Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - The Surprising Science Behind Building Deep Relationships | Eric Barker

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Eric Barker, a former Hollywood screen-writer turned author whose dedicated following of over half a million people look to Eric for his (often counter-intuitive) insights and research-backed advice on how to be great at life. In 2017, Eric penned his Wall Street Journal bestseller Barking Up the Wrong Tree, which reveals the extraordinary science behind what actually determines success and most importantly, how anyone can achieve it.However, over the last several years Eric pivoted to taking a deep dive into the science of relationships and recently published his newest bestseller, Plays Well with Others: The Surprising Science Behind Why Everything You Know About Relationships Is (Mostly) Wrong. And that’s why I was so excited to sit down with Eric – if you’ve been following this podcast, you know I’m a big believer that relationships are foundational to exploring potential and achieving our very best… no one does it alone… through relationships, we become. So, it was a joy to speak with Eric about all things relationships – what we’re getting wrong, the antidote to loneliness, how to cultivate deep friendships, love, communities, and so much more. I hope you leave this conversation with a new perspective on what a healthy relationship feels like, and… maybe even inspired to re-examine how you approach them._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. The bad news is, like I said, if you're, we're walking into the marriage casino, the odds are against you, you know, but the difference here is that now we do have far more freedom. Marriage is self-defined in a lot of ways. So if you do the work, if you really try, put the effort in or proactive, then you can have a happy marriage. And actually, better than that, Eli Finkel's research at Northwestern, the happiest marriages today are the happiest marriages that ever existed.

Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, and I'm really excited to welcome Eric Barker. And Eric is a former Hollywood screenwriter and then turned author, where he shares his, what I would say, often counterintuitive insights and research on how to live a great life. So Eric is the bestselling author of Barking Up the Wrong Tree. And earlier this year, he published his newest book called Play Well with Others, the surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong. Eric, thanks for being here. I'm really excited to have you on. Oh, it's great to be here, man. Thank you. Cool. So maybe we can start with a quote. And when I read this, two things happened.

One is I was like, oh, that's a great bit of writing. And it's also telling about you. So here's the quote. Getting me to write a relationship book is like asking Godzilla to improve the infrastructure in your city. Where'd that come from? Relationships were never my strong suit. And it was, I just found it very ironic for me to be writing a book about them. I mean, granted, like all my writing is focused on the science. So it's not like I'm giving my personal anecdotal advice. But still, with me as the filter and the conduit,

it was very interesting, because I don't, I never try and take that attitude of, you know, oh, I'm the expert and guru and you should do as I do. I kind of am along with the reader in the sense of, hey, I don't know what I'm doing. So maybe you and I can get some insight from people who are a lot smarter than both of us. I love that. Okay, so let's start with big rocks. What are some of the big rocks that people are getting wrong with relationships? I mean, there's a lot of things that surprised me. You know, one thing that's been kind of, we've been hearing a lot about of late is loneliness. And even before the pandemic,

loneliness was just exploding. And looking at the research, I found two insights that really blew me away. First of all, before the 19th century, loneliness basically didn't exist. That's an exaggeration, but not by much. Faye Alberti is a researcher at University of York, and she found that, you know, you look for the word lonely, and it meant things that were by themselves, but it didn't have the negative stigma. And the reason loneliness didn't exist was basically we were all enmeshed in nations, religions, tribes, groups, families. So there wasn't that perception of isolation. You know, historically, human beings couldn't make it on their own. So we didn't. The second thing that really blew me away was John Cacioppo,

who was the leading researcher on loneliness, found that lonely people don't spend any less time with others than non-lonely people do, which sounds ridiculous. But the truth is, we've all felt lonely in a crowd. You can be in Times Square, New Year's Eve, surrounded by people and feel lonely. And what Cacioppo realized was that loneliness isn't about proximity to others. It's about how you feel about your relationships. We can experience solitude, which is a good thing. That's when you feel like you have strong connections to other people, but right now you're by yourself. That's fine. But you can also be surrounded by people, not feel connected to them and feel terribly lonely. So we're trying to solve the loneliness conundrum. And a big part of it is we, we, we don't really understand. We haven't

really understood where loneliness comes from and we've kind of misdiagnosed it. Okay. You're, you are going to share insights like that that are going to trigger a bunch of stuff for me in the world of psychology, which I love, which is like in some respects, you're knocking on the door of depression, which is I can be in a crowded space, feel lonely. I can be in a relationship with other people that know me really well, but feel lonely. And that's part of the depressed experience from a clinical perspective. And so you found that information about the loneliness, and then you found this enmeshed fabric of relationships. I think you said before the 19th century, is that where your data was from? So when you pull those two things together and you say, okay, we're more lonely than we were then. And, um, we're more depressed, I think than we were then, but I don't know that data to be, you know, um, absolute, but I do know that we're more depressed now than we were three years ago. You know? So I would imagine that holds up, but I don't know. When you hear that data, because I love

