Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Psychology of Fighting Cancer | Dr Valter Longo

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

If your body already has powerful systems designed to repair and protect you, are your daily habits helping switch them on... or working against them?Dr. Valter Longo is a professor and director of the Longevity Institute at USC, one of the world’s leading researchers on aging, nutrition, and lifespan, and the author of The Longevity Diet and his latest book, Fasting Cancer. His path into this work is an unusual one. He started as a jazz performance major, chasing rock guitar, and walked away the moment they told him he had to direct a marching band. What pulled him toward aging traces back to being five years old, in the room when his grandfather died, and a question that lodged in him and never left: what if little things can make such a big difference?That question became a career. Longo walks Dr. Michael Gervais through the science of living to 110, a number drawn from two real people he followed personally, and the trade-off at the heart of aging: the body can pour its energy into growth and reproduction, or into protection and repair, but not both at once. From there he challenges one of the loudest narratives in health and performance today, the push for high protein, laying out why he believes most people are eating far more than the research supports, and what a safer balance actually looks like.The conversation moves into the work Longo is best known for: fasting-mimicking diets, why he says fasting on its own doesn’t mean anything, and how cycles of eating less may activate the body’s own repair and regeneration. He and Mike explore what this could mean for cancer, where Longo is careful and precise about what the science does and doesn’t yet show, and they close on what it takes to unlearn a foundational belief when the evidence stops holding up. Mike opens up about how this conversation pushed against a narrative he’d carried his whole life, and why he wanted to have it anyway.In this conversation, we explore:Why aging and cancer are deeply connected, and what that means for preventionThe trade-off between growth and protection that shapes how we ageWhy Longo believes most people eat far too much proteinWhat a safer, mostly plant-based protein balance looks likeWhy fasting on its own is a meaningless word, and what to do insteadHow fasting-mimicking cycles may trigger the body’s repair and regenerationWhat the science does and doesn’t yet show about food and cancerWhat it takes to unlearn a belief when the evidence stops holding upIf you’ve ever wondered whether your daily choices are quietly helping or hurting the systems meant to keep you well, this conversation offers a science-backed place to start thinking about your health and lifestyle.A note from the team: This episode doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Over the last several months, Mike has had numerous conversations on health, nutrition with world-renowned experts like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. Jason Fung, and Dr. Tim Spector, among others. These are all rich conversations that at times hold conflicting advice and guidance. We encourage you to listen to all of them, and as always, consult your doctor on what practices are best for you. Health, nutrition, and longevity are all deeply intertwined with living a life of full potential, and we’re committed to having these great conversations with world experts on these subjects. Keep commenting with what’s working in your life, keep passing these onto your friends, and as always keep pushing the frontiers of your own performance!Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors!Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletterDownload Dr. Mike’s Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XDr. Valter Longo’s Books: The Longevity Diet and Fasting CancerSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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All the cancer cells going in one direction, which is, I don't care that you're fasting me. I keep on going. You know, the normal cells say, hey, I care very much about this condition. I'm going to stop. This is really probably the most powerful way to separate all cancer cells from all normal cells. We've seen a lot of people in stage four going to remission. Welcome back or welcome to the findings. Mastery Podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers.

I am your host, Dr. Michael Jerva. A high-performance psychologist named Michael Jerva. Who head coach Mike McDonald and former head coach Pete Carroll brought into work with the Seahawks. Famous for his work with Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of space in the Stratos project. Olympic athletes depend on something more than just training and talent. They have to stay mentally tough. Today's guest is Dr. Walter Longo, Professor and the director of the longevity institute at USC and author of The Longevity Diet and his latest book, Fasting Cancer.

So far, we haven't seen anything that looks as promising as the dietary approach. We don't like to say too much about it because we don't want to give the impression that we know it was our treatment that did that. But certainly we've seen a lot of people going to remission. In this conversation, we explore how small, intentional habits may have a far bigger impact on long-term health than many of us realize. I think you put it together probably looking at maybe 20-year life experience. expectancy difference compared to a Western sedentary lifestyle.

With that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Dr. Walter Longo. Walter, it is great to be here with you today. I really enjoyed your book. Oh, thank you. Fasting cancer. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. And the reason I enjoyed it is because, one, so many people are struggling, whether it's themselves and or their family or an intimate loved one with cancer.

It's one of the leading causes of death in the U.S. And you have presented a very easy to follow an easy understand path to help, I think, reduce cancer, the onset of cancer and actually how to work with it once you have it. Do I have those two premises, correct? Yes, it's correct. So the idea, of course, cancer and aging go together.

And so by treating aging, you're also preventing cancer. And so that's one. And it was important to me to talk about exactly how you did that. What maximizes the aging treatment? And then, two, once you have cancer, most people Google, what else shall I do? So I go to the whatever medical center and I get the treatment. But then what do I do for lifestyle, right? What about nutrition and fasting and exercise and all of that?

So surprisingly, so many cancer patients were coming to us and my foundation here in Los Angeles. and saying, I don't know where to go. So then maybe 10 years ago or so, we started as a foundation to help cancer patients and then think about these integrative interventions. How do you combine? How can you be respectful of the standard of care and at the same time,

integrated solutions that at least have the potential of making the side effects lower and the efficacy of the treatment higher? At this point, are you more interested in the quality of life over time, longevity, health span, lifespan, those ideas. Or are you more interested right now in understanding cancer and the process to help people through that? Well, cancer, I think, is the number two cause of death in the U.S. So clearly, whether it's cancer or cardiovascular disease or diabetes,

if you want to live to 110, you cannot have cancer, right? So you can, but we need to make sure that you don't get it, and if you do get it, you get through it. So, so that's, that. So, that's, That's how cancer fits in, right? So we've never been in a cancer lab first. We've always been thinking about cancer and cardiovascular disease, et cetera, as something that interferes with your ability to get 210 and make it there healthier. Why did you come up with the number 110? Where did that come from?

