Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Psychology of Winning | Michael Johnson

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

What separates the athletes who perform when it matters most from those who don't... and can that difference be trained?Michael Johnson is one of the greatest sprinters in history: four-time Olympic gold medalist, nine-time World Champion, and the former world record holder in both the 200 and 400 meters. He was also, by his own account, one of the most psychologically prepared competitors the sport has ever seen.In this conversation with Dr. Michael Gervais, Michael takes us inside the hidden moments before the race, the call room, the gathering space beneath the stadium where eight finalists wait together in silence (or something far less than silence) before stepping out under the brightest lights in sport. He explains why the call room isn't just a logistical stop before the race. It's where the race is often decided. And he breaks down exactly how he prepared his mind to show up there.At the center of the conversation is a distinction that Michael discovered early in his career: the difference between being nervous and being scared. Nervousness, he came to understand, was fuel, a sign that he wanted it, that he was alive to the moment. Fear was something different. Fear meant he was underprepared. And once he understood that, he could do something about it.Michael shares how he used mental imagery, constantly, automatically, almost without thinking, to rehearse races until every scenario felt familiar. He explains how he learned to control his environment on race day, why Usain Bolt's pre-race routine was the polar opposite of his own (and worked just as well), and what it really means to master the controllables when the world's fastest sprinters are sitting two feet away trying to get into your head.The conversation also moves into the second half of Michael's life. Eight years ago, at age 50, he suffered a stroke that forced him to relearn how to walk. He reflects on how the same mental frameworks that made him a champion, recognizing small improvements, managing what he could control, and staying present in the process, carried him through that recovery. And he opens up about what the experience taught him: how to depend on people, how to let relationships go both ways, and why the things he'd always controlled most tightly weren't the things that mattered most.In this conversation, we explore:Why the call room is where races are won and lost, and how to navigate itThe difference between nervousness (fuel) and fear (a signal of underpreparation)How Michael used mental imagery every single day, without structure or scheduleWhy self-knowledge is the single most impactful factor in sustained performanceHow Usain Bolt's exact opposite approach led to the same outcome, and what that meansWhat a stroke at 50 taught Michael about control, vulnerability, and relationshipsThe call room is everywhere. Learn how to master it.__________________________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Master is brought to you by Defender. A lot of what we train here at Finding Mastery, it's pretty simple to understand, but it's not necessarily easy to do. I mean, choosing the next right step, building confidence through preparation and self-talk, getting out into the world and working with challenge instead of avoiding it or retracting from it. And that is the spirit that stands out to me about Defender. It is one of my favorite cars on the road for a reason.

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The only thing I miss about track is that nervousness. I learned how to control the nerves, and so because I can control it, I loved it. What happens in the moments just before the race, noise, the pressure, when everything that you've worked for is about to be tested. I know I can win. I don't know if I'm going to win, but we're about to find out. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Jervais. A high-performance psychologist named Michael Treveh. Who Pete Carroll brought into work with the Seahawks.

Famous for his work with Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of space in the Stratos Project. Olympic athletes depend on something more than just training and talent. They have to stay mentally tough. Today's conversation is with the legendary American sprinter Michael Johnson, four-time Olympic gold medalist, nine-time world champion, and the former world record holder in both the 200 and 400 meters. Michael takes us inside the call room, the gathering space just before the race.

A lot of races are won and lost in that room. Tell me more. In that moment, it is understanding what you can control, what you can't control, and understanding that I'm at my best when I am so focused on what I'm about to do that I can get to a point where nothing is going to distract me. How much imagery would you do the month leading up to a race? countless. It was at a point during my career where if I had an idle moment, there'd just being automatic gun just went off. I'm running a race. And later in the conversation, he shares

how a life-threatening health scare reshaped how he thinks about control. I'd learn how to walk again, everything. In that moment, our wife said, somebody said something about why did this happen to us, and we both were like, why not us? We've been so lucky. With that, let's jump into this week's conversation with the legend Michael Johnson. Okay, four-time gold medalists in the Olympics and two world titles. Is that right? Nine. Nine. You have nine? No, you don't have nine.

Nine. Nine world championship gold for Olympic goal. I'll go it over? No. No, that is remarkable. Yeah, I mean, in my mind, you're in the special zone of like achievement and accomplishment and obviously speed, but look, I've been wanting to sit down with you for a long time. Our paths have crossed over the years multiple times. I've always enjoyed the hellos, the, you know, how you doing, those conversations.

But you and I haven't had the chance to really dive into your psychology and how you've become extraordinary in your life, both what you did early. what you've been doing of late. And so I really do want to divide this conversation up into Master of Craft, call it part one, and then Master of Self, Part Two. What does it take? And this is a broad question.

I'm more curious about where you go than the actual answer at some point, but what does it take to be your very best? I've had a lot of time to think about my athletic career and my post-athletic career as a television commentator, as an entrepreneur. And if I think about, you know, what's the one single most impactful thing on any of the success I've had in any of those areas?

It's been understanding who I am as an individual at a very deep level that at this point I'm still discovering things. And so it's knowing, but also the desire to know. more. So like, you know, why do I react this way to certain things? When I'm in this situation, why do I feel anxious? Why does this particular thing scare me? So like when I was an athlete, early in my career, when I started to really show potential after college, now I'm a professional. I'm a pro track athlete. I'm ranked number one in the world, and I'm still getting a little bit scared before a race. And I was like, why am I scared? Because I was able to understand the difference

between being nervous and being scared. And every now and then, most of the time I was nervous. I was nervous before every race till the end. And describe your nervousness? Well, I'll describe it, but I'll tell you, people ask me now a lot. And since I retired, do you miss it? The only thing I miss about track is that nervousness. I miss. I miss. miss that because I was able to control it. I learned how to control the nerves. And so because I could control it, I loved it.

