Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Psychology of Trust, Goal Setting & Identity | Ask Me Anything Vol. 14 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Today, we’re super excited to share the 14th installment of our Ask Me Anything series. The purpose behind these conversations - behind these AMAs – is to hear from you… to explore the topics and questions that you have been wrestling with on your path to becoming.The goal is to expand on the themes, lessons, and best-practices we’ve discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life.By now, our incredible co-host needs no introduction – we’re back with O’Neil Cespedes – and just a quick note of gratitude here… This show does not happen without you and your incredible questions. This is the last AMA of 2023, and O'neil and I are grateful for you challenging us with hard questions. It’s so energizing and inspiring to know our community is full of people that are pointing to a high quality inner-life, and are committed to getting better, and helping others do the same. I feel the fire in your belly. Keep creating a rising tide.  Today, we dive into:The psychology and physiology of agingWhy trust is a mental skill and how to train itBest practices for goal-settingThe dangers of advice-givingDealing with rejectionPerformance-based vs purpose-based identities And so much more… Wishing you an epic week, and hope you enjoy volume 14 of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything! _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Ultimately, the biggest lever of trust is do you trust yourself to figure shit out? When it goes sideways,

if it doesn't go according to plan, if you're flipped on your head, you know, unexpectedly, do you have a deep sense that you can figure that out too? Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. Now, the goal is to expand on the themes and lessons and best practices that we've discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. By now, our incredible co-host needs no introduction.

We are back with O'Neill Cespedes. And just a quick note here, a note of gratitude. This show does not happen without you and your incredible questions. This is the last AMA of 2023 and O'Neill and I are grateful for you challenging us with hard questions. These are hard questions. It is so energizing to wrestle them down and to work them through and to be able to share our point of view. And it's really inspiring to know that our community is strong. We're full of people that are pointing to a high quality inner life and are fundamentally committed to getting better and helping others do the same. So I feel the fire in your belly. I feel the struggles. I feel the hope and the opportunity that you're trying to create for yourself and others.

I just want to say, keep creating a rising tide, keep pushing, keep exploring. I feel it. We feel it. I hope you do too. So today we're going to dive into the psychology and physiology of aging. We're going to talk about why trust is a mental skill and how you can train it. Best practices for goal setting, the dangers of advice giving, performance-based versus purpose-based identities, and so much more.

And I want to say thank you for one more thing, the book. This book, The First Rule of Mastery, has taken off. I mean, for the list that we're making, the energy that's taking place, the feedback of how it's already making a difference for people to put handles on this thing called FOPO, this idea that the fear of other people's opinions is getting in our way. I just want to say, I feel it. We feel it. Thank you. Keep spreading the word on it as well. It's really meaningful, I think, to a lot of folks, including us. So with that, let's jump right into volume 14 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. Okay. It's been fun. It's been really fun.

I mean, I think when we started, it was like almost we didn't know what we're going to get into. And I was driving in this morning and I thought about, it feels like the game, each time we connect, like the game gets elevated just a little bit more. We go a little bit deeper. We're wrestling with more complicated questions. I'm having fun, so I appreciate you. Yeah, I'm really starting to enjoy that.

I'm also starting to enjoy being put on the spot. Are you? And opening up, because you know, I don't really wanna open up. So, you know, I love it. All right, good. So what have you been up to? I'm gonna share something with you. It's gonna sound mundane and trivial,

but it's important to me, right? It's gonna seem stupid, but it's important to me. Dr. Mike, my hamstrings have been getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And I link hamstring tightness to you know getting older oh right so i'm trying to figure out an interesting link it's an interesting link because there's some fact to it oh for real i was i was kind of halfway joking are you serious yeah yeah for sure like well muscle stiffness and tightness with aging is you know But at the same time, the meaning of being older is what I'm curious that you're linking it to.

Oh, yeah. You are getting older. So there's some meaning underneath this somewhere, right? Yeah. I mean, yes, yes. But it doesn't mean my hamstrings have to tighten up. It doesn't. I don't want both of them to

exist in the same space together you know what i mean yeah somebody said to me a while ago it was a strength coach for one of the pro teams he's like we gotta fight against age and i was like you oh you like that i was like i felt fire by it and then i was like no i don't want to fight against age like it's happening but i do feel like I need to work harder as well to keep some of the muscularity, the cardio fitness, the elasticity. All of that is way harder for me too. Yeah. See, I mean, I don't mind fight.

I don't want to fight it as far as getting gray and wrinkles and all that stuff. I take that. You know what I'm saying? I want to look distinguished. You know what I mean? Get a cigar in my mouth. Get a Weimaraner. You know what I mean?

