Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Power of Observation and Expression | Ultra Runner, Katie Arnold

Episode Date: January 9, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Katie Arnold, a longtime journalist and an elite ultra runner.Katie was the 2018 Leadville Trail 100 Run champion.For those of you unfamiliar with Leadville, it’s an Ultramarathon held annually on rugged trails and dirt roads near Leadville, Colorado, through the heart of the Rocky Mountains.The race course climbs and descends 15,600 feet, with elevations ranging from 9,200-12,620 feet – the elevation and terrain makes this an incredibly difficult course.Katie is also a contributing Editor at Outside Magazine and has written for many well respected publications including: The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Runner’s World, ESPN: The Magazine, Elle, and many others.She recently published a new book called: Running Home: A Memoir.Running is the through line, but her book and this conversation are about more than running – we discuss the power of observation, expression, and mindfulness.Running is just Katie’s way through those things, but anytime she references running, you could scratch that out and say your thing, and the message is the same.I, for one, am not a big runner but this conversation hit home for me – it’s about understanding your path and where you’re headed next. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Right from the beginning of running ultras, I had that trust. You have to let go because an ultra is such a great metaphor for life, but there's so many variables and so many factors you can't predict. In one race, it's not like road running where, you know, the same distance is the same race. You know, if you run a marathon in this city, it's the same in that one. You know, there's terrain, there's elevation, there's weather, there's, you know, the technical trails.

And so you really have to let go of any preconceived notion and sort of open to what will be. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais by Trade and Training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And as this is our first episode of 2020, just a quick thank you for reconnecting and reinvesting back into you being the best version of you. And that's actually why Coach Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, he and I founded and pulled together Compete to Create. And it's really the methodology is the science, the training of your mind so that you can work towards being your very best. And certainly finding mastery is part of that mechanism. And we get to have conversations with

some of the most extraordinary humans on the planet, those that are dedicating their life efforts towards understanding mastery of self. And they definitely have mastery of craft, but what we're interested in is how have they become the human that they've become? Not necessarily what they've done, but both are equally compelling. And the way that we're going to do that is by understanding their psychological framework, which is a fancy phrase for how do they make sense of the world around them, events, how do they fit in the world, what is their purpose, how are they aligning their thoughts, their words, their actions across any circumstance or environment. And then we're going to double click under that to

understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time.

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One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now this week's conversation is with Katie Arnold. She's a longtime journalist and elite ultra runner. And Katie was the 2018 Leadville Trail 100 run champion. And for those of you who understand elite running and ultra, this is a massive accomplishment.

And if you're not familiar with the Leadville, it's an ultra marathon held annually on the rugged trails and dirt roads near Leadville, Colorado. And it's through the heart of the Rocky Mountains. But what makes this course, this ultra event, incredibly difficult is the elevation. So it, there's a climb and a descend of 15,600 feet, which those elevations that they've, they've got in their range from 9,000 to 12,000 feet, somewhere in there, which this, it makes it incredibly difficult. It's like you're running on goat trails up, you know, towards 12,000 feet. So it's a, it's really challenging on the body and subsequently the mind. And so Katie has deep understanding about how she's done that. But this conversation is not about

checking the box running. I'm not a runner. That's not what I do. And that's not what I'm fascinated here. But Katie is incredibly thoughtful. She's a contributing editor at Outside Magazine. And she's written for so many well-respected publications, you know, the New York Times, Travel and Leisure, Runner's World, ESPN, the magazine, Elle, lots of others. And she recently published a new book called Running Home, a memoir. And while running is the through line in her book, this conversation is about much more than running. And we discuss resilience and grief and why and how we're so much stronger than we might think. And running is just Katie's way through those things, the difficult times, the challenges. And anytime she

references running, I think you could scratch that out and include your thing, whatever your thing, it could be parenting, it could be business, it could be yodeling. I mean, whatever it is. And I think the message is the same. And that's what, one of the reasons I'm so fascinated with this community that we're building is that we're, we're not just looking at a, at a person and saying, Oh, well, I want, she's a runner. I want to be a better runner, which is cool. But it's like, what has this extraordinary human done? And then double click underneath of that, how has she organized her inner life? And so this conversation definitely hit home for me. I'm not a runner, but it's really about understanding your path and, you know, getting the sites clearer on where you're heading

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all that good stuff. So with that, I'm so excited to introduce Katie Arnold to you. Let's jump right into this conversation with her. Katie, how are you? Hey, I'm great. How are you doing, Michael? Yeah. Congratulations on your body of work and what you've done. And there's not many people have occupied the space that you occupy. And so I really want to understand your path, your framework, and the mental skills that you've used to be able to experience what you've experienced. So, you know, if we could just start out in like a very general question is like, what was it about your upbringing that led you to this path? Oh, that's a great question. I think there are several factors that kind of

led me both into running and a physical life outside of adventure, but also writing. The two have always gone hand in hand for me. And I think first and foremost, the influence of my father in my life, he was a National Geographic photographer for his whole career back when Nat Geo photographers actually had an office, you know, at the headquarters in Washington and would be sent out on these sort of exotic assignments. And he, so he really taught me how to see the world as a photographer does, which is to pay attention, and to be an observer of those moments that happen in all of our days that sometimes slip by without noticing. And my dad was an expert at noticing, because that's what photographers do, right? They've got their camera ready and they see that moment that some of us miss that can be beautiful or ordinary. Um, and, but he knew how to capture it. And so growing up

as his daughter, I became aware of the powers of observation and And that really fed me as a writer. From a young age, I knew I wanted to be a writer. His medium was photographs and mine was words, but the process is the same. And so his influence on me was huge in that area, just teaching me how to be awake in the world and pay attention. And then his other great influence on me was just loving being outside and being out in nature. And he was not an athlete. I mean, he was an adventurer, an explorer, but he wasn't out to push times or to win anything. But we just spent a lot of time outside rambling around the woods, bashing through bushes, you know, sort of with sometimes without a destination. But I think that ultimately fed me in the way of not everything had to have a result

or goal oriented. It was more about being in the experience. And then finally, I'll just say my parents divorced. So my parents, you know, separated when I was very young and I didn't live with my father. But kind of divorce at that time was so different. And kids, you know, we really didn't know anything what was happening. And I think as a result, that sort of helped me become a storyteller, right? When you're not sure what's going on in your life and no one's really telling you anything, you start to make up stories and try to solve the mystery of your life and what's happening to you. And, you know, I already had an imagination as a young writer, but kind of given the task of trying to solve the mystery of my life, I think really helped me as a writer, you know, to sort of go down that path of trying to figure