in your writing, you're really counterintuitive of how you approach next steps. So you've got this counterintuitive insight and then you say, okay, well, if that's the case, what's next for us? And so where do you take that insight in your mind i mean i i don't think any one of us is is gonna have an easy time kind of like overhauling all of you know uh our big institutions uh and our communities so i generally start from the individual in terms of like what we can do and And it is surprising, you know, how, how simple, I won't say easy. I mean, simple as in non-complex it is to address some of these things. First is to deepen your friendships. You know, we don't, as I talk about the book, it's like, we don't, we don't get a lot of good advice on friendships. Friendship is kind of a, is kind of a you know the the neglected stepchild of relationships we kind of take it for granted

you you might pay for a therapist to improve your marriage or a therapist to help your children when friendships go south we we kind of just let them go you know and we can deepen our friendships by the two things i found in the research was time and vulnerability. You know, those are the costly signals that we can send to others that we value them. And those are the things that actually open up, deepen, you know, and really strengthen relationships because both of those are, they're scary. You know, it's like, it's, it's hard to dedicate more time to people and opening up, talking about the things that scare you, talking about who you really are underneath. It's scary, but that's how we create emotional

intimacy with people. The other tip I found that I thought was, again, really simple, but we don't do it, is just introducing our friends to one another. There was a 2020 study that showed if you have five friends and it's all one-off, that's fine, that's nice. But if you have five friends and they all know each other, it's synergistic. It's much more powerful because you're actually creating a community.

Now people can work together. They can throw you a birthday party. You're feeling sad, they can take you out. They can coordinate to help you find a new job. There's this synergy that's created when your friends know each other and everybody's talking. So at least on the individual level, it's like we can help this community issue and the depression issue and the loneliness issue by starting our own communities with the people we already know and love. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes,

and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach.

It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods.

And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot.

Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way,

is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. It's a really rich insight because that's something that

I've, I think, naturally been inclined to do. And sometimes friends of mine don't want to be friends of my friends. And so I've seen, I've felt that, which is, I don't know, kind of disappointing sometimes, but obviously, okay, no problem. Like I get that. Would you say that, so the term that I'm thinking in my head is self-efficacy. So it takes a certain type of power within yourself. And I don't mean power as like dominating, but power like I can make something happen in my life. It takes a certain kind of self-efficacy to say, hey, you know what? I'm going to pull friend eight, one, two, three, four, five together.

And like, I think this is going to be great. Would you say that that is a more meaningful approach? Because not everyone has kind of this internal power to pull something together or would you say and it could be an and or i guess it is better to be part of three groups of people that already know each other but you're a member inside of those groups but it's not like you have your own i don't know friend cohort both well i. I mean, we, you know, it's like, you know, research consistently shows it's like the more groups we're a part of, the better we do. You know, it's like, because much like with individual friends, you draw different things

from each relationship and you provide different things in different relationships. You know, there's times where you have a mentor and there's times where you are the mentor, we play different roles. So the more groups we join, you know, is that's fantastic. I think probably to your point, I would recommend that first. I think, but I think a lot of people struggle there because it's like, where do I find the group? How do I join the group? Would I be rejected? So emotionally, I think it's very easier to much easier to start with the friends you already have. Like this is so simple. Let me take these friends and let me try and draw them together. Maybe everybody doesn't click, but some of them will, you know, if people can join groups that are already in existence, that's fantastic because that's going to expand the

network and you're going to get more friends from that. It's also valuable to create because then you're the hub as opposed to the node in the network. I'd love to calibrate on how you think about friendships because I feel like I've got, like if you think about Dunbar's 150, we had Robin Dunbar on, which was fun. Great. Yeah. It was a really good conversation. But so if you think about like almost a pebble in the pond and there's ripples or some sort of concentric rings to the friendship set of relationships on that inner circle, it's like, these are the X number of friends that like I

cry with, you know, and I, and I, and I give them real shit, you know, because I really trust them, you know, and I like, I can push in that and they push me and there's a support and a love and a challenge. At least that's how my friendships are. They're fun that way. Um, and then there's like the next level, which maybe I don't like, I might not cry with them and maybe I don't kind of really challenge them, but it's really fun to be around them, you know, and it's always a good time. And then, you know, it keeps kind of moving out. How many are in that inner circle for you? For me personally, yeah, probably

less than five. There's, there's probably like probably two or three that I can pretty much tell anything to and rely on. I think what, what decade are you in? I'm, I'm 49. So I'm going to be moving into a new decade soon. We're coming. Yeah. So, but that matters. Like what stage, like I look at my, my son, he's 14 and he's got like tons of groups and friends and it's like, but it's different, right? Out of the 14 year old, it's just different. So you've got five and are you in a long-term like intimate relationship? So would you put, if you were, if you had a long-term partner, would you put that person in the five or would it be five?

