Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Power of Failure: Transforming Setbacks into Success with Dr. Amy Edmondson

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

What if the way you think about failure has been holding you back? What if reframing failure could be a major breakthrough to unlocking your potential?Today’s guest is Dr. Amy Edmondson, a Harvard Business School professor and one of the world’s foremost authorities on leadership, psychological safety, and the transformative power of failure. Her research has redefined how teams thrive, how innovation happens, and how individuals can unlock their full potential.In this episode, we dive into Amy’s framework for failure—how understanding the difference between basic, complex, and intelligent failures can reframe our approach to learning and growth. We also explore the tension between perfectionism and ambition, the significance of purpose in navigating setbacks, and why true belonging is rooted in authentic connection rather than seeking approval.If you’re ready to rethink failure and discover how it can be your greatest teacher, then tune in for this insightful episode with Amy Edmondson._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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in a more productive way? Could that be one of the big unlocks for you? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we explore the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Today's guest is Dr. Amy Edmondson, a Harvard School professor, a global authority on leadership, psychological safety, and the power of failure. And I want to say that phrase again, the power of failure. How about that? Her research has

redefined how teams thrive, how innovation happens, and how individuals can unlock their full potential. Now, in this episode, we dive into Amy's framework for failure, how understanding the difference between basic, complex, and intelligent failures can reframe our approach to learning and growth. We also explore the tension between perfectionism and ambition, the significance of purpose in navigating setbacks, and why true belonging is built on connection, not approval. So if you're ready to rethink failure and discover how it can be your greatest teacher, let's jump into this incredible conversation with you, Amy, and have a conversation about concepts and ideas that I spend a lot of time thinking about. So thank you for your rich work and thank you for this conversation in advance. I'm looking forward to it. So for me, your newest book that you're wrestling down failure and mistakes and really frameworks for going for it and exploring potential as opposed to playing it safe and holding back is a conversation that us helicopter parents or Zamboni parents or those of us who are sheltering mistake-making and failure experiencing from our children, I think is highly needed. I don't think you wrote this book, though, for parents. So who did you write this book for? I think you're right. I wrote this book, and my primary, the audience I have in mind primarily is the managers and executives in large enterprises.

And as I dug in, and this is new territory for me, I began to realize I could seed some parenting stories in there, and some stories and examples from a life well-lived or not well-lived. I mean different stories from people in their personal life rather than just in their professional or organizational life. So the more I dug into this topic of failing well and failures role in success, the more I began to see it as equally applicable to work and life. Yeah, that's so okay, good. So I share that because I know it's for more of the business world. And I'm hoping that parents and partners can also think about how

this stitches into their personal life. Okay, good. I'm convinced they can. I think there's nothing more important for parents than to, you know, neither over protect their children from discomfort and failure, nor to be so lax that anything goes. I, in my last book that I wrote, the, I had a chapter titled that I got so much pushback. I got to save it for a different book, but I got so much pushback from editors and folks. And the title was A Case for Broken Bones, meaning like, let your kids climb trees now. But it was so provocative in the way like you're advocating harm for children. No, no, I'm saying that mistake making can actually lead to

things that are painful. When you overprotect your children from pain or from harm, interpersonal harm or disappointment, you are creating ultimately a very unhappy adult. The intimate connection at home is often underwatered, underhydrated, underserved in many ways. And I'm going to say one thing and then I'll move off it is that what I'm excited about the new way of working, the modern work, is this calling that no longer are we accepting that the extraction model that I'm going to give my best only to the business demands at the cost of knowing my family members in an intimate way. I'm very excited about the shift that's happening where people are like, no, no, no. The business needs to help me unlock my potential and I need to help the business unlock their potential. And when we do

that in tandem, there's this whole one plus one is 11 thing that I've seen in elite sport. And I'm starting to feel that narrative just a little bit more in big business as well. I think that's true. And I think at a deep level, we all want to be a part of something larger than ourselves. And that isn't the same as sort of give it your all and leave nothing left for your family. That's the, I want to be a part of a winning team. I want to be around people who make me better. I want to be part of making them better. And that's meaningful, but that doesn't mean it has to consume 24 hours of every day of the week. That's right.

That's right. And there is a fundamental commitment. And I use those two words together in a very intense way that the best in the world or those that are extraordinary at their craft, they have made a fundamental commitment in their life to go for it, whatever it is. And most of us do not make a fundamental commitment. We're kind of straddling across two, three, four areas across our life and lightly hydrating each one of them. And we don't get kind of that extraordinary thing maybe that we dream of or we celebrate in others. But making a fundamental commitment is hard. And even so, how it relates to failures and mistakes, it heightens it. And so, okay,

have you made a fundamental commitment in your life? I think I have. And as you were talking, I started to think, yes, and I also have made the error especially in the last 10 years of saying yes to more things than I should there's a you know brought up to be nice and generous issue that then will lead me to over commit and not actually do it as well as I should be in all the things I have said I will do. And so, you know, when I say yes, I think from an early age, I made a fundamental commitment without initially knowing what it would be exactly for. But as I achieved some level of success as an academic, and then a little bit beyond, I haven't always managed the,

well, I've certainly not at all managed well the spread too thin problem. And that's really quite at odds with making a fundamental commitment. It is. Yep, it is. Okay. So let's, the reason I wanted to bring that fundamental commitment up, and that's a fundamental way to organize your life towards said ambition, said desired purpose or goal, is that it heightens and it creates tension around mistake-making and failure. And it moves from an intellectual idea, which is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mistakes are part of it. I'm going to learn from it. Failures happen. I'm going to learn from it. And it becomes embodied where it's like, no, this is my identity. You don't understand. I've got to be great or you have to be great. And now we've got an environment

where people are tight and constricted and not loose and free and exploratory. Yeah. So that's why I want to see if you felt that tension personally. Yes. And it's a little bit the tension between, I mean, the things that drive people toward perfectionism, which are not helping, versus achievement or, you know, ambition to make a difference, let's say. They're very much intention, although they might at first glance look like they're taking you in the same direction. I love the framing because under the surface, they're very different. Very different. It's a different mindset.

