Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Relationship Between Fear and Inner Drive | Big Wave Surfer, Mark Mathews

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Mark Mathews, a world-class big wave surfer, Red Bull Athlete and Surf Contest Director.He’s made a living at the intersection of danger and excitement and knows all too well the crippling grasp of fear.While in Tasmania, fifteen feet in front of a cliff in cold, shark infested waters, Mark hit a reef and instantly blacked out. Terror engulfed every inch of his being. Neck braced and hospital-ridden, he didn’t know if he could ever surf again.At that moment, Mark made a decision never to allow fear to overpower him again.Mark has deconstructed, fine-tuned, and personalized emotion and resilience techniques to successfully strengthen his mindset and sustain long term performance.These techniques have helped him win an unprecedented three consecutive Oakley Big Wave Awards and cement him as one of the best big wave surfers in the world.In this conversation, we discuss the strategies Mark’s developed to overcome fear and how you can apply them in your own life.And keep in mind – this is someone who surfs some of the biggest waves known to mankind – waves as big as 80+ feet.Mark believes that conquering fear starts with being aware and in-tune with what your motivations are – you’ve got to want the result on the other side more than you fear doing what it takes to get there._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's the way I kind of look at what I do. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who are just switched on. They're flat out on it. They've dedicated their life efforts to unlocking, to understanding, to living in alignment, to really going into the nuances of their craft and understanding at the deepest level, both mastery of self and mastery of craft. And what does that mean? That means we want to dig to understand how do they organize their inner life and what are the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft.

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And he's made a living at the intersection of danger and excitement and skill and knows all too well the really gripping and constricting grasp of fear. And he was down in Tasmania, 15 feet in front of a cliff of cold shark infested waters where Mark hit a reef and instantly blacked out. Terror, he has the reports, just engulfed every inch of his being. His neck was braced. He was hospital ridden. And he didn't know if he was ever going to do the thing he loved again. He didn't know if he was ever going to be able to get back in the water.

And at that moment, Mark made a decision. And that decision was to not allow fear to overpower him again. And that doesn't mean like conquer fear. It's like to have a relationship with fear where you can work with it. And so what he did is he deconstructed and fine-tuned and personalized emotion and resilience techniques to successfully strengthen his mindset and build a psychological framework that for him, it's very clear, it transcends high performance and it's more aligned toward a life of full integration. And I think that that's,

that's space after high performance. And we're starting with that language about like full integration. We're starting to talk about the alignment between mastery of craft and mastery of self for those two. And the amphitheater that he is involved in most often has real consequence in it. So it really creates a sharp edge to the words he chooses and the experiences he's had. And so the techniques I'm talking about have helped him also win an unprecedented three consecutive Oakley Big Wave Awards. And that has cemented

him as one of the best big wave surfers on the planet. And in this conversation, we discussed the strategies that he has developed to become intimately friendly with fear and also how you can apply those same insights and skills in your own life because you have fear too. So do I. Maybe just not, you know, facing down an 80 foot mountain of water, but like we've got our own fears. And that's one of the reasons I'm compelled to want to really pull out from the extraordinary doers that people have real consequence in their life. Like how, how do you do it? And like with that in mind, you know, he's surfing these waves

that are just, it's easy to say, okay, 80 foot wave, biggest wave surfed like that conjures up an image. But sometimes these things are called slabs. Sometimes these things are just so thick and so forceful. Maybe it's only, you know, a 15 foot face or something, but, or 20 foot face or something, or 20 foot face, but it's just like the amount of force that comes from these types of slabs and these waves is terrifying. And so that's where he purposely puts himself. So Mark believes that unlocking fear starts with being aware and in tune with motivations and your inner drive. And you've got to want the thing on the other side of the fear more than the fear itself. Because if you don't want the thing on the other side of it, then it's not going to happen. And sometimes the thing on the other side of it

is not the win. Sometimes that thing on the other side is like understanding how to work with yourself under perceived or real consequence. So that's becoming, you know, connected and friendly with fear and as a real hard thing to do. But until we understand that mechanism, like we really become constricted and bound up in, in the whatever world, wherever you are, if you don't know how to work with yourself, you know, under fear conditions. So it's a, I think one of the great conversations that we can have is about fear and how to manage it and how to work with it. And so, okay, with that, um, there's another thing that you can do if you love these podcasts and love these conversations, like help us grow. And there's two things that you can do. One is to tell

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codes that we provide. For the most part, all the codes that we provide are Finding Mastery. Every once in a while, it's something different. Okay. With that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Mark Matthews. Mark, how are you? I'm really good. I'm excited, excited to be talking to you. Yeah, that's two of us. You know, I've watched your career from a distance and like, you're one of those folks for me that I watch and I go, how? Like, how does he do that? And so obviously it's the big wave piece that's the easy part to watch, but also how you've organized your life and what has gone into you being able to really push some serious limits not only for the industry, but for the global understanding of what's possible

in the ocean. So I just want to say I'm stoked to meet you and have this conversation with you. Yeah, me too. It's funny you say that because I often see photos and footage of the waves that I ride, and I wonder how I do it too or why I do it as well. That's kind of, for me, I've spent so much time trying to decipher the motivation aspect of being able to constantly go out

and surf in these big waves and take the risk that I take. So yeah, don't worry. I feel the same way about what I do as what you do when you watch it. I said, so my first response was, oh, what are we going to talk about? I mean, I'm being tongue-in-cheek there because I think you've spent, when I talk to mutual friends of ours about you, that you have spent a lot of time working to understand resiliency and adaptations to stress

and being able to execute on command in consequential environments. And so I know that you're being coy here, but I know that you've spent a lot of time thinking about the inner life to be able to do the external extraordinary. Yeah, definitely. For me, that was where I made up for, let's say, a lack in sort of genetic talent or gifts as a surfer because I was never growing up sort of the best surfer like through through my adolescence and I was never the kid who won the state titles or the Australian titles or and when I did do a short spin on the world qualifying series trying to get onto the championship tour I didn't have what it took in that sort of performance aspect of surfing as what all the other surfers did. So for me, it was my career deviated down the big wave road where it was kind of lucrative in a way

because the sponsors loved the media attention you would get from surfing big waves. But for me, it was then, because I wasn't naturally fearless or anything like that, I was terrified in the ocean when I was young. So it became a question to me, okay, I can see this career path, but how can I stay motivated enough and keep pushing myself to continually surf these big waves to have this career? And then I could always sort of out-compete the other guys through sheer volume. If I could surf big waves over and over again throughout the year, more than what anyone else does, and take off on the waves that no one else wanted, that was kind of how I was going to build this career out of professional surfing. So that's why I think I became so interested in, in motivation because it was,

