Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Process: Assessing the Founder/Company Fit (Ep. 5)

Episode Date: September 7, 2018

After taking a break for summer, “The Process” is back! Alex and Mike discuss the latest with Kairos: how their recent investments have fared and what’s in store for their upcoming K50 event in late November.The K50 program is a global recognition of the 50 most-innovative startups from around the world, with young founders tackling global challenges. Companies are awarded at the top of the World Trade Center in front of 100 of the most influential CEOs, investors, media, and leaders of today. Alex then invites on Michael Wong, founder of Homevest, a company they are considering investing in.Alex wants Mike to get a chance to meet a founder pre-investment and assess whether he has what it takes to execute on his ambitious vision.Homevest is a service helping homebuyers purchase their first home by contributing to the down payment. They don’t lend money - instead they invest with you in a new home, sharing ownership, the mortgage and expenses proportionately. Homevest creates a halfway point between buying and renting. Partnering with Homevest means you just pay what you can afford for the down payment, and buy part of a home first, instead of waiting and saving for years. Homevest buys the other part of the home and rents it back to you. As a co-investor, you can repurchase home equity at any point, and you alone control when to sell._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. All right, welcome to the process. Alex, how are you? I'm good. What's up, man? How are you? Yeah, great to hear your voice. Likewise. What's been going on for you this summer? Oh, there's been a lot. I've been ripping and running as usual. We're just gearing up right

now for the NFL season to start. We're just absolutely head down on the business that Coach and I are building. It's going great. And the gems and pearls of wisdom that you've shared through this mini-series, the process has been fantastic for us. So just in advance, I want to say thank you for the time you spent on pulling back the curtain and talking shop about entrepreneurship and what it takes to build a company. So thank you. Of course, man, we've had a blast. We, uh, we're entering a really fun, busy time of the year for us. So, uh, you know, I'm excited to tell you about what's ahead because we're going to be able to start applying a lot of the principles we've discussed, uh, in real time. Good. Bring me up to speed. What's good, man. Uh, I got married in June. So that was a huge life milestone.

And then since then, it's been a very active summer. We've made a few investments and we're deep in the process of evaluating a few others. And then if you recall from the first podcast, we run something annually called the Kairos 50, which is our annual showcase of 50 of the most promising up-and-coming pre-seed companies solving interesting problems. And the selection and the big showcase is actually right around the corner. We're at the end of the selection process. The big showcase is November 28th.

So it's essentially our version of the scouting combine. So I'm sure you could relate to that. It's a ton of awesome ideas and people and opportunities. And now we're starting to figure out where we can really double down with our time and money. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a game-changing idea. That concept, to me, was brand new.

I'd never heard about it before. I don't know if it's common practice in your industry, but I love it. And yeah, that thought has never left, for sure. Yeah, look, I think what's different about the way we do it is, you know, there's a lot of programs and accelerators and incubators, and they'll, you know, charge people to participate. Extra equity. You know, for us, it's really just about showcasing the best of the best, so it's free, and we also offer people money

just for participating, a 50K investment. And then obviously the goal is to figure out if we could do something much bigger together. So it's a platform for us to just showcase and support the greatest founders who are aligned with our mission of what we call problems worth solving, but also it's a way for us to, to find the people we could really, you know, build a company together with. Very cool. Very cool. So to bring me into like what phase you're

in now. So it's like the final rounds of who's going to be selected into the K-50. Is that where you are now? Exactly. So we select on a rolling basis. We've selected about 25 of the 50. So there's still 25 spots left. And in parallel, you also have schools starting up. So all of our university hubs are getting extremely active. So there's just a ton of energy and new ideas and new referrals entering the funnel.

So it's a really fun time. But it's also our single busiest time of the year because we're still running the fund, but we're also kicking off all of the programs that we have for younger entrepreneurs. Okay, so if listeners right now have an idea, they have a product in place and they're looking to get to that next round

of accelerating their business growth, like what could they do? What could they do to get on your radar, potentially be one of the 25 left out of the K-50? Yeah, I mean, we could honestly put referrals directly in the tribe community group. The criteria for the Kairos 50, you have to have a product or prototype. You have to have some proof of outside capital raised, whether it's a grant, an award you won, friends and family, but some sort of proof that others have started to put their money where their mouth is. And it needs to be addressing what we consider a problem

worth solving, which by our definition means something that makes life easier, more accessible, and more affordable for the everyday consumer. Come on, Finding Mastery folks. Let's go. Let's get in. Yeah, like we got time. Yeah, no, seriously, let's go. I'd love to see that.

I'd love, I would flat out be like backflips, if I could do a backflip still, to be able to get like somebody from our tribe that's got an extraordinary idea and all the ambition and they've got a product already established, MVP, hopefully, right? A minimally viable product. Something in place where you guys go, ooh, look at that. Come on. Here's the problem, Mike. We want your help picking from the back who the best is so you might have some biases towards the tribe. We've got to be careful of that.

