament, we'd have a really terrible first game, we'd lose to some team that we have no

business losing to go back to the drawing board. It's like, I mean, it's a crisis, right, Alex, like when stuff like that happens, and we have to figure it out. And we always have managed to come back stronger after those, you know, valleys. Yeah. I mean, just to add on to what April was saying, like, I don't think, I think she's almost even like understating how much of a crisis it is when we fail like if we do bad or something goes wrong or if we have one match where we lose like we go back to the drawing board and we're like we have to do everything different or like not different but like why is everything going

so wrong and it's like we definitely freak out a little bit but at first we were like oh we shouldn't freak out so much and then we started to realize that every time that we kind of reevaluated everything and went back and talked everything through, it led to better results afterwards. And so, you know, some people, some of our coaches would be like, you guys need to calm down, you know, it's going to be okay. And it's like, we started to trust in our process, you know, and say like, no, you know, we do this all the time. And whenever we freak out, like it, we bounce back better. And I think we're just such high achievers and we have high standards. And when we don't meet that standard, it's like, this is the end of the world, you know, and we treat it like that. And like April was saying, like, we are like, we try

so hard every day at practice. So it's like when something doesn't go right, it's a big deal to us. We're so invested. And so we went through a lot of cycles like that where, you know, some, it was rolling, rolling, rolling, something bad would happen. We'd freak out. Oh my gosh, we have to try so much harder. We have to watch so much more film. We have to talk about this all. We have to figure out exactly why it happened and prevent it from ever happening again and but then we'd like you know we'd really build from there and then we'd hit another roadblock and we'd go through that all again and it's you know it's obviously a little bit emotionally exhausting but I think we that's just how we approach the game like we are all in and it is like a really, really full-time job in every aspect of the word.

But I think that's just the way we go about it and it worked for us. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly

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And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code Finding Mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. I hear how you guys work and I don't need to ask the question because I think both you guys, if we're to ask, like if I was to ask, do you lean on the side of anxiety or depression? You know, if there was one mood that you gravitated toward, I think I know the answer. It's definitely anxiety, but wave me off if I'm

wrong there. And then everything sounded so melodic. And then you got to the word perfection. And I was like, it was like the scratch, like, what? And so, and then, and then it made sense. You're like, yeah, because the wheels are going to fall off. And then we, you know, this high anxiety kind of freak out mode. And I think that I want to understand what is so scary if it's not working out the way you hoped it would work out. Because I hear other parts of your model, your psychological model. You're like, listen, I'm in it for the long game. And, and I listen, winning matters. And I'm about

learning and getting better. That's the long game. And so like, where does this fall apart that there's a there's freaking out that comes from not being perfect or not going the way you want it to go? Well, I don't think the word scary is the right word like I don't think that we are ever scared um like it's not this like fearful thing that's happening where we're like nervous or afraid that we aren't capable or it's more like we're really unsatisfied is how I would describe it more it's's like, we know we're mad that our training is, has not paid off the way that we want it or expect it to. Okay. So it's not like a high anxiety. Oh my God, fire alarm. We should like, it's not that it's,

it's more of a frustration. Like, what are we doing? Like, how did this not work out? Because we're both highly capable. We've worked our asses off. And what's happening here? And so that forces you to break it apart and re-examine the components. Is that how you do the post-evaluation? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very intense form of kind of critical evaluation and trying to understand what went wrong and how

do we put the pieces back together and make it work better but it's we're calling it a freak out because we like just I don't know we go crazy over it and we need to figure out how to make it better. But I don't think it is this anxiety, fearful thing that's going on. Well, we're definitely both perfectionists. And I know that is an evil word. And many people have tried to break us of that and convince us perfection is the enemy of good and all of that. And maybe don't be so intense. You know, when we're warming up, coaches have tried to lighten the mood and we've, it just like, doesn't work for us. Or maybe it would, if we had another five years to work on it or something, but I think it's so ingrained in us, how we operate and kind of, we need that fuel. And, and I think when you are

a perfectionist and you do have those expectations. And for me, like I go into a match, I don't think I'm going to win, but I expect to win and I really want to win. And so when things aren't going that way, I get really mad. And I, that frustration and that anger turns to motivation and aggression for me. So the way it materializes in my mind is productive and yes, it's stressful and yes, it's, you know, it causes anxiety, but for me, it's always led to the results I've gotten. And I have tried to manage it better throughout my career. Like I used to be really fearful and really anxiety ridden, you know, in college and earlier as a professional. But I feel like I've gotten to the point where I can manage it a little bit better,