things out. And so I think those are the, you know, the biggest factors in who I am now. Okay, so let me work backwards is and super concretely, like what age did your parents divorce? My parents divorced officially when I was five, but they separated when I was two. So I don't have a memory of my father living at home with us. Okay. And then you would forage in, you know, like just kind of bash around. I can't remember the words you used in like, what age comes to mind when you were thinking of that story? Oh my gosh, we're always out walking. You know, from a very young age, probably three or four, we just spent a lot of time outside. And, and my dad and, and the woman who would become my stepmother, bought a farm in Virginia, I think when I was six. And that is

when we really started just going out on these rambles, and dirt roads and kind of walking around the fields. So yeah, from a very early age, and I will say too, that, you know, being a child of divorce, and then remarriage, both my parents remarried, and I got some new siblings on my mother's side. And, you know, it's hard to navigate that as a child. And, and so my safe place or the place I went when I, you know, didn't know how to handle these complexities was outside. That was where I felt free and myself. And so from a very young age, I've always felt most at home outside. Okay.

I see how all of this informs writing and running. Yeah. So, okay. But I want to double click on two parts. I want to understand how your dad taught you to observe, not me. And it could be as simple as like, you just watched him do it. I really want to double click there. And I would also want to pull on like this idea of what were the heavy emotions? What were the emotions that were difficult? And then how did

you, I understand you just went outside, but like, how did that shape your narrative? And what did you struggle with at a young age through the divorce process, which really the divorce is an emblem for an uprooting, like a disruption in what the plan is. Yeah. Stabilization, right. We're just knocked off your, off your, your stable platform. Yeah. And so, okay. Those two questions, but hold on, let me say it just knocked off your, off your, your stable platform. Yeah. And so, okay. Those two questions, but hold on, let me say this to you as well, is that I grew up in Virginia. I'm no kidding. Dirt roads, uh, in a farm, no streetlights, nearest neighbors, like quarter mile away, you know, that type of stuff. And, um, I feel like it was so informative to grabbing some roots, um roots because the mother nature is swift and harsh and, you know, like we had to sort it out.

And so I think we have at least some assumed shared experiences from that. That's great. What part of Virginia? It was a small town at the time called Warrington. Oh, my gosh. That's really close to where my dad's farm is. Yeah. How about it?. Uh huh. Yeah. How about it? And so yeah, yeah. So I bet the next county over in Rappahannock County. No, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, good. What do you know? So let's get into those two questions. Like, how did your dad teach it? And then how did you really sort out? Besides just going outside? Like, how did you internally work out the disruptions? Those are great questions. Yeah, I think my dad really taught me. I just learned by watching. My dad had this great personality where he was never, he never was the one who was like, let me tell you how to do it. Or let me be in your face about it.

It was like, he had this quiet sort of unassuming manner. And photography suited him so well because he was never the guy in front of the camera, right? He was the guy behind the lens. And so he could kind of disappear in a situation as great photographers do and kind of become his camera. And so my, you know, my father was never the one to give me advice about how to be an observer or here's how you do this, Katie, in five easy steps. I just watched him and he embodied his work and his way of being in the world so completely that it was like there was no gap between who he was and what he did. And so as a young observer, I couldn't articulate that at the time. But as a child, I just watched him. And he always had cameras dangling around his neck. He had that mesh photographer's vest that we always teased him about. And he always had cameras. And

he was always taking pictures. And he did amazing work for National Geographic. And then of course, he photographed our lives with him, you know, constantly, he was trying to, it was like he was trying to document everything. He seems a little bit ahead of his time, you know. Two things struck me when you said he, he was what he did and what he was were merged. Okay, so I'm thinking, wow. And then I where I was was going in while you're sharing was, I wonder if you mattered. Like, did you matter to him? Did the family matter to him? Because he was so absorbed in, let's say, capturing other, whether it was, you know,

something in nature and other meaning something in another country. And then you said, no, you just kind of got there. You're like, and he documented our family. So you were the subject of his, his attention as well. You know, I wrestled with that. Did we matter? We lived far away. I grew, you know, I lived full time with my mother in New Jersey, in the suburbs of New York city. And I didn't spend that much time with my father. You know, when I did the math, when I was writing the book, it really didn't add up to that much time, several weeks, maybe like a month, a year. But when we were with him, he was all in.

He was hyper-present to wherever he was. If he was on assignment in Alaska, he was on assignment in Alaska. He was like this early Zen master, you know, before, you know, and he was not a spiritual guy, but he was just all in and present to where he was. So when we were with him, he wanted to document everything. And he was like, you know, I ran my first race when I was seven. And I tell the story and running home, which is one of my favorites, sort of the origin story of becoming a runner, but I tell the story in Running Home, which is one of my favorites, sort of the origin story of becoming a runner. But I crossed the finish line in just a total mess. You know, I just run six miles. I was seven years old. Like, you know, it was not a pretty sight. But my dad, you know,

was there to document the finish. And then, you know, he wanted me to go back and crawl across the finish line and sort of stage this goofy photo. So he was just always right there. Um, which is ironic because we didn't live with him, you know, and he was very geographically distant from us, but emotionally really present. And, um, so yeah. And then when we were gone, he was, he was doing his life without us. But he also, we had these incredible phone conversations, you know, he was a great conversationalist. And he was the person in my life who wanted to know all the details and not so that he could brag on me or be like, you know, parents do now and I'm one of them. But like, you know, my kid got all A's, but he was just curious. So he taught me how to be curious in the world.

How did he do that when the communication was, let's say, every three weeks? Yeah. Well, we talked every week on the phone. He would call us from his party line. Remember those where it was like you shared the line with your farm neighbors? He would call us from the party line at his farm or more often from his office at Nat Geo. And we would have these great conversations every Thursday. And so we stayed in touch that way.

He was an amazing letter writer. Oh, God. This keeps getting richer. Yeah. Wait a minute. Wait. Okay. All right.

So tell me about those conversations. You know, as a kid, it was probably, I don't always remember them, but it was like, you know, he wanted to know what was going on in school or the sports and, you know, like how was my school work and what projects was I working on? And, you know, I probably told him a little bit about my life at home in New Jersey, but that's complicated. There was not a lot of crossover. Right. And you asked me about the emotions that this sort of brought up for me as a child. And what I can really remember is the feeling of had to be very cautious around both my parents so that if I was talking too much about the other, that I might be disloyal to that one, if that makes sense. So triangulation, it's a classic experience for kids in contentious environments. So school was a super safe subject, talked about school a lot. I loved school. I was a huge reader. I still am. But you know, we talk about books. We would talk about music as I got older. He was a huge music lover. He played many instruments. He was a great listener.