110 comes from two people that I follow personally. One was Salvatore Caruso in southern Italy. He made it 210 of the oldest man in Europe. and he was in the little village both of my parents come from. So he saw me grow up and he was just a block away from my grandparents and my parents'

house. And the other one was Emma Morano and Emma Morano got to 117 in northern Italy and I followed her for the last five years of her life and she was the oldest Italian who ever lived. And of course it's great to think about 150 years lifespan, but I just felt that Caruso and Morano know where realities and if they made it there, then I think a lot of people can make it there.

It's extremely difficult, but that's it. That's why I saw scientifically and medically a great venture because it's so difficult. It's just almost impossible to make it 110, right? So when you look at the numbers, you're thinking, how can we possibly get this person to get there? But yeah, all the things that we know at work and hopefully you have a chance. Why did you want to study this? What first drew you into studying longevity and, you know, the quality of life? Yeah.

So I was actually a jazz performance major at University of North Texas, which is one of the great schools for jazz, believe it or not. And the second year, beginning of the second year, they told me I had to direct a marching band and I said, there's no way I'm directing the marching band because I was a rock, I was a rock player. I mean, I was studying jazz to play rock. And so as soon as they say that this is not an option, right, this is not an optional, then I said, I want to study the ageing.

So it was in my head. It always been in my head, right? I didn't think about, oh, what should I do? It was like, I'm going to the biochemistry department, and I figured if I combine chemistry and biology, that's going to cover the ground. I said I picked biochemistry and the hardest thing that I can think of. And, yeah, it was always in my mind. One of the things I speculate is that when my father,

grandfather died. So Caruso was only a block away from my grandfather. They were the same age, right? But my grandfather dies 40 years before Caruso, right? And so that to me was just an unbelievable thing because I thought, you know, just little things can make such a big difference, right? But I think I was in the room when he died. And so I thought, just as a five-year-old that probably stayed in my head is a very, you know, central problem in life, right? So I think if you see it, that early, it just affected me. And so I probably, for whatever, 13, 14 years, stayed in my head until I had the opportunity,

instead of studying music, I'm going to go study this thing that maybe is even more important than music. And I'm not, you know, I think music is very important. But just in my head, it was just, you know, I had to study ageing you. Was that born out of trauma? Or was that just an important imprint that happened for you at a young age that,

sparked interest. Was it more out of that or like or more from an inspired state? You know, I don't think it was trauma because it didn't seem to affect me back then, but I think it just, it was a very central, it became from that moment and like, you know, instinctively, I think it became, it can't possibly be anything more important for me to do than figuring out not to die, right? And yeah, so I think it probably is just instinct that forms when you are exposed to it, you actually see the person die. I mean, everybody has grandparents that die, right? But if you're in the room, I think, at least in my case, it hits you in a different way

where you see the reality of life ending, right? And so, so yeah, probably, yeah. When you go back to that moment, and I'll explain in just a moment why I'm asking this set of question, but can you go back to that moment and do you remember the room? Do you remember those elements? Yeah, I remember. everything. I remember the whole family together together. And in fact, I put it in my first book, Alfonso was his name. I almost like was the doctor in the room, right? I was a five-year-old.

So then I say something like, can't you see is already died. So almost like in an early age, I was already thinking about that job, right? You know, that job of being a doctor or being an expert in that field. So I don't know where it came from, but even when I got to UCLA years later, my first two years I spent in the pathology department, right? So, yes, I went to biochemistry, but then I spent, you know, two years in the pathology department. So, yeah, so to me the medical part

was always very important. It wasn't about just science. You know, it was like science to, you know, get people to live to 110, right? So, yeah. Okay. Are you more interested right now in nutrition? Or are you more interested in healthy lifestyle choices?

We've always been interested. in just making people live 210, right? And so however that can be done, right? My first 10 years, all I did was genetics of aging. I didn't even do nutrition. And we discovered probably one of the most important pro-aging pathways called TOR, Syskines, and in simple organisms.

But the study after study of the study was pointing whether we're studying simple organism or mice or humans. It was pointing us to nutrient signaling patterns. Right, meaning that it was all the genes that were controlling aging. So for example, growth hormone, the one genetic mutation that makes a mouse live the longest, right? It's called growth hormone receptor deficiency. With this GHRD, growth hormone receptor deficiency, the mice live 40% longer, but health of the mice never develop any disease, right?

Does the growth hormone receptor deficiency? Does that mean that more growth hormone is circulating in the body? It means that there's more growth hormone circulating in the body, but it's not working. It's almost like you had no growth hormone. In fact, the other mice that have record longevity are the growth hormone deficient mice. Right now, the pituitary is not making growth hormone. And those have almost identical phenotypes, you know, meaning they, whether they're growth hormone deficient or the growth hormone receptor deficient, you get long, longevity,

extreme longevity, and extreme health, right? These mice are surprisingly healthy. You're blow my mind because I remember when human growth hormone was kind of first the thing when I was studying it in grad school. I was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. However, there was one finding, subscript finding that scared me, which was that it grows all cells. But at the time, I remember thinking this is the elixir of youth. And what you're saying right now is when you don't have growth hormone, when the mice don't have growth hormone, they're living longer.

Yeah, so now it used to be growth hormone, and now as the secretagogues, these peptides are now becoming very popular. So it's the same story. So growth hormone is not bad for you temporarily, right? So temporarily it helps you grow and it can even help fix lots of different issues and problems. But if you're thinking about a 110-year life, right, then you have to stay as much as possible in what we call maintenance modes. There are trade-offs in evolution between, you know, the attempt to grow.

and the attempt to protect yourself, right? So you got to pick, right? You cannot grow and reproduce and maximize your protection. You know, you got to do one or the other, right? Because the growth choices are risk and strain and... Require a lot of energy, right?

You have to put all your energy into your offspring. Evolution doesn't care about us, right? We can go, right? As long as our offspring are doing well, evolution has done its job, right? So the force of natural selection is on making sure you reproduce and you could argue, you know, and even Darwin argued,

that maybe if you get out of the way, it's better, right? You know, so live long, not too long and get out of the way. So then if you think about that, the growth hormone, of course, it's got a temporary job. It needs to make you grow, healthy, and reproduce, and get out, right? And that's exactly what happens, right? So it's not surprising that so many people think, wow, look at the short-time effects.

