Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Psychology Of YouTube Success | Michelle Khare

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

What does it look like to bet on yourself, embrace reinvention, and build a YouTube channel that reaches millions?Michelle Khare is the creator and host of Challenge Accepted, the award-winning YouTube series where sherains with elite performers, athletes, and professionals to take on some of the world’s toughest stunts and professions. But this conversation goes far beyond spectacle. It’s about the psychology underneath the performance: how Michelle prepares for high-pressure environments, how she thinks about failure, and how she’s built a serious creative business without losing the joy at the center of it. In this conversation, Michelle shares how her path began at the intersection of two demanding worlds: working as a video producer by day while competing as a professional cyclist at night. Out of that tension, she created something new — a format that blends physical challenge, storytelling, and deep iteration. She talks about the early trial-and-error phase of building her channel, the importance of owning her own IP, and why many creators don’t realize they’ve already become entrepreneurs. Michelle also opens up about what it means to fail in public. She explains why growth often depends on being willing to look unpolished in front of other people, how she identifies her “strategic advantages” in unfamiliar environments, and why the low points — not just the polished outcomes — are what actually make a story worth telling. Along the way, she offers a compelling look at how she built a YouTube channel with over 5.4 million loyal subscribers. In this conversation, we explore:Why courage becomes more useful when it is systematizedHow Michelle built Challenge Accepted by blending athletics, storytelling, and businessWhy willingness to fail publicly can become a competitive advantageHow to identify your “strategic advantages” in unfamiliar environmentsWhy relationships, feedback, and team culture are essential to longevityHow to elevate the YouTube creator space into a respected part of the entertainment industryThis is a conversation about courage, yes, but also about design. How do you build a life where courage is not occasional, but trainable? How do you stay ambitious without burning out? And how you can keep evolving while staying grounded in the people and principles that matter most.__________________________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I became the second person in the world to replicate Tom Cruise's stunt, hanging off the side of a military aircraft as it's taking off. No goggles, no helmets, no parachute. What separates people who get stuck after a setback from those who reinvent themselves and keep moving forward? I was working a day job as a video producer for another YouTube channel and then moonlighting as a professional cyclist. I kind of got to this point where I felt like I had to choose between one or the other

and I didn't want to. So blending those two things together is where YouTube came about. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Jerva. A high-performance psychologist named Michael Jerva. Who Pete Carroll brought into work with the Seahawks. Famous for his work with Felix Baumgartner

when he jumped out of space in the Stratos Project. Olympic athletes depend on something more than just training and talent. They have to stay mentally tough. Today's guest is Michelle Carrey. Creator and host of Challenge Accepted, the award-winning YouTube series where she trains with elite performers and athletes and professionals to take on some of the most demanding physical and mental challenges. Michelle doesn't just document fear. She studies it. She prepares for it and then she meets it head on. The limiting beliefs and the negative self-talk, the anxiety, those are all tools of information for what you are missing in order to be brave. We explore how Michelle has built a serious, sustainable business in the YouTube creator space without burning out.

I really want to upend the understanding of what it means to make content online and challenge what that means. When they hear online content creator, I want them to think of the cool and incredible things that not only our team, but many teams on YouTube are doing. And it's very different from the stereotypical expectation you have from 10 years ago. This is the hard question. Are you ready? Challenge accepted. What is one thing that you learned from working on top cruise? At the end of our conversation, shook my hand, looked me in the eyes, and said, so with that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Michelle Carrey.

Michelle. Yes. Yes. It is odd. What a fun jacket. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much.

I mean, I wanted to give the visual watchers something interesting to look at. Yeah. So if you're listening on Spotify only, be sure to turn the video on, right? Yeah, that's great. Okay. For folks that might not have appreciated what you've done to date, how do you describe in your own words what you do and how you're going about doing it? So can you just put in your own words like what you do? I host a show called Challenge Accepted, and it's all about me trying the

world's toughest stunts and professions, which range from attending Secret Service Academy to mastering Harry Houdini's deadliest magic trick, to most recently attempting Tom Cruise. a stunt from Rogue Nation. And throughout the process, we make these in-depth documentaries about everything behind the scenes that happens. My personal journey, the wins, the failures, and the successes. Well done. Can you give me an example of some of the stunts that you're doing and maybe paint a little picture for each one of them? Yeah, absolutely. So it all started by me writing all of my fears on a whiteboard and then connecting each fear to a potentially extreme circle. where I could confront it head on. So a couple examples. To confront my fear of confrontation,

I trained with an Olympic boxer for several months and then boxed in a sanction match in front of 15,000 people. To confront my fear of looking unintelligent, I studied with a chess grandmaster for 10 months to participate in a tournament live stream to 100,000 people. I have also attempted Harry Houdini's deadliest magic trick. And most recently, I became the second person in the world to replicate Tom Cruise's stunt from Mission Impossible Rogue Nation, where if you're unfamiliar, he is hanging off the side of a military aircraft as it's taking off. No goggles, no helmet, no parachute. What is the toughest stunt to date and what makes it so?

That's actually a surprisingly difficult question to answer because in some ways going to clowning school was very, very challenging. because for that episode, I painted my face like a clowns, studied with clowns for a month, and then performed in front of an audience. So that's one example of difficulty. I mean, the chess example is a lot of studying. But I think the project I'm most proud of is definitely our plane stunt that just came out. For that project, we spent months getting permission from the FAA, from a private plane owner. We worked with the Avatar stunt team to rig me safely to the side of this aircraft. It was a crew of 50 people on the day.

I'm exceptionally proud of the way that that edit came together and turned out. Was that a consequential environment? Of course things could go wrong. Maybe drill into a consequence that we might not understand. There are many that I think when you look at that stunt, you think the most difficult part is overcoming the fear. And certainly when I was up there looking down at the earth, 2,000 people below me, I was like, this is nuts. But there were many intricate details that we had to consider besides wind, weather, et cetera. One example is because you're not wearing goggles to perform this stunt.

I had to get custom contacts fabricated, scleral contact lenses that I didn't really know this was a thing before I did this. And we had to have a dedicated person on set called a lens technician. And their entire job was to insert and remove these lenses before and after any rehearsals or the stunt itself. And this is to mitigate for any dust or debris in the air because you have no other eye production. Yeah. So if you're traveling at 500 miles an hour and all of that wind drying out your eye or some sort of small debris gets in, you know, it's a, it's, we're talking about your eyesight. Yeah. Also bird strikes.