And then you've got your kind of family relationship, marriage and, or whatever. I think that would be included in the fund. I mean, I actually, Dunbar, I think Dunbar found in the research that when you have an intimate partner, you know, in a romantic relationship, you typically lose two friends because of that. That's exactly what he said. Yeah. Because of that slot issue.

And I think the other challenge, and the other challenge that we don't think about maybe we don't want to think about it is how often those the people in those slots rotate you know uh I think it was I think it was Dunbar who found that you know after seven years half of close friends aren't close anymore you know there's there's a lot of rotation not that we're always losing but just that things move. So, so to your point where you talk about, like, there's the second tier who you might not cry with. It's like, it's, it's still valuable to be engaged and to be trying to push and stretch a little bit there because, you know, those people might, might move up to the next tier when somebody else moves out,

something might happen, something deliberate or not deliberate, because we think of these things as set in stone. And yet we realize it's like when you went from high school to college, like with your son, it's like teenagers have far more close friends and the number tends to decline with age. So we need to be thinking about that where it's like, yes, there are people you want to maintain, but those, some of them are going to shift. How do you define a good friend, where it's like having a, you know, a really wide network that's only an inch deep. me good is deep intimate and and i would say the barometer there is how much can you share like how how much how many embarrassing things can you say and this person still accepts you and and frankly more than accepts you the more the the scarier things you're willing to admit to and they move

closer that's that's something that you're struggling with. Let me help you not let me banish you to the edge of the empire. Yeah. And then, okay. I love that. And then if I was, if I was to ask you in an intimate way, like of your five, let's just do kind of a, I don't know, one to 10, 10 being like, this is the, my relationship amongst these five is really deep. And of course it's going to vary. Are you at that place in your life? Because I have a follow-on question related to it, but are you at like in the eight, nine and 10 with your friends? I mean, I think I'm comfortably at, you know, eight, maybe nine with them. But this is something I struggled with.

And this is something I, you know, I use for the basis of a lot of humor, truthful humor in the book is the fact that, you know, hasn't always been my strength, time or vulnerability have not been. So for me, I've had to sort of push myself because that, that, you know, writing books is this isolated activity, writing blog posts, writing in my past writing screenplays is this isolated activity. There's not a synergy. It's often a mutually exclusive activity in many ways, which requires a level of planning and conscientiousness that at times feels beyond me, but I've had to make an effort there and the vulnerability issue where, you know, well, sometimes I'm not so open about it.

And sometimes I'm not always open about it with myself, you know, and that's, I think the tricky thing, which, which can, we can have be, we can be unaware of if we're not here. So let's say I've got, this is the follow-on to the question, which is like, it's about what you've learned. And let's say I've got five friends or somebody listening is like, okay, well, how? How do I take it further?

What are some ways that you've learned to deepen the relationship with my first five? I mean, again, it comes right down to time and vulnerability where that first issue of, you know, of making the time, you know, and that can feel intimidating if you're busy, but we can work with things other than writing. You know, we can work people into the routines of our life and we can become a part of the routines in their life. You can exercise together. You can go shopping together. You can do things where it's not, oh, I don't have another hour. It's an hour that you can repurpose if you're extremely busy, but making that time.

And then the vulnerability issue, I, in the book, I call it the scary rule. You know, it's scary, say it now you don't have to go confessing any murders immediately but it's like to incrementally push that this comes from some phenomenal work by Arthur Aaron where you know he was able to make strangers feel like lifelong friends you know in under an hour just by having them progressively answer deeper and more intimate questions so that people could get to know and not on the surface but more serious things they could get to know each other the the two research assistants that he did this work with ended up getting married you know it's like that it's that that that's good yeah and and we're often a lot a lot quicker to share facts and feelings and it's the feeling that matter. I don't know this researcher. Can you spell his or her name?

Arthur Aaron, A-R-O-N, Stony Brook University. It's really powerful. There's a, he basically has a list of questions. It's available on the internet and you can do it like a fun exercise. You can actually go through them. I've done this uh with with friends and it's it's really cool because not only do you build you know the relationship with themselves but it's really interesting when you see the question and your visceral your visceral reaction of some will be oh yeah i'll answer it and then with other questions you'll see yourself being like oh i don't know if i want to i don't know know if I, and you're like, oh, okay, there's, there's the threshold. There's, there's the scary rule. Like, no, I need to,

I need to push myself and, and be a little bit more open. And it's, it's really helpful. It's really simple. And truth is it's, it's, it's pretty fun. I love this dude. That's really good. That's a good resource. And then, you know, I just for, as a, I don't know, kind of placeholder about 30% of the U S population in some capacity has reduced empathy. You know, they kind of over rotate on risk-taking. Um, they exaggerate them, them, their own value, you know, like these are not like. These are not great characteristics for friendships. I think the number is up to 3.5% as an estimate, people have antisocial personality disorder. 2% of the population has narcissism.