Oh, no. There's no biases. The best love is the most accurate and honest information shared between two people. And yes, you would get that from me. Amazing. So we have that going on, which is, you know, kind of something we do on an annual basis. But then, you know, we're continuing to, you know, run investments and support the companies out of the core fund. And, you know, it's an interesting time because we're starting to really see some of these companies start to mature and really carve out a foothold in the market.

As an example, I talked to you about Rhino at one point, right? The company that essentially eliminates security deposits. So in New York now, we have returned $6 million in security deposits to consumers, you know, money back in people's pockets. You know, we're in tens of thousands of units now. We have even got the government to propose a bill that would essentially mandate that landlords offer an alternative to a security deposit. Not that they can't offer a security deposit, but that they at least offer an alternative.

Because even the government was bought in. We said, look, in the U.S. there's $46 billion locked up in deposits. No one can touch it. Can we put that cash back in consumers' pockets and replace it with an alternative? So we have a government bill on the table. We have the company just approved to expand to California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts. We have them in units being used. We put money back in people's pockets. So, you know, it's really exciting because we could start to directly translate the impact of our time and capital on the growth of the business. So it's an exciting time.

We just got to keep dropping our head and keep, you know, we need more stories and examples like this. That is rad. Like, I mean, this is like one of the gems of why I love the industry that I'm in is to be able to see and be part of that process of where people have an idea that they can do something, that something is possible beyond what they can do alone. And, you know, like nice job supporting and nurturing and funding this company that's doing something early days. It sounds right on the money.

That's really cool. I feel like we appreciate it. I mean, the people talk a lot about the term impact investing. I think what's cool in this case is like if that number goes from, hey, we've returned 6 million in deposits to, you to $600 million in deposits, we'll be winning, the company will be winning, consumers will be winning. Everyone's incentives are aligned, right? So you don't have to separate the profitability from the impact of the company,

assuming consumers really want this and landlords really want this. And early signs are that they do. So it's definitely a step forward, but still more work to do. Cool. How about the other companies? Look, everyone, we're at a time where we're two years into the start of the fund. So we're lucky right now. No failures. Everyone's still alive and kicking. I mean, I talked to you about our home care business that's doing home care for the aging population in the UK. They're now gearing up to expand from London into Manchester in Germany. They raised a big series, a financing round to fund that growth. We're seeing little victories. But a lot of these guys, it's a make or break window um so so look at that high

level you know i i think our focus on investing in companies that are going directly to consumer has been effective because you know by the time we're putting you know capital and time in you know there's early signs that people actually want this right so i feel good that our companies are solving real needs. I think the question now is just scale. Can they really reach a venture scale and solve the problem at a national or global scale? There you go. Nice work.

So far, so good. And look, to kind of segue, I think I've started bringing on different entrepreneurs to cover different topics. You met someone who's in the growth stage. You met Tim. You met Andres and Bruno who are building a business internationally. They're making a ton of progress. They've delivered over 800,000 rides already.

So I think I wanted to give you some perspective into how entrepreneurs who are well on their way are wired. And now, this has always been the goal, but we want to start involving you more in the actual process of picking who we're really going to work with. And that's both our time, our resources, and our capital. So I wanted to bring on a company that I thought really is a potential breakthrough. It's one of the biggest, most ambitious visions we've seen. And I wanted you to have a chance to get to know the founder while we're actually in the middle of the investment process. So get to know him is a kind of dangerous term for somebody that really asks hard questions. Tell me exactly what you're looking for here.

Look, I'll tell you a bit about the company and about Michael. If you look at one of our biggest focus areas has been the cost of housing and just the general housing space. As we've dove into that space, one of the craziest things we've learned is just how little money the average American has saved right now. It's really, it's horrifying, it's staggering. And we feel like if we don't start to focus on affordability as a key consumer value prop, we are headed towards a crisis, right? The one, the stat we've heard, we've heard different variations of it, but the gist of it is over 50% of Americans can't afford a $800 emergency spending shock. It could be a speeding ticket, a medical bill, but that could send them into a financial spiral. Say that number again.

Say that again. Over 50% of Americans. $800? Yes, correct. Yeah, boy. Which is crazy. And I think there's a variety of factors causing it. There's student debt.

There's credit card debt. There's more rigid rules around how you can own homes. There's different factors that contributed to it. But that is the reality and status quo today. So, you know, what Michael is and Michael, the founder bringing on and his company HomeVest are looking at is, you know, for tons of people who are interested in owning homes, they can't even afford, you know, the down payment. Like the biggest thing boxing the amount of owning is their lack of savings and inability to form the down payment. So, you know, they keep spending money on rent, and that money is sunk.