Oh, it's a different, completely different. Yeah. One way it's different, I think, is that the perfectionism is ultimately me worrying about me. And the other is external. It's me driven to get something done that I believe may matter. And it starts, I think that, okay, so we're still talking in theory and I want to get to your framework for failure, the types of failure and frameworks for making cause-worthy, notable, important types of failures. But so do you see yourself as part of a coral reef or an individual masquerading as somebody who's part of a community? Which way do you frame the way you experience yourself? Oh, gosh. That's a really interesting question. And I think, you know, I think I'm honest if that I haven't gotten,

I would never have gotten anything done without all of the supports and colleagues and just enabling structures in my life. So that has made me part of a community. And the very act of being a researcher is to immerse yourself with people in organizations and elsewhere, and the very act of being a researcher is to immerse yourself with people in organizations and elsewhere. And the very act of being a teacher is to do the same, but in a classroom. So I can't do any of those things without being a part of a community, but I'm a part of multiple

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right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I, yeah. That's very helpful. It's very explanatory because I often wonder why am I not more of a perfectionist? Because I have I have all of the DNA for it, really.

Are you built? Is your psychology built on anxiety or is it built on like? So most people that are exceptional, you you leading the charge in this conversation, have some underpinning of why they're working so flippant hard. Well, is it fear or is it love? I think it's more love than fear, but I will certainly not say I'm without anxiety. And anxiety grips me at moments, usually when I'm at risk of missing a deadline or at risk of letting someone down. But I think that's different from a fundamental anxiety that is just the motivating anxiety. I think it's more about the almost certain confidence that I'll fall short in my major aspirations.

And if you fall short, what is so bad about that? If you fall short on a deadline or you produce a book that is marginally good as opposed to exceptionally well. Or even if I just fall short, at the end of my life, I didn't really not just achieve, but I wasn't you know, I wasn't as good a person as I aspired to be. And I think the answer, so it's not just, you know, external stuff, but I think the answer is, so what? I mean, I think for me, I know it's a given and I am okay with that. Chris Argyris, who was one of my wonderful mentors, he talked about how it's a given and I am okay with that. So Chris Argyris, who was one of my wonderful mentors, he talked about how it's hard for people to learn when they're brittle and a lot of high achievers are brittle. And I think the word is very much what we're talking about here. And

I said to Chris, it does worry me because, you know, I am a little brittle. He says, yes, but you're not brittle about being brittle. And that was it, right? That's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I have this ability to step back and say, wow, look at her. She's, you know, she's got these problems, these flaws, these sort of anxieties, these, you know, even the inherent laziness that I can notice at times. But I'm okay trying to keep doing better.

That's all I can do is try to keep doing better. That's cool. You know, it's cool that you made a decision to actually make it really tangible, laziness or whatever it might be. There'll be more of that in this conversation. There'll be more moments to choose this conversation. There'll be more moments to choose how much you want to bring yourself forward. So let's start with your framework on failure. And let's start with why talk about failure right now. Let's talk about what your

framework for failure is. And can you just go to town on it? Open it up. So I've been studying failure, largely in organizational settings, but I guess also in my own life, for years and years. And one thing is inescapable. Failure is a part of life, and failure is a part of progress in any field. And yet, I think most people don't think in a nuanced enough way about failure, so we have a knee-jerk reaction to it. We have an emotional aversion to failure. We don't like it. We don't want to confront it. It makes it

hard to learn from it. And I think part of the challenge there is we don't do a good job of distinguishing among different types of failure. I've identified three really archetypes, basic, complex, and intelligent failures. And as the names imply, the intelligent failures are the good kind. I call that the right kind of wrong. An intelligent failure is the undesired result of a thoughtful foray into new territory. So an experiment. I try something I've never tried before, whether that be a scientific experiment in a lab or picking up the game of golf. There will be failure in new territory. And that's unavoidable. And it's clearly and obviously a part of progress. And the other two, basic failures and complex failures, are

not good news. I mean, we still learn from them. I learn from them every day. And we also are equipped and should exercise our skills to prevent as many of them as possible. A basic failure is one with a single cause. We're in familiar territory. You know how to get the result you want, and maybe you're not paying attention. Maybe you make a mistake. We're all human, but you get a failure. You know, you text and drive and get into an accident. That's a basic failure. Don't do it, please. A complex failure is one that is caused by multiple factors interacting where any one of the factors on its own would not have produced a failure. So that's the perfect storm. That's the supply chain breakdowns during the pandemic. It's not one thing. It's a handful of things and their interactions are what really give rise to the failure. Not all, but many complex failures can be prevented when people are speaking up in a timely way or, you know, catching and correcting each other's errors that might be just small things.