Those sorts of things come with getting older, right? But the hamstring stiffness, the back stiffness, I don't know how I feel about that. When I think about, this is probably maybe an interesting conversation for more people than just you and I, is that strength is an important foundational condition. And I'm looking at your partner here

because that's your lifestyle, right? Yeah, so strength is a foundational component. And then as I'm getting a bit older, so I spend time like two to three days a week, call it three to four hours a week on strength. And then mobility is really important for me. And so I was not gifted good mobility. And so I have to work really hard at it.

And then cardiovascular fitness thread throughout there. So I did not spend time on mobility at a younger age. Hit that second one first. What kind of meaning do you make of getting older? Man, I should have never brought that up. I equate it with death. Yeah, it's good. Yeah.

That's probably pretty logical. Yeah, so. The way that, from a psychological perspective, we know that the way people frame aging and older age is significantly important for the quality of their health now and the quality of their future health. So just framing age, aging is like, like you said, like, I'm actually looking forward to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Yeah, gray hairs and this that and

the other but but i'm looking forward to as opposed to hey i'm trying to slow this thing down i'm doing everything i can to not demonstrate aging physically that framing is directly related to overall health really yeah so like it makes me or breaks me type of thing. And so it sounds like you're, I don't know, in the middle? I'd say so. I'd say so. I mean, there's times when I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, oh man, that's crazy. I got a gray hair in my beard. You know what I mean?

And well, okay. So a lot of the reason why I feel the way I feel when I look in the mirror is because of my circumstance. People have always told me that I look younger than I am. When I tell my age. That's part of this identity thing. Yes. Yeah, right.

It's so tricky, isn't it? Yes. And you do. It's almost, it's a curse now. Cause now that when you start aging and you start seeing it, you're like, man, I don't look young. I don't look younger than I am. Yeah, what's happened? Yeah, yeah, yeah.'re like, man, I don't look young. I don't look young. You know what's happened?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My role to other people is that I look young and do I still have that surprise? Do I still have that thing? Yeah. Yes. Which is like, you know, so we've got a 15 year old son

and we're incredibly thoughtful about giving him compliments, but compliments that are 100% under his control. So we wanna recognize the things that he's doing well at like three to one clip to the things he's screwing up. Okay, so, but the things that we're commenting on are the things that are in his control. So last night at dinner, he came in late from practice.

And so he sat down and he was kind of like a disheveled mess like post training. And he's got this huge head of hair. I mean, it is like, so I grabbed the back of his head and he had all of this hair on it. And I said, look at this hair. And then I quickly, I didn't share this out loud with anyone, including him. I think one of the worst things we can do is give compliments to like beauty or hair in this respect. And I'll tell you why is because you have, you're a handsome man.

You had nothing to do with your genetic looks, your looks. That was a gift that your ancestors gave you. And like, I guess it can feel nice, you know, it's for, for me to say it and for you to receive it. But then there's a, there's a poison in that type of compliment and so like effort attitude grind grit positivity cleverness creativity those are things that while there are some predispositions for it like those are things that you can actively influence right so you have some control over them and so i guess you have some control of the way you look but uh there's genetics played a huge part in it yeah yeah that's what i said i mean you can have some control you can go you look, but there's genetics played a huge part in it. Yeah, yeah, that's what I said. I mean, you can have some control.

You can go to the doctor, Beverly Hills, you know what I'm saying? In LA, there's a lot you can do. There's a lot you can do. There's a lot you can do. Okay, no one does it alone. And I want to share a couple sponsors that are making this show possible.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right

people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal.

That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot.

Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know

they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity.

And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. Let's jump into the first question. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. This first question is from Sam. I'm Sam. I'm a 20 year old software engineer. I've always been a- Wait, hold on. Did he say I'm Sam?

He let you know he was Sam. I was going to make a comment about that, but I let it roll, but I'm glad you said something. I'm Sam. I am Sam. In case y'all didn't know. That is great. I feel you, Sam. That's a real fun way to start. I am here. I am Sam. He is him. I'm Sam. I'm a 20-year-old software engineer. I've always been a top performer at

my job, but I was recently passed over for a promotion in favor of a colleague. Our company preaches the value of team, and I've leaned into it, including building up my colleague. I feel like being a good teammate has come back to bite me and left me feeling a little bit jaded. Any insights you can offer? Thanks. Okay, that's got to feel awful awful the majority of us want to be part of something we want to belong and biologically we are wired to be part of an ecosystem of other people and when we get looked over or skipped over or slightly rejected we feel that rejection in deep ways not that dissimilar to it's a near-death sentence when we don't get included or pulled into the center of the fray or to the center of the the tribe because when we're pushed

out long ago from the from the tribe that was a death sentence because if you and i got kicked out of the tribe because i screwed something up and you and i are partners and they looked at us like okay you guys got to go and it was my fault I didn't do the right job that you and I couldn't hunt, gather, forge, protect. We couldn't do enough together to be able to live a long life. So it's really important that we're part of the pack. And when you get stepped over or, or not included in the promotion or whatever, there's a deep biological trigger that's taking place. Okay.