So let's just throw a hand grenade and say 30% of the population, 3 out of 10, you're going to have a really hard time knowing them because one, they, they, they really don't have an understanding of themselves in a meaningful way. So that, I think that that context is important. Like choose your friends that you can go deep with. And for me, it's like, it was an honest, it's an honest assessment. Like are my friends, which are my friends of convenience and which are my friends that I know have my back.

And I, I love having their back and that that's kind of how I separate the two rungs a bit. And so I, I love this. Now let's come right back to like, what do, what else do we have wrong about relationships? I think, I think right there in terms of what you're saying, in terms of that opening up vulnerability, like you said, relationships, convenience, relationships where you're close. Daniel Grushka has done a lot of research in terms of this and that opening up that vulnerability. What's great about it is it's not merely like, oh, I'm getting closer.

But to your point, to where this relationship is going to fall, it's also a litmus test. Because if you share and the other person doesn't want to, it's kind of like that lack of reciprocity is a signal. It can improve in the future. But it can also tell you, you know what, this relationship is only going to go this far. And on the flip side, like you were saying, 30% this relationship is only going to go this far. And on the flip side, like you were saying, 30%, roughly people are going to have trouble. You know, I mean, there's some great research on what are called ambivalent relationships. And those are the ones,

surprisingly, that cause us the most stress. If somebody is your out and out enemy, you stay away from them, or you know what to expect. If somebody is your out and out enemy, you stay away from them or you know what to expect. If someone's a close friend, you love them and you know what to expect. The relationships that drive our blood pressure up the highest are these ambivalent ones where it's hot and cold. We don't know. They're nice. They're mean. That's what really drives us crazy and causes us the most stress. And the research shows that these make up 50% of our relationships, and we don't see them any less than the people we actually do care about. So we can, with some of these, we need to deprioritize them.

And with others, there's some people who we probably should try to avoid, you know, that is a net win to not be near them because frankly, the, the, the cost benefit analysis in terms of our feelings, our trust, you know, is, is not good, not worth it. Let me add a layer here is that, so coming from pro sport oftentimes, not always, but most of the time, the head coach eats by themselves. The assistant coaches eat together. And as some sort of emblem for friendship, like I really, I really enjoy the people that I get to work with on the Fighting Mastery team.

You know, like they're awesome. However, I don't hang with them. So I don't, some hang with each other, you know? And so how do you think about friendships in business? Did you come across anything before we move into like relationships, intimate relationships? Let's stay here one more layer. Cause most people spend, most people spend most of their time at work. You're, you are touching on one of the more interesting and like more difficult challenges, which is that, you know,

for peers, you know, it, everything we talked about is pretty straightforward. Where it gets difficult is in leadership scenarios, because there is that issue of, you know, somebody's in charge, somebody's making decisions that could impact me, I need to trust this person, I need to respect this person. And if they're being vulnerable about things that could negatively impact their ability to lead, then should I trust them? And it's different. It's harder once you get into that work scenario. And when I talk about ambivalent relationships and I say to people, oh, 50% of your relationships are ambivalent, oh, no. And then you remind them, you don't have difficult people you have to deal with at work, neighbors, in-laws. And then they go, oh, yes, yes, yes.

It's like because you can't get out of those relationships, you can't avoid those people. But sometimes it's not always that great. For leadership, it's really tricky. do is still open up about, you know, make, be vulnerable, but it doesn't have to be in things that are directly related to the goals at hand. You know, if a leader, if a leader is to acknowledge, oh, geez, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. You know, that could be a really dangerous thing to say in a goal-oriented context, but for a leader to say, hey, you know, I've struggled with, you know, my relationship with my kid, that doesn't threaten their authority, you know, in terms of that, or hey, I've had difficulty in a lot of arenas that are not, don't directly

impact the goals of the organization, that is still something that's vulnerable, they're opening up to you, they're being honest, they're talking about their feelings vulnerable. They're opening up to you. They're being honest. They're talking about their feelings, but it's not going to make you think less of them as a leader or a senior official. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters.

And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting.

Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spent a lot

of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix

Gray's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding And then one more kind of thread here is, And use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And then one more kind of thread here is your relationship with your, I don't know if you have children or not, but your relationship with your children. I hear some people say, I'm like my child's best friend. Or I hear adults say, my dad is my best friend. What did you come across there in your thinking about friendships?

