Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Mindset Shifts That Built a Billion Dollar Brand — TheRealReal's Julie Wainwright on Reinvention & Leadership

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

What does it take to rebuild your life after public failure — and bet on yourself again?This week, we sit down with Julie Wainwright — a trailblazing entrepreneur who went from the CEO of Pets.com during the dot-com crash to building The RealReal into a billion-dollar luxury resale powerhouse… all in her 50s.Julie was one of only 23 women to ever take a company public — and she did it after facing national scrutiny and setbacks that would have ended most careers. Instead, she started over with clarity, grit, and heart — redefining what leadership and reinvention really look like.In this conversation, Julie shares:How to lead through failure and chaos without losing yourselfWhy reinvention starts with self-honesty, not confidenceThe mindset that helped her scale The RealReal from her kitchen tableHow to use setbacks as fuel — in business, relationships, or lifeThe inner dialogue and frameworks that kept her grounded and growingIf you’re navigating a challenge, career pivot, or new season of life — this episode is packed with hard-won wisdom you’ll want to carry forward.Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: https://findingmastery.lpages.co/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I had to completely change my mindset. I had to say, I am not going to let that define me or let others define me. How do you rebuild after public failure and then find the courage to bet on yourself again? Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. Now the idea behind these conversations,

it's really simple to sit with the extraordinaries to really learn about how they work from the inside out. And this week's conversation is with Julie Wainwright, a trailblazing entrepreneur who built the real real from her kitchen table into a publicly traded company valued at over $1 billion. She started all of this in her 50s, breaking through a male dominated industry and then navigating both sexism and ageism to build something the world has never seen before. I was at that point where a recruiter had told me no one's going to hire me, and I'm too old. Pets.com is a big failure.

I hadn't done anything compelling since then. How old were you? 52. 52 at the time that you were pitching RealReal? Yes. We talk about what it takes to lead through public failure, how to scale with clarity, and how to keep showing up when the odds are stacked against you.

Chanel personally bullied me. And they were trying to make the point that you can't resell their bag. They were relentless, including planting fakes in the RealReal, of which some did get sold. How about that? If you're in a season of reinvention, or you're searching for a clearer path forward, this conversation delivers hard-earned insights.

I think you're going to want to take with you. I had no fear of failure with The Real Real. You faced it. I had none. Failure is part of your learning. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation with the one and only Julie Wainwright. Julie, I have wanted to sit with you for a very long time. I've been, my family, my wife, and I have loved what you've built as a business. It's been a great tool for us. And the main reason I want to sit with you is because I see your high art

as how you work with people to build businesses that make a difference. And so I'm really excited to sit with you because the life you've lived and how you've expressed that through businesses. So thank you so much for coming in. Wow. Well, it's an honor to be here. Yeah, very in. Wow. Well, it's an honor to be here. Yeah, very cool. Thanks. Yeah. Okay. So first, let's introduce Poppy.

Yep. This is Poppy. She's probably almost five. My little rescue dog. Rescue. Yeah. Her dad was a pit bull and her mom was- As I can tell.

A Chihuahua. Okay. That makes sense. Pomeranian. Yeah, that makes sense. German Shepherd. As far as the DNA tests. Precocious little thing that runs and is already kind of owning the mastery lab here.

It's great. She's left her mark everywhere. So sweet. Okay. I think, I don't know if our community knows that we love animals. Oh, and I really appreciated that. Yeah, so i love that okay all right um julie let's start you you're one of the 23 women to take a company to an ipo

at the time i was like there's been more after but yes i was one of only 23 and there's somewhere like at that time there was like a couple thousand. Probably at least. So the percentage here is dismal. It's dismal. So, I mean, you feel good about that, but you feel more – I felt really terrible. However, and I should go over and check, I did ask NASDAQ to put me on their fraternity board. Because when you walk in and they have all the – we went public on their platform. And they have all the pictures of the CEOs and there wasn't one woman there. So I said, please put me up on the board.

I don't know if they did. I'll have to go check. Okay, good. Send a picture. I'd love to have some evidence because they – you should. I should be. And I think there's been at least four or five after me. And they should – whether it was on the New York Stock Exchange or NASDAQ, I hope they're all there for future people to see.

What is your take on why women entrepreneurship at the radical level of success that you've had have been so far and few in between? There's so many reasons. I think, first of all, women, there's a mindset shift that you have to, you really have to create something big. You have to think that you can do that. And you have to really think that I can do what those other people do. Because I counsel women entrepreneurs quite a bit. And most of the time, they're not thinking big enough. So you have to think bigger. There wasn't, it's a little better, but there isn't a great infrastructure to support women entrepreneurs. And a lot of women entrepreneurs do businesses that are geared toward women. And most people with money are men. And they really don't understand

those businesses. So they're not necessarily getting funded. And they really don't understand those businesses. So they're not necessarily getting funded. And then in my world, which is more the tech world, it does help if you have a degree in engineering or you have in computer science and something in the tech world. And there aren't a lot of women. There's so many reasons. There's no one answer. But I would love to say we're making progress, but it slipped.

Post-COVID, actually, things are getting worse. So it's now, it was barely 2% of all money went to women. Now it's, now I don't even think they're reporting it. It's below, way below 2%. And when you're talking about most, like men have most money, you're talking about venture capitalists or private equity or like bankers that are funding businesses that's right not spending on the products but that are making the business kind of go from i don't know starting starting gates into what you know okay all right um why entrepreneurship for you well i would say first of all, I'm going to go way back, but my dad started his own

company when he was 29. He started his own art and design company. How old were you at that time? I was eight. Okay. And where in the world are we? South Bend, Indiana. Okay. And what was the breakfast table or dinner table like? It was more at night. And he, well, I'm going to give you two pieces of data. When he started the business shortly thereafter, my mother was diagnosed with something she didn't have, but they said she was dying. But she didn't die. She had multiple sclerosis. It was misdiagnosed. My mom was only 28. So it was sort of this weird time, but he had just started his business. But between 29 to 36, he was really building the business and continued. And he loved it, loved it. So he started in our house and then he got an office and he got a partner.

And just every night he would come home, look what we're working on. It's so exciting. We just got this account today. We would visit him in the office and, you know, everything was, this is when artists had boards. So it was like, this is what's on the boards because they literally had drawing tables and they would mock everything up with usually magic markers to take it in, some watercolor magic markers. And so he was always, always excited about what was happening in the business. And his clients went from a buyer, which at that time was Miles Laboratory, so Alka-Seltzer, Flintstone Vitamins. He did some Chevrolet, did some Studebaker to also Notre Dame. But when he was doing the more commercial ads for people,

everyone in the neighborhood was a potential actor in this. It was so much fun. So all of my kids that I grew up with were in some kind of ad or on a, you know, something, not television, but they were there, including all of us would do shoots in the park for the new cars. So it's like, okay, we're going to do a shoot. So we were very involved in the business and it was fun. Okay. So you're, you're hitting on something really important is that entrepreneurship is risk involved. There is stress that's high. I say, I think about entrepreneurship as cold air on your skin.