I loved that feeling of, all right, Olympic final, World Championship final, which I went nine. Well done. I had to. I had to. You know, but knowing that I can win this race. I know I can win. I don't know if I'm going to win, but we're about to find out. So that was your self-talk?

That was the truth. Yeah. That was the honest truth. I knew that I can win. I'm the best. I'm ranked number one in the world for a reason. I can win, but I have lost. And before I was the best, someone else was, and I beat them, they did lose.

You could lose on any given day. You could blow it, or someone could just have the race of their life. and both of those things could happen. You can lose. I mean, so that's not just self-talk. That was the truth. But what's also true is that it's why we have the race and we're going to find out.

And I think I'm going to come out on top, right? But I got to put the work in. I have to execute. But it was always that nervous, like, you know, I want this. And I, so the discovery for me early on when every now and then in the first couple of years of my professional career where I find myself in a situation where I'm not just nervous now. I'm scared.

I was like, what's that about? You know, why am I scared? And what I discovered was it was when I felt like I was underprepared and I knew it, right? Underprepared for what I was about to face because certain races take more preparation than others. And sometimes I felt like, I'm ready, you know, I'm prepared, I'm ready for this because I was always physically ready to go. It was never a time where I was physically unprepared, but sometimes I was mentally unprepared.

So if the competition was at, and it was when the competition was at an extremely high level, there was more at stake, more on the line. Olympic trials was one of the first ones. And then I felt like, yeah, I may be a little bit underprepared here. So from that, I was able to learn how I need to prepare for those races so that I'm not scared, so I don't feel underprepared. So I feel like, yeah, I'm absolutely ready to go. And I can be just as confident in my ability to execute in this race as I was in the others.

What I hear in there is you've separated scared from nervousness. I do want to understand the line between those or the difference between those for you. And because they're on the same continuum, you know, right? Like nervousness typically is on the continuum of fear. But what you're talking about scared, I want to understand the difference. And I also want to understand the way that you've separated physical and mental readiness or preparation. And so can you maybe start on the first one, which is like, what did nervousness feel like for you? When did it start and how did you work with it?

And then get to scared? Like, what's the difference between those two? Yeah. So for me, they're very different because I learned how to control the nerves. For me, the nerves came from knowing that I really, really want this. I really want when. I really want to win. And if you're not careful, the nerves start to control you.

And it becomes about more than just, I really want to win. And you start focusing on because what's the other side of that? I might lose, right? If you're not careful, you'll start spending too much time thinking about why you might lose. Right. So in that moment before a race, all eight finalists are, you finish your warm up. And you're gathered in a very small, confined space, the call room, right? And it's underneath the stadium.

You come from the warm-up track. You move into it, and they call everyone over. And then you end up, you know, going through all your checks with officials. And then they take you into this little small room. And it's just the eight-fineless in there. And the other seven are alpha competitive, the fastest, most intense. Especially in the sprints. You know, like just absolutely.

Yeah. Cheetah's ready to go. Yeah. So a lot of races are won and lost in that room. Tell me more. Right? So you're sitting there in this confined space moments before you're going to go out in race. Everybody in that room wants to win.

Only one's going to win. Right. So, you know, yeah, and there's always somebody who's, you know, just going or, you know, screaming and yelling and banging the wall, getting themselves ready and trying to intimidate, you know, everyone else. And in that moment, you could very easily get wrapped. up into why that guy might win or why that person might be ready today or why that's their day or why you might lose if you're not careful. In that moment, if you understand yourself,

you can start to understand how to navigate that particular time of the process because it's important, right? At this moment, there's no more practice. There's no more training. The only thing that's left now is this is the transition between warm-up, training is done, practice is done, you're at the meet, do your warm-up. Now, this is the moment between finishing the warm-up, which is that occupies your mind. You've got to do your warm-up. You've got to do all you. And that's an hour-plus process, right, working with your coach to get ready.

Everything from opening your hips up, stretching, kind of striding, you know, stretching, stretching, striding, doing some practice starts, you know, working on a couple of the technical things just get really, really sharp. That's right. But then the only thing after that is that's the transition between now, when the race starts, when the gun goes off, you know, look, I know, it looks like, you know, when the gun goes off and track, you know, and sprinting, the gun goes off, everybody just runs and, you know,

the first person to the finish line, line went and so, you know, it looks very, very simple. It is from a spectator standpoint, which makes it great. But there's a lot that goes on in the race. I mean, you've got to know in a 19-second 200-meter race, you have to know where you are on the track and you have an internal clock that says I need to be here at this particular time and if I'm two-tenths of a second off,

I need to know that. So you're constantly assessing where you are if you're hitting the right times, whether you make adjustments, you're able to make adjustments in the race, even in a 19-second race. In a nine-second 100-meter race, guys are making adjustments.

Wait, you're not flat-out sprinting as fast as you can go until a certain mark? Well, even if you're flat out in terms of speed, there is different intensities to which you do that. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, right. So, you know, there is no speed up and slow down necessarily, especially over 100 meters and 200 meters.

There's no speed up and slow down. But in order to be flat out the whole way, there's more intensity at some points and less at some points, right? So it's just like if you are driving your car and you press down on the accelerator to get to 60 miles per hour, you're pressing on the accelerate. At one point, you don't have to keep pressing on the accelerator to keep going 60. You just hold it, right?