It's, again, that is similar in the leadership context. It is. Because there are absolutely times when you're going to have to pull the authoritarian switch and say, no, that's not safe. That's not good for you. You're not doing that. And there's a lot of times, frankly, most of the time, when, you know, children benefit from being treated, you know, almost as an equal, as a peer, conveying to them, hey, this is why this is difficult. This is why we need to do this,

where that level of respect versus condescension is really powerful, you know, and empowering. And most importantly, and I think a lot of people in the field forget this, it teaches them for the future. It teaches them to, you know, to be respectful of others, open, honest with others, to communicate, as opposed to if you always take the authoritarian stance, you are kind of in many ways subtly teaching them, Oh, great, get power. And then I can tell people what to do and they can't resist. Right. And that's really a bad role model to be setting. Yeah. So like, I think this thing with like, with our children,

I don't want to be my son's best friend. You know, I want I want to honor the role that I have with him. And when he gets if we're both lucky to live, you know, another 30 years together, like I want to be great friends with them, you know, so I don't I don't know. So there's something that happens over time that's interesting, too. So and that's one of your variables, right? Time and what was the second piece? Vulnerability. Vulnerability. Yeah. Okay. So let's push into relationships really, marriages really quickly, but I want to set it up with another great quote of yours. You're not going to like everything you read.

I just want to warn you now, the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. Okay. So piss us off, Eric. What do we got? What do we need to understand better that you're like, listen, if you would just square up with this, your life would be a lot better. You're blowing it here, here, and here, here's a couple of things about marriages that I think you really should pay attention to. Yeah. Marriage does make you happy. Good marriages make you happy. Marriage does not make you healthy. A good marriage makes you healthy. When you look at all the stats, you know, 40% divorce rate, roughly 7% of couples separate, but don't get divorced.

And then you have couples who stay in a marriage, but are unhappy. Those are less than, that's less than 50%. Less than 50% of people have happy marriages. Nobody likes to hear that, you know, and the truth is that marriage used to be a lot more stable historically. We also used to have arranged marriages and we had stifling levels of, you know, community and peer pressure. Now we have more freedom. The bad news is, like I said, if you're walking into the marriage casino, the odds are against you. But the difference here is that now we do have far more freedom. Marriage is self-defined in a lot of ways. So if you do the work, if you

really try, put the effort in or are proactive, then you can have a happy marriage. And actually, better than that, Eli Finkel's research at Northwestern, the happiest marriages today are the happiest marriages that ever existed. Marriage has gone from this kind of stable, safe, pretty good bet to a bad bet with bad odds, but winner take all. If you do the work, you can have a happier marriage than has ever existed, you know, historically. But if you're not going to do the work, the odds aren't with you.

God, that's cool. I, it's going to sound like a love slob here, but I feel like, I feel like I got that last bit there and it was not Eric. Like we went through, we've gone through some serious work, like real work where we sat in a therapist chair together, you know, every week for years to say, okay, how do I get this right? How do I get that right? Are you going to do the work? Yeah. Are you going to do the work? Yeah. And like, keep going and just kind of chipping away. It feels like knocking off the calcium from my first relationship with my parents to my first relationship with

whatever to now let's get down to the actual kind of the two nails coming together and all the calcium is like knocked off. I don't know. It's incredibly freeing, but I love the framing that you just did. Now is the time. Now is a great time to be in a relationship with somebody that could be the best relationship ever that you have? We, we have before marriage was very scripted and very defined, you know, and that meant that you had a lot of, you know, square pegs around holes, like it was uncomfortable, but there was so much social pressure that it kept marriages together and stable, even if they weren't happy. Now you have a lot of options, so many possibilities. Divorce is far easier, but you also have that freedom to define

for yourself, with your partner, what does marriage mean? And with that, there's nobody telling you what to do. It's a do-it-yourself kit. There's no instruction manual, but if you create your own instruction manual, you can create this perfect, customized, tailored, wonderful, fulfilling marriage where you honor both of your ideas about what a good relationship is. But if you're not doing that work, unlike the past, society is not going to structure it for you. God, you know what I'd love to do? I'd love to call my wife right now. I'd love to say what makes a good relationship, you know, but I think, I think, I think, I think that she has to, she has to answer that question. I have to answer that question. And listen, we've been married like 30 some years. And like I said, she is, she has flat out my best

friend and, and I get to have intimate, you know, romantic love with her as well, which is like, that's perfect. And then, so, but I don't think that we've been that explicit. She says, what's a great marriage. And I say, what's a great marriage. And then we have a conversation about it, which I actually can't wait to carry that forward. Well, to your point, no, you're, you're hitting on something like super powerful here i mean john gottman is the leading researcher on on marriages like one thing he talks about is he calls it love maps and it's basically getting to know your partner which on the surface seems like oh yeah i know things about no no no what he means with getting to know your partner is exactly what you're talking about not knowing how they like their coffee or what kind of movies they like asking the hard questions what you're talking about. Not knowing how they like their coffee or what kind of movies

they like. Asking the hard questions, like you're saying, what is a good relationship to you? What is happiness to you? What is a good husband to you? There are not quick, easy answers to those questions. And we don't usually ask them. And there's no way to know your partner's idiosyncratic feelings about that unless you ask. They're hard questions. Most people never do. But doing that is like getting the answers to the test. Doing that, and then asking yourself, telling your partner. Because this clears up so much to understand that the things that you maybe don't like that much about them if you know why oh you know in the book i talk about you know oh my partner always leaves the always leaves the light on in the bathroom you know it's like yeah it's because of a childhood fear of the dark it's like oh okay that's that's

oh god that's so oh god i got you yeah i got you that. As opposed to you're a lazy idiot. It's like, oh, no, no, no. But we won't know that reasoning unless we ask. We won't know that that thing that's not that important to you, that that is super important to them and vice versa. So exactly what you're saying, asking those hard questions is key and we usually don't do it. And so that is where curiosity is such an inoculation for just about every human stressor. You know, it puts us back in a beginner's mind and, and we don't, um, oh my God, I text my wife. She just called. I text her to see if she, if I could ask her a question.