But if we catch each other, we can sort of ensure that something goes the way it should. Okay, so basic failures, texting and driving, as an example. It's a really nice, clean one. Single cause. Simple, single. Yeah, single cause. Complex would be, as you've written, the Columbia shuttle tragedy in 2003.

There was lots of things that went into play for that ultimate failure to take place. And then intelligent failure is when you're out pursuing something that hasn't been done before and you need to learn in the real environment because nobody has brought back those insights and secrets or not secrets. No one has brought back those secrets of the universe, I suppose. Right. That's interesting. Yeah.

So where do you put the Titanic? The Titanic is a complex failure. And it's a highly preventable complex failure. And the full story of the Titanic, and you mean the 1914 Titanic, right? I do. Yeah. And the reason I'm... I want to separate that from the Columbia shuttle for two reasons. So keep going on the Titanic. I do. Yeah. And the reason I'm, I want to separate that from the Columbia shuttle for two reasons, but so keep going on the Titanic. So to begin with, I mean, the Titanic was not, you know, brand new territory. You know, in many ways it is like the shuttle because we've done it before. We've had, we've had beautiful ocean liners. Now this one was grander and larger. And many corners were cut. I mean, the choice to do single hull, especially up front,

the kind of putting on the blinders to ignore weak signals that this could be at risk, that we've got some pretty big icebergs out there in the Northern Sea this year, that sort of a race to get to New York quickly and show off. All, you know, a handful of factors came together to create a failure in really quite familiar territory. I mean, this was, we did know in 1914 how to get a ship safely across the Atlantic. Okay. So that clarifies it with great clarity. It's my judgment. I'm not a Titanic expert, but that's how I see it. Yeah. So you're looking at some of the elements that could have, were known at the time,

but they kind of mismatched in this colossal way. And including, I mean, the only thing that sort of veers it, this part is basic, is not enough lifeboats, right? That's an act of extreme hubris or carelessness or both. Thread mistakes and failure together. Mistakes happen. They are part of the everyday. Yeah, so thread those two together. We are fallible human beings, full stop. We will continue to make mistakes, which is why I'm excited about teamwork where I'll make a mistake, but you see it and you catch it, and then together we're okay. The team is okay. But a mistake is an unintended deviation from existing knowledge, process, or rules.

And it's unintended. If it's intended, that's sabotage. But an unintended deviation, it might be through inattention, exhaustion, ignorance, whatever. But it's unintended. And not all mistakes produce failures, right? You could make lots of mistakes that just, it ends up not harming anything. Maybe you failed to follow the recipe,

but the result is delicious. It's not a failure, it was a mistake. Whereas some failures are caused by mistakes, but not all mistakes will cause a failure. And not all failures are caused by mistakes, but not all mistakes will cause a failure. And not all failures are caused by mistakes. Yes. For example, I can make a mistake by, I think I've heard you talk about leaving the milk out on the counter, right?

But I catch it in time and it doesn't go foul. So I've made a mistake to leave it out when I meant to put it in the refrigerator. Okay. So that's kind of an easy one. Let me do a sport one. I was with the Seattle Seahawks for nine seasons. We won a Super Bowl in dramatic fashion. It was like, it was an amazing, almost easy looking win.

Nothing is easy in elite sport. And then the next year we got back to the Super Bowl and we lost in dramatic fashion. On the half yard line with just seconds to go, the whole world thought that we were going to kind of walk into the end zone. And the coaching staff decided to throw the ball instead of run the ball. The throw was pretty good. You know, like if Russell's listening to this podcast, Russell Wilson's listening, he'll go, what do you talk about, Gervais? Like it was on the money.

And but it was like, could it have been literally just a few inches better on target? Yes. And could the receiver have done something just a little bit better to figure it out? Yes. And could the receiver have done something just a little bit better to figure it out? Yes. So would you call would you call that a failure or a series of mistakes? Well, I would defer to you on the football. But from what I understand of your description, those throws are in a sense they're they're they're small errors. They're not giant errors, but if you wanted it here and you got it over here, it's a small deviation from what was optimal or desired. And even you had athletes who are capable of producing nine out of 10 times,

the throw would go exactly where they want. So those are small mistakes, and they came together to produce the failure of losing the game. That is absolutely a failure. You know, you could probably tell it in such a way that this was, you know, an intelligent failure in new territory, but given the athleticism and skill of those players, I think you'd have to call it – that doesn't make it blameworthy, by the way. I never think of mistakes as blameworthy actions. Sabotage is a blameworthy action. But we will all make mistakes and sometimes we'll make them at the most inopportune time possible. And so making a mistake – let's say the quarterback, Russell Wilson, threw it like an egregious,

like he rushed it and it came out and it went to the wrong person who was triple teamed. And like, that would be a mistake. Yep. And it would be a failure. Yes. I mean, so I think of a failure as a result, you know, an outcome. Okay. Rather than an action.