I was constantly trying to find out how I could motivate myself to do that. And motivate yourself to get on the edge more frequently. Is that a fair way to say it? Yeah. To push my own limits, to constantly be trying to find, I mean, waves that people didn't want to surf because when I went out and surfed

those waves and they looked ridiculous, that's where the media exposure came from. And the way my surf career works when you're not winning world titles, it's based on media exposure, photos in magazines, video footage, content going out into different media platforms and then based on how many people watch that is how you get paid from your sponsors so it's yeah i had to constantly find new waves that i've never surfed before that were ridiculously sort of dangerous to surf and and figure out ways to to want to keep doing that

and keep pushing myself and then deal with all the stress that goes along with that. That actually sounds like a really dangerous mix, you know, because I wouldn't have expected that for you. The dangerous part is, you know, that there's this expectation that you need to go deeper and bigger and something scarier and so to meet that public critical media expectation you go do it and which is very different than like i just love the way it feels to be in the quiet part of the

gnarliest environments and like you know okay so okay. So there's a very different approach. I hear you. It was a pleasant surprise to say, now listen, there's a business aspect to it. I'm a professional. There are expectations and demands on me being able to do this life, lifestyle and business more often. And part of that is I had to step it up. Yeah. And that's where I think I relate to corporate people and people of all walks of life because the majority of my stress came from, like you were just saying, the expectation of the audience that were watching me do what I do and my sponsors wanting me to be surfing big waves and getting that exposure but to me that was the majority of what I found stressful and exhausting

about surfing big wave um because like so I had the the two main motivators to do it was I absolutely love the feeling of riding big waves and and like training my abilities to deal with them and my performance level and getting better as a surfer so i can surf bigger waves and wipe out less and and the feeling of getting inside the barreling part of a huge wave in in surfing it's by far the best feeling in the sport of surfing so intrinsically i loved all of that aspect but then the other second motivator was always the career because i wanted to keep doing this and i wanted to earn money doing it and build a life for myself and my family from earning money doing that so i had the two motivators there and it was always the stressful

one the one that led to me burning out multiple times in my career which then led to like serious injuries and white baths always came on the back of the stress in my head around expectation like that's the one I've found more difficult to deal with and I think that's the one that I, the majority of people live with because we live fairly comfortable lives as a whole, as a population, where physical danger is not as prevalent in most people's lives. But the expectation part is still there, and it's probably gotten stronger and stronger sort of exponentially as social media has come out and the workplace has become so competitive and then job security is gone now. So everyone is kind of trying to deal with this same expectational stress that's in their lives.

That was the interesting part for me is kind of navigating that aspect. Because when I think about big wave surfing, if i tear away all the sponsorships or if i retired tomorrow and i had zero sponsors no one was coming to take photos of me or video and i and none of that was going out into the media i am so excited to just go and surf some big waves with my friends and it's like for me that feels energizing to go and do that like i can't wait but then when you add on no you're going to be doing this movie production these sponsors are going to want this from from this surf that you're going to go on all these people are going to see the way you surf all of that is what made the whole thing so stressful for me so how do you

how have you come to better understand how to deal with expectations and i say better assuming maybe you haven't mastered it but maybe you have so i don't want to exclude you know the range that you could answer there but how have you come to be able to deal with it i think the the where i've made the biggest, I guess, leaps in my ability to do it was learning about myself first. As much as I could understand about the way I function, from everything from doing personality profile tests to my IQ level to just understanding everything about myself and the way I function and why I hold certain values on things, why things motivate me, why things stress me. The more knowledge I had about myself, then I could see why those things were stressing me. And then I could put, let's say, tools and practices and guidelines in place around dealing with that stress.

So, for example, for me, I'm hyper introverted. Like every time I find a personality profile text, I'm hyper, hyper introverted. I'm also high on the neurotic end of the scale. And so learning that and understanding and and what goes along with be having those personality profiles then i could put things in place so it was like okay so i have to go and surf all these big waves throughout the year i need as much energy as i can to do that so i need to put limitations around the social aspects of what I do that are draining all my energy because

I'm an introvert so if I can outsource some of that when it comes to the media so with with social media and posting like for example dealing with say Instagram posting photos and seeing feedback on the photos like I've got rules in place where I never look so I post drop your phone never look at what happens or the interplay with that, and I have someone help me do it so it takes that load off my shoulders, so it gives me the energy to focus on the surf. And then even, like, the neurotic side is I understand

that the way my brain works when I am going to surf big waves, so we get the big swell forecast, I know that I'm going to be surfing waves within a week's time based on the weather charts. And for that week lead up, I know the way my brain works is that neurotic part takes over and it's way more on the pessimistic side. So I know that, let's say, the TV that plays in the back of my head constantly is going to play all the worst-case scenarios that could possibly happen in this surf that I'm going to have. And I just know that that's a function of what I have. So then I can put in a few different techniques.

And I mean, this is where I love talking to you because you would deal with athletes who have this and have all these amazing techniques to deal with that. But like for me, some beneficial ones were sort of like questioning those thoughts that are coming into my head and reframing why they're there. Nothing kind of beats the preparation factor of dealing with those thoughts.

If I can prepare for the worst-case scenario and have really detailed plans in place when that thing goes wrong, then that voice and that nerve and that neurotic side quietens down a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of rambling on here but there's so many things once you know yourself that you can then put in place to be able to do whatever it is that stresses you out that much better when you were saying i'm rambling i was like no no i keep going like you're right on it and i never know if i'm talking oh the wrong person. Oh, no, man. I'm listening on the other side of this quiet so I can observe and really let it marinate. And the thing that pops for me is that, first of all, you are compelled to investigate your inner life. I want to know where that compelling drive comes from.

And it might just be because, hey, listen, my environment is dangerous. And if I don't sort out my thought patterns and my tendencies, I'm going to get myself hurt, you know, because the expectations and standards are so high and the conditions are so dangerous that I have to invest in my inner life, which is not necessarily the case for most people because the stresses are not physically dangerous. And, you know, so there's not that need, like I have to sort this out. It's like this slow boiling of a frog effect that many of us have where it's like, before we know, it's like, ah, I kind of lost my way. I'm a little miserable. Like, is this really what I signed up for life?

