Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Pressure of Coaching | Former USWNT Coach, Jill Ellis

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Jill Ellis, the former head coach of the U.S Women’s National Team.Jill is the all-time winningest coach in U.S. Soccer History. She led the team to World Cup victories in 2015 and 2019 and was twice named FIFA World Coach of the Year.She completed her time with the National Team with a record of 106 wins, 7 losses, and 19 ties.Previous to the National Team, she was the head coach of the women’s soccer team at UCLA for 12 years.A few weeks back I had the fortune of speaking with one of Jill’s former players, Becky Sauerbrunn, who mentioned the inherent pressure that comes with playing on the National Team.There are so many highly talented individuals vying for so few spots. Competition for playing time is through the roof. There is constant pressure to win.I wanted to speak with Jill to better understand their culture and her process for managing – especially when the culture gets tested._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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you know, again, it's not life or death. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am Michael Gervais by Trade and Training. I'm a sport and performance psychologist. So these conversations, this podcast is to learn from people who are extraordinary, who have committed their life efforts towards the path of mastery, to better understand how to make sense of themselves and the world around them, to better understand what it is that they're searching for, how they use their mind to excel in life. And that life is either their inner life and or their external life, their craft. And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills

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to understand culture, if you want to understand how to create environments that are amazing to get the most out of humans and to leave shine on the people that are in it, I mean, she definitely has created and inherited, in her own words, some amazing practices to help people become their very best. So Jill understands winning. She is the all-time winningest coach in U.S. soccer history. She led the team to World Cup victories in 2015 and 2019 and was twice named FIFA World Coach of the Year. Think about that. World Coach of the Year. That's pretty cool now. So she completed her time with the national team with a record of 106 wins, 7 losses, and 19 ties. Previous to the national team, she was the head coach of the women's soccer team at UCLA

for 12 years. And a few weeks back, I had the fortune of speaking with one of Jill's former players, Becky Sauerbrunn. And if you haven't had a chance to listen to that, definitely check that out for sure. And Becky mentioned the inherent pressure that comes from playing on the national team. There are so many highly talented individuals that are vying for so few spots that competition for playing time is through the roof. And there's a constant pressure in here to win as well. So we get into that here. How is this pressure that they've created facilitating excellence? And not just facilitating winning, but something far deeper and far more impactful for the people

that are in it. And that's what I wanted to share with you. That's why I wanted to have Jill on. And I wanted to talk to Jill about, you know, okay, culture is one thing. And for the record, like the way I think about culture is that it's the artifact of relationships. So relationships are what make culture. And so I want to talk about with her like, okay, so you've got clarity of what the culture that you're working to create is. Everyone's on the same page, at least understanding intellectually what it is. But then what happens when culture gets tested? What happens when relationships start to get scratchy, when there's irritability and frustration,

when things aren't going according to plan. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Coach Jill Ellis. Jill, how are you? I'm great. Thanks very much. It is an absolute joy to spend some time with you. You're a legend in your craft. You've made a massive dent in a sport that so many people in North America grew up playing, so many people across the planet. One of the number one sports played across the planet. And so first, before we get going, I just want to say congrats on your body of work. It's significant, it's meaningful, and I can't wait to talk to you about it.

Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm looking forward to your discussion. It's going to be interesting. Cool. And we've got some mutual friends, right? Obviously, a bunch of the folks that you've coached on your team have been part of this Finding Mastery conversations, as well as Coach Val Kondos from UCLA, from gymnastics. So we've got some mutual friends, which is always cool. Yeah, no, I listened to hers and it was great. I was super insightful. I actually texted her and I'm like, holy crap, you did a great job. And it would be painless. Okay, so let's do this.

Let's just set the frame because your insights and the way that you help people, some of the most extraordinary doers on the planet, especially in your game of soccer, are able to get, you're able to structure your coaching and your culture to really maximize their experience. And so, but to set that stage, let's go back. I know you didn't grow up in the States. So let's talk about where you grew up, what it was like, what was the dinner table like, the whole thing. What was it like growing up? And that's just to give us some context. Well, I grew up in England. We spent two or three years in Singapore. My

father was military. So he was gone a lot, like home weekends or gone for months at a time. So my mom really kind of raised my brother and I from the age of six on and it was um yeah I mean it was a competitive I my brother's two and a half years older than me so there was a lot of we were kind of like the cartoon Tom and Jerry you know constantly fighting and um you know I always uh we always had some rough and tumble moments but it was uh it was a fun it was a fun time in terms of just sports were all around me. My dad was coaching as well. But sport was everywhere.

You know, I ran track and field. I did sports at school. And so that was, I think that was my outlet. That was something that I truly enjoyed. And I enjoyed school as well. But I think, you know, mostly it was just joy when my father was home. Just suddenly just, you know, would come together and it would be, whether it was 24 hours, 48 hours, we would just enjoy those moments together. And so when he was away, right, like how did you make sense of that as a young kid?

You know, I think it's just, I think when you, you know, you're around a military family, you just understand that that's part of it. My mom was an incredibly strong person. So we, you know, we never felt like we ever missed a beat. My mom was the disciplinarian. It was almost like, you know, the opposite these days, you know, the father, but it wasn't something that I struggle with. I just remember Friday nights sitting in the window sill, as we call it in England, waiting for my dad's headlights to come through the, through the gate. You know, it was kind of that moment that it was just so exciting for him to be home. And we just, yeah, I made the most of it, but it wasn't something that I,

you know, stressed, stressed about or worried about. Okay. And then, so what were some of the, let's call it the gems that your parents pass on to you? And then also some of the things, maybe they didn't get quite right. So, and this is not bad about your parents, you know, right? But this is just about the framework, whether it was from the neighborhood, whether it was from the cultural kind of messages, things that were reinforced or dismissed in your family. But so what were some of the things that you go, you know, my mom did a great job at this, my dad did a great job at that? You know what I think? I never thought about it this way, but I think they fed my passion. You know, like I was a voracious reader. I love to read.

And every week my mom would buy me a new book. and, you know, we weren't super wealthy family, but she would find a way of getting me a new book every single week. You know, taking me to sports. She used to drive this little old car and we, she would sit on the, this hill and watch me run. And these were, you know, cold nights. So I just think that they really tried to feed my passion for the things that I enjoyed to do, enjoyed doing. So from her, it was just a sacrifice. I think I saw a lot of and selflessness. Is mom still alive? Is she still with you? Yes. Yes. Okay. And would you say like, okay, mom, mom was happy or was it more like, you know, I just got that mom cared a lot. I'm trying to get that like the main attribute that mom stood for for you. I think stability. Yes. I mean, I knew she cared. She's a Scots woman and, you know, they have a very strong sense of pride.