But you've got to be very efficient to do that. The more work you do, the more gas it takes out of the tank, right? So anyway, in there, you want to understand how you get the best of yourself in that situation and how you mentally and emotionally prepare yourself for that moment. Right? And so I was able to understand early on that, you know, in that moment, what I need to be focused on, what my process needs to be in order for me to not get distracted and start thinking about why I might lose the race. It's not going to do me any good in this moment. The only thing that's going to help me in that moment is to be visualizing myself running that race.

I want to keep practicing. So that's what you're saying, like, during practice, your mind is occupied. You're doing things. Right. And then when you go into the call room and you are, this is the final touches, for readiness, you are... Physically, you're just sat there. You're not doing anything.

And so you're not looking around. You are in your internal zone, and you are seeing yourself come off the blocks with speed. Right. I'm visualizing myself running the race so that I can go through all of the different scenarios of how this race might unfold and how I'm going to react to those different things

in the race, so that when the race actually starts and one of those scenarios unfolds, I've already run it in my mind, and I can make the decision quickly because you don't have time. You have to make decisions and adjustments in the race, but it's a 19-second race. You don't have time to really think about it too much. You just got to make the decision and hope it's the right one. So let's stay on imagery for a minute.

How much imagery would you do the month leading up to a race? Countless. It was at a point during my career where if I had an idle moment where I wasn't doing something or watching a movie or something else wasn't a lot, occupying my mind, I'd probably just, there'd just be an automatic gun just went off. I'm running a race. Would you close your eyes to do your imagery? Not necessarily. Sometimes it's open. Yeah. And how long would your imagery sessions last? This is a mental training tool. It varies because, like I said, it got to a point for me where it was so automatic that I may

just run one race and then I'm off doing something else because that moment was only, you know, a minute or something. 19 seconds or maybe, you know, I'm just sitting here, you know, I'm doing that thing. And now I'm really consciously just thinking about racing. So I'm running different scenarios over the period of 30 minutes or so. So it varied. The key point there is that for me, it was such a part of what I was doing at the time that I wouldn't even be conscious of it and even just think about it, you know, before. I just would just, the next thing I know, a gun is sounding in my head, and I'm off to the races. So you didn't schedule time, like, okay, at 8 p.m., I'm going to settle down,

and I'm going to do five minutes of mental imagery or 15 minutes of mental imagery. It was more fluid in the rhythm of your day. Yeah. But again, there probably wasn't a day that went by where I wasn't running races in my head at some point during the day. Could you see it and feel it and smell it? Could you get smell involved? not smell necessarily, I don't think, but when I think back to it, certainly see it, feel it, absolutely.

Because a lot of racing is feel. Yeah. It's feel. The reason why hearing it after the gun probably isn't very much, because even in a real race, with a crowd going while, when that silence happens when the starter says, runners take your mark, when you're so focused on reacting to the gun,

you have to hear it, but you're not really listening for it, you're reacting to it. And once you hear it and you react, there's just silence in the race until you cross the finish time. That's the level of focus. So I don't hear anything. Can you hear, if you play it back even right now, can you hear your breathing and the cadence of your breathing? No. No, you can't hear like the wind ripping it across your jersey or no.

If I could, that means I wasn't focused on the execution of the race. This is all about the feel of the race, how my body is feeling from an endurance standpoint, a speed endurance, beholding that speed, which is all related to technique. You only have so much focus. You have a finite ability to focus, right? And it takes so much to understand and have this internal clock and understand where I am on the track and at what time am I, you know, in terms of the splits and intervals. the feel in terms of how much energy am I executing and how much do I have left?

Am I exerting too much at this point of the race, am I not? While all of those things are going on, you're also having to try to maintain proper racing technique. So you're focused on that. Your body's symmetry, what this arm is doing, relaxing different parts of your body to get more effort out of other parts of your body. All of those things are going on. at the same time as you're still in a race with seven other people. So you still have to keep your eye on them to make sure you know what they're doing to determine whether you're not you make any adjustments to them.

So the level of focus that it takes to do that, I've never experienced that in anything else. And so it's funny. It's like if you say, do you hear the wind? If I did, that means I'm not focused on this enough. There you go. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. If you followed our work here at Finding Mastery for a while,

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I really hope you'll check them out. And who was your near peer at that time? Who was your closest competitor? Every year, it was somebody different. In my 11 years competing as a professional over three different Olympics, five different world championships over that time, and then all the races in between. Every couple of years, there was someone new.

So when I first started, it was Carl Lewis. Carl was established in his career. Then Frankie Frederick's Namibian sprinter, silver in the 100, 200 meters, in 1992 and 1996. Doesn't get enough credit for that. But he pushed me harder than most. Butch Reynolds over the 400 meters,

world record holder in the 400, Quincy Watts, 92 Olympic champion in the 400 meters. There was a lot of folks over the, over my career, that came in and out. And when Carl Lewis was on your heels or your shoulder to shoulder, and maybe he took one stride ahead of you, and you've still got half the race to go,

what is happening for you there? Because this is applicable to, I think, all of us, when we have somebody that we feel like we're competing against. And I want to compete with myself. I love doing it around other people, but I really want to compete with myself to be my best. And when I get somebody close to me, I'm like, I know it does something to me, though.