But then, of course, what happens to you 20 years down the road. And, you know, so for example, acromegaly, which is a condition where you have very high levels of growth hormone, people that have acromegaly die early, mice have acromegaly die early with lots of diseases and lots of problems, very early, right? They end up, I think, being like 7 foot 6 and like... Gigantism, yeah. Yeah. So that tells you that, you know, high growth hormone. And in fact, they have IGF1 levels.

So the growth hormone activities measure with insulin like growth factor. which is the result of having high growth hormone. So usually if they have about 300, they get a drug to block the growth hormone receptor or growth hormone release. The medical community already agrees that don't get your IGF1, don't get your growth hormone activity too high

because they cause this problem. But anyways, yeah, there was mice, but then 20 years ago we started following people in Ecuador that have the same mutation, a grotormone receptor deficiency. And sure enough, we published, on them, you know, rarely having cancer, being overweight but not getting diabetes, having cognitive performance more similar to people much younger than they are. And recently, a couple

years ago, we published on cardiovascular. They have less plaques, at least the one we examined, and we went down with cardiologists to determine did they have cardiovascular disease, right? Maybe, because everybody was saying, well, maybe they're protected from cognitive, they're protected from cancer diabetes, maybe they all die of cardiovascular disease. But in fact, they were even protected from at least cardiovascular risk factors. But my point was that growth hormone pathway is in the protein signaling pathway. Not just protein, but proteins have a central role in activating, you know, insulin like growth factor 1, tore, and all the genes that we described as pro-aging, right?

And so I had to move to the nutrition part because it seems like nutrition was the way to control the gene to control the aging process, right? So that's what you did with that finding. You were constantly trying to go upstream to see what had the greatest impact to make the downstream difference that you're looking for. Yeah, so once we saw that we had people, the mice and all kinds of organisms living longer by having deficiency in this pathway, then the obvious thing was like, well, what happens if I manipulate the diet that controls these genes instead of needing drugs?

Of course, we're also working on the drugs. But so far, we haven't seen anything that looks as priming. as the dietary approach. And so, you know, and later I think we're going to talk about the fasting making diets. So then the idea is being, how can I just leave people alone, but intervene instead of GLP 1 and other drugs that are going to do good and bad, intervene with, you know, dietary approaches that are much safer.

Yeah, they're a little bit tougher, right? It's easier to take a pill. But instead of making you now when I eat, they may make you, very much happy to eat, but, you know, keep you healthy and long live. Finding Master is brought to you by Lisa. We are serious about recovery. Sleep sits right at the center of that practice. I have been fortunate to work with some of the most extraordinary performers for the last two decades. And sleep and recovery are foundational, full stop. It's where the body and the brain repairs. And that's why finding a mattress that support your recovery matters so much.

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Go to Lisa.com for 30% off, select mattresses, plus you get an extra $50 off with the promo code mastery, exclusive for our listeners. That's Lisa, L-E-E-E-S-A dot com, and use the promo code mastery for 30% off, select mattresses plus an extra $50 off when you use the code mastery. There's a lot of energy around protein and adequate consumption of protein to build muscle. And one of the unlocks for a second phase or third phase of life, meaning when you're, I don't know, past your 40s or 50s, whatever phase that might be, is that if you go into that phase of life

with adequate muscle, that you are set up better. You are set up better from a metabolic standpoint, from a risk of falling standpoint. And the narration there is that you need to lift heavy weights, You need to work out. You need to have, I don't know, kind of a lot of protein. And your narrative is saying, wait, hold on. I don't think you need nearly as much protein.

So there's a, I know that you're aware of that friction. Can you help me understand, juxtapose to what I just set up, how you are ringing the bell for people to make a decision for longevity? It's good that you ask me that question because I just spent six months writing a review on proteins. I put together a team of like 10 people, hundreds of papers. But the trick was not just reading the papers, right?

The trick was understanding the papers. You have what we'll call it meta-analysis, right? In some meta-analysis, and this is what gets a confusion out there, some of these studies of all studies, right, and maybe having 25, 30 studies, I mean, we'll say something like, we'll conclude something like higher protein intake, if it's from plant-based proteins, is associated with lower mortality, overall mortality,

cancer mortality, etc., etc. And so I think they got distorted by influencers and a lot of people into all you see, even the science is saying, so the field was based on acute effects, right? If you have a lot of proteins and you work out,

you can have a small additional effect than if you just work out, right? Okay. So that was number one issue. Then this meta-analysis from top places came in and showed that. And the headline was higher protein intake. And some journalists, a lot of journalists,

may have gotten rid of the, an influence and may get rid of the plant-based, right? And just say higher-prote. When you dig into it, you see something very different, right? And you see very consistently, the high protein is bad for you, right, if it's animal-based, right? Very consistent, almost like no exception.

And a lot of times you even see that in older individuals, right? Older individuals that have a high protein diet tend to do worse, right? I mean, high in the sense of 1.6, 2 grams per kilogram as we're hearing the influencer recommend. So that's clearly bad for you. The question was, is high plant-based protein also bad for you when this paper indicated that it's not? When you dig into it, you realize they never study high plant-based protein.

they studied groups that had a higher proportion of plant-based protein, but in fact had probably less amino acids compared to the lowest group, right? So anyway, long story short, high protein diet is bad for you, really bad for you. That doesn't mean that you should go down to very low protein diet. You know, you should stay with 0.37 grams per pound or 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight per day as recommended by most medical associations in the world, right? Okay, do that again for pounds. 0.37 grams per pound, right?

So if you're a 100-pound person, that's about 40 grams of protein. If you're a 2. Per day. Per day. Most people in the sport performance world, and like you said, the influencers are saying that's not nearly enough, that it needs to be almost a one-for-one.

