Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Power of Trust and Maximizing Potential | Anne Morriss and Frances Frei

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Anne Morriss and Frances Frei.Anne has spent the last twenty years building and leading mission-driven enterprises, serving most recently as CEO and Co-Founder of GenePeeks, a computational genomics company developing breakthrough ways to identify genetic risk. She has worked with entrepreneurs, companies and governments throughout the United States and Latin America on strategy, leadership and organizational change. Frances is a Professor of Technology and Operations Management at Harvard Business School. Her research investigates how leaders create the conditions for organizations and individuals to thrive by designing for excellence in strategy, operations, and culture.Frances regularly advises senior executives embarking on large-scale change initiatives and organizational transformation, including embracing diversity and inclusion as a lever for improved performance.   She is considered a culture consultant - helped makeover Riot Games, Uber and WeWork when trust within those companies at a low.So Anne and Frances both have unique perspectives and insight - that’s why I wanted to have them on together.They share how to get the most out of individuals within an organization… to maximize potential and help each person flourish._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And by trade in training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. And I am flat out fortunate enough to work with some of the top performers across the planet. And I love my job. I love what I get to do. And I flat out love this podcast as well. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from the extraordinaries, some of the most dynamic thinkers and doers across the planet. And what we want to do is we want to pull back the curtain to explore how they've committed their life efforts towards both mastery of craft and of their inner life, mastery of their mind. And our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more on how you can train your mind in the same way that we train world-class athletes, this is just a quick little reminder here that I built an

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background on Anne. She spent the last 20 years building and leading mission-driven enterprises, serving most recently as a CEO and co-founder of GenePeaks, a computational genomics company that is developing breakthrough ways to identify genetic risk. And then she also worked with entrepreneurs, companies, and governments throughout the United States and Latin America on strategy, leadership, and organizational change. So Frances is a professor of technology and operations management at Harvard Business School. And then her research investigates how leaders create the conditions for organizations and individuals to thrive by designing for excellence and strategy,

operations and culture. And when these two women come together, it is so dynamic. And I cannot wait for you to roll up your sleeves and get into the, I want to say essence, but it's too light of a word actually, to get into the spirit of this conversation. And so Frances regularly advises senior executives who are embarking on large scale change initiatives and organizational transformation. So she's at that nexus and including embracing the very important conversation about diversity, inclusion, and equity as a lever for improved performance. She is a cultural consultant helping make over companies like Riot Games and Uber and WeWork when trust within those companies was at a low. So Anne and Francis, they both have this really rich

and unique perspective and insight. And that's why I wanted to have them on together. And they share how to get the most out of individuals within an organization, but not from an extraction standpoint, from a lifting and a pulling and creating the conditions to help people do their very best work. And if that sounds familiar to you, obviously, you know, if you've been around this conversation, this podcast for a long time, you know that that is tier zero, you know, for all the things that I'm so interested in. And we're really working and they sing the same note to maximize potential, to help people flourish. This is going to be so good. Again, I know I've said it three times. I'm excited for

you to listen to this. The nuggets are rich. The insights are real. The applied practices are on point and they come from inside the amphitheater they understand both from science and application what they're saying and how to apply it so i love this conversation and with that let's jump right into this week's conversation with ann and francis how are you i'm doing great We'll start with that. Let's start with that's Francis speaking. Okay. This is Anne. This is Francis.

And so this is one of the only few times that we've had more than two voices on the podcast. I am so excited to do this with you guys. Francis, let's start with you. Tell me, tell us just a little bit about who you are, how you arrived here, and then Anne will do the same for you. And this will be one way to help calibrate our voices, but also to get to know your background just a little bit. And this will be the hardest question you ask me the entire time, just for calibrating, and for Anne, it's a delight this question um we are married for your guests to know we are married so if francis misses anything in describing

her inner life i'll just fill in the blanks and we have two wonderful sons um and two dogs uh to complete the lifestyle. The on-brand lifestyle. Yes. We don't have a Subaru, but we could. There's no like golden retriever. That's not part of the mix either. One of our dogs is half golden retriever.

You've got it wired. Good job. Yeah. I'm wearing clogs just to give you. And I have one pajama pants. It's a very glamorous lifestyle. I love it. Where'd you grow up, Frances?

I grew up in a small town called Shoreham, New York, which is on the eastern end of Long Island. Okay, so you the fancy east coast. Not enough to be fancy, but enough to be far enough away from New York City that I didn't grow up in New York City, even though I grew up near it. Did your family come from humble means? Meaning that, I guess it's a nice way of saying, you couldn't get all the stuff you wanted, but at the same time, you were able to get the stuff that maybe if you saved up for it, but you didn't go without food. You didn't go without rent being made or mortgage being made. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So it wasn't desperate means it was more humble. A standard deviation below humble. Standard. Okay. Perfect. All right. And where'd you grow up cincinnati ohio okay and

similar upbringing or different um i think different yes i think different different cultural background and influences uh grew up with a single mom. We grew up comfortable in the basics for sure. Family that believed heavily in elite education. So that was the whole, the entire objective of childhood was to prepare for that elite education. And I got the memo. And as long as you played along, you had total freedom to do whatever else you wanted and you did it yeah okay so study first play later kind of an ethos in the system yeah the sequencing didn't matter but as long as you yes as long as I got good grades I had I was

there was freedom to do whatever I wanted to do that helps explain how like the thing you cherish above all else right now is freedom yes i'm not super proud of that i do i do have a bit of a freedom fetish meaning meaning i work within the structure of a loving marriage so it's it's that it's contained thoughtfully um but i do i do definitely value agency the ability to um define my life on my terms to pursue the things i want to pursue i get very restless inside big organizations it was never a good fit uh i'm not great at reporting to other people uh anyone which is glory i mean all of this is glorious i mean it fits with our it fits with the life we live now i have reported to a board before there were highlights and lowlights i have had many bosses uh at this point in our lives one thing i value value quite a bit is we get to go and do the work, you and I together get to go and do the work we want to do and write about it and talk about it. And that is something I value incredibly highly. Let's pause there and talk about your working definition of agency.