And so I don't really want it to be that way, but it does. And so what did it do for you? That's the interesting thing about track and as a metaphor for competition and a lot of other areas of life is that it's probably the one sport or at least one of the sports where you're constantly having to sort of blend the two where you're competing not necessarily against yourself, but your best chance for success and winning is making sure that your execution is as good as it can possible. be because there's not really anything you can do about the other person. You run your race. You're in your lane. So you have to be constantly aware of making sure. So when that athlete is, you know, Carl Lewis is on my shoulder, I have to make sure that if I'm already running the race that I plan to execute, that I have to make a decision at that point. And it's a fine line. At that point, do I make any adjustments in my race based on what he's doing?

if I'm already doing what I need to do. But also, there's a point in the race where it's like, okay, now I can just race, right? But it usually comes towards the end of the race and the 200 meters. And again, one of the things that makes me unique is that the 200 and 400 are so different. Like if at the end of the race, I'm shoulder to shoulder, there's a point, if it's within the last 30 meters or so,

I can just race. Because you got the 400. I can just, well, but, yeah. I can just race. Is that the difference between boxing and fighting? Some guys are fighters and some guys are boxers? I think it's the same. I think it's the same.

I think there's some point in a boxing match, but it's rare, where you can just fight. Yeah. But most points in that match, if you start fighting, you're going to get knocked out. Yeah. You need to be a technician. Same thing with track. If you just start racing and you don't have, you're not executing the strategy and you don't understand what race strategy is going to lead you to your fastest time because it's still all

about the fastest time, right? It's going to win. Then that's probably going to lose you to race if you just start racing. What makes a great competitor? I think somebody who knows how to get the best from themselves in that competitive scenario. So, you know, it's all about getting your absolute best performance. So in track, a lot of times what you will find is, you know, you'll have 20 races in the season, but one of them is the Olympic final.

You'll have an athlete who runs fast times all year long, and then Olympic final didn't come anywhere close to that time and finished outside of the medals. How did you continually time and time and time again put yourself in a position psychologically to be great in what other people would consider, you know, the brightest lights, the highest stakes, competitive environment in track and field? figuring out learning early, how to get the best from myself, how to get myself in the, so first and foremost, training, understanding how to train, physical training with my coach, understanding how to train to get the best from myself physically. What do we need to do in terms of our training program on a daily, weekly, monthly basis to be ready for the season, to have optimized speed optimize strength, optimized power, to be able to go and run the fastest times that I'm capable of running. That's one.

Then figuring out how to get myself into the right emotional and mental state going into this pressure-cooked environment and being able to not get distracted, being able to manage the nerves and the pressure and go in and still execute the best race that I'm capable of racing. And like you all hear athletes, I just heard, you know, an athlete the other day who didn't do well in the Winter Olympics. So, you know, before that race, you know, I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to treat it like any other, any other race. It's not any other race.

And you can't fool yourself into believing that this is any other race. And so if your preparation, the whole time is, I'm going to treat this like any other race. other race, any other race, and then you get to the race, and it is far from any other race. The entire environment is different. The competition is different. The entire situation is different. The lights are brighter. The sounds and the distractions are greater.

Everything is bigger. You're not going to be prepared. It's interesting, because I've seen it work both ways successfully and unsuccessfully. This is just another race, and this is the biggest show on it. I am biased towards an assessment that once you're on the track, it's just like every other race. And that circus, though, there are lots of differences. There's more people watching. There's more cameras.

And it's not an environment that's designed for high performance. It's a media environment. And all of those factors need to be accounted for. But the race itself is still the 19 point whatever seconds. And so I'm biased to lean. I think you and I, our approach would be different. I am biased to lean on the other side, which is like, no, we got to keep this thing as normal as we can the way we're thinking about it. This is not the final race.

If you lose this race, for the most part, nobody is taking you hostage. I know there has been wild cases in the Olympics of, you know, bizarre consequences of losing. But, you know, like your job is to go be you at your very best. And that's something we can train on Tuesday and Thursday and whatever, you know, semifinals and finals. And I've been fortunate to be across four Olympic Games, summer games, in different sports. And there are differences amongst the sports. What I like to do is align at the beginning of the quad, a beginning of the four years, with the team and the athletes, like, which way do you want to go about this?

And then call out the pitfalls for both sides. And then train according to that philosophy. So if it's the biggest show, to your point, then we better create some distrable. and practice three years before, three months before. We better create some things for you to really experience that level of intensity and scrutiny well before. So you're practiced with it, which is hard to do, actually. I want to go back to how you prepare yourself psychologically and emotionally to be your

best in a highly competitive environment. What are the actual things that you do to help yourself be more calm and more focused? Expect the unexpected. control what you can control and realize that, you know, these are the things that I can control. These are the things that I can't control. So I don't spend any time, and we're talking again, in that moment after training and practice has all been done, right? And look, just back to that. I will go back to that point for just a second.

Training, same way I've always trained, whether it's Olympic year or not Olympic year. The weeks before the Olympic final, same training is before. any other race, right? Because that works. Execution of the race, same execution of the race, right? But that moment, and we've talked a lot about this, because for me, it is the critical moment. Are we talking about the ready room? Yes. The call room. That moment is the critical moment. And that's where it has to be an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation is that this is different. I want it more. The nerves may be more.

I need to have even more control, right, in this moment. Of your thoughts. Exactly. Okay. So in that moment, I think it is, you know, an understanding of the reality of the situation. It is understanding what you can control, what you can't control. And you need to be, for me, it was understanding that. I'm at my best when in that moment I am so focused on what I'm about to do that I can get to a point

where nothing is going to distract me. There aren't going to be any distractions because I've already gotten myself into that sort of state. And that's where I perform at my best when I'm in that situation. Now, this is called an ideal competitive mindset. You just gave, and I think I felt it. Did you just tap into it a little bit when you're speaking? Yeah. You did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just felt that. I was like, oh, shit. Like, here it is. Yeah. That's me. So, Usain Bolt is who broke my 200-meter world record. He was the big name track athlete after I retired.