They don't get any ownership value for it. So the question he asked is, can we create a gateway between renting and owning in a way that doesn't put a ton of risk on the consumer, that doesn't saddle them with debt? So HomeVest's mission is to create an entry point where you start to build equity in your home and eventually the housing market in general as you rent. Wait, so when you rent, you build some sort of credit towards either that home if the owner is participating in this project or homes in general that you might buy later? So Homevest is coming in as a homeowner.

They're partnering with REITs to actually become a platform to buy these homes at scale and then essentially co-own them with the renter. I'll let Michael explain some of the details to you, but you could almost think of it like the equivalent of you fly Delta, you get Delta miles, you rent with HomeVest, you get HomeVest points. So from day one, as you enter the rental market, you know, you're incentivized to rent with them because you're earning, you know, credit towards future equity ownership. It's a crazy concept, right? It's one of the highest ceilings of anything we've ever seen. And I think, you know, part of the reason why I think it's fun to bring you on at this stage is, you know, this is one of the most ambitious things we've ever heard. And, you know, Michael has a mountain to climb, but, you know, he has

a really interesting background. You know, you talk about like founder market fit, you know, makes sense why he's doing this. So when I say get to know him, you know, what I'm really saying is, you know, I hope you walk away with our same belief that he's the right guy to go after this problem because we, we really love him. Um, we love the, the, what can happen to the world if they're successful. Uh, so this is the type of thing where we, you know, we want to, we want to make a big bet on and spend our time on and resources and put capital into. Um, but you know, I wanted to get you involved a little earlier than, uh, than we normally would with the goal of getting you more involved in this Kairos 50 process down the road.

Put me in, coach. Let's go. This will be great. Yeah, this will be fun. All right, Mike. I think we have Michael on the line. So I'll leave you two to meet and I'll get out of the way. Michael, you here?

Yep. How's it going, man? I'll be here listening, but you're with Mike now. Yeah. Cool. Great to meet you. And Alex had brought me up to speed about the concept that you have created and that you've been running after. So congratulations on a beautiful idea. Thank you. Where did the idea come from? You know, I started in 2006 in New York after I graduated college working at a bank. And somewhere sort of like midway through my career in 2011, 2012, I think,

you know, most of my friends and I were, you know, had spent a lot of money in rent and, you know, all of us were pretty interested in real estate, but none of us really could get any more close to buying our own places. And so we kind of took it upon ourselves that we wanted to try to get some exposure, even though we didn't have enough money to buy our own places. So three of us ended up buying an apartment together. And sort of being structured investment nerds or whatever, you know, by career, we tried to, you know, make it as fair as possible for the three of us. So, you know, we decided we'd split the down payment one third each. We'd split the mortgage payments and the taxes, the insurance, et cetera, one third each. it out to like a third party um one of the guys um my friend anthony decided that he actually wanted to live in the place and um you know having graduated five or six years later i think he

wanted to live in the place on his own and not with us as roommates because i think his his now wife at the time probably didn't want us to uh drink beer and play video games all night long, which is what we used to do. And so we kind of figured out the fair thing for Anthony to do would be to sort of reimburse us as passive investors in his apartment, you know, one third of whatever a two bedroom in the East Village rents for. And so what he ended up paying was effectively a third of a mortgage payment and two thirds of a rental payment, which sort of reflected that he was effectively a third of a mortgage payment and two-thirds of a rental payment, which sort of reflected that he was a one-third owner and a two-thirds renter. And we thought, you know, this was a fair thing for us to do. And so, you know, a couple years later, you know, when I was thinking of sort of post-investment banking career,

things I wanted to work on, you know, we sort of analyzed this transaction with Anthony in a little more detail. And I think a couple of things were really interesting to me. First, you know, Anthony was able to participate and, you know, we got a little bit lucky in that, you know, in 2011, 2012, you know, the New York home price market went, you know, did quite well, but he was able to participate, you know, at least in one third of, you know, the appreciation of a property in New York, before he was ever able to really buy a place on his own. And so, you know, we gave, effectively, you know, we gave Anthony access to homeownership before he was otherwise able to get there. And then, you know, so when we analyzed what I did as an investor, you know,