Okay. Let's pause on that because I have a hard time seeing, and this might be it that I'm just playing tricks with my framing. I have a hard time seeing an outcome being a failure because I want to play this long game in life where it's more information. So when I read your title, I was like, oh, this is good. And then I thought, what is wrong with me? I don't see failure very often. I see lots of mistakes. And I can point to some real failures, but a loss of a game doesn't feel like a failure to me. It can for many people. say what is wrong with me is an absolutely wrong question it's what is right with me because what you're really saying to me is that um i am aware enough thoughtful enough and and long-term thinking enough that i understand that these

things that others might see as failures are actually setbacks. So honestly, I don't care what you call them. You know, so I guess part of my hope is to detoxify the word failure. Failure is not an ending. It's an outcome today, but tomorrow's another day, right? So if you fail this year's Super Bowl, you wanted to win, right? You didn't win. It's not the end of your life. It's not the end of your career. So it's...

For some, actually, it could be. For some, it could be, but that's okay. You still put it to good use. Even if you will never play football again and you go out from the sport, having just lost the Super Bowl, you have still gained enormous experience, you know, relationships, you know, the personal lessons and the rewarding experiences you've had are yours forever, right? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So let's just, so I guess, you know, I've had this conversation before where it's,

but why don't, why don't we just, why don't we just get rid of the word failure? It's like, well, how about we just detoxify it? Like we're okay with, like, because if we start calling things euphemisms like setbacks, then we're sort of saying, yeah, failure is so bad, we don't want to use that word. Yeah. So I like where you're taking this. And I think that's probably why consider the thoughtfulness of the long game of life. And I'm really interested in information and experience. And I'm deeply interested in the psychological frameworks and psychological skills to help people experience experiences in the most beautiful way right and sometimes those experience have experiences have really prickly emotions involved in it yeah right and so how do like so there's a skill there so when when we walked in from that second from that loss in the super bowl though i've never experienced a locker room like that before. There was, I'll say an owner, not to say exactly who it was, that was like in full tears.

Right next to me was one of the most alpha competitive, six foot three radical alpha competitors, like with this rage, unwrapping his wraps from his hand, screaming at the coach, why? And then I see a six foot eight, um, like just tears in silence. I see a six foot four who's looking at me like shrugging, like, what do I do with this? And then I see another, another six foot four, 265 pound man walking into the middle of the room, kind of giggling and laughing. And so the range of emotions was so intense and some have healed from it and are exponentially better because of that

hard experience. And some I think are still caught in a trauma loop. So would you say that those that have experienced post-traumatic growth and post-traumatic stress, that there's, would you ascribe like some sort of arc of failure and success? Or would you say, no, you got to even pull this out even longer? Like it's not, it's. I don't think I need to or can judge where it goes next from that moment. I mean, I can imagine the emotion in that moment, the pain, the regret, the anger, the sadness. And I think they aren't 100% predictive of where people will go next and when, whether, and how quickly they'll recover and make it become a part of their further growth as people.

And some people get stuck. You know this better than I. But so long as you can find a way to commit to growth, then there's always a path forward. Yeah. And then what is that line in your head about your head? What is that line for you about being honest with the experience and then kind of justifying a growth mindset? Like, hey, everybody, it's going to be fine. We'll figure this out. And really, that person isn't being honest with the experience. And they're just kind of running over it to not feel the disappointment of something not going the way that you hoped it would go. It's a setback from hope, a setback from a dream, which is really challenging because

it's so foundational to living a great life is to have hopes and dreams. And this thing is like, you're not getting your hopes and dreams. It's hard to know the answer. I mean, I think it's, I'm not an advocate of the sort of happy talk. Just, oh, it's just okay. It's a learning experience. And I'm now like, going to move on, dust off, and not feel bad anymore. I think that suppression may not be the right answer. I mean, it's hard to say for how long or how thoroughly, but it's probably the case that you do have to allow yourself the grieving, that you have to, and that isn't going to be one fixed time period that's the same for everybody

but be honest be honest with yourself be honest with others this feels lousy um do i wish you know if i could roll back the clock and redo that play would i absolutely in a heartbeat um live eat. Live with it, but don't dwell in it indefinitely because you don't do yourself or your loved ones any favors that way. I've had this working definition of failure that your book is challenging it for me, which I appreciate. And it's born out of people that live and operate in some of the most consequential environments, action sport athletes, operators, and military special operators. And so I'd love for you to just respond to it and see, well, I'd just love for you to respond to it. So for me, failure traditionally has been the inability or the unwillingness to go for it. And so can you put that into your framework or just have a response to it?

So my response is, first of all, I completely agree. I saw on the internet recently, I think it's Robert Ferraro, did a little sketch where he said, this isn't failure. And it was a bunch of darts on the dartboard that missed the bullseye. This is failure, where it was a dartboard where the darts were all nicely hung on the wall. So it's, and that's certainly an outcome of perfectionism, you know, that risk. I don't want to try unless I'm going to nail it, in which case you're going to give yourself only easy tasks or take easy courses, et cetera.

The fixed mindset versus the growth mindset comes into play here. But I agree. I mean, I think the inability to go for it at a larger level is a kind of failure that is avoidable. You know, I think part of health is learning that it's avoidable, learning that you can choose to go for it and come up short from where you'd really hoped to arrive, but that that's okay. That sort of going for it is better than playing it safe or playing not to lose.

Billie Jean King, who I quote at the top of chapter eight, says, losing a tennis match, for me, losing a tennis match is not failure, it's research. And I think that is getting at the same thing, right? There will be losses, there will be disappointments, but let's not have them be the kind that happened because we just didn't try. Yeah. And where I go, the subtext of inability or unwillingness to go for it, how that's born out of these extremely consequential environments. Not necessarily risky, by the way. Okay.