Are you, are you game? You want to do this? Go ahead. We're making this interactive now. Oh my God. All right. Let's see what happens here. I'm going to put her on speaker. Lisa. Yes, Ed. Okay. Okay. So I've got an expert on relationships, Eric Barker's on. And can you answer this question? Like what makes a great marriage? What would you say if I put you totally on the spot here, what would you say makes, what makes a great marriage? I think what makes a great marriage is

having respect for the other person, allowing them to be everything that they want to be completely be in love with who they are as a person even though they are flawed a lot of the time and i think being married to honestly like your best friend. Hot damn. Hot damn. Yeah. Okay. Now I got to do the work too.

Huh, Eric? So I got, I got it. Did you hear that, Eric? Could you hear it? Yes, I did. Yeah. So then I've got to do that work too, which is like, you know, what, for me, what makes a great, and then Lisa tonight, let's calibrate these. What makes a great marriage is, um, okay.

One, really see the person. Okay. So really see the essence of the person. And that takes a lot of resource and commitment and care to do that. Two, for marriage, there's a tenderness in that intimacy of who they are and who we're working on becoming. So there's a tenderness in that struggle. And then I think the third pit, if we go threes here, for great relationship is like flat out loving honesty. So we can have the hard conversations and be in them and stay in them when it's hard,

as opposed to like quick to trigger, welcome to my inner life. You know, like being like radically paced, you know, and, and not watering in, in that tender kind of piece. And so to me that there's something, and maybe there's more, but awesome, Lisa. Okay. I would say total 100% commitment. Yeah, there you go. It's so right. It's easy. Eric, how about this? so right it's easy eric how about this lisa it's easy to get divorced how about that sometimes it's a better it's a better it's a better outcome to be divorced for me this is just me talking yeah all right love you thank you love you bye okay bye

okay that was awesome yeah brother thank you for creating that little moment for us. That was really awesome. I mean, it was really interesting to see how, you know, the Venn diagram, what you both said overlapped, but also, you know, you had different perspectives as well. I mean, to, to hear her, the first thing she said was respect so you could imagine in other marriages somebody might be saying oh i just need to show them more love i need to show them more love and maybe they're not showing as much respect and they're working harder and harder but they're moving east instead of west you know it's like you unless you spoke to your partner and realize, Oh, like respect is number one. I thought just being nice was number one. Like I need to, I now I have the answers to the test. Like I need to do that more for her to

feel what I'm feeling. It totally. Right. And then as she was going through the list, um, just for fun, what was happening for me, I was like, Oh my God, I totally feel respected by her. Like respect regard. Like there's some, like, I totally, well I, like when I say something, I feel like she's like, yeah, okay. Let me, let me, that's important. Let me metabolize it and understand it. And like, so now what you're saying is like the answers to the test are now I've, my job is to go, right. A great relationship begins with high respect, let's say for her. So then part of my job is to go, right. A great relationship begins with high respect, let's say for her. So then part of my job is like, really respect her, like come from that place. Is that how you're framing this? Oh, I mean, to hear that, it's like, that was the first thing she said. And it's like,

you know, wow. Okay. Like, am I doing enough of that? And, and again, it's like, this isn't a one-shot deal. Like you said, you guys have done the work. You talk more. You can ask her, okay, what actions, what behaviors convey respect to you? Because again, your definition of what respect is might be different from hers. How do you send that signal the way that she's going to receive it? The other thing she said that was really, you know, telling to me in terms of the research was people often trying to change their partner. And usually it's a bad thing, but there is research on how to, how to, how to change your partner in a good way. And what that is, is not asking what you want your partner to be, but asking your partner what their ideal self is, and then trying to help them move in that

direction. And the first thing your wife said was, you know, fully accepting them, understanding them, like really supporting them. And what you said was the idea of, you know, it's like truly knowing them, like truly accepting, like you're both on the right page in terms of like helping the other person get to their platonic form, which is far better than the always subtly selfish. How do I make them the person I want to be? It's like that's a very healthy attitude. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty

on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple.

And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order.

That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Yeah, dude, my heart was thumping a little bit because I don't think I've ever asked her that question explicitly, you know? And, and what, and she's really gracious as you, you, you heard, but what if she came on and said something like, I don't know,

like what we're not doing. Like, I don't know. It's just like, you know, it took you long enough to ask. Jesus. She only took a few decades.