I wrote a third of the down payment check, I got a third of the expenses, I got a third of market rent, everything that I got from this transaction, you know, looks exactly the same as a regular, you know, a regular rental property that, you know, something that my parents might own or something like that. And so it's really a cash flow stream that, you know, I think most people understand and realize is fair. And I think that's the part that was really interesting to me. And that like, you know, Anthony's one of my best friends, but like the only things we really negotiated, which is nothing is the only moving parts were the concept of what we bought the home for the purchase price and rent. And those are sort of numbers that were pretty obvious. You know, the market told us what we bought the home for, the purchase price, and rent. And those are sort of numbers that were pretty obvious. You know, the market told us what we need to pay to buy the

home. And the market told us what, you know, a two bedroom in that building rents for. And so there was no negotiation between me and, you know, our other partner and Anthony to know that deal was fair. So, you know, from the investor perspective, you know, another thing was really interesting. And it turns out that because, you know, Anthony committed to live there sort of on a long term basis, we were able to sort of get rid of traditional risks of rental investments. You know, at the end of one year, we didn't have to, you know, repaint the place. And when Anthony left, we didn't have to pay a property manager. We didn't have to sit vacant for a month while we were looking for another tenant. So from a risk perspective, we were able to collapse,

you know, traditional vacancy risk and the traditional need to pay a lot of the fees associated with property management. So, you know, reverse back to building the business, we got quite excited that, you know, can we build this product or platform and provide Anthony's of the world, you know, can we build this product or platform and provide Anthony's of the world, you know, access to home ownership before they otherwise would have been able to, to, you know, buy their first homes while at the same time providing investors fair returns, but with lower risk and, and, uh, lower costs. Um, and so, you know, we set out to build it. Sorry, that was long-winded. Okay. No, that's, that backstory is really important.

So fairness is important to you. And so is that right? That's, that's definitely right. So that's, that's one of your core values, if you will. Fairness. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

And then, so tell me, bring me into the three months before you left investment banking. What was going on there? So three months before I left the bank, I was writing an oil trading book and negotiating with my wife what life would be like outside of the corporate world. And why did you want to leave or explore outside the corporate world? What was underneath that thought? I think I've always wanted to build a business. You know, when I was in high school, my high school best friend and I, we started a computer business.

His name was Brian. And so we, Wong actually, we had the same last name. And we decided to aptly name our computer Brian and Michael Wong Computing and we shortened it to BMW Computing. And then we got sued we were applying a lot of interesting structures to sort of make fair deals with our partners, but at sort of a corporate level and institutional investor level. And I think, you know, what got me excited as my career passed, uh, my career went along was if I could apply those same types of skills and, and, and sort of structuring ability to create products that help consumers. So I think it's a blend of always wanting to build a business and with a desire to take the skills that I sort of acquired in the sort of institutional investment world

to products that we can build for consumers. Okay, so when you're in a state, whether it's a couple weeks or a couple couple of minutes or a couple of months. But when you're in a state where your current condition is not what you want, because you want it to be different, you want something to change, right? You want to go from corporate to potentially entrepreneurship. How do you deal with that dissonance, with that discord between what's happening now and what you know or want to happen

is it is it a frustrating process is it an anxious process are you more contemplative like what is your way of dealing with that discord wow it really sounds like all of the above because when you name those emotions, I can remember feeling all of them. I think it was, I had the luxury of having a wife and partner in my life that I can bounce those ideas off of, you know, where do I picture myself in 10 years? And, you know, what did the two, you know, what did the different paths look like? And, you know, what generates more happiness to us or fulfillment, et cetera. I think I like to think things out quite logically. And so we sort of plotted the different paths and looked at the outcomes and sort of weighed the risk and the rewards of the different pieces. And I think

that's probably what gets me over the hump and comfortable. Okay. So when you feel things, you talk things out. So you're an extroverted problem solver. That sounds correct. Correct. And then when you do external problem solving, do you have a sense of like the best sounding boards for you? Are there people that fire back to you and say, Michael, come on? Or are they like, why are you thinking that? Or are they softer? And they're like, okay, I hear you. But what is the right process for you and the type of temperament and persons that you

find value in bouncing ideas off as an extroverted thinker? Because there's a cost to that too. You can say some stupid stuff to some stupid people and then the whole idea is, you know, sunk, you know, like, and when I say stupid and stupid, I don't mean it to be that aggressive, but that is actually two of the ways that things fail, right? You say things that you don't really mean or haven't thought through. And then on the other side, you've got someone giving you really unsound advice or bouncing back in ways that are unhealthy. And so long way of me saying, do you know the right structure for you to extrovert and think aloud? You know, it's something I actually was probably always ingrained in me, but like it was really emphasized in sort of the culture of a trading floor at a bank. And that when I think about the partners in the business that I worked with,

we kind of argued with each other all day long. And we were willing to sort of flip-flop on sort of our viewpoints. And we kind of tried to get to the right answer. And so it was really a culture of poking holes in everyone's theory until we tried to get to the right answer in the end. And so that's definitely the way that I think. And so there are definitely a few people in my life that I bounce far too many ideas off of who are more than happy to argue all day long with me. That's the way I sort of iterate to try to, like, I, you know, I almost start with something outlandish with um, with the