That's not exactly what Sam is talking about. Sam's talking about, I was asked to pour into the team. So Sam probably wanted to do that because he wanted to be included. He wanted to be part of something. And he's like, yes. So he poured into the team as he was helping another teammate. And I don't know if you've seen this in sport yourself or in other conditions. And as he's being a good teammate and pouring in, that teammate gets a jump up.

Trust is foundational. And when a leader is suggesting that we want to build a team and be great teammates and pour into the center, again, most people want to do that. And at the same time, understand that that requires some vulnerability. So that vulnerability is the moment where trust is expressed or not. There's risk to give yourself to anything. However, if you don't give, you're likely going to be pushed out. Do you see where this rub is? So he gave himself to the team and got stepped over or didn't get included right now. So I think that the skill of being able to discern how to trust is also foundational.

So trust is a skill. Based on your unique family dynamics, your genetic coding, the neighborhood that you grew up on, the way that your family talked about trust, you've got a water table of trust. Could be low, medium, high. Let's say that Sam's is high. Okay. If you trust naively without a discernment or an ability to know why or how you're trusting,

that's a very dangerous way to be part of a pack, to be part of a team, to go through life. So I would, I'd come back around, Sam, and I'd say, okay, feel the pain. I do not want to take away that pain that you're feeling. Let's use this as an indicator on how to get better. And I'm going to nod my head to say, keep pouring into the center, keep pouring into the mission, keep pouring into other people, because that is biologically fundamentally important. Okay. And at the same time, it's how we move the mission forward. No one does the extraordinary alone. So we do need to pour into the center. A charismatic leader, however, can manipulate psychology and emotion pretty easily. I'm not convinced that leaders and organizations

are highly skilled at psychology as opposed to charismatically easily manipulative of others. Sometimes they just look the part and can say the right things, but don't really understand how to take care of people along the way. A lot of framing, I understand. But to get right down into the answer is that there's three ways that we can build the skill of trust. So the first is, this is thin slicing trust. So it's not this naive, I'm just going to trust other people. But do you trust that this person has the logic and the skills and the talent to back the promise that he or she is making. Okay, so that's the first thing.

When you look at this person, do you believe, have they demonstrated the logic, skills, and talent to move the mission forward? The second is, do they hold up under duress? Are they authentic is what I'm pointing to. Are they able to be that same person or close proximity under great stress and just to rest as they are when it's calm and chill and relaxed? Because if they start to flip or flop during high stress, you might want to back off. You might want to pull some trust back because you don't know what you're going to get under duress. And people make different decisions

about others under stress. They take care of themselves more often than they pour into the middle. So if your leader is different under stress, they become smaller, tighter, anxious, irritated, agitated. I'm backing up a little bit. I'm opening my aperture to really watch if this is a safe person to trust. And then the third is, do I have a felt sense that this person is in it for me too? I hope they're in it for themselves, but not more than my needs, not more than my dreams and hopes. So there's three parts to this last variable? Do they have the sense that my growth is important as well? The team's growth is important, the mission, if you will, and their growth. So managing all threes.

If I only get the feeling that they're out for themselves or they're only about the team, I'm gonna back up a little bit. So those are the three levers that I think through when I'm going to back up a little bit. So those are the three levers that I think through when I'm deploying trust. And trust takes time. And trust takes time under tension. There's a whole set of practices that sit under those skills that we can build to be

better at trusting. But if you're not using at least those three levers, things can go sideways for people and so that's sam like maybe that as you move forward start to discern those three variables for the people that you want to trust and then of course be remiss to say ultimately the biggest lever of trust is do you trust yourself to figure shit out when it goes sideways if it doesn't go according to plan if you're flipped on your head you know unexpectedly do you have a deep sense that you can figure that out too there are a lot of layers to this and i i don't know if this is more personal for me but when i hear sam say this is definitely personal for me when i hear sam say that you know he he feels as though he's been a

top performer and he's passed over for this promotion and he's trying to be about the team and whatnot i almost feel like it makes me it takes me back to what you said a few amas ago about it was someone that had a question and they were wondering if the the team they were they were a part of was the right team for them. And you were saying that they need to have these skills in order to be able to assess if this is the right team. And if it's not the right team, you need to know that you should go find the right team as opposed to saying, this is what I'm here for.