If you weigh 100 pounds, you need about 100 grams per day. Yeah, very dangerous, right? Very dangerous. For what reasons? Cancer mortality, overall mortality, cardiovascular mortality, over gain weight, weight gain, right? So high protein short term, you get society and that's what the papers indicate. But then in the long run, and this is Harvard, right,

in nurses and physician study, so in the long run, high animal protein diet is associated with weight gain and diabetes. What about for people that are highly accurate? like athletes or people that are fitness-based? I would say no difference. It's not what I would say, because that's one of the chapters in my review. So we went through it paper by paper,

and met analysis. And I would say the only exception would be for professional athletes, right? For professional athletes, there seems to be a small effect on top of the physical, the training and the exercise. small. So, yeah, so I think for professional athletes, I think each athlete should look into it and say specifically for this discipline, is there an advantage or is there a disadvantage? You know,

my guess in some case, you're going to have disadvantages. But yeah, for specific type of athletes, you know, there could be a small advantage of adding, you know, so there was one paper where, you know, they were looking at the performance, you know, like muscle performance, like, like, I think it was weight lifting or something like that. And so exercise was like 27 and adding high protein to it was plus 2.5, right? So it was either 27 or 29.5. So 27 just with the exercise.

And what is the 27? What's that? It was like improvement in force or I forget now what the measure was. But the point was that most of it came from the training. And yes. So of course, if you are a professional athlete, that extra, you know, 10% is a big deal. But for most people, I would say that it's just going to get you in a danger zone,

not just based on the epidemiological data that I was telling you earlier. Mice, if you look at mice, 100 years of research, the only way to extend the lifespan of a mouse, you know, in a major way or a rat, is to either calorie restrict. So less calorie compared to normal or protein restriction, right? Or methamin or branch. chain amino acid restriction, right? This is the most powerful

and now 100 labs have repeated this experiment over and over and over. Even branch chain amino acid reduction. Branch chain amino acid reduction or methamino acid reduction or protein reduction. This is not most powerful

compared to diet. It's more powerful compared to anything, right? If you look at 100 years of research in mice and rats and longevity and health, not just longevity, cancer, diabetes, neurodegeneration, and lots of issues

in mice and rats. If you look at 100 years, nothing other than calorie restitution. So low protein and low everything else beats protein restitution. You know, you're pushing against a narrative

that I've heard my whole life. So this is why I wanted to have you on. And I didn't think you were going to be this emphatic about it. I read your book. And I read your position about increasing protein

later in life. And I thought, wait, I can't be understanding this correctly. Reduce protein earlier in life to the variance that you just said or the window you just said. And then you're suggesting, again, like I said, to increase it later in life. Yeah, small increase, starts from 0.8 to say 1, right? So that, and even geriatricians seem to agree there. I mean, like, if you look at, you know, good quality, let's say health plant-based, health, animal base,

one gram per kilogram, you know, in elderly, it's perfectly fine, right? No need to go, even in elderly in most studies. Now, you even see in the elderly the high protein intake, higher protein intake being problematic. So, but yeah, I would say that our conclusion is one gram per kilogram. So going up 20% from what I said earlier after age 65, 70. And this should be a biological age, meaning like, you know, on average people in the United States, they gain weight until 65 and they start losing weight, right? And when you lose weight, that's when I think that you can make that 20%.

Not just increase the 20% in protein intake, but also maybe the variety, right, are there. So, for example, legumes have very low levels of metanin and also fairly low levels of brain chain amino acids. So if you have the mostly legume-based protein diet, you might have a problem. And that's why that 20% helps, I think, in general, make sure that people that are not malnutrient. by, you know, having low protein and then having low amino acid type of protein that they consume. You're gonna have a whole lot of people

that are really confused right now. Yeah, it's actually very simple. So think about, say, if you wanna be very, very safe in nourishment, think about 50-50, the best is two to one plant-based, animal based, right? Proteins, right? Okay. So for each protein coming from an animal source to, so for each gram coming from an animal source,

source, two grams coming from a plant-based source. It doesn't matter what it is. Don't worry about it. Keep the variety, right? So with the gooms and seeds and nuts and cereal and, you know, whole grains and all that. And then keep that 0.8 or 0.37 grams total per pound. So if you weigh 100 pounds, 37 grams, 40 grams. I say if you ate 200 pounds, maybe, you know, 70 grams, right? Or something like that.

What are some key foods that you pay attention to that make sure that you get in on a daily, weekly basis. Well, in legumes are maybe third of my protein intake. And then, you know, fish is maybe one-fourth, one-fifth. And then the rest of it is whole grains, nuts, like almonds and walnuts. Yeah, so that's where I get most of my proteins. No red meat, no chicken. No, I eat chicken once a week.

Okay. I eat chicken once a week, yeah. Okay. And it's not necessarily good, but, you know, but it's fairly neutral. If you look at all the epidemiological data, chicken usually doesn't, it comes in the middle. Like, it's neither good for you or bad for you, right?

It seems to be fairly neutral. So if you have a once a week, I always figure I like it, and it's probably good. Having it once a week, it's probably okay, yeah. What is your position on gut health with longevity? The health of every system is key, right? New data is suggesting that you have to worry about the one organ that goes first, right?

The age is the quickest. So now you're starting to have organ-specific clocks, right? You can sort of measure how old is your liver. So if your gut is 20 years older than your chronological age, so if you're 40 by your gut age is 60, you're going to have a problem, right? And you may end up with cholerator cancer or, you know, Crohn's or colitis.

And so I think this idea is very important. It's a new idea because in the aging field, we always thought it's about, you know, your general biological age, but you could be very young and have one organ like the gut that is very old. And you're still going to have a problem, right? And my grandpa, right, so he had gastrointestinal issues. He never took care of it. And eventually, after years and years and years, it turned into cancer.