Bird strikes? Bird strikes. But that's more than an eye. Yeah, you can't prepare or really do anything about bird strikes. Yeah. Except if you're out in the sky, there are birds too. Luckily, no birds. Yeah, I know.

Those are dangerous. But that was a conversation we had. And at 2,000 feet, right? It's not like you're at 13,000 where there's less birds. Correct. There are birds in the air. Bird strikes have taken down full aircraft before. They get an engine and, yeah, for sure.

I just don't like birds. And there's a creative venture and there is an absolute revenue generating venture. So you've got both. Do you see yourself more as a creative, expressive artist, or do you see yourself more as an entrepreneur that happens to be able to be an adventurer? Wow. I guess I see myself as a little bit of both, which might be a cop out of an answer. No, I don't think so. It's not a fair question. But because it is, the answer is yes and both. Which side do you like more? I'll be honest. I think I lean more on the spreadsheet operational side of things. And that's because when I came into YouTube, I didn't go to film school. I was just a fan of television and film and storytelling through video media, I would say.

And so to collaborate with other people, I didn't necessarily have the skill set of camera or sound, which I had to learn, of course. But in the beginning, I was like, you know what, I can organize a shoot schedule and keep people on task on set. And so everyone started leaning on me in the early days of my collaboration to do that. for their own sets. And that's really how I learned was I brought skills from other jobs I had worked. Like I interned at Google and worked as an assistant for a director. And those logistical skill sets allowed me to help other creative people do their job best. Now I would absolutely say, like, yes, I'm very creatively involved. I consider the physical performance of what I'm doing just as, you know, some of your clients who are Olympians go out and perform

on the court, that is how I feel about set. It's like when I'm hosting, when I'm training, that is the physical art form that I'm doing and learning and showing up for daily. And marrying that with the logistical side, I think, is what allows us to do these really grand adventures. I think you're right. So where did the physical nature, the artistic creative physical nature of your life design, where did that come from?

That part of my life design came from a poorly-duty. designed part of my life design in my prior life, where I was working a day job as a video producer for another YouTube channel and then moonlighting as a professional cyclist. So I would work and make internet videos from 9 to 5 and then at 5 o'clock I would leave and train until like 9 or 10 and do that every day. And then on the weekends, I would get a phone call about, hey, we're going to a race in Vancouver, see you there. And then I would drive to LAX, race at BC Super Week, come back and do it all over again. Was it oval or road? I did a Criterium. What is that? Criterium is kind of a mix between the two, actually. So you're referring to track cycling

versus like long distance road. I did do like long distance road, but my specialty was Criterium, which is you race on a road bike and it's like a carve out of a. section of downtown where you do laps on a changing course. Cool. Yeah. So kind of like a mix of the two. Yeah. Okay, good.

So you're hinting at that that didn't quite work out. Well, there's a point where it stops being, you get diminishing returns. And I mean, as you know, you know, with the work that you do, I was sort of hitting this ceiling within my sport transparently and to be very blunt. There were not many resources financially or otherwise in women's road cycling at that time. And I think there's still a lot of work to be done. But I kind of got to this point where I couldn't keep doing both. And I felt like I had to choose between one or the other.

And I didn't want to. So blending those two things together is where challenge accepted came about. That's it. I mean, that to me probably is your crown jewel. Thank you. You've got two things that are seemingly divergent, seemingly not lined up. and then you kind of push the chair back from the table. You're like, wait, hold on.

I'm really good at this thing, but it's not working. I'm really good at this thing. It's not really working either. Fill in the blanks on whichever part of the equation here. How do I do both? Right. Is that how it went? Pretty much.

And it was kind of like this moment. I mean, we all hear you got to be unique and do something that only you can do. But I think that ironically, rather than coming up with something vastly new, it was about marrying various subsets of my life that I was pretty good at and bringing them together in one. Like you said, like two unexpected things coming together to create something new. Do you work that out in your head? Do you write it or do you talk it out? Go back to the origin story of like, hey, you know, I've got this idea. And did you work it out with somebody else? Did you write it down or did you just think and use your imagination?

It was a lot of trial and error in doing in the process. So if you go back to the, early days of my channel, which I don't necessarily recommend. Please, please don't work about the early stuff. Insert real quickly before you finish. What's the name of the channel? So my channel is my name, Michelle Carre. K-H-A-R-E. K-H-A-R-E, yes. And if you go back at the early phase of my channel, so when I decided to leave my job, I did Tim Ferriss's Fear Setting exercise, and I made a plan, I said, you know, I'm going to save for X amount of months. I'm going to move into a studio apartment with a roommate and really like live as if I'm failing to get comfortable with that difference in lifestyle and grow a little bit of a savings.

And then on the day I quit, I have a plan ready to go. Okay, go before that, though, when you're kind of in that mini crisis crisis mode where you're like, these two paths that I'm doing, I'm spread too thin, neither are working the way I hope they would. I'm not going to edit for this other channel. I want to stop that. and I'm not going to ride my bike. I want to stop that.

I'm most interested in as a mechanism because you've done it really well. And it's more simple than it sounds like I'm asking. But do you use your imagination to see a compelling future? Do you talk it out with people to get more clear or do you write it down? I felt like the decision to do that was actually because I felt like there was no other option for me. I felt like I had hit ceilings in both. And I was like, man, the only way to do this is for me to go out on my own and see what's possible. But what is possible at that point, the combining of the two?

The potential of the combining of the two. I knew at that point, you know, I think I need to own the work that I'm creating. I wanted to have ownership of my own IP. I wanted to have my own channel. I wanted to take the learnings I had from both things and experiment. But as I was saying, like, if you go back those early videos, it was kind of all over the place. So it was a little bit of doing before knowing. And it was several months of throwing things at the wall before I really landed on Challenge Accepted

with the help of the audience helping me arrive there. It was not a perfect like pilot before it's filmed. It was not a script. It was trying many different things. And then ultimately I had this system of I would do three videos a month that were cheaper and that I thought would perform really well. And then I would do one video for myself that I was like, this is just a cool passion project and I don't see anybody else doing this. For example.

For example, going back to crazy messages I've sent, I sent a DM to Holland Diaz, who was Tom Holland's stunt double on the Spider-Man films. And I said, hey, would you train me for a week? I would love to make a video together. So he trained me for a week. He said yes. He said yes. And we very gratefully, thank you, Holland.