I wonder when you'll get around to actually doing it. She's full Latin. And she is my truth teller. Like she calls bullshit on just about everything that feels like it's right on the fringe of being like made up, you know? So that's so helpful though. You're getting honest answers. Oh God bless it. A dose of them. All right. So, so which, well, I think we all need somebody that is a truth teller, you know, and to do it in a way that that's that tenderness that she gives me, you know, in like, I, I see the woman, I see the man that you're going to be coming. And then that balance between telling the truth and then also knowing that there's a reason behind the telling the truth.

All right. Skip, skip, skip forward here a little bit. What is the work? So when you say like, you've got to do the work in your mind, like this was, this was part of it for sure. And then keep going. Like, what are some other things that we can do to build relationships? I mean, the, what we just talked about, what you just did live, uh, you know, is powerful. I mean, love match, you know, really understanding, you know, the, the other thing that is really critical in terms of usually one of the other sad facts, you know, is that two years after people are married, their happiness level is pretty much where it was before they got married. You know, it's, there's usually a dying down and entropy, you know,

and it doesn't have to be that way. The thing is people often feel like, oh, you know, well, we did when we first fell in love, we were in love. And that's why we did all these exciting, fun things together. Actually that goes in both directions. When you do fun things together, that is what makes you fall in love. And most couples fall into a routine, hey, Netflix and pizza, you know, and the truth is that you can sustain those early love feelings by doing exciting, fun stuff together, by not falling into habits. because of the psychological principle of emotional contagion. We associate the feelings we have, we associate with those around us. And they did a study where they had couples go on exciting dates versus couples who went on pleasant dates. Exciting one, you know, by doing fun stuff, going dancing, you know, going horseback riding, roller coasters, doing fun stuff, you associate those strong feelings with your partner. And that's how we can keep those early love feelings sustaining. That's key. The other key thing

is avoiding the negatives. You know, it's just sometimes the positives are actually more powerful, like the love maps, and keeping things exciting, are actually more powerful. But Gottman talks about four things that are, the four horsemen he calls them, that are strongly correlated with divorce. And those are criticism, criticism, stonewalling, defensiveness, and contempt. Those are things that happen during conversations

that are not good. Criticism, complaining is good. Complaining is raising issues. Criticism is when you make them personal. You know, you didn't take the trash out, it's fine. You didn't take the trash out because you're an idiot, that's bad. Defensiveness is your partner raises an issue, and then you raise another issue, and it just escalates.

Stonewalling is your partner raises an issue, and you shut down. And contempt is when you see your partner as on a lower plane than you. Contempt is the worst, but if you can avoid those four in conversations, it's, you're going to avoid so many difficulties. I love that you've, you know, you're referencing Gottman's work for two reasons. One, he's been materially important for my work as well. And it's great to see him have some some shine here and that uh the second is he's coming on soon oh so i'd love yeah i'd love for you to do you have a question you'd like to ask him and i'll you know say eric had something to say you know i had a question for you but is there a question you have for both of them julie and um john are coming on. That's, that's a great, I'll have to follow up with you. I want to think about

that one. His research is so powerful. The tip when people usually ask me for, you know, what's a quick marriage tip? I always go Gottman and I always talk about the research he did where, you know, with listening to the first three minutes of an argument, he could determine the ending 96% of the time. It's outrageous. It is outrageous. If it starts ugly, it's going to end ugly. All you got to do is tone it down a little bit at the beginning. And it's a cheat code.

It's a cheat code. Well, he's listening for those four things. Yeah. If somebody is critical, you know, and, and then if the partner is immediately defensive, it's like, okay, you moved into one bucket. And if then all of a sudden they're like, nope, I'm not talking about this anymore. Stonewalling, you move into the third bucket. And then if you get, I fucking hate you. This is what I hate about you. Why did I ever marry? You know, if you get into contempt, then it's like, all right, I know the bet. And I think what's the number I'm blanking. Is it within two years,

97% divorce rate within two years, if you have all four of those, is that the number? I mean, was it, I think, I mean, it might be, I know that, I know that there's a time limiter to it. Yeah. Like 86, 86% of the time they're correlated with divorce. The only exception is, which is important for us to mention, is repair. Is that almost all couples have one of those horsemen riding around. But if you take the time to repair, you tell a joke, you hold their hand in the middle of an argument, you can undo a little bit of the bad. That's right. We used to think that couples that argued a lot, sure, miserable,

and they're sure going to get divorced at some point. But actually, if we could see how they repaired, you need that bit of the information to say, oh, I get it now. They argue like cats and dogs, whatever that phrase means. And then, but they repair like cats and dogs in an amazing way. So one of the things that like, this has helped me a lot. Maybe you can use this somewhere, Eric is, um, so let's say I get triggered. Let's say my wife doesn't know she's being critical about something. And then, but I get triggered, let's say she's not even critical. And then, but I get triggered in some kind of way and I'm defensive. Right. And then I've told her, in some kind of way and I'm defensive. Right.