You know, he had a huge record collection. So those were areas that were safe. And then as I got older and went to college and was more, you know, became much more of an outdoor athlete and adventure. We talked about adventures. And so all of those things we went deep on, you know, it was just that I had, you know, I had this sense of guilt. And I don't, I think that's very normal as a young child, right? The divorce couldn't possibly have been my fault. But as a young child, you feel that it somehow must have been. And so I had these very latent feelings of guilt and really strong shame that I had done something. And so I had to be careful. I couldn't talk about really my home life in New Jersey with my mother and stepfather because I felt somehow that I was being disloyal. My father never said that,

and I'm sure he wouldn't have felt unhappy if I'd talked about it. It was just this rule that I had made somehow in my six-year-old's brain. Sort of sad. Yeah, it is. I can give you the psychological reasoning why that we think that happens. It it's part of brain development you know the formation experience is like the world revolved around you of course and so if it revolved around you then you're the epicenter of impact in the entire universe and so when you see the two people they're supposed to take care of you not be able to get along it must be because you're a pain in the ass and or you've made a mistake or something but you know obviously it's as an adult we can say it's not the case did your dad in you for a long time? I mean, that's what I want

to understand. Like deep in me, did you take that to drugs and alcohol? No, gosh, no, I was such a goody two shoes. I, you know, my parents, my mother and stepfather, the house I grew up in, it was like, they were completely that just say no generation. Yeah. You took the angel approach. Yeah. I took the, I took the, um, you know, just, you know, be good, be really good, do everything well. So the, the do good, right. So there's only a handful of emblems that people take on through crises as young kids, right? The rebel, the jokester, the angel, you know? And so you took on that performer angel thing. And oftentimes that can get confusing, right? Because it's like, I have to be perfect or I have to show a certain way so that because if I don't, maybe people go away again, right? Some sort of internal dialogue. And so what has been looking back now, what has been that the perfectionist because I knew I was too aware of my own shortcomings.

And there was just full areas where I was like, not even, you know, like, there's no way I can be a perfectionist in this because, you know, I'm not that's not my area of strength. So I wouldn't define myself as perfectionist. And the angel that was sort of like, I don't know, I had a little bit of the rebel in me too, of like, I wanted to be a little different. I wanted to do well at things, but also stand a little outside. And maybe that was a sort of a defense mechanism, right? That I wasn't the total overachiever. I mean, I really, I did, I wanted to do well in everything, but my sister who was older than me, um, is amazing. And she, when I, you know, being her younger sister, there was no way I was going to be the best at anything because she came first and she was, you know, everyone said she looked like princess die. She was a straight A student, you know, she was six feet tall and ran track and cross country. So I had this sort of benefit a little bit of being in her shadow. So I could kind of have a little bit rebellion. But I was never the bad girl. It was just I like to differentiate myself. I think that's what it was. I like to be a little separate. Wow. Okay, there you go. Were you lonely? No, I don't remember feeling lonely. I had lots of friends. I was always very comfortable in the world and in groups. No, I wasn't lonely. I really missed my father, but I didn't have words to put

that to because certainly with my mother and stepfather, we didn't talk about my dad and we didn't talk about his life on the farm with my stepmother. And so I felt lonely for him without being able to really express it. And I felt a little lonely in my sisterhood because my sister was a very serious reader. If I was a reader, she was like to the nth degree a reader. And she was also from a very young age, a writer. And I write about this in my book, but she had a typewriter. And she was writing a trilogy when she was like nine years old. And so I would always knock on the door because I was such a physical kid. And I wanted to be outside playing. And I would knock on the door and say, Meg, come and play with me. And she'd open it a crack, you know, take a, you could hear the typewriter keys going thwack,

thwack, and then she'd open the door and be like, I'm writing and slam it. And so, um, yeah, I was a little lonely, but, um, I mostly, I felt really, I felt in a way, even with that shame and guilt that was sort of way deep down, I felt an ease in the world. Wow. Awesome. I mean, it really, if, um, if I wouldn't ask those early questions, I might've assumed because of your desire to do ultra, you know, the 50 milers and 100 milers that you, um, you might've been using running as your obsession, right? Like maybe an escape mechanism, but I'm not sure that that fits for you. And maybe I don't want to presuppose anything here,

but like ultras are different. People that do ultras are different. You know, it's just, it's the, and as you would recognize an incredible amount of time and deep pain and discomfort comes with it. So, but also great euphoria and insight and yeah. And observation.

And so it's both. And, and, um, I, yeah, I don't know that I would say that, that running, that I do use it as an obsession or escape. Everyone loves to say that. Well, what are you running from? Certain days I am running from the dishes in the sink or the laundry or a deadline, you know, but I think in the much larger scheme of things, I've always been running towards something, which is kind of my true self and my essence and my expression as a human being.

And so I think from an early age, I recognized that being outside in motion was a way to feel closer to that, my true self and kind of who I am below all the external variables and circumstances. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

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You've done work on yourself. It's evident to me that you, you know, and I know that you've got an appreciation for Zen traditions. And so, And so the reason I like where we started is because we're like triple clicking and pulling on that thread about like what was sitting inside of you early that was the formative experiences for you to go search, you know, like what you're really searching for in life. And in the Zen traditions, like there's always a duality and a riddle in life. And the idea from a Buddhist tradition that you're actually searching and craving for something is that the seed of suffering for many. So I say that with a, I'm going to ask this question with both of those philosophies underneath the surface here. And then also like the christian influence is like uh it answers this question in a very different way but the question that i want to ask is like what are you searching for that's such a great question um i don't know the first hit i got when

you you know were just sort of introing that question was i'm searching for connection let's pause right there i want to know how you work more so than the answer sometimes, but I want to know when you said first hit, what, where did that, how did that work for you? Yeah. You just said, I'm, you know, what are you searching for? And just, it came up from within me from sort of deep in my belly, almost like this feeling of I want connection. Okay. Wait, so hold on. So let me keep pulling. It was a feeling. Yeah, it's a feeling. Okay. And then you put words on it that this feeling is, but what was the feeling?