So you've got ahead of that curve. I want to know where that came from for you to invest so much energy to explore your inner life. but before you answer that i just want to add one piece which is for you to eloquently talk about your neurotic nature i'm just like nice job dude because it's an honest tendency that we all have and i don't know if you're referring back to the you know the big five personality traits. And if I had to guess, yeah, if I had to guess, see, the fact that you know the big five, I'm like, yeah, Mark's done his work. Like on the inner life, like, okay, so I'm imagining, can I just guess, can we play this game? Definitely.

Yeah, so let's go high on openness to ideas. High? Just above average, yeah. Yep, yep. Oh, just above average on openness to ideas and experiences? Just above average, yeah. Okay. Conscientiousness, I'm guessing it's high? Yeah, mid-range to high.

I found with the personality profiling test, and this is what one question i had to you actually i'll ask it after you keep keep going with it oh yeah okay um okay we already talked about introversion extroversion so you're low on the extroversion okay uh agreeableness hyper introverted like the hyper introvert yeah so you get that yeah yeah and then agreeableness i don't know i i haven't i don't have a sense i mean your personality is really good so i'm imagining it's high but i don't know it is yeah it's high above average as well like a point above average i think and then neurotic you know like okay we're scoring up on that one too and by the way my understanding of like just

being in in the in the space where people are world leading is that uh openness to ideas is pretty high for most people extroversion is a little bit higher than introversion so you've got uniqueness there but neuroticism is high you know ocd perfectionistic you know highly anxious you know that unsettled internal scratchinessiness is actually pretty high for most people. But it just becomes pro-social. It becomes acceptable in high-stress, alpha-competitive environments because it looks like you care and you'll do whatever it takes. Outside of high-stakes environments, it's like, dude, chill out. What are you know outside of outside of like high stakes environments it's like dude chill out what are you so kind of kooky yeah exactly exactly it's so interesting but my

only thing is when i so that was a question that i have for you was when doing those tests, I found that I think my results might get skewed a little because when I read the questions and answer the questions, I'm framing it to my everyday life and not necessarily to my profession as a surfer and as a big wave surfer so it's like because i remember doing them and it was an assessment a super detailed one and it just and it came out that it was like as far as like being hyper successful in in different areas i didn't really have the right traits for that but then when i framed the questions in my sport of professional big wave surfing then all of a sudden they come out a little different like you said that i would i'd be way higher on the openness scale in in the sport like when i think about that but but my thing is that in the sport of big wave surfing my openness to things, like that world is so exciting to me. But then if I think about everyday world, everyday life compared to that,

like that's kind of reframed my mind now where everything else seems a little bit boring. Like as far as if I gave the example of like if I went sightseeing, like so if I go sightseeing in a city or something to me or like all of those different things, if I'm on holiday, if it's not surfing and not surfing big waves, then it's nowhere near as interesting to me.

And then as far as like conscientiousness, like I'm so conscientious when it comes to surfing big waves, but then everywhere else in my life, I'm like, ah, like i'll get by you know the consequences aren't that big to me so then i might not when i do that i don't come out hyper conscientious but i think if i framed it around big wave surfing then i'd become like the trait would come become hyper conscientious i think this is does that make sense like i'm yeah i think i'm answering but you know well i think you. I think it's really important.

This is the challenge with subjective psychological exams is who's my reference? What's the population I'm comparing myself to? That's one challenge. The second challenge is you're answering the questions. It's not like it's objective. It's like you're trying to figure out who you are and most of these assessments have high face validity which means you can read the question and get a sense of what the questioner is looking at or trying to get at and you know obviously if you have average intelligence you can sort that out which you definitely do so you know like i

would say your reference point is unique. And to me, those that operate in consequential environments are a bit like, oh, I don't know, what is an animal that can see more colors or can hear like a larger range of sounds? It's a little bit like that because it's been, because of the time you've spent being in it and the stakes being really high, you become more acutely sensitive to, you know, sounds and nuances and textures that expand your understandings of how you work, humans work, and the world works. That's one of the reasons I'm so attracted to, you know, people and environments that really put by definition push and so anyways yeah so i think you're a bit of i wish i could find the the better example for an animal that can see more colors or more sounds but i don't have that available yeah it's amazing i i feel like like i might have that in that world of big wave surfing,

but then everywhere, because that's so hyper exciting to me, then everything else gets dampened down a little bit less. Like everything else, I guess because, I don't know, it ends up rewiring your sort of adrenaline response to something so thrilling, then everything else then sort of becomes a little dampened, like depending on what it is. I mean, I still find social situations or public speaking when I go up and give a keynote, like to me, that is as scary as surfing big waves. So that's definitely with the introversion, extroversion parts.

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dampening effect, that muting of the sensitivities that are required, the aliveness that's required to be in those amphitheaters of risk? How do you manage that? I don't know where the dragon doesn't need to breathe fire anymore. How do you manage that side of you? Yeah, it was, it's difficult. And it came to, like you were saying, that internal sort of reflection and learning about yourself because for at least a week after I served big waves, if not longer, depending on how the session went and how taxing it was, I'd have a week that it would feel like, I don't want to say like depression in the clinical sense,

but like I'd be lethargic in a way where everything is so dampened that it's like the colors of the world became a little damper and doing everything like it's like you're tired, but it's beyond that. It's like you've taxed your system that makes everything fun and so much that for a week or so, I would feel that way. And I had to keep that in check because as far as like when you're dealing with relationships, personal relationships and professional relationships, I had to learn to keep that in check and understand that, okay, I've just surfed these huge waves this day i know for a week or so i'm like i'm i'm going to act in certain ways that i need to keep in check so that it doesn't doesn't um affect personal

relationships especially like i might be shorter with people than what i would normally be or like different things like that does that make sense sense? And then, of course, in a physical way, I know that if I don't stop and rest and really rejuvenate in that week or two weeks, because you feel so addicted to the high, right? Like I said, when I come out of, say, six hours of surfing Jaws in Hawaii, the adrenaline and stuff is so much like a drug that you want to stay on that. So it's like you want to go out and party that night, and then through the next week, you want to drink Red Bull for breakfast and 100 coffees because your body's trying to stay on that high.