And that's a psychological term that means a lot to me. And I'd love to just hear how you're thinking about it from a, whether it's like a learned, is it learned or is it more pedestrian in the way you think about it? I think about it. The conversation is already going by grasp. I'm going to try to answer you with a straight face without reacting to my wife. I think about it in probably blunt terms in the sense of I control everything I do at any minute of the day on my own terms, everything I do is a choice.

Um, I mean, it's an interesting question around adulthood and obligation and responsibility and what do all those things mean? And those are big and heavy words. And, um, I feel very lucky that I'm in a marriage that feels like I'm opting into it every day because I want to be there. Because I love my wife. I love who I am in the context of her. And I love who we are together and the life we get to build. We have two wonderful sons together. And it is every day I get to opt into being their mom and creating a context where they get to thrive and learning who they are and every day that's I get more information about that so those things may not always feel like choices but it is a way that I measure meaning in my life and, you know, a successful life and that they feel like choices. Okay. So agency for you is the responsibility and

the ability maybe to choose every facet of your life, Right. And then meaning is to make choices that matter, that ladder up probably to your purpose. And have you figured out your purpose or is that feel like it's too big of a rock to get in the container? Because it's a big one. I feel fortunate that I'm always sensitive when I ask this question because I like I've done a lot of work on what mine is. It doesn't mean it's going to forever be that. But I I'm respectful when I ask it because I think most people haven't done the work and but they when they talk about they have a sense of it and so I just want to create space for you when you answer that yeah I you know I feel uh I I feel like it is a guiding principle in my life. I think the words I attach to it, and I am a lover of words. So it is fun to play with. She's written two incredible books that she, my name is also on.

She wrote them. You got a little glow. They were co-produced. Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on real quick. Cause that's good. We're going to stay on purpose, but you guys wrote books together, married. Yeah. They're intellectual books. You know, they're about, when I say intellectual meaning complicated ideas, culture is a complicated idea. It's there's an artifact of culture,

but it's hard to articulate how to get to those meaningful artifacts. The way I think about culture, and I can't wait to get into this with you guys, is that culture is the artifact of relationships. So the binding nature of culture is the way that we treat each other, what's tolerated, what's accepted, what is coached, what's encouraged. But it first begins with the relationship you have with yourself. And so I can't wait to get to that point with you, but I digress into the point. How did you guys manage writing two books that are complicated in nature, that have some good science and some science that is not, let's call it... Not good? Yeah. I'm just helping you out. I know you said you're good with words, you know, but there's,

let's just be safe and safe. Let's say not good for now. And so like, how did you wrestle with ideas? How did you, when one of you says, and there's not something you can hang your hat on to say, well, no, look at this research. It's absolutely is this. How did you do that? I mean, I think the implicit standard is we both have to be excited about it. Yeah. And we are very different people in the world that I think are incredible compliments. Yeah.

So we do all of our work together now. All of it. I started out in the, in the early stage company building space. Frances was an academic in many ways. Those are very, very different lanes that shall never intersect because of the culture, you know, the norms and assumptions around how people behave are so different in those two spaces. But she was a very practical academic and I was kind of an esoteric concept loving entrepreneur. And so we, we, we met in the middle. It worked very well. I mean, and works very well and works very well. Our marriage is at its best when we have hard projects, whether it's with clients, writing books, we're writing a third book together.

I gave a TED talk, but it was our, we worked on it. I gave our TED talk. I just happened to be the one that was on stage. And we have a really great working rhythm, I think. So how do you frame, Frances, hard problems? So there is a hard problem. There's a handful of them in science, right? But the hard problems that you guys are trying to express in your unique way and add to the body of knowledge in your collective fields or your perspective fields, how do you frame up how you engage in hard problems? That framing, I think, is materially important because some people are energized and scared, and then they look for relief. And the product in between, because of the relief focus, is wanting. So if you could take that question. For clients. So say we have a client problem. Let's start there.

I'm going to translate. start there okay i'm gonna and gonna translate okay what is the problem that is worthy of your time and attention uh yeah so thank you um so today i'm gonna be the michael whisperer translator in this conversation i love it yeah good so today the one that excites us the most is that inclusion, for example, is an urgent and achievable goal. So all of these organizations that aren't thriving, the individuals in the organizations aren't all thriving, there might be demographic tendencies associated with who's thriving. is totally knowable how to close those gaps. Like we have successfully helped organizations close those gaps and we love doing that. It's like the human potential when some people get to thrive and others don't and helping the individuals and the organizations. Now that often manifests as there's a headline

and there's a problem in an organization and it might have blown up and looks like a fire. The reason we walk very enthusiastically towards those situations is because that means that they will have a willingness to change. And that's the thing we look for. So we look for good people with a willingness to get a lot better. And then we do it in ways that we find noble. Okay. And then let's anchor on how you're, it seems simple, but I don't think it necessarily is. How are you defining inclusion from a workplace standpoint? Yeah. So a lot of people, if you think about DNI is a phrase that gets used for diversity and inclusion. And so you have people that are different from one another and then whether or not they are included. So we think about inclusion in a very specific way. I'm an operations professor, so everything has a schematic. So inclusion is a

four-step progressive process. The first one is, despite any difference that you and I bring to the table, we feel physically and emotionally safe. Despite any difference we bring to the table, we feel welcome. Because of our unique contributions, we feel celebrated, and we're celebrated in enough nooks and crannies in the organization that we feel of the organization and cherished. So the inclusion dial goes safe, welcome, celebrated, cherished. And here's the beautiful thing is that when I am feeling cherished in any aspect of, say, my work at the Harvard Business School, my obligation is to look out for those that are not yet feeling cherished in any aspect of, say, my work at the Harvard Business School, my obligation is to look out for those that are not yet feeling safe and welcome and be super

proactive. But if there's a moment when I'm not feeling safe or welcome, say, because I'm queer or something like that, it's not my obligation to look out for inclusion. So a lot of people say diversity, then inclusion, we would say just the opposite. We've seen so many organizations that were diverse, but not inclusive, and they just got on a diversity treadmill. But we've seen almost no organizations that were inclusive and didn't attract incredible diversity. So what we would define as inclusion first, and diversity will magnificently and majestically follow. than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not