I can't I can't remember a lot of hugging. You know, in fact, my mom had cancer a few years ago and I remember her coming through it and it really made her more emotional. She almost kind of this release of emotion. So I just think my mom was very solid, strong. I knew she cared. And again, she was the disciplinarian,

you know, because she had to be. It was two rough house kids running riot. How did those three characteristics play forward in maybe yeah in your coaching philosophy in the way that you animated as being a coach i think you know certainly the the consistency piece you know people would say to me you know what makes what makes a great player or a great team? And I think, you know, you, anyone can have those moments of high, you know, performance, but I think it's consistency. And I think what I saw in my mom was a consistency in her, her behavior. You know, she wasn't, I don't remember her ever losing it or being emotional. It just, there was a very

consistent, I think I took that on. I remember, you know, being on the sideline and seeing my, one of my assistant coaches being incredibly emotional. And I thought to remember, you know, being on the sideline and seeing my, one of my assistant coaches being incredibly emotional. And I thought to myself, you know, if I have a coach, I want to be so steady on that sideline that the team never thinks I'm not with them in that moment. So I think, you know, I tried to, and as a young coach, I didn't master that for sure. But I think trying to be as consistent as I could with my players was something that was important and you know I again I think being someone that they could rely on you know I think I my hope is that any of my players would know you know if they were ever in a bind they could pick

up the phone and call okay so on that consistent piece there's a reliability that you can call me anytime. And then sometimes with consistency, I hear two things when I hear that. I hear I show up the same way, independent of environment, independent of conditions, like I'm consistent in my approach. And then the other way that I was coaching or, you know, what level, the desire to bring it and be professional, that consistency certainly was there. I think the emotional piece, I think I had to manage that, you know, because I think when you are young, you tend to become a little bit unharnessed if decisions don't go your way. I mean, the one thing I would say is I would never scream at my team. You know, if something wasn't good enough, I tried not to raise my voice and just let the words sort of manifest in terms of, you know, we can be better, let's do better, et cetera, et cetera.

But, yeah, I mean, I think trying to, I think I grew as a coach in terms of my emotional reins that I put on myself on a sideline. Okay. So does that mean early days you were unbridled, meaning kind of like volatile in your emotions, or did you cap it like in that kind of stoic, golly, there's so much happening under the motion, but I'm just or under the surface, but I'm just going to kind of be even keel on the surface? No, I would say in my early younger days of coaching, you know, especially when, you know, and now I look back on it and it's, you know, slightly embarrassing. But whenever, you know, if a referee made a poor decision, it was never something like about the players. It was, you know, if there was a poor decision or, you know, we have red cards in our sport. I mean,

I got a couple and the two that I got were because my players were violently tackled. You know, those emotions come out and I, yeah, I have a hard time kind of keeping those in back in the day. And then I realized, you know, that's just expended energy. I need to be, what I learned the higher I went up in the coaching in terms of, you know, with the senior team, it was, you can't miss a second. You can't waste your emotion because you have to make a decision. It's the next decision is what you need to be focused on. There is the economy that we need to manage, right? Because if you're flailing with emotions and emotions are really an important part it doesn't mean that they're not important i mean they're

radically important but if you're flailing and caught i like to think of them you know trains of thought and similarly uh akin like there's a train of emotion and if i'm too far down the path and i'm missing kind of the i don don't know, the home stop, wherever I need to be, man, stuff gets missed. And that's where things fall apart. And also, like, I think you would probably agree that creative and critical thinking, and I don't mean critical of others, but solving something and being creative in it, that deep now, the deep focus required for the deep now, requires you to be all in. And if you're emotionally unhinged, it's hard to get to the good stuff. For sure. Okay. So, all right, then let's go to dad.

What were some of the kind of core stuff that dad helped you understand from a young age? Take risk. I mean, that was something he, you know, he said, you know, when you had a big decision, that's an exciting space to live in, you know, he said, you know, when you had a big decision, that's an exciting space to live in, you know, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but, you know, when you sit at the crossroads or a juncture, and you, you know, people can be paralyzed, gosh, you know, what should I do? And he's like, what an amazing space to be in, you have choices, like, that's a blessed space to be in. And so it was never like when I had big

decisions, it was never something that kind of paralyzed me. It was okay, either way, I'm going to win here. This is a cool space to live in. And I think it allowed me many times to take that different route. I could have stayed in England. I wanted to come here. I could have stayed at UCLA. There were many junctions where I was fine taking the risk of the unknown. I'm not someone that needs to have everything mapped out in front of me. So dad is also an optimist? Incredibly so, yes. Guy has a silver lining in every realm. Is he grounded in that approach or does it seem reckless and naive where you're like oh that's

not safe i can't adopt all of that or is it something more aspiring which is like you know wow like the freedom that comes with finding what's good and really believing that that could happen is it more down that lane it's definitely that i think you know the the reality is when you know and sure like, many people in this country, when you've been in live combat, I mean, sport is not life or death, you know, like, and those things, I think, have grounded him to find that, you know, when you've seen probably the very worst of things that could happen, then getting a speeding ticket or whatever, you know, whatever thing that could kind of make us feel frustrated or uncertain or, you know, in terms of a result of a game. I just think he

always tried to give me that perspective that, you know, think positively and good things will happen. I think that's probably a sum of his experiences he's gone through. Perspective matters. And if you haven't lived through hard times or had experiences that test you, you don't get that perspective. We have to earn it. And it was a conversation I was having with the CEO of J.Crew.

And it was right when we're going through the beginnings of the pandemic. And she says, you know, it's going to be interesting to see, and I'm paraphrasing, it's going to be interesting to see what our country's made of. Are we made of grit or are we truly entitled? And so, you know, unfortunately, it seems like it's the latter and we've really struggled to demonstrate that we're going to do the hard right thing and so that's my take on it you know I don't know what your take on it is and I don't do you want to add to it or well in terms of the comment on where we are socially I mean I

would I would 100% agree I mean I think we you know I look at a lot of things in terms of teams and gosh we've all got to do our part and you know, I look at a lot of things in terms of teams and gosh, we've all got to do our part. And, you know, one of the things I would always say to the players is you don't need to love your role, but you need to execute your role. And that's something that, you know, we as a community, we as a society, all of us need to execute the role. We don't have to love it. We just need to do it. And so I think that's something. But in terms of your previous comments, I certainly think that, you know, hardship and struggle are absolutely, you know, a place that you go through and you just, I'm much richer because of my failures, as hard as that is to say.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, when you're in it, it's hard, but then when you get through it, you're like, Oh, well I can, I can do harder things. So what once was hard is now actually quite simple, right? The perspective that you cannot buy, you can't buy wisdom, you can't buy experience and you can't buy, um, perspective for sure. All right. So all that being said, so I'm getting a picture of mom and dad. What was the dinner table like? A lot of banter. I think British people do have an interesting sense of humor. So there was always a lot of kind of banter and give and take.