And it's painful to come off that high. It's a day or two that feels physically painful. The resting is really hard. You have restless leg syndrome. Your body's exhausted, and you get bouts of anxiety because of that. But I know if I don't go through that day of resetting myself and i carry on i can try and stay on the high for as long as i can i did this a lot when i was young then the bad stuff happens like whether it's really bad injuries or or the sort of chronic illness i kind of had bouts of um of uh like

autoimmune problems where it was a chronic fatigue and stuff like that when i was young just from staying on that high for too long yeah what you're describing could be adrenal burnout or adrenal fatigue yeah and it would make sense yeah when we think about a soldier warrior coming back from that amphitheater we'd say well, yeah, it would take some time properly to decompress, you know, and the same is true, different environments, but the same type of neurochemical response to having to be on and mustering all of that really incredible neuro chemicals in our brain, that there's a fatigue that comes, there's a cost, there's a rebound effect that takes place. And it sounds like you've been through some hard times with it. And because of that, you are

able to eloquently talk about it. And I'd love to push on and help me understand because you're driving this conversation. It's something I'm fascinated with, but I'm not sure people are ready to talk about. So I always ask, you can say no, if you don't want to talk about this, but when I say, I don't think people are, I don't think that the general people like us, let alone the extraordinary, like you want to talk about the dark side of pursuing potential of really trying to figure out how to live in the most purposeful way and to do it in across any condition right to be able that's to me that's part of what mastery is is to be able to artistically express across any condition and to do that we've got to push against edges and there's a dark side to pursuing a substandard

approach to mastery which would be high achievement or high performance but i'd love to hear if you can add some context like does something come to mind about an experience you've had or a time you had that was uh you know exemplifies the darker side yeah i just want to go back like so when when you were referencing like like general population to to myself and what i do and i and i have like conversation around this a bit because i'm like and it does seem and I don't want to downplay what I do, but I feel like the performance around what I do in big wave surfing isn't amazing in comparison to like, I don't believe you need to be like a freakish genetically gifted person like the way a LeBron James would need to be to do what he's done.

Does that make sense? Like I feel like I'm a lot more just like, or like a Kelly Slater in a way, like there's some pretty freakish genetic traits for him to be able to do what he's done and done for so, so long. Whereas for what I do, I don't think a lot of it comes from anything like that. I feel a lot more just closer to normal people and the way they function compared to when I look at a super high performer and what they do.

I get that it's high performing when people watch what I do. It's like, whoa, that's crazy. But I honestly believe I can grab any half-talented surfer if I grab them at a young age and get them to do what I do. If they made all the sacrifices and put all their effort into it, I feel like I could get pretty much any level of talent surfer at a young age to do what i do whereas you can't get any talent like level of talent surfer to become a mick fanning and win three world titles or kelly slater and 11 world titles like there's some genetic components that change that same with like a high level basketball

like ron james so i just feel a lot closer to that general public when I look at at mastery and stuff like that does that make sense no I mean I'm getting all the I'm getting all of the Australian humility that you could possibly say you know the downplay yeah okay no fair enough but like you know but i appreciate the sentiment like i do appreciate that you're saying you know like if you just put in hard work and could figure out how to channel some fear and some stress you too could do this no i think yeah definitely but from a very young age like don't like okay i've got a thousand hours behind me but from a very young age i think i could get anyone like it's

the difference is it's like what i do on the way to surf the way is basic surfing like it's not like what what my body has to do is not amazing in a way where if you look at what kelly slade has to do on a wave or what gabriel medina for example or john john florence like the top of the top surfers like the aerial maneuvers that they do the body where they put the way their body responds to waves like that level of surfing has a genetic component to it i believe like you need the 10 000 hours plus pretty freakish genetics all matched into one to get to that level which is the same as the highest of high level masters in in any sport and and when you start to get in the realms of academic world where it's the like the top of the top neuroscientists the top of the top engineers the top of the top people in those

fields like there's that component i just don't think what i do is in that realm even though it seems like it is like it's but there's so many like it's more that the mastery part of what I do is mastering, managing that fear and the stress, you know, to do something consistently that other people don't want to do consistently because it's scary, not because they technically can't do it. Like, of course, I can't take a 40-year-old and build the surfing technique to be able to do it like of course i can't take a 40 year old and build the surfing technique that to be able to do it but it's not it's average level surfing with high level mastery of of fear and anxiety that's the way i kind of look at what i do let's take that let's take and go right into that and i'll use an example about like a place in a traditional sport gymnastics it's like level there's 10 levels and around level six seven into that eight range is where there's this high dropout for kids that are playing gymnastics and it's not that

the skill becomes so much harder but i mean it's hard what they're doing in those levels but like the danger factor goes up you know backflips on the beam is kind of one of those places that it's like ah i don't know if it's worth it right and so there's this natural kind of dropout so it's a it's like a choke point you know in in the convergence of physical skill, mental skill, technical skill, and passion. How bad do you want it? And so there's those types of things in your sport. But if you drive, if we condense, to your point about like the fear piece, facing fear and risk, if we condense the conversation around that, what have you figured out?

Like, how can you do so well with risk and fear? What are some of those mechanical techniques? Well, I think, and you'll be able to answer this better, to me, the sort of fundamental starting point to to deal with fear is that and i use this line my keynote it's like you've got to want it more than you should hear it so you've got to want the result on the other side or you've you've got to want the experience that you're going to have when you overcome that fear more than you fear doing what it takes to get there and and then whether there is a genetic component or not to that to to get to a super high level of dealing with with fear or

whether it's i mean when you watch the free solo guy like if there's a tinge of asperger's in there where he doesn't feel emotions like like the rock climbing guy with no no roads if you watch that documentary he if he doesn't feel fear the same way as a normal person does so and so i think feel emotions like like the rock climbing guy with no no roads if you watch that documentary if he doesn't feel fear the same way as a normal person does so and so i think fear is like that the motivation to want that experience more than you feel doing what it takes to get there there may be a genetic component that that allows you to deal with that fear at a crazy high level compared to most people. I don't think I have that because I can only do it in this one realm of what I do. I can't do it in anything else.