Oh, kind of like literally the feeling was sort of this warmth, this kind of expansive warmth. Is that what you mean? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what it was like inside of your body. Right. So yes, that's what I'm, but metaphorically, yes. Like not metaphorically, like concretely. Yes. So it was, it's a warmth and an expansion. And when you feel warmth and expansion, you labeled that that says, Oh, this must be this connection that I'm looking for. Yeah. So it comes from a, gosh, I don't want to label this, but there's a safety, there's a, like I'm re-saying warm, but it's not scratchy. It's not small, isolated. That's the duality of things. We can come from lots of different angles, but it sounds like warmth and

space. Oh, that feels like love. That feels like connection. That's really what I'm searching. Am I putting words in your mouth or is that? No, feels like connection that's really what i'm searching is that am i putting words in your mouth or is that no i mean that's really i think absolutely what the feeling is and is that desire to feel connected not only to myself and sort of my you know, true nature, but the natural world, my parents, humanity, humans, like, you know, who once existed, who will exist, if we're talking in the Zen, you know, from a Zen perspective, it's sort of all sentient beings, you know, now and in the past and to come, you know, and I feel when I run, you know, especially in the last several years as my running practices deepened, that that's what I'm really running for and toward.

And then how does that search, that desire to be connected, how does that map to your early experiences? And then how does that map to what life later could look like if this thing really worked out favorably to your wild imagination that you have. I will be a Zen master. Is that it though? Have you ever said that out loud? No, I just said it out loud. Just now? Just now. I thought about it the other day when I was writing to my friend Natalie, who I write about in Running Home. She's a dear friend. Natalie Goldberg is a Zen, a student of Zen, but this incredible writing teacher and, you know, world famous author. And she's kind of become my friend, not kind of, she is my friend. And I, I write about our friendship in the book. But I was, she's been

away in Japan. And we have been out of touch for a few weeks. And I was just texting her and the words, Nat, I'm on, I found the true path now came to mind. And that's what I wrote to her, like, I'm going down the path now the real path. And I didn't know what that meant when I said it. But I also did know that that is a deepening of my Zen practice and, and running as an expression of that and a way to sort of, you know, is, is my form of practice. But I, but I do, I kind of think that's where I'm going and I haven't said it out loud. I hope that doesn't sound presumptuous. No, I, I, I felt it.

Like when you said it, I was like, oh, this is new. You know, this is a cool space. Okay. And then I want to tell you a story before we go to like how it mapped in the past. But I was, this was probably about 12 years ago now. I was fortunate enough to do some really fun work with Nike. They had a board, an advisory board that they spun up and it was called the global advisory board of human performance. And it was about 16 of us. It was across the planet. It was incredible. And it was super stimulating, very much, um, a big part of my growth arc because of the humans that were in that room and the depth of knowledge and the science and the Christmas and the ideation. And it had very little to actually do with Nike at that point.

It was really about these beautiful humans that were smart and wanted to reimagine the human experience. And it was awesome. Okay, so it's a long way of saying it circulates some ideas. And I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And I walked away super stimulated. And then I came back to Nike and I pitched an idea to a board member and certainly an executive of the company. And at the end, this very wise woman from Nike looked at me and it was kind of a hallway conversation. And she said, she looked, I'll never forget the feeling and I'm having a hard time articulating, but she looked right in me as this wise sage woman from Nike would have. And she's been around the

for sure in the business world. And she looked at me, she said, good luck with that. And, and it was said in a way that was like, I see what you see and that ain't going to be easy kid, kid of 12 years old, but she was much older than me. And, um, so I had, when you were telling that story and it's only for the long narrative here, but I wanted to say that to you, like, good luck, you know, and I mean it from that warmth and open space, but I'm not there. And it's not as simple as like, I just want to get on the path. And it is as simple as I'm on the path. I'm on the path. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And it takes a long time of being on the path to know that to all of a sudden have that moment where you're like, oh, I'm on the path. And the path is going to change. And there's going to be a ton of detours. And it's going to be really crooked. And there's going to be dead ends, but it, and it's not fast, right? That's what I've learned. Um, but yeah, the goal is the path. The path is the thing.

Yeah. Okay. So then let's get out of the esoteric. Like the goal is the path. The path is a thing for you. What is the path? Well, the path is, um, is running and writing and, um, and understanding my connection, you know, in the, in the, in the world and, and Zen, I think really is the path and all. And those three things together, the running, the writing and Zen are the path. And, um, I can't really articulate, well, if we're talking about the path, we don't need to talk about the outcome, right? Because if you're trying to get there, right, there's no there, there, you're just on the path and you get to where you're going and you realize you're still going. I had a fun conversation on a podcast earlier today. And the conversation that I was asked was like, okay, I don't think I can do more

than two things at once, you know, like being a great parent and being a business person. And Tina was her name. And so Tina says, and it was a fun conversation, Tina Muir, she's a runner as well. And she said, I'm not sure I can do more than two things. And I thought, wait, hold on. And it maps onto what you and I are talking about, Katie, is that no, it's the path. It's not like the outcome of like, how many things can I do? But when the principles are right and the path is right and that stuff is lined up, anything and everything we do is maximized. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you said that, my first thought was that running and writing and mothering, if that's my other big hat that I wear, are when they're all working together, it is like this really powerful, positive feedback loop. Did you just pull back the word perfect?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I might have. Not consciously, but powerful. Yeah. Cause it's not always perfect and they don't always fire together, but when they are firing together, you know, running helps me become a better writer and a better mother and mothering gives depth and perspective to my running and my writing. And, um, yeah, so they all, they all inform each other and they converge. It can be this very profound convergence of those parts of my life that come together. And that's happened several times, specifically at Leadville last summer when I won that race in my first quadrant. Okay, hold on. Yeah, we don't have to go there yet.

No, no, no. Let's go there now. But tell people what Leadville is like it is it's the heavy of the heavies, you know? Yeah. So the Leadville 100 trail run is, um, a hundred mile ultra marathon in the mountains of Colorado. Um, you kind of legendary race made famous in part by Chris McDougal and his book born to run. Um, but it's just, you know, it's sort of the grandfather of big mountain ultras. And yeah, it was my first hundred. I have what you would call beginner's mind, which is a completely powerful tool to use and has become really a big part of my run training is to try to stay in that beginner's mind, but it really was my first hundred. But this hundred is interesting because it's

goat trailed and it is it's an elevation. So this isn't like running a hundred miles across, I don't know, 64 degree flatland, you know, with zero elevation. Like this is something that is, I don't know. It has a lot of topography and yes, high elevation. I think the high point is 12,600 feet, which not coincidentally is the high point that I can run to out my door. So it was, um, I was really suited to run Leadville. Um, it was the terrain that I run here in my home Hills, um, is in Santa Fe, which many people think is like Phoenix, you know, but we are at the southern end of the Rocky Mountains. We're a high desert community and we have, you know, mountains up to 12.6 out the door. So it was like I was home at Leadville. And I felt that as soon as I got there, which is hard to explain. Did you have a goal? Like, were you in a concrete place? Like, I'm gonna go win this thing? No, no. Like, I'm gonna go run for fun? Or my goal was to finish. My goal was to finish. And I had a there was a complicated story leading up to leadville um which is that i had