but I, and I see both sides of the coin, you know, like, yeah, if I could play calm and add a five and just confident and easy the whole time, I would prefer to do that. But I've tried that. And that at least immediately doesn't really work for me. And so in a way, I prefer this mode of operating. And so, OK, so what I I hear urgency, not desperation. And I hear that urgency with high standards. And there's almost like an expectation that's going to work out because that's kind of how you work from the inside out, like things work out for you because of the attention to detail, the care, the intelligence and the hard work that you put on it. And so I don't hear desperation. I hear urgency. And earlier when I said long game,

I wasn't necessarily referring to the long game in sport because three years is actually not the long game, right? Like I'm thinking like the 30 years, like what happens if sport, if you don't win a gold medal is what I was trying to get to. But let's pin that for just a moment. And I want to see if we can circle around this one more way, which is, do you have anxiety in other parts of your life?

This perfectionist thing in other parts of your life? Or does it just show up in training? Well, I think there's one more kind of layer I'd like to add to what April just said and it's that what she said like people have always tried to get us to kind of like lighten our mood or if things are really tense at practice it's like okay let's just relax and let's have fun and remember it's a game and let's enjoy it and we're like you know and we've tried it a couple of times but we're like that's not how we play like that's not our MO and that's not our style. And we play well because we're really intense and we care a lot. And like, and it's not ruining, like, it's not affecting our communication. We

both know that we're both intense and we're both okay with it. So I think between us, it works really well. And then we have another coach who is like, you know, you guys are such perfectionists, you know, it's going to get in the way of you being competitive. And, you know, I love so much of what you do, but this is the one thing that makes me nervous about you guys going into the Olympics. And this is a coach we really respect a lot. And, but I do really believe that we are perfectionists until we hit a wall and then we get in like survival mode and we turn into competitors so I think you know there's a point where we want to do everything great and perfect and whatever and then we get into a match and we have to be gritty and we get gritty you know and it's like and we learn we know that we just need to grovel and we're okay with it

after a certain point after we realize like okay perfection is like our perfectionist side isn't really serving us and then I feel like we're able to kind of like flip a switch and then just grovel and get ugly points and find a way to win and so and I think this is what has been maybe the most rewarding thing of playing on the beach and playing with April is that like there isn't just one model of how to be successful. Like for me, there's so many different ways that you can be successful. And like when I was on the indoor team, it was always like, okay, let's like, try to play like this and find our five and, you know, be really mellow and, you know, just not too much activation or whatever. And I just think that it's so individual. And I think finding what

works for you. And that's, what it's so individual. And I think finding what works for you. And that's, what's really been inspiring about playing with April is that she's found what works for her and she sticks to it. And like, it's not that she's not open-minded to other ideas, but I think she's, she has really strong conviction with what she does. And it's like, okay, I know that you don't do it this way. And I know that you don't think I should do it this way, but I do it this way and it works, you know? And so I think we found something that worked really well for us and we stuck with it no matter, you know, we, we obviously heard people out and we listened to what their advice was and we'd try it and sometimes things worked and we'd pick it up

and we'd add it to our arsenal. But when we felt like, you know, it was the right thing for us, we did it and we stuck with it. It's great. And I think for folks that don't know what we're talking about, like finding your five, it's a scale of one to 10, 10 being way too switched on one, having not enough internal energy systems activated. And a five is that sweet spot. And I'll just add that everybody's five is different. Like mine might look really mellow to you, or it might look really intense to you, but it's right for me. And so from a philosophical standpoint, your job is to find your five. Now, what exactly does your heart rate do and your posture look like and kind of the intensity inside you? What is that? That's yours. And it's unique to you. And so

everyone's got a unique one. It sounds like you guys know what that dialed in feeling and sensation looks like. And you have some skills to get there on a regular basis and you find it in practice. You don't just wait for game day. Yeah, I would agree with that. Our five is like an eight for most, for most people. Yeah. Oh yeah. maybe sometimes a 10 for me yeah so how do you manage how do you manage that big anxiety like when like maybe i want to go back to i want i do want to go backwards to like alex when you're what did you watch april play in the rio games i actually watched very little of april before playing with her I obviously knew a lot about her and I, I, I had gone to a couple of tournaments.