Like you've got to be able to tolerate that. And somehow your dad created a vibe that was exciting. That was fun. There was an energy about it. There was a hub for your friends and around the dinner table and whatever that there was an involved. There was a pull towards. So you're watching going, oh, so when I adult, I could entrepreneur and I could have a lot of fun doing it. So it wasn't, I don't think, well, the other thing is I took an amazing class at Purdue through an entrepreneurship, but I was still afraid to do it, to go out on my own.

But I'll tell you what I'm. Wait, why? I didn't probably, I'll tell you why exactly. I know exactly why, but I think it was more fear masking. But I kept thinking I had a lot to learn and I really wanted to learn before I went out on my own. So working, when I graduated from Purdue, I was the second undergraduate Clorox

had ever hired in brand management. And I learned so much there. I was the second undergraduate Clorox had ever hired in brand management. And I learned so much there. I was there three years. It was so, they have very structured learning programs for how you market packaged goods. So it was really good. Then I got a call to join a startup. My boss at Clorox had left and his wife had called me to join a startup in Silicon Valley called Software Publishing. And I was 20, probably, gosh, probably 25, going to be 25. And this is funny. I even remember how much I was making. So I was making $50,000 a year at Clorox. And because they were trying to equalize, because I'd come in cheap because I was an undergraduate, they were trying to once you got promoted, they were trying to

raise you up to the people in an MBA. And I looked above me, there were no women above me. One of the people who was a woman in brand management got promoted into HR. That wasn't something I saw myself doing. I got this call to join this startup. And they said, well, look, we don't really have a lot of money. You'd have to take half your salary. And I'm like, I'm all in. And it was, I was living in the city. It was down in Mountain View. But before I quit, I had to meet with the manager of the division I was in at Clorox. And he had a big office, and ready for this, no handles on the door. He had a button.

Talk about power. He had a button under his desk where he could either let you in, keep you in, or let you out. Oh, God. Which is really creepy. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, that was then. So he sat me down, and he said, so you've accepted another job.

And I said, yeah. So he goes, and what's the revenue? And I don't remember. It was really small, like three million. He said, I can raise the price of liquid bleach by a half a penny and make more than that company will ever make. Why are you doing that? And I said, well, it looks like this is the future and I'm young. And if I don't take a risk now, I won't. And then he's like, okay, you can't come back. And then he said something that was really funny. He goes, you know, when you leave here,

these are the smartest people you're ever going to work with. Which I have to say, the people at Clorox, besides the fact it was sexist, but that was then. But the business did have integrity. So that was true. And I still have very good friends from there. And also you were in boot camp. So when you go through something that intense

and we were working, gosh, six days a week, 12 hours a day, because everything was on purpose, trying to make it hard. But I remember I never forget the fact that he said I would never work with these types of smart people again. And of course I worked with people that were brilliant, brilliant after that. So I think, you know, for me, it was like, I kept thinking I had something to learn and then software publishing was fantastic. I mean, we introduced the first graphics package. So it was called Harvard graphics, which was the precursor

to PowerPoint. And I was there working on the product team. But this is also insane. They basically said, who has a passport and wants to set up Europe? And so two of us. So I ended up moving to London in my 20s, running at a boss who got fired. So it was just me running international all over the world based out of London in my 20s. And I lived there for three years. So it was like I was on this fun, growth, exciting time for so long. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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There's something about that. You can square up with risk. There's a risk here. You're not naive to it. And you had an idea of what the future could be. This is the future. I'm young. Now's the time to take the risk.

So can we just quickly talk about how you think about the future? Like, how are you able to cast forward what it could be? And I'm asking you to share how you use your imagination to think about a compelling future later. So it's fascinating because working in the tech world, you're around people that think differently. And so I've been able to gauge myself. And I would say I'm pretty good about five years out. One of the guys on my board when I started The Real Real, Cable Desai, is probably about 12 years, 12, 14 years out. And I've worked with him long enough to know that, like, he's not crazy. He was right for sure, like, wow, that sounds a little out there.

But I'm pretty good with five years. I think for me the key is taking in lots of information, cultural information, understanding technology, where that's going, understanding, and this has almost become part of my brain cycle now, but also understanding what could possibly stop that from evolving. And it's also when you see it, you know it. But I'm pretty good about five years out, sometimes six,

but I have been with people that are much further out there. And the issue with them is it's hard when you're sitting around a table dealing with what is now and where we're going in four or five years to then have someone at the table that's like, well, look, this is really where we're going to be because they sound crazy. Okay. So how do you do that? Like, can you make it concrete? Like maybe when you're starting RealReal or anything? All right. Well, yeah, the RealReal is a good example. Once I got the idea, I knew that, so I have this, I have this idea about ideas.

Okay. Before you shared the idea of ideas, what was the idea of Real Rule? But before you say this, actually, sorry to interrupt. I loved your book. You wrote it. I asked you, this is just to share for the listener, is I asked you beforehand, did you write this? And you said, yeah. I really appreciate how you wrote, the intimacy of the book, the honesty, the way that you walked through how you took bold steps and some of the dark side that comes with it. Well done on the book. And I think it's a very helpful guide for people on their journey to figure out how to design their life in a way where they really want to meet the moment of entrepreneurship or taking risks or designing life that feels aligned. And so this is me saying, congratulations. I really enjoyed it.

My wife enjoyed the book. And we both, like I said earlier, enjoyed the business that you created. Like you solved something that was important for people. Thank you. I did write, I mean, I wrote the book because I didn't think anyone else could tell my story. Yeah. I think you got that right. And anyway. Okay. So the idea of the real, real was, and then we've come back around to what the idea about ideas are. So when I decided I needed to start my own company, I knew I wanted to go back into commerce and e-commerce. And the world, I had been the CEO of pets.com. It was a very, that was in the year 1998. It was very hard to get a commerce site up during then.

Now you fast, because you had to build every bit of the code. You needed real physical servers to keep them warm. You needed, you know, almost $5 million to open your door where, you know, the world had changed. It's now 2010. And I thought, okay, you can actually get a business going for about $100,000 now. An e-commerce business. And what I did is I mapped out what Amazon was good at and what they were bad at. And because I knew no matter what you do, you're going to compete with Amazon. And one of the things I knew they couldn't do was luxury. However, I also immediately thought, OK, they can't do luxury, but I'm not going to do a

luxury brand. But I had it in the back of my mind. And then I was shopping with a girlfriend at a boutique that had a little bit of consignment in the back. And this is a venture capitalist. Her name's Ann Wimbley. We're good friends. We love shopping together. And she bought previously owned goods in that boutique. And I said, wait, you've never walked into a consignment store once we got out? She goes, nope, would never shop in one. And I said, but do you shop on eBay? She said, no, I never shop on eBay. I said, you just bought consignment. And she said, Julie, I bought

beautiful brands at a reduced price. Who cares if they were worn by someone else before? And that was, that's it. And it was because I had that framework in my brain. I'm like, that's my luxury play against Amazon. It clicked right there. Very fast. So I see how you're working. Like you're looking for the gaps to solve a solution. You ruled things out because of no, no, no, no. And then you came back around.