And then at the end of that, I actually performed some of the Spider-Man stunts. So that was kind of the early beginnings. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And those early videos, they lack, of course, the cinematography and sophistication that we have now. But you can see the bones of that early idea. But it was deep iteration.

It was deep iteration and learning as I was going. And stunts are different than cycling. So bridge that gap for me. They're both physical. So how do you go from cycling to, yeah, why don't I do stunts? Why don't I do these things that are really difficult, maybe dangerous. I'm not sure how dangerous some of the stunts are. They look dangerous, but sometimes they're so well controlled that the margin for error is radically reduced.

But when error happens, it's dramatic. We can get into that in a minute. Finding Master is brought to you by Defender. In the conversations I have with world class performers, there's this theme that keeps coming up again and again. How we choose to move through the world shapes the quality of our lives. That's about mindset, the environments that we seek out, the way that we use our tools, and the way that we prepare ourselves for what's next. And for me, that's what stands out about Defender. Defender is one of my favorite cars on the road.

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Like, if you look at the Spider-Man episode, it's, like, really basic stuff. A lot of the things I was doing were just slow and steady. and I would go to these gyms, like joining all movement or Tempest in the valley where all these like Red Bull Parkour athletes are training. And I just watched them and try. And I was terrible in the beginning. In fact, I was like, gosh, dang it.

Why didn't I choose like taekwondo instead of cycling? Because that would translate way more to this. But what I did have an edge in was because of the cardiovascular background. I was able to try and fail a ton. So I might not have the prettiest back hands ring, but man, I could sit there for three hours and just keep going and going and going past the class time, past even when other people were training. And so though the repetitive motion of powering a bike has very little translation, it's definitely given me the understanding of sports mindset, how to prepare for training, recovery, operating within a team, all of those things that you know very intimately. Right now, I'm training for this thing called the Great World Race, where I am going to, in six weeks, run seven marathons on all seven continents in seven consecutive days. Yeah.

So your motor is going to pay dividends there. Hopefully. Now it's been a while. So I've been a professional cyclist. So seven continents. Yeah. North America starting or ending? Antarctica is the first one.

Antarctica, of course. And then so you'll run a marathon that's about how many hours for you? The fastest marathon I've run, which isn't anything crazy, was 3.30. But I think for this, I'm probably going to end up in like, like in Antarctica. It'll be probably over five hours, potentially. Yeah. So you wake up, run a marathon. Get on a plane.

Get on a plane. Sleep. So lots of recovery kind of mechanisms optimized throughout it. Sleep as well as you can. And then you punch to where? Africa, South Africa. Yeah. So that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah, and then morning run again? Run. Yeah. Get on plane. Go to Australia. So this whole thing will be marked by how well you recover. Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly. And how well you can manage the psychological stress of it. Well, I think you'll do fine on the psychological stress. I think you'll do absolutely. I think managing the physiological toll on resources does create a whole different thing. Yeah. When humans are at their edge, it's usually not a physical edge.

It's usually emotional. Most people that I know do not run up against their physical potential. They run up against their emotional potential. So the barrier is psychological more than it is anything else. And so when resources are thin, like if you're a highly anxious person, you're still trying to sort out some early childhood traumas that took place or adulthood traumas that took place or adulthood traumas that took place. or adult-hood traumas that took place. And you're just kind of in that fight-or-flight mode or you're just depressed.

You've got stuff going on. And look, most of us do. The numbers are staggering of, like, who's carrying pretty heavy bags, if you will. It's not that they don't have the resources. They're just thin because they're tired from, like, the day-to-day go. So you're going to run right up against that edge. And it will be really important that you extend that edge

as much as you possibly can with all the recovery practices. And then it'll be really important that when you are in your edge, that you've got some tools to be able to manage those moments as efficiently and as compassionately and as togetherness as you possibly can. Exactly. Yeah, relational is the piece there. So, okay, great. So seven in seven days. Yeah. I'm excited to watch that.

When does that kind of happen? That will happen in November. Are you in shape for that right now? I mean, I've been training my ass off. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah, I did, I did, you know, I've done several 20-mile runs, didn't one on Friday,

then hike three hours Saturday. I have a 20-mile-or tomorrow. And you've got a high volume. Do you have a coach that's helping with that? I'm working with Coach Gareth Thomas. He's worked with a ton of professional triathletes, cyclists, runners. Okay, so here's your crown jewel again, is that you pull your assets that you have and you bring them to this whatever new venture is.

So it's showing up again, is that, and it shows up in even a small way when you went into a climbing gym or a parkour gym and you're like, oh goodness, I'm not very good. But you work it out. You bring one of your assets forward. You bring one of your strengths forward. Yeah. But you don't leave. You don't not go. Yeah.

That's where, again, there's like edges that happen for all of us is that we make up stories. Ah, you know, like, maybe that's not a good fit for me. Wow, this is really uncomfortable. Oh my God. What are they thinking of me? Fill in the blanks. Can you go back to the first time you were in one of those gyms and you're like a fish out of water? Yeah.

Yeah. How do you work with your thoughts and your emotions in those moments? In the beginning, something I learned very quickly with Challenge Accepted is you go much further in general with an eagle. when you have like more willingness to fail in front of other people. Maybe that's a sweeping generalization. Maybe that's super obvious to people. But it's in moments like that going back to my first time going to the parkour gym. I'm thinking about, you know, when I went with a few friends who are professional stunt people

who are world champion martial artists and watching them, it's about having immense patience. in that pursuit. Like, I would just sit there. I would repeat the motion over and over again. And I have to think about, like, what are the strategic advantages that I have in general that may not even touch parkour stunts type of stuff? And yes, as you mentioned,

one of those for me was the cardiovascular background I had to just repeat things over and over and over again. And that helped me learn faster. another thing I had was just from making videos, the ability to know how to film something and watch tape back and understand it and study it. Wait, before you're going to further, you said, what are my strategic what?

Like, what are the strategic advantages that I have that may have nothing to do with this? That's how I'm going to capture the crown jewel. That's exactly what are my strategic advantages. Like how can I take the resources that I have, external and pour them into something that is really interesting to me. I don't know if it's going to work. I don't know how it's going to go.

But how can I pull the best of my resources into that thing? It sounds super simple, but I think this is what you probably are exceptional at. But I want to make this even more simple. Bring me into when you walked into that gym. Okay. Like go as far as like what you were wearing and what the temperature was, Like as much as you possibly can invite that part of the story forward so that I can get a sense of how you navigated your psychology when you were at your edge.