And I remember talking to him once early in his career. And I said, you know, you, everybody's seen him out there before. and he's the greatest entertainer. You know, he's the greatest runner ever and the greatest entertainer, which made him so fascinating to watch, right? As a track athlete myself, you know, I just watch him like, this is,

I just be into it, right? You know, it's like, because he's such an entertainer. And it looks like, you know, when he's out there, he's just playing around to the camera and doing all of these things before the biggest moment of his life. And I said, what are you thinking about in that moment?

And he said to me, he said, I was younger and I watched you and you were really serious and focused and I tried to do that and it made me so nervous that I would run tight. And he realized and he learned that to get the best out of himself, he needed to play around, not, you know, and he needed to find and create distractions and learn to do that. And that was his routine. And if you watch him, he's out there kind of smiling at the cameras and doing all of these things,

you know, right behind the blocks before the Olympic final. And when the starter says, runners take your mark, then it is completely different. Now he's focused. But if he gets focused too early, it gets really tight and runs tight. And he learned that about himself early. I learned about myself early that I need to be absolutely focused, no distractions, not thinking about anything else. What a cool insight, because we all have our ideal competitive mindset,

that loosen focus versus like intense. Some are super chill like nothing matters. But whatever that approach is, there's still an intensity that is required to be able to do the thing well, the deep focus and intensity. So your mechanism was on deep focus so that you could get into that rock solid place

that nothing pulls you your focus, no matter what somebody else is doing in the call room. Do you have a moment where you were a disaster in the call room that I could learn from? Yes, absolutely. Olympic year in 1992, this was my first Olympics, Frankie Fredericks, who I mentioned earlier, he's my number one rival.

And we were at a race probably beginning of the season, probably three months before the Olympics, maybe four. And he's never beaten me before. I've been undefeated against him for two solid years. And we're in the call room, and everybody's, kind of quiet. He said something. And I don't even remember what it was, what he said, that he said. And he was just being nice. And it was just something about something that was going on. And I remember

acknowledging that and being nice back and just not focused on what I needed to be. And I lost that race by 200th of a second. And you credit it to not being all in in your focus. It's convenient for me to credited to that. It could have been anything else could have been, you know, but I realized at that point, that's not who I want to be. That's not what I want to be in that moment. What I want to be in that moment is absolutely focused. And so there were times after that where I had one competitor in the 400 who would want to get everyone, all of us around, to pray before the 400 meters. and I'm a nice person. I don't want to offend anyone.

And it took everything in me to just go, that's not happening with me. Even if everybody else does it, it's just I'm going to sit over here by myself, and which I did. You know, because in this moment, that's just not where I want to be. That's not where I need to be in order for me to be at my best.

And regardless of whether that means everybody around here thinks that I'm an asshole or whatever that makes them think about, me. I don't care. And that was where I wanted to be to where in that moment, I don't care about anything else. Cell phones came in the latter part of my career, not the beginning. I never had my cell phone with me in that moment because I don't want to hear about anything. I don't want to get a call from anyone. I don't want to, you know, and wonder what that call was about or whether that's something I should have taken and I don't want to be in that position. Okay, I want to take a quick minute here to talk about finding mastery.

If you are leading a team right now, you already know that strategy, execution, priorities, accountability, those matter. And what I've seen time and time again is that organizations don't rise or fall to the plan alone. Of course not. They rise and fall to the internal conditions of the people that are carrying the plan. That's the inner game that I'm pointing to. And the teams that invest in their psychological skills, they're the ones that are best prepared to navigate dynamic environments like the one we're all living in right now.

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Again, that's LinkedIn.com slash mastery. Terms and conditions apply. What you're describing is with the, you know, the prayer bit is that there's a pressure to conform that many of us do feel. And what sits underneath of that is this deep, ancient desire to want to belong, to be accepted, to not be rejected. And the fear of other people's opinions is such a strong fear that we will do a lot of things that are maybe not in our best interest, but it's more convenient at the time to go

along with the crowd, to go along with the influence of another person. For folks that struggle with FOPO, fear of people's opinions, what guidance would you give them? Think about the number of stupid people out there in the world. There are a lot of really stupid people out there. Caring what they think makes you pretty stupid. I mean, because I do care about what people think. It's one of the things I have to constantly remind myself of. And you guys ask me to write on the wall.

That's what I wrote. Oh, you did? Yep. Yeah, for the listener, we've got a wall of all of the true masters that come through here and just to share a pearl of wisdom or a philosophy of life. And you shared about that. Something about staying true to yourself. Stop caring about what stupid people think about.

Oh, you did say. Because that's my problem that I constantly deal with. Yeah. Trying to make sure that I don't. I mean, there are people that, you know, I mean, I care what people think, but I care what people think too much sometimes. And that's something that I struggle with. So for me as well, and I draw the line between worrying and caring.

And so we need to care about each other. And we need to care about the other person's experience around us. But this excessive worry, like, am I okay in the eyes of others, is something that is very debilitating. And so that's what you're pointing to. Yeah. And I think that the other difference is who are the people that you're worrying about or caring about what they think? I mean, the people that are close to me, you know, and I have to constantly remember. When you're in the public eye, you can quickly get wrapped into what people think about you or say about you.

When you don't even know those people and they're not even, you know, a part of your life and they're a troll on social media and which makes them probably a stupid person, if they're trolling people on social media, I'll have to admit that sometimes I will think about and care about what they think and I have to try to just, you know, that does not matter, right? This is probably why you are so committed to self-discovery to really know yourself. And I'm wondering if that's one of the ways that you've sustained mastery for so long is, I wonder if one of the insights in plain view or the quote unquote secrets, I don't think there's secrets, period. But the thing that's in plain view is your commitment to self-discovery, to really know yourself. Would you say that's one of the reasons you've sustained?