And so, you know, he could have gotten an operation. And, you know, just as an operation might have given him next to 40 years of life, right? I just wrote an article for an Italian newspaper about, you know, I always like to write about my relatives, and I put my uncle in there, right? And I said, you know, my aunt went to the doctor with the cardiologist with my uncle. And it was for her, right? Then she's a little bit upper conduct. And but at the end of her visit, she was fine. She said, you know, my husband, by the way, you know, his heartbeat, it's very fast. And the doctor, can you take a look at him? and sure enough, you already had a heart attack, and he didn't know, right?

And then he needed a quadruple bypass. And so, hey, it seemed to be very healthy, and it was not. So you got a quadruple bypass, and now 25 years later, he's doing great, right? So, yeah, you know, you could be perfect for everything else. But if your arteries are clogged up or your gut is inflamed, you got a problem, right? And it could be as simple as gluten, you know, think about. a celiac disease, right? Just one, just simple ingredient of one food type

and it's going to make your life miserable, right? So, yeah, and, you know, if you have celiac disease and you don't get rid of gluten, you're going to have a miserable life and lots of problems. We had Dr. Tim Specter on, who has done a bunch of research around gut health, and he is saying something very similar to what you're saying, and his kind of horseshoe approach was 30 different types

of plants per week, a variety of plants. And if you're doing that, you're probably going to have a pretty healthy gut flora. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then let's move into fasting and fasting mimicking diets, which is a new term for me that you introduced.

What do we need to understand about fasting? And is there a difference between genders across the two? First of all, I think if you think about fasting, I always say that it doesn't mean anything, right? It's just a word like eating, right? You know, is eating good for you? And so I would say the majority of fasting practices are probably going to do damage in the long run, right?

And so why is that? Well, based on data, right? So if you look at, you know, people that fast for 16 hours, most of them skip breakfast. Well, the breakfast skipping is being consistent and associated with higher mortality, overall mortality, higher cardiovascular mortality. Now, we don't know why, but, you know,

not a good start, right? So if you're doing something for your health, I'm going to skip breakfast or I'm healthier. And in fact, the people that skip breakfast are living shorter. Yeah, so I would say that we need to move from fasting as a word to like exactly what is it that I'm doing and why, right? And so we started a long time ago thinking about out of all the things that people talk about, are there some that could actually be beneficial consistently?

and, you know, and how long are they going to be and are they going to be water-only fasting or different? So we identified, we started studying in mice and say, what if the mouse, instead of having this daily intervention or restrictions, just did it once a month or twice a month for four or five days? So then that gave rise to the idea of periodic fasting, right? And so we introduced this idea of periodic fasting.

A few people had done before, but this didn't really exist. Finding Master is brought to you by Proton VPN. For so many in our community, travel is part of the rhythm of doing meaningful work. Boarding flights, hopping between cities, working out of hotel lobbies and coffee shops, it's all part of what it takes for some of us to lead and build at a high level. And one thing that's easy to overlook in that rhythm is digital security. Because the moment you connect to public Wi-Fi in a hotel or airport or cafe, your activity is suddenly a lot more exposed than most people realize.

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you go to protonvpn.com slash mastery. That's proton, P-R-O-T-O-N-V-P-N-V-N-V-N-com slash mastery for 70% off your two-year plan. Again, that's protonvPN.com slash mastery. And this is different than intermittent fasting, which is what you're saying. Intermittent fasting is usually, like say, you don't eat for 16 hours, you eat one day, you don't eat the next day. Yeah, so that's intermittent fasting. Essentially, it takes longer for the human body or the mouse to shrink, right? And that's what you want. You don't want a major shrinking of organs and systems,

but you want the human body to begin to shrink, right? And so it takes probably the whole five days. Now we couldn't go off. Five days for senescent cells? To begin to shrink, right? But to shrink the body starts getting rid of damage components, like autophagy. I said, why? Because it has to, it hasn't eaten for five days,

and it starts looking inside for sources of food, right? And fat is one of those, right? So you accumulate fat if you're like grizzly bear or emperor penguin. You know, when you have food, you eat as much as possible, accumulate it, and then you start slowly using it. And that's the same for actually cellular component. You know, the cell can start eating itself by a process called autophagy. But then we discovered, and that was really surprising,

that stem cells are starting to be. become activated at the end of the diet. And something called cellular reprogramming, Yamanaka factors, you know, so these factors that have the job of making all-cell young, they also start being activated together with many different genes associated with embryonic development. So what was happening, essentially?

So you shrink because there's no food, right? And now when food comes back around, you have to re-expend. So we started thinking, is it possible that this re-expansion is using the same developmental genes that the mouse or the person is used when they were first born, right? And that's exactly what happens, right? So in the re-expansion phase,

you're seeing the creation of a new organ, right? Of course, it's not the entire organ. It's just, you know, a component of it, but that's what we're seeing. And now the incredible thing is also goes after the damage. It knows something is now working in this organ. So let me fix it before it starts re-expanding, right?

And it's really remarkably powerful because it's billions of years of evolution that have led to this extremely sophisticated. So, for example, we took the pancreas of a mouse. We damaged it irreversibly, right? And then they don't make insulin anymore. And then we start the fasting we making diet cycles. And you see that reprogramming occurring, the Yamanaka factors go up, the embryonic developmental genes, and then the pancreas goes back to making insulin, right? So it knows how to go back to its original function.

And in doing so, it's becoming younger. And you're suggesting that at five days is when the autophageo process really starts to kick in. And two things are happening. One is the removal of old decay, decrepit cells. And the second is the rejuvenation of cells that were healthy but just a bit dormant. Is that, do I have that language correct? healthy, but also, and more important, the ones that are not healthy, right? So now you're thinking, that's why I was saying, the insulin, they're no longer able to, the beta cells are no longer able to make insulin.

So now the fasting, mimicking diet, refeating cycles are turning them back into a healthy insulin-producing beta cell. Okay, so it's both. Yeah, yeah, okay, I got that wrong. Okay, thank you. So describe a fasting-mimicking diet as a protocol that we can all benefit from. Yeah, so 15 years ago, we first started doing clinical trials at the New USC Norris Cancer Center with cancer patients with water-only fasting. Nobody wanted to do the water-only fasting.