broken my leg in a fairly traumatic wilderness accident um two years earlier and i was on um my husband and i do a lot of whitewater river trips rivers are really important to me and um sort of in my my approach to flow and being in nature. And so anyway, we do a lot of river trips, but we were on the middle fork of the Salmon, which is a remote wilderness river in Idaho. And on the first day, maybe an hour from when we put on the river,

we flipped our raft in a fluke accident and I fell out of the raft and the impact or the torque of falling interestingly enough I resisted the fall I remember like not wanting to fall and I think that's what did it but I broke my tibial plateau just below my knee and so long story short we stayed on the river there was no we had would have had to call a medical evac. And I didn't think, I have very high pain tolerance, obviously, but I didn't think it was broken or I hoped it wasn't.

And so we stayed on the river for six days, which was super intense and kind of its own surreal Zen experience. But when I got back to Santa Fe, I went to the doctor and he's like, you broke your tibial plateau and you need surgery. And when I went to meet the surgeon, you know, he was very cut and dry. And he just said, if I were you, I would never run again. So all of which is to say that when I showed up in Leadville in August of 2018 to run my first 100, I was just so grateful to have been able to do the training and arrive at the starting line healthy and to do something that

I'd never imagined myself able to do after breaking my leg, that I knew that everything that followed at the race was just going to be a celebration of the fact that I was there. And so my mindset was completely one of gratitude and openness to the experience. And I think that's why I was able to do so well. Yeah. I mean, the gifts of struggle to get us to the places where we can let go, you know, because we have, I don't know, it's children, young children are able to let go and trust because it's just kind of how things work for them. And then as we get older and we get burned and we go through some tougher times and challenges, sometimes we want to hold on more. But it sounds like you were able to go through

that suffer, struggle and get to the other place to say, you know what, I'm stoked to be here. And I'm going to add something, which is, let me just do my best. It was a real feeling. I was very overwhelmed when I drove into Leadville and the mountains rise up to the west of the road on the way in. And I had to pull over and stop my car because I just felt so emotionally overwhelmed by, um, the path I'd been on and the journey and the twists and turns and those awful, you know, months when I was, you know, on crutches and really taken down to zero and not sure if I could run again. And so, um, yeah, it was one of the strongest feelings I've ever had. And yeah, I think that I think just to your point about letting go and trusting that is something that ultra running has taught me and it and I began to sort of cultivate that well before Leadville, kind of from my first ultra in 2012 was that feeling of I knew that if I showed up at the starting line, having done the work, and I didn't know this the first time, but it worked the first time I had put in my training

and I showed up and I, it's like, I switch a button in my head or switch, you know, to receive mode. And I, and I just go into it like, okay, I've done the work. Now I'm open to whatever's going to happen. Show me, you know, I, I almost say that to the run or the race, like, okay, I've done the work. Now I'm open to whatever's going to happen. Show me, you know, I, I almost say that to the run or the race, like, okay, show me, teach me what is this about? And, um, so right from the beginning of running ultras, I had that trust. Um, you have to let go because an ultra is such a great metaphor for life, but there's so many variables and so many factors you can't predict. You know, in one race, it's not like road running where, you know, the same distance is the same race.

You know, if you run a marathon in this city, it's the same in that one. You know, there's terrain, there's elevation, there's weather, there's, you know, the technical trails. And so you really have to let go of any preconceived notion and sort of open to what will be. What a cool insight, like show me. Show me. That's really like, and I don't know where that came from. That was just right away early on. And I just, you know, I felt literally like I was flipping a switch to receive like, okay, I'm in receive mode. I mean, a really novel way. I've never heard anyone say it before. But to activate like that beginner's student mind, right?

Like, that's really cool. Like anything's possible. The good things and the bad things. You know, you could be in top shape and you can go into a race in peak form and all possibilities exist, the good ones and the hard ones. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Why race though? Because the path is somehow for you is interested in testing against maybe other people. I don't know, but why, what is it about the many events that you go to and the competitions that you're at that is stimulating for you? Yeah, that's a great question.

I, you know, I have a complicated relationship with competition and racing. Um, it's, it's really a very, you know, the tippiest tippy top of the iceberg of why I run. And so, um, I think for me, the races are structure. So they, they create the structure around which I can organize. And it's not just goal setting, like I'm going to set this goal and get there, but, um, it's kind of a bigger, um, it's bigger than that, but it's something, um, and to apply what I'm learning about myself and my practice of running in a concrete way. It's also a little bit about accountability. I don't have any trouble motivating to run and to do big runs and adventure runs. You know, that that's not it. But if I if I can organize around a big

objective, you know, say a race, it gives some shape to my to my days and my path that then allows me to have freedom in it. So you know, if I if I'm organizing around a structure, say the Leadville 100, then I know that's off on the horizon, then I can be really hyper present to my days because and my runs that lead me there. Same thing with writing a book, I knew I have the book deadline out there, you know, but then that allows me, it frees me to be very present in my writing that day, like I'm just I'm working on this chapter or this, you know, this paragraph. Um, and I think the other big part about racing is that community and being connected, um, because I do most of my runs, um, by myself. Um, and I think that's just part of being a writer runner, you know, and it's

a creative thing for me. So I do a lot of, um, creative thinking when I'm running. And I like to run alone. But then at races, you can really be part of something bigger. Okay. This is amazing insights and journey that you have. And I'm really enjoying this. Me too. Yeah, thanks. And I mean that.

How do you get in your way? How do you get in your way? How do you get in your own way? How easily? The voices in my head, we all have them, but it's the self-doubt. What specifically does it sound like for you? Oh, it has so many different voices, but I'll give you an example, like with ultra running. Oh, you're not the real deal. You're old. You're not the real deal. Like, you know, you're old, you're not the real deal. You're, you know, you haven't run enough ultras to really be serious. You don't know what you're doing. As a writer, this is the best one that can't, you know, not the best one,

the worst one. But I, you know, I faced it almost every day that I was writing my book was like, everyone, you know, has written this kind of book. And you're, you know, has written this kind of book and you're, you know, every people have done it much better than you. Like, who cares? That kind of voice. I love it. So sad. I mean, we spend so much energy listening to those voices. You know, the other the other way I get in my knee, my way, my knee is, you know, the doctor was right. You shouldn't be running.