There was a lot of sneaking food off the table for the dog because, dear Lord, some of the things I even said to my mom the other day, I'm like, think about what you fed me. It wasn't very palatable, let's just say. But yeah, I think that they were engaging. We always sat down whenever my father was home, we always sat down as a family. There was a lot of structure in terms of the meal time. But I definitely think it was a time where we, you know, were interrogating my dad in a lot of ways, trying to find out what he'd been doing, what he'd been up to, because we're not in his world as frequently as we were. And then he would, it was a lot of questions. There were a lot of questions at his table. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance,

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just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code Findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So here's early life. Optimistic, risk-taking, you were valued in enough that they would listen to you and create the space. So you had some efficacy, some esteem that was part of it. There was consistency. And mom certainly had the ability to demonstrate in her ways that she cared. Right. So you had five or six of those tenants. Would you say that that is how you coach now,

or have you mutated or changed or upgraded? Or would you say, nah, those are the five or six that I brought into my professional career as well? Yeah, I would say that they are. I mean, but I almost feel like I've grown into those. You know, it was almost like I had to come around, you know, the whole sense of optimism. You know, I don't think you can be a leader if you don't have that. And I think that, you know,

recognizing the values that my parents put into me. I mean, you know, one of the things my father always did is like, share your success, own your failure. You know, that was something that these were things that you just grew up embracing. So I very much feel that those carry through to, you know, to how you go into management and coaching and probably even playing. You know, as a player, I was very competitive, but I always believed we were going to win the game. It also spilled over into my sports. Are you trying to win or are you trying to

collectively find your best on a day-to-day basis? You can hybrid anything, but if you had to, had to pick one of those two. Now or back then as a player? Let's go, let's go coach. Well, I think, again, I learned a lot. I, you know, we had success at UCLA, but what I learned there is I was so focused on the trophy, on the outcome, on winning. And I was mind blown.

You know, I got to meet Coach Wooden a few times. I was mind blown. Like, how did he never talk about winning? You know, because it just seemed foreign to me because, you know, that's what I wanted to do. But I think in time, yes, I've learned that the, you know, the steps and the process and the growth and all these things that happen. I think I realized that when we won the first World Cup, it was gone in a second, that feeling. And so now it was, okay, what's next? And so I'm trying to, I think what I realized is actually the climb is really where the commitment is and the passion is in that ascension to try, to be prepared, and to come up with

integrity, to come through that with a sense of integrity. Like, I know what it means to prepare, to be tested, to prepare, to be tested, and to own my own sense of self and to do it collectively with others, whether it's team or individual sport, nobody does it alone. And so I think that that's the real, for me, that's the special stuff. But it's also, I get caught in my head a little bit, even saying it out loud right now, because sometimes it feels like, because I've been fortunate to work with people that are extraordinary, before they met me, extraordinary. And it feels a little bit like the billionaire that says, oh, money's overrated.

Well, if you don't have shelter or reliable food sources, it's not overrated. And when you look at the billionaire and they've got all the toys, you know, it's easy to say, well, yeah, of course, you know, you would say that. So I get caught in my head a little bit about winning, too, that it's easy to say when you've been part of a bunch of it which you have been and so if you had to pick one is it about winning or is it about the process of becoming i certainly think the process of becoming you know and because winning is is just that's that's what it says. It doesn't give you that value that you, that you crave in a sense of a, you know, of development of personal growth. It just is, I mean, it's fleeting. It's, it's gone in a second, you know, and I think that's, yeah, I would definitely say that the journey has been more valuable to me.

So what is it that you are searching for, that you're craving or longing for, whatever word that you want to tonally shape the question with? I think when I was, I think just at my core and at my root, and this goes all the way back to when I would bring home the injured bird, like, I just, I want to care. I want to help people. Like, that's, I think, something that helping people, whether it's obviously achieve a goal, or it's help someone, you know, get off drugs, like, that's the, that fills me up. Like, that's the's the, that, that fills me up. Like that's the piece I think that fills me up. So if I'm searching or striving something, it's, it's what can I do to make this better for somebody? So I was asked this, it was in the late stages of my PhD program. And it was kind of in the applied section where we're getting hands-on from the guru mentor of the university and so he sat us around in a room and there was only a handful of us and he looked at us and he proposed a question which i want to propose the same to you with all due humility he didn't ask it with humility so but i'm going to ask it to you

with humility is that he said and and I remember it burned right into me. He said, okay, so you want to be a sports psychologist? I'm like, yeah. He says, what gives you the right to think that you can help another person? I was like, ooh. He says, you better answer that question. Because without it, without without answering that question you're going to be full of it you're going to have a lot of hot air you know and it's not going to be really real and they're going to answer it for you you know like are you going to earn that position in their life and so it was a good soul-searching moment but when i ask it to you like if i drop the question about what gives you the right but like where does it come from that you believe that you know more, better, you have strategies to help people that

they maybe don't have on their own? See, I think that's taking a very negative part of that question, because it's not that you assume that you have the answers, because sometimes it's just caring about that person's process that helps them find the answers. Right. I mean, I think the you know, what gives me the right. Yeah, I don't have all the answers. But I think I want to help that person either. And I think it's so there's so much fabric to this. Like, you know, it's it's whether they are finding the confidence. I'm not giving them confidence, but maybe I'm encouraging them to be in that space. It's, I'm not going to teach them how to bend the ball upper 90, but it's putting a training session together that they can practice that.

Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that's where I come from in the capacity to help. Yeah, I mean, I've had a friend who was on drugs and you can't ever think that someone is too much trouble. You have to commit to at least trying. And that's where I just, that's kind of, that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah. Cool. Nice, nice reframe on it. If we had, I don't know, how many, how many athletes would you say at the national level have you coached? Gosh, I, 7,500, maybe more. I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a lot. And if you were to distill down the ones that made the teams, what would be the three things you'd hope they'd say about you?

That I was truthful. I mean, honest. I feel that I never tried to tell a player what they wanted to hear. I tried to always be as honest. I think that's a show of respect to that person. This is their craft. This is what they're working on. This is what they're sacrificing for. I'm not going to candy coat her. I'm not going to. So that's, I think, truthfulness would be, I would hope. Probably that I care. I think that would be something that whether it's empathy, compassion. Again, I mean, I've had to cut players and I'm tearing up. I, again, I mean, I, I've had to cut players and I'm tearing up. I'm not trying to tear up in front of them,

but it touches me to that point when you're having to have that hard conversation. But I think that they, I hope that they would understand that that's, that's not an easy decision or, but you know so I say, I would say caring compassion um gosh i think detailed would probably be one of the one of the things in terms of i think my my day-to-day life is pretty chaotic if you look at my calendar you wouldn't know which way is up on my desktop but i feel that preparation is important and so that i feel that to help them i think players get confidence from feeling prepared it's like putting a suit of armor on

and so i think that that would be something that i hope that they would think that i was committed to helping them be prepared on the preparation side I'm interested in two parts of that. One is like, how do you structure preparation so that you can be other, maybe it's a discipline thing for me. I'm not sure, but they all feel so important, you know? So I'm curious how you spent the time to create and prepare. And then the other is on preparation is confidence from my experience comes from not past success or preparation, but it comes from this filter that everything has to pass through, which is, can I do that thing over there? And to do it right, to have confidence, it's based on some of the past stuff, but it's that last filter that makes or breaks confidence. Because you can have all the great success and all the great preparation, but that last filter