And this is the mundane thing. And I'm following the ABCs that were laid out before me and before my father and for them and so on and so forth. When I when I read something like this, the first thing that comes to my mind is, hey, man, if you felt like you were the best and you got looked over. You might need to separate yourself from there and go find some a team that values you more. Now, I know that may be maybe a bit premature or hasty, right, or hotheaded, like, I know I'm good. So I quit. I'm going to go to another team and they'll probably, you know, accept me. And if they don't accept me and so forth and so on, you might be doing that until, and then find out that you're

the problem, right? So I'm torn because when I listen to you and then I read this, I'm like, man, Sam, man, no, if you really feel in your heart of hearts that this was supposed to be yours and you bought into the concept of team and you got overlooked man that might be a sign that you should just bounce that's wrong no that's that's a behavioral outcome that i think is a for sure great option and so if let's go to like a um a sport franchise if that happens on a sport franchise and the number one is now sat or it's all equal in camp and then the person who thought they were the number one on the depth chart actually is on the bench now that that person if they really believe that they're their best, they might agitate for a trade.

It might create a hostility in that person like, okay, this is not the fit for me. I don't believe that the future is going to work out right here. I need to move. I'm more cautious on that approach than I am saying, can you sort out the current condition, use it to get better, and maybe find that opportunity to be the starter. So I think there's a bias there. And I see the trend in college athletics right now, whereas as soon as you want to, you trade, you ask for a trade. So you commit to a college, that doesn't really mean a lot because there's the open portal as it's known. So you can bounce around. That's a trend that started a while back with high school, parents trying to find kids the right high school so that they're the starter with that. So you get looked at. I don't know. I mean,

yeah, I get it. I get, I get trying to make informed decisions to find a path for the best opportunities. I'm down with it. Yeah. It's not my first default. And so I I'm glad you brought that up because that could be the most powerful move. And I would add that if you say I'm out, that you will likely make that same mistake in a new environment, the same mistake of not necessarily knowing how to trust well. Right. So, and, or there's one more, which is maybe you're not as good as you thought you were. Come on, Sam. Like, can you back it? Because we know from research that people tend to overestimate their skills and abilities. This is why the advent of 360 evaluations, like get your peers to tell you what's up. Like you might get something different.

So the best performers in the world do overestimate their skills and abilities. So there's an unreasonableness that sits inside people that change the understanding of human potential. They are unreasonable. And they believe that they're often better than they are. And that can be great. It can also be a little bit of a naive land. So maybe you're getting a dose of reality, Sam. I don't know.

Maybe it is time to go, to your point. Or maybe there's an opportunity to develop a more sophisticated way to trust so that you don't know. Maybe it is time to go, to your point, or maybe there's an opportunity to develop a more sophisticated way to trust so that you don't feel burned. Good luck, Sam. Come on, Sam. You got this. And it's hard because before we go to the next,

you know what's really hard is like, we're answering these questions without the context of like, maybe his medical bills are outrageous and maybe his family lives in the neighborhood that he's in and doesn't want to leave and it's the best job available. Like there's all these other contextual things that we, of course, we don't know. Sometimes when you look at a situation like this, you witness things and they happen for no rhyme, no reason.

You look at one individual's situation and you see that they ask for a trade or they transfer to another school and their careers just took off right you said you know i'm gonna do the same thing and then your career just crashes or the inverse where i've seen personally yeah a great great player stay at a school because he was committed to it and he was highly touted he could have gone on to do great things out of high school but he decided to just go to college and it ruined him and i scratched my head i'm like okay was it destiny was it written were you not supposed to be this or did you make such a big mistake in staying in this program under this particular coach it's so

complicated isn't it yeah yeah i'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested

NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So, you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the momentous three protein creatine and omega-3 and together these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones,

slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners

20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. Yeah. We just had a conversation with one of the deep thinkers of our time, Robert Sapolsky. He's on that there's no free will. Really? Zero free will. It's all determined. That is so depressing to me to hear that. And I asked him about that. And he

says that he is, he struggles with struggles with you know a depressed experience in life and he but his logic is like it's all determined he's a deep thinker I do not agree with his position and there's some really deep great thinkers that have taken the position of no free will I'm not i am not there in my logic in no way shape or form am i there yeah i just i i believe there's a rhyme and reason to everything i don't believe that you're no i won't even think about that he says he says religion spirit spirituality god agency autonomy choice it is all hogwash. Wow.

How about it? That's dark. It's morbid to me. But his point is like, look, not that long ago, we thought that schizophrenia was, the core cause of schizophrenia was cold mothering. He says, we know better so we used we shamed hundreds of thousands of moms for the maladies let's say of their children because of their coldness or behaviors that were not warm enough to nurture you know a healthy buoyant psychological being we know that that is not the case there's in schizophrenia there's a it's directly related to uh dopamine so like

do you know where the word hysterectomy came from no i mean i can't believe it wasn't even that long ago um that we believe that the uh the internal organs of a female would wander and it would cause that woman to be hysterical so we would have to do a hysterectomy. I was going to say hysterical. God, I should have said it. I mean, it's absolutely, like, what were we thinking? We used to think that people had convulsions in a car and had a car crash that they were possessed by the devil

or that maybe they were a witch, and we'd string them up. So his point, that's old thinking. And that was commonplace at that time. And the thinking now that we have agency and choice, he's saying, wait, 10 to 15 to 20 years, you'll see. You know, but yeah, like we're just kind of naive about how things are going. I don't agree, just to be clear.