They played in long beach and I watched a bunch of her matches. So I was very familiar with, you know, what she looked like as a competitor and her success and all of that. But I, I wouldn't say like, I studied her watched so much of her matches because I was still playing indoor. So I was, you know, so immersed in that world. Okay. All right. And then, so let's, let's go back to, let's go into the games, right? So now we're arriving in, in Tokyo.

What was that flight like for you guys? Cause I know the airport was tricky, you know, like getting out of the airport was how long was know, like getting out of the airport was how long was your, ours was like to go get through processing. What was your processing? We had so much luck with our flight. Um, which is not a statement you hear very often, but, um, we decided to fly American cause that's what we've always flown. The rest of the team flew United cause it's an Olympic sponsor. Um, and there was literally no one on our flight we got in we blew through processing in an hour and had to wait a half an hour for our um test results and then we got on the bus it's crazy that's a good deal right there yeah that's a really good because what happened to

the rest of the beach volleyball team had we flown flown with them, is it took, I think, like 15 hours for them to get out of the airport. And there were three positive tests on their flight. So had we been on that flight, it would have been a different picture for us. Oh, that was fortunate. Yeah. I got through in like three and a half hours and it was a relatively small flight, meaning not a lot of people on the flight. So, and that was the hangup is that everybody needed to be tested. And then one of the funniest things was seeing, seeing some of the teammates trying to get enough saliva together at the saliva test at the airport. Was, was that hard for you guys too?

Oh my gosh. It was so hard for me. It's the easiest thing in the world for Alex. So Alex does it in 10 seconds and I'm there for five minutes trying to freaking fill that thing up. And the anxiety because you've got like three people watching you spit into this little tube and you're like, I swear there's nothing there and I'm trying. Oh my God. Okay. So. Yeah.

I tried to take a video of April at the airport and they got so mad at me for taking the video, but I was like, what is this holdup? I did this in two seconds. I literally spit into the vial, filled all the way up. And then April was there for five minutes and she still can't get to the little dotted line. And it was so funny and they were not happy with me. Okay. funny and they were not happy with me but okay and then I think I want to zoom into you Alex you

know when you first see the rings or a whatever the trigger was when you're like oh these are the I'm at the games like do you have did you have a trigger experience like that and for some people it's look at the rings or getting on in your, you know, your outfit for the first time or going to training, whatever it might be. But did you have a moment where you're like, oh. Well, so when we talk about like anxiety around the Olympics, mine was, I think, a little bit reverse. So the few months leading up to the Olympics, I actually felt very nervous. And I just had a lot of these thoughts of, you know, what if I don't do well, what if I don't play well, you know, will I ever have this chance again? And I,

some of these kind of fears and negative thoughts were starting to creep in and, you know, so many people were coming up and saying, oh, you know, good luck. Don't come home without a gold, you know, like, you know, just things that you think you tune out, but like you hear them enough times and you're kind of like, oh crap, what if I don't come home with the medal or, you know, and, and people would say, you know, are you nervous? And I'd be like, oh my God, yeah, I'm so nervous. And April's like, stop telling people you're nervous, you know? And so we, I actually kind of asked to meet, we met with Nicole before the Olympics, because I just felt like I had to kind of get this off of my chest. I felt like I was holding in all of this nervous energy and I wasn't able to share it and kind of just accept it and deal with it and put it out there. And so, um, and I think at that time, April was feeling decently calm, but I, I just was like, I can tell that

this is weighing on me and it's in the back of my head a lot. And so we had a long conversation about it and, you know, kind of just tried to get a zoomed out perspective of it all. And, you know, like at the end of the day, like people don't spend their whole lives, like thinking about how I did at the Olympics also, like who cares what other people think, you know, like you kind of just taking a step back and being like, what does this really mean to me? And how does, how will this affect my life? And so I think it gave me a better perspective, but then it was weird because when I got to the Olympics, I felt really weirdly calm. Like I heard, I don't think I really felt nervous until the finals.

I remember feeling like more nervous energy, but I remember, and I was nervous before the first match for sure. And then I got onto the court and I was like, Oh, this is all it is. Like, I think I had built it up to be something so big in my mind that it actually felt a lot easier when in actuality, when I started playing, because I was like, Oh, all I have to do is play volleyball. All I have to do is what I do every day. And I think there was part of me that believed like, I would have to play so much better than I had ever played to have success at the Olympics. Like perfect. You'd have to play perfectly. Yeah.