is what makes or break confidence. So I'd love for you to respond on both of those. Yeah, in terms of translating. I mean, when I think of preparation, I go to a game plan, you know, in terms of that's where you kind of drill down into it. And I think understanding, you know, when you prepare a game plan, you're looking at not just the opponent, but how you convey that information. How do you frame that game plan, you're looking at not just the opponent, but how you convey that information. How do you frame that information so that you can instill this sense that I can manage that in the game. So it's, it's saying, Hey, this is what France is really good at. And even saying to them, this is a,

this is an area of the field they want to get into. This is how we are going to manage it. This is how, and you frame it in that way. So I think that's, and when I would do that, I would have clips to show them managing that situation so that they, you're right, they can visualize that this is what I should expect. This is what I've been able to do. Therefore, I'm ready to handle this task again. I think that's probably as best as I can say in terms of, you know, giving them confidence. Yes, I think it gives them a sense of what to expect. They still have to manage that situation, I would agree. Okay, so I love that. Who taught you that? Because that's actually a strategy that I learned both from Karch Karai, one of the legends at UCLA

in volleyball, like one of the greatest to ever play in coach. And then also coach Carroll does the same exact thing. And I've asked them, where'd you learn it? And they're like, ah, no one taught it to them. They're like, it just kind of makes sense to be able to figure out the right way to frame something and then to give them evidence that they can do this thing. And it's almost like you're not shortcutting anything. There's no shortcuts in my mind, at least there's no shortcuts, but it's giving them frames of reference. Like this is where we've been successful in the past. This is where you such and such has been able to get this cross or hold down this part of the field

or whatever it might be. And that, that becomes almost like a intermediate step for high performing imagery, right? It's like a step in between instead of saying to somebody, hey, go imagine it. You'll be great. It's like you're framing it and then you're giving them some past experience that they can hook into. So, okay, let me get off my box for a minute. Yeah, so where did you learn that? Where'd that come from? Yeah, I mean, again, I would say, I would echo what they've said. It just makes sense, you know, and especially now, you know, back in the day when we didn't have a lot of film and tape and the, you know, the processes were out, you know, outdated. Now, when you have such clear visuals, I think it just reinforces them. And obviously it's a learning tool as well. But I

think when you're preparing for I think when you're preparing for battle, when you're preparing for a game, you want to, you know, arm them with these positive images of them managing those situations. And, you know, I would even go to the extent of, I wouldn't pick games that were, you know, blowouts or games against them doing it against, you know, opponents that are probably lesser than what we're about to face. I would find examples from games where it's a really good opponent. So then they even reinforces the fact that, well, that was just that opponent.

No, no, you did it against this team. So I didn't learn it. I think it was just something that, yeah, it just makes sense in terms of framing it for them. Actually, there's good science to what you're describing because when you're looking at something that's too easy or too hard, there's narratives that quickly fill that space. So if something looks like it's too big, it's like, okay, that's for next year. Or that's for those types of people to rise to that. I'm not one of those. So there's a storytelling there. And if it's too small or too easy, same thing. So finding that sweet spot, which is like probably like a, I'm going to make this number up, like a 10%, 4% margin of variance where it could go either way, but if you really bring it, you know, like, you know, so there's some little small margin in there for sure. Okay. So when you're coaching, Jill, are you trying, do you put yourself in their shoes? Like, are you coming from a place of empathy, compassion,

understanding that the athlete is at the center? Or is it more systems thinking? I don't know how you're going to plug into this. But to get this done, we need to plug in and fill these holes. No, I think that I think the former, I think, know if you if you build a team and you want to harness the assets of a team um then you have to understand the strengths of those players at some degree the weaknesses of those players and you have to create something that allows that to to strengthen and to grow i mean this is what i what I would say, and maybe I refer to you on this one, but when you get to the top, top level, these players aren't changing dramatically. It's not development.

I mean, there's an environment where they can work on things, but they're really established at this point in their careers. So it's more about – so you're not going to try and get that round peg in that square hole. You've got to really shape that team and that environment to harness those assets that you want. I think that's probably my take on it. Yeah, there you go. Okay. So that actually, that goes to the caring thing as well for you is that you're trying to understand what makes them special and then put them in that position. You're also trying to figure out in a detailed, prepared way, how to be able to help them frame it and see and feel what success

would look like. And then you practice against that. Yeah. Okay. And practice. I've asked a handful of your athletes this question. What is it like? What makes the U.S. women's national team so special? I want to share what some of them say, but I want to hear how you describe it first before I kind of pollute the conversation. You know, it is a testing ground. It's, you know, it's fierce. It's combative. It's, you know, I would say the intensity. You know, it's fierce, it's combative, it's, you know, I would say the intensity. You know, I've had people that watch the games on television and then they come to a training session and they're up close and personal. And they're like, wow, just because the tempo of everything we do. And even as we went through the training session, because our transitions between drills, we tried to continue that tempo. So there was no drop off in terms of a rhythm of the training because it's

maximum intensity, you know, on the pitch, as we move through things, that's really what it's like. I mean, it's a battle out there for these players and every day I feel that they probably feel under the microscope and it's not necessarily from the coach. It's from there's this, there's 10 other people that want your spot, you know, and that's, that's a pressure to perform daily. Yeah. So they've described exactly that. They've used the words excellence, cauldron, competitiveness, you know, like you better bring

your A game because it's on. And they've also talked about this narrative. Like there's, there's people that are waiting to take your spot, which to me sounds like a fear-based approach. But it's true. It's a true statement. So were you using that? I don't know if that came from you or you inherited that approach or because it was part of the team prior to that. But is that a good thing? Like, Hey, there's, if you're not going to try hard enough,

there's someone's going to take your spot next, next person up. So. You know, I think it's, it's a, I mean, is it a tool? Yes. But I think it's something that was inherent in the culture of that team, that sense that you have to prove yourself every single day. So I don't think that that's something that, you know, I certainly wasn't like, oh, you know, but when you bring in new players, everything's a message, right? Everything sends a message. When you take a group down that end, it's the starting group, or, you know, there's always these messages. And sometimes you can't worry about every single

message you're sending you got to coach your team you got to get these players ready you got to find players that can um play at this level and execute the you know the game plan so to speak so i don't think you you focus on that per se um but i think there is just this unwritten you know reality that there's yeah there's a lot of people who want to be in your spot it's not something as a coach you throw out you that there's, yeah, there's a lot of people who want to be in your spot. It's not something as a coach, you throw out and go, Oh, there's 10 people want your spot. You better deliver. It's just, it's not my approach, but I think there's this feeling that they feel that because it's just, again, part of the culture. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So how do you manage so many egos, so many personalities, so many highly talented people? How do you manage them? And maybe managing isn't the right word, but certainly you've been able to create a way for some of the most talented in the world to work together and to produce consistently. How do you do that? I think there are, you know, there's an environment you can set up, meaning actually the physical components of training. But I think the, you know,

and this is probably something that you take with all the teams I've ever been involved with, that people, I think players ultimately want to, two things. I think they want to feel valued and, and there wants to be a sense of trust between them, right? There has to be trust. And I think the value part as a coach, you can shape that narrative. Every time you're in front of the media, it's saying, 23 players are going to help us win this World Cup.