Okay. And like what did you do to do that? Because that's no different than somebody that's going to go walk up five steps and do a keynote. The five steps that gets the platform. It's no different than somebody that is going to pitch a billion dollar idea in front of a bunch of people that don't think people like me can pull off things like that. Or walking up to a beautiful person across the hallway. that you're super attracted to

that you want to have a conversation with. It's all the same stuff. Yes. Yeah. Business ideas, relationships, whatever. So I would love if you could tell that story. So the first time I'm walking into Tempest to train with Hollywood stunt people, I show up and I'm wearing my workout outfit.

I walk in the room, you can just feel the scent of like the combination. of, you know how gymnastics places have a specific smell from the spongy square? The chalk, the sweat, everything. And I'm looking out at this gym and just seeing the best professionals in the world do what they do. Brown, back handspring, backtuck, like, you know, all these, you know, swinging swords and nunchucks and performing their world champion martial arts forms. And I'm thinking, oh my God, what have I gotten myself into? This is so different from my world of cycling, which is show up on the group ride and hang on.

You know, cycling so much, of course there's strategy. Of course there's art to it. But a lot of it is, are you fit enough and can you muscle through the pain? And I remember going to a lot of these classes and just making a total fool of myself. I mean, by the way, in LA, if you go to a beginner stunt class, be warned, it might not be beginner. It's like, beginner intermediate. And like people are like... Everyone's got to double back for...

People are like, yeah, I like, I doubled for Scarlett Johansson. I doubled for this person, this person. I'm just like here hanging out today. And then they get up and, you know, do a front flip and whip out a sword. It's crazy. But I would just do something. And I would film myself. I would learn from it.

I would even pull people aside and say, hey, this sounds crazy. I know I am so far behind you. could we do something where we exchange? Maybe you teach me a little bit of martial arts for an hour, and I can teach you about my budgeting spreadsheet or how I made this Instagram video or how I run my YouTube channel, and we would do info exchanges,

and this was back when I didn't have hard resources to offer. And some of those people are still stunt people as part of our projects today and some of my closest friends. And what it took was me extending myself and just having a little bit of fun to learn. I think people, teachers, coaches love coaching people who are just excited to be there and to learn. And sometimes they enjoy teaching those people far more than the 1% super successful athlete because that's a lot to deal with. And so I find a lot of times, honestly, the coaches we work with her like, you're just fun to be around and you're game for anything.

And I get that. Like, you're just game for anything. And I think there has to be humility and willing to fall flat on your face, which is a very easy thing for me to say. But a painful thing that I deal with still in our videos today is like, gosh, I really messed that up. And we filmed it and that has to go in the video because that is where the story is made. that is what makes a journey interesting and relatable and fun to watch is not the success at the end, but the low points throughout. Can I ask you a two-part question that's –

Okay. Part of it's going to be hard. Okay. You can decline. Okay. Or accept the challenge. Challenge accepted. Let's go.

Of course. It was part one. What do you say to yourself to build yourself, like to back yourself, to have your own back. What does it materially sound like in your own mind when you are supporting yourself? In a hard moment? Yeah. And yeah. I mean, just in general. In general. My inner monologue, that's really interesting. I'll be completely honest. I do a lot of daring things, but I would not consider myself an exceptionally brave person. In fact, I consider myself quite the opposite. I am, I'm anxious. I mean, the most daring thing that I did before going to college

was using Gil Sands font instead of Times New Roman for my backboard at the International Science and Engineering Fair. Like that was, I was like, man, this is going to be so cool. And I'll say this, it worked, and we went to international. So there's that. It was a pretty baller presentation on gel electrophoresis and prostate cancer. So talk to me about that after. But like that was kind of the edge of my limitation. My limitation before challenge accepted was be brave and bold within the confines of what's supposed to work in life. It was never, it was like, go as far as you can studying for the SATs to aim for that perfect score, to get into a good school, to get the job, whatever. But it was never be bold in your own creative way. But I think that many stories

reject that. It's like, if you want to be cool and brave, You've got to reject everything about rigidity. And I would actually argue the opposite. You have to have a plan and intentionality in order to feel free in the pursuit of something creative. You can't just do it blindly. You know what's really cool about, you haven't answered the question, but it's a really good answer. It's a really good answer.

No, it's like there's brilliant. Oh, what do I tell myself? Wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to just. So you want my inner monologue. I do. Yeah. My inner monologue is like, oh no.

Oh, no. No, this is when you back yourself. Yeah, when I'm back myself. Like, how do you support yourself, take care of yourself? Yeah. Like, what do you say to yourself to build you? I'll tell you exactly what happens. Turn on Beyonce.

That is the inner model. Keep going. Turn on Beyonce. Any of the hits. Love Cowboy Carter. I think that part of what I do for Challenge Accepted is it's obviously not a solo pursuit. And to me, there are a few key roles that I need to have in place. me to feel comfortable moving forward with a crazy challenge. So this contributes to the inner monologue.

The first is finding the best coach in the world to coach me for whatever I'm going to do. So like for our boxing episode, I knew I wanted to work with Tony Jeffries, bronze Olympic medalist. I just knew it. I needed to have the best coach in the world. The second is someone in your corner who is a mentor. So this is somebody who is not your coach, but who has done the thing you're looking to do. And I think it's important to distinguish these two roles. A coach is someone who has succeeded in coaching someone to greatness. A mentor is someone who's actually accomplished that. Now, the greatest mentors in the world might not be great coaches and vice versa.

But then the third person you have to have in your corner is a cheerleader. And this is, I think, a superpower. This is someone who cares about you and your success, but has no real investment in the final outcome of the thing. They're just happy to be there for you. And so this could be a best friend, a family member. For me, I have a few. It's my best friend, Olivia, and my husband Garrett.

And they're the people who are going to put you first and just be excited like, hey, that was so crazy you even tried to do that. And they'll be happy for you no matter the result. But I think it's important to have somebody like that so that. you can feel support that is detached from the accomplishment of the finish line. So I would say the orbit of those three entities around me really contributes to that inner monologue. And I learned this a lot through trial and error throughout Challenge Accepted, like, oh, I really want to work with this person, like on a resume, they're the best in the world.