And so then the government sponsored research on the fasting, mimicking diet. So we said, we have enough knowledge on, you know, what is it that is triggering fasting? What is it that is blocking fasting? And so we develop a low protein, low sugar, high fat, low calorie fasting mimicking diet. And so in that fasting making diet could have been made with any ingredient that are consistent with what I just said. But I decided that I wanted to make it with the healthiest ingredients that I could possibly think of.

So I combined the longevity ingredients, like the vegetable, the nuts, and, you know, the whole grains, et cetera, with the fasting mimicking properties, right? And so there was a good idea, and we didn't realize that it was a good idea until we did a study in mice on inflammatory bowel disease. And it turned out the water only fasting was only about health as effective as the fasting-meeking diet in repairing the damage to the gut. And in fact, the water-only fasting temporarily increased gut leakiness. And the fasting-micking diet didn't, and then it repaired them much better, was more effective than the water-only fasting. And the reason was that the prebiotic ingredients, going back to Westpter, were saying the prebiotic ingredients in the FMD, the fibers, etc.,

were feeding the lactobacillus, beefyedobacteria, and other bacterial population that then helped the gut repair itself. Yeah, so I think that the fasting making diet, you know, this composition, a very healthy composition, was very good from that point of view, but also from the behavioral, meaning training people to have a vegan diet. That was also, maybe we didn't quite realize it until years later when we started doing trials on diabetes, pre-diabetes, and we're starting to see people saying it's a slow process,

but people were saying, no, I never thought I could go five days with vegan food. And, hey, I did it. And so I felt good, you know. So that was also a very interesting observation. So it's not like they revolutionized a diet. They don't. But they slowly may take two or three years for them to say, you know what, I'm happier eating this way.

And also one comment we hear from a lot of people is, you know, I don't feel like I used to maybe eat two pizzas in a row. And now I don't feel like that's important to me anymore. So it's like the food addictions or the relationship with food changes slowly, but it changes. And so this fasting mimicking diet you would suggest three to four times a year, five days at a time? It depends. You know, for diabetes patients, it might be once every month or every two months in the initial stage. Okay.

And let's say obese, diabetes in the initial stage. And then you get down in the weight and more functional and then you can go every two months, every three months. And so now in southern Italy, we just finished testing on 500 patients every three months, once every three months. I mean, I cannot discuss the results yet. But certainly we think that that's probably, you know, a very effective, you know, once every three months to once every four months.

Okay. And then, so now let's kind of turn your gaze on cancer. And I understand your position to live a healthy life, fasting mimicking diet is one of them. More plant-based proteins than animal proteins, reduction in overall protein. And you're suggesting the intermittent fasting is not the way to do it, but I think I read 12 to 13 hours.

No, 12 hours is very good. Yeah, so we use FMD and 12-hour daily restrictions. So 8 a.m. APM. Absolutely. It's like one of our first, I forget to mention that. Yeah, but absolutely very important. Okay. So now this is a lifestyle, nutritional design,

to live healthier. Okay, great. Now speak to your understanding about cancer and somebody who is going through or just diagnosed with cancer, let's say. How does this relate to them? I think I start by talking about the business of cancer, right? And why is that? Well, because the business of cancer is a very big business. And it's a great business. I mean, like a lot of people's lives are saved by, you know, immunotherapy and other very powerful drugs. But because it's so expensive, because it takes almost a billion dollars to get a drug approved. It's very slow, right? If you came up with a very great idea for a cure for cancer,

you know, it may never see the, it might never happen, right? There's a filter and cancer patient a lot of times may not get all the things that they should get because, you know, nobody can face that billion dollar expense. So then you've got to think different, right? And you got to think different without using drugs because if you use other drugs, then, you know, you get into a violation.

You can do it only with something called compassionate use. But lifestyle, you know, is allowed, meaning like, you know, every oncologist, you have to do something. You have to eat something. You have to do something. Exercise. So, you know, which is it?

Yeah. So that's what my new book, Fasting Cancer is about, is having foundations both in Europe and here in the U.S., following thousands of patients, cancer patients and not just cancer. we started, you know, basically helping them integrate, say, okay, you know, you're going to go to the oncologist and the college is going to give you the treatment and great, you know, we don't, of course, touch that. But we are there to support that treatment as much as possible with everything we can in a personalized

way, right? So then, you know, why fasting mimicking diets, right? Well, first of all, fasting, as I mentioned, is not feasible for cancer patient, cacacia, and sarcopene and lots of problems that happen to a cancer patient, they need to eat. They need to eat, right? But when you give a fasting, mimicking diet to a patient or to a mouse, I mean, in my sense, it's very clear. I mean, we get to look at a piece by piece, cell by cell. And so all the cancer cells going in one direction, which is, I don't care that you're

fasting me. I keep on going. Right. You know, the normal cells say, you know, hey, I care very. much about this condition, I'm going to stop, right? And so this is really probably the most powerful way to separate all cancer cells from all normal cells, right? It's just opposite direction, right? So now I always keep the example of, you know, let's say a billion people in the desert. So if you take a billion people and you put them in the desert and you make them

run and, you know, and they don't have, they don't have any water. What's going to happen in two weeks, right, you have a billion dead people. As long as they keep running. If you didn't run, you might have a shot, right? You're not drinking for two weeks, but you're in the desert. You're sitting down. Okay, you may have a shot. That's what we exploit, right?

Say, okay, now the cancer cells cannot stop running. And so because they keep running, so if you take away the glucose and lots of other factors that are so important to keep running, they got a problem, but that's not enough, right? So why? Because they can steal from the rest of the body. So now you have to, okay, understand that they're running, starve them, and then hit them hard with something, which is the standard of care, right? For whatever the oncology feels that come up with that.

Yeah, whatever is the most, you know, whatever the oncology says, for you in this stage, I'll give you this. Perfect. So we work with that to say, okay, now we'll give you the wild card that makes things better a lot better. Okay, so cancer treatments, many of them, in an attempt to kill the cancer, also damage or kill healthy cells.

