Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Power of Pain, Narcissism, and Vulnerability | AMA Vol.6 with Dr. Mike Gervais

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

There is power in your pain, but how do you use it? Is narcissism required to be successful? Why is vulnerability seen as a weakness?This week, we’re really excited to share the sixth installment of our Ask Me Anything (AMA) series. It’s such a blast filming these and answering your questions. On AMA #6, we dive into some very real topics like the power of pain as it ignites both purpose and growth, if narcissism is necessary for success, how underdogs make for good company, and why a simple question like “how are you?” helps us explore our relationship to our own authenticity.  For this AMA, I’m stoked to welcome back a dear friend of Finding Mastery’s — actor, improv artist, and host of his own podcast, O’Neil Cespedes. O’Neil dropped by to bring his curiosity and candor to a really awesome conversation. It’s an incredible honor to answer the questions you’re all sending in, and they continue to lead us to some extremely rich and insightful places. As always, feel free to email [e-mail] with feedback or any questions you may have for future AMAs._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of how triggers influence your thoughts and how once you get on a thought train, it takes you down a path. Become great at understanding that. Welcome back to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. Once again, it's an incredible honor to answer the questions you're all sending in. And I'm so stoked to welcome back a dear friend of the podcast for this AMA, actor, improv artist, host of his own podcast, Three Black Guys on a Couch, O'Neill Cespedes.

He's here to bring his curiosity and candor to this conversation. Your thoughtful questions led us to some really important topics. We'll dive into the power of pain as it ignites both purpose and growth. If narcissism is necessary for success, how underdogs make for good company, and why a simple question like, how are you, helps us to explore our relationship with our own authenticity. As always, feel free to email us at info at findingmastery.net with feedback or any questions you have for future AMAs. And if you're enjoying this podcast

and haven't already, just a quick reminder to hit the subscribe or follow button and to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost way to support the show. And with that, let's jump right into the Mastery Lab with the ever insightful O'Neill Cespedes for another round of Ask Me Anything. O'Neill, it is great to have you back. It's great to be back. Yeah. So I had so much fun on the last one that it was like people were totally vibing on the way that we connected. That's awesome. And so like, I thought we'd just take another run at it. But before we get started, like, how are you doing with your phone? I was afraid you were going to ask me that. And so I prepped a response for you on the way over here.

I'm doing well with my phone. Okay. There's a boundary here, right? I'm doing well with my phone doing well with my phone all right and and folks who might have missed the first conversation um o'neill sleeps with his phone so there's a lot there to unravel yeah yeah there's a lot uh meaning i sleep next to my phone in case you know you're confused i sleep next to it um all the time even when i nap so um what have you been up to nothing much our podcast you know three black guys on the couch been on that um just got back from new york a couple weeks ago probably

headed back out there again and uh just you know keeping busy keeping busy yeah that's what's up sometimes busy is the new it's the new school way of saying like, I'm good. Which I have a little bit of a rash when I hear busy. But do you equate busy with good? No. No, you don't. Yeah. No. No, but it's interesting because if you say, let's be real, obviously we should be honest

with one another, but if you say, how you doing, what's going on? And I was like, man, I'm about to get evicted. My mom, her leg got amputated. I don't have any money to buy food. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I don't know. Is this real or not real? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

This is not real. But you're saying if you were to dress? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I was to go into all of that, you'd be like, yo, bro, listen, man. I got a life to live. I don't want to hear all this heavy stuff. So even though we probably shouldn't fabricate on how well or unwell we're doing,

you don't want to unload. Well, let's make an agreement, you and me. So when we talk, let's just say what it is. Okay, let's do it. I'm going to look you in the eye because I look to the left. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

Both ways. Both ways, me too. Yeah. Yes. Let's do that. Let's do that. Both ways. Both ways. Me too. And that's a good little promise to make. I like that because I vibe with what you're saying is that the social pleasantries, we're practicing being dishonest. Yeah. And then when we're practicing being dishonest, we are presenting a false self.

And look at all the social media. It's the practice of the highlight reel. And I think it's a bit, I don't know, I'm exhausted by it. And so it's so refreshing to just have conversations with folks that are like, this is what's up for me. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. The downside or the dark side of that is like, you want to be completely honest and not, you know, show your highlight reel, but you also, you know, at least I can speak for

myself. There's a level of embarrassment. Like if I tell you how unwell I'm doing, I'm afraid that you'll judge me because most do judge as well. Like some will say, most will say, tell me what's really going on in your life. I want to know. Don't lie. But then when I tell you, there's this fear of you looking down on me or thinking less of me, or now I've put my personal business out there. So you know what I mean?

That's right. Yeah. So that concept, FOPO, fear of other people's opinions, or fear of people's opinions, I think it's one of the great constrictors of human potential and it's alive in you. You didn't even know about that thing called FOPO, right? And so you're describing it like eloquently. And then the, I think the other thing is if you do that and you do, let's say you feel safe with

somebody, you say, you know, I've got this, I got this little narrative in my mind. Like, should I? Yeah. You know what? I feel like it's a good spot to be real with you or whoever. And then there's the second foot that drops, which is like, hold on. Is he or she going to tell someone else? And then how's that going to get interpreted? And how's that going to come around professionally? How's that going to come around and affect me in another way? So there's this second foot that's ready to drop as well, even if the relationship feels safe.

1000%. In that moment. 1000%. There there you go that's exactly how it feels do you feel like you're managing because you're you're a you know you got in your professional stride do you think that you're managing in an unhealthy way that that like what they think about me 100 yeah you are 100 because i come through the door with it no matter what's going on in my life you know um I've been raised to because it's part of how I've been raised um to keep those things secret so I could be going through the worst thing the minute I step through the door and I see you and the whole crew whoever the crew is I'm putting on this mask and i the whole goal is to not let you know that i'm going through anything painful because i don't want to be judged um uh i don't want to

reveal something so vulnerable because it makes me vulnerable and um yeah i just want to save face so i'm gonna come to the door i'm gonna laugh i'm gonna joke i'm gonna mask it in any way i possibly can there's a concept that comes up a lot, which is the two selves. Yeah. You know, like I'm one way in this crew and I'm another way in that environment. I'm a third way over here. But the two selves in particular are one way at home and one way at work.

And it's exhausting for people. Extremely. Yeah. And so there's a classic book. I don't know if you ever read this book. It's not well-written and it's pretty obscure. And those are maybe not great for big publication here, but it's called The Knight in Rusty Armor.

The Knight in Rusty Armor. And I'll get to the punchline. The idea is that we are like knights with this heavy armor and we're constantly shining the armor and we're having to keep it up and oil it and put all the right wax on it. And it're having to keep it up and oil it and put the, you know, all the right wax on it. And it's exhausting to carry it because it's heavy. It's exhausting to manicure it and keep it kept well. So it looks nice. It's exhausting.