Absolutely. And being vulnerable about it as well. And being true about the things that you struggle with, or that you, you know, don't understand about yourself. Yeah, that continued discovery of self and spending a lot of time, a lot of introspection, you know, is probably, again, as I said at the very beginning, and that's one of the things that I think, you know, has been paramount in any of my success. Do you have somebody you do it with, or do you have a process that's repeatable for somebody else to learn from?

It's a lot of time with myself. When I was young, I was pretty shy. So it's born out of that, always thinking about, you know, myself and thinking about, you know, what I'm doing. But also that's when that, what does everybody else think of me? You know? Right. That anxiety. Yeah, exactly.

So that's the balance, right? So it's been good for me on the one hand. But it's also something that I've had to, that I've struggled with as well. But then I have really good friends who've known me forever that are helpful in, you know, that I talk to. My wife, I spent a lot of time talking to my wife. both are kind of similar in that sense of, you know, wanting to understand ourselves better, you know, keeps you grounded, keeps you sane, you know. I've found that it's just an extremely useful tool for navigating life, you know, when you don't know what's going to happen next and,

you know, shit gets thrown at you, you know, the better you understand yourself, the better you are able to deal with it. I think there's two main buckets in psychology. If psychology is the study of yourself, the figuring you out, right? Self-discovery and then there's a whole host of psychological skills. You've mentioned many of them in the conversation. They've just been kind of sitting right on the surface, which is, I call it master the controllables. You're saying control the controllables, same thing. We should probably identify what some of those are for you, you know, like what are the things that are most important. You did talk about self-talk. You talked about mental imagery. You talked about working well with emotions. And those are all skills. And the more you know

yourself, it's like you get the big rocks in the container. And once you really, really, really know yourself, nobody can ever take that away from you. So it's really hard to move those folks around, whether you're in a ready room or call room and someone's screaming and yelling, hootin and hollering, and you're like, no, I know myself. And that's theirs thing. My thing is coming in and just feeling that spark in me, you know, that when I'm running at easy speed and it's amazing. And whatever they're doing is not my, it's not my thing. And then when you come up from that, I can imagine you are absolute force to be reckoned with. Like there was no one moving you off the block. Right. Right. And you had all of the requisite behind you physical and technical mastery that when you dialed in

that psychological deep focus, you had a full package. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. The way you describe it better than I do. No, I think we spent a lot of time thinking about this. But no, that that's exactly it. And it comes from a place. I think it comes more natural for someone like me because for whatever reason, I'm a bit of a control freak. I feel more comfortable when I'm in control. What are you trying to control? What are those things? I'm trying to control as much of my environment and my destiny as I possibly can.

How do you do that? Because you can't control the environment. You have no – I mean, I guess – So I discovered most of this when I was an athlete. It discovered a little bit more as I've continued on after in my post-athletic career. But as an athlete, for example, in the warm-up area, the day of a race, there's always, you know, I can go down, I'm in a hotel, lots of other athletes. And then most races, there's a place where we all go to eat. And, you know, we, it's a ballroom catered and everybody eats in there, not like the hotel restaurant, but only for the athletes.

And I would go in there. I got friends in there, you know, whatnot. You know, we sit sometimes. We sit down. you know, we eat, you know, on race day, I don't want to be around. I want to control my own environment. I want to control the conversations I have. I want to control who I'm talking to.

I want to control whether I have to talk to anyone at all. I want to control my environment. On race day, I'm always ordering room service. I see. Stay in my room. Yeah, I see. My coach, my manager, my physical therapist, and my strength coach, all of those people are part of my team.

they know that I don't want to get into any small talk on race day. When we leave the hotel, I know what time I want to leave, coach decided we've decided together. My track coach and I are the main ones making all of the decisions, right? Everyone else on the team sort of coach communicates to them. This is what we're doing. This is a schedule. And, you know, we all get in a van together, their driver,

it's taking us to the track. No small talk. I don't want to get any small talk. Clear boundaries, clear rules. Yeah. This is how I want to be. And then when I get to the track, chill for a bit, we got a routine. And I want to control as much of that environment. And I don't want anybody coming over to do small talk with me. So my team knows, you know, if somebody's coming over, you know, wants to talk to Michael, they're going to say, hey, you know what, not right now. Talk to you later. One of the Olympic teams I work with when one of the athletes had one earphone in, yeah, chit chat's cool. But, like, yeah, it'd be kind of quick. because I'm getting geared up. No headphones and no problem.

Yeah. Okay. One, just kind of, two lights out. Like I'm in, you know. And so that was a signal to everybody. And so everyone could help create that little boundary around her, which is like, hey, do you mind if I, let me see. Oh, she got two headphones.

No, no. Yeah. But she's got one. Be quick. Yep. Or there's none. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. Yeah. So like there's. Yeah. Okay. So my team knew, like, you know, based on the amount of time before call time. You know, 30 minutes before, there's nothing.

There's nothing. There's unwritten rules. Yeah. So you've been an obviously world leading athlete. And you are incredibly successful entrepreneur as well. If we knew what you knew about operating in high stress environments, how would we be better in modern life? Which is there's plenty of stress for all of us. Yeah.