I know we have this next question, but I gotta ask one more question on this. Do you think, Dr. Mike, do you think if we had- All of a sudden, when you say Dr. Mike, I feel like there's a- A series going on. Yeah, it is Mike, yeah. I love saying Dr. Mike, it just has this ring to it.

Do you think if we had all the answers, if some great being just descended from the heavens, earth, space, whatever people wanna believe and said, "'Hey, these are the answers. Now you have them.'" And we had the answers to why everything happened. Everything in life. Will we be better people?

Will we be a better race? Because a lot of the things, a lot of the mishaps, a lot of the things we lot of the mishaps a lot of the things we do all the crazy things i think come from just us you know the circumstances we get put in or us not understanding things and we're just like well fucking i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do that if we had the answers if we knew for sure for sure like this is why this happens i don't know the answer but i'd love to crowdsource that i think we do a post on Finding Mastery and just ask that question

and see crowdsource what those answers would be. Yeah. That'd be fun to do. Yeah, that'd be amazing. So next question is from Jill. Hi, Dr. Mike. My sister is highly successful in her field. I think though that she extrapolates

that her success in one domain makes her an expert across life because she's continuing doling out advice about how others, especially me and my parents, should live. You work with a lot of the world's best. You encounter that? Or highly successful people think their mastery in one domain translates to wisdom for living? I've tried communicating to her about it, but it doesn't seem to land. Do you have any suggestions how to handle? It's really annoying. Many thanks. You know, what drives me absolutely crazy is when somebody is an expert or one of the best in the world, even in one domain. And they think that because they understand that,

they understand other disciplines. That they have some sort of rite of passage that they've crossed to give life advice, to give advice of somebody else who's trying to become better in their craft. It's absolutely insane to think that somebody, one, is going to give advice to another person because we don't know how that person has come to arrive at the dilemma that they're in.

And so advice giving just makes me, it's a belittling process to other people. I'm not about it. And so especially when you've got somebody that thinks that because they've understood one part of life that they can extrapolate, to me that is so condescending and irritating. I feel this person's pain. I feel Jill's tension around this. I don't want to be around people like that. And I'm animated about this because I've spent my whole life trying to understand the psychology of human flourishing, of helping people be at home with themselves wherever they are and to access the craft, the skills that they've uncommonly invested in.

I don't know. I don't give advice for that reason because I don't understand uniquely what that person needs and I need to ask a lot of questions. So I've learned from some of the best coaches in the world that true mastery of coaching is an investment in understanding what's happening for the doer. So they ask great questions. What'd you feel? What'd you see? Have you solved anything like this before? Where have you seen or felt or experienced something close to this? How did that go? And I'm not saying this all happens in live, you know, under live bullets, but there's

a process to try to unlock and understand as opposed to extrapolate. Well, I'm a good surgeon. So I think this is how I do it and you should do it that same way. It's bullshit. It doesn't work that way. There is some sort of chip missing in the sensitivity for many surgeons. And because there's this real power that happens when you cut another person open, you grab a hammer and a nail sometimes if you're an orthopedic, and then you literally screw, tap, nail, and solve something where they couldn't walk and now they can walk. There is a bit of a power in that. A command over another person's body is pretty radical. And there's some sort of poison that was drank during that process,

or they're attracted to it, that that arrogance, I want my surgeon to be confident. I want my surgeon to also be kind and respectful of my life arc and adventure. And so when that arrogance shows up, I'm like, I got to get the fuck out of here. I can't. I'm agitated right now just even thinking about Jill's condition because that type of triggering of arrogance is so belittling to another person that that person that they're expressing their arrogance to is now worse off than better off. Unless they see that arrogant posturing and that arrogant posturing,

the way they feel smaller next to that big arrogance, there's an unlock for them just in that accident that they go, all right, I know that compassion's more important than advice. I know that kindness is more important than arrogance. And just by accident, their growth happens. But this is a disservice that we do to other people when we give advice and we think that because we're good at one thing, we can begin to understand how to be good at multiple others.