So you're open to revisiting an idea that you had maybe closed off. It was a different version, like build my own, you know, Julie brand or where you started. But you came back around like, wait, hold on. Consignment is interesting. You added one more thing in your book, which was, I can't remember how you got to it, but she trusted the place. Oh, she trusted it. Yeah.

So there were multiple things. I'm like, so why wouldn't you shop on eBay? She didn't trust it. Why do you shop the, why do you, why do you trust this? But she goes, I know the owner. Yeah. I trust. Yeah. And she knows who gave her these goods. So this is the thing that you somehow cracked that I really want to understand is that the real, real is, so describe the business in like two sentences. So it really is a full-service luxury consignment business. So for the consumer, everything's been authenticated. It's priced at an optimal price, and the only certain brands are taken. So it's a curated, although large curation, selection of luxury goods previously owned

that have been authenticated. And it's mostly sold on the internet, but there are brick and mortar stores. And for the consigner, it's full service. We come to your house, pick up your things, we do all the work. So we photograph it, price it, sell it, and you just collect a paycheck. So the point that I wanted to make here is that when my wife would buy something or sell something, there's a trust that it's a credible thing that's being purchased or what we're selling or what she's selling because she's kind of done with the product that you're saying, yeah, yeah, that's the actual design or whatever.

And so you created a trusted ecosystem. It had to be. Yeah. And full service too. But the trusted bit is really important. Like, am I getting what was advertised? Right. And on eBay. You never know. And the dupes and the whatever they're called are so real. So many fakes.

So many counterfeits. It's wild, hell. Yeah. It's wild. It's such a weird business. Okay. So, all right. Now let's go back.

So you had an idea and it happened magically, like bang, through your friend. Right. And you said, I'm going to go do that. Right. So is that how things work for you? Yes. Like lightning bolt? Lightning bolt. But you know what?

I also have this premise where I have an idea about ideas. Yeah. So I figured if I'm getting this idea right now, it's up there somewhere, which means somebody else is also getting it. So I really felt like, yes, I had a framework in my head and I'd done some homework ahead of time. But I always feel like if I'm tapping into it, other people are. So is that like a collective consciousness type of idea?

Well, that's how I talk about it. There's like a stream of ideas that are in the world. They're out there. Yeah. And so the idea is not the rare thing. It's the action on the idea. It's actually what you do, how you execute the idea. And in this case, I was absolutely right.

So there was the RealRail focused on luxury, got funded eventually. But there were about four or five other companies that were trying to do the same thing at the same time. And one of them was ThredUp, which is still there, which is more low end. And the other one was called Poshmark, which was self-posting. And they were saying they were being social shopping, which I always thought was a bit obscure. And then there was a company called Threadflip. I'm talking about at the Genesis. Other ones have come. Threadflip, which was sort of in our positioning, but not really. It wasn't full service and they didn't really think about authenticating. And the real, real, all of us were out raising capital at the same time.

So five of us all meeting with the same venture capitalists. You're meeting with the same ones because it's a small group. So your plan needs to outperform or make more sense than the other people's plans. Yes, to the person you're pitching. And in this case, were your competitors men or women? All of them were men except Tracey was a woman. Okay. So there's that bias that we alluded to earlier.

Well, it's the bias. Plus, they were all self-posting, which is an eBay. So meaning the user did all the work still. And mine had all this back-end infrastructure which people are like oh that's too much work it'll never make money it's too hard but in fact that's the moat I never understood how they were going to differentiate their product to be honest because you know if I just break them down I'm like and ThredUp pivoted so they they're sort of a different thing they started someplace else and then they had an infrastructure and they pivoted. So they're sort of a different thing. They started someplace else

and then they had an infrastructure and they pivoted to full. They do everything the real world does except authenticate, but for $39. So that I never understood. ThreadFlip sort of had a hybrid model, like we'll do some of the work, but you can self-post,

but they weren't going to authenticate. And I thought, well, okay, then they're going to, I don't know what's going to happen to them, but they're not clearly in our space. Poshmark had a whole, oh, this is social shopping. Everyone's going to be doing social shopping, which is true. Social shopping's a thing, but it's a thing on Instagram, not necessarily a resale platform. But they felt like, oh, and they were going to be on fashion. But they felt like a segment of eBay for fashion, but nothing different than eBay to me. So then I had to sell the differences, why our category was different, why our approach to the customer was different, and why the company would get to profitability.

And you said moat, meaning a defensible moat, that if we had this software algorithm and the authentication of the brand. Oh, it's bigger than that. Because if you do all the work for someone, we have a sales team out in the field. So we had people picking up the right products, then shipping to central locations to be processed. Rows and rows of photographers taking pictures. The authentication using AI and machine learning came much, much longer. It was a slower build process.

So we started with just people, people, people doing every task. And when I left the company, we had 1.5 million square feet for op centers underway with about, I think they still have the same number, about 3,300 employees. And you started on your living room table. I did. Yeah. And if I have it right, the sequencing, right. Maybe one of the, okay, let me do two parts of this. You smile when you speak. I know it's so much fun. Right? Yeah. Like there's only one I'm happy. Yeah. So the, yeah, that's good. Right. But there's an energy about how you think about ideas. So we've got to come back to that one more time. But also there's a dark side to kind of going all in.

So this compelling idea that you have, this compelling future that you're working towards, for you to find the gap analysis, to create a moat, to understand your competitors, to pitch this compelling future to sophisticated business people, to be vulnerable in that, and to take the risk of moving from a safe, cushy job to like, I've got to go do this thing. Oh, but see, I didn't have a job. So that's the other thing. Oh, that's right. Pets.com. Had failed. And then, you know, I was at that point where a recruiter had told me no one's going to hire me, you know, and I'm too old. I had too many.

I had pets.com as a big failure. I hadn't done anything compelling since then. So I had to make a decision just to throw in my boots and like pack my bags and, you know, move away or try. How old were you at that time? 52. 52 at the time that you were pitching RealReal? Yes. Okay. And how did you not let the expert, how did you not let them leave a stain on your esteem, your worth, your value, your confidence, your efficacy? Those are fancy words for like

how you felt about yourself. So after Petscom's failure i did let him i mean it was in the press um how what a failure it was it was i mean weird things would happen which has happened to your voice well because i'm reliving it i sort of relive it when i talk about it it was bad well it's a hard it was a dark dark time it was sort of like i it when I talk about it. It was bad. Well, it was a dark, dark time. It was sort of like I had the biggest scarlet A on my. You did. I did. I mean, even when, I'll tell you, I was thinking about it in prep for this.

I was thinking about, I remember going into a class in a bookstore that was having a writing class. And, you know, the teachers like saying, oh, well, you know, what did you do? Well, I just need to show a little bit of background. When I said I was the former CEO of pets.com, she basically wanted me out of the class. So it was sort of this social stigma layer. And when you were just sharing. But that was a small example.