And what you're saying is when you starve the body just a little bit, the cells, right? Or you restrict the glucose and the nutrients that it needs to be able to grow. It weakens those cells just a little, or makes them vulnerable, I should say. And that in of itself opens up the treat to be more effective.

But you're still adding the traditional treatments, which is damaging the healthy cells as well. So how does your approach only target the cancer cells and not the healthy cells? The treatment is the treatment is going to do damage. What we've seen, and first of all, I'm talking about mice here. And there's 20 clinical trials, human,

but, you know, this is what I was saying earlier. It takes a billion dollars to get through. So, yeah, so we, you know, the foundation clinics are very careful saying we don't know what's going to happen to a patient, right? And usually we work more with stage four, stage three, stage four. When the oncologist said, I don't have anything else, right? There is nothing that is really that it's going to work, right? So I just want to make sure that it's clear. I'm not saying we don't know.

The clinical trial looked very promising, right? For example, for triple negative breast cancer, and now you see patients. small trials, but then the FMD plus chemotherapy, surviving more or allow more than patients with just chemotherapy, right? That's probably the more studied. There's several trials and triple-negative breast cancer, which is one of the most aggressive. Body Master is brought to you by Fatty 15. Did you know that Navy Dolphins helped unlock a secret to healthy aging? It's a wild story. And it's the foundation for a product that I've come to really love, Fatty 15. Fatty 15 is built around C-15. Faddy-15. Is built around C-15, the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years. And it was discovered by

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on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates or text threads, I, choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control, too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using. The best part, it only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to finding mastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free. Again, head to finding mastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. Okay. So let's go to stage four brain cancer and somebody's given months to live, six months to live. And they refuse to take treatment, traditional treatments. If they've got six months left, they're saying, I'm not going to go be vomiting half of them or whatever the narrative could be in for somebody. What would you suggest as an absolute baseline approach? Yeah. First of all, we suggest we've seen a lot of people.

in stage four, you know, going into remission, right? So we suggest that, yeah, seeing a lot of them, right? We don't like to, you know, say too much about it because we don't want to give the impression that we know it was our treatment that did that. We don't know, right? But certainly we've seen a lot of people going to remission and even from stage four.

And in fact, the National Cancer Institute in Milan where they used to be skeptical about all of this, right? A few years ago, they published a paper saying something about exceptional responses in advanced stage cancer patient. And so they had five different cancer patients that combined immunotherapy, chemotherapy, lots of their treatments with the fasting mimicking diet, and they saw five of them going into remission.

So they thought it was so surprising the five in the same trial, go from stage four to remission, that they publish a paper. So, yeah, so I think that I would say that I would give it a shot. Once you get to their stage, even if you have glioma, glioblastoma, And it's a really rough prognosis that, you know, I will stick with the standard of care like tamazolamide or radiation, et cetera, et cetera. And then add the fasting making diet. And then we add the ketogenic diet. And, you know, for each patient, there is a – so we do timers to the eating.

We – and all these recommendations, by the way, are made to the oncologists, right? So we basically say to the patient, take it to your oncologist. And this is the things we recommend. So timers to the eating, usually is 14 hours. then the fasting-emicking diet, exercise, resistance training, and then the ketogenic diet, especially for the glioblastoma. So we rotate between fasting-making diet, where we call the longevity diet and the ketogenic diet,

meaning like a very low-carb diet. And the reason is to make it as difficult as possible for these gliblastoma cells to survive. To keep, yeah, to survive. Okay, great. And would you immediately go on a fasting-mimicking diet right away? Everything is personalized, right? So we look at the muscle mass, we look at the weight, we look at the BMI, are they eating normally or not, and lots of things, and then make the recommendations.

I mean, in the Italian Foundation, we also have physicians in-house here. This is the Longo. Developed Lago Foundation in Milan, we have physicians, you know. So we have physician, PhDs, and nutritionists. Here, we're still, we're going to have them soon enough. Now we have PhDs and, but not physicians yet. But I think, you know, that would be the ideal to be followed by an integrative group that knows what they're doing it.

And they also are respectful of the job of the oncologist who in the end is going to make the decision here. Now, in your book, you walk through a handful of different cancers, like chapters, I don't know, five through 12 or approaches for each type of cancer. And is it dramatically different for each type of cancer, your recommendations from a nutrition and fasting mechanism? Yeah, dramatically different. And also stage, right?

So somebody could be stage one. Most stage one, we tell them, don't do the fasting making diet. Age and stage and BMI and muscle mass and history. And, you know, what is the chances right? So if you have a pancreatic cancer, you know, it could be early stage or earlier stage, but you might have a 32% five-year survival versus, you know, early-stage breast cancer, you know, ER positive. we may have 97% if I use survival.

Yeah, so it's a lot of calculations of risk and benefit. And yeah, so we try to bring the science to the oncologists, right, and say, hey, you know, this is all we know about all these integrative interventions and what do you think, you know, is this something there? And most oncologists, you know, it used to be most oncologists, say, no, no, I don't change anything. And I was like the other way around, right? Most oncologists are saying, okay, yeah, this patient is not going to do well with,

what we got, right? So go ahead. I'll allow it then. What an important body of work and research you've contributed. And like I said earlier, I was really wanting to have this conversation because you are challenging many of the common narratives for healthy people, specifically around protein. I think that your research-backed approach is refreshing. I really enjoyed your book. And so... Well, thank you. Yeah, you know, a funny mastery. We've got a small team of 40-some folks. And, you know, we've got three of our teammates here. Their parents are in the thick of the fight right now. So I wanted to dig in and understand.

And what a great resource your book is. And obviously, your foundation. Oh, thanks. Yeah. So, I don't know, hit us with three things that you hope all people could do to live a longer life, a better life, you know, a healthier life. For sure, the longevity diet, like the everyday longevity diet, which includes 12 hours of time or city eating, right?