Our depth is the key to winning this World Cup. It's those messages that you send that your players do pick up on, and they kind of beat that drum. And some of that is certainly going to filter in because you i think they believe that as well um it's it's you know starting a meeting and i've spoken about this many many times it's starting a meeting the day after a game with visuals of our bench celebrating so that they feel that connection it It's calling our substitutes, our reserves, game changers, not subs or reserves. So there's all these kind of, I don't know,

ways you can kind of shape that. It's even when you do a training session, it's making sure every single player has the same information. It's not just focusing on the five starters or, you know, I'm thinking basketball now or just whatever. It's making sure every player has access to the same things. So I think that's one way where you create this synergy. I think the other thing, and I learned this from a player,

when you name that roster, that is an instant moment because that's what they're striving to make. They are grinding and sacrificing to make a roster once you name that roster it it automatically brings a group together you know they feel and it and it's the united states they get to represent their country so i think there's a lot of different ways that way but i think in terms of managing um the players again it's having honest conversations and open conversations i think one of the things that can destroy an environment is when people live in the gray area like i'm real big on trying to have people understand and have clarity in roles expectations responsibilities i think that's

important i can only imagine that that culture, your attention to detail, your preparation would bring out the best in you as well. You know, that that would create a way, like a cauldron for you or an inspiring culture for you as well. Is that the case or am I romanticizing it a bit too much? No, 100 percent. I watched my first international final. I remember because it was Athens, Georgia, the US team were playing this 96 Olympic final. And I remember watching it and thinking, oh my gosh, this, it was intoxicating. Because suddenly when you play against different countries, you're exposed to different styles and it's just, it scratches your brain more. And so now when you go into that environment, not only playing against the best in the world, you've also got these incredible assets here that you want to make sure, how do I maximize them? So again, it scratches your brain more. And I definitely find that, I love that.

I absolutely thrive in that. When you coach athletes, are you trying to, and you're kind of force ranking their their assets their skills do you coach their strengths do you coach try to shore up some of their middle less proficient skills and abilities or are you trying to like um you know coach the their least proficient skills what What is your approach there? That's a great question. I would say you coach, certainly you coach the strengths because you try and put them in positions where they're going to be successful. Like, you know, you're not putting this player here because it doesn't make sense

because of their skill set and their profile. But I do think what you try and do in terms of address the weaknesses are, what are the things that will not cause the whole to function, if that makes sense. So it's not specifically working on, you know, someone's technique. It's going, okay, if they're sideways on here, they're going to be able to see the rest of the play. They're going to be able to drop with the line.

It's coaching something relational to the other players instead of just the individual. Oh, that's interesting. So double click on that. Yeah, let's unpack that because you're saying, can you make that super concrete? Like if there's two players, you can keep their names out of it, but like, or use them if it's a, if it's a well-documented case. Yeah. So, I mean, I spent a lot of time working with, with the back line and, and, you know, Becky was, I think she did her thing. I mean, phenomenal player, phenomenal defender. Becky Sauerbrum. It was, you know, it's making sure that, you know, for her, she's doing her part. But now can we make sure that she's also trying to keep the line connected, keep the line together?

And that means she's got to read the cue on the ball. So maybe she's not reading it early enough. So now it's like, hey, Becky, focus on this, drive the line. So it's her piece, but it's related to the entire back line. One of the things that I again learned is, you know, Jose Mourinho, a famous coach, he says he coaches the team. And I think when I was a younger coach, I was trying to drill into more individuals. But I think when you're at that level, because you need such an incredible synergy in a team, I think I coach more the team in terms of just the individual.

I don't know how you feel about that as a sports psychologist. No, I think it's really, I've seen it. And it's one heartbeat, one mind. And it works when the individuals feel seen and experience that they matter because they breathe, because they have a mind as well, because they have a heartbeat that's contributing. And there's that toggling between the two where I think my favorite approach is that you treat each person independently different, but with high standards, you know, so there's like, you and I are different people. So if someone's coaching us, like they're going to have to speak to us in a little different way. And at the same time, hold the standard where you're not getting away with things. And just because you're a high talent, and I'm having to actually do extra work,

you know, that's, I've seen that play out in the wrong way and is one of the reasons I know that for me, it seems disastrous because there's just so much back storytelling and frustration from all the others that are not the one getting the special pass. So, so you're coaching the team, the team message, the team unit, the one mind, if you will. But you're spot on. I think there are, you know, when you get to know your players, you know that players, some will take the information much better in a one-on-one meeting than in front of the group. You know, you get that sense of what makes it work.

But yeah, I think when I got to that, it was more the collective in terms of, I think, because also there was an acknowledgement that, you know more the collective in terms of, I think because also there was an acknowledgement that, you know, there's only so far, if you're working with young players, you can, you know, there's so much that you can take them on. But when you're working with the best already, I mean, it's incremental, right? And it's minimal, the differences you can make in terms of that player's skill set. And in business, it's the same, right? That there are extraordinary producers that can, unfortunately, constrict the culture and create a problematic culture because they're not managed properly. And it's because they are bringing in, you know, millions of dollars. And so they get

to act how they want. It's a problem. You know, so it happens in business. It happens in sport. How do you deal with the athlete that is a high earner, a high producer, and isn't quite fitting in the culture and isn't holding the right standard, isn't behaving in the right way isn't acting right how do you manage that yeah i think you can say all this at the end of the day it comes down to a blunt conversation um you know i think that again i think it goes back to the truthfulness it's hey this is this is the expectation again you know i think what i realized working with professionals is you know i think when i was a coach, it's like I wanted my players to, you know, aspire and dream, you know, to grow their role.

And I think what I realized here is I just need them to be professional about it. And so, you know, if a player's role is changed or shifted, it's if they're not, their behavior is not something that's conducive to the whole group, the conversation eventually comes to, you know what, we need this. And if this can't happen, then we can't make this journey together. When you say that and an athlete goes, and I'll play it back to you. Oh, my bad, coach. You're right. My bad. That won't happen again.

But then it does. Right. And you kind of need them. Yeah. No, it's... You know, like that's the hard one, right? Like, oh my God, the delta between her talent and the next up is significant. And I don't know, maybe the deltas were not that big a deal. And the next up was like, they were also kick-ass. But so my bad coach, you're right.

No, that's a great question because I think sometimes as a coach, you make decisions that are best for the team, potentially not best for you. Right. And that's where their culture gets sacrificed. And on paper, preseason, this is the ultimate test, I think. Right. Preseason, it's all good everyone's feeling good the vision's right it's exciting who's making the team we're in it oh okay this

is great we're gonna you know big things are on the horizon quote unquote and then and then someone starts getting goofy and they're testing boundaries because that's what they do right they're pushing up against the boundary and this is another one that they're going to push up against and you're not careful you back yourself right into a corner that you can't get out of. And then, you know, and I think you can appeal to players, you know, to, to understand, you know, how much the team needs you. But this is, this is the challenge now, I think of the modern athlete that has the social media that has the, you know, the, the bank account, like you're talking about, it's, it's, it's a big task for a coach to make those decisions in terms of, you know, is this the player that we can live with or live without really?