That's a small example, but it's still... Oh, it's still alive. The ostriches, the pushing out, the not good enough feeling that... Well, it's a little bigger because I didn't... I mean, I came from a family that you sort of, you know, you got to kill something to eat, you know? So basically, you got to make your own way. It's not like I came from... In fact, my dad used to say, if I make a lot of money, I'm going to spend it. So you guys better do well. Okay. Thank you, Dad.

But so, yeah. So, I mean, I was like – I had to figure out my life after that. But I bought all that negativity. I embodied it. Like when I look at pictures back then, my shoulders are down. And then at some point, and it really took a while, I had to, it took a long time, way too long, but it doesn't matter because I can't go back. But I had to say, wait a minute.

I had a big life before that. I had a lot of success. I'm healthy. I love solving problems. The tech world had been my world for a long time, and I'd done well. And I had to completely change my mindset. I had to say, I am not going to let that define me or let others define me. And it was almost like I had had enough and I stopped. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body

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clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Can you stay here one more moment to teach something? Okay, which is I'd love to know how you're thinking about yourself in this moment with

the emotions. And let me just do a range. Sure. Which is like, don't go there because it'll be too much. You're a successful entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs don't cry. I'm making things up. Women need to look strong. And I don't want to be the one that looks quote unquote weak by being in touch with emotions. I disagree with that flat out.

But no, none of that. I think what it is, is it was, by the way way the press still asked me about it so it's one of those things that never goes away and and they ask about them they just did because it was the 25 year of the dot com bust so they wanted to talk about pets.com okay and they said it and honestly i don't think i have it still michael but someone in was trying to be nice to me, but they did a whole, which wasn't nice. They did a whole press thing of all the negative press on pets.com. Literally, it filled binders about this tall all over the world because it was emblematic of a dot-com explosion, which actually in 25 years later, it was the precursor to all these other businesses. Timing wasn't right. Timing could have been right. It was really access to capital dried up because you know what other companies started then? Netflix. And he never stopped

getting capital. And his business also went through a period where, you know, no one else was getting funded. He was still getting funded. So he had the right team behind him that wouldn't give up. But these are, you know, they're older businesses. I mean, it's phenomenally successful. But I remember when everything was busting, it's like, no, he was still quietly going along and he had the right VCs behind him. But the funding world stopped. I would say my biggest issue with it when I go back, it's multiple things. One is other companies lost more money than me, a lot more money.

And yet, if you go anything, the puppet's still out there. Everyone still uses it. What's the puppet's still out there. Everyone still uses it. Now, people... What's the puppet? Oh, the pets.com puppet was a big symbol of the dot-com bust. Okay, got it, yeah. And so people... It's a little sock puppet. It was really cute.

Okay. And it had a good brand following. But companies like Webvan lost over a billion dollars, shut down. It was the precursor to door dash and instacart but no one talks about web van when they no one they probably can't even find the ceo but no one scrutinized him but they all scrutinized me yeah and it was saying in the military if you those that lead bleed and you were leading i was leaving and in this case, I, it's not about, I think because I was a woman, it didn't help. All right. So remember women CEOs are rare. I don't think it helped. And I had

a couple people tell me that the, in the media, it's like, like, you know why they're doing this is because you're a woman. So I don't think it helped, but it was so dark that I still get a little angry. I'm very sad. The other thing is I'd been married, but our marriage was under duress when the pets, the day I had to shut down pets, he literally said, and he knew it, it was public, it was a public company. So I've taken a company public twice. He said, I want to leave. So he ran away. And so then if you think about, okay, I'm shutting down pets. I'm going to go home that night. He's going to be gone. And I have weird press showing up at my door. And let's just talk about, I mean, I'm a woman, so 42 years old, married during the big child birthing age.

Like we didn't try not to have kids, but we didn't do anything extraordinary. And I'm like, okay, now I've got, so you have to think about, at that time I didn't think my career in Silicon Valley was over. I just thought I had to shut it down. The press was terrible. I had to get my life figured out. And the press never really stopped. But it was so dark. And it was like everything piled up together. And when it went on past the norm, it took about a year, about nine months to shut the company down. When it kept going on,

and I would say, that's when I bought it. That's when I bought into the whole negative. It was sort of like too raw. It was too much. But a combination of like this isn't me, like waking. It was like a waking up. And also I just remember sitting at a baseball game, and I was with a friend who really loves stats. I mean, records all the stats.

She's really like a little probably on the spectrum, a little weird. Anyway, she had to get all the stats all the time, knew all the stats of all the baseball players. And I'm more of a basketball, football person, but it's really fun to go to baseball. But I'm not knowledgeable about that as much as I am about basketball and football. This is called growing up in Indiana, by the way. And I thought, oh, my God, look at those batters. This one, she's like so excited about this guy. He fails 67% of the time.

And I kept thinking, I failed once and I'm doing this to myself. And I kept, and then I, I mean, and I knew this too. This is the thing when you know something, I knew if I was that negative, felt that bad every day, I'd bring that forward. You know? And it's sort of like every day, if you're, if you're feeling bad about it, you're still bringing it forward, even though you think maybe you're not. And I I'm like I have to stop this because I'm creating my own future by living in in the past or actually taking on how other people define me and it took a lot what were you there were a lot of distractions to keep me from really focusing on myself because it was shutting the company, the divorce. Yeah. So in that, all of that rawness and the emotions that come with that,

I'm imagining that when you say dark, it was depression. Well, it was, but it wasn't like, I'm going to throw myself off a bridge. Not suicidal. No, but it was like, do I really want to go on that hike? Maybe I should just stay home. Do I really want to go to that event? Because I had also gone out to a couple events where I'd gotten chastised publicly from people at the party. And so it became like – So there's some anxiousness that would set on your mind. And also just like, why do it? So it became more pulling in.

And so lonely, isolated, malaise. Well, it wasn't. It was more isolated. But I mean, I had good friends. So it wasn't like, in fact, even when my husband moved out, a good friend moved in because I said, Ken, this is bad because these people are, the reporters are showing up at the house. And here I am trying to sort out my life and not wanting them. They were literally knocking on the door.

It only happened twice, but it needed to happen once. And so I had a friend move in with me for a while. So luckily I do have really good friends. Yeah, and there's a survival, a thriving instinct that you have, which is like I need to be around somebody that I trust and can help me. But it is a pulling in without a doubt. Your circle gets smaller. Smaller, yeah.