Everything else terrifies me, whether it's snowboarding or doing anything on land or driving a car fast or doing all these different things. They all terrify me. But it was just like the perfect combination of the motivation to be a professional surfer and then managing that fear. So to go back to your question, the starting point is the desire, you know, to want to do it, I think. And to me, whether you have a genetic component or not,

you can build that desire to varying degrees. You can become very motivated at different things. I use three pretty simple things like what, why, and who. What does success look like? Why do you want to succeed? Then who's going to help you get there? There's three things I mention when I give a keynote. why do you want to succeed and then who's going to help you get there so there's sort of three things i mentioned when i when i give a keynote so so a real clarity and being really diligent

around knowing what success looks like for you short term uh all the way into a long-term plan and so like week to week month to month year to year, and being really clear on what that success looks like. It might change as you partake in the journey towards that success. It might deviate and become a different picture, but there's got to be clear pictures to motivate yourself. So you have that clarity around what you're chasing. And then is the sort of meaning of why you want to be successful if you if you can like build that aspect and to me i think it was like a few moments when i was young that that that was brought out in me um i lived with my mom when when my parents split and um

there was this period i would have been 17 or 18, I think. And I was living with my mom and she got really sick with a really treatable disease. But the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with her. And she basically, she had vertigo where she couldn't get out of bed, couldn't do anything, like crawl along the ground to the bathroom, would be nauseous and sick all the time and couldn't get, so she couldn't work at all for a couple of months. And right in that time, so I was like, okay, I'm going to have to take care of my mom for the rest of her life if this keeps going on so i had this crazy motivation at the exact time that i got invited on a trip where i was faced with the like a magazine trip so the magazine invited me down there to get photos that would be published and that trip um like that time it coincided with like the biggest waves I'd ever surfed, probably like 500% bigger than anything I'd experienced and some of the biggest waves in the surf industry.

And before that, I'd never really at all wanted to be a big wave surfer. I didn't think I could get that working, I could help take care of my mom. So this abnormal drive in that moment, in the biggest waves I'd ever surfed. And then all of a sudden, I surfed these waves, saw the photos after, and I'm like, hold on a minute, I can do this. It was like this perfect storm that put me in this position that helped me find out what I was capable of. And I don't think if that hadn't have played out like that, I never really would have found out that that was possible. So it's like the direction of what you're chasing, you need to know. But then I had that reason that was beyond just myself and wanting to help a loved one. I think that's where you find that ability to push yourself through that fear. So the direction, the reason when you tie a loved one to that, and then you get the intrinsic reward of what it feels like

to go beyond your comfort zone and experience something that you didn't think you could do. So then you get that intrinsic reward. And then what I did to keep up with all the other more talented surfers out there was surround myself with the really talented team, best photographers, best filmers, best water safety crew, like all these amazing people. I just, for me, that was an emphasis as well as dealing with the fields, bringing these guys.

And then I could be more successful. I could manage more stress. I could deal with more fear. It was that perfect storm of what, why and who, what does success look like why do i want to succeed and and who will help me get there and i think dealing with fear creating the motivation that's the starting point so you can get clarity around that and then you can dive into the the detail around all these other small little things that can help you along the way like the the sort of cognitive behavioral therapy techniques that can help you manage stress like

so they've got the starting point of the motivation and they kick off on your journey and then you can add all the different things that affect your ability to manage stress. And I mean, you know, there's so many interesting things that can help you manage that. But without that starting point, you're basically pushing shit up ill if you don't have that motivation. And then that's why that motivation is an interesting factor in itself. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I know you understand this based on the clarity that you just described it and the nuances that you're able to add to it. And so you basically said, let's not talk about tactics. Let's not talk about breathing or self-talk. Let's go way upstream. What are you doing? Because if you're going to do something well, and you're going to be found in a position where you're over your skis or over whatever on a surfboard like you're out in the depths where you're not comfortable you're not proficient because you're trying to do something extraordinary that you better understand what you're doing it for because you're going to get tested exactly you know yeah and i had this

intellectually like i grew up surfing i don't know if you if you knew that but i grew up surfing and so i can really appreciate what you just described and then i just did this thing where i paddled from a stand-up paddle from an island off the shore of california and it's just over 30 miles and i got to mile 21 and flat out straight out i mean it's a joke almost like for 47 minutes stand still got caught in a rip and i'm exhausted as i've ever been like delirious uh hallucinating like i was in a pretty bad way and it hit me like i and i was in i was i was scared i was angry i was trying to find joy in it i was trying to disassociate from the pain i was feeling and but it hit me like this big old lightning bolt like your purpose better be bigger than

your pain because your pain is really big right now and so exactly thought that like when pain whether that's fear or physical pain when pain is bigger than purpose guess who wins yeah yeah and i mean that's so eloquently put and it's like and to me that is the the more important factor than all the other small techniques because and even though they if i say they're small techniques they're amazingly effective but they're very difficult to to build like it's building experience so so you know for for surfing and and if i was so let's say i could 100 with your background in surfing you grew up surfing i could take you to and tow you into a wave that's 40 foot high at jaws and i wouldn't be worried about it. I reckon I could do it for sure.

But the training we would have to do to do that, to get your comfort level to be able to do that. So all the techniques, the preparation would be the free dive training or holding your breath for a long time. And I don't know if you've experienced that. You probably have with your work with the Red Bull guys. But doing that and retraining your base instinct and your brain to learn to be comfortable without oxygen is so difficult. Like, it's so painful.

And there's so much anxiety involved. But you can do it for sure. And anyone can do it. But it's like you have to want to do that like you have to really want to go and surf those big waves to get up every second morning and go do this underwater training that really does feel horrible when you're pushing yourself you know like so i think that's the example but desire first and then you can build this amazing skill set that then makes that environment manageable and and exciting rather than terrifying you know like that's kind of what shifts it you know oh that's good and when

you know overriding your dna is really hard and that's really like your purpose your why like what are you doing this for because it's so hard to override the survival instincts that whether it's to take a gulp or get past your third gulp you know where it's like you're not actually taking air and you're just figuring out how to deal with that gag reflex it's so like you've done 200 times more Naya, but it's so freaking hard. The same is here's, can I, can I get pissed off with you for just a minute? Because this, this like agitates me and I don't know why I'm getting agitated even while you're talking, because you're really clear. And for me, it's like, I love what you're saying and where I start

to get agitated is like, when I folks okay so tell me like what are the principles that are most important in your life and they'll rip a couple off say what are the what are like those characteristics you know like the values that are let's say three top three values that you really want to be about say someone who says compassion or love or humor or whatever, but they're just words, right? They're just words until you figure out how to override your DNA, the impulse to not be that person when it's hard. And so I don't know why I get all internally scratchy about this.