But in person, maybe we didn't jive or their way of coaching wasn't as specific as what I needed. And so for me, the casting, if you will, of those three roles is crucial to create a safe training environment for me to fail comfortably and a place where I can have good headspace. So when I back myself, oftentimes it's the things I've heard those three people say to me. It's a reflection of them. It's nothing creative I've come up with. Nobody wants to hear my inner monologue. But it's... Actually?

Huh? Actually? Probably not. I mean. No, I actually really want to hear it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. Nutrition is foundational to high performance and well-being. And being consistent with whole food choices is really important.

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Like, especially at the beginning of cycling, I got dropped a lot, which for those of you who haven't cycled before, that means you get left by. behind. You get left behind on the group ride because I wasn't strong enough. And so I just had this little mantra of like, all right, you might drop me, but you can't stop me. You might drop me, but you can't stop me. And like that was reclaiming, okay, I got left behind by the group. I am out here in Timbuktu by myself and I was left in some crazy places. But I can keep going forward. I can, like, I have power over my legs to keep moving forward. So I have a little, a few little mantras like that. But I think a really important one for me is like right before I'm about to do

something crazy, I will like clap my hand. Is this crazy? I'll just go like, let's go. And I'm like from then on, it's game face. And you can actually see, it's very bizarre for me to watch, but there's a physical change in my face when I'm in a challenge. You can see that very clearly like in the boxing challenge. I do not look like me. when I'm on the side of the plane, getting ready for that, I do not look like civilian me. And that's just because I have to have so much mental focus to remain in that headspace and not allow any limiting beliefs, negativity. Yeah.

So you are describing the process of switching on your ideal competitive mindset. Yes. And you first have to know what it feels like. You have to be able to describe it in some way. the words will always fall short. But the exercise of like, what am I like at my best is a worthwhile internal or shared process? Like when I'm at my best, it's like this. Try to find the words, but there's a feeling that you're looking for.

And then what are the one, two, three, maybe five things that you do to switch that thing on? So the clap and the let's go. That's kind of the final or maybe the only that you do. And then it's, you just said it's like locking in to push out. anything that's not useful. And I am switching on, like Kobe talked about, like mama mentality. You know, like you listen to the greats and they have a way that they talk about activating their ICM, their ideal competitive mindset. Okay. ICM. You have it. But I love the formula. Like you're, again, I asked you a simple question and you appropriately created a system to get to the clarity,

which is like, look, I've got three people, coach, mentor, and cheerleader. And when I'm at my best, I'm channeling the best way that they speak to me. And I'm repeating it. And like if a coach one day said to me, like, you're a fucking rock star. Like, I might say to myself, I'm a fucking rock star. Yeah. Like, right. So that's okay.

Now let's go, this is the hard question. Oh, that wasn't the hard question. Okay, ready. Yeah. Are you ready? Challenge accepted. Okay. Okay.

So I think the harder question is how do you speak to yourself when you're, you're you're really not helping yourself. Oh, gosh. This is the part of you that puts you on the train of thought for anxiousness, doubt, self-critique. Like, literally, what are you saying to yourself if you don't? And you can say no, I don't want to go there. Oh, we're going there. We're going there.

My inner monologue, when I am in the fear mindset, when I am anxious, uncomfortable, I experienced a little bit of this just this weekend. So I, for the first time, am going to be delivering a TED talk next month, which is really cool, really exciting, but also really intimidating. And I have to do a practice run of it this week. And I was feeling really behind. So a lot of, you know, the general limiting beliefs that come up are, you know, I'm not a prolific New York Times bestselling author. Who am I to be writing a keynote? Who am I to draw the spotlight onto myself? I don't. you know, have an advanced degree to assess this on a scientific level. And I genuinely think that the best way for me to get out of that is to move externally. So I do things that bring me back to who I am. So for me, it means, you know, going like, I was like, all right, it's time. I got to go do my 20-mile run. I need to just get out and move my body and and provide value to myself in other ways.

and then also reaching out to other people in my community that coach, mentor, cheerleader role. I have that for whatever challenge I'm doing. Then I also have that in my business. So I work with a CEO coach. I speak a lot to other content creators who are further along in their entrepreneurial journey than me. Those are your mentors. Yeah, those are the mentors. And then the cheerleader role for that is many different people, including our audience.

But I try to create that little orbit in anything that I'm doing. So I even have that for the TED Talk. I'm working with a speakers coach. I'm speaking with other people who have delivered those types of keynotes before. And again, use the same cheerleader squad as usual. But I think I don't really have a magical solution for getting out of that headspace by myself. I think to get out of my head, I genuinely have to get out of my head and go external. I think that you're describing a brilliant strategy, which is you've got a community that you're relying on.

This game that I'm talking about here, about understanding. understanding how you're speaking to yourself begins with awareness. So you first have to be aware of what am I saying? And is this thought train working or not really? And then if it's not working, how do I move from, I don't know, the L train to the M train? How do I move from trains? And it takes time to practice it. And over time, I think it would be a next step for you to not rely on what they would say.

But like how does it work for me? I think your answer was, it's already been shared, which is like, I have to return back to myself. Yeah. And the more clear we are on our inherent value as opposed to our performative value, the more clear we are about the first principles that we're working from, the values we're working from, the more clear we are that the purpose that I'm doing all of this for is in a noble cause. and like, I don't, there's no reason that I would expect that I need to be perfect. I need to be committed.

And so if you can come from a handful of first principles like I'm talking about right now, it gets a little bit easier to navigate that messy edge where you're like, oh my God, who am I? Yeah. And I love the framing. Who am I too? Who am I too? Who am I too?

And then how do you answer that? Just you and me right now. How do you answer that question? Who am I to be able to do a keynote? Who am I to get on the side of a plane? you know, that Tom Cruise has, is Harold of doing. Who am I to create a new model? And my old model was that I need to be bold within the accepted confines of the path. And the new model is to break the mold and to be creative in whatever I can see, dream and feel. And so, like, answer it that

way maybe. Like, who are you to be able to break that foundational model in your early childhood to now. Well, I would be honest in saying that part of me feels exactly like I just reflect the question back, okay, yeah, who am I to do that? But I also think that if not me, then whom? I also think. Did you add an M at the end of that? Yeah, whom? You did. Why did you say whom? Isn't that like grammatically correct? Yeah. But you most people would Let's not say that. Is it, well, okay. Then who?

Yeah. Yeah, but that's an interesting choice too. Like, it's not lost on me. I'm looking for the right moment to introduce it. Like, you've been on this path of excellence or the path of mastery for a long time. And you went to one of the top five universities in the planet, Dartmouth. Your early model was to be bold inside of the confines. And you got on the high performance youth treadmill.