And I think in general, it is a personalized, you know, people should do the most, right? You know, if you eat a lot of red meat, you know, try to go less red meat. That's it, right? So you don't necessarily have to, you know, abandon everything you've done before. And then, you know, the fasting in making diet seems to be are very powerful for so many diseases and conditions. And, you know, we're testing more and more. And so I think that list is going to expand. And then I would say exercise, both aerobic and resistance exercise training, those are very important.

Yeah, so those three things that I think you put it together, probably looking at maybe 20-year life expectancy difference compared to a Western sedentary lifestyle and habits him. Brilliant. And, you know, I forgot to circle back around on the gender. Are there any gender differences for the fasting-mimicking diet, or you're not finding that at this point? We're not finding them, right? I think it's probably such a fundamental, you know, fasting response and refeeding response is such a fundamental because we see it in mice, we see in simple organisms and it'll be strange between a male and female.

So I think as we're now doing these 500 people in larger trials, we're going to get to analyze everything differently and separately also. And so I think we're going to start seeing, yes, this response better. to this. And also, I think with women, you know, cycle and premenopausal and postmenopausal, there is a whole, you know, effort to be put in there, like, you know, when is the best time to the FMD compared to the period. I mean, you know, we have ideas, but I think it would be nice to formalize it with clinical

trials. And, yeah, so now we're doing the studies on PCOS and endometriosis. And so a lot of women specific studies, and I think those are going to have. once they're done, they're going to help us also understand, you know, more specifically how we can help women both before menopause and after menopause. Brilliant. And if you fast forward, I don't know, three years, do you think your protocols will be part of the mainstream treatment for cancer, or do you think it's going to take a lot longer?

I think it's going to be part of the mainstream, and I think we're working very hard with, you know, trying to get reimbursement. The fasting-making diet is definitely, should be a lot of it. part of the, you know, pre-diabetes, diabetes, inflammatory diseases. Now Stanford is published a beautiful study on Crohn's disease and FMD and I think many more are coming out from lots of different places. Now, cancer, I think that, you know, I hope that there's more funds that, you know, we need those billions of dollars.

That's the reality, right? So to take it all the way to phase three, FDA. Until then, you know, I think cancer is going to be the hardest one, right? Because it's so regulated and it's so hard to finish and prove it. And there's so many, it's like diabetes is one disease. Cancer is 100 different diseases and a thousand different therapies, right? So, yeah, it's very difficult, you know. And I think immunotherapy has been a remarkable story because now it's been FTA approved for so many

different uses, but it took 30 years to get there. And so with fasting, you're looking something even harder. But yeah, I think it's got that potential. It's got the potential of immunotherapy in making cancer treatments work better. But we'll see. And when somebody wants to learn more about a fasting mimicking diet, where do you want to point them? Yeah, of course the book, the two books, the longevity diet is more about prevention and living long. And the second book is fasting cancer, and that's just specifically, you know, with the help of many oncologists, including, you know, oncologists from MD Anderson and USC Norse Cancer Center, they had a very important role in that curbing my enthusiasm, right?

Sometimes, like, no, no, no, no, you cannot say that, you know. And so it is important because, you know, one thing is to see, like you were saying earlier, right? You can see cases of people that we were talking about, they are cured all of a sudden or even going remission, but you have to say, well, you know, this happens even in the absence of fasting-making diet, right? So it was the FMD, was it not the FMD. And, yeah, so those oncologists in the book were very important in, you know, making sure that we don't over-promise.

But I think everybody agreed that, like, you were, you know, we were saying earlier, you were talking about Leobaston in six months, right? You know, just that hope, that idea that, yeah, what if it was you that all of a sudden you got into remission, right? And we've seen it with so many patients could be you, right? Yes, I think that's a very important factor. And that was one of the major reasons to get out there. But also, you know, of course, they're randomized clinical trials,

showing that it may work better. One of the things I love about the scientific method and scientists in particular is that we are constantly searching for the right answers, the answers that hold up in the light. And if our answers or our understandings or insights that we have right now are challenged and found to be refuted and are not holding up, then you quickly let go of them, you know, and you don't hold on. It's like the anti-scientific approach. What have you needed to unlearn that was important and foundational for you as you've

been in your seat for longevity? I think, you know, personally, I mean, I didn't take seriously the personalization early on because, you know, I was working with yeast and mice and I just thought, you know, this is going to apply to everybody. And, yeah, to say that I had to unlearn this idea that, you know, because it's concerned and because we see things that span from different, you know, they grab lots of different organisms that's going to apply to every person. That doesn't work like that, right? So, yeah, you have to really understand each individual.

And it could be a very, very different treatments. for two different individuals, you know, and also, you know, in general, the diet, right, the understanding that there could be people that, in fact, may need more proteins, right? They may need more animal proteins, you know, I don't know, but in general, that's not true, but, you know, maybe 3% of the people may have a genetic predisposition that makes them very sensitive to, let's say, a low protein diet, right? So, yeah, that's certainly something that I think, you know, we are appreciating more, and more as we follow thousands of patients.

And that's been the difference, actually being there with the physicians and with the clinicians every day, going through case after case after case, and then being able to follow them, and, you know, you don't always, you don't always have a success story that makes you think about personalization

and not a solve a problem. But that also points to, you know, what the system should be, right? Which is, you know, it needs to be much more, medicine should be much more like these programs that we do together, meaning the scientists and the physicians and the dietitians, etc., this collaboration to not just visit you and say, okay, take this and come back in a year.

It would be more like, okay, well, let's see how this does. And then we do some reading. We come back to you and just goes back and forth until we solve your problem and then optimize your chances to make it to 110 health. Dr. Walter Langeau, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Next time on finding mastery, we're joined by Dr. Daniel J. Siegel, Harvard trained psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and bestselling co-author of the whole-brain child

and no drama discipline. In this conversation, Dan explores why the hardest moments in parenting often reveal more about us than our children and how understanding our own experiences may be one of the greatest gifts we can give the next generation. From repairing after mistakes to building resilience and emotional. health in our children, this episode offers a powerful framework for becoming a more present parent and a more integrated human being. Join us Wednesday, July 1st at 9 a.m. Pacific only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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