goal of ending up at something that makes sense. So when we think about founders, there's true believers, there's people that are extraordinary at dreaming and creating visions. And oftentimes founders struggle into the next phase, right? And the next phase is building the support mechanisms and the relationships and the systems and structures that are going to allow for nimble pivoting as well as a durable, sturdy framework. So where are you in those two different frameworks, founder know, CEO, accelerated business stuff? I would say in the current stage of our business, definitely founder stuff. You know, we are, there are a lot of problems and limited resources and everyone is working on everything. And so, you know, there's certain things that are inefficient, but I think, you know, we're

weighing the time spent to make certain processes efficient versus spending less time and making quick tests. What keeps you up at night? Wow. That's a really good question because I've been sort been asking myself that quite frequently i i think there are there are a lot of moving parts in you know in building a starting a startup which is quite different from you know working at a large institution where you know you have a lot of support functions and a lot of people to think of the you know different pieces but i think the short answer is what what keeps me up at night is you know thinking of a new part of a new moving, so a new insight, one of the multiple moving parts of our businesses,

and then finding other new insights with other moving parts of our business and this sort of rotating mass of information. Oh, so you're what we call a gamma junkie. So there's a brainwave signature, if you will, of gamma waves when people have an insight. And it's a really wonderful internal experience when you unlock or uncover or put varied ideas together and there's an aha experience. and so is that is that part of what's really driving you is the thrill of unlocking things that don't seem to stitch together well that sounds very accurate i like to tinker and i like to i really like to learn new things and i get super excited when those and that keeps you up at night tell me more yeah that keeps me up and i honestly i think it's because right like it's almost a sensory overload you know we're working

on on marketing working on financial structures legal structures working on you know product and technology and you know whereas before i had sort of one core function that i was uh specializing in that would you know i would have lots of thoughts about that one core function what keeps keeps me up at night is like, maybe I'll have an insight like, oh, this is a really cool product and tech idea. And then I'll be like, okay, ready to go to sleep. And then, you know, 30 seconds later, like, I didn't think about that really cool legal structure that might be able to do something for, you know, for our other customers in another way. Or, you know, I think the rotation through the different types of the menu has expanded which i think is uh kept me up a little bit more at night and then on that note of sleep what type of

recovery are you getting i need a lot of sleep i think if i'm pretty grumpy if i don't get seven and a half to eight hours of sleep. So while I'm saying it keeps me up at night, I think I still sleep pretty well. You still get those seven to eight hours in on a regular basis? I try, yeah. Okay, cool. Okay, Michael, in general, you've had a life to this point already. What are some of the important things for me to better understand you? What are some of the watershed events that have happened in your life?

Sure. I think the core is that I really like, I really love to solve practical problems. Like when I was in high school, I was like a computer science nerd that competed in, you know, competed in a bunch of contests. And I thought that was really fun because we were solving problems. When I went to college, you know, computer science became a little bit more about, you know, math proofs and a little bit more theoretical, which is sort of what pivoted me towards economics because it was more, you know, applying sort of math and applying these sort of technical skills to something that I could see and look and feel. I really like building things that I think solve problems that I can understand.

That's how I looked at being a structured investments guy at an investment bank. It's like, what are we looking to solve that makes the product better? And how do I think of new, fun, maybe fun for me, innovative solutions to these problems? And I think that's probably what gets me excited about working on HomeVest, is that I think I'm applying these problem-solving sort of structured investment sort of techniques to sort of solve a problem that I see many or most or substantially all of my friends seeing or facing. And so that, you know, I think that is something important to understand. Okay. So I'm looking, great answer. And I'm also looking for something like quick hits,

like what income structure did your family, did you grow up in? My parents are from outside of Hong Kong and they, my, uh, a wealthy British dude paid for my dad to move to Canada. I'm Canadian, which is why I'm so nice to, uh, to, to study, uh, university in Canada. I'm Canadian, which is why I'm so nice to study university in Canada. So they kind of moved over. My mother applied for this points-based immigration system and became a secretary in the city of Toronto. I guess by the time I was growing up, my dad was an engineer, a nuclear engineer. My mother was eventually the city clerk of Toronto. So they were doing better, obviously, than when they came to Canada.

Okay, so successful, super successful. Yeah. Yeah, okay. And then is that middle class? Is that upper middle class? Is it lower upper class? I'm just trying to get a sense of what it was like for you growing up. I felt like I was in the upper middle class.

And the reason I'm hesitant is that since I moved to the United States, I would not now consider that the upper middle class. But growing up, I felt like my family had resources for me to learn, me to play sports. I got to play rugby. I got to ski, I got to go on school trips, and that felt like a luxury. Rugby and skiing. Yeah. Okay, and so you had choices, right? It wasn't like you had a restriction in resources. Well, I also was forced to play the piano.

So there was, yeah. Okay. All right. Choice. Yeah. No, that's not really, not necessarily for young kids, most young kids. Okay. So in that theme, what was the guiding mantra or what were the main ideas that you learned growing up? If you work hard, you will succeed and don't fail.