That's what it comes down to, you know, in terms of that. And I, you know, for me, if, if the behavior was such that it was so detrimental to the team, then yeah, I think at some point you have to, you know, I, I don't, I didn't have a management. I can only imagine in professional football, you've got a board of directors and you've got, you know, people that are saying that's our franchise player. And, you know, but I think at some point, that's where it also is critical for you to make sure you shape that

with your ownership and with your leaders. Because, you know, I think that's something you have philosophically when you go into something, because yeah, at the end of the day, if it's something that's so detrimental to the environment um then i don't think you have another choice but to change that but if it's something that you can get to a middle ground and it can be professional and um make it work i think that's part of it switching gears just a little bit um but i want to kind of put a note on that is that even head coaches even ceos are managing up right there you know like to the board of directors or

to shareholders or to the president or whatever it might be um managing is you know it's not just like oh once you're at the top of a food chain that you're stopped, you stop it. It's so far from the truth. But that being said, I want to flip over to Coach Val Kondos, one of your friends. And so I was asking her about you. And, you know, I asked her for a question to ask you. And she came up with, you know, if you ever got back into coaching soccer, what level would you be inspired to coach? Gosh, I'd like to honestly say any level, but, you know, I think a little bit when you, when you get, I don't want to say taste that nectar, but when you get to work with that high level functioning, committed, you know, like, I mean, the players are amazing. That I think is, that would be hard. And I'm not saying I would look at the, you know,

the US team, but that level, that international, I still find that exhilarating in terms of the level of coaching. But, you know, having said that, I think I did enjoy college coaching. You know, it was kind of where I got my start and you know, you can certainly have a different type of framework of relationships. You know, when you're dealing with pros, you're managing contracts and egos and it has a different, a different feel to it. But I think my heart would be there, but I also think college coaching is something that if it was the right fit, yeah, I'd be open to it but um i think my heart would be there but i also think college coaching is

something that if it was the right fit yeah i'd be open to it and when you're thinking about best talent across the planet if you could oversimplify what you think they are afraid of like what is the predominant fear for most of the players you're i'm going to ask you the same question for you in a moment, unless it's the same. Gosh. I think delivering to the expectation. I think there was this team and the culture and the history of this team is they don't want to let people down you know I think that's you know each other down because they're a family fans down uh the little boys and girls so I think that uh and I don't think that's a fear of failure I think it's just managing and meeting the expectation that's that's there I mean a silver medal is not good enough for

this program that's really the unwritten you know narrative that's out there I mean, a silver medal is not good enough for this program. That's really the unwritten narrative that's out there. And it's true. So I think that the players, they want to win everything and be successful. But I think that comes with a lot of pressure on them. And how did you manage the critics? How did you manage other people's opinions of you and other people's opinions of the program? I actually didn't struggle with that because I really, first of all, social media, I'm not on it. You know, I wasn't on it. So I think that in and of itself, and I used to say this, you know, I don't really care to read about someone else's opinion of my team because they have one-tenth of the information and I'm there and I know how well or poorly we're playing.

So I just never put a whole lot of time, effort, or energy and I really didn't. I literally said to my press office, if there's something important I need to know, let me know, because I had no time for it. So, you know, I also believe if people are real, if people have been in leadership positions, they're less likely to pull the crosshairs. You know, I think they have an understanding of what that person's going through. So I didn't listen to that per se. I think the opinions, again, of fans, I just never read anything. I never went on social media and I never went on our website because I think I was absolutely living it. And it's not that you're fearful because you know it's there. So it's not like I don't want to know it's there. Of course I know it's there. But the reality is you have the information you and your

staff and your core group and your inner group have that information i think it is hard when you know when i went through a period with the team where you know even internally you're taking some hits um that is you know that again is something that you have to just have this steeled component inside of you to believe that nothing is going to derail from this course. And it cost me my job. It cost me my job. Were you independently wealthy? Am I? No. Was I? No. Yeah, so I just wanted to be clear. It's not like you had this really big bank account that you had the freedom. It was a freedom of having clarity of integrity, that I am going to approach this the way that I, the only way I can, which is the way that I believe is the right course forward, based on some principles, which is what we've talked about, optimism, caring, detail, preparation, the knowing of what's happening in the room, the meeting rooms and on the pitch and on the, you know, game day practice as well. And, and then course correcting to your best ability. It sounds like that's more of your

approach, which is a high, high integrity, if you will, high standard, high integrity. What is it that you were afraid of? Gosh, people said, you know, how did you handle the pressure? And I think because I had such an understanding of what I was stepping into, there was no surprises. You know, I knew the expectation, the intensity. And again, you sit at that juncture. I mean, this is the conversation I had with my father. You know, I'm sitting there, do I go and do this? And,

you know, the term high risk, high reward, I don't do it for the reward, but you also, you know, that there's, there's a lot, a lot at stake here, but yeah, I just, yeah, I just kind of took that took that jump. I mean, I feel I felt prepared. You know, I have this saying when I was in my tough moments, I'm like, everything I've experienced to this point is prepared me for this moment, you know, it's like, because I just, you know, worked through the fact that I've dealt with certain things. And sure, this is a maybe a bigger platform, but the reality is trust what's inside of you. Trust, you know, what that compass is or that space is that you've dealt with things and you've come through it. And, you know, again, it's, it's not life or death.

So I think that was probably, you know, just this, I didn't really care. I think, you know, one of the things my father said to me, my, my eve of coaching, you are not a coach until you've been fired. So that was the first message when I got into coaching and his point being that you, that's part of the job, that that's part when you're in that position and you're putting it out there and you're trying to do something and winning and losing there is a risk to that but enjoy that and embrace that challenge rather than be fearful of it that's really cool it makes sense to me how you would show up you know and it's easy to say yourself. And I was going to ask you the question and you, you kind of answered it, but I was going to ask you, like, it's easy to say, you know, go out there and trust yourself, kid. And to say to somebody, you know, you just got to trust yourself. It's easy to say, it's less easy to actually fully commit to that trust. And I think what we're talking about, you know, of course, correct me if I'm wrong here or if I'm off, but we're talking about trust that no matter what happens next, you'll figure that out to your best ability too.

And I was, because what I want to ask you is like, how do you help somebody learn how to trust themselves? What, how do you help somebody learn how to trust themselves? What do you need uniquely do? Well, you know, even, you know, I got a 15 year old. But so I think about, you know, how those messages and that passing that along. I don't know if it's and maybe you have some insight to this. I don't know if it's that you minimize what could possibly happen, that it's not life-changing, it's not life-defining, it's not gonna be the end of, I don't know if you minimize that more than you try.