You know, he's going to have the last laugh. I mean, his, he, that doctor lived in my knee for at least a year after my surgery. And finally, I just had a day where I, you know, I realized like, wait, that was his story about not running, but that does not have to be mine. And I could, you know, I could write my own story around running. Yeah. That's awesome. And the app metaphor for every part of life, who knows you better than you? Right. Others, if you don't do the work to know you, but by limitation, they're putting their frame on you. So our responsibility as adults, you know, young adults, right, is to explore and understand the truth and discover who am I? It's the most ancient of meditations. Who am I?

Who am I? And that's where that intuitive or intuition is so important. And what I've really learned to trust and to listen to, because that's the voice to listen to not the voice saying like, No, you're slow, you're old, people have written the same book, you know, but that voice inside that doesn't even make sense all the time. That was sort of my intuition that said earlier in our conversation, like, I'm going to be a Zen master. I don't, you know, like that was not a conscious thought. That was something deeper within me. And, you know, the voice is hard to hear sometimes because we, there's so much noise in the world. And, you know, there's noise of our screens and, you know, and the news and our social media feeds. And, but if we can get quiet, that voice is in all of us. And it's

really, it will lead us where we're meant to go. What do you do when you have that other voice, which is like, you know, the critic voice, which is, in that moment that you have that thought, what do you do? But I also want to know, how long do you entertain that train of thought? How many stops does it take before you're aware? Too many, too long. Sometimes like months, right? And that's sort of, you know, I think my first experience with that in a really, you know, understanding or being able to see how strong it was in me, that voice was after my father died. And my grief manifested as anxiety that I was dying, too. And, boy, that was like a year of listening to that voice straight through and believing the voice.

That's a long time. Well, and I had this intense health anxiety that like I could hear that someone had X disease and then I would develop it and I was sure I had it. And I didn't come out of that for at least a year or 18 months. So a true syndrome disorder, like this wasn't just a light, you know, like, oh, I was just kind my life. I didn't, I had to make up stories around it. So the story I made up was that I was sick and I was dying. If he died, I was going to die. And I was also partly, you know, aggravated by the fact that I had just given birth to my second daughter. So I had some postpartum, some sort of new mother anxiety. Anyway, it was this intense mashup where I was sure I was dying. And my body told the completely

opposite story. I was able to run, you know, 20 miles, 30 miles. So on one level, I knew I was healthy, but I was listening to that voice that was like, nope, you know, you must be dying. And so that, that voice had me for a long time. And, and now that I understand that voice, and the voice obviously has different messages. Some days, it's about my writing, some about my running, a lot about my mothering, but I can now I'm hip to the voice. So it, it doesn't hold me as long. It doesn't grab me for as long. But also there's vulnerable times, like different times of the year. I'm definitely affected by day length and season and around the anniversary of my dad's death, which is right now, this time of year, I'm more vulnerable. So in those vulnerable times, I can get hooked more easily.

Very cool. What are some of the habits that you have in your life that are cornerstone habits for you? Maybe there's, you know, two, three, four habits that are part of your daily rhythm. Yeah, I love that. Movement, you know, is the first thing being outside. So being out in nature, fresh air, even if it's just walking my kids to school, walking with them, feeling the sun on my face and literally feeling that vitamin D absorbing helps my spirit. Movement is my number one thing. So just being a body in motion. And most of the time that expresses itself as running. But I love to ride my bike and just cruise around. I'm that person you see just riding around the neighborhood feeling like I'm eight years old, you know, and not for fitness, but just being in motion.

When I move my body, I move my mind and I move that imagination. And that is integral to how I write and how I do my work as a journalist and a writer. So being outside, being in motion, writing for sure. So I keep notebooks, which other people, I guess, would call journals, but I prefer notebooks have this more utilitarian feeling to them. They don't feel quite as precious. And that allows me just to write whatever I want in them and to not feel that I have to write anything special or good. And that's something just circling back to my father when you, you know, that he did teach me. And again, not really by, maybe he said it a few times, but mostly I just watched him. He kept

notebooks all the time, the little spiral notebooks he'd shove in his back pocket. You know, he'd write down things that he thought of. He kept insane track of his gas mileage and within this little notebook that sat in his glove box that was probably, you know, like he probably had like 50 notebooks over the years keeping track, but he just recorded things. And I developed early on that as my habit, my practice was to keep notebooks. And now I write, I probably go through a notebook a month. And a lot of it is like, if I'm working on something in my writing, but I don't want it to feel formal, like that has to be good, I'll write it in my notebook. And, and actually, that's really how I understood that I was writing this book, because I was writing in my notebooks all through my dad's

illness, and after he died, and my anxiety. And it was only maybe two or three years after he died, that I had enough distance, literal distance on his death and perspective, literal perspective from like running up mountains and standing up there and looking down that I understood all of a sudden that I, all that writing, I'd been writing my book, you know, in my books. Do you have a meditation practice? I do have a meditation practice. So sitting would be my other big habit. So if it's movement and nature and writing, the other one is sitting. And I joke about this that I'm, you know, I have far greater stamina for running than I do for sitting.

But I probably I try to sit about 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes every day. And often that's outside I like to combine my habits. So one of my favorite things that I've been doing this fall is I'll ride my bike with my kids to school and then I'll take the long way home up along the river trail. So I'm riding, I'm out in nature and then I get to the river and I'll sit for 15 minutes and then I ride home. And then I'm in that, I've really set myself up for my running and writing day, you know, for my writing and, um, for, for whatever running I'm doing. Is there a form to your meditation? A form?

Like, do I focus on my breath? Yeah. Do you have any structure to it? Yeah. Um, you know, I sit in the same position, so I'll sit cross-legged or on a, if I'm at home, I sit in the same position, so I'll sit cross-legged or on a, if I'm at home, I sit on my meditation cushion and I would say I mostly, um, just key in on my breath. Um, I don't count my breath. Um, I sometimes will use sound as an anchor, you know, so if I'm

sitting by the river, I'll use the river. Um, but it's, it's really, it's pretty simple breathing. I don't listen to any apps or guided meditation. Um, not because I think, you know, I'm very skilled practitioner, but because, um, the voice, you know, distracts me and I kind of find that I want the quiet. Um, and I certainly have all the thoughts, right my brain. And some days my mind is so busy. But I'll just catch myself thinking and I'll either just say thinking or I will come back to my breath. Sometimes I do sit with an idea. Sitting beside the river, I'll think about how the river itself has no obstructions, but the things in the river, the rocks and the leaf clumps are the obstruction. So I'll sit with an idea, but I won't think about it.