Oh, so tell me about that. Okay. So when you said, if you work hard, you will succeed, you sounded like you were asking a question. Was that a statement? Like if you work hard, you will succeed. Yes. Okay. And then don't fail. What does that mean? It means I was terrified to bring a bad grade home. Because what would happen? I would be, my parents would be very, very disappointed in me. Okay. And then, and then how do you carry that thought into your professional life? It probably means there's a large fear of failure and a willingness. Yeah, both of us, Mr. Captain Obvious. Yeah. So there's a large fear of failure. Now, what does that sound like in your head? And then what is your strategy to work with that?

Basically, in terms of building a business or running a training book or making investments, just make sure we understand all the risks and the rewards. Do the right amount of work required and then make the right bet. And the right bet can be wrong, but it can be one that we would make

over and over and over again because based on full diligence of the amount of stuff that we need to do we know that we're setting ourselves up you know you know to succeed very little in this world is binaries and i but i like to ask polarizing questions um or structure questions in a polarizing way just to see where people take their response. But if the fear of failure is a guiding thought, you know, from an early age, and what tends to happen is that there's at least two ways that people work with that thought. One is they don't want to let others down and or they end up spending a lot of time preparing. And or, if you want to get into a third one, there's a couple more,

they overanalyze and overthink because they don't want to make a mistake. So paralysis by analysis, right? So those are at least three strategies of people that don't want to fail. Play it safe and small is one through analyzing, overanalyzing, and the other two for sure. Where do you fall in some of those? You might say, no, I don't fall in any of those. I've got something else that gets in my way about this. I see it as a great accelerant to my decision making. I identify a little bit with all of them, but I would say that in terms of my corruption on this, that perhaps some of this is trained out of me.

Because objectively, more than fear of failure, I think I'm a quite rational, logical thinker. And I can tell myself, I don't take risks. It also doesn't make sense to do nothing. And so, uh, you know, being forced to make lots of decisions and make lots of bets in my career has like kind of allowed me to sort of adjust for that fear of failure. Fear of failure, I think to me just means don't be lazy and do all your work that's necessary, but continue to push forward and continue to make bets. There you go. Okay. so where does pressure come from? Pressure comes from...

That's kind of interesting. You know, pressure comes from myself. I really want to build an amazing product that solves problems. I'll be very unfulfilled if I, you know, sort of do a half job of it and end up with, you know, mediocrity. That's due to my own doing. It's funny because that is one of the great fears for many people is that it's not that

we're going to blow it. It's that we're not going to live up to what we could be and what we could do. So it sounds like you're pretty well tapped into that thought. And then do you have a clarity? Do you have clarity on what you're most hungry for? It's going to be really trite, but I'm going to say something like happiness and being fulfilled. How close are you to that right now? 80% there. What gets in the way? I think I'll always be 80% there. That's probably how I'm wired. Oh, God. No, you can have 85. You can have 90. Okay. Yeah. We can get to 90. Okay. But what's getting in the way of fulfillment slash, I think you said happiness?

I just need to execute. I need to execute. I need to execute on my life. I think that, you know, thanks to my parents and my family, we've laid good groundwork for things. And then there's just more things that I want to accomplish, whether that's with the business, with my family. I feel like I've been granted a great opportunity by my family like looking at what how you know from that from them immigrating to Canada and the work that they put in and like what their childhood looked like versus what my childhood looked like I've been afforded like great chances

and great opportunities you know to go to great schools and get great jobs and learn lots of lots of things without worrying about a lot of things that they worry about. And to execute on that platform would make me very happy. Okay. So if I ask you a couple high, medium, low type questions, like yes, no, high, medium, low, are you more street savvy or analytical? I think I know the answer. Oh?

Let's try. If you had to pick pick one what would be one of your strengths read a room kind of get the vibe yeah right analytical for sure and then are you more detail oriented or like big picture concept stuff big picture concept stuff okay Big picture concept stuff. Okay. And then when you do lock in, do you have trouble zooming back out? Sometimes. Sometimes. And then do you prefer... Not infrequently. Not infrequently.

So you can zoom in, zoom out. I can zoom out, yeah. But you definitely like conceptual thinking. Yes. Yeah, so if you were to get overwhelmed, it would be more narrow focus where you have to read and respond in a maybe social setting or something

that you're not familiar with, like that street-savvy detail orientation stuff. Yeah, I guess so. I would say that I'm not generally overwhelmed um maybe it's like a mechanism yeah tell me more yeah I just think that maybe that's part of training and working on a on a trading desk when you just have a lot of information being thrown at you all the time and you know that you can't you know process all of that information and that you know it's been trained in my mind that you're gonna miss things and that's fine and so um maybe it's been

trained not you know not to be overwhelmed by sensory overload do you prefer a fast-paced environment for learning or slow absolutely fast so yeah so the trading the trading floor was really good training for you there so you like it a little messy little chaotic little fast-paced lots of things going on do you have tvs in the background or something in the background in your office as a matter of fact yes yes of course you do okay and then your need for control is it high, medium, low? Medium. Medium need control.