And I go back to this, and this is a lesson I should have said at the very beginning. Even before every single game if i checked in with my parents my mom would say just do your best she would say that before every track meet she would say it before anything in my life just that's all you can do is your best and i think that's so liberating right to have that sense that it really comes down to that it's like i say to coaches sometimes do you really think your players want to kick the ball over the crossbar? Of course they don't. So don't bury them for that moment or get frustrated

or demonstrative. They're not trying to do it. And so I think that's a really good space to live and that's a good place to be as it relates to helping someone to take that risk or trust themselves, you're going to give everything you possibly have because you care. And you will take something away from this, even if it doesn't work. I think you're spot on with that insight, which is people are trying their very best for the most part, you know, and I think we've got three seconds. First of all, if somebody makes a mistake and they look to the bench, I think there's something wrong with the culture. And they should either be running to take themselves off because the culture is that harsh, or they should be gathering themselves to take another shot, you know, to whatever it might be, drop

their hips or stay low again, or, you know, whatever it might be to course correct that. And I think we have about three seconds if they happen to look over at the bench that can, because it's public, our industry is public, that can make or break the relationship. And if the coach is rolling their eyes or dropping the clipboard or throwing their hands up or whatever they're doing, if you publicly embarrass somebody, that's really hard to come back from. That's really hard to do. And so I think there's about three seconds in there. I would agree. Yeah. So what is it that you have, like, just as a, out of all due respect, what have you been through that has really tried you,

that has been incredibly challenging to you to be able to say, I know how to stand on my own two feet? I mean, on a personal level, certainly coming out was a big part of my journey. Olympics when even though you can prepare your shareholders and tell them you know what it is that you're going to basically change things to bring in and when you shape all that and still you know that basically some players wanted to go in a different direction right wanted you out that was that was hard it sucks and I think because, you know, I think a couple of things initially, it was like, I actually was surprised because I had sort of laid it out. And as much as you think you lay it out, it's, you know, yourself, it's not until they're actually in it, that it resonates. And I think the other thing is I feel like I'm

approachable, but I also know the head coach, Monica, sometimes doesn't enable people to come and talk openly with you, but my hope would have been that we could have had a dialogue about these things. And so I think that was, you know, that was an incredibly challenging period because, but in many ways, I understand where the players were, you know, stressed, anxious, playing with a different lineup, their brand is at stake, their victories, the financial component, like there's so many things I understand. My hope had been we could have had a dialogue about it, but I think that was, yeah, that was challenging to deal with in terms of personally just kind of coming to terms with

okay what you've been doing clearly hasn't been communicated isn't seen as what is necessary and then coming through that Who did you rely on? Probably my parents in terms of talking to them, you know,

I have my spouse, you don't want to stress them out. But also my, you know, my, my, my coaches in that environment because, you know, we were all in it together and, you know, it was as much as, you know, we shared everything, you know, obviously it lies at the head coach, but we, they very much felt a part of that and were incredibly supportive. How do you manage vulnerability with your coaches when they're looking to you to be the leader? You're all in it together, but certainly you're the leader of them. And so how do you manage that?

I was just having this conversation with someone the other day. I was offering to be a mentor to someone. I said, because at the end of the day, you can't crack. You know, you're the leader. You have to be that person that you've got to pull yourself through it. And I, so I, I don't think you can be vulnerable to the point where they think this leadership is unstable. You know, I think you have to stay strong and you have to stay resolute. You know, I went through my processes of how I was going to address this and you had their support, but I don't think, I think you have to go outside of that into maybe your personal circle or to really demonstrate vulnerability. I think it's tough to do to your assistant coaches. I think, you know, their livelihood depends on your capacity to keep it together, right? So I think that that's a tough one. And then in a related vein, when you were sorting out whether you were going to share publicly

your private life, and your public life is global, and most people it is not that, but working out how to share publicly the things that are really private um how did you do that it it came incredibly clear that there was someone more important than myself more important than my feelings more important than my ego and that was my daughter and it just it it didn't i mean i came it was like, shot out of a can.

I was telling everybody, you know, so I was, because I just, once it came out, you know, then I think it was just, it didn't for a second. And, you know, I thought about it prior to adopting Lily. I'm like, who, how's this going to work? But then no chance. I got to put that person first and their life first. And so what does that mean? Like you, that meant that you needed to be clear so that she could understand like that there's not two lives? Or like how does that, I'm not completely tracking. Sorry, yeah, that she didn't have to be in the shadows, that she couldn't be around both her moms at the same time, that she couldn't run and call her mommy and her mama, and that life couldn't be that complicated for a two-year-old, you know?

So, yeah, I was just trying to make her path, make her as comfortable as possible in her world. It's amazing, like the clarity that comes when you really work from love and caring of another person, like things get so clear, don't they? So true. Oh, good. Okay. So let me just double click in one area that we haven't talked about youth sport and the specialization at a young age. And so it's an easy narrative to say, oh, you shouldn't specialize. It's harmful. That's an easy narrative. And I'd like to hear your take on it because to become one of the best, oftentimes you need to put in a lot of work. And I'm talking about relentless, nauseatingly focused, deep work. And so one of the advantages of starting early is that you get some of that. There are some lots of costs though. So if parents are listening right now, knowing that you've coached the best in the world on the planet in soccer, how do you want to talk to them about specialization? You know, I go back to my parents, feed their

passion. So here's what I say with that. If you've got a kid and all they want to do is dribble a soccer ball around and you can put a baseball bat there, or you can put a basketball there, and this is what they want to do, then I don't think there's anything wrong with that kid being so in love with what they do there that that's what they want to do from the age of six years old um and i think you see that a lot in a lot of countries where there's not options to play other sports you know in in so i think that's there's nothing wrong with that but if also their passion is to you know go pick up the baseball bat or go play basketball. I think you've got to support that. Because, yeah, we hear all the statistics and the overuse injuries and, you know, these things now

that these kids are getting shoulder injuries at 14 because they've been pitching since they were seven or whatever. But I, so I don't think, I don't think specializing early is the be all end all. Again, I think that, you know, once you start to reach 14, 13, 14, and you start to figure out like, okay, maybe I can't do four things because time doesn't allow me to do four things. Then I think ultimately the sport picks you. That may sound crazy, but I played, I didn't play soccer growing up. When I came over here, I was a really good field hockey player and was recruited in field hockey, but man, I wanted to play soccer. And so that's, I think the, the advice I give them is feed their passion, whatever it is, and allow them to kind of shape this path. Because

listen, what are we talking less than 1% end up in the pros? I mean, it really, you know, it's about their joy and their happiness. And, you know, I think I think probably the more the message I would love to give parents is, man on that car ride home, don't talk about the game, just celebrate them you know because i think that's really really hard even when they're i don't know making mistakes that they are still making and i don't know like you're right on the car ride home it's the one of the reasons one of the main reasons kids leave sport as you know and i'll double click that 70 of kids leave sport by the age of 13 and i don't think it's a specialization

to your point either i think it's the car ride home and it's the professionalization from both coaches and parents like holding the 13 year olds or the 14 or 17 year old to the standard of professionals but they're not you know certainly holding the nine year olds or the 14 or 17 year old to the standard of professionals, but they're not, you know, certainly holding the nine year old to that standard is crazy talk. So, um, how would you coach a 13 year old? And I think you said you have a 15 year old, like, how would you, how do you coach, um, in terms of software? I mean, yeah, I think one of the things, you know, that, uh, yeah, I, I think for, for parents, it's like, that's not your job. You know, you're not the coach.