Probably a healthy response. What would you say to, let's just do women right now. What would you say to women who are struggling with the external narrative about who they are, what they're capable of, how worthless they might be, and that they've adopted it at some point. And the way that they speak to themselves is dark as well and sad and depressing and full of anxiety. How would you speak to that? Wow. I wish I would have spoken to myself this way. I mean, at the end of the day, you only have one life. And actually, if you let other people define you, you'll never be able to live your own life. And I would say most people that actually whatever they did to me,

it's really more a reflection of themselves, not of you. And you need to separate it. I think your friends and your lovers and your loved ones do matter. I mean, it matters a lot. So remember I talked about some of the people at Clark's had a lot of integrity. Some of those people were there to when, so I did develop really close friends and still have really close friends. And those people know you and they can carry you and they're sort of your life witness. And nothing else sort of matters, to be honest, it really comes down to you only have one life and you need to take stock. I mean, you see it, I see it in people all the time. I work with an entrepreneur who should have launched her business a year ago, and she just won't do it

and I'm like you you've got to do it what I know this has to be what do you think it is what do you think's going I think I know what and she goes I think I'm afraid I said but you love solving problems once you launch things right and she goes yes I go why don't you think of it as you're going to learn you're going to get it right said, I think you're a perfectionist too. And it's not going to serve you because you don't have feedback. Why don't you just say, I'm not going to fail when I launch it. I'm going to be on a learning ground. And, but you see it. It's like, we're, that's, I think fear and buying into other people's agenda is your biggest stopper in life. Oddly enough, when I started the RealReal, I wasn't afraid.

So there was not a risk involved in starting? There was a huge risk, but... But you were not afraid? I wasn't afraid. And also, once I got the idea, which was November of 2010, I launched in June of 2011. And as soon as I launched, I knew. I'm like, this is going to go. I knew right away. And I knew exactly what I had to do. And then it was like, then it was just getting it done. But I mean, we had scary moments

then because I kept thinking we're going to run out of product. And so you have scary moments, but then you put a plan in place to address it. Oh, OK. Because it was one of the questions I had is that you put your house up against the I did. Yeah. Which is a huge risk, you know, and I wanted to know like.

But it felt like a it felt like a plan. Right. Because the vision was so clear and your belief in the potential outcome that you were working towards felt like it was within arm's length. It wasn't too far away. Right. Right, yeah. Well, I figured I'd know right away. How's that?

And I knew right away, meaning if the first sale failed, if the sell through was so aggressive. So then the question is, my whole premise was this is going to be a supply problem, not a demand problem. So was there enough product? Did you have enough of the right product on a regular basis? If I was wrong on the demand, then it would have been a complete failure. But I was so right on the demand because my whole focus had been, I've got to solve this supply problem. The demand will take care of itself. And the demand was, I would like to buy something that is already used, that is of high quality, and I can trust it. There's plenty of buyers out there yourself.

And when we sold through everything we put up on the market right away, I'm like, oh, there's a voracious demand. So I was right. So I was solving the right problem. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for

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And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash findingmastery. Stay here for an operator. You have the vision, you have the ambition,

you have the work ethic, and you need to inspire other people to help. No one does it alone is a first principle that matters to me. And so we need each other. And so when you're attracting people or people are attracted to you to help partner, to build something special that is maybe bigger than you, I want to come back to that. What can you, what can you teach us about

the people that you work with that will make the biggest impact and the biggest difference? What are those characteristics or qualities of people? So I really knew I had to change people's behavior and view of wearing previously owned things for the business to do well. And the only way to do that was to make it cool. Make wearing previously owned things cool. Not like a consignment store. It's not like you couldn't afford the thing. It's like you chose. Yeah, you chose and it's cool and it's unique and it's on trend now. You are on trend. So I wanted to, I always call it, I didn't want to break the romance of the brand. So I had to change a perspective. So I knew that. I also knew I couldn't do that because I'm not the fashion person. So I had to really hire a merchant who really believed what we were doing and could actually

translate that into something cool and, you know, fashion-y. I'm not fashion-y. And so that was my first idea. I was like, I need a great merchant. I need a great merchant. So then it became someone who, and my first employee was a woman named Rati Sahi, who's now Rati Levesque. She's married and is the CEO. But she was a merchant. She had been written up in some of the online sites about being very progressive. She had a little bit of consignment in her store.

She was young. She was willing to take risks. She had worked really hard to actually build up the store. She clearly was stylish where I wasn't. And I would say when I met her, I'm like, so what was I looking at? Work hard, not get paid very much, buy into the vision, and ready to really just do everything. Meaning build the desk, empty the trash. If you have to take the pictures because the photographer was quitting all the time, edit the photos, just do it all. So I was looking for someone who wasn't going to, had a skill set.

She clearly had a skill set as a merchant, but wasn't afraid to do everything else and work hard. Do you hire for skill or do you hire for scrappiness? In this case, I was looking for both. Both. Yeah, right. Well, you're an independent thinker. So I see how that would be really important for you as well. It's really important in a startup because like, for instance, and we hired this woman named Maria, who I write about in the book. And she had a good salary.

She'd been with the company like 14 years. She's like, no, no, no. I want to get into fashion. I'll do anything. I promise you I'll do anything. So she did customer service. She did shipping. I'd be like, can you just figure out how we can get the best rates?

And if we're working with the best carrier, she'll say, I'll figure it out. She didn't know anything about shipping. So you want people that problem solve, that have a good skill set of problem solving and will make it happen. When you give them a problem, they don't say, well, I don't know how to do that. They're like, yeah, I'll figure it out. So that attitude, especially in the startup, is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. You know, there's when we were doing selection at the Seattle Seahawks, Coach Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, one of the framings that he would have about fit, they had to obviously be physically, technically, mentally great. was would I like playing pickup basketball with this person? And so he loved pickup basketball.

So it's like, would I like to hang out in the backyard, you know, like, and play a competitive game? And that, there's something undervalued about the appreciation of wanting to spend time with people too. You know, great problem solver, ambitious, scrappy, all of those things. Skill, if you get it, is great. And then do I like the quality of the person, the way the person feels? Is that an important variable for you? Oh, it's so important. And, you know, I'm still working with, there's a woman that was working in our finance department. And she said, for the first five years that I was there we laughed so much it was so much fun

that I never thought about going to work because see the other thing is we were all aligned on trying to build this business and resell is a weird business there's funny things that happen there's funny things that happen at startup all the time anyway. And we would literally at points, there were times when I couldn't stand up. I was laughing so hard. What a great culture. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. So I think built, so again, fun. So I would say if anything in my life, I've craved, I always wanted to make my own money because I saw too many women who made bad choices as a young girl by not having their own independence and my own money because I saw too many women who made bad choices as a young girl

by not having their own independence and their own money. Oh, so that was a- That was another big lesson. A reference point for you. Big reference. So here you see my dad and his friends having fun at work. And then you see women making choices of his age for the money or for the lifestyle. And the contrast was so vivid. And it's still vivid. Having your own money, I think, is really important. But that was important. And then creating businesses and creating is fun. And creating that and making sure people

join a company because they actually do have a passion for working hard and making it fun it's so much great so let me i'll tell you a funny story about rachi we literally were joined at they have did everything and she's gosh um a lot younger than me which is was great too but i think i know I had more energy than her. I still do. But anyway, so. Not that you're competitive about living a great life. We're always competitive. But at one point, and it was probably two and a half years in, she said, we have to have a talk. And I'm like, okay. She goes, I can't work Sundays anymore. I'm like, what? Are you kidding me? She's like, I'm like, oh my God, you're such a millennial. She's like, I can't do seven days a week anymore. I'm like, all right, I guess if you

have to. But anyway. If you were to advise a startup now, would you say seven days is required to get it going? Or would you say there's a different balance that's required? I think people fool themselves that they think they're going to do something big and work part-time. And I would say part-time in a startup is not seven days a week. And I can tell you, especially when you're the founder, even when you're not physically there, you're working all the time. And you have to. How do you manage that insatiable drive with teammates that are more interested in maybe the work-life balance? Well, those people came later, and it was always hard, to be honest. But at the beginning, it really was people.