When really like what's wrong with moccasins and what's wrong with like some flip-flops or what's wrong with some sandals or, you know, like, and a little bit lighter shed the armor and a lighter way of going through life and so that's the premise that they make up from from armor you know like the knight in shining armor but the knight in rusty armor into something way more casual it's a it's a cool it's a cool arc that you know what's interesting about that whole thing is we tend to hide our pain, right? And we shine our armor up as much as we possibly can. But we're fascinated by true vulnerability when we see it expressed in an artistic way. Like, I want the messed up person on screen, right? Because they're expressing themselves in a way that I wish I could express myself, right?

I want this damaged, dark artist singing the song because they're singing in this moody way that I may have felt on a few occasions or many occasions, but I'm afraid to express it. So we marvel at it when we see it presented to us in a theatrical way, but when it comes to really performing it or really doing it, we're like, no, no, no,

no, no, no. I'm good. I'm good. Good. Yeah. I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm busy.

Yeah. Every day, every day, you know. All right, cool. So let's, we've got some great questions that have been rolling in. So let's, let's see if we can wrestle with a few of these. All right, great. So here, first question from Naomi. I'm an executive at a medium-sized Silicon Valley company,

and I feel like I've run into a glass ceiling. I know there are a lot of women like Sheryl Sandberg or Meg Whitman who have risen to the top of tech companies, but in my experience, it's still a boys' club. Do you have any suggestions about the best way to break through that ceiling? What are the best internal skills I can put into play? Because I don't see the external environment changing anytime soon.

It's a good one. It's a tough one. Very tough one. And let's use a framework that I've found to be useful. Outside in and inside out. So the outside in is the environment that she's talking about. So all of the environmental conditions. And when we focus on outside in, when we put ourselves in a position to focus on outside in, we're de-levered. So we don't have as much leverage as if we can focus on

the things that are inside out, which is our own responses, our psychological skills. So inside out, outside in, she's already hinting at that question, which is like, I, our psychological skills. So inside out, outside in, she's already hinting at that question, which is like, I don't see the external changing. So how can I increase my leverage on paying attention to the internal? So that that's a framework that's really important first and foremost. So I would say you're already on the right path. Check. The second thing is like, what can I concretely do is have a compelling future, have a vision of a compelling future. Like when I think about three years, five years, three months, six months, whatever the horizon time is, is that can you use your imagination

to create a future that is incredibly compelling? And we call that setting your vision. And I always have this little cringe when I say the word vision, because it sounds like vision board, which is, I guess it could be, but that's not what this is. Great athletes use their imagination. Great performers use their imagination to see what success later will look like and feel like. The research around this is quite compelling. So that's the first thing to do is to use your powerful imagination and have a compelling future that you're working towards. What does that mean? It's quite simple. It's like, how do I imagine myself experiencing life? Not the external world's changing, but how do I imagine

myself experiencing life three years from now? And you go, whoa, that's kind of overwhelming. You can thin slice it as a father, as a friend, as a business person, as a mother, as a whatever the role might be. You can go different than a goal. This is not setting a goal like I want to make X number of money or have this type of role in the company. It's not that. It's a compelling future that is based on your imagination. So when I say that to you as a performer, where do you naturally go with self-realization, going internal, not concerning yourself with the outside entities and things that are going on. What is my response going to be? How am I going to handle this? Because ultimately, I think the way you respond to every single circumstance that's outside of you determines the height you'll get to. It's easier said than done, obviously, but because we're, again, overly concerned with what's going on on the outside. We're always looking through the window rather than, you know, tending to what's going on in our house. So where we win in this conversation is

when we have a compelling future and part two, we have purpose that's really clear. And so when purpose is really clear, you can work through just about any pain, whatever the external triggers are for the internal pain. When your purpose is really clear, you can work through it. But when purpose is not big enough or clear enough, pain wins. To have good purpose, it's got to be bigger than you. It's got to matter to you, and it's got to be so big that you can't solve it like right now. Wow. This is so crazy because I had the same conversation with a friend a couple of days ago at a coffee shop about how important purpose is and how driving it can be.

The same exact conversation. Yeah, right. That's it. It's amazing. Are you saying this is not new or revolutionary? No, no, no, no, no. It's new and revolutionary. You, you, uh, elocuted it so well. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn sales solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive

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With that being said, because that is one of the hardest things on the earth to do, to express yourself truly and be you. How does one even go about starting to, because most of us aren't that. Even if you're that most of the time, in certain situations,

sometimes you go into a situation and you'll put on a face. Okay, so how zero to 100? 100 is like, I'm being honest with myself in this moment. Where are you at? On me being me? Right now?

Right now? Yeah. I'm like 75% me. 75? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so what's the difference between the 75 to the 100? What's getting in the way?

I want to exude a level of professionalism on camera, on the mic right now, as opposed to me just cursing every other word. So what would you need internally? So you don't need anyone else to unlock that. But what would you say to yourself to unlock that gap between 75 and 100? What would I say to myself to unlock that gap? I mean, I guess the cliche thing that anyone would say to themselves, be you.

Relax. Take a deep breath. Don't be nervous. Don't care what anybody thinks. Yeah, that type of stuff. So where I would go with that is like, when I feel that way that you're feeling, I almost have to get to an agitated place. Yeah. So what we're going to talk about is self-talk. Okay. So your question is, how do you do that? And the answer is self-talk. What you say to yourself is the pathway through

that gap. Okay. So if you want to go from 75 to 76 or 75 to 85 it's the way you speak to yourself okay so there's three options there's in any moment i'm going to oversimplify it grossly oversimplify it you can walk into a situation anxious you could you could be angry yeah or you could be poised and i'm purposely creating a dichotomy here. So the poised bit is like what we all want. Like 100% like mind like water. Totally authentic, fluid, rolling with the moment, adjusting eloquently. Like that's the good spot, right? Now, if I can't find that, if you can't find that spot, let's say, would you rather,

no, I'll just use me. If I can't find that place and I've got two ranges, scared or angry, I'm going to index on anger. I don't want to be an angry human. But when I put myself in that situation and I say, you know what? Fuck this. Like, why am I, why am I holding back? So I have to get to that state. Because if I let too much of the anxiety take over, all of a sudden I'm small and I'm thinking about everybody else and I'm a bit of a mess and I'm trying to manage something. So that anxiety is not good for me. It feels like it lasts longer and it's a bit heavier than the anger is more temporary.

So I'm not yet where everywhere I go i'm 100 100 me so this is maybe something you can play with it's like i don't know if you want to do that or not but i would suggest playing with and it shows up in great ways in sport and but you gotta be careful because it can bite you. And if it bites you in this way, it's like you're playing with fire, basically. And there might be a different thing that you're thinking right now, like, oh yeah, but if I'm a little bit taller than you, Mike, my complexion's a little bit darker.