So, and I actually play for my father. But even then, he was not, you know, it was very much balanced. And it was more if I asked for feedback, you know, it was kind of that model we had set up. But, you know, if I'm coaching 13 and 14 year olds, think about this. To your point, I've seen 13 year old teams and they're trying to run plays that are so over-structured that we talk about, we want athletes that can think and feel the game. And yet we, we have to give them free time and free play time in the training session. But I think it's so monetized now that coaches feel like they have to do all these things and letting them just play is maybe, and I'm not saying, you know, there's a lot of great coaches out there. So if I was coaching a 13 year old, it would make,

be making sure in my program skills are important and this free freedom piece. But in a day I want them to come back. I want them to come back. I want them to value hard work. So they're not coming back because they're coming back because they want to continue to grow in the sport, but they also have fun and they enjoy it and they want to be with their friends. You know, one of the reasons we went to Tottenham in our pre-camp for the women's national team before we went into France was because the environment was conducive

to socialization, you know, because we were in this one area and it was this one space and we could really celebrate and share and be around each other that's important in sport i love it yeah i actually visited tottenham i think it was two years ago and they're i got a beautiful facility she's they have done it right you know in that respect and so um and i love what you say about helping the the child have. You know, here's something that I get frustrated with. You know, my son and I are going to go do something, and then all of a sudden he's got like a lazy kind of attitude about it. He's just like, nah, I don't want to do it. And the effort's really low.

And then my expectations, like I know that's me, it's not him, but, you know, he's like not into it at all. And then I get frustrated. So I want to be a better dad, you know, coach, but we're out there trying to do something. And, and, uh, you know, I find myself going, what am I doing? And so like, how would you course correct me if you watch that? I mean, again, I don't, I think that it's understanding the athlete, right? So even

though it's your son, why is he in that state? You know, did he fail his test before he came out? Did he get in a fight with his, with your wife? Like, you know, like, because, you know, Sue Enquist, the famous softball coach at UCLA, she had this saying, give me 100% of whatever you've got. So if you're 80% today, because you failed a test, you didn't sleep last saying, give me 100% of whatever you've got. So if you're 80% today, because you failed a test, you didn't sleep last night, give me 100% of your 80%. And I love that because, you know, your son, yeah, he might not be into it. There might be a reason behind it. And just go through it because he's still going to have takeaways from it. That's cool. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, Sue was on the podcast, too. She's as well. That's a great reminder, which is give me 80% 100% of your 80%, you know, or if you're

at 50%, 100% of that. It's a great reminder. You know, yeah, very cool. Listen, I want to be mindful of your time. What a treat. I could talk to you for a lot of hours about your philosophy and your approach. And I'm honored that you have spent the time to share. And so if there's one little insight gem that you would hope people could do in their own life to be better themselves, what would you hope they start doing or double down because they're already doing? Gosh, what a broad and great question. You know, one of the things that my assistant and I would talk about with the senior team, with the women's team is, and I know it's been said a lot, but let's get one day better. You know, like that was something that sometimes, you know, even if we couldn't go out in the field field because let's say there was a lightning storm, let's still make sure we are evolving and progressing.

And maybe it's doing a classroom session or it's, you know. So I think I would say take that opportunity to be one day better. Awesome. Okay. And then I've got one more kind of challenging one and then we'll get to an easy one, which is if you could sit down with one person who's a true master, who would that person be? And what would you want to ask them if you only had one question? Gosh. Oh, forcing functions here. If I could sit down with one master. I would probably like to sit down.

Gosh, I consider a master. This is going to maybe sound kind of strange. Tina Turner is an absolute hero of mine. This woman has, and I think, you know, you kind of have a soft spot for someone that's overcome so much. I think she's brilliant. I've been a fan of hers for, for decades in my life. She's been an inspiration. I don't think a lot of people realize that. And I think she's genius. Um, the, the question, gosh, the question, where did that voice come from? Where did that voice come from?

Because it's more than just vocal cords and a sound, you know. That's cool. That's really cool. Okay, brilliant. I would not have expected that for you. No. No. And, you know, like when I think about models and role models, you didn't have many role models that were female coaches in elite sport.

So how did you how did you do that? How did you look for not the inspiration, but how did you manage that gap between, oh, I see those types of people that look like me doing the jobs that I want to do and I can kind of relate because our history is similar. Like, how did you do that? How'd you leap that gap? Yeah, I mean, because I think, you know, there were a couple of female coaches, you know, one of which I was fortunate to work with. But you're right, there wasn't this, you know, this plethora of, you know, professional coaches or female college coaches. And so you naturally kind of gravitate to well established male coaches, you know, so this team I supported in England, Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson,

I would read what, you know, he was doing. And I think that you're trying to get things from those coaches but i think what i learned in that process even when i um was was looking at a female role model i gotta be me you know like i i just couldn't it wasn't a natural fit to try and be someone or something else you had to grow into who you. So it was just kind of push on through in terms of what you wanted to do. You didn't think or visualize you'd coach a national team or didn't visualize you'd coach a pro team like the men could. But I think it's just, you know, can I just figure out who I'm going to be as a coach and own that?

Because I did, I tried to take some certain things from coaches and, and kind of adapt them or look at them, their philosophy. And that's, that's, it's a slippery path. It is, I think you can't be something that's not internal or some of your experiences. Oh, I love it. The, the, the, the value of self-discovery, you know, and it's not saying, oh, I want to be like her or I want to be like him. It's like, oh, that's, that looks good. That's interesting. Oh, definitely not that. But then creating something deeper from this junkyard, um, compilation of ideas, you know, and making it yours, which is your personal philosophy, right? Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's a path worth living. So listen, I

thank you. This is rad. Your friends have talked about you and shared, you know, about you from, from multiple points of view, whether it's the coaches that you mentioned or the athletes that, that we've been fortunate enough to, I spent spent a little bit time on the podcast and you spent years with so i just want to say thank you for um the shared insights and the and the gems that you leave us with so where can folks find you if they uh if they were so you know well i just just recently got on instagram so i'm on instagram and doing some speaking for the washington speakers bureau but i'm actually right now i'm involved with u.s soccer in I just recently got on Instagram. So I'm on Instagram and doing some speaking for the Washington Speakers Bureau. But actually right now I'm involved with U.S. soccer in raising money for coaches, for female coaches.

So we're trying to eradicate some barriers that are holding us back. I'm tired of hearing there are no female coaches or our numbers are declining. So I'm trying to work towards that to help fund the coaching licenses so they don't have to pay for them. One of my friends, Brett Walker, who you might recognize as a sports psychologist on the East Coast. And so he shared, I guess you came out to his university and spoke and he was like, you've got to get Jill. You've got to get Jill. Coach Ellis on the pod. So just a shout out to Brent. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you.

All right. So thank you. Awesome. I love it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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