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Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Oh, cool. And then I can see operationally, you would have a stack under each one of your four verticals, whether it's a theoretical approach to go make those verticals happen. And it's certainly a very applied, practical way to make them. Okay, so let me do a devil's advocate for just a moment here. And I'm not even sure where that phrase came from, but I don't want to be an advocate of the devil. And I don't want to skin an advocate of the devil and i don't want to

skin a cat you know that's an awful phrase too there's a point of view we'd love it yeah offer an alternative point of view for an alternative point of view it doesn't even have to be yours no one needs to get hurt yeah no one so i don't i i i don't think it's an alternative point of view it's a it's a condition inside of sport and I see it inside of business, but there's an, an appreciation for it in sport, but it's not celebrated in the way in business that makes it real. So let me, let me frame it up objectively in sport. If you don't have the goods, you don't get on the field. And then if you don't have the goods, you're not on the team very long. So in that respect, there's a meritocracy, right? And so if you, if you can't hang with the standards that are being established to be able to quote unquote win, then it's not

safe. So, so I'm just going to start with safety for a moment. So that's in sport and it's well accepted. That doesn't mean that, well, the organizations that I'm part of is that we take psychological safety seriously and we create relationships and pockets and forms for people to say the things that are important to say so they can bring their whole selves in the most progressive way we can. And I'm not saying this is a safe environment though, because if you can't perform at the standard of excellence on a consistent basis, it is very clear that you cannot stay. So I am averse to this idea of we're family. I'm completely averse to that. Now in business, it's not talked about like that. And so I feel like we're starting to find this narrative that, well, I'm concerned

that, let me just say it that way. I get concerned that psychological safety and I say, okay, for what aim? And I don't mean it like a jerk, but I just say for like, honestly, for what aim? And so it is so that people can bring their whole selves and talk about things that are important and meaningful. Can I interrupt? Yeah, go. Yeah. So psychological safety, which was created by our colleague, Amy Edmonton and our dear

friend and neighbor, it doesn't have in it, your high standards come with psychological safety. So psychological safety is the presence of safety and excellence. So there's, you would ask Amy or read her book, The Fearless Organization, there, you had implicit that you could have like a lessening of excellence. Inclusion is the fastest way to achieve excellence we can accelerate performance and psychological safety if it's not achieving excellence you don't have um the psychological safety so it's not like this feel good it's because for example here's a part of psychological safety you have an obligation to speak up you have an obligation even you know You have an obligation, even, you know, you have an obligation to say the best things. You only want, like, you'll have much greater excellence. So I know there's this myth

that, oh, meritocracy in this environment will give us excellence and the soft stuff won't. We will thump anyone who calls himself a meritocracy. We will thump them in performance with our woo-woo stuff that is actually much more performance oriented because many meritocracies, when you really look at it, as you know in sport, and I played college basketball a very long time ago before you had to be good and have worked with a bunch of the NBA teams. It's not just about performance. So for example, basketball, there's rebounds and

assists, but the best statistic in basketball is when I'm on the court, how much better are my teammates? And when I'm off the court, I'm not, but we get paid for rebounds and assists. So already it's not a meritocracy in that it's, it's like picking the particular measures, but anyway, I could go on for a long time. This is really, this is really important. And that stat, the plus minus stat, you know, is really important. Is this the team more productive when you're on the court is the stat that you're talking about, but contracts are inflated.

When you have a triple, triple every game, you know, or whatever. Darryl Morey introduced us to the greatest way of getting, you know, Shane Battier and others that are really great at the plus minus, and you don't have to pay him very much on the rebounds and points and assists. Okay. So that so that actually, I want to stay on this for a moment because I'm not suggesting that the soft stuff, which you and I both do, doesn't have merit and value.

What I'm suggesting is that it's very clear in pro sport that if you're not good enough, you can't stay. So from that level, the environment is not necessarily safe because if you don't have it, you can't stay. And that directness is not there in business. And some organizations, they- And maybe in not-for-profit, it's not there. Like when you have tenure for life, but help with the- Yeah. So I think we're getting stuck on but help with the. Yeah. So, so I think it's, I think we're getting

stuck on the definition of safety. Right. So I think we would argue that the definition of safe and psychological safety is a subset of the safety we're talking about for inclusion, but it's close enough. Right. So it's it, and I love the research that Google did on high performing teams, which they were shocked to discover that the variable that fell out that really made the difference was psychological safety. So it is highly correlated with excellence and performance. And it is actually quite different from, and we would argue the opposite of, the idea of low standards where it's okay not to perform. So what you're saying is it's essential for people to know that it's not okay to not perform.

That's right. And we would agree completely. In fact, one of the frameworks we use that we call the love matrix, which is actually where human beings are most likely to thrive and most likely to improve at the fastest rate is in a context of high standards and deep devotion. In fact, the way what we've observed in the business space that people assume that it's essentially one or the other, right? And if I'm going to raise the standards, then I have to dial back my revelation of commitment to this other human being. And if I'm going to reveal my commitment to this human being, then I've got to lower the standards. And where people perform best and, meaning that I am psychologically and emotionally safe when I show up into the workplace, is one part of that devotion piece.

And there's no excellence in its absence. That's what Google found out. In fact, it is, again, highly correlated performance, excellence, and psychological safety. Yeah. I'm nodding my head to all of it as well. And I think if we could just stay here one more moment, I think it's materially important to do so, is that I want to understand how you guys are thinking about safety in relationship to this dilemma. If I don't perform tonight, I'm probably not going to have a second contract. I might not make the team.

That doesn't have anything to do with safety. Doesn't have anything to do with safety. Okay, so I disagree with that. I think I agree with the sentiment. I disagree in that it is not safe for me to have the freedom to explore, to muse, to try my very best, when in reality, what I need to do is perform to the standard that others have set as the benchmark to continue

with the team. But that musing stuff, I don't know who is paying you for that musing, but it isn't any organization I know. It doesn't feel safe. That maybe that's the, so where I'm going here is anxiety is the, is on the other spectrum of safety. Comfort. That's, that's different. That's it. That would be the spectrum of comfortable to uncomfortable. And I agree with you that there are particularly there are moments there there are moments um where discomfort is is part of setting high standards coming up for promotion highly psychologically okay but highly

uncomfortable highly uncomfortable yeah okay that's a good that's good okay i get so you're saying let's net it out you're saying excellence, to have true, high-performing, consistent excellence, psychological safety is one of the bedrocks of that. Yes. Yeah. And that research has fared it out pretty well. And so this is one of the reasons that at the Seattle Seahawks, we put a tall flagpole down about we are a relationship-based organization. Yes. And so to do that, we need to know each other.