I'll just sort of absorb the idea. Eyes open or eyes closed for you? Um, usually closed. Um, because otherwise I find myself drifting into like, Oh, pretty tree or something. But, um, it's not strict. I'm, I'm, I don't, you know, I don't have a strict form, but I, I sort of just toggle between these different ways that works. And the main thing I've, you know, that has helped me is to realize that you're not, it's not about emptying your mind of thoughts, right? Like the thoughts are going to be there, but just, it helps me to think about like, okay, they're coming and let them see them, but then let them pass like clouds, right? So a cloud will come over and then it just goes by and you don't grip onto it. And that's really helped me with my sort of that voice in my head, right? Like, oh, you again, you're the naysayer voice or the anxiety voice. I see you and,

but I'm not going to get caught by you. You know, so mindfulness training takes many forms, you know, the ancient tradition forms to something that people are inventing on their own. Right. And so, uh, it's, uh, I've been enamored with the, the tradition and the process for the past 20 some years. And, um, it sounds like you've got a blend between like a single point focus and something more contemplative as well. And you probably not, not structured. You just kind of go back and forth and kind of sort it out. But I want to tell you a funny story is there's a, um, a world-class athlete I was working with and she was struggling with like her critic, her inner critic. And, um, she was at the beginning days of her meditation practice. And so she says, um, she goes, I figured

it out. And she's super animated. Yeah. Like, and I was like, really? And she says, I love that. Yeah. And she goes, yeah. She goes, let me explain it to you. I said, okay. She says, I've got a shit bird. This is how it works for me. I go, what is that? She says, no, there's this little bird that's been on my shoulder my whole life and it just shits all over me. And so I got these big eyes and I'm like, this is genius, right? And she says, and so I got these big eyes and like, this is, this is genius. Right. And she says, so now I'm just, I'm just shooing the shit bird off my shoulder. That's what meditation is. I'm just shooing.

And I'm just like, not angry about it. I'm like, I see you and I'm shooing off my shoulder. And she says, now I see that it's sitting in the tree and it wants to land on my shoulder. And I just watch it land sometimes. And I just kind of adjust my shoulder. I go, this is great. She goes, you know, what's happening though. This is over time. Like this is a, I'm giving you a condensed conversation of many months. She says, the ship birds, not around as much. I look in trees for it and it's just not there. And so isn't that a cool, like fun way to

think about, um, I don't know, just the inner narrative. I love that. Yeah, so it's a fun insight. Yeah, I think what I've learned too is just not to resist. So whatever is happening, just meet that moment. And it could be that you're sitting, and I find sitting has become more relaxed for me because whatever arises, and if it's I have a busy brain and I have the shit birdbird sitting all over me, whatever it is, I just meet it head on, right? Like my friend Natalie has this saying,

inhabit your life moment by moment. So I'm just inhabiting that moment. And it helps me not resist what's happening and not get critical about my sitting practice, but just to sit. I love it. This is awesome. Okay. So what are the main influences of thought in your life? It sounds like dad was one. It sounds like Zen traditions is another. And then who is that in the Zen traditions? I mean, it's not like there's one book. Well, there is kind of, no, there's, of course there's not one book, but, um, I think that Suzuki Roshi's book, um, yeah, Zen mind, beginner's mind has become a total Bible for me. And, um, I got this not long after I'd broken my leg and, um, I've, I've really, it's like the

golden gate bridge, like painting the golden gate bridge. Like you And I've, I've really, it's like the Golden Gate Bridge, like painting the Golden Gate Bridge, like you, you know, they say, like, as soon as they finish, they have to start over painting it because it takes so long. And you know, like, by the time they're done, it's time to start over again. But that's really how I've been reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, like, I'll just get to the end, and I'll start over. And so that's been really influential to me, sort of having that beginner's mind in my writing and in my running and even in my parenting and kind of just being a partner to my husband. So that's been really formative. But I will say also my mother has been a big influence in that she's sort of that incredibly bright, optimistic person.

And in as much as my father's kind of curiosity and contemplation and observation and creativity rubbed off on me, her optimism and just general joy and belief that everything works out is so deep in me as well. So I'm really a blend of both my parents. And I feel it's funny, because I am such an optimist. And I think, well, how can I be so anxious, if I'm an optimist, but the two are not mutually exclusive, right? I think deep down, I absolutely believe that everything works out and carries you to the next place. But I get that sort of worry brain, the chatter, the noise in between. But it doesn't sway me from the path ultimately that we're going where we're meant to go and it's going to work out. Cool. Have you read Alan Watts' stuff? No. Oh yeah. Check out Alan Watts. It's a kind of a classic as well. I think you might, um, you might feel refreshed, you know, the way Zen is, um, is a really, yeah, it's a,

it's a classic and Tao Te Ching. Are you spending any time? Yes. I, you know, I, I got that recently and I had read it a long time ago and, um, read it with somebody. It's too simplistic. I don with somebody. It felt too simplistic. I don't know. It felt very simplistic. No, I think it's too complicated. Like read it with somebody that can appreciate the depth of it.

It's like, it's a mind boggler. I think my other big thing that I've been really reading lately is Dogen. And that just sort of goes back to the source and is sort of Zen in its and, you know, most fundamental form. And earlier this fall, when I was in this really in sort of intense training block, I would run up in the mountains, long once a week, like 20 to 25 miles, you know, above 10,000 feet on these long solo missions. And I would have read Dogen some passage beforehand. And none of this was premeditated. I wasn't like, I'm going to go read Dogen and then go run on him. But like, I would do that. And

then I would carry what I'd read with me into the mountains and sort of have this transcendent, you know, understanding of, of his words as I ran. And that was, that was a pretty profound experience. You know, when you're talking, I'm thinking about like the more challenging conditions for humanity and it's like chronic stress, sleep, this mythical ridgeline of balance, purpose, you know, like those are some of the big challenges, connection for an end connection, I should say for, for humanity. Can you talk about purpose for a minute and your purpose and what, yeah. Can you, can you riff on that for a little bit? Purpose, yeah.