Yeah. So, all right. So then what is your model? Like, how did you work with the thoughts when you'd have a thought or a feeling that felt like you were too switched on too much energy, nervousness, whatever you might call it. How did you work with those thoughts? Because this is not complicated, right? This is like, this is the game inside the game. One, build awareness of your inner life. Build, so, and like how, so you can know yourself to manage and to guide and sometimes say hello and goodbye, sometimes to wink to thoughts and sometimes to entertain thoughts.

But like, how did you work with those thoughts or those feelings that were challenging? Well, I don't think I dealt with them in a super productive way leading up to the Olympics, which is why it was kind of weighing on me. I think having that conversation was really helpful. One thing that April and I do in competition, which probably would have served me to be doing it out of competition, but we meditate every night and both of our meditations like a little bit differently. But so we spend some time before going to bed to kind of just center ourselves. And then we also always spend five minutes before we warm up to visualize. And so I think that, especially the visualization for me, I think is something that's really powerful. And I take time, I control my

breathing, I start to visualize myself in my body doing things really well. And it's kind of just like, reminding myself, like, I know how to do this. I'm seeing myself do this. Now I'm going to go warm up and I'm going to go do it. Super clean. Do you do it like in the warmup area or do you do it before you get like in the, in the building area or are you doing it out on the sand in your chair? On the sand. On the sand. Super crisp. Yeah. April, I see you jumping in there. Oh, well, yeah, no, I have a similar experience as Alex. And, you know, from experience that six months leading up to the Olympics is pretty overwhelming. And I've found that each one I have experienced more overwhelm and more anxiety and leading up to Tokyo was, um, you know, pretty stressful. And I was having problems with, um, I think I had so much anxiety. I was worried and, and I'd have a distracting thought during training or competition. And it's not a big thought,

it's something stupid, but then I'd overanalyze it and I'd be afraid like oh my gosh what if I get to the Olympics and I have this stupid distracting thought and it makes me mess up and we don't win a gold medal because I was thinking about this stupid thing and so I started having kind of like this obsessive thought pattern and And it was I was really worried about it. And I actually, you know, got to a point where I was like, I just need to talk to somebody about it. So I actually I found a therapist and like, like three months before the games, and I started going weekly, just to kind of help, you know, with overall anxiety and obsessive thoughts and all that. And she really helped me. And I credit that a lot to my mental state going into the games and kind of

being able to, you know, when the anxiety spiral starts to kind of bring it back down to a grounded spot and, you know, really anchor myself in the present moment. And yeah, all of that helped a ton at the game. So I was not calm and collected going into the Olympics, even if it may have seemed like it. Ah, there you go. I mean, that's why we do the front loading of the work so that we can arrive somewhere and give ourselves the best chance to be more present than if we hadn't done the work. And those spiral loops that you're talking about, everybody knows what they are. Everybody experiences those things.

And so there's at least a couple of ways to work with them. Would you say, would you have a pattern where you'd say, oh, those are just thoughts? I don't need to entertain that right now and kind of swing your attention back to something more relevant. Or would you work on replacing the thought or like finding a more optimal thought? And those are two different camps. Both can work. And then there's a third strategy, which is like do something physiological to become

more relaxed. If it happened off the court, I would replace the thought. And one thing that was really helpful for me was kind of some self-soothing mantras and really, you know, what would I say to a friend? And, you know, if they were having these thoughts and really, you know, how would that make them feel and really feeling that myself and what would it feel like if a friend said that to me and trying to embrace that. And that helped a ton, you know, kind of giving myself a little bit more acceptance and room to be human. So that was the most helpful thing for me. And then if it was on the court, and this is kind of a combination of what I learned from Nicole also, like when we come out to pick something to anchor to. So if I did feel this spiral starting or these thoughts coming in, you know, I, I knew exactly what I was going to go to, to bring me back to the moment. And that was my feet in the sand. So I would, you know, feel my feet in the sand, sometimes just even look at my feet in the sand and it would bring me back to the, to the moment.