I really don't. I need to figure this out a little bit but i do get unsettled like i think it's because of the i'm talking myself through this right now the high regard that i have for men and women like you that really put their money where their mouth is they line up their value systems with the way that they live and it's not a hack tell me there's no hacks please tell me there's no hacks exactly there's no me there's no hacks. Please tell me there's no hacks. Exactly. There's no, right? There's no hacks to this thing.

Jesus. I mean, your pain on this, that scratchiness that you feel, like I feel that exact thing because I mean, even in your field, and this is what makes you one of the best because this annoys you, but in your field, selling the hacks is the most lucrative thing ever.

I could go around and teach companies a million different hacks for doing things. And I'd be so rich doing it. But the reality of the hacks being effective, if the reason isn't there to do it and to put yourself through it is is just like they don't work like the base is is the reason like you're like you gotta build the reason but that and but i think that's buildable like you can find these reasons if you like deep dive into yourself and really maybe not at a young age i think that's where the breaking point is very hard to sort of um to future plan at like a long-term future plan at young age and whether that's due to the way your brain's developed at that point i think it's

difficult but but for older people you you should be able to find those reasons like you and and they will i said it the other day just off cuff in front of an audience it was like okay if i if i was asked and i just used myself example if i was asked to run a marathon like tomorrow like my ability to run that marathon would like i'd probably make like the way i have this permanent leg injury i'd maybe make 10 miles before i collapsed and just gave up it would just be so hard but if i if you took my newborn daughter and and said to me okay you gotta run this marathon and and you need to get there in time to save your daughter newborn daughter's life. Like I could break a record running that marathon

and it wouldn't like my body would do it. It would figure it out. Like I think that's the meaning difference. And if you ask anyone that, like what they would be capable to do if it meant something that special, like something that important to them, then you can get a sense of what your abilities might be like i'm not saying i could run an ultra marathon i'd probably break down at the marathon level but but you will find out what your capabilities are if you really dig deep in something that's special and then you can know because it and you see it in the corporate world it's like these companies these big companies are trying to motivate their employees to step out of their

comfort zone they might be highly technically skilled employees but then and that goes along with maybe being introverted because they're the software engineers but then they the employers want those engineers to become managers and people person and lead big teams and for them that's the most uncomfortable thing ever and then the companies are like well why don't they want to put in the effort to build these skills to do it and i'm like well give them the reason like you've got like your reason is that your company's going to become so unbelievably successful your share prices are going to go through the roof which is that your company is going to become so unbelievably successful. Your share prices are going to go through the roof, which means that your top line board members and all that are going to hit all these amazing bonuses and make millions of dollars.

Whereas that individual employee, you're not giving them a good enough reason to go through that. They just would rather stay as an engineer and more power to them like if that's what they do they probably express and find more joy in things outside of work than they then they want to push themselves inside of work for this small reward you know like so there's like this disconnect well he's not not finding the reason of that that that matches the the company's success of what that will mean for that individual employee like you got to find that i do want to hear some of your tactics when it's you've got your purpose right and it's not going according to plan it's a heavy condition you feel like you're constricting you know and and it's hard to be the man you want to be and it's dangerous i do want to know in those situations like how you work

how do you operate in that tell me a story right like it put bring it to life so i could feel you in that environment okay i'll go i'll go through a couple of examples that might bring out a few different like techniques so you built the desire you want to go and do something that's scary um so for me there's always the the week or month or whatever it is lead up to that scary moment so i know a week out that the waves are going to be huge and i'm heading to surf huge waves and so dealing with with that voice in your head that's basically telling you all the things that can go wrong in that surf.

So you have to sort of manage that neurotic part of your brain that everyone's going to have when they do something scary. So some different things that I would do there is a questioning technique. And I learned this from a book written by Byron Katie. And she has a website called The Work.

And it's really cool. It's just a simple reframing questionnaire technique. And you always write things down when you deal with your mind because your mind can justify itself at the speed of light. You can't combat it. You've got to write it down. So it's a simple questioning technique. So what is the thought?

So you write down what is the thought that you're having. I might be having the thought, okay, I'm going to fall off first wave, hit the reef, and break my back. That's the thought. And I can see it so clear. So I write that down. And then I say, is that thought true? break my back. That's the thought. And I could see it so clear. So I write that down. And then I say, is that thought true? I mean, in my head, it seems true, but I can't predict the future. I have no idea what's going to happen. I might turn up on the day and

for some reason, the conditions are right. And I might not even surf in a week's time. So I don't know for sure that that will play out. So I've written down what the thought is. And then the reality is that thought's not actually true because I don't know for sure that it's going to happen. So it's not true. And then, so the next question is, how does it make you feel? So how does that thought make me feel? If I sit there, play that thought out in my head, I can physically feel the anxiety. I can feel like my heart rate will elevate. I'll get sweaty palms. My muscles will tense. I'll feel the anxiety. So the thought makes me feel terrible, makes me feel anxious and then the final question which refrains it all it's like okay so write down who would i be in this moment without that thought and then all of a sudden when you think okay so who would i be if i wasn't thinking this way and then straight away your body relaxes you're like oh i feel so much more i'm way more confident without that thought you know i'm calm i'm relaxed i I'm way more confident without that thought. I'm calm.

I'm relaxed. I'm centered in the moment without that thought. My natural skills can play out without that thought. So who you are without that thought is confident, relaxed, the anxiety, let's go. So in the lead up to a big swell, when I'm playing around with that thought in my head or that constant neurotic, pessimistic voice in my head, I will use that technique over and over again at different moments through the day to sort of bring myself back into the present, let go of the scary thoughts and relax my body. Because if I do that, if I don't do that, and I dwell on those thoughts for too long, and then they have the physical reaction, that anxiety, by the time I go to surf in a week's time,

it feels like my body's gone through a thousand wipeouts before I've even put a foot in the water. I'm actually exhausted on the day of the surf. Absolutely exhausted. I can get up to surf because the adrenaline will kick in, but I don't surf at my best. But if I manage the level of physical anxiety that I have in the lead up, so the mental anxiety is there, but I use that technique to stop dwelling on the thoughts for too long so I don't have the physical response. Then I turn up on the day and I'm in way better shape physically to deal with whatever may play out. It's a strategy that you use to face down a thought that is creating a over activated emotional state that doesn't serve