I would say until we got to pretty far, probably about almost 500 million in sales, because the company went 10 to 25 to 50 to 100 to 250 to five. And it was sort of people that were all in. And then it was always hard to find people that committed. And look, you have to, people, I understand people need a life. And I wasn't working seven days a week. Well, I probably was, but I didn't expect other people. I wasn't one of those people that set missives at 2 a.m. and expected someone to answer at 5 a.m. I always respected people's boundaries. But then I just wanted complete accountability. So I had to switch because you have to be then accountable for the decisions you make. Cold air on your skin.

And if you are accountable and you can get the job done in a shorter time, then that's fine. And so create whatever lifestyle you want. You're accountable to these numbers. You're still accountable, right. And the only risk with that, and it was always a risk, it can result in a lot, it becomes a process driven company, not an innovation driven company. And so then we had to figure out how to balance that. So the innovation was still coming from Rachi and I talking regularly on a regular basis. But that's not a scalable solution. So the innovation can get sidelined in that way.

Yeah, this is a rich insight. And also, number hitting is a lagging indicator. Exactly. So to be able to pivot quickly, there's a problem to innovation and there's a problem to agility if it's about numbers. And the only time you look at numbers is let's say quarterly. Well, no, we had it daily. We had it, look, I mean, I had the, everything scaled where I had, I knew what was happening every 20 minutes. I need that. I really need that. Oh, I had it set up so literally by, let's say, 9 a.m., I could tell you what the day sale was going to be on

because I had complete pattern recognition without a BI department. I mean, so did all of us at the beginning. I'm like, okay, this is failing. We're going to have to do this. But everything, the business was real-time. In commerce, it's easier in real time. But there is a really, especially with a company that has a lot of processes and put technology in place to scale, having someone focused on that process is really critical. Having someone focused on innovating is also critical. And when I left the company,

I would say there isn't anyone there doing that. Now, do they need it right now? No, but will they need it? Yes. And it's harder for an outsider to come in because chances are their knee-jerk reactions or their ideas is something that was 10 years ago or five years ago and maybe tried

or rejected out of hand. So it's a harder thing. But keeping that alive, think about Apple. And when Steve Jobs died, everyone's like, innovation's dead. Well, I mean, everyone, Tim Cook has been amazing. He's been amazing at process and building a company much bigger and more value than Steve. Not that they're mutually exclusive, but they haven't innovated for a long time. And so the key is, do they have that in their DNA still?

And where do they go? I don't know. I can tell you that an innovator's life within a larger company that has to hit their numbers every quarter and report their numbers is a harder life. And it's harder to keep that alive. You almost have to shell it off, but you don't want it disconnected from the company because if it's too disconnected, it's like what those strange people are doing over there. They're not integrated. It's a tough challenge. That's why companies end up buying a lot of innovation because they don't

have it internally. And then they can kill it. You know, they can kill it if a lot of them kill it, because they don't have the mindset for the innovation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth.

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sleep is just too important to leave to chance. So you're a dragon slayer in a lot of ways. You face radical situations and you do it with a smile. You face the radical situation of a dark phase. You are honest in that approach. You came through with better insight, deeper understanding, and probably a bigger smile. You also face some dragons inside your business. There's, this is two questions. How did you work with Chanel? Oh yeah. Okay. Like, and, and I'm aware that there might be some tiptoeing around this that you need to be for maybe legal reasons or whatever. And also like, what are the most difficult parts of building a business? There's two parts of Dragon Slaying in there. So can you hit the Chanel thing? And the reason I bring this up is because

you're charging, you're surging, there's an energy, you're building, and then you've got a titan that Chanel, that is backdooring, that is blocking, that is demonstratively pulling you away from growing and bigger opportunity because they saw a threat in the resale market. That's right. In the real, real. No, they saw specifically a threat in the real, real. That's how you know you're actually like when the big ones are like, hey, this one's a problem, which is you and the real, real. So how did you deal with that bit? Maybe you can open it up in a story to demonstrate your point. So look, the RealReal is a disruptor in the fashion industry. And I would say it's probably true that none of the big brands, whether it was

LVMH or even Kering, who was a little more open, or Chanel wanted us to exist. But Chanel was the most active and they were active early on in the business because we had a relationship. Active and blocking. And blocking us. We had a relationship with Saks and Neiman Marcus, which at that time were two separate companies. And the goal was to encourage people to consign their closet, then come back and shop at their stores. And Chanel absolutely blocked Neiman's and Saks from working with us. Now, they did it about, we had executed with Neiman's about nine or 10 months. So it actually did help build the brand. But here's what I knew. And here's why I knew they wouldn't succeed,

although they kept hammering away and hammering away. My business was business to consumer. And if a consumer bought the product, they had the right to sell it. So they couldn't legally stop me. They could slow it down. They could, you know, and they did. They used a lot of tactics. But I knew that if I was meeting my, keeping my consignors happy and my consumers happy Chanel would lose so I focused on those things now Chanel personally bullied me they which was

so I mean it was childish personally bullied me it was like they brought me into a conference room to basically denigrate my business and me and I I thought, I mean, it was like who, it was, I mean, it was rude and it was really rude because it was 8 a.m. in the morning. I was living on the West Coast. I was 8 a.m. East Coast time at their headquarters. With a senior leader. Senior leader. Had a three-minute conversation with you. Left, exited to leave me with his IP lawyer who just basically, and I said, oh, we had just opened a pop-up in Soho.

And I said, have you seen the store? And she's like, why would I? It's resale. And then it went downhill from there. And it was, you know, including, she goes, would you like some coffee? And I'm like, I'd love some. She goes, get it yourself. I mean, it was just like.

And you didn't move. No, I didn't move because it's so rude. Really rude. And you know what I love? Share with the listener who hasn't read your book yet what you did, how you ended that meeting. I just got up and walked out. I'm like, I don't need this kind of abuse.

It was abusive. Were you pissed or were you graceful? No, I wasn't graceful. I just said, you know what? We're done here. I was mad. I'm just like, in fact, I might have said, you are so rude. I mean, you're just rude.

Yeah. I mean, that's it. So your most precious asset is your time. Always. They clogged up your time. The senior leader didn't even clog up his time. No, he just, no, he set me up. He set me up for like some confrontation with this person.