Amazing. Listen, that's the value of psychological skills is that you do them ahead of time so that when you do feel overwhelmed, you've got strategies to work on or to, to exercise in those moments. Just last thing like about that. Cause I, a year out when we had the, we had a lot of time to think during the pandemic right and you know I've always kind of worked from set your big goal and obviously what little things along the way do you need to do to achieve that and I'm really big on making sure you do all of those things if you really want something to happen and then one of them was see a therapist and I wanted to be doing it for like a year, finally made it happen three months out,

but I'm really proud of myself for, cause it's hard, it's hard. Like I literally picked someone on Google and called them and it worked out, but it's, it's, I think it's hard to ask for help sometimes a lot of the time. It is hard work. Yeah.

It is hard work. Worth it though. Yeah. Amen to that. So what was the hardest time at Tokyo for you guys? What was the biggest challenge that you guys had? My biggest challenge I probably can't talk about. She says you can't talk about it. My biggest challenge I probably can't talk about. No, I had a lot of trouble sleeping one night. Oh, I know.

Oh, God, I can imagine. Okay. Yeah, and tried a couple different solutions and was just full on panic. Yeah, but it ended up being okay. So just sleeping at the games is always really tough for me. And it's because the thought loops. Um, yeah. And, and yeah, not being able to turn my brain off at night about what we're trying to do the next day. Yeah. It sounds like it's a tough one for you. This is not easy for most people

that are really care about something. And you might remember when you were a kid and if you celebrated like Christmas or something like that, a holiday, it's like, it's hard to sleep the night before. And so it's because you care and it's exciting and it's like all of it. Yeah. Okay. Alex, how about for you? what was the hardest part for you i don't know if i can really pinpoint the hardest part i know that i felt a little bit overwhelmed at the beginning of the olympic experience before the tournament started there was just so much like stimulation, you know, I'd never been to the village before. And we spent the first day kind of exploring, but then, you know, between going to practice and

getting therapy and what there's a lot of walking involved in, you know, getting to the shuttle and going to practice and all of that. I just remember thinking like, Oh my gosh, there's no time to rest. And I felt like I was either like texting people back home about how everything was going, or I was walking somewhere or I was, you know, like I was just every minute of the day seemed like it was flying by. And we kind of talked about it. And I, I knew that I needed to reserve more time for just getting to rest in my bed and kind of getting to decompress. So I think I was a little bit anxious about the lack of rest and just how much it felt like was going on. And I think that resolved partially once we just started playing because it was like, okay,

we go to the venue, we play our match, which we got really lucky with our schedule. So we were playing at 9am every morning. We would go do some recovery after that. And then we'd have the rest of the day and then you'd had the whole next day. So like, things definitely did slow down. But I, I think I was a little bit overwhelmed just by how much there was to do every day. And, you know, the lack of rest that we were having in the beginning. So looking back, what, what reflections, what insights, what wisdom what wisdoms you know have you been able to better understand when you reflect back on on who you are up to this date not just the games but who you are when you look back at your life well i think i have kind of a different perspective on what it takes to win um like i when I was playing indoor I always felt like there

needed to be like this like magic clutch moment that you needed to take hold of to like win a big match or like there there needed to be this I don't know like you something super special and out of the ordinary needed to happen and I think what April and I have tapped into, and maybe she's tapped into this for a while, but like, we just, we are so consistent with the way that we put in work every day. And I think that, yeah, there were ups and downs and there were times that we panicked a little bit, or there's times that we were anxious, but like the level and the quality and the intensity of the work that we put in was just so consistent across the board over four years that like our base level of performance just

ended up being so high when it came time to perform you know and so it didn't feel like and you know obviously there's little ounces of luck infused here and there and whatever but like when we got to the olympics it didn't feel like we had to do something out of the ordinary like even when i look back like i know we played really well but i don't look back and think like oh my god how did i make that play or like how did we get this ball up you know it was like we just were very intentional we were very focused and we did the things that we tried to do every single day in practice and i think the things that we tried to do every single day in practice. And I think the fact that we never took practices off, we never were like, oh, today

doesn't matter. Today we're tired. It's not a big deal if we have an off day. Like we were so intense every single day. And I just think that that consistent work is what paid off. And I think realizing that that's like the magic that takes what it takes to win, not magic doesn't happen at the end of the game, you know? And so that's just really like enlightening to me, I guess. April, how about for you? I think over all of this, I started to really cultivate a trust in myself. And, you know, I'm really big at proving to yourself that you can trust yourself and coming through all the challenges and all the stress and really, like I said before, trying to do what's best for my future self and knowing that if I work really hard, you know, I'm going. I'm never, I'm a control freak

and I'm never going to be able to control the future, but I'm continuing to learn that I can trust my future self also to do the best for myself. And I think, you know, it's shown through my career that, you know, I can find the best in, you know, whatever situation I'm in. And for me, that feels really good.