And if I show up angry, it's different. And so when I say that, what happens for you? When you say get angry? Yeah. Because that's what works for me, but it might not work for others. You know, I've never really given it – when I try to talk myself into being 100% myself, the anger thing has never been a thing I've used as a tool. It's more of, you know, let me try to take a deep breath. Let me think about what makes me feel happy and comfortable.

What makes me laughter is one of the things. Like if I'm laughing a lot, then I ease into who I am because then it sets a level of comfort for me. There you go. So that's how you work with the anxiousness. Yeah. Like you're looking for peace. Yes, yes. There you go. So that's how you work with the anxiousness. Like you're looking for peace. Yes, yes.

There you go. Definitely. I'm trying to woo side out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it a lot better. I'm not as good as that. Yeah, yeah. But with that being said,

I do understand channeling it through anger. Like, man, fuck, did I just curse? Forget this. Forget this. Don't curse out there. Yeah. Where did you learn that, that cursing is not cool? No, what?

I curse all the time. Yeah. Cursing is cool. I just don't care. I'm just not, you know. It's that a friend of mine was like, what are you concerned with your brand? And I never thought about that before.

And I was like, man, you're right. I think I'm a little bit concerned with my brand brand you know but it just again again if we're all laughing and you say something and then you you you put me at ease i'm cursing and i'm speaking freely and i'm going because now there's that level of comfort and i'm like i just going to say whatever. That's one of the things that I feel like at any given point in time, I'm a razor's edge away from being canceled. You know, and like just managing that. And I don't, I'm not saying things that are aggressively critical or like, I'm not, I'm not going into those places. Yeah. But boy, it feels like it can happen quickly.

And do you, do you work it feels like it can happen quickly. Do you work with that as well internally? Definitely, definitely, because you're gonna be judged anyway. I could present the best me possible, the most refined version of me possible, and there will always be someone to have something to say. So rather than saying that I'm gonna just speak freely and be myself, it works the opposite. I'm like, well, I'm going to try to be as refined as possible because I'm going to be

judged anyway. So, you know, let me try to be as judged as little as possible. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. I think we covered a lot of territory there. Yeah, a lot of territory.

Okay. What else do we have? So we got Aubrey. In real estate, it seems that everyone who is successful is a narcissist. Is narcissism a prerequisite to be successful? Okay, this is tough. It depends on the environment. You know, there's some environments that are narcissism is rewarded.

So in elite sport, there's a reward for being narcissistic. Let me pause and explain what I mean here. There's a difference between NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, and being self-absorbed. And so NPD is relatively rare And it is an incredibly scary place for those people. So the world, they've had such an internal early fracture within themselves that they no longer can tell the difference between themselves and another person. And it is a very scary place for NPDs. And I'll just thin slice, there's lots of types, subtypes of narcissistic personality disorder, like the vulnerable narcissist,

which is the person that consumes a conversation or a relationship with how screwed up they are, so that you'll give them all of their attention. It's clever. You know these people. I know these people. Yeah, okay, good. I'm gonna say that next time. I mean, you're a vulnerable narcissist. of their attention it's clever you know these people i know these people yeah yeah okay good i'm gonna say the next day i mean you're a vulnerable narcissist

so um but then there's these there's there's a couple clicks down from that where it's like the conversation keeps resolving around revolving around the person or they'll do whatever it takes you know because they're really only thinking about themselves more than other people. They're not great teammates, but they are searching for power and control often. That's where they feel safe and that's where they feel verified. And that creates top of the food chart or top of the org chart for many people.

So yeah, I think it's a real thing. I think it's unbecoming. And I think that they swim in the waters of high stakes environments. And so is it necessary? No. Is it frequent in some of the high performing environments? A hundred percent. And in your world, there's lots of them in the sport world. There's lots of them. Great deal. That's for sure. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you have to be one though, to the, to the to the question no you don't need to be one to be successful matter of fact i would say that that would be kind of the opposite of success yeah you know if you're defining success it's probably where we should have started this conversation is like what is success and have you gotten that

answer down for you i think i'm getting there right because um obviously you know and i always tell this story you know um i had a friend really a really successful guy and he said to me there's nothing worse than battling to get to this level in your life and then staking everything on it and then finally getting there and realizing that, you know, it's not the end all be all and it doesn't grant you that happiness. And he said he was so real. I mean, I was looking into his eyes and I was like, damn, like you, you, you're really feeling it right now because you really expected this level that you're at right now to ease all your

pain. And obviously, I was in a less fortunate situation than him as he was telling me that, and I was younger. So as he was saying that, I'm like, man, whatever you talk, you're rich, man. You're crazy as hell. So when I get money like you, I'm not going to be complaining like that. But as things started unfolding more and more for me, I'm starting to realize that, you know, you have to set a, what's up, what's the, not a number, sometimes a number when it comes to chasing money, because obviously people equate, you know, success with, you know, financial gains. But I think that you have to put a limit and say, okay, what do I need in my life in order to say that I'm successful? If I can travel

all the time, if I can pay my bills, if I can bless and help others at times, and if I can find peace a lot of times, I'm successful. So I think of just labeling what you think success is. And then when you're getting there, stopping and enjoying enjoying that as opposed to saying, you know what? I got 10. Maybe I can get 20. I travel to 30 places. Maybe I can travel to 60. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I think that once you're clear about what success is, then the conversation about narcissism, you know, changes.

It gets transmuted a bit. Okay, so I have a question. So how does Aubrey or a person like Aubrey in her situation work with or for a narcissist? Yeah, that's another, that's a good double-click here. Carefully, because they'll suck the energy right out of the relationship.

And so living with a narcissist or working with a narcissist is pretty dangerous. And we know that in when somebody is in a quote-unquote unhealthy relationship or in a relationship with somebody that is really struggling and they're sucking all the energy out of the relationship to feel their wound or or their hurt that um it's at the expense of your well-being so if you're working with a narcissist um boundaries is kind of the clear the clearest thing that you can do. What's okay and what's not okay.

That would be the first place to start. You want to be thoughtful about not backing a narcissist into a corner because they'll flip the chessboard and pieces go everywhere. So they won't be – you don't checkmate a narcissist. So you have to work with – if they're a true NPD. Now, if they only, if it's a couple clicks down and they're only just thinking about themselves and not thinking about you, that just might be a selfish person. So I need to calibrate, and I'm thinking about a true NPD right now. So a true NPD, don't back them into a corner, make sure you've got clear boundaries and have the internal skills to back yourself when a boundary is being pushed, set the boundary early and often. So it's established like, Oh,

I got to go hunt somewhere else to get my needs met because this person's going to be a problem. You might get fired if you do that, but it's, but you're in, you know, if you're in an unhealthy place, I mean, you know, I would start looking for another job if that if that person or figuring out how to work around that person but that almost sounds like I'm coming from a place of luxury which I'm not I did not come from money I don't that's not my upbringing and so I'd rather have a way of living than um than some money in my pocket it sounds like a daunting task to work for an NPD. Yeah, NPD, yeah. Narcissistic personality is a hard thing to do.