Yes, there are capabilities that cross from one to another. A great football player understands how to be on time, be a student, work with stress, be a good teammate, da, da, da. Those capabilities can translate over to just about any other skill. I feel just as you do times 100. Oh, you do? So I'm going to try to say this in a calm manner. Calm me down. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna try to say this in a calm calm manner calm me down yeah yeah I'm sorry you're not I cannot stand know-it-alls I just call them know-it-alls you know obviously a person who's good in one field they think it translates into other fields I separate myself from them now I'm not

telling Jill to do this but I think think this is your sister too right exactly yeah exactly more complicated yeah i take them in doses i i have to take them in doses because if i had to deal with them all the time then i'd be forced to speak my mind and tell them how i really feel like hey man you don't know it all you know you're not god unless you're or you got junior i don't know you know i'd be forced to retaliate in some way because listening to them posture and go on and on about how you need to do this and have you tried this and well this worked for me and why aren't you doing this it's too much it's it's just too much they're doing too much yeah it's doing too much yeah so um man jill it's your sister so i mean you can't do that obviously but. But I don't know.

What I find interesting is the surgeon thing you just talked about. I have a friend who's a surgeon and a pretty high-level jiu-jitsu competitor. An amazing individual as far as his output and his capacity to just take on all sorts of stress. You know, if you're doing jiu-Jitsu at a high level, it's insane. But he was in medical school while competing. I mean, it seemed like he was a cyborg, but he is disconnected almost to the point where it's like, wow, you're like a robot.

Like he'll tell me stories about patients and things of that nature. And for the longest, I said to myself like, man, he experiences trauma on a whole nother level every single day. So to some degree he has to find some way to deal with it, right? But I just found it interesting

when you talked about surgeons, I'm like, wow, that's true. I just poked the bear. Yeah, right? What's gonna happen now? So you made the whole foods and you got about 20 surgeons in a gang, I'm like, what's up, Dr. Mike? Yeah, right. What's going to happen now? You'll be the whole food. Oh my God. About 20 surgeons in a gang.

What's up, Dr. Mike? Yeah, right. What'd you say about us now? Oh my God. Oh God. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. Recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge

pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take

care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters.

If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. Oh, yeah.

All right. Next question from Alexander. Dr. Mike, I feel like there are always studies that are coming out to contradict other studies, and I don't know who or what to believe. For example, I've read that setting vague long-term goals are more beneficial than specific long-term goals and vice versa. Julian Edelman and Johnny Manziel mentioned that they never really thought about the NFL growing up. Patrick Mahomes saw himself going to the MLB.

What's your take on the best goal setting practices? Did Patrick Mahomes win MVP last year in the NFL? Was he, I know- I think, yeah, two-time MVP, right? Yeah, just to give context, like this is one of the best in the league that wanted to go play a different sport. Yeah. Okay.

All right, so when I hear this question, I automatically want to kind of put on the science hat and do two things. The first is that that's what science is designed to do is to say, we had an idea, we ran an experiment, we found that in fact, that doesn't work. So that's more common. And that's kind of the goal is to rule out the things that don't work until you get to the things that seem to make sense consistently. So that's why that when you can't just say that, well, science says, because science is going to say a lot.

And depending on the researcher or the institution or the time or that the research was done or the population it was done with, there's going to be multiple findings and understandings of the core concept. So it does take a deep discernment to read research and science. And that's why pop psychology in particular can be, I don't want to say dangerous, I'll just put the word there, dangerous, because it's not clear. And it takes a discerning person to weed through decades of research to best understand something as simple as goal setting. So I just kind of share that science note for a minute. And then the other piece is that science is evolving too. So what

we once knew to be maybe a best practice might not be a best practice now. So let me not get into the weeds about a best practice. And I will share one way that I think about goal setting. I didn't have goals as a kid. I didn't, I didn't say one day I'm going to be the person I am now. I didn't, that's not how I worked. I worked with these little interesting breadcrumbs that I was able to sniff out right in front of me. And I made these small choices that seemed interesting or compelling or challenging or

stimulating. And I just kept following those. So I'd be a hypocrite to lean on what some science has said, that goal setting is a very important part of the practice. I do use goals, though though in a different way. This idea of using your imagination. So instead of long-term goals, which I said I did not use, what I'm more interested in is waking up the imagination

for myself and for others. And so when we use this very powerful process to use our imagination to see and to feel what a future, a good future could be, that's a great practice. That's really interesting. And then what goal setting I think is designed to do is once you're using your imagination, define the words that best articulate the image, the idea that you're holding. And writing it down, there's a forcing function for clarity. So if you need help on clarifying the steps you want to take and where you want to go,

the goal setting process makes sense to me. I don't want to box myself in and I don't want to set a path that I'm going to alter many times. So what I do is I use my imagination to think about what a good future could be. And then I set it more of an experiment. So in my mind, I don't say goal setting. I'm like, I'm going to run this experiment. And then I can abandon an experiment at any time. And I'm not a failure if I abandon an experiment. We're goal setting. If you set a goal, there's some sort of expectation that if I don't reach it, I'm a failure. I run experiments and I run lots of them. But I'm using my imagination to think about a better future for you, for me, for our team,