you well yeah and that emotional state then has that physical effect on your body that's what you don't want that right yeah physical being drained yeah so that's that's one and i mean but again the what helps you quell that thought is being prepared and experienced and having done the hard work first. All the breath hold training, all the preparation around if things go wrong, this is our safety plan. We know exactly what we're going to do if this happens. So if I black out underwater because I've been held down for too long, this is what we're going to do if this happens. So if I black out underwater because I've been held down for too long,

this is what we're going to do. Safety drivers are going to pick me up when I come to the surface. They're going to bring me to this boat. This boat is where the defibrillator is. They can bring me back to life there. We know how far away the closest hospital is. This is the number you're going to call for the helicopter. They've been told that if something goes wrong,

they may be on call to come and make a rescue. You've got this amazing plan for worst-case scenario in place, and then that then settles that thought process down because you've already mapped out and given your subconscious the escape route to the worst-case scenario. So that's the most beneficial version but then you use the technique if it's still there you know okay so so take me to what is one of the scariest surfing events in history right red bull cape fear and i think

you're one of the co-creators or the creator of this event and help me understand like give me a view of what's inside your mind when the conditions are heavy and there's only a handful of you out in the water and it's so dangerous like what what is give me a view inside your mind of what what's happening at that point maybe maybe pick a moment in time like you're just sitting out back or you're actually turned and committing to a wave. Yeah. I thought also to get detailed and specific on those points is like in those moments when that huge wave is approaching

and it's like your turn to take off on this wave. And no one does this better than Shane Dyer, who in my eyes is probably the best big wave surfer on the planet over the last decade. And so this big wave is approaching you. And in order to ride that big wave perfectly, it's all about positioning. Like you have to have the perfect positioning to be able to catch paddle in and catch this wave and ride it successfully but in that moment when you the perfect position is actually a position that looks like this huge amount of water is going to break

on top of you so your natural sort of survival instinct fear and and anxiety is is telling you paddle out paddle out quickly before this this way otherwise this way is going to break on top of you so you're battling the instinct to paddle out like versus the where you actually have to stay where you are risk the way breaking on you in order to catch it to actually actually catch it. So it's like this battle, and I always use the example, it's like that movie Braveheart where Mel Gibson's got his army in that one spot and the other huge army is approaching them and the horses are coming, charging at them with the spears, and he's yelling to his army, hold, hold, like stay in position, in formation.

And that's what's going to give you the best chance of success. And it's kind of like in those moments, like when you're surfing Cape Fear in those here and you've got to allow like all that ability that you've built up over the years to take over rather than the fear and anxiety that you're feeling in that moment. And then it's the, I mean, the motivators come into play. Like at a competition like Cape Fear, the motivators are heightened. And anyone who says that they just surf big waves or even just surfing only intrinsic motivators is is lying because there's like you want to if you win that

event that's what it means this for your life or and and even means this for your maybe the the social motivators that you have so there's kind of like those different motivators at play the whole time. And they're heightened when you're surfing in a big wave event, or they're heightened when there's cameras around. So then you're balancing your decision-making based on those motivators because you don't want to, and I'm, I felt I'm guilty of this all the time. I make bad decisions in those moments where I'm thinking of the external motivators. I'm thinking too much about my career where if I ride the biggest wave of the day, it's going to mean this for my career.

And then I make the wrong decisions based on the conditions. So I've always had to play around with those ones. That's really well said. And you've got like a trifecta you've got financial you've got social which are two externals and then you've got the internal which is the way it's going to feel to unlock something or be part of something you know yeah and and you've got to be true to yourself that they are motivated i think i think a lot of people don't want to admit that they might be the

motivators but they are they just this is the way we're built as humans and and what is it that you are searching for now as an adult man you know what is it that you're certainly like it's no longer just to help your mom like you that kind of changed at some point maybe it still is maybe i missed that point but like what are you doing this for i think i think it's the the combination of those three things it's like the career the the the success the feeling of riding the waves. I mean, for me, everything just changed when I had a daughter as a first child. And I can't even emphasize how different that makes you look at life.

Like, unbelievably. People tried to explain that to me, but now I just, I never thought it would have that big an effect as a motivator, but then also for me managing risk because someone is that reliant on you is, uh, that's a big changing point. I often think like, so what, so your question was what, what are you searching for in life?

And basically that's why I do what I do. Um, it answers that question. And to me, because I always think, why? I can do it. But I think when you look at surfing and you're a surfer, so you understand this well, I think the sport of surfing fits perfectly, let's say, the psychological framework that makes humans happy like like it's like a

constant never-ending journey towards a meaningful goal right so that's kind of the underlying psychology that makes all of us happy is like we're moving towards a meaningful goal. And the path that you're on needs to be like that border of order and chaos. Like it's got to be where it's difficult enough to keep you interested, but you're able to manage the anxiety and fear perfectly with this skill set. So it's somewhere on that border where it's not boring, but it's not too hard, and it's like that perfect path. And sometimes it's too hard, sometimes it's too boring, and you navigate between the two, but you're constantly moving

towards the goals. But surfing has that because it's impossible to perfect because every way is different. So on one level, you're constantly looking for perfect waves and the conditions are constantly different for the rest of your life. So you can be chasing these waves nonstop. So it's a perfect life goal. And when you add the element of career to that framework,

it just becomes more meaningful because then it's like the hunt and gather instinct. I'm going out there and I'm earning money for my family. So that just adds to the notion of surfing being this, for me, this kind of like perfect framework for what makes people happy because when when i'm i'm on that in my career so so for me when i'm out surfing chasing big waves riding the biggest waves of my life or just surfing in general it's that perfect constant progression towards a meaningful goal that scares me enough to be super interesting, it's exciting, and I can build my skill set along the way

and constantly see progression in the way I do what I do. So they're all the perfect touch points. And you have all of that. And then the byproducts of that framework are then happiness and presence like like you have more moments of being present in life and like so they're the two byproducts of for me surfing big waves I get that I get so many moments of that presence and I get that that that happiness and fulfillment of taking care of my family from this sport and the intrinsic excitement and adrenaline from it.