That leads me to this question. Everyone is throwing around the term narcissist, right? You suffer from narcissism. So I've never quite heard it put like the way you put it, which makes them seem so dangerous and hard to deal with. Because, you know, at least in my world, everyone's a narcissist to some degree, or at least according to another person. So is there a clear cut definition or do you think that term is just being thrown around too loosely? Because when you talk about an NPD, you mean a true NPD, not just someone that's unfairly labeled.

Yeah, that's exactly it. So it's. We're in a culture right now where people flex a lot. And that flex is, look at me. And so we're throwing around, kind of like WebMD or medical.com, we're throwing around medical terms, psychologically researched and well-understood terms casually. And so there's a difference here, right? So part one is we're in a world and a context where people are looking at themselves a lot and sharing the best versions of themselves publicly. And I think the reaction is why we're using that word so much because we're

having a reaction saying I'm exhausted. And I think a lot of people are attending to the highlight reels of others and not getting to the real stuff. So what's the quickest thing we can grab is the phrase narcissism. And so it's, you know, it's like I'm anxious. Well, it's born out of like clinical anxiety or is it clinical anxiety we're talking about or is it nervousness? And there's a difference. Same with NPD, narcissisticistic personality disorder narcissism and selfishness they're different and they can coalesce together but they're different and so i don't know that's part of it is just kind of knowing the specificity um with specificity what we're talking about okay quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation finding mastery Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high

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I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Graze in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer

without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. So, okay. What about being selfish then? I mean, is that, would you say that's a requirement to being successful to some degree?

Yeah, that's a good question because to go the distance, it's gonna probably be a problem, okay? So there's a loneliness at the top, quote unquote, because for one reason, it's hard to to share if you're the only person in your community that's climbed everest and seen those flowers and smelt those smells and seen those you know those sites and whatever like it's hard to come back down and relate so there's a loneliness at the top and sometimes with that loneliness there is a craving to connect and people can't connect.

So it's kind of like, fuck it. So that's one element that relates to selfishness. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. You just made me, I want to make sure I remember this. I want to ask you now. Because it made me think about something I heard Kobe say, and I'd never thought about it in this way before.

And because people labelby as extremely selfish. And he said that he was like, I practice with you. I watch you at practice every day. You don't put up as many shots as I put up. You don't work as hard as I work. You don't do the things that I do, you know? So when it's game time, why would I pass you the ball? Why would I give you, I don't trust you enough

because I know your work ethic and I know who you are. And it blew my mind because I was like, that makes sense. To a fan, a casual fan, or just fans, period, it doesn't make sense, right? But it makes sense. If I know your habits and I know how you are, number one, I definitely can't connect with you. Number two, I definitely can't trust you. And in some respects, I think I'm looking down on you and praising myself because I'm like, I'm doing all this. You're not. Is that such a bad thing? Well, I mean, holding a standard is really important for excellence. And so he's holding a standard is what he's doing. And he says,

your standard is not to the level that I would expect to be great. So you don't want to be great. So I'm not sure that you're going to be able to manage when the moment calls for it. So I think that that's part of it. So where I was going is like, there's a selfishness once you've attained some success and you're, you're adding to that, which is like, yeah. And there's another complication, which is like, I'm going to take care of myself because I'm watching you. And it doesn't look like you have what it takes, you know, for me to trust you. So I'm going to, I'm going to take care of me. And then the other part is the approach to the top of the mountain, whatever that means for somebody, the approach to there is like, if the vision is really clear and the motivation and drive are compelling,

then somebody has got a high motor and they know what they're working for. That's somebody that could fall into a selfish trap pretty quickly if their needs are more important than others. And so, yeah, I think that it's tricky. It's really tricky. And I don't want to be that person. And I've recognized in my life that I have been that person. So as we're talking about it, I've lived that. And it's one of my greatest regrets in my relationship with my loved ones is that in some cases, I have put the ambition ahead of the relationship. It almost got me divorced.

And so unfortunately, I understand this. Let me ask this question then, because obviously it's a painful truth. Like you just said that it almost got you divorced. But on the flip side, did it not have its benefits as well? Did it not propel you to a certain level? So how do we know which is, and I'm asking this just from a truly curious standpoint. How do we know what was right and what was wrong? Because we haven't been given a handbook to say, well, hey, you shouldn't be like this.

Because it's yielded benefits for you still. Yeah, a lot. I mean, yeah. I didn't know better. Yeah. So that's kind of how I came to the relationship. And she didn't know better on how to manage that motor and ambition.

And so, you know, I don't, I don't want to take it back, but I wish, I wish that I didn't create the pain that I created, but then without that pain, I wouldn't have had the change. And she wouldn't have had the change and we wouldn't have had that deep repair, which created like this depth in our relationship. And so, I think that I didn't know better,

and I don't know how I would have known better. And so that part is like, I don't really know how to answer the question, but it has created great benefits. And now I'm really clear with this insight that nobody does it alone. And when people ask, how do the best in the world do it? I don't point to selfishness or narcissism.

I do point to a support system. Nobody does it alone. And so whatever level of success I've had in my life is that I first and foremost have to point right to my best friend and partner, life partner, business partner, someone who's backed me my whole, that's it. It's not my capabilities. They're there, but they were pressed on and encouraged and supported and challenged in an honest way my whole life. And so that's been an incredible gift to have. Gotcha. Yep. But I recognize the selfishness.