And we need to know, really, like, where do you come from? What is your narrative? What's your story? Where are your choke points? Like, where do you get in trouble? Where do you thrive? Like, we really need to know you. And so do you have any way that you bounce off

that idea of a relationship-based organization yes and we'll love it and i will be repelled by it i think but go ahead no i mean it totally resonates i mean i think that it is it is the currency of human progress and we would argue trust is the foundation for that relationship. So could not agree more with that worldview. But I don't have to tell you my entire backstory in order for us to develop that relationship to the part where I coil back is just that I don't want to have to tell you all these things about me. And I don't think I need to in order for us to have a really great working relationship and in order for us to build and rebuild trust. Now, we might choose to share those you, when I joined the Harvard Business School, I didn't talk a lot. I'm the only queer tenured faculty member there, only one who ever has been. I didn't go into depth about my relationships with everyone right away, certainly in the same way other people did. And I don't think it was necessary. So that's the only reason when I said

I would be. Yeah. So there's like, there's levels to it, if you will. And I think our job is let's call it coaches or support in an organization is to create the space and the forum so that that stuff can happen. But also the mechanisms where it's like, hey, listen, you want to pass? Cool. And I'm going to show you, I'm going to pass on some of this stuff, too. But if everybody passes, that's kind of interesting. Like, I'm not sure how it totally works, but you know, we'll deal with that if it happens. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And I think the outcome, the outcome that we care about and we've seen make a difference

is would be the concept of authenticity where people can show up often, whether or not for them, that means like, here's my life story. I can bring that whole self. There's not pieces of my self that I'm not bringing into the office for, for reasons of safety. I'm showing up, you're getting all of me. You're getting the best of me. You're getting my real you, you're getting my ideas. And that's my ideas uh and that's i mean that's where we see like this woman i and i am speaking of francis i think is the most competitive human certainly that i know i'm not going to start i haven't met michael jordan but i haven't met anyone more competitive than me right so what are the quite the reason we're in this space is because it's this intersection of of a you and a moral mandate, a human mandate, that I think really lights us up, both of us.

Okay, so that's the three of us, actually. Okay, so that brings us all together. The beautiful thing about the inclusion conversation is both of those at this moment in world history are completely aligned. It is a huge opportunity for an uptick in performance in organizations because in most organizations, you're only getting somewhere between 20 and 50% of the human beings who show up to help you solve problems. Yeah, the engagement number across enterprises, like 38% or something outrageous. It's so low. We can stump you if we go higher on it. Right. And the path to getting higher is the path through safe, welcome, celebrated, and cherished. Because we're not just talking about making whoever feels culturally marginalized feel safe, welcome, celebrated, and cherished.

We're going for everyone. The unit of analysis we care most about is the individual. Yeah. So let's go there because you mentioned trust and I want to talk to you about trust. And then, so we've got agency, we've got some purpose in here, we've got relationships, we've got trust. So we're hitting on some big rocks and then underneath, and of course, safety we've got trust. So we're hitting on some big rocks and then underneath, and of course, safety, uh, inclusion as well. So we're, we've got the big rocks in the container here. And then if we hit trust for just a moment, because for me, I don't think this is a hard conversation for most people. I think most people go, yeah, that's good. That's good. And then where it gets tricky is when they're like well i

gotta win or i gotta meet deadlines or i've got it where do i have the time i don't we don't have the time and if we take time here it's a it's a false narrative if i don't have time here then i don't have the time to do it here so we'll get to it later later never happens so we end up kind of this snake eating its own tail, you know, grinding mentality, the hustle versus the help mentality. It's so let's go trust for a minute. Yeah. How do you guys think about trust? Because like Francis, like you coil a little bit on like, how much do I need to say and share? I coil a little bit around the concept of trust. So I can't wait to have this conversation with you guys. Great. So we think about how to build and rebuild trust. And a lot of people spend a lot of time thinking about trust as like a Faberge egg and that you had to protect it. And if it broke,

it's gone forever. It couldn't be further from the truth. But that was the case when we thought trust was a monolithic concept. Here's what we have found. Trust is actually three components so we refer to it as the trust triangle, because of the three. You, I'm likely to earn your trust, if you believe it's the real me with rigorous logic, and that I'm centered on you. So, trust consists of authenticity, logic, and empathy. All three simultaneously. When you have all three of those cooking, you will earn our trust. When you aren't earning our trust, you can always diagnose it back to authenticity or logic or empathy. And the prescriptions for overcoming it and rebuilding it are different. So we really need the careful diagnosis.

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All right. Awesome. This makes it digestible to me. And I'll tell you where I've gone as a, I think you guys might appreciate this, but I don't know. You don't have to. Let me play it back real quick. Authenticity, logic, and empathy. So I will develop trust. I will deepen my trust of you if my perception is you're being authentic in the way you're communicating, the way that you're behaving. If you are, there's some logic behind how you're framing up your ideas and your actions. And then what is the empathy piece? I, if I can have empathy for you or you have empathy for my experience. I believe that you are not just in it for yourself, but you're also in it. You're also in it for me. In fact, you have. So wait, wait, that goes from, from me. If I'm trying to build trust with you, I have empathy that it's not, you're just not in it for you.

Yes. Okay, good. So we call that above the line and below the line coaching. So above the line coaching, and think about sport coaching, not life coaching. Above the line coaching, I've done this experiment thousands of times. And you just ask people to draw a line on a piece of paper and say, okay, list all the coaches that fit above the line in your life that helped you feel like you matter, that they've really made an impact, positive impact in your life. And it's always that characteristic when we debrief at the end, whoever makes the above the line list, it's like, I just felt like they invested in me for me.