If you knew as much about yourself as I know about myself, you'd probably be pretty good, you know, in high stress environment, in times of uncertainty, in pressure-packed moments, and when you're trying to deliver your best, you know, because, again, that is, to me, the single most impactful thing on all of my success is understanding myself in a way that allows me to get. the best from Michael in the moment. And it sounds to me like when like you don't have like a structured program for self-discovery. It's something that is constantly running as an operating system. Like, oh, that's interesting that I was nervous there or that I didn't know what to say there or I was on a glad path. And then it sounds like you're constantly like tuning and then figuring out what did I do to put me in that situation, whether it's favorable or unfavorable, useful or unuseful. Yeah, I'd say, you know, I'm pretty hyper aware of my actions, of my environments, of my thoughts. Are you more aware of your actions or your inner experience?

Or equally the same? Equally the same. Yeah. So awareness is a superpower, I think, that you've, we're talking about self-discovery, but really you're with awareness. Right. Yes, exactly. You know, I wouldn't say that it's totally unstructured because I'm so interested in the space. but I'm also looking at other people a lot, you know, and sort of, you know, what they get right, what they get wrong, because I'm very interested in this space and always have.

So it's not just me. It's almost a hobby as well, you know. Talk about curiosity. It feels like you're a really curious person. Only about certain things. That's one of the things that, like, I would love to be more curious about more things, but I'm not naturally. I'm curious about the things that I'm really interested in, and this is one of them. You know, people's journeys to success, how they deal with obstacles, how they deal with stress, how people succeed. It's really interesting to me. I'm very curious about that area. Very curious about myself, which sounds weird, but I am because I always want to be the best I can be.

I wanted to be the best athlete I could be. I wanted to be the best father I could be. You want to be the best entrepreneur I can be. I've always been very curious about, you know, myself and my own ability to succeed, to overcome, you know. When your coach says to you, Michael, I got something. I think it's going to change everything. And I think we're going to squeak out a couple tenths of a second, and this is going to be a gain changer. But that means that you're going to need to come off the blocks on your opposite foot.

And we're going to change that. Do you go into curious mindset? Do you go into defensive mindset? Oh, 1,000 percent curious. Yeah, I mean, for that, I mean, like, do you get excited? Like, tell me more. Like, what do you mean?

Yeah. So when I was competing, yeah, I mean, I was obsessive about finding the thousands of a second because that's what's going to make you better. That's what's going to win races. I was absolutely obsessed with it. And I crave those moments when, you know, coach would give me criticism, you know, that whole idea of craving criticism. That was absolutely me. I don't need coach to tell me how great I am.

I need him to tell me where, you know, that was not great. That's where the improvement comes from. And so, yeah. And like every year, my coach and I would sit down at the beginning of the year and I tell him, you know, here's what I want to do this year. This is the big goal this year, break the world record. to 400 meters or whatever. And he would say, okay, you know, let me think about what that's going to take, what we're going to need to change from a training standpoint.

And it was always something, okay, if we're going to do this better, we're going to do more, we're going to essentially run faster. This is what it's going to take. This is the sacrifice you're going to have to make. And I would make the decision at that point. That sacrifice, something I'm willing to do. And that's the other thing. It's commitment.

You know, people talk a lot about, you know, committing to, you know, It's easy to commit to the goal that I want to be the world record holder. When coach lays out all of these things, we're going to have to change. That's where the commitment comes in. You've got to commit to that stuff, right? When I decided I wanted to go for gold medals in the 200 and 400 and make history and become the first person to win gold in the 400 meters and 200 meters at the Olympics, I'd add a whole other training session every day.

And then also we went from five days a week training to six days a week training. at the back that up. I'm going to start doing that now two months earlier than I normally would. So those are the sorts of things like, okay, that's a lot. But that's what you got to commit to. What scares you the most? Being unprepared. How did you prepare for this conversation?

I'm not scared of you. You're such a nice guy. I was like, you know, this would be easy. I do this so much, and I love talking about this, that, you know, my preparation for this was minimal, just driving over thinking, All right, you know, what I think we're going to talk about and how can I be helpful to people. What role do you want to take in the world now?

I'm trying to get there now where, you know, I am helping people with my experience more. You know, my entrepreneurial days, the phase that I started that when I was in my early 30s, right after my track career, that's exactly where I wanted to be and what I wanted to be doing. Now I'd rather be, in less time, building things myself and helping others build whatever it is that they're building. So that's something that folks that are inspired by the way you're thinking and the knowledge base that you have and the commitment to excellence that you embody that if they're looking to get something off the ground, you would be a good companion in that. Or they're already kind of, I don't know, three cycles into funding and they've got some real skills. Yeah. I mean, look, I spend a lot of time with entrepreneurs.

I spend a lot of time with corporate America as well doing different, you know, keynote speeches and things like that. But yeah, just trying to help people cut through the bullshit because there's so much out there, you know, I think in this space, which that, that, you know, is important to me, you know, to help people. Typically, people will look at someone like me and say, well, he's done this at this highest level as an athlete. So anything that he says is probably golden, right? There's a lot of people who have done it at the highest level. And what they have to say isn't really golden because they only have their one perspective. but they believe that that one perspective can universally be applied to everyone. You have that now with not just athletes but entrepreneurs.

You know, okay, I, you know, sold my company for, you know, $10 billion. That doesn't mean that you know everything in your particular way of building your company and how you did it and how you succeeded may not be everyone else's journey. So like the example I gave when you same boat's the greatest sprinter of all time, you know. You know, he didn't do it the way that I did. He did the exact opposite, right? But at the core, what we both realize is that we have to figure out what works for us and how we get ourselves in the right mental and emotional state in that moment

to be able to deal with the pressure of that moment. Can you talk about relationships and how they sit in your life? Relationships have always been important in my life. I have three sisters and one brother. They're all older than me. I grew up with them. They've always been my best friends. They've always been my closest confidence.