It was an incredible cost along there. So let's be incredibly tactical. If you're in a conversation with somebody who's incredibly selfish, let's just say, maybe they're a narcissist, we don't necessarily know for this discussion, is that it's incredibly important on that boundary piece that you say to yourself with great clarity that the relationship, engaging in the relationship or enduring the way that

I'm suffering in this relationship is not working for me. So you have to come from a place. And then if you can anchor to that place, the micro choices you make in the conversation will be easier. So anything I'm about to say now doesn't work if you don't come from that place, like this is not okay. Okay. So if I'm sitting with a narcissist and having a conversation and I'm, I'm feeling like I don't matter in the conversation and it's been no, it's I'm noticing it. Okay. I'll, I will stop a conversation. I'll say, Hey, listen, um, I'm clear on what your ambition or what your goal or what you want to see happen is. I got it. Is it this? And I play it back to them. They go, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. I say, great. I say, I'd love to hear how you're seeing the success for me in this

as well. So now I'm not defending myself. I'm not saying you're not seeing me. I'm asking a question to calibrate. If the person can't calibrate, then I have an opportunity to say, no, it's actually not that. I'm glad we're talking about this though. Okay. And so if you want to work with a narcissist, you have to put them in a position where they don't feel threatened and that it's their idea. And so there's an art to working with the narcissist or the highly selfish person that they think that their genius, great, feed into it. But I caution because the relationship can quickly turn into one-sided. And so if you don't come from that place,

that there's a clear boundary that I'm establishing and I matter in this conversation, I got to understand if you understand what's important for me, and then we're going to shake hands on that. And we're going to get that together. That's, that would be the art of working with a narcissist. Wow. I like that. I actually like, that's a very interesting way to approach a narcissist or just a conversation with someone that you want to get something from. Where do you see me benefiting in this? Yeah. I like that. I'm going to try that. How's this a mutual win? How are you seeing? So if I have what I understand your success looks like, you know, are you, are you able to articulate that for me? I want to

make sure we're on the same page. Yeah. Wow. Cause most of the time we do go on the attack. Like I'm not getting this from you. I'm not, I'm not seeing this. I'm not. And then they attack back. Yeah. Now the other thing, uh, the nuance in these relationships is that at some point it's really good just to say flat out, like, Hey, this doesn't work. Are you kidding me? You know, like this has, this has, this sounds good for you. This isn't working for me. Yeah. You know, and that's the last resort. It doesn't have to be. Okay. So that for some narcissists, you just got to set it early. But if you're already kind of entangled and you want to be in the relationship for whatever reason,

it's more transactional at this point than it is fueling wellness and wellbeing. Then there's a judo. That's always been my first go-to. This ain't working. Not even saying, where do you see me in all of this? That's probably healthy. That's probably really healthy.

Yeah, because I almost feel like, and I'm not a great, listen, I am not a great boundary layer at all. Oh, you're not. I'm horrible at setting boundaries. I have, either I let you walk all over me or I just blow the whole house up. I don't have a midway point. I'm like, oh, yeah, whatever you want. I'm gone.

To hell with it. You'll never see me again. I disappear. So oh yeah, whatever you want. I'm gone. To hell with it. You'll never see me again. I disappear. So that's, I usually go to the. Practice a little jujitsu. Yeah. Practice a little judo in there.

You're right. I need that. I need to. I need to put that in there. Yeah, that's it. A lifelong lesson. All right. So Gary D has a question.

What has been the most challenging experience of your life professionally and its lessons? As a theme theme it is not knowing if i have what it takes so as a theme it is you know feeling like i don't have the requisite abilities to to be myself authentically in any environment. So that's generally the theme. And that shows up less than it ever did, but it showed up a lot when I was younger. And so the greatest professional disappointment was the cost of my intimate love life. So the

selfishness that I experienced in my ambition to build something professionally cost me greatly in my personal life with my wife. And so it's the regret there that I have that is the biggest thing. And so I'll pause there because the relationship is better than it's ever been. We have a great enduring 35 year relationship, but that's the part that haunts me is that I put profession instead in front of personal. Okay. So the second is there was a, there was a moment where, um, I was young early in my career and there was this event that was taking place. It was, you know, um, events, not the right word. There was a moment where 10 of the gurus in the field, 10 of the, the old guard in the field that really were carving a

path for us, you know, young guns is that they, they were informally going to get together. And one of them said, Hey, why don't we get one of don't the 10 of us each nominate like one of the young person coming up and let's have an exchange of ideas. So you can see like the masters of craft and then, you know, the, the wet behind the ears is what kind of what's happened, these two groups. And there was, uh, what they did is they just basically nominated their favorite graduate student. And then I wasn't on that list. My, one 10 were not in that first group there. Or my professor that I was closest with was not in that group. But I had been doing some stuff in the field. So they knew some of them said, yeah, yeah, let's bring him too. So there's 21 people, not 20. I was the one, the extra one, the hanging chat, if you will. And so it was the most amazing three days of my life. And so pages of notes, but more importantly, just seeing how they operated, the greats in our field and how

they thought and how they were learners. And when one of the, uh, one of the masters was speaking, the other nine were taking notes. And of course all of the young people were. And so it was an awesome moment. And then the older crew went off and they, um, you know, beer and pizza or whatever they did for dinner. And the young crew went off and we had dinner. It was awesome. And so in that, I was already on the Nike Global Performance Advisory Council, which was awesome. It was 13 people that were just incredible worldwide trying to solve human performance,

you know, under the Nike flag. And so I brought that up into the room and I was like, Hey, listen, there's a chance here that we could as sports psychologists, budding sports psychologists, we could create a little network. And I've got some air cover and some interest, you know, to maybe potentially build this thing out. And it was early days and I was ahead of my skis a little bit. And I felt that moment, the room was like, and we're in like a cheap hotel room. Like we didn't have any money, beer and pizza. Like I said, I felt the room change. And they looked at me like, oh, you're not here for the right reasons.

And nothing was said next day. No, it's amazing experience. But I had that feeling that something happened. 13 months later, I get a call from one of those 10 that say, hey, man, we did round two. I was really bummed you weren't there. Wow. So I called the main person. I was devastated. It was the most powerful experience professionally that I've ever had. And I wasn't asked back to the dance. And there was a pit in my stomach. There was a loneliness.

There was like all of that stuff. Like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not good enough. I don't have what it takes. And then I got mad. I got mad. So there was like this internal vacuum that took place. I told my wife about it, and she could tell I was rattled by it, and then instantly, like I didn't want to sit in that long enough, so I got pissed and I called them. And I probably should have taken a couple beats before I called them.

And so- Blew up the house. Well, not too much, but I was professional. But at one point in the conversation, I said, I told him I was hurt. And like, I understand if you wanted to go a different direction or invite different people, but like, I feel like you should have called me

and let me know. And so he's like, yeah, but you know, I knew you'd understand. Right in that moment moment right when he said that i went i felt like this dragon woke up in me and i was like oh yeah i'm good and i i so meant it like i felt this dragon and i had a little too much heat that moment you know which is like fuck you guys i'm coming yeah you know like okay you're i'm not part of the club fuck i'm gonna burn this shit down and then i was like no no that's not the right way to do this but i was

trying to capture that heat to say mike be honest go for go for what you see is your best work consistently just be your very best do your very best work and then that whole thing about you're not good enough washes away because you're in an honest approach to do your very best work and that was the origin story of it and so it's worked but that was the professionally the most painful experience i've ever had is um having this incredible huge high and then not being included back again but that but the that lesson you know that you got out of it was it woke up a dragon in you it made you more of a, quote unquote, a hustler. You're like, fuck you guys. Yeah.