Yeah. Like that was part of their life purpose. And it wasn't about the quote unquote coach showing up and getting glory. And so is that what we're talking about when you say empathy? Yeah. Yeah. Love it. You're above the line and below the line. Yeah. Love it. That this, this other person is in it for me too. It doesn't have to be exclusively, but in it for me too. Yeah. Because you guys for each other are above the line. A hundred percent for each other. Right. right yeah so you don't have to worry about that because when i hear empathy i hear i'm as a psychologist i hear it differently i hear that i can experience in my unique way what you're experiencing and then i can play it back to you

in a way that i'm able to convey that I feel and understand your experience. So not a high enough bar. It's too soulless, Michael. It's too technical. And it's not, and you can, you can do that. And I still won't trust you. Like I don't think it's high enough bar. So the high, so what's the higher bar? The higher bar is because first of all, you, we're lesbians. You're not going to understand what it's like. No, but I i gotta tell you a

good story i'm gonna tell you a good story okay yeah yeah i'm waiting for this story how can he possibly relate and i'm not saying you wouldn't be welcome michael you're like halfway there oh my god i'll never let that one down that is perfect in spirit so you you're that's the greatest compliment we get. Okay, good. All right, good. So here's, it was graduate school. It was one of our last classes. I'm about to get my PhD and it was kind of a finishing, if you will. And there was, I think there was like nine classmates and then the, I mean, amazing professor who was an expert, clearly an expert at what he does.

And so we had this moment where we go into the middle of the room in front of our peers, in front of him. One person would take the chair as the client. One person would take the chair as the therapist. And we're kind of, this is the finishing, you know, and everyone's watching. And so I'm the last person to go because I'm terrified. I was panicked. and so he calls me out, and he's like, Mike, get up here. Finally, Mike, it's your turn. It's like day three,

and you spend, you know, half a day doing this work and getting coached and observed, and so my shoulders are up in my ears. I'm sweating, and I'm terrified because the person that's coming up, I've got all these stories in my head. How am I going to relate? What if, what if, what if, what if? And sure enough, she starts out at the gate and she's shaking. She's just about to cry, but she's shaking. She's trembling. And I'm like, I am out of my depths here.

And she says, I was raped when I was 12. I didn't know it. To your point, I was like, I have no idea where to go with this. And so I panicked, she's panicked. It's a spiral thing. Goodness. He comes over, you know, kind of takes care of my ineptness. And he says, so this is now my relations relationship to you. Like you cannot understand what it's like to be a lesbian. True. Partly, but I know what it's like to feel a B, C, and D. I've had those types of commonality experiences in my life.

Now I'm going to double down on empathy. So I didn't know what it's like to be raped, but I did know what it's like to feel completely out of control. I do know what it's like to feel as though nothing I did really mattered because I lost power. I do know what it feels like, fill in the blanks. No, but this is all necessary, but not sufficient is simply our point. So that's sufficient, necessary, but not sufficient to what we're trying to do.

For the empathy part of trust. So that's like, great, necessary. You have shared experiences, but you could still be unempathetic having had those distinct things that you have to center on us. Yes. In it for us. So that comes on top of it. That's why we say that the, like, I can get where you're coming from. It's like necessary, but I want you to now center on where we are and without having, I think we're saying, I think we're saying the same thing there. So if I say, oh my, so this is empathy for me. You say something and then I go, wow. Okay. So hold on a minute. Let me make sure I understand or I'm playing back what it must feel it's a great example. And it's a it's a great example of the experience of leadership that many people have, when you're shaking, and you're terrified, and you're going up to sit in that chair. That is all about you. You know,

I might screw this up people, I have a lot of stupid, stupid, all of that. I want this guy's approval. He might not give it to me. All of that is a hundred percent about you. And what that human in front of you needs in that moment is for you to leave all that bullshit behind and be 100% present to her needs. That is exactly right. Right. Yeah. For you to Marshall. But again, it's not just being able to sympathize or empathize. It's being able for you to reveal empathy and for you to marshal those experiences in a way that you are 100% present and there to meet her where she is and give her what

she needs. So I'll give you an example. A thousand percent. And we often find that it's helpful to learn about trust when you think about times when you a thousand percent. So, and we often find that this is, it's helpful to learn about trust when you think about times when you have broken trust. So the exercise we ask people to do is think of a recent time when you didn't earn as much trust as you were intending and you're skeptics. What is it that they doubted about you? Did they doubt your authenticity, your logic, or your empathy? It's going to always be one of those three. And whichever one it is,

we call it your trust wobble. So I, as I've already revealed, have an empathy wobble. So that's where I won't understand you. It's the real me with rigorous logic. But if ever I don't earn someone's trust, it's because I was hitting something with my tail it was about me now even if i had empathy in my heart they didn't receive the empathy and that's because you're leading with logic and authenticity right with those whereas and i'm an authenticity wobbler so i would say empathy is is an anchor, but it comes with its own set of risks, liabilities, because I'll know, Michael, what you want to hear. And I will try to match your whatever, and it may or may not be an authentic representation of me. And again,

this is all in the context of trust. So the cost will be that I will not build as much trust as possible. And then we can't build as healthy a relationship on top of that. So that's why you need the three simultaneously. It's like one times the other times the other, and it's not like an overabundance of one makes up for a shortfall. I was going to say a fun exercise is to like, think about public leaders and the ones that you trust or you don't trust if you don't trust I bet you can say why you don't trust them it was because you doubted their authenticity their logic or their empathy so if I went through a series of world leaders you would just be able to say the reasons that they are it turns out that's true for all of us for all of the

situations where trust breaks down and what's cool is that if it's an authenticity wobble, we have a set of prescriptions for that. An empathy wobble, a totally different set of prescriptions. And logic, an entirely different set. And imagine if I took the authenticity prescriptions to apply to my empathy wobble. It wouldn't help at all. I'm already authentic. Don't tell me it would be more of me. It's not going to help my empathy.

You know, I, okay. I love that where I go with the trust bit is as a psychologist, there's a, you know, there's this idea that trust is baked. It's not totally accurate, but, but some of this holds up in a way that in the applied nature, it shows up for us. So trust is baked by the ages of zero to two. Go back to Eric Erickson, kind of some of the social developmental psychology stuff, which is pre-verbal.