I really did. Yeah, there's actually not one late. that but it is that high performance treadmill that I'm going to do for APs I'm going to do this club and that club and this community service and I'm going to get a tutor for this that and the other and I'm going to get a 1580 on my SAT. I don't you don't have to say your score but something elevated and I'm going to have a 4.6 and I'm going to be the captain of this, that and the other. And then when you do that, it sounds exhausting saying it, you know, you get into the top

25 schools in the planet and that's not for everybody. You also have to be really pretty smart too, which you're. know you are. A little crazy, maybe. But it's the craziness that you've embraced. Yeah. You are unreasonable. Thank you. I think it's a highest compliment. Yeah, you are unreasonable with what most people would think is possible. And I think that unreasonable standard is something you had from early, you probably learned it from a family of origin kind of arc. And then you're bringing that unreasonableness into your second act, maybe third act. It's awesome. I hope you never lose the unreasonableness and create more aperture, open the aperture from the confines of the model

to like something that has edges that are not even closely to be defined at this point. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I just got on a soapbox. What do you think? I enjoyed listening to it. I love listening to the wisdom you have to share. Okay.

So, but let's go back to the question, which is how do you answer who am I? who are you to be able to push the edges? And I'd love to know how you answer that. Like you mentioned, I think for a lot of the phase one of my life, it was go as far as you can within the confines of society. And to start mixing interests and developing new things like Challenge Accepted out of those things made me uncomfortable at first. Because I did ask those questions. But I think after doing it so many times, I have no choice but to accept the reality of there's a pattern here and it's working and it's cool and it's exciting. And I own it, you know?

It's fine to own like, hey, these are crazy things that I've done. And along the way, when you go watch each of these episodes, you're going to see some of the deepest, most vulnerable moments of my life as a part of that. I think it's fine to be true in both. I think it's more impactful and interesting to say, I'm a daredevil who makes this show, and also I'm scared while I do it. Why can't both be true? I love that.

Can you teach on how you've extended your comfort zone? And if you think about three rings, there's a comfort zone, a high ground, the place that we can all dry off, For some people, it's the couch and TV. For some people, you know, like it's all different for everyone. But we all have a comfort zone. And then right outside of that comfort zone, there's like this learning zone, the challenge

zone. There's like a discomfort zone. And that's where like the deepest kind of learning takes place. And then right on the edge of that is like there's this danger line. And that danger line is where like your panic button gets hit. And it's like full fight, flight mode. You know? And so what I've come to understand is that the true.

greats, the ones that are redefining how we understand and what we understand is possible for humans, they dance on that danger line a lot. Yes, exactly. They dance right on that panic zone. And when they touch the panic, their whole day is designed to see if they can get up into that panic zone. And then hang there and not return to the comfort, but to drop down into the discomfort zone a little bit more. and then see if they can cut, because they're close, get right back up to the panic zone and then pull down into the learning discomfort and the backup. And then finally, of course, hit the comfort zone, you know, towards, let's say, at the end of the day, if you will.

How do you operate from the comfort to the learning zone or from the learning zone to the panic zone? I think that if I am not dancing on that line. Which line? Comfort to discomfort or discomfort to panic? Discomfort to panic. Like the one you're describing. Right on the danger line. If I'm not a few clicks below that, I'm actually not having fun.

For me, it's, I don't know, interesting and fun. And I find that that's where people become who they really are. And those are the people I want to surround myself with. And it's an interesting analogy because it's something I learned very clearly when I was training for the Houdini water torture cell. when you are free diving. Can you describe that to people first? So I did a project a couple years ago, which was a really big inflection point for our show, challenge accepted.

And it was the first challenge I thought would truly be impossible. So I set out to attempt Harry Houdini's water torture cell, which, if you're unfamiliar, is one of the original stunts that Houdini performed, where he was handcuffed, bound in chains, and submerged upside down in a glass case filled with water with the task of escaping by himself. So, and this was to attempt to confront my fear of drowning. And it was a really interesting project. You literally are afraid of drowning.

I had a, when I was... I think we all are, to be clear. Of course. But like, this is a, it's something that's prominent for you? I would say that, you know, when I was growing up, I have a very specific memory of being on vacation and having a very close call in a hotel pool. Yeah. Do you remember how old you were?

I think I was like six or seven. I was quite young. I'm comfortable swimming. But really going to the edge of a breath hold was horrifying for me. In breath hold in water. Yes. So a big component. I mean, there are so many moving parts to this stunt.

You have to learn how to pick locks from a magician. I had to call a fabrication team and have a very. bizarre conversation with them about can you guys make a water torture cell and it's for me and it needs to be very funny conversation. But then alongside all of that, the thing that I was very nervous about doing was learning how to free dive and hold my breath properly. And there are phases to holding your breath in a pool. Finding Master is brought to you by Fatty 15. Over the years, we've had a lot of great conversations about optimizing the aging process. And one of my favorites was the conversation I had with Dr. Stephanie Van Watson,

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I need oxygen. You have to dance this very, very razor-thin line of living in that for as long as you can without going hypoxic and blacking out. And so part of it is trusting the team that is observing you to pull you out if needed. And part of it is also fighting that inner thing, that inner self-talk. And it was so counterintuitive to me because as an athlete, I was taught two things. When you're in the red zone, muscle through it, number one, just get it done. And number two, breathe through it.

You cannot do either of those things for a breath hold because any form of tensing or, like, contracting your muscles or anything. thing, that waste is oxygen. So it's counterproductive. And obviously you can't breathe underwater. So it was a very, very tough thing for me to wrap my head around. But I agree with you that like some people have asked me, well, what do you do when you're not training for a challenge? And I'm like, well, I'm bored and I'm frustrated because I'm ready for the next one. And I think that's honestly just how I get excited about life is if I'm not moving, I don't know what to do with myself. Well, there's a dark side to this. Okay.

Which is think about like an X, Y access for a minute. Mm-hmm. And the danger line is, let's call it two units up when you're early on your arc. Yeah. Right. And there's like, there's real consequences when you push past the danger line at some point. But at one point, like jumping, if I'm afraid of heights and I jump off a climatry that's like three feet off the ground, I jump. The risk is not that great.