I'm cussing now because you just cursed. Yeah. Okay. Now we're okay. We're okay. That, now going back to the whole angry thing to make you comfortable and all that stuff, I use anger for things like that. You do?

I use anger for things like that. When being excluded, thinking that I'm supposed to be of a certain elk or in a certain room, right. That conjured up this thing in you and made you say, okay, it probably helped drive you. I have a question about this whole thing. Why is it that we, we see and hear stories all the time of people that were, you know, not picked on their basketball high school team, like a Jordan or a person that had to sleep on mattresses in the alley. We hear all these stories of these underdogs all the time. It's almost cliche to me.

I almost feel like if you're an underdog, you're just being set up for something great because you're in good company, as they say, right? Most people that are mad successful are underdogs, right? So why is it, if that's the case, do we still get down like you got down when you were excluded from being called back for the second time, knowing in the back of our heads that if I'm an underdog, there's a million underdogs that made it happen. And usually this is the thing that sparked the flame. I don't know. It was, it was so, I love, I love this.

I've never thought about it this way. The main part of my thinking has always been like, Oh, I go from hurt to anger. And, and then I try to channel it into competitiveness, which I don't want to do that anymore. That's not how I want to do my life anymore. What you just said is why,

why go hurt when you know that that's good company. And I've never had that thought. So I think, I think the, the main thing for me is that, and I'll just speak for me is that was, it was honest because what I really wanted was to be part of something special because I needed that to feel like I was okay. And I was dependent, unfortunately on somebody else saying be included to be okay. And so being kicked out, not being good enough is like, I don't know. I don't, I imagine most people would relate to what I'm saying. Like

that's an awful feeling, but if you don't need it, which I don't need it maybe as much as I once did, or maybe even very little at this point, there's a freedom on the other side of it. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most

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I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence,

the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. Okay. So I've got a question from Jake. I have much to be grateful for in life. My health, healthy, beautiful children. I enjoy my work. If I'm honest, in the moment, I really don't want for much I'm aware that life

is short and precious but rather than leaning into the blessings I generally feel there's always a challenge or a problem out there to solve how can I live into the moment rather than attending to the next thing I wasn't like that when I was 20 years old and Jake says he misses the magic and the mystery of his younger days. It's cool, it's a cool question. So what we're talking about is anxiety versus being here now.

And so anxiety is an excessive worry about what could go wrong later. And that could be clinical or it could just be temporary. So clinical anxiety is the pervasive, excessive rumination about, well, if this happens, what could happen later? And it's always about solving the later in a catastrophe type of way. And so that is so overwhelming that we key ourselves up

to be so vigilant to make sure that something bad doesn't happen to us. That's kind of what clinical anxiety is really about. And you can have it, clinical anxiety, there's two forms, technically three. There's cognitive anxiety, somatic anxiety, and then a combination of the two. Cognitive isn't the excessive worry. Somatic is when you feel it, blood pressure, heart rate. There's a sweating that comes with it. I remember when I went through a phase of anxiety that just brushing my teeth in the morning, my hands were shaking. I had brushed my teeth like 15 minutes after getting out of bed or whatever it is, and my hands are shaking because I'm so worried about later. And state of anxiety as opposed to the state of being fully present.

To be present, it's one of the great unlocks for human flourishing is living more frequently in the present moment. And that is the great science of studying how the extraordinaries work, the science of psychology of success or the psychology of sport is what do the greats do to work from the inside out so that they can be more present more often? And the easy example is like, how do the great show up at the Super Bowl and do their thing at the highest level where some people show up at the Super Bowl and they choke or microchoke or don't perform under pressure. And so there are very specific skills that can lead to being more present more often. Mindfulness is one of them. Recovering in a world-class way. So making sure

that all of the replenishing and regenerative practices like sleeping and nutrition and stretch and all of those are dialed in so that you have the right type of zest and fire for life. Knowing how to back yourself and build your confidence is another one. Knowing how to be calm, knowing how to breathe to be able to manage the intensity that you're feeling inside, to down-regulate your response to stress is critical. So there's a handful of them that are really important. And so if you want to live Manage the intensity that you're feeling inside to downregulate your response to stress is critical. So there's a handful of them that are really important.

And so if you want to live in the present moment more often, I would start with mindfulness. Become intimately aware of how triggers influence your thoughts and how once you get on a thought train, it takes you down a path. Become great at understanding that. And that would be a significant unlock. Mindfulness a la meditation. Okay. So with that, the second part of Jake's question when he was like, you know, I miss what I was like when I was 20 years old. You know, I miss the magic and the mystery of my younger days. So it got me to thinking like, you know, that, um, that lack of anxiety that he's talking about that he wants to capture and just, just living carefree

and having this magic, so to speak. And correct me if I'm wrong here, Dr. Mike, but I almost feel like once you, it's a symptom of adulthood. I almost feel like once you hit a certain age and you've been around a certain amount of people and you've heard or experienced a certain amount of negative things, then you become so aware that this anxious thing or this anxiety begins to overtake you. Like when you're young, you're not thinking about your mortality, right? When you're young, you're not thinking about jumping off the cliff. And you just do it. You do it all. And then when you start to talk to a couple of friends, like, hey man, I wouldn't jump off that cliff if I were you.

You're like, wow, I jumped off it 10 times. I mean, people die. People die. Then all of a sudden I'm scared to jump off the cliff. You know, all these things get set inside of me. How does one cut off the world whether it's your parents your friends whoever the closest people to you so you won't be in infected i love this framing i love your framing here because that's exactly right there's this moment there's this phase in life where we're

free we're spontaneous imagination is. We're true explorers. And then you look up in these bright eyes of whatever age you're imagining right now, and you look up and your parents are like, oh, and it could be really early. Don't drop that on your foot, as opposed to, that looks really heavy. So the external world pretty early starts to shape an anxious response, a limiting response for many people. And then our friends, you know, like, and when there's like, man, I don't do that kind of stuff. That's dangerous. That's crazy. Or whatever it might be, it starts to exactly what you're saying. So there's this phase where we've got all of the greatness within us to be a true explorer of the zest and the wonders of life.

And then we have the external world that starts to impact it. And the reason that it's a problem is because we don't have the requisite internal skills to manage the external philosophies, the external ways of thinking about life. So when somebody imposes a way of life and yours is still raw clay and theirs is pretty hard, and they're like, no, this is how it works. The factor in between that is like, have you built the psychological skills? And a young kid, who's teaching these?

Nobody's teaching like, oh, that's your choice. I like how I feel. Like I want to be an explorer of life. I don't want to be somebody that, you know, is playing within the rules or playing to be safe. And so it's really unfortunate, but I wish that at, in my sixth, seventh, eighth grade years, and then a little bit deeper in high school, and then even deeper in college, that psychological skills were taught. And so I could examine the way that I'm thinking relative to how I want to think and how my parents want me to think and maybe how my friends want me to think.