Just consequential. Just consequential. And risk is met like when I make a mistake in assessing my internal skills relative to the external demands. That calculus is a radical mistake that people can make. And those that operate in highly consequential environments for an extended period of time are exceptionally skilled at knowing their internal skills

and mapping that against the external demands. Most of us do not have that calibration. That's a great point. Yet we're actually quite numb to those two variables. Yeah. And so this inability or unwillingness to go for it is, for me, it's pointing back to the psychological skills. So if I have the physical skills, the technical skills, but I still have the inability to go for it, and I've been thoughtful about risk, that is a breakdown in psychological skill building that was not properly front-loaded

before the demands of the moment. And that play it safe, play it small is the outcome. Yes. And that will keep you alive. That keeps people on the edge of whatever alive. Yep. But when they've spent five years of their life having technical and physical skills to get to the edge, to make that leap, whatever analogy we're talking about, and because of their psychological skills

have not been properly invested, I find that to be the most egregious of failures because we are so capable of this internal skill set. It's a form of waste and it feels so wasteful. I've never heard that. I've never heard that. Keep going. Waste is the production of unnecessary. So we've got this fantastic person with skills, with ambition, and they're holding themselves back because they're afraid of the disappointment that might ensue. All of that capacity is now being, not all of it, but the portion of it that's not being used

is waste. I love that. That's a new thought. I don't know if that's new to you, but it's new to me. And thank you for that, Jim. What do you think is the great fear for humans? I think the great fear is being kicked out of the tribe. I'm sure you haven't read my book. I'm going to send you my book. I think you're going to love it. Thank you. The First Rule of Mastery is the title of it for fun. And the subtitle is Stop Worrying About What People Think of You. The Great Fear. That's the Great Fear. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And we think, you know, if you really look into your thinking and, you know, why are you so upset that you're going to be late for that meeting? You know, why is your heart rate up? Why is your, you know, palm sweaty, whatever? Well, they might be mad at me well so what well um i might like i don't know

lose my job or not be invited back or all of those you know if you you trace out the logic thread to the end well so what well i'll you know starve to death or i'll you know or i'll be thought worthless you know it's it's just it's just, it's about that. It's, it's really at that level that, that the being kicked out of the tribe really means dying. Because at one point in ancient history, it did. It was. And so belonging is at the center of safety. And so we play all of these little subtle, nearly indetectable games to belong and to be safe. To belong, to be seen as important, to be seen as whatever. So I have a question for you, which is, if you've thought about this, what might be the effects of social media, which is a relatively, in our species, new phenomenon on these issues

that we're talking about. Well, okay, so I like that you said on these issues, because social media alone is not like a problem. It's like a way to disseminate, it's a way to connect. Right. But when we have this underlying need to belong that is left unchecked and unexamined. And we see people living what we think is a great life, which is actually their highlight reel, not the actual content. Not their regular day. Right. That it is, we are unequipped to work with that bombardment of,

quote unquote, visual success on such a regular basis. So we are unequipped because we have not done the internal discerning work to say, first, who am I? Not who am I relative to how well I do what I do next to you, but who am I? Which is, I think, the rite of adulthood, the rite of passage to adulthood, who am I? And what am I going to do with this brief time on this spinning rock in this body? And I have it with this made up language that we're trying to figure out how this stuff works, like what am I... So I'm talking about purpose. So when we get those two things in place, which are hard to do the internal work, and I say hard, and I want to almost like re-examine that word because there's a challenge to do the work. And in that challenge becomes a great opportunity to not get wagged around by social media. So my son is 16.

He has not done the work yet. And so he says, yeah, but like, you know, my friends have it. I said, right. Like, I understand. And I'll tell you a funny story. Like, so he does not have social. He has Snap so he can communicate, but no other social media is he, is he, um, bombarded with. And, and this year his school, like many schools, I think, um, decided to say no cell phones

on campus. So as a 10th grader, I was like, okay, so what do you think Grayson? And he says, um, well, I think people are annoyed by it, but I think we all know dad. I think we all know that it's probably a good thing. Yeah, that's wonderful. Isn't that cool? Yeah. So he's not prepared properly.

So what I would say, step one, if he hasn't done the internal work, which, again, there's a lot of nuance in what I just said on that internal work. Most adults have not done that work. Right. So it makes it hard. I'd say use it as a sharing mechanism, but not a telling mechanism. So share ideas. Don't let the ideas tell you who you are. And so it's a broadcast as opposed to a receptive. So how do you think about it? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years,

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adding more it's about choosing better and when your day demands clarity and energy and presence the way you prepare for it matters if you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it i'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. similarly to you. And it's it, it has to so I think it heightens these dynamics that we were talking about, about rejection and fear of what people think of you are as old as the species. But they are being heightened and sped up and even transmogrified by social media. What does that mean? That means transformed in a grotesque way. Oh, say the word again.