So trust is established at a young age before we can even put language to it. And so if I come from a very dangerous environment, an untrusting environment where my needs weren't met between the ages of zero and two, and I trust you right out the gates and you haven't demonstrated any behaviors, I should probably go do some more inner work here because that would be very dangerous. And so I'm not even down the lane at all about helping people trust each other. What we do is we say, okay, listen, that's complicated to us. And maybe because I didn't have your trifecta here. And then they say, I said, well, trust matters. I said, damn right it does. So let's work on trusting yourself. Because if you can trust yourself, you can drop your shoulders and

go into any environment and say, I'm going to figure that out too. Might not be easy and pleasant. It might be really, really hard. And I don't want to deal with that kind of stuff, but you know what? I trust me to figure it out. And then I can start getting into trusting others. So how do you, how would you guys? We, we, you, we believe in it entirely in that authenticity, logic, and empathy is how I earn trust with someone else. It's also how I earn trust with myself. So for example, you might hear the phrase imposter syndrome. Oh, yeah.

We talk about it all the time. Okay. It's an authenticity wobble with yourself. There you go. Yeah. And you know what? I think you guys might appreciate this. People that have done extraordinary things and they have a track record and a body of work of some consistency there. I'll be ridiculous with the number right now, like 85 plus percent have said, at least on the Finding Mastery podcast that, oh yeah, I know imposter syndrome. I think people that do extraordinary things, part of it is because they get over their skis and they're like,

is anyone going to find out I don't know what I'm doing? And it's almost part of the recipe. Like you need a little bit of imposter syndrome, but don't have too much because that'll keep you sour, if you will. I don't know where that came from. I think that's why we, just based on our experience, resist this idea that it is this static thing.

Or it was born early. We find that it is this very much living, dynamic concept organism that exists between any two people, between organizations and their major stakeholders. We see trust wobbles all the time at the level of company. We did a lot of work with Uber. They were having a big, bad empathy wobble with drivers, with riders, with regulators. Organizations have to fix their wobbles as well. Here's the promise we make when we teach this. By the end of the session, you will be more in control and able to build more trust tomorrow than you can today.

There you go and so that's by understanding the theory that you're presenting the three legs of the stool and then saying um asking people for some basic commitments to themselves probably right can you be more authentic authentic can? It's really helping them with the diagnosis, right? It's not, if you can diagnose it, we can give you really practical prescriptions for how to overcome it. And sometimes we live, like not everybody has an accurate self-diagnosis. So we address that.

But I mean, we could do it live with you right now. I'm not saying it would be good theater, but that's like, it's- I'm always game. Yeah, yeah, I'm always game. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always game. Yeah. Because, because people tend to stumble. If you look at this pattern of three, people tend to stumble on the same one most of the time. So the question we would ask you, not most people, it's each person most of the time. So if we said, Michael, think of the last three times you didn't earn as much trust as you wanted to.

And think about your skeptics. Yeah, you said that earlier. You said that earlier and I didn't understand it. When I did something and I didn't earn trust. Yeah. So just think back to a situation. It's hard for you because you're trusted like all the time. But just think of the rare moments when you didn't earn as much trust as you were intending.

And you need that moment, that real moment. I got it. I got it. Now ask yourself, did they doubt that it was the real you? That's why they were skeptical. Did they doubt your logic? Or did they doubt your intention that they didn't feel like you were above the line? Okay.

Very clear for me. I'll explain the situation is that without giving details, because I give away the person and I don't want to include them in it, but I, I failed to act to do something that would be uncomfortable for. So let's say the person I wish I would have built more trust with is person a, and I failed to act because person B would have felt uncomfortable. And in return, I would have felt more uncomfortable and I failed to act. And the person I really want to trust with person A looked at me like, are you kidding me?

And so now as I'm diagnosing this with you, I don't think it was authenticity because I said, like, listen, I failed to act. I didn't do the right thing there. And it was just an uncomfortable statement I needed to make. So we would call that an empathy wobble. Yeah, I think that that's right. It wasn't logic. Nope.

Yeah. But you know what? As you're describing this, I tried to use logic to make sense of it. Oh, that's so good. Such a good example. It's such a good example. Yeah. Damn it.

No, that prescription won't work at all. It didn't work. I needed to meet with empathy. It's such a good example. It's such a good example. Yeah. Damn it. No, that prescription won't work at all. It didn't work. I needed to meet with empathy. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. Where were you guys? You prioritized your own needs over the needs of person.

That's it. And so then they look, this person, A, looks at me and goes, hmm, maybe not. You're going to, your needs matter than my needs and actually holy shit that was the exact statement okay i'm so upset with i'm so upset with myself right now because that's not it's not the person i want to be but i have a wobble wobble i love the word wobbles too yeah yeah yeah because it's like it it's temporary it's so fixable it's not like we don't it's not we don't it to be this devastating thing that you burden, you have a deep, meaningful relationship and they had enough space to say, I wasn't cool with that. Whereas I think in some of the more business minded, if you will, like traditional transactional

they wouldn't say it. They're just onto the next and you don't get that feedback loop. You don't get the feedback loop. So the phrase that I have as a fellow empathy wobbler, I would hit things with my tail and wouldn't get the feedback I was doing it. So I was losing trust without even knowing it. Yeah. Is it a dragon's tail or doggy tail, cat tail? What do you got? What kind of tail do you have? Yeah. In my mind's eye, it's a big thorny tail. It's a big thorny tail. A little Labrador puppy's tail.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. You guys are great. Okay. So that's how you work with trust. So I, I would think about trust as time multiplied by behavior. And I say all the time, I don't have any science with that, but to build trust, we need trusting behaviors over time. And you would say, yes. And probably you'd probably say that's good. However, the behaviors that we're talking about there's three types there's behaviors of empathy logic and authenticity and so does that sound

right sounds great yeah yeah okay that's awesome so okay where do we go from here now that i trust you guys are going to show up to be very logical, authentic. We can go anywhere you want. Once you have a foundation of trust, Michael. Yeah, we can go anywhere. Where do you want to go? And the next chapter, so the chapter on trust, our book is It's Not About You, the first chapter. The second chapter is trust.