So what comes to mind is expression for me is my, probably my greatest purpose. And that's like true expression. And so that can come through my writing, like to express the truth of something. And I don't just mean the facts of something, obviously, though, I, you know, I hope that I'm factually accurate, but the essence to express something that possibly many people have experienced, but I'm expressing it in a, in the only the way I can. And I think that goes to, to parenthood too, is to help my daughters find their expression. And running is a form of expression, absolutely, 100% for me. And so I don't know if that's concrete enough, but it feels that expression is my purpose and to express something that maybe other people feel but can't express or don't

have the words for. And certainly that's what I've heard about my book is that people, I've been getting these incredible letters from readers all over who say like, that's exactly how I felt. And I've never been able to put words to it. I think artistic expression is one of the higher forms of the human experience. And, you know, to be able to do that under duress or exact or dissolve duress and to be able to artistically express in every and all environments is what self-mastery looks like to me. And so very cool. Are you more interested in mastery of craft or self? Oh, I don't know if there's a difference.

Yeah, I think there is. I think craft is like the, um, the exact of the foot strike, you know, for let's say a runner, you know, and then I'm not, I'm not, um, a very low tech. Um, I'm not into all, yeah, I don't need, need yeah i definitely more into mastery of self like the craft um if it's serving mastery of self then i'm interested in that but i'm i'm not the runner who wants to you know know every aspect of training or um that kind of thing i'm into the feel of it um sort of how it feels um to in that state, less the technicalities of it. So I've done some initial research of the 200 podcasts that we've had, and we're coming back with some insights around purpose and that values are really important to people exploring mastery. What are the handful of values that matter most to you? If you, if you would agree with, you know, values being important. Definitely. I agree with values. I did. I've worked with a coach, you know, a life coach, maybe

15 years ago when I was starting to think about leaving my job at Outside, and I had been a writer and managing editor there for many years, and it was so wrapped up in my identity, but I knew that I wanted to do my own writing and in my own voice. And the intuition was very strong, but my ego was wrapped up in my job. And, you know, I had to untangle all of that. But when I was working with my life coach, we worked on values. And so they've been got, you know, guiding values in my life. And they're so helpful to make use when you have to make decisions, because it's just very clear, like, does that serve one of my values? No, then the answer is no. So my main values are adventure, which includes, you know, endurance and running and being outside, but adventure, family slash community. So being connected to our home place and, and my home now includes my children and expression. So that's the creative expression and the writing. So they're quite broad. I mean, it's, it's interesting that I didn't say, you know, running or endurance, you know, it was adventure. It's, it's a bigger umbrella that encapsulates our love of rivers and back

country and traveling outside with our kids and taking our kids into wilderness. But it also includes my serious pursuit of ultra running and endurance. What? Like it makes sense. It all, it all, like it really makes sense to me. Oh, it's good. I'm glad. Yeah. This is so like, I mean, I understand. Good. Yeah. To get your, on your values that, cause I can be, it's, you know, like anyone and anxiety is part of this. You've got anxiety creates indecision and some, um, you know, not being clear and lack of clarity, but, but coming back to those values always, you know, cuts through that, that uncertainty. So let me, let me take a quick pass at a couple principles and see if I'm close to this.

I think that you are an extroverted thinker. You're more of an introverted feeler. You're probably more extroverted in nature by default, but I'm not sure about that. I feel like you probably are more go with the flow. And you have this very intuitive way that you organize how information comes in. And I think that you're more street savvy than analytical, but I'm not sure. Yeah, you're totally nailing it. Yeah. And I would imagine that you would prefer a slow paced environment for learning than rather something rapid and fast. And I think you might be a risk taker, but I'm not. Definitely a risk taker. to control was probably born out of like not really knowing from an early age like how much maybe um you mattered but getting the senses that you really did but like that unsortedness

probably left with some control slash anxiety stuff that you know has been mildly or or and intensely pervasive in periods but i i don't think you're like this intellectually competitive person where your ideas have to be right now. It's like, yeah, I don't get that at all for you. It's funny, people think like, you know, if, I don't know if you're successful, or if you're driven to, to, to succeed and win, say, in races that you're a type A. And I don't know, like, I'm too disorganized. I, I you know my interest in being in the flow and sort of going with what presents and sort of go going where the energy is um and you know I'm I'm not that I'm not super structured because I need room for spontaneity but then I also

um yeah I do I do need some organizing structure but example, so a lot of the times how I decide what I'm running or training, I'm very unconventional as an athlete, I think, because I resist having that mapped out plan. Or maybe I'll have the plan, but then I decide each day what I'm going to run or where I'm going to run based on how I feel. I'm like, where do I see myself running and where do I want to run that day? So I need room for spontaneity. And sometimes when I get too locked into things, I get, you know, I feel stifled and I rebel. I have a definite rebellious streak. There we go. Okay. Favorite word right now. What are you vibing with?

What's, what's your word? Oh my God. Favorite word. I don't know. I'm a writer, so I love all words. Can't put you in a corner. Can't put you in a box. I respect.

I think flow is my favorite word right now. What is? Flow. Flow. There you go. Okay, cool. All right. Because we love flow and our energy does.

Yeah. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And like, how can folks that are stimulated by what you've, how you've organized your thinking structure in your life, like, how can they find out more about you? Okay, the first place is my website, katiearnold.net. And I'm on Instagram at Katie Arnold. I'm on Twitter at Raising Rippers, Raising Rippers. That's the name of a column that I started writing for Outside about bringing up kids outside, which is a passion on my website, I'm starting to offer running and writing kind of flow retreats. I'm leading my first two this spring. I'm really excited. I've got one in Zion the last couple of days of February.

I love symbolism and metaphor, but it's going to be over Leap Weekend, right? So Leap Day, which I think is such an exciting day. And it's such a good metaphor for making that leap in our lives. And so I've got one in Zion, and then I'm offering one here in Santa Fe in May. So you can find out all about that on my website. Awesome. Thank you.

And your book, where can you go? Yes, my book, Running Home, is a memoir. And it's not just about running. Obviously, if you've listened to this, you get that vibe. And, and I just want to say one thing about the book, running is sort of the through line through it, you know, but it's much more, it's a memoir about resilience and grief and kind of realizing we're so much stronger than we think. And so running is just my way through those things. But I really have told readers this that like, when I've been on book tour, that pretty much

every time I say running, you could scratch that out and say your thing. And the message is the same, you know, so it's, it's very much a book for non runners, people who are interested in, you know, understanding what their path is and where they're headed but you can buy that on Amazon it's on audible I recorded I narrated the audiobook you can get it as a kindle edition it's all available from random house and but also I'm such a big reader and supporter of local bookstores. So please support your local bookstores. They're so integral to our communities. And if they don't carry Running Home, they'll be more than happy to order it for you.

That's what's up. Katie Arnold, I've loved this conversation. It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you for spending your time and your insight with us. Thank you for sharing all your insights. Great questions and just very thoughtful. Awesome.

Okay. Look forward to next time with you. Okay. Thanks, Michael. Take care. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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