Transmogrified. Where did that come from? Gosh, I don't know. I'd have to look it up. I love words. Transmogrified. Transmogrified. You know, so it's not just transformed. Transformed actually usually means positive, but it's changed in a very kind of, you know, a way that's quite damaging

or problematic or monstrous, not quite monstrous. But I think the, because it's the addiction phenomenon that you can sort of just, you want to go on and find out has someone liked my photo or my comment or what have you,

is a new kind of sped up form of this old quasi-pathology that we have. And I think, you know, you said belonging, like your subtitle was Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, which is a very healthy idea. And it's funny because I think you're right, like belonging, we err in thinking that belonging, because we do want to belong, but that belonging is about admiration rather than connection. Because the kind of belonging that we need, deeply need and benefit from is sort of, you know, high quality relationships, you relationships. And that's now, we now have the old Harvard study and so many other studies, too, have shown

that the best predictor of health and longevity is really high-quality relationships in your life, whether with just your significant other, your spouse, your community. But that's more important than just about anything else. So we do need each other. We absolutely are social creatures. We need each other. But when we fall into the trap of thinking of belonging as it'll be terrible if you're not admiring me at all times, because then I'm putting myself above or on a pedestal or I'm no longer human because nobody is just admirable at all times.

We're all fallible. I mean, we created – people want to complain about Jen whatever. We created them. We raised them. We supported them. We doubted over – doted over them in a way that like, they're like, well, this is how it's supposed to be. So, and I think that we tried our best in many cases, and we're going to learn a lot from them. And I'm super bullish on what they

have to offer because they're like, look, thank you for teaching us a way. Your way is not right. You know, you Gen Xers, you whatever, like your way is not right. You don't even know your family. You don't even like how you feel in your own body. Like that's not right. And so they're going through some radical anxiety right now themselves, and they're going to teach us something. And so again, I'm not calling that a failure. No, no, no, no. We just, they have to learn. And we all do have to learn how to care as much about each other and the whole as we do And I wonder if you're going to go to psychological safety or not, but do you have a practice? Well, psychological safety is not a practice.

Psychological safety is an emergent property of a group or a family that develops a kind of confidence that they can be, everyone can be themselves and bring the truth forward and offer a dissenting view or ask for help when you're in over your head or admit a mistake, you know, that's, that's, that's, that describes this sort of an environment, it's a learning environment basically, but the practices that can help us get there are basically reframing, asking good questions, and catching yourself, monitoring your response to things that happen. So those are the practices I try to practice. And one way that I'll illustrate that is

I wrote about from just a wonderful psychiatrist named Maxi Maltzby who used the term sort of healthy thinking practices. And he had a kind of six-step process, which it's hard to remember six steps, but my mentor at the time, Larry Wilson, who I worked for, said, it's really, Maxie, what you're saying is three things, stop, challenge, choose. And that's a thinking practice. It's sort of you catch yourself, oh, this is awful. I'm going to be late. You pause, you breathe and just take a look at how you're thinking about the facts of the situation. Is it helping? Is it healthy? Is it accurate?

And choose the more helpful, accurate, thoughtful path forward. And so that's a kind of, it's a skill, I think. And it's a practice that I try to practice, but of course not always reliably well all the time. Okay, so the emergent property of psychological safety. I feel like I've been this distant advocate for you for a while. And I'm not sure you would totally approve. So I want to run something by you.

Okay. So I approve already, but no, let's see. So, so in, in the corporate space, people will say, you know, we need to really develop psychological safety. And it's usually in a response to tension in relationships and people feeling afraid to speak truth to power. And so at some point, the phrase gets put out there, and it's almost like there's a little bit of a weaponization of it. Oh, yes.

Oh, yes. Not even just a little. Okay. Like a lot. All right. So we're on the same page here. Yeah. And then I'm the psychologist in the room, and I say, great, for what aim?

Yeah. And they look at me like, oh. Sacrilege. Yeah, right. And I say, for what aim? And they say, well, you know, like we're not getting along or we're just not like we can't be our full selves here. And I said, for what aim?

And so, well, we need to bring our whole selves to work. And I say, holy shit, what do you mean by that? You know? Yeah. You're singing my song, Michael. This is my song. Okay, good. I didn't totally appreciate the tonality of it, you know? And so full self, whole self. And so then I'll say, like for what I am, and I say, look, here's what I think the ultimate gift of psychological safety is, is that so we can work well with tension and we can hold the tension together to create something amazing. And that tension is really difficult. And if you're trying to move away from tension, it ain't going to be psychological safety, the way that you're

talking about it. And so people are like, we don't want more tension. I go, well, you don't want greatness. You don't want to know what you're capable of. You don't want to be a great teammate because the psychological safety allows us to hold that tension together without the fear that we are going to be pushed out because we are trying to do something great, which is hold truth to power. So anyways, and I can go on and on. Exactly. No, exactly.

So you've said it so well, and I'm so grateful, and I'm so annoyed. I try not to be. But that people are taking, first of all, they're either treating psychological safety as like a lever that someone else is responsible for flicking somewhere, you know, and then now we have it, and they just refuse to do it, or, and or, as a kind of end in itself, and a kind of a, it becomes this sort of reified state, you know, we, well, and then it does become vulnerable to being used as a weapon. You took away my cycle. You gave me feedback. You took away my psychological safety, which is my least favorite one because it's ironic that it's meant to be a state where we can, in fact,

give feedback. Not that it's easy to do so, but we understand it's necessary and part of doing a great job. So in elite sport, I think you'll appreciate this. I'd love to, like, maybe you've studied this in a deep way, but it'd be really fun to hang out with you at practice on the sidelines and just kind of learn from each other. But in elite sport, there's something extraordinary that they do that gets missed. We see them on TV with all these great results, but what we miss in practice, we miss the fundamental commitment they've made to organize their life to be their very best and to be a great teammate, which is the biggest rock to get in the container, I think.