The third one is love. And the fourth one is belonging um yeah so uh on the love thing i would like to go there because it's an important it's one of the my most important words in my life and the the it's a verb not a noun right and so it requires action and it feels in many respects um i don't know if you've got a there's a gender bias maybe that as soon as i talk about love it feels very many respects, I don't know if you've got a, there's a gender bias, maybe, that as soon as I talk about love, it feels very different than if one of my loved ones is a female talks about love. There's a different kind of thing that happens in different locker rooms. And I'm saying locker rooms, just like sandboxes, if you will. So how do you...

I'm here to complicate the binary part of that. You definitely are. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, so let me pause there for a minute. Like, I don't know enough about... From an academic standpoint, I understand what queer means, but I don't understand the experience of it. Can you shed a little light on that?

Is that okay to do or is that... Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah. I don't know if it's time. Yeah. So do both of you guys identify with being queer we both identify as queer we like this word because we've lost a little bit a track of the acronym like the lgbtq we we just are too old school and we just prefer queer it's what we use to refer to that is what we use to refer to ourselves.

Yeah. And we think, for example, the future is going to be very queer. Right. And we mean, we mean gender queer, which is that whatever gender you were assigned at birth may not be your actual gender. And you have this lifelong journey of discovering and expressing that. This kind of Ken Barbie binary may not work for you

as it doesn't really work for most people. So, you know, Gen Z is going to blow that whole thing up for us. Gen Z has already said no way to it. Like half the generation is like, this is not working. Yeah. Sorry, say that again. I just love seeing it in rap music and other like hip hop culture where people wearing dresses and nails are painted.

I'm talking about men. You know, it's like, you know, you see something happen in here. Yeah. No, it's it's just I mean, we believe it's just as important for men to blow up the construct of gender as it is for women. So the and then there's the what in our our generation, we understood to be more, the more traditional journey of, you know, sexual orientation and, and same sex partnership. And, you know, that, that is more, I think, routine now, like there's such a glorious expression of gender right now, and such a glorious expression of sexuality that they've kind of mundane. I mean, you know, I like grew up in Cincinnati and wasn't so okay to be gay. And then I came out, you know, like that is just, that is like such a nostalgic view of this

stuff now. And as an example, I've never come out i just always was yeah really from a young age so like your friends when you were eight years old would have said yeah like it makes sense we would have i was not attuned to sexuality at eight so i wouldn't but i don't think anyone looked back and ever wondered at whatever age you are. So wait, is, hold on. Is Pat queer from Saturday Night Live? Do you know the skit Pat? Yes. Is that, would you guys say? I don't know the backstory. I don't, I don't either. She read to me. I mean, it's really, it's really like a Rorschach. She read to me as a masculine lesbian. Yes. That's what she read to me, I mean, it's really like a Rorschach. She read to me as a masculine lesbian. Yes, that's what she read to me as as well.

But we had no idea. But I think the point is that you don't know. And I don't think I would call someone else queer. I'd let them self-identify. Yeah, so right. I know you that you're queer, Michael, but I'm going to say yes. Oh, you say yes. All right, let's party. That makes sense.

This is his greatest compliment. She likes to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. I love that. Okay. But Pat deserves her own journey is what you're saying. Yeah. Right. Okay. So then from your experiences, you had very different experiences in the way that you identified and the way that your, your narrative became public. I think so. I mean, I was, I, I, it didn't really occur, like women didn't really occur to me until like late twenties. Um, and you had lots of, you in your mind considered many alternatives where it never occurred to me to have an alternative right it was never an alternative for you i think for me i was dating men i had lots of boyfriends in high school uh it was it was great and then there was something better a lot francis yeah

yeah women yeah and that mean, given the choice, who's not going to choose women. On that note though, is how do you answer the Judeo-Christian, this conservative approach that says, and it's not just Judeo-Christian, but it's a little bit more Western, you know, and certainly Islam as well. How do you answer that? Like, oh, these, they're just confused. And, you know, I'm a little concerned that they're going to, they're going to kind of screw up our kids because we're talking about things that are, you know, like going to really

confuse the kids now. And, you know, how do you answer that? Let's just condescending, you know, approach to humanity. I just, I just pissed off a lot of people too. Frances, you're about to jump out of your seat. I'll give a serious answer and then I'll give a fun answer. Okay, good. Yeah. And I'm actually channeling my wife who was quite thoughtful about this in

another recent public conversation. We are being very kind of casual and flippant about this topic. But the idea that humanity going forward will not treat gender as this immutable, inherited characteristic is a radical change. It is actually much more radical than the idea of same-sex partnership, which is something that has been a part of the human experience since the beginning time, right? Like going back to ancient civilizations. There's nothing new about that. It is, and certainly I think that you can make that case for the trans experience as well. I think what is

different about this moment is we are having a like if you if let's just isolate Gen Z, we are like that we are having a generational global conversation around redefining the most fundamental distinction of how we experience reality. And that is a really profound change. And I actually have deep empathy for how unsettling that can feel for people. And I think that is part of the journey. And inclusion, you know, we have a very big tent relationship with this idea of inclusion and creating spaces where everyone can belong. Now, there is a moment at which if belonging to you means that I can't exist or can't belong as much, then we have to resolve those touch points.

But short of that, but a world where like my mother is still getting her head around the trans experience and my righteous, like 20 something niece isn't sure where she fits on the gender spectrum. Like that is, that is the reality of this moment and i think those experiences can actually coexist quite gracefully uh but it is not without discomfort but i think that's okay that's that is part of the moment that we're in and there's there's there's like learning and progress that's going to come out of that tension i love the thoughtfulness out of my fun sorry yeah i know you took the energy right i ruined the

moment it is totally it's totally and we are being way too flippant and i think that when you think about physical and emotional safety like i was asked to go teach in a country um there where it was illegal and punishable by death to be gay i was asked by the harvard business school to go teach there and i said no it's the first time i ever said no to harvard and they said no to me illegal and punishable by death to be gay. I was asked by the Harvard Business School to go teach there. And I said, no, it's the first time I ever said no to Harvard. And they said no to me five times before I got there, but my first time. And when they were super confused and when they said, you know, you've never said no before. Do you mind? Why are you saying? I'm like, because it's illegal to be gay there. And they essentially said, you will be so welcome that you don't have

to worry about safety. And I said, there is no be so welcome that you don't have to worry about safety. And I said, there is no amount of welcome that can overcome safety. You got to go safe first and then welcome and then celebrated and then cherished. You guys are rad. I'm so stoked that we carved out this time. Like it's so good. Every part of it is thoughtful. It's big.