I think it's one of the ultimate states of knowing to get to that I know I'll figure it out. It doesn't mean that I have any of the answers right now, but as I go, I will figure things out. That level of self-trust allows you to trust others in a more meaningful way because it's not as dangerous. The world is not as dangerous. So congrats on that.

And then, so how about this? Were you more interested in flow state or clutch state? Flow or clutch? I was actually obsessed with flow state and that was a little bit of an issue for me. And that was why I was so concerned with the distracting thoughts because they would happen when I was in a flow state. And that was a little bit of an issue for me. And that was why I was so concerned with the distracting thoughts because they would happen when I was in a flow state and my brain would go, but you're in a flow state. What happens if you fall out of the flow state, you're going to, you know, mess everything up and then I'd be out of the flow state. And how

do I get back to that? So I kind of had to let go of the idea that I needed to be in a flow state to win or to be at my best. It's like, no, I can be conscious thinking about each little thing and still perform at my highest. So I don't exactly know what clutch state is, but maybe I would choose that overflow state. Clutch is like, Hey, there's a moment. Like, like I finished, I'm a finisher, you know, when, when it presents like full clutch, like game point or need the serve or whatever to get to, you know, to get out of the set. And that's like clutch flow is like when you're stitching the moments together and it's like more harmonious, more, um, more fluid in your actions? I'm going to say, I just don't think I I'm a firm believer in whatever state you're in, you can make it work for you. And you don't have to be in one state

or another it's point by point. And what can you do in this moment? How can you refocus? How can, you know, how can you do better for your teammate? And I think letting go of the outcome a little bit is important and, you know, not being like, okay, it's the end of the game. You know, I've had to learn this the hard way, like I'm going to try even harder to be clutch. You know, it's like, you have to, I I'm always thinking. So, just I don't know I can't pick one or the other yeah yeah that's cool how about Alex yeah I mean I I kind of agree like I think we naturally enter flow state and clutch state but I don't think you can chase those things either like i think

those arise like as a product of like doing the work and being prepared and being confident and you know like those other things and so like i would say that maybe the clutch state has served us a little bit more because i don't think I don't know if we spend that much time in flow state to be honest I don't know like as a team I'm just thinking like we work through a lot of hard stuff where it doesn't always just feel like it's rolling and like on a lot of matches but it wasn't just oh boom we didn't you know we like blacked out and the game's over you know and so um like April said i think we are thinking a lot and so there there are a lot of strings of points where it's not in flow state but i do think that we are able to be

really focused at the end of matches and so maybe i would say that served us a little bit more but i think one of my like kind of favorite stories to tell and i shouldn't be bragging about this because it was kind of a breakdown in my uh kind of mindset but there were a couple matches where I was on the court and like I remember this was like maybe the first match of the Olympics and I was in serve receive and I was like oh my god I'm at the Olympics like and I should be thinking you know my cues and like oh okay like you know wait like I have different passing cues. And I just remember being like, oh God, I'm at the Olympics a couple different times. And I messed up and, you know, I refocused and I got back into kind of what I should

be thinking about. And then in the finals, we were up like 17, 12 or something in the second set. And I remember I was in service even, I was like, oh my God, we're about to win the gold medal. And I shanked the next pass. And then the next point I didn't go up to the net. And they went on a three-point run. Then all of a sudden we only had a three-point lead.

We called a timeout. And I was like, oh my God, Alex, get it together. And we ended up pulling it out and we won. But it's still like, I laugh at it. How did you get it together. And, you know, we ended up pulling it out and we won, but it's still like, I laugh at it. How did you get it together? Oh my God, Alex, get it together. Yeah. I think honestly, it was like going back to my cues. You know, I have certain things that I say to myself before each point that I know kind of get me focused on the right things. And so, you know, simple things like that, that I normally do for every point, but just catching myself. Alex, are the cues concretely? Is it like, keep my frame? Is it, you know, what are the cues? Is it be soft? Like, is it more psychological?