So it's like the perfect storm for me. But it's still that same framework. And for people, it doesn't need to be a sport. It could be their career. If they're lucky enough to have that framework as their career in whatever field they're in then you you're just going to be that much happier for life or but then people might need the combination of the two which is like the career part is making them money so that's like they're going out and hunting make their money but then they

have their hobbies on the side that fulfill those other needs that they get that progression towards something that gives them all that those moments of presence and happiness yeah really cool yeah i think about this a lot you can probably tell yeah that's what makes it that's what makes because i'm always trying to explain that question of why I keep doing it. And to me, when I look into psychology and what makes people happy and stops them from being depressed, while there's, of course, all those, the physical accesses, the diet, exercise, sleep, there's the relationship aspects, the social that you have to get right, the emotional intelligence that you need and the IQ and the skill set and all these different things, I think that underlying framework is that progression towards a goal that's meaningful and you see the results as you move along that line and it's difficult enough that it keeps you excited.

That's kind of the base. And I seem to be, when you look at that framework, you can pretty much map every person who's relatively happy, their life to that framework, and it works, regardless of what they do. They might be a professional, like the Dalai Lama, for example. This is like going to that extreme. Because people often go, I want to to chase happiness or i want to chase presence

like because presence makes you happy so the goal is presence but i don't know that that i think the they need to be the byproducts of what you're chasing or doing because like if the dalai lama or if a buddhist monk is chasing they a goal of enlightenment. So they've got the ultimate unattainable goal, which is the same in surfing because you're never going to find the perfect way because it's always going to be different, you know? So you're going to be constantly searching. We've got the ultimate unattainable goal.

And to get there along the way, we've got something to go towards for the rest of our lives and you see natural progression in surfing and you see natural progression in meditating to get to enlightenment that you get better and better as along the way it teaches you a whole lot of stuff about yourself. It helps your life. Even an example that's so far removed from surfing,

which is the Dalai Lama and meditation and enlightenment, it still fits on the same framework. Really cool. Super sophisticated. And if I gave you a quick hit and you're just going to say it in a word or two or whatever, how do you finish this thought? It all comes down to? It all comes down to, I'd say, meaning.

Find the meaning and you'll solve everything else along the way. You'll figure everything out if you find the meaning. But just know that that meaning changes throughout life. Because, I mean mean i was chasing wanting to have a cool car and a hot girlfriend when i was when i was 18 and that's what drove me in surfing and then now it's about looking after my daughter so but it's still meaning how about this the crossroad was um there's been a few i think that there hasn't been a bigger crossroad for me and it's something i'm dealing with now than having my first child and it's hard for people

at a young age to understand that but trust me have that some way in your plan of get ready to set up your life to be able to enjoy that moment as best as you can because it will be probably most likely the most important thing in your life and most fulfilling and greatest experience how about this um relationships when i say that what happens for you? that make life worth living, but then also can be the most toxic thing in life and can destroy your life if you have bad ones. So navigating them is unbelievably important and unbelievably difficult. How about, finish this, I am?

I am a dad now, a husband, a surfer, a keynote speaker, and a human. And would you just consider yourself a risk taker or a risk mitigator? Or do you think of yourself as skilled at risk or something in between I think they're a little bit of each of them I think I am highly skilled at mitigating risk but I also have an element to want to take risk yeah okay and then like kind of big old question here is how do you but I also have an element to want to take risk. Yeah, okay. And then kind of a big, bold question here is, how do you think about or articulate or even define mastery?

I think there's a specific definition to mastery, but I think the most interesting aspect of mastery is understanding that the journey towards mastery is the fulfilling part and not the moment that you've mastered something or the moment you've won because once you do that, the following day you're going to be like, oh, what do I do next? It's over because we don't live in the past. You don't live constantly off the back of all your past achievements. You constantly move forward to something. So I think the interesting thing of mastery is believing and understanding that the journey towards mastery

is the fulfilling part, the exciting part, the part that you fall in love with. What a treat, Mark. Like, what a treat to have this conversation. I really appreciate the nuances and the texture and the thoughtfulness that you have in being able to articulate what's hard to talk about right which is psychology because it's invisible and i can tell you put in the work so i what a wonderful treat to hear you think and how you think so i want to say thank

you for your time yeah thank you for your time and and for podcast. Like I said, I mean, I think it was before we started, it's enlightening to listen to you break down these different performers. And, yeah, it's so interesting. And I learned so much. So keep doing what you're doing. That's great. Okay, where can people find you? Where can they follow along with what you're doing?

Probably I'm pretty slack on this because I don't love social media, but Instagram at Mark Matthews is where I probably post my most stuff. If there's any corporate companies out there that would like me to come and talk to their employees, markmatthews.com is my website. So, yeah, those two as well perfect and i can't imagine you know folks listening to this going yeah you know like that's good for another company but not mine like you know there's you're touching on the gold it's gold in there yeah yeah in the last 10 years i think i've spoken to every single audience in, I think, like at least 80% of countries across the world. And the message is the same because we're all the same.

Basically, we're all so different, but fundamentally, we're all the same. And that's the awesome thing. That's why I've learned to love keynote speaking is because of seeing the similarities between people and their amazing similarities that we all share. So that's what's made me love doing something that I hated so much as a natural introvert. One of my missions in life is to help people learn how to live in the present moment and how to condition and train their mind and how to organize their inner life to do just that, because that's where potential is revealed. It's where wisdom is revealed. It's where love happens. It's where relationships, the textures of them can be enhanced. And so like conditioning, training, and organizing our inner life to do just that. And you,

I want to support every ounce of your business efforts to share that. So I really want to encourage people to either find you on social, stay connected to what you're doing and, or, you know, if you've got the resources, want to bring you in for the, from a company standpoint, you know,

mark Matthews.com for sure. So dude, I'm stoked to know you. Thank you. One T. There you go. How's that and mark with a k yeah yeah right and mark with a k there's no c in this one yeah that's an amazing mission to have well done and then and i can't wait to see the things that you come up with because with technology at the moment and i and i've i've seen a lot of the stuff that you're

doing with technology i think it's so I've seen a lot of the stuff that you're doing with technology, I think it's so unbelievably important what you're building because it will combat the negative side of technology that is just taking over our brain. So you need people like you that help promote the presence in life. So, yeah, good luck. Yeah, ditto. Hey, and you know what?

Let's figure out something on another call. We'll figure out how to do something together. Definitely. That would be awesome. Cool. Appreciate you, Mark. All right, Mike. Thanks so much.

Yeah, take care. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify.

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