He's just a nasty person. And they were trying to make the point that you can't resell their bag. Because when they sell it to the consumer... Well, that's what they would have liked. Yeah. But is it like Porsche or maybe Ferrari that says... It's Ferrari. Ferrari, you can't sell your car within one year or two years.

Whatever. Right. Which is illegal in the u.s it's mine i do whatever i want yeah but i think if you ever wanted to buy another ferrari then they're like no like you're i see what you're doing you're flipping the cars you're like hurting our business like okay so that's what they were trying to do and they they thought the real in fact she said you're my biggest threat you're my biggest you know You're my biggest, you know, biggest fear. And I'm like, oh, here you go. But I knew she, look, they kept at it. They were relentless, including planting fakes in the

RealReal of which some did get sold. How about that? Well, that's not illegal. Because that really hurts your credibility. Because now you're moving a fake Chanel bag. Right. And they're like, look, Chanel. That's exactly what they did. Look what they're doing. Yeah. And that you're moving a fake Chanel bag. Right. And they're like, look. That's exactly what they did. Look what they're doing. And you're saying that is illegal? No, it's not illegal. They can- Implant fakes.

No, I mean, look. It's up. Yeah. I mean, anyone can do it if they wanted to. But I mean, was the Real World 100% foolproof? Nothing can be. Right. When I left there, they were at 99.98 or something percent.

And if anyone had any question about authenticity, we'd just take it back. So yeah, I mean, Chanel tried to block it, but I thought their personal attacks on me were kind of surreal. Well, there's another one you shared where they... So there's your... I don't know, I'm going to make it up, like a 20-foot image of you being celebrated amongst some titan entrepreneurs. Can you tell this story? That was WWD, which is the Women's Wear Daily. It's sort of the biggest event. And they were honoring Karl Lagerfeld, who was the creative director ever for Chanel. but they were also honoring me for the Real Rail. And then they were, and the other, the head of Gucci, the head of, uh, gosh, Patagonia for sustainability. And we're at a

table and I look to my right and I look at the name tag and it's that head of Chanel North America is now sitting right next to me. And Carl's at another table, and we're all going up getting our wines. Did you get to meet Carl? I didn't. I thought he would probably hate me, and I wasn't in the mood to get beaten up by him. And then he died a few years later. But he actually was very entertaining. So I guess the story about Carl, which I kind of love, he just made everything up.

Like any stories he told about himself, it I kind of love, he just made everything up. Like any stories he told about himself, it was sort of everything was whimsy. So you really had to dig for the truth. You know, he'd tell the tale of his childhood. And of course, he was really old. So, I mean, it was just, and I said, oh, no, he just made stuff up all the time. Nothing like the veracity level and his own stories when he was interviewed is like probably at 10 percent. So I've got the head of North American, you know, and I said, oh, you're going to have a bad night sitting next to me. And he said, no, I asked you.

And I said, I bet you did. He goes, oh, anyway, it was, you know, I mean. And that person was sabotaging. They had when he left the table, WWD execs said they tried to get the award. He personally tried to get the award pulled and he moved the name tag so he could sit next to you. Nasty. So, I mean, it's like a physical power move or something. Was he like trying to psych me out?

100%. I mean, but come on. That's just so silly. It's child's play. I mean, by then. For people that, you're playing a different game. Okay. If you're trying to play a power game with that person, they've got a lot of power and

they were trying to flex it in physical ways, in financial ways, in resource ways, but you were playing a different game. You were not interested in power. No. You were interested in building something bigger than you. Right. Period. It wasn't about me. So even, you know, so that- But you've got a 20 foot, you know, like image of you. I know. I know. That was, well, it was Carl and then me, which I bet you someone did that on purpose. So you first walked past Carl, then I was right there. And then all the other CEOs.

But those are massive. Oh, massive. Like Yvonne Chouinard from Patagonia is like an entrepreneur hero of mine. I've never met him, but like what he stands for, purpose over profit. Sure, sustainability, yeah. Yeah. So for you to be up in that high altitude. And, you know, we were – oddly, when you do these things and you get awards,

there seemed like, okay, an award. But that one sort of did matter. It was like, okay, we're here. You know, we're absolutely here. And it was a really special night. And because sometimes you get these awards and there's like, okay, you had to buy the table, you know, to get the award. And this wasn't one of those things. It's like, yeah, we'd love to give you this award and it will only cost you $50,000. And you have to bring all these

people. And do you want two of them? You know, and you're like, what am I doing with my life? But that wasn't one of those. Very cool. What would be, this is dragon slaying again, what would be some of the most or the most, be provocative for a minute, important decision that shifted your trajectory? Well, see, once I took venture capital money in, then that's where I was and I knew I was going to need it. So it really came down to just feeding the beast with money and getting. Going IPO was a big shift. It was great. Some people forget when you take in venture capital money, they have to get it out. There was no natural buyer for the real, real.

Some of my investors had put their money in for eight years and then kept funding us as we went along. So taking the company public, being able to have a financial reward for the investors and the employees was pretty remarkable. I would say what shifted the business was the most, and it was probably the biggest mistake I've made since forever was when I recommended new board members for the RealReal based because my other board members got off to sell their stock except for one guy. And I blew it. And I'll tell you how I blew it. I naively did not consider a value-driven axis when I looked at adding board members new or recommending. You don't really add them when you're public. You recommend them. And I looked at their experience or what they could add in experience and didn't consider a difference in values. And I would say

that people coming from a corporate world being on a, and it was heavily loaded with corporate people after being on a company that was entrepreneurial in nature, that was collaborative in nature, that had high growth, that had technology as an underpinning, that tends to create a more collaborative, fast-moving decision-making as opposed to hierarchical. And I just, I really blew it. So I would say the board members that I recommended were the wrong board members. And then someone told me this, which I think is interesting. Someone told me, a guy told me, he said, you know, the problem with what you did is women tend to recommend who they think will be add the best to the company

and men tend to put on people that will always support them. And it never occurred to me. So I brought on people that I would say ideologically I was not aligned with. And I don't even like them, to be honest. I don't like them as people. And I didn't know how much I didn't like them. So that ended up being bad for me. And I don't think served the company, to be honest, because what I had was one guy on the board who was the last money in, didn't get his money out. And the stock fell pretty aggressively during COVID.

It was a big fight out. In fact, it really, I don't know what it, or last time I looked, it was pretty much below when I left, still low. It's a big fight out. In fact, it really, I don't know what it, or it, it, last time I looked, it was pretty much below when I left, still low. It's popped up and around, but it's been really low. And that person basically was undermining me and he had, and I sort of, and then I handed him a board that had no allegiance at all to me, to me. And we were coming out of COVID, which was very demanding and i was really heads down i had a new cfo and i was motivated to make money he i'm sure he had a lot of pressure

because he blew it he blew it personally let's just say that guy could have gotten off the board and sold his and he didn't so he lost money for his investment so he swayed the board i don't know that for a fact but i that's what I went into it. So you got pushed out. And then I didn't help. I got pushed out. And I didn't help myself. I lost, you know, because I didn't help myself.