So when you don't have the proper sense of control in your life, what do you do? Ensure there are checks. Ah, got it. Okay, so you put systems in place. So you're more of a systems thinker in an analytical way. Yeah. Okay. So then that begs the question like what is your relationship with the people you work with well this is similar to your question on you know are

you a founder or are you a ceo type right now right now i feel like we're more in the founder mode there aren't yet systems in place and so there is some you know over control in certain circumstances and under control in certain certain circumstances that you know, over control in certain circumstances and under control in certain circumstances that, you know, make the experience sometimes less comfortable. But, you know, to the extent of stuff that we, you know, work a lot with, you know, we set up controls. Okay. And then fast decisions or slow decisions? Fast decisions. I don't believe you. I think you're a thinker. You think a lot. You think clearly. You like to extrovert your thinking. You want some feedback from other people. You

want to make sure that they're on board with you. I don't see that you're this fast kind of bull by the horns. I'm doing it my way. Bang, bang, bang, bang decisions. You know, I'm going to make a lot of mistakes, but forget about it. We're moving forward. Let's go, people. I don't see that in your temperament. But we just met. You're making a good point. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow. If I'm forced to make fast decisions, I can get over that. I like to think, you know, whether it adds value to be very quick. Like, if you think about a trading floor, you have to make fast decisions. And so you have no choice but to make fast decisions.

And that is something we do. But like certain things, they're very impactful to the extent, you know, it won't hurt the process to think through a lot more. You know, I think that that makes sense to do the proper analysis. What do you like as a founder? Do you prefer to contemplate and think, measure twice, cut once? Or listen, there's lots of wood I'm going to cut a couple times. I would probably say that I skew towards... You know what's funny? It's the pause. The pause says it all, really. As an extroverted thinker and you paused, that tells me that you really actually do internally like think through things yeah so i was gonna do but i adjust you know like i i try to actively try to find the median when i'm you know

doing both of those things have you had your iq tested uh i think so in uh second grade when i was kicked out of second grade uh-huh yeah when I was kicked out of second grade. I wasn't kicked out of second grade, but I was. My parents were called to school and so they sent me to another one. Right, because you have a super clear way of thinking and you're adjusting to really hard questions and you're finding a nice thoughtful middle ground in a lot of stuff well but but not shying away from having a you know position in the questions that i'm asking so you know it's like intelligence basic intelligence or general intelligence is really formed around how quickly can i do something with new information and you're you're doing really well i mean this is. Okay, let's move past that though. Okay. Sure. Are you

intellectually competitive? Somewhat. So if someone says something stupid, what do you do? I argue. And if they say something that's not necessarily stupid, but it's their kind of way of thinking and you don't like it or you see a hole in it what do you do i argue yeah and then are you physically competitive as well i know rugby and a couple other sports but do you have a high physical and high intellectual competitive drive yes you do okay so do you know how to turn it off

no do you compete with like your wife on who can pour the most perfect glass of water? No. No. So you do know how to turn it off sometimes. My wife is not similar. So she, yeah. So maybe I do know how to turn it off because we are not that similar in some, in those ways. Okay. Are you more self-positive or self-critical? Self-critical. And then critical of others as well? Yes.

Good picture you're painting. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm curious of whether it's a picture of like a whole bunch of jumbled circles and lines or it's like it's an arrow or it's a straight line. What have I just done? Yeah. No, you're really painting a picture for me as a systems thinker that really likes a fast-paced environment, has the ability to contemplate, works well in communicating ideas with other people, but you also have this internal process that's jumped out

a few times where you reflect before you actually speak, which so it feels to me like you might be an introvert, which I didn't ask you that question directly, an extroverted thinker, but more of an introverted feeler or introverted analyzer. And I'm concerned in a couple ways. So that's all really strong strengths, right? Systems, organizing, analytical, fast-paced environment to learn, you know, super competitive intellectually, physically is all very good and whatever. And you have a good balance between fast and slow decisions. Okay. My antenna comes up a little bit about the self-critique and the fear of failure. Those two combined ends up looking like hard on

other people as well as so hard on yourself that it can become paralyzing in some situations. So my encouragement for you, not that you asked for it really, but my encouragement for you would be get more comfortable being a little bit sloppy. And I'm not saying, yeah, and you're like, what the hell does that mean? I'm not saying like sloppy in your decision-making, but like sloppy in the standards that are acceptable for other people when they make mistakes. So people are going to make mistakes, the more space and freedom they have to explore mistakes, but not make the same mistake over and over again that I think you find, or at least what I've found in my research and as well as, you know, working in the trenches with some of the most consequential environments is that when people make mistakes in some environments, they die or loved ones die.