I'm the youngest, so I took a lot of crap from them. And so when I was, you know, fastest man in the world, I was still taking crap from them. And I love that, and it's always been really important for me. I know that I can go to them with anything. My coach, who was really the only coach I ever had, He passed away last year just ran back in November of the great life. It was like a second father to me.

And my dad, I was very close to my dad. My dad was my role model growing up. And we definitely went through that cycle of, you know, child becomes the parent. The parent becomes a child at the end of his life. And I'm having it, you know, I don't know if you should do that, you know, kind of thing. You know, like, you know, but it was great, you know, throughout. I always valued that relationship. And, you know, my coach, relationships have always been.

extremely important to me. And they've always been a very valuable part of my life and probably also one of the reasons why I've been able to be successful because I've had people that have been so important to me that have also helped me to understand. And when everybody just saw me and my identity as a fastest man in the world, those people saw me as my brother, you know, as my son or my friend. Is there a practice that you have found to be valuable to invest in relationships that matter to you? I've learned because I'm always learning about myself. So eight years ago, I had a stroke. Bodymaster is brought to you by AMP.

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to get your morning mindset routine. Right? Came out of nowhere. Now it's in great shape. I was working out one day. So again, this weird feeling, weird sensation. finally decided to say, I know my body, something doesn't feel right. And my wife was like, yeah, let's go to the emergency room.

Out of an abundance of caution, thinking it's going to be nothing. There's a stroke. I had to learn how to walk again, everything, right? And in that moment, I learned I have to depend on people more instead of always having them depend on me. I felt most comfortable when people would depend on me and I didn't have to depend on anyone. didn't want to have to depend on anyone. And I remember my wife and one of my really good friends, you know, saying, you got to let people do for you and help you.

At that point, I'm laying in the hospital and I can't walk. I might as well, right? And I learned in that moment, you know, that I've got to be more dependent on people and allow myself to depend on these, you know, relationships that I have and have it a little bit more both ways. And that's been really valuable for me. But I say that to say that I constantly, I'm just trying to. I mean, I was 50 at that point when I learned to depend on people more in relationships.

Right. And that's what the relationship is there for, you know. Wow. It's the tenderness when you talk about this. Yeah. It was, I mean, that experience was a really interesting one for me in that. And, like, people say, oh, what did you learn from that? You know, did you learn to appreciate, you know, life more?

I was already very appreciative of the life that I have, which is one of the things that got me through that. I remember we were in the hospital at one point. My wife said, somebody said something about why did this happen to us? And we both were like, why not us? We've been so lucky, you know. And I said that. And my wife's like, you're the only person that would say something like this in that moment, right? And she was like, but you're right.

You know, we've been so lucky. And, you know, I think it's that sort of perspective, you know, that allows you to, you know, I've been extraordinarily narrowly fortunate in my life. So I've never taken that for granted. And I think that that is what allowed me to get through that moment the way that I did. It was a really tough, you know, health is, and we first talked like, how does everything going? I'm like, oh, health is good. And, you know, and that's one of the most important things. In that point, it was, it was definitely in jeopardy for me. I wasn't in control, which is very important to me. And it was one of those situations where, you know, I was able to get through it because of all of the things that I learned. And I was able to,

really apply what I learned as an athlete to getting back to 100% able to walk again, able to run again and do all the things and get back my quality of life. If I didn't have that experience as an athlete where I was able to recognize, you know, those tiny small improvements and things like that, I don't know that I would have been able to fully recover from it. Thank you for reminding us of that. And the tenderness that you have when you describe that part of your life and how important it is to be vulnerable in relationships because,

we all want to have meaningful relationships, but if we don't open ourselves up to them, people never really get to know us. And so we kind of skim on the surface, and it's a hard thing to do. So thank you for that. Just to kind of round out, the last questions, is that can I just give you a thought stem and you give like one or two word answers to a few things? Yeah, I'll try. It all comes down to execution.

Success is? Never straightforward. Failure is. A certainty. A certainty? What does that mean? You're going to fail at some point. Cool. If you could name a boat, what would you name it?

For sale. You never buy a boat, rent it. Well done. Well done. Money is? Important, but not everything. Relationships are? Everything. I'm most curious about. Ooh, it's going to sound weird myself.

I do think that that is true for you. But I don't think it's a narcissistic thing. I think it's like, no, this is complicated. And I know that if I can sort it out to be just a little bit better, I'm going to be better for other people. That's exactly, yeah. Better for other people, better for it. Selfishly better for myself.

I want to win. Yeah. I want to win. And if I want to win, I got to figure out, I mean, it's up to me. I have figured out how to get the best for myself. What a breath of fresh air, Michael. Thank you for capturing how you have.

have been so special across definitely track and feel, but in business and in life, and to put it in words for us and be able to tell it in stories, but also get down to like the process of how you're getting better and how you have become one of the best in the world across multiple domains. So Michael, thank you for coming through. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I enjoyed it. Yeah, it's great. This is fun. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Dr. Jason Fung, physician, fasting expert, and best-selling author of The Obesity Code. In his latest book, The Hunger Code, Dr. Fung explains why so many traditional weight loss strategies fail, not because people lack discipline, but because they're working

against their own biology. He breaks down how hunger, hormones, and modern eating patterns shape weight gain and what we should actually be doing to improve our metabolic health and lose weight. Join us Wednesday, April 8th at 9 a.m. Pacific, only on finding mastery. All right. Thank you. so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider

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The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to a lot. explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community. Share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers.

Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well. Think well. Keep exploring.