Is it more technical? What are the cues that you work on? It's more technical. So like I, one of my passing cues is wait and see, so like not trying to predict where the ball is going. I like, I try to track it and then go to the ball or sometimes it's like shoulders down because I have a tendency to let my shoulders come up. And so I think it's just something that it's a technical focus. I also think it simultaneously helps my mindset because I'm zeroed in on, on one thing, you know, and I'm not thinking about external factors or whatever. Um, and so, yeah, it was

just, it was a simple refocusing thing, but I, knowing that we got the outcome that we wanted, it's actually one of my favorite memories of the Olympics is just being like, Oh my God, we're going to win a gold medal. And, and being able to be outside of myself for a second and and like, enjoy that moment, even though it ultimately led to a few bad points. But, you know, obviously, if it was a tight match, I wouldn't have wanted that to happen. But it's just something that I laugh about now. I love it. OK, let's wrap it up here. Like, first of all, thank you for your time and your honesty.

The honesty that you guys work from jumps out of this conversation. And it is a asset and a strength and it is relatively rare in the world. So I'm inspired by that. And so it feels really apparent to me. And so the other things that I just want, they're quick hits. Like if you could sit with any master, who would it be? Where would it be? And if you only had one question, what would it be? Oh my goodness. Alex, do you know yours?

Well, I mean the only, I think the only person I've ever really like truly idolized in my lifetime is Kobe Bryant. And I grew up like such a fan and I was a basketball player as a young kid. And I assessed over the way that he played the game. And we actually got to talk to him on the indoor national team. And I remember this is one of the most impactful things I ever heard him say, but somebody was like, you know, how do you deal with pressure? And he said, what is pressure?

And he said, pressure is what other people think of you. Who cares what other people, and it was so simple. Who cares what other people think of you? And he was, he was really honest with us and he was really insightful with us. And, you know, I, I already idolized him, but I did not expect for him to be so well-spoken and intelligent and insightful with our conversation and to take it so seriously. And he, yeah, like that little tidbit, especially like, I'll never forget it, but he, you understand what, by talking to him, why he was so good at what he was, what he did, you understand what, by talking to him, why he was so good at what he was, what he did, you know, it wasn't just that he was a skilled basketball player is that he was ultra competitive, but also very tuned in with what was going on in his mind and what he was

doing and why he was doing it. And, um, yeah, I think that was one of the coolest things that he ever said and that I ever heard him say, and just to be in the same room and to get to talk to him so brilliant cool um for me I don't know I tend to avoid those things sometimes and I don't know if it's good or bad but the reason it you know it's a little anxiety producing for me to, you know, ask other people how they go about things, how they win, because if I don't do it that way, am I not going to reach, you know, am I not going to be successful? And it's like, I kind of just, you know, want to do it the way I believe in and do that to the best of my potential and see what I can create and so like I said I don't know how it's good or bad that's kind of

how I've been like I everyone's like what was the um Michael Jordan series on um Netflix or something like about his life and I was like have you watched it gotta watch it before the Olympics and I'm like I wanted to but I like, couldn't get myself to do it because I didn't want it to make me feel inferior in a way, or like, I'm not as good as Michael Jordan. And so I've shied away from that kind of stuff, but I will say my sessions with you have been very impactful in my career. And they've been very few, unfortunately, but one of two of the things that you said really stuck with me that I've used a ton is one of the cues you guys were just talking about cues, but be big. And I think, you know, that's just so empowering when you're

out there and you want to play without fear. You know, I say to myself a lot, just, just be big. And then another thing, um, because I'm, I'm a believer in, um, maintaining a certain amount of detachment. Cause if you let your goals get too big, it really sometimes is detrimental. So you said something one time about, you know, if you think about this volleyball match in the scope of eternity, like how important is it? And that, you know, was really freeing to me, you know, like who's going to remember this volleyball match or even this Olympics in 20 years. It's you will maybe, but you know, and so for me, that was really impactful. So

thanks for those little tidbits. April. Thank you. It's awesome. It's awesome to hear that be played back. I did not know that. And so what would you want to, this is the last question, last question. What would you want to give to young girls coming up, young boys as well? And then what would you want to give to their parents and something from the inside out? I would want to tell them to follow their heart and do what they're passionate about. There's a lot of, I feel like, pressure on kids these days to be super successful at one thing or another, what their parents want or what their coaches want. And I think we're both good examples of following your heart and doing what you feel is best

for you. And I think it's good to be coachable and take advice, but really filter it through the lens of what feels authentic to you and go after that, because that's really what you're going to work the hardest at and probably be the most successful at. Beautiful. How about you, Alex? Yeah. I mean, I honestly would say almost the exact same thing. Like I think figure out what you want and don't let anybody tell you no and don't do it somebody else's way. And I do look at like the way that parents are nowadays. And it is scary to me because, you know, I was so lucky.