for whatever. And that's where I spend some of my quiet time. I don't write it down unless I'm hazy or it's foggy. But what I do do, do do? What I do, I ask athletes and I do it myself, is to have three goals before every practice, three goals before every day, if you will. Sometimes they're written. I ask athletes to write them down just to make them super concrete so I can know that there's deep thought and they're not just riffing on something. Three goals that are 100% under your control for today. And if you index on those

three, you're going to put yourself in a position of power or leverage or strength. And if you can do those three things well, you're likely going to have some sort of outcome that is favorable. But with all of the choices you could make at every nanosecond, if you can keep at least those three things tuned, you're likely to decrease anxiety. You're likely to feel a little bit more powerful in your ability to influence how you're showing up and it just gives you a bit of a small nor a mini north star if you will on practice and game day so three goals 100 of your control on a daily basis i think is a best practice that i really like but the long-term stuff is a little bit different for me you know i absolutely i'm gonna be honest with you i love two things that you just said

yeah using your imagination and experimenting like yeah i experimented with running the route that way i ain't gonna do that more i experimented with shooting shots like that that didn't really work out for me but just trying that i heard um heard a former NBA player say that the reason why Steph Curry can shoot so well is because he was afforded the opportunity to just jack up shots from half court since he was a kid, right? And he was using examples of other players who would get snatched out of the game, who didn't get to experiment, right, and do that. And then this fear got built up.

And so they became bad shooters or they were hesitant in shooting. I think using your imagination takes you back to that childlike quality that you had when you were a kid where you just believed anything was possible and you would experiment and try anything. And through experimentation, you did it, right? From swimming to all these things. But then when you become an adult, you start to think like, I need to be here. I need to make this amount of money.

And if you don't get it, you feel like a failure. I'm an example of that. I mean, I've said, I've dabbled with just experimenting and using my imagination, which is normally who I am and what I am. And then as I became older, I got to write my goals down, write it on a piece of paper. I remember in college,

my girlfriend in college told me that her ex, who was playing on the team, who won a national championship, she gave me a detailed example of how he changed from a freshman to a sophomore to a junior. And it was my first time hearing this. She was like, he took a piece of paper and he put all the things he wanted to do. He wanted to average 15 points, 10 rebounds, and he put it on and he looked at it every

day. And that's what started me on the grown adult goal setting thing. And then when it didn't pan out, I was bummed out. I've seen goals work incredibly well for people. We had a mid-level draft pick on one of the teams I was working with, and chip on his shoulder, came in with really clear goals, and he was flat out, all in, burned the bridges like he was in to make that thing work.

And so there can be some clarifying forcing functions in goal setting. So I'm not saying don't use them i'm saying i feel a little confined when i'm foggy and hazy about something there is something that's really important about writing it down as a forcing function for clarity and so i like that and when i say experiment i'm i'm like committing to it in a serious way i I'm not like, I heard you say like, Oh, I'm going to try my shot this way. I guess experiments can be rapid, but like, I want to give it a go a real shot, like a scientific experiment. Like I want to give this thing a try to see how it pans out. So I'm not trying to be so flimsy in them. I'm trying to be a bit more disciplined in it. So sometimes

flimsy sounds good. as I said it out loud. Flimsy is definitely relaxing. Yeah, it is. This next question is from Owen. Hi, Dr. Gervais. I'm a high school baseball player and have big aspirations in the game. I spend a lot of time training and refining my craft to work to make my vision come true. I've heard you talk about how when what you do become too ingrained with your identity that it can make it hard to perform because it feels

like your identity is on the line. My question is this, how can I work to make sure baseball isn't much of my identity even though I spend a large amount of time working at it? I love that question. I really, really i like there's something really warm that i'm feeling right now thinking that our community is asking questions about their identity and about being more than what they do and just like being refreshed with that type of thought is like there's a reward in and of itself, just hearing that question for me. I wish I had like this really clear answer where I point to is the first thing is like, nice, like great that you're wrestling with that. That is awesome. That's

good, deep work. Of course, I'm not going to have your answer. You know, the second is that we could teach on performance-based identity and purpose-based identity. Because what he's struggling with is a performance-based identity, that I am what I do. And more importantly, I am what I do in relationship to other people. If I have a performance-based identity, I get a 69 on a test out of 100. Okay. The next thing I do is check, how did other people do? And if everyone else got 68 and below, oh, I'm kind of okay. That's a performance-based identity. The performance-based identity could get you to a place where you are the best in the world. It could get you really good because you're constantly comparing yourself

to wanting to be one step better than somebody else. And if you're gonna really commit to that plan and that approach of life, you'll likely get good at something. There's a poison in that though. There's a cost. So you arrive on the world stage and you feel kind of anxious,

maybe depressed, agitated, irritated, unsettled, unfulfilled, hollow, empty, lots of money in the bank, depending on the venture. So there's a poison and there's an asset that we can point to. I just love that we're talking about identity and who am I? And you want to unravel that. It starts with a question that was introduced at least 2,600 to 3,600 years ago. You just sit with that question, who am I? And ask it again, who am I? And sit with it. Sit with it for 10 minutes, 15, 12, 20, 26 minutes, over and over and over again.