But then at practice, to get better, they have to go for it. uncomfortable space where they make mistakes in front of their coaches who determine if they're going to play or not, in front of their peers who are trying to take their job. So this is mistake-making in a public way with the best in the world, your teammates, trying to support you and take your job in some cases. The vulnerability there is so amazing, but the commitment to get better is bigger. Right, right. And yeah, that's the fundamental commitment. That's it, right?

Because you will never make the vulnerability go away. You can't. So don't even try because you can't. You just have to make the commitment to where you're trying to get to larger. Okay, so what is your tolerance for mistake making? And I'll make it super concrete. Route runner, the receiver is running to get the ball, and he's running, let's say, seven steps. He's supposed to put his left foot in the ground

and then rotate over his right shoulder and hold the ball, hold his hands like he's making a W, okay? And when the ball's a little low, he has to bend down just a little bit, but still keep the W on his hands to catch the ball. Well, that's the new skill that they're working on. He runs seven,

seven, full speed, bang, bang, bang, left foot in the ground rotates. And the ball's a little low and he does the automatic thing, which the coach is trying to change,

which is to put the hands like open, like, um, like I'm holding a bowl and the coach says, no, no, is to put the hands like open, like I'm holding a ball. And the coach says, no, no, no, no, no, no. I know you caught the ball and whatever. Do it again. Bang, bang, bang. Does it. And still, again, it's low.

Da-da-da-da-da. Gets one the right way. And then let's say the ratio is 30% success, 60% or 70% mistakes. At what point do you advise, this team is no longer for you. You're making the same mistake over and over again. And I don't know what to do anymore.

That's a great question. Yeah, there's a little bit of a coach responsibility and an athlete responsibility, but now the system is broken. We want you to make mistakes, but the right kind of mistakes and not the same mistake over and over again. At what point do we say this place is no longer for you? I am probably tougher than most people think. But my answer will – I can't give you a number until I know a little bit more about what's at stake here. If it's patients'

lives, then my number is going to be something like 95, maybe even higher. 95 what? Well, 95 capacity to do the right thing at the bedside or in the operating room. Maybe 99, depending on if it's a brand new procedure we haven't done before, that's going to be different. But if it's something that you are meant to master this, to be in this game, then I'm going to have, like a factory, a very high run rate. If this is a children's little league, then I'm putting the number almost the other way around. You know, 10% is enough, right?

Because you're here to learn. We don't know what you're going to be like when you're 8 years old or 10 years old or 25 years old. But we're not going to give up on you yet because this is, after all, a practice field. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas

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But if this is a playing field, you know, I mean, if this is to be a, you know, major league, whatever, then you or by the bedside, whatever. So the stakes in terms of, and I think there's really three dimensions, but human safety is the most important, sort of economics, financial results are often quite important, and reputational harm or advantage. So once we know, we can calibrate the answer to that question based on, but you're primarily interested in, you know, very elite endeavors.

And I'm also, yes, but I'm also thinking about in the corporate environment, you know, the enterprise where a teammate keeps, you say, hey, listen, I really need something moved to the left and code for like, can I get this three days before I need to make a decision on it? Or one day. Yes. What not what not like, hey, I'm sorry. And today, can you take a look at this tonight after dinner? I know it's late. I'm so sorry. When that happens and you're firm, this needs to move to the left. Figure it out, work with your teammates, figure it out. And it keeps happening. Three strikes at most. Okay. Because there's no, unless, you know, there, I would probably want to pause to check, to make sure that you weren't being unclear. Let's go through a quick assessment of what's explaining that gap. But if we come to the recognition that that gap is explained by the other person's either inability or unwillingness to...

Yes, your memory is on full form right now. To go for it, then it is perfectly fine that I don't have a need for that person on my team. That doesn't mean their life is over. There are other things they can do with their one precious life, right? But it isn't my responsibility to ensure that they stay on this team. It's my responsibility to ensure that this team delivers to its constituents what it's supposed to deliver. And it's likely a complex failure. It's probably not a single point because there's five things. Well, it involves three other people to get me something and they're late and your schedule doesn't free up. There's a complexity to it, but still.

It's still up to that person to figure it out. And, you know, if it's like, for example, one way that can happen is if you have someone like me who says yes too much. And then they've got to figure out that they can't do that. You've got to stop engaging in magical thinking, which is I can say yes to, you know, 25 projects and they'll all somehow get done, even though the days in the week and hours in the day won't change. Yeah. You and I have a similar issue to solve. Is that a mistake at the, it's a mistake at the moment you say yes, or is it a, does it lead to the, is it more of a failure at the moment you say yes? I, I think it's, you know, I don't really need to, you know, like get, like we don't have to get the terminology or the, we don't have to quibble about the situation and the right terminology,

but I can certainly see and tell a story where it is a mistake. Because, you know, if you can say I should know better, then it's a mistake. Like I've been here before. I've done this before. Oops. Then it's a mistake. I mean, there's lots of very complex reasons

why I keep making this mistake. And I probably should get to that foundational, who am I and why am I here? But it's a mistake. It's a mistake. So my team did something funny. They said, look, you can't say yes anymore. Right.