If I would have had that skill early on, I feel like that would have been an accelerant in a lot of ways. Yeah. So, yeah. Do you have spontaneity in your life? Probably too much of it. You do? Yeah.

What does that mean? Because I love spontaneity and your life? Probably too much of it. You do? Yeah, probably too much of it. What does that mean? Because I love spontaneity, and I don't have enough of it, I guess. I think that, for me, my detriment is that I subscribe too much to being outside the box. Like, if everyone goes right, I'm definitely going left. Even if there's a cliff full with monsters at the bottom of it. Cause I'm like, I'm not doing what you guys do. And I think I do that too much. So is that spontaneity or contrarian?

Both. I'm a contrarian and I'll just do things. I'll just up and just do something. Just for the randomness of life. Cause I wanna experience it. You know? Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent spontaneous. Oh, that's good. just for the randomness of life because I want to experience it. Yeah, yeah, 100% spontaneous. That's definitely. Yeah, there's a lot of freedom in that.

Any downsides that you would? Oh yeah, 100%. Lack of planning, right? So things don't necessarily ever, ever go the way you want them to go. You're like, oh, I didn't have enough money for this or I didn't expect it to be a rainstorm. So yeah, a ton. There's always some price to pay. You're like, oh, I didn't have enough money for this or I didn't expect it to be a rainstorm. So yeah, a ton.

There's always some price to pay. Yeah, I hear that too. So DJ, I'm a 25-year-old grad student who has been struggling with imposter syndrome and self-doubt. What are some techniques I can use to build my confidence and believe in my abilities? Do you know what,

I know what imposter syndrome feels like. Do you know what it feels like? I have no idea what it feels like. None? You're sorry, I had to answer. I have none, I don't know. Yeah, it's a great question. And my first response is welcome to the club.

Especially for people that are, like there's a value for, and there's an ambition to get better. And there's knowing that you, you do need to go a little bit faster on your skis, let's say, then you're comfortable to find that next level, or you need to go into, you know, a bigger pond and swim in colder water, deeper, deeper depths. Like I love when people recognize that they have imposter syndrome because it's like, oh, I see you. I see that you have a drive and an ambition and you just really want to get better. And you're not sure if you have what it takes. You're not sure. I see you in that. And I go, oh my God, this is so refreshing because one, you're calling out and you're being honest. Are they going to find out, this is what imposter syndrome is, are they going to find out that I

don't really have it all buttoned up? That I don't have it, the skills that you might think I have. And it's unfortunate because first order of business is that you're over, me, I'll say us, whatever, are over indexing on the value of what another person thinks. So that's kind of the first problem with imposter syndrome is that you're giving that person or them imaginarily. So a lot of power. The second is you're abandoning your body of work. So when you start to question, like, do I, do I, do I, if you can't quickly have, well, I've done this, this, and this, and this, and I'm good at that, that, and that, and that, then you're abandoning your whole body of work. Why? Because of what they might

think of you. So when somebody is feeling that imposter thing, my hope is that they go, right, that's right. Cause I'm trying to get after it, you know, and I'm stepping into a new territory and I don't have all the answers for this room necessarily, but I'm going to give it my best go. So if you can get to that place, like recognize like, Ooh, I feel a little rattled and then take care of yourself by reminding yourself that this is what you want. You want to swim in deeper waters. You want to go a little faster than you once did.

This is cool. This is what you're about. And you figure shit out. If you can take care of yourself that way, I think it's great. And then the third thing is like they make a fundamental decision. And this is like the river that runs underneath the whole thing is, why do I care what they think of me?

Why am I doing that? Why am I still doing that? And if you can square up with that and say, no longer am I going to live my life based on what somebody might or might not think of me. I am going to be my very best. And that's sometimes messy. It's sometimes pretty magical. And, but no matter what, it's me working on becoming my very best in every environment that I can. And they're not going to

determine that state. I need to determine, for example, we have in our company, we have sports psychologists and Olympians and extraordinary talent that present to enterprise companies about how to work from the inside out to help their folks in their company be their very best by training their mind. It's awesome. And early days when they're early with our company, the Olympian or the sports psych would get off the stage and they'd say, I would say to them like, okay, how'd it go? And they go, well, you know, there was a nice lineup and there was a lot of good questions right after. And, you know, I was watching, there was a lot of people nodding, you know, so I think it was pretty good. I go, holy shit. Like, wait a minute, hold on,

hold on. How do you calibrate first and foremost, the way you experienced it? If they, if they had nothing to do with whether it was successful or not, how did it feel for you? Were you honest? Did you enjoy it? Did you get up on the edge? Did you have that spontaneity and excitement

about not knowing exactly what's coming next? Were you pacing it in a way that was fun to follow? Like, how did you do? Were you calm and confident? Fill in the blanks. And so that's the first kind of place to go to on imposter syndrome is, is to go first within yourself, love yourself up, back yourself, and then take another opportunity. Like, why am I giving them so much power? And you become your own tuning fork for success, as opposed to requiring somebody else to nod

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L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Well, that's such an interesting push and pull because you know, with all that being said, we live in a world that's set up for us to prove ourselves to people every single day. No, that's your philosophy. Yeah. That's your philosophy. And it's not right or wrong. Yeah.

But I don't relate to that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't think you're trying to prove yourself to me right now. And I'm not trying to prove you. No, no. I mean, like, like on a job interview or an audition or, you know, you just, you have to be in front of individuals and convince them that you're good enough for something. Like, I mean, of course I'm in agreeance with everything you're saying, like being within yourself and, and asking yourself, why am I trying to impress these people or trying to prove this?

But it's such a hard thing for us to do because the first thing you have to do is, oh, I got to, everything that I need is dependent upon them accepting me. I love that you said that because like, if you squared up with that and you said, I don't want to do it that way. And maybe you want to keep doing it that way. You want to have a chip on your shoulder and you're like, you know what? I'm going to go in there and knock their lights out. I'm going to go in there and they're going to be like, wow, that dude's amazing. Like if that works for you, we keep it rolling. But there is another way at some point,

maybe you want to explore, which is a different layer, which is, you know, I love the art of trying to understand the contours and the nuances of how to express the person, the character that I'm working from, like from the inside out. Right. And I'm going to go see if I can completely be tuned in that. And if they can't see it,

they can't see my vision of it. Like it's probably not gonna work anyway. Yeah. So then it's that, then, then you become your own calibrating kind of tuning fork as opposed to like, how'd I do? Yeah. So that being said, um, there's not a right and wrong. There's just, there's what's working for you now. Yeah. And there's a second more insidious part of this, which is like, if, if you show up and you've, you've been successful at the game and you've gotten them to like you. Yeah. So you So you put on a different mask or you played some tricks and they're like, oh, you're really nice or you're really funny or wow, you're really intense or whatever the thing is so that you think that they'll like you.