I grew up with my parents being so hands-off. I mean, they were very supportive. They came to my games, but they were never telling me how to play or, you know, how to be on the court or how to be at practice. And that was my space. And I think that's why I fell in love with sports. It was like this total escape and I just, I thrived in it. And I, and we have coaches for that, right? Like that's why you have coaches is because they can teach you that those kinds of things. So, you know, I, I hope that parents go in the direction of backing off because I don't think it serves the kids.

And I hope that the kids can enjoy what they're doing because that is what ultimately drives us, right? Like we fell in love with the sport first, and then we were, you know, and we're competitive and we're highly achieving people. But if I never fell in love with volleyball I wouldn't be here doing it and so I think that the parents can get in the way of that a little bit and so I hope kids yeah I hope they do what they enjoy and even if that's not sports if it's painting or you know whatever it is or computer science or this or that like I just think it's important to follow your passions and to go after it with everything that you have.

I also would say, do something in the real world. Don't try to be an influencer. Do something in the real world. Hey, speaking of influencer, I loved watching you bang balls during COVID, like on this makeshift little 45 degree angle thing. And I loved watching that. And I was like, there it is. That's that fire, that scrappy, you know, resourcefulness that is part of your DNA of being great.

It's like, no, no, no, I'm going to figure this out. I can't go outside. So I'm going to do it in the backyard. Like I loved watching that. So you definitely influence people by being you. Okay. Well, thanks. Yeah.

And being creative should always be part of the process, I believe. And then what book do you guys give out? Like, like what's a go-to? Should I go first? This is an easy one for me. I give out the alchemist all the time. I mean, funny story about this real quick. I have read the alchemist three times at three different tournaments. I've won all three tournaments. The first one was in 2007. It was my very first grand slam. We were in the country quota again, it was me and Jen Kessie and I read the alchemist and we went through 11 matches and won the entire tournament. Like we were the lowest seed to ever win a Grand Slam. So I read it there and then didn't read it again until this, until our first tournament back after the pandemic early in 2021 in Doha, because I was like, I don't know how this is going to go.

We haven't played internationally in a year and a half. So I decided to read it as we were going into that tournament, through that tournament, we won that tournament. And then I'm like, okay, this is, you know, slightly a coincidence, but I'm not going to leave it up to chance. I'm also going to read it going into Tokyo and through Tokyo, read it. I saved like one page for the morning before the final, finished it before the final. And we won the Olympics. So huge believer in the alchemist. I like, honestly, like the messaging for me is really helpful. And so I give that to people

all the time be impeccable with your word I think both of you guys are actually yeah I love that Alex um well my version of books are cookbooks so um I read cookbooks like other people read novels. Um, so I would give out probably the Jelena cookbook. Um, and that is like, I mean, April knows I'm obsessed with food. That's what I do in my free time. I cook and I eat and I take pictures of food and I, yeah. So cookbooks are my thing. Oh, yeah. No, go ahead, please. I just thought of another one that was really good was you should talk to someone.

Have you heard of that book? No. It's written by a therapist and it was extremely insightful for me as I was going through, you know, all this anxiety leading up to the Olympics. And it just, it's based in reality, a little bit of fiction, but goes through all these people's journeys and you can recognize parts of what you're going through and say, oh, this is how they dealt with it. I'm not alone. And so it was therapeutic for me to read.

I also recommend that one. Brilliant. Okay. I appreciate you guys. Thank you for sharing and being authentically you in the world. It is such a gift and a breath of fresh air in this conversation. And I'm in your corner. Like, I appreciate everything

that you've done. So thank you. And, and we'll drive folks to social media and all the other places where they can find you. And again, thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. Awesome to talk to you. Thank you. It was an honor. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for

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