And it's also at the same time, like you can thin slice right to the heart of it. You know, like I just love every bit of how you guys, and it's fun, you know, and serious. Like you don't lose it with the flippantness. Like I've appreciated every part of this. And so I want to go back to almost statement one about agency as we're wrapping up here. In large organizations that have bureaucracy, governance, reporting structures, there's a little bit of the hangover from the command control type of leadership, which I'm starting to think that maybe we're going to do better than that, you know? And so how do you help organizations express agency in a highly bureaucratized and governing organization? How do you do that? And there's empowerment and agency hang together. So how are you doing that? Well, I mean, I'm going to try to channel my operations wife and giving you a three-part schema, Michael, followed by six-point steps of organizational transformation.

There's a new love language here, isn't there? Understand the logic of the other. That's good. This is foreplay, Michael. I am so happy I can be part of that then. So you do have to honor the past of that institution. And that's really important. And we learned that the hard way in our own efforts to transform various institutions. One's very close to our heart is that you have to acknowledge if you have earned the right to have a command and control structure, there's something that you are protecting. Right. Like there's there's there are stakes to getting this wrong and so really starting with honoring the past but also creating a very clear and compelling change mandate that is aligned with

the meta vision and the meta purpose for that organization like we exist for these stakeholders and so we are going to change in order to position ourselves to better serve the stakeholders, like you have to do the work. And the clear and compelling change mandate without honoring the past the past will just keep pulling you back. Exactly. So if you don't honor the past and the people that were thriving in that case. If you're at all dismissive and like the playfulness that we were doing would not go well. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. So we have to honor the past, have a super clear and compelling change mandate, and then

a really rigorous and optimistic way forward. That's part three. Those are the three parts. Yep. And then the way you honor the past is you would do it by saying, okay, you've been successful. You've been, there's some things that have really worked. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let me stop you.

Let me start right there. In terms of the role play. Yeah. I need a little more. I need a little more enthusiasm. A little more honor. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Like I need you to do that with commitment. None of this dead baby. and oh so so sorry yeah so sorry i gotta get back into the like a front of a room you have built something amazing amazing right yes yeah so so i think one of one of the choke points if you will is that people hear that and they're like yeah but i'm not giving up my power you know like yes we have and i get that we want to be more A, B, and C, whatever this new mandate is. And we want people to feel empowered. Okay, that's good. Well, damn it. Why don't they just be more empowered? Because I want them to do their flipping job. You know, they are empowered to do their job and they should make more decisions. Why does everything get escalated up to

me? You've heard this before, right? Right. That's the clear and compelling changement. So one of the reasons we like burning buildings is because that piece of this journey has been taken care of, right? Because I'm on the front page of the New York Times and I don't like it. This isn't working anymore. My performance has gone down and I don't like it. Like that's what, because otherwise stay in the past.

Yeah. No, let's say the past doesn't work because of, it's not financial. It's something else. This is the progressive business. Financially, they're crushing it. But from a humanistic standpoint, they're feeling the, yeah, they're just like, this isn't good enough. It's not. And so, but there's power in having power and not everybody wants, I don't know anyone that really wants to let go of power

out of fear that they might, if somebody else is empowered, that they're going to lose their power, which is not how it works. Yeah. So the book we wrote, which is called Unleashed, the Unapologetic Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You, it begins with a Toni Morrison quote that is essentially, once you have gotten that power you so richly deserve, your job is to turn around and empower someone else. So the fundamental definition of leadership that we use is leadership is about making others better as a result of your presence and having it last into your absence.

So when you are thinking in that fixed pie way, we would not call you a leader because you're being way too self-absorbed. But if your job is to unleash others, and by the way, if I unleash others and you do it in a fixed pie, I'm going to thump you. That is absolutely the quote. Yes, yes, yes. And I would say, I would add to it is that I'm not so sure that you can give me, that you can empower me. This is where I get a little hung up on the word.

Because if you can empower me, guess what? You can take it back, back to this trust thing. So I'm not so sure that I need somebody to empower me. I need to know how to express the power that I already own, that is already within me. And there's some organizational stuff that doesn't allow me to do that. And if I'm okay with it, I'll stay.

I've never met anyone who got to their full potential without the help of someone else. Never. I like that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I say often, I say the extraordinary is too big, too complicated, too beautiful to do it alone. Nobody does it alone. Not one person. Yeah. Right. I like that.

Okay. You guys are great. All right. So where do we get the book? Where can we follow you? Where can people call you and email you to do some work together? You can come to our website, theleadersguide.com. We just started a newsletter that's super fun. We get to just write love letters to the world. You can find the book there. What's really fun about this point in our careers is we get to do the work that we love to do. Back to my freedom fetish, it's also the freedom to work with. Only the people we get to do the work that we love to do back to my freedom fetish. It's also the freedom to work with only the people we want to work with that, you know, the leaders and organizations we love and that are really on the right path might have some boulders that we can

help right size to pebbles and then they can sweep them away. I want to figure out how to work with you guys. I don't know if you include me in there and you'd want to, but I would love to work with you guys. You're on your way, Michael. Come on, one day, maybe one day. But we've got some enterprise companies and some large organizations that are looking to help, looking to us to help them be really progressive in the human aspect of excellence. And so we're wrestling with a lot of the things that you guys are down the

path on. And so I'm looking forward to more, hopefully. Cool. Us too. Yeah. And check out the book. I think it really does capture the way we think about the world and we think about problems and there's a lot of schematics in it. Yeah. A lot of 10 point lists. A lot of top 10 lists. A lot of top 10 lists. Hey, you know, I'm going to send you guys the book that I recently published. Authenticity is in the subtitle and compete is in the title. Two of our favorite. It's called, it's called compete to create. It means really like compete in the sense of it, create a living masterpiece.

So you gotta, you gotta work your way into creating a living masterpiece. Love it. Love it by the title and by the sentiment. Love it. Yeah. You guys are. We'll have some fun together. Okay.

Thank you guys. It's been beautiful. Thanks so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. Super fun. Okay. Take care. Bye.

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