And they've given you affirmation. They've nodded. Well, now you've just shape shifted a little bit and maybe you're only two degrees away from center or maybe you're 45 degrees away. Maybe now you've pushed off dock, you know, like our ships have pushed off dock and they're just a little off true North. And so that becomes a problem because next time you see that person, now you got to, you're playing like the secondary game and it's like, you're not, it's so much easier just to be like you if you can set it from the

beginning yeah and so you end up being 10 15 years down the road and you literally now are heading straight into a crisis because you've lost your way yeah makes me think of something really funny i don't know can i say this i don't know if i can say 100 yeah makes me think about and austin can understand we joke about this. I don't know if I can say it. A hundred percent, yeah. Makes me think about, and Austin can understand, because we joke about this all the time. You know, in the black community, we have, you know, this thing called job interview voice, you know, and there's been numerous sketches about this with, you know,

black people. If I'm talking to my boy, what's up, man? Shit, man, fuck all that. You're tripping, yeah, right, fuck it, got me fucked up. And then when your white boss walks in, yeah, absolutely Harold. So I was thinking with the documents, maybe we should, you know,

and your friends call you out, like, come on, man. You don't talk like that. You're like, man, white people around, I got it with my bosses. I got to put on, hey Gina, how's everything going? How's the family? Yeah, good, good, okay. But you're in the bathroom, man.

Hey man, shit. This man, quit fucking calling me, man. Is that a full roof of impossibility? I'm just kidding. Yeah, that's that two selves thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I bet everybody can recognize it, but like- Code switching, code switching.

Yeah, code switching. Yeah, code switching, you know, which we've mastered very well, you know? Jesus. My question to all that is why are some people just innately born with this ability to believe that they can overcome any situation at any time and they will be this thing. Yet you have others that, you know, are lacking that confidence or suffering from imposter syndrome and so forth and so on.

And I'll add to it, there's a story of one of the tennis greats who was in the early rounds of Wimbledon and yelling at the ref, pissed off, unranked, like barely ranked, I should say, and created a narrative. Who is this person? Who does he think he is? Gets to the finals, wins the whole thing. The interviewer says, you know, you created quite a disturbance here, you know? And he says, yeah, I was frustrated because like you guys just didn't know how great I was.

So confidence is, we're not born with confidence. Confidence is a skill. It's a trainable skill. And early life does shape an abundance of confidence or abundance of self-doubt or an abundance of self-criticalness. And so if your parents did some stuff early on that really helps you believe that you are special, now that can, there's a double-edged sword here because that too much of a specialness can create mental

illness as well. I think that confidence is one of the great cornerstones for all humans is to know how to back yourself. And if you think that other people's opinions are really big, it leaves the opportunity for you to feel small. So you can down-regulate how important their opinion is of you. You can up-regulate your vision of what you see as possible. You can upregulate your purpose, great clarity, what your purpose is. And then you can ridiculously create such a challenging environment that you're testing yourself at your limit every day, that you're really building some serious skills. And then to round the whole thing out, you're working on how you speak to yourself, your self-talk.

That little formula there, if you're a parent listening and you can help your child understand that, awesome. So it's authentic. They're earning it and it's clear and they're backing themselves. That's it. And if you're an adult working through this right now, that's the formula. So I'm less interested in what it looks like and I'm more interested in the formula. So I'm less interested in like, in like what it looks like. And I'm more interested in the formula or the process to become your very best and you have to earn it. Yeah. And then it's, it's like, no, no, no. It's clear. Like I can, I I'm, I'm pretty sure I think I can do

that thing. Or it's like, are you kidding me? I got that. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the doubt version, which is like, I don't know, man don't know man yeah yeah i can do that but you don't believe it and it's it's like a chocolate easter egg bunny you poke it and it just kind of it's hollow and it falls apart quickly gotcha yeah so i hope that answers yeah it does it does um one of the things so okay so correct me if i'm wrong here but what uh what i've realized and and noticed is the overlying theme of all of this is, you know, this battle with the higher and lower self and wanting validation as opposed to validating yourself. Right. I know that's a fine line because we still do need people. Right. You said that we need your greatness has been linked to your partner and and the connection and the whole team right so how do you find that that that happy medium of not desiring and needing this validation

right but at the same time you know validating yourself and and yeah i i think that is you eloquently did pull on the theme here that's coming up in this conversation and there's not an easy answer. I wish there wasn't the easy button here. It's practice. Before I explain the practice or just kind of pull on that thread a little bit, the first order of business is to feel the pain.

So pain is why we change. And if we're constantly shape-shifting and we're constantly like drinking or drugging or doing whatever to numb the pain that we feel that pain of that disconnection from our deeper self, then we start to say, okay, there's a change that I need to make, or I just need to figure out how to numb the pain, or I'm just going to accept that this is my way. And so it's really the first order of business is to sit with the pain. And that's so uncomfortable. That is what creates the change. So pain is why we change. Uncomfortableness is how we grow. And when you, when you can square up with that pain, you'll figure out like, okay, man, I'm getting whipped around by what they might think. And who am I? It's one of the reasons it's one of the most foundational questions in meditation

like who am i and i mean really answer that question and we had marshawn lynch you know talking about how he did that you know one of the greats in the nfl running back um and he's he's a handful in every part of his life and he says my i just stripped down naked in front of my in a mirror in front of you know in my home and home. And I just like, I looked at myself like, who am I really? And had an honest conversation with himself. So why would you do that? Because you're feeling some sort of pain and you really want to get to another level of honesty with yourself. So we didn't talk about this yet. Maybe we'll do this for next time is, um, one of the characteristics of people that are extraordinary in their life is they're incredibly honest.

And so I know we're saying, are they narcissistic or whatever? There's an honesty. And when you, I'm talking about the true greats that stand up over the ages, there's an honesty and a purity in how they approach themselves and their community and their purpose. And they've got that thing lined up really well. They're not bigger than their purpose. They're not bigger than their community. They understand that there's an ecosystem and a symbiotic relationship between those three, purpose, community, and the self having high agency, high power, that that integration

is kind of a massive unlock for folks. So that's how I see it when, as we're talking about it. I see. It makes a lot of sense. Marsha Lynch was arguably one of the most straight up honest people in sports history. Still is. He's like what he's, it's awesome to see what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Listen, so thank you so much for coming in, challenging, in challenging you know ideas sparring back and forth the honesty um that we had is refreshing and um man i want to do this more with you so thank you again thank you for having me i appreciate it thank you thank you all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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