And I go, what? And they're like, you can't say yes. Like, you need to run this through a bit of the machine, you know, and to help you discern. Because we know you want to do a lot. So I've got teammates that help me say no. And that's a huge help and a huge fix. Another potential fix is instead of yes or no, because no can feel so painful if you have the pathology that I have. Is that codependency? I don't know. I think it's just,

you know, a little bit of the rejection worry. If you don't like me, that'll be the end of my life. So it's not my happiness depends on you being okay with me? A little bit of that. But again, I'm not brittle about being brittle. So I can see it. But I think a little device is

can I think about it? I'll get back to you tomorrow or whatever. Sometimes for me, just say I have to ask my boss, like my wonderful team member, Jay, I can ask them whether I should do this additional thing and they will tell me right away, no, you can't. I look at your calendar, right?

Or I can say, and or perhaps, I can say, let me give that some thought. I'll get back to you. And almost as soon as I've hung up the phone or the whatever, I can probably see, gosh, I'd love to, but it's just not going to fit. Yeah, right. I'm sorry. It's so important. I can't allocate the right amount of energy or time. Right, exactly. And then I'll go, you know, and then I can respond more thoughtfully. But so if you discover yourself to be, like I often am, incapable of not making the error, you know, in the moment, then pause, give yourself enough time to not make the error

and then get it right. So just one more kind of big question, if you will. Maybe we'll do a two-parter. Okay, so let's insert this word into two parts. One is, how does purpose square with failure? Well, my initial answer or response to that question is that purpose is a guiding light, a fueling source of energy. When I have clarity about purpose or when people or organizations have clarity about purpose. That is a source of enormous energy that can really help

with the commitment, the foundational commitment. And so failures are much more likely to be seen as inconveniences on the path rather than as, you know, endings or devastating events that, you know, shouldn't have happened. Of course they happened, right? Because you're operating in an uncertain world. And if we replace the word purpose with agile mindset, so how does an agile mindset help you with failure or relate to failures more? And by the way, purpose plus agile mindset seems like a pretty good combination to me. But an agile mindset helps you with failure because you become more capable and able to quickly reframe. And again, not the happy talk like, you know, oh no, it's okay, I'm okay. But just, okay, this is disappointing. You know, not catastrophic, most of the time it isn't. This is disappointing. Let's take a look at it.

What went wrong? What can it teach me, particularly for what to try next? That's agility. Keep moving forward with the purpose in mind. I do think those two mindsets are really, really powerful. And is there a mindset that kind of belongs at the high table of, you know, living a great life for you that I'm going to put purpose and agility up there for sure. But I'm wondering if there's one. I think growth mindset is very fundamental and foundational to the conversation we're having. Because if that's that capacity, you know, to see myself as a verb, to see myself as a work in progress, not as I was born smart, you know, I was born whatever with all these things or not things. And then I'm sort of

stuck with it. And I don't want you to find out how inadequate I really am. So that's the fixed mindset. But if I, if I can truly embody a growth mindset, um, then I know that I'm a work in progress. And if I keep working at it, I'll keep getting better. So for fun, we're recording this on election day in the United States, which has a ton of energy, like a ton of, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot going on right now. Without going down a rabbit hole here, what do you think might be... Today just might be a good day to ask, what do you think the world needs more of or less of? I think I will echo the fear. The fear is a big part of this day or this season. And I think what the world needs more of is leadership. And leadership is a force that helps others be better and helps the world or society or your organization be better.

And a good leader is someone who listens, who actively seeks new perspectives, you know, who reflects on their own shortcomings, has a sense of purpose, and works hard to pursue the interests of those they lead or represent. And so, you know, I think a good leader above all is fostering connection, those relationships we talked about, not division. And all of us on Election Day can exercise leadership just through our voice. Amen. Well said. The nuances of what you just said, none of them are lost on me. I really appreciate the sophistication in your thinking. And then just for fun, part two, if I give you a sentence or a

word as a thought stem, can you just finish the thought? This is like the Rorschach test for podcast. Yeah, good. Okay, good. All right. Ready? Ready. It all comes down to? Hard work. Success is? Rewarding. Pressure comes from? Within. I am?

A verb. My vision is? A world that works for everyone. It's my same vision. A world where works for everyone. It's my same vision. A world where people flourish. That's so cool. Relationships are? Essential.

Yeah. Who tells you no? Me. Jay. Jay, yeah. And if you had the chance to sit with one true master you could sit anywhere you wanted with him who would that be where would you sit and if you only had one question what would it be oh gosh that's a tough one i'm just the first thing that came to mind is the dalai lama because i have an

idea about the dalai lama as being really truly welcoming and peaceful person, you know, loving, embodying love. Where would that be? Anywhere. I don't care. And the question would be, how can I let go of what keeps me stuck? Bingo. What a gem. Amy, like, thank you, you thank you thank you so much i hope that more people sit with themselves um and ask that question how can i let go of the things that are keeping me

stuck beautifully uh vulnerable i'm not going to ask you what those are. I imagine that that's for all of us to sort out in our own lives. That's right. Yeah. And Amy, thank you for the contribution you're making. Thank you. What a privilege to talk with you for this hour. So fun. It was so fun. I hope our paths cross at some point now. And yeah, I really appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you. I really appreciate that very much and the work you're doing. And I look forward to learning more about it. Yes. Okay. Amy, with that, have a great day. You too. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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