Let's just say he probably created this story about me, and then I just fed into it because I just, yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean, meaning I just called him on stuff very publicly and people thought it was a terrible thing to do for your my my new board members thought I was horrible and then I didn't um anyway it just degraded within a few months after that but I mean there's a sadness here well it was very sad because, oh no, it was terrible. I would say it was really bad. And I will also say, which I say in the book,

look, I was also really tired. COVID was hard on the business. We had to do a lot of weird maneuvers to get around shutdowns to get the product up. The business was growing 40% before COVID hit. Within five weeks of shutting everything, shutting down, it dropped. So it was 40% versus a year ago. So it was an 80-point swing. We had to do a lot. We had people freaked out. We had people in the op centers who we had to furlough people. We had, you know, the whole spraying the thing. No one really understood it. I was worried about kids, people dying. And then my top CTO, who was great, said, I'm leaving. I'm going back to Sweden. So he quit. And then I had to fire a

sale. So it was just, you know, I don't know if you say these words on your show, but it was a shit show. It was a shit show. It was trying to hold everything together and hire new people. So it was a bad time. And, you know, and I had a new board. So it was bad. Lesson learned. Yeah. Well, I would say that it's all comes down to values. You know, it's all about values. Aligning. Aligning values. And also, I couldn't, I mean, the people that have been on the board were with me forever. So I couldn't say stay on and don't cash out on your investment. And I honestly, I wish, and none of them were that experienced at this either, but I wish

my old board members would have actually advised me. but I think they did the best they can. Most companies, most venture capitalists don't have companies that go public. It's more of an M&A world. So I would say I wish I would have asked their advice, but honestly, I was asking them advice on things that were going on, the craziness that happened after we went public. And most of them were like, we've never seen this before. So, you know, there's probably, I probably could have reached out more, but I also felt like I was keeping the company alive, doing everything I could. I totally see why you're successful. sharp spark and a appreciation for that when hard times come, that you know what that means and that you'll navigate through that again. I definitely understand your ability to see a vision,

your ability to inspire other people, to lead with a work ethic of value and a passion to be part of something bigger. And it's great that you're going to make a lot of money along the way. I totally see the attraction to be able to be led by you and your frames of reference, both from early childhood all the way forward, that help you make bold decisions along the way that are backed in a plan. You're a systems thinker that also allows yourself to have that intimate connection with your people. Absolutely. You mentioned purpose earlier, like being part of something bigger. What are your most important practices to be connected or to stay connected to purpose? I think it's really understanding your own values and then just keeping yourself aligned all the time.

And it's, yeah, it's a weird time now too, just with all the politics. So it's hard. There's a weird environment that we haven't, I haven't experienced as an adult, but I would say I'm very conscious about it. I'm very conscious about how I spend my time and what I do. And yes, it becomes being more conscious. Julie, I mean, it's so much fun. Thank you for sharing your expertise to going into

hard places in the conversation and allowing me to feel like that sharp spark of brilliance that sits right underneath, in your heart, behind your eyes. That I think is a signature that I will not forget of how you created what you created and how you went about doing it with your people. Well, thank you very much. And thanks for letting Poppy come. Poppy, yes.

And I'm holding the book. And for audio listeners, the name of it is Time to Get Real, How I Built a Billion Dollar Business That Rocked the Fashion Industry. Great read. You know, full of insights. It's warm. It's thoughtful. It's directional. I hope you feel really good about it. I think this is going to help a lot of people on their journey, you know, to figure out how to build something that matters to them. And before you go, what, what do you think of the fashion? You said three, would you say five to six years out is kind of a sweet spot for you? Oh, you know, it's going to be fascinating

because they're really in trouble. The luxury brands are in trouble and the really low end brands are full of plastic. So the, like the Shein's, they've actually now in the looking at the ocean water sampling it, 35% of all microplastics, which are now in our food, come from fast fashion. So we've got this high end area that's really inaccessible, except at something like the real rail for most people, and the low end, which is doing phenomenal damage to the planet. And in the middle, everyone's suffering. So I would say luxury brands are going to continue. They'll continue, but they're not going to see the growth they've seen in the past. So they're going to struggle.

I would say that fast fashion personally is not going to go away, but it does need tariffs because it's in trouble. So I would say it's ripe for innovation with young designers who are thinking differently, but they're going to have to be really scrappy because their money isn't going to be there. But I do think it's ripe for individual smaller brands, but it's going to be in trouble. To build something that is not, quote, fast fashion, plastic based.

And there's people doing it in New York. And they just have to figure out how to scale. See, this is the other thing. There's some people doing great, great things, but they don't want to give away. They're afraid to give away their business. And they've got a nice little business at 10 million. And that's fine. They're barely profitable, though.

And they're working themselves to death. So it's fine. They're barely profitable, though, and they're working themselves to death. So it's going to be new and fresh. I think it's ripe for it is in a disruptive state. If there was one or two or three mindsets that you think are critical for being great in this new way of living, right, the new world with AI and the speed and da da da da, what would you name those mindsets? You have to be really curious always. So, you know, you have to operate out of that and learning, not fear. Look, I mean, whenever there's something new that comes in, fear can actually, fear is

the worst mindset. So curiosity, keep the learning. And if you find fear, you have to actually put it away, put the fear away. The other thing is, and it's a big shift. And once you make the shift, everything will change. Failure is part of your learning. So I would say, again, you have to be a risk taker recognizing the downside, but the downside isn't as down as you think. The weirdest thing happened to me after I failed, when I failed at pets.com. And this is probably why the RealReal worked. I had no fear of failure with the RealReal. You faced it. I had none, none. I'm like, okay, did that, lived through it.

It was a bad time, but we're good now. I'm like, it may fail again. I may fail again. We'll take it from there. Julie, thank you. Poppy, thank you for taking a nap. She's so great. Again, thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks. That was so refreshing. I mean, there's so much insight in there. Emma, who do we have next in the Finding Master hot seat? Right. She was such a bias. Wait, I'm not sure I'm allowed to say that. You just did.

Okay, moving on. Next up, we're switching gears as you sat down for the second time with the myth, the legend, the one and only Alex Honnold. I mean, what do you say about someone who free soloed El Capitan? No ropes, no support. Like he's climbing 3,000 sheer feet on his own. He's on another level. Mentally, physically, emotionally. This was really a fun one

where we were able to reflect back on our previous conversation that we had back in 2018, which for Alex was pre-marriage, pre-fatherhood. And we're able to directly compare his answers then to now. Post-marriage, pre-fatherhood. And we're able to directly compare his answers then to now. Post-marriage, post-fatherhood. We talk fear, we talk risks and values and focus and legacy and what mastery looks like when your life is quite literally on the line.

If you've ever wondered how to manage fear or reimagine what's possible, this one's for you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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