That's one of the processes or best practices for contemplative meditation. And when I sit with that question, who am I and or what am I, but who am I? It'll take you to dark places. places where you are vulnerable and weak and unvirtuous and confused. And it'll take you to places. And until you can wrestle with those dragons, you never really know who you are, who you're capable of. So there's this process to relieve oneself of a performance-based identity that I could say, listen, just go and identify your purpose. And then you'll be on the better path.

Okay, that's cool. But until you sit with yourself in your own deep understanding of who you are, you will not be able to answer that question because we are far more than role and we're far more than the pursuit of purpose. I wish I could answer it in a simple way, but I'm not feeling that right now. I'm feeling like, yeah, go for it. Just really go for this. And so when I share this sentiment and maybe practice, I see you looking at me like you're thinking deeply. This question resonates with me because I'm, and maybe I'm a little too far on the other side.

I love this question because I think it's boring to wrap your identity up in who you are. Your identity in what? I'm identity up in who you are. In what your identity in what you, I'm sorry, not who you are, in what you do. So I love that, you know, I'm always asking this question. I'm gonna probably, you know, stir a hornet's nest when I say this, but like,

I'm gonna use the grappling community for a second. You know? So we got surgeons. And grapplers after us. So we're gonna be in trouble. We're gonna be in trouble, we're gonna have to watch our back. I got your back if you got mine. Is that right?

Yeah, I can handle some of your surgeons. I cannot handle the grapplers. I just need you to just- So listen, I'm just gonna stand behind you. No, no, no, what I need you to do is be a body. They grab you and I run, because I- No, no, no, that was my role. That is my role, okay. When I run. No, no, no. That was my role. That is my role.

Okay. When I first started training, I got the feeling like people wanted cauliflower ear soon. They wanted to have the look. They wanted to look like what they did. You know, when the apparel started coming out, they dressed in the apparel, right? We can thank affliction. Man, I was going to say that, but I didn't want to say it. Now that you said it, yes. Affliction.

I couldn't stern affliction. I couldn't stern affliction, but yes. And I know that we have subcultures, right, in the world, and everybody wants to belong. When I did CrossFit, all they would do was talk about CrossFit. Oh, they let you know. They let you know. I remember one girl told me, she was like,

I can't date a guy that I squat more than. Interestingly enough, you squat more than me. But, you know, I was like, what is this about? You have to be more

than what you do. So I think that's amazing that Owen's giving thought to that and delving into that because, man, if I do one thing, if I grapple, if I do whatever,

you'll never hear me talk about it. I want to go if I do whatever, you'll never hear me talk about it. I want to go to the loo. I want to run through the- Oh, you are such a renaissance man. I'm such a renaissance man. I want to go to jazz night. I want to pick daisies.

I want to talk about Copernicus. So easy to fall in love with you. Yeah, right? And then boom, you blink and I'm grappling yeah right yeah but yeah uh this is near and dear to me oh and you you do that keep going keep going keep going yeah we're so much more than what we do and it's so easy to say that and um i find myself even with like the the commitment to deep work that i've had that as soon as things go sideways on the performance that I'm giving or wanting to give or whatever, like I can feel the heat in my body turn on too.

Yeah. Which means that there's still work for me to do. Cause I've, I'm close to my surface is like, I want to present well, when I'm at my best, I'm coming from a place of gratitude to give as opposed to the need to be seen. And that's one of the great, this is why we did the book on FOPO and the fear of people's opinions being one of the great constrictor. And so performance-based identity, we did a lot of research in the book about it. Performance-based identity is one of the on-ramps to living with fear in a social setting.

I just really love this question and that our community is wrestling with something deeper and bigger beyond high performance. Well, there we go. It went too fast. Thank you again. Thank you. Yeah. I want to encourage folks to keep writing and challenging us.

I'm excited about where this is going. Yeah, I am too. I love the questions. Love it. So yeah. All right, man. It's amazing. Take care. You take care as well, Dr. Mike. Dr. Mike, I said it again. Love saying Dr. Mike. It's good. We're good. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder,

information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers.

Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.