But it might feel great, okay, if I'm kind of afraid of trees and heights, three feet. The consequences if I fall are not probably great. But if I move up to 10 stories or 15,000 feet from like an airplane or whatever, and I'm moving way up into my heights, the consequences are legit. Yeah. And the danger line, though, is like I don't perceive it to be dangerous because my skill set is so strong. Right. There's this other thing that takes place for world-class edge pushers in the physical world is they get so skilled. This can also be for mental and emotional too.

They get so skilled at it. They're looking for that danger line, but the consequences are final. Of course. And that's why I think that orbit of coach, mentor, cheerleader, those are the people. When I'm in the switching on mode, I accept that like I am going to be at my best, but I'm not going to have the full. picture on what's going on. And so part of me switching on is giving control to other people who can call things out when needed. And that relationship, that trust is so important. And I guess what I mean is as a person who wants to be challenging myself, wants to be

pushing forward and going in that, you know, up to the danger zone, I don't think necessarily that that has to be physical or a crazy stunt every time. To me, that also means within my business within who I am as a person, like exploring relationships with friends and family, I think there are always even small ways to continue to grow. I think you're more on the money here than I express is that for most of us, it's not physical. Yeah. The danger zone is mostly emotional, and it means being vulnerable of... Having a hard conversation.

Speaking your truth, you know, like that is your honest vulnerability with another person and not sure of how they're going to take care of you or not, you know, or hear what you're having to say. Like, the emotional danger line is the one I think most of us are working through all the time. Definitely. Yeah. You know, the daredevil bit is interesting for me for you. You're pushing up against a danger line, which is what a daredevil might be known for. But you're backing it with a team and you're backing it with skills.

You're not reckless by any means. I totally get that. what do you think like your true craft is? My true craft. Yeah. So there's mastery of self and mastery of craft. Almost all this conversation has been about mastery of self. You like how you're doing it.

What is the craft that you're working on mastering? The craft that I'm currently working on mastering is being the best leader I can be for my team. Because I think everything else falls into place if that's done correctly and well. And I'm always learning and improving. And ultimately, like the product we're making, which is different from the craft, is like, I want to make the best techie series we possibly can and tell some of the most unique and vulnerable and interesting stories we possibly can and highlight communities in the process that haven't been highlighted in this way before. And I really want to upend the understanding of what it means to make content online and challenge what that means and confuse people with what that means that when they. your online content creator, I want them to think of the cool and incredible things that not only our team, but many teams on YouTube are doing. And it's very different from the

stereotypical expectation you have from 10 years ago. It's really cool. I think, you know, folks like Da Vinci, Polymath, you know, there's handfuls of folks that are polymath. And I love that you answered a multidisciplined way. Yeah. Leadership, filmmaking, storytelling, athlete. Like there's a polymath that you're on the beginnings of like fully realizing. I'm so stoked to be able to sit with you to understand how you work from the inside out, how you're building your communities, what the bold ambition is. And if we spent just a little bit of time on the YouTube world, for folks that want to build, they're already down the path.

And you could be a mentor for them right now. What is a reasonable growth arc? What are some of the things the Finding Mastery team could definitely learn from you as well? what are some things that folks that want to grow their community can do to just be able to stay on the path a little bit longer? Wow. Well, our story with Challenge Accepted is interesting in that there have certainly been bumps of growth along the way, but it's never been like a massive J curve out of nowhere. It's been for the most part slow and steady.

And I think some of that has been actually not listening to what other people have. said to do. When you find a format that works, oftentimes the first piece of advice you hear is double down and make 300 of it tomorrow. Do it quickly. Get it out the door. Whatever it takes, you got to double click on it now. And I agree with that to a certain point of when you have found something that's working, it might not work forever. But I would caution a few things. Only do that if you love what it is because otherwise your resume is going to be a bunch of things that you're not proud of. I would also caution on the multiplicity, the scaling of things. I mean, if you look at Challenge Accepted, we release 10 episodes a year, 10 YouTube videos a year. That's it. A bunch of

short form in between two. And we've often been told, you need to be releasing like 30, 40 videos a year. But if we did that, it would actually take away what makes it unique, which is I train for a long time. These videos take, you know, immense amounts of effort to put together. And if we were to do more, we would lose the very thing that makes it special. So I have an extreme example of not posting very often, but I think that that has also contributed to the brand that we've built. And people know when we upload a video, it's going to be of a certain length, expectation, quality, depth of storytelling. Where does a YouTube channel start to make money?

What number of subscribers? It's subscribers that are kind of the key number, or is it otherwise? I know it's changed a few times. I probably have not the best person to ask right now. I think it's actually number of total views on a channel, if I had to say. But you have to hit a benchmark of viewership on the channel, at which point you could be eligible for monetization. And there are a lot of factors that play into monetization.

It's not necessarily X amount of views equals X amount of dollars, but you can start to make money through YouTube AdSense, which is like commercials on television that are auto done. Place by YouTube. Yes. And you get a percentage. Yes, you get a percentage of that. And then at a certain point, depending on the brand you've built,

you could also collaborate with other brands. Build your own commercials in? Yes, which is. Or have them. part of the segment. Yeah, like product placement or in a spokesperson capacity. We also, you know, do category collaborations on our channel. Like we're among the first collaborators with Red Bull to be a Red Bull creator. So that's something I'm really excited about. Congratulations on that. That is a tough nut to crack. The Red Bull community is the standards really elevated. So when I saw that you were

with the team, I was like, well done. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Yeah. It's really well. done. I feel so privileged and lucky. Side note, I actually applied to be a Red Bull athlete 10 years ago when I was a cyclist and I was swiftly rejected. But standards are high. Yeah, the standards are very high. You know, in retrospect, I am grateful for that because it led me on the path of challenge accepted and to do something that is actually totally different and what I want to be doing and special to me. So it's really, really cool to come back. home to that. Congrats on that.

That's really good. Let's project out for a couple years. So you think, I don't know, let's go five to seven years. Oh my goodness. When I go five years? I'm thinking about for challenge accepted. What do you see? What do I see?

I see that challenge accepted continues to evolve in ways that even I can't predict. Because something that's been special about challenge accepted is we not only evolve with what our audience is interested in what we're watching, but also what's happening. but also what's happening in my life. You know, as I do more of these challenges, the stakes get higher. But also, I'm excited about exploring mental challenges, non-physical challenges, which we have done in the past. We did a chess challenge that was incredible. Something special that happened this year was we went through the independent review board.