However, the freedom for them to focus deeply and not be burdened by worrying about what other people are thinking or worrying about the outcome going wrong is the only way through high consequence environments, you know, that freedom to focus deeply. And so, you know, it's,

it's hard when you're hard on yourself and hard on other people for people to find that space. That's all, that's all I'm saying. And, but I'm not saying you're not a people person. I'm just saying that it makes sense why we would do it that way. That's really interesting.

I've actually like had a, I'm trying to think who I talked about and poked this idea through. But it's interesting to think of your ability to allow your team... The length of the rope at a larger institute... It's easier to have a longer rope at a larger institution than starting a startup.

And that's something that I've thought a lot about in general. If Morgan Stanley makes a bad trade, they make 10,000 trades a day. But if we make a bad trade as a startup, it's significantly more impactful to the business. So it's pretty interesting to think about and trying to craft the team, working with the team around that. Nice. Okay. Very cool, man. So listen, this is a little bit through the grinder, if you will, here. And these are some tough questions. I got one last question for you.

Sure. All right. If you were the last person, the only person, let me say it differently, the only person that is uniquely situated to be the first person to go to Mars, and you had a 50% chance of coming back, 50% chance of surviving, and a 50% chance of dying, right? 50-50 chance there. And that's all the information that you have right now. Would you go? No. And then what if there's another piece of information handed to you that says you're the unique, you're the one to go. You'd be 50-50 chance. And if you go, you potentially could save the world because we need to potentially inhabit uh you know other other planets and you're

the guy i mean i watched armageddon the answer is yes so so you change it for cause but not for any other reason so why did you initially say no because i didn't i i don't see that i don't maybe i don't extract the personal benefit of going. And so. Dude, it's Mars. It is Mars. I agree. But it's also going to take me like several years and then the et cetera. I might die. It doesn't seem like there are other things I would like to do instead.

Yeah, good. Okay. And then so how does that channel into your relationships with family? You know, like, let's say you had children. Do you have kids? I don't know. I do not. So I don't know if you want to have kids or not, but if we can imagine that scenario that you've got, you know, four kids or one kid or whatever. And he asked you that question, Dad, you had the chance to go to Mars. Why didn't you go? What do you say? I thought it was more important to be around and raise you.

And he says, dad, you could have gone to Mars. Honestly, I've been trained by my parents saying no to so many things that I've wanted in my life that like, I'd be like, yo, well, I'm right and you're wrong, son. Yeah, classic. All right, good. So this is fun. Do you have any questions for me? I know this is really interesting. I'd be more curious to see more about, you know, the picture that I have painted. I feel like it could perhaps be a little contradictory as we go along, but it's been a very interesting conversation.

Yeah, no, no, no. There's no real masterpiece picture on the other side, but it's just these are what I would consider some of the important psychological components to people having a nimble and sturdy framework. We want to try to get both of those in place. Something that's super durable and at the same time something that is flexible enough to adjust. having a nimble and sturdy framework. Like we want to try to get both of those in place, something that's super durable and at the same time, something that is flexible enough to adjust. Just like the tallest redwoods or the tallest trees in the world, they've got a nice solid base, but they bow at the top, you know, with weather. And so we want to figure out that right balance. And so, yeah, you've got some, you've got a lot of that sturdy and I'm curious about the flexibility, you know? And so,

but you answer some questions and they're like, yeah, I can do both those. So that's it. Those, those are some of the ways that I think about, you know, the, the framework, if you will, of what helps people be successful in unsettled environments. Yeah, cool. Hey guys, I'm, I'm chiming in. I got to get one thing out of Michael. Um, all the people listening, Michael, what's the single most important levers that a listener could take to help HomeVest? Go to our website, www.homevest.co, or you can shoot us an email or shoot me an email at michael at homevest.co. And if you're a renter and you're looking to you know participate in in the benefits of home ownership you know we would love to talk to you i'll tell you what real quick alex before you

jump in there is that i love your concept like i think that what you're on to is special and that you've got some real capabilities to pull it off so i'm i'm rooting for you i'd love to see you grow some serious legs and sprint across the finish line on this one. So good luck to both you guys. Thank you all. I was very entertained listening on mute. I loved it guys. This was awesome. Okay guys. Yeah. So, um, listeners finding mastery folks, community, go check this out, check out home vest, you know, and watch what they do and, um and watch what Michael creates here along with Alex and Kyra. So congratulations, everyone.

And I'm wishing you guys absolutely the best. Thanks, guys. Thanks. See you soon. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously.

And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those

looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.