We talked about crazy emails and messages I've sent. The scientific review board? We went through an independent review board with the Emmys. and challenge accepted has been officially recognized by the Emmys as an eligible television show. Awesome. So we were on the ballot. How do we help?

I don't think we can. Next year you'll be able to vote for us in. Can we? I don't know how this stuff works. I got to be in the academy. You got to be in the academy. You got to be in the academy. So only academy folks can vote on the news.

That's right. Yeah. Okay. But next year we'll be on the ballot for outstanding hosted nonfiction series or special. And that was really exciting to me, not because I think, you know, winning awards is fun, right? But I was really passionate about this mission because I think it's bold and interesting and it's fun to do things that sound crazy, like go through the independent review board and prove that Challenge Accepted is a show. And there are other content creators who are a part of that now pushing that forward. And I get excited about it because I want future generation. to be able to look at art and see it democratized and see, hey, if I can come up with something that other people like

and that I love making, I can sit among those other shows rather than I hope I get a chance to meet someone who meets someone and suddenly I'm in a room of suits and pitching my idea. I want to be a part of a future where people have the ability to go and to do. Is there a moment that comes to mind of something that someone said that has changed you? Before I started a challenge accepted, I heard someone close to me say,

everything you want is on the other side of fear. And at this point, I think that's a very tired quote probably. But I really believe that. And oftentimes when I feel like I'm coming up against something, I sit with it and ask, what is the thing I'm scared of right now? What is that hard conversation? What is the thing the elephant in the room that we're all thinking but nobody's saying? How can I take action on it?

And I think it's a really good guiding principle for opening up a dam and allowing truth to flow. I want to take a second here to tell you about a more. routine that I've been using for years. For me, it's a great way to switch on my mind, to ready myself to take on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates, or text threads, I choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control, too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using. The best part, it only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to finding mastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free.

Again, head to finding mastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. What is your working definition of failure? Okay. So the like deep rooted, deep, deep, deep, deep, like we're going in deep answer is I am from a family of immigrants. So my dad and his family moved to America without speaking English, knowing, you know, anything, and they went through it here. My dad moved 22 times in his childhood, immense roller coaster, if you can imagine. And so I think a lot of my fear-based motivation, which is not the greatest source of motivation, comes from being so aware of that sacrifice. and now doing something entrepreneurial in many ways orbiting myself that I want to make that worth it.

And I think everyone needs to have a personal motivation that's not attached to anybody else. So I acknowledge this is not the best one. But that's the like deep down one for me. Did you hear it in your voice when you were talking about it? What? Just the respect and all of the sacrifice and the gift that they've given you. When you first started describing it, I don't, did you hear it in your voice? I feel it.

Yeah. I feel it speaking about it because I believe it deeply. Yeah. And I, and again, that's not even like imposed by them or an expectation of anybody else. It's this, you know, we're talking about fear, failure. So it's self-defined. That is me placing that on myself. That's right.

But I'm very aware of it. And I think about it often. I can tell. Yeah. You also did something really clever is that you took a break. breath, you gathered yourself. This was all while you were speaking. And then you lowered your voice. Yeah. And now you raised your voice. Yes. You lowered your voice to work with that emotion. It was elegant. I think your eyes are microscopes. Mine. Yes. That's my diagnosis of you.

Is that your eyes have microscopes in them. Just watching. I'm listening of it. Yeah. Yeah. That's so fun. All right. Two last questions. Okay. You ready? All right. Yeah. Relationships are a two-way street. beautifully said. Mastery is. Okay, I have this one. It's not a fill in the blank. You didn't have the other ones? No.

Well, I knew you were going to ask this one. Okay. I knew this one was going to come up. I don't have an answer for mastery because I do, I believe, and this is not a cop out, I think it's self-defined. But something I deeply believe is we all know the poem. Jack of all trades is a master of none. But many people don't realize there is a second part of the poem that says,

a drag of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one. I love that because I think it's surprising and unexpected. And I personally believe that the best leaders are the ones who have done every role that they are leading in some capacity, even if they were terrible at it. And I think that requires getting your hands dirty in a lot of things and not just putting blinders on in the one thing you're good at. Very cool. And did you have the chance to spend time with Tom Cruise? I did. Yeah. So what is one thing that you learned from working with Tom Cruise? What did I learn from Tom Cruise? I, you know, I was really privileged to meet Tom at the Mission Impossible Premier, which happened to be just a few weeks before I performed to the Plains done. And our interaction

was short, but one thing he said to me was at the time. the end of our conversation, shook my hand. Very great handshake, by the way, look me in the eyes and said, hey, be competent, not careful. And at first I thought, he said, be confident, not careful. I said, okay, yes, sir, be confident, not careful. And he goes, no, be competent, not careful. And I really think that that is such a great bookend of what I have been seeking and trying to grasp with challenge, except it as a whole, going from someone very anxious to now doing this, is that you've got to be smart in your pursuit. You've got to look at every angle of the problem you're trying to solve and, in fact, use the limiting beliefs and

the negative self-talk, the anxiety, those are all tools of information for what you are missing in order to be brave. But at the same time, you can never let it make you too careful to miss out on what's on the other side. So it was a pretty mic drop moment. He's a baller. Shout out to Tom Cruise. And shout out to you. Like, Michelle, what a really enjoyable. For me, this was, I say it a lot. like is I really enjoy these conversations and I get to meet people like you. And so thank you for a discerning, difficult conversation done eloquently well with the ability to feel your way through it, to choose honesty and vulnerability when you could have not. You could have done something else. And to do it in a way that allowed me to really understand who you are and how you're working in this world

and what you're trying to co-create with others. So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This is wonderful. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Thank you to everyone who listened all the way to the end. Yeah, how about it? And where can people follow you?

You can follow me on all social media platforms at Michelle Kare. K-H-A-R-E. Yes. Two L's and Michelle. Two L's and Michelle. Yeah, it's my sister's name. Oh, there you go. Yeah, how about it.

All right, thank you so much. Thank you. Next time on Finding Mastery, We're joined by NIR Ayal, bestselling author of Hooked, Indistractable, and his newest book, Beyond Belief. In this conversation, Nia and Mike explore a powerful idea. Beliefs are not truths, their tools. And the hidden beliefs we carry quietly shape what we attempt, what we avoid, and what we think is possible. If you've ever known what to do but still struggle to follow through or wondered whether you're actually stuck or simply believing you are, this one is for you. Join us Wednesday, March 18th 9 a.m. Pacific only on Finding Mastery.

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