And then I've told her, I don't want to be that person. I do not want to be defensive. And then she gives me a look. And that look is like, remember the movie, like earmuffs, like it's like some sort of code, like, you know, like, yeah, right. And so she gives me a look and it's a playful look. And then, so she's kind of sitting above the whole thing, watching me, you know, constrict and, and then she says, and then I, it's, it's almost a go-to line for me. It was like, Oh, I don't want to be this person. She's like, okay, you know, right. All

right. You know? So like, if I can go, Ooh, damn, I do not want to. And then it's just a way through it. Like, and then if I can sit above it with her and not be just so sucked into the dynamic of it, um, when she's got something she's working on, it feels like that creating space for each other, I think is material. I mean, what you're describing is mindfulness. Yeah. You're not, you're not caught in the emotion and just a freight train. You're stepping back, watching yourself and going, wait, that's not who I want to be. You're observing yourself. We're usually just tunnel vision, especially when emotions take over. But that ability to step back and go, wait a second, like I'm not playing by the rules

here. You know, I don't like this. I'm so sucked in. I can know, I don't like this. I'm so sucked in. I can't, I don't get it. Like, I don't get what's happening and I'm just defending me, you know? And then I love this. This is part of a mindfulness practices. Anytime I get mad, I say, wait, what am I defending?

Am I defending myself, my ego, my identity? What am I defending here? And listen, I've got no problem being pissed off if I'm defending a loved one. You know, like someone comes in my house that's not welcome and they've got duct tape. I got no problem being pissed. You know, right. So you're going out first. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. So. So. OK, so. OK, I love this. Now let's go back to one of your main points is that you talk about creating love, reigniting love and sustaining love. Okay. So do we need all three? And I think the answer is yes. And how would you, how would you

rotate or hydrate the, the sustaining reigniting love? If somebody is kind of feeling stale, would you just say, listen, ask them what's fun, create, create some spontaneity fun in the relationship. Is it that simple? I mean, the great thing about the, the reigniting love, like doing exciting stuff together is you can, it's perfectly fine to schedule it. You know, spontaneity is great, but it's like, you can say, Hey, we need one thing. We need one really exciting fun thing on the calendar. At least once a month, you can plan that. You take a trip,

you do something for the day, you know, that can almost run on autopilot. If you do some planning, you know, asking the deep questions, it's like that's something that you want to take some time with, but you want to, you want to boost your shot every now and then to just make sure we're still on the same page. I mean, I think overall, you know, what's really critical and the other thing that Gottman talks about, it's like that, that, that stat we've heard about him so much that, you know, just by listening to a couple for five minutes, you know, with 90 plus percent accuracy, he can predict divorce in five years. You know, that all comes

down to him asking couples to tell the story of their relationship. And that's a great barometer for him. It's a great barometer for us, you know, is just to say, it's like, are they looking at this as that great kind of, hey, we dealt with challenges, but we got through them and we're stronger, you know, or is it this more, yeah, you know, stuff's fine. It's like, that's a great barometer to start asking yourself, do I need to get to know my partner better and ask those hard questions? Do we need more excitement? Is it the arguments and we need to have fewer of the four horsemen? You know, it's like that barometer can give us an idea of which one of those are we lacking and to just have a time on a semi-consistent basis to try and address those and say, where

are we lacking and what? I mean, it's comparable to, you know, with when you talk about athletes, you know, it's like, what part of my game do I need to improve? That's really good. Here, here's how this is. I think I want to get into lying for a minute and trust. And this is where I think some of this goes wrong is like, let's say, let's say one person is like, Oh, okay. I'm, I'm, I'm getting kind of the playbook here. They go home to their partner and they're like, okay, in what ways can we create, reignite, sustain love?

And then, and you say, let's talk about reigniting. Let's talk about doing something exciting and fun together. And then the partner goes, I've been saying that for years. You're just now getting this? Okay. So, so then how would you coach somebody in that moment? Right? So you came in with kind of wide eyes, big heart. I really want to invest and hydrate this relationship. And then somehow that, you know, the hurt other person is like, I've been saying this, like now what you listen

to a flipping podcast, you know, Eric, Eric said it and now, so like, how would you, how would you coach that person in that moment? I mean, right there is that issue of communication where obviously it's like a cliche that you need to communicate, but we, we really, really do. And the ugly conversations need to happen. The thing is people think, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to have that conversation because it might turn into a fight. But the truth is, shouting and yelling only end marriages 40% of the time. The majority of the time that marriages end, it's because you only shout and yell when you care. When you stop caring, you don't shout and yell anymore. Most marriages end because people write the other person off and start

living parallel lives. So if that person says, hey, I've been telling you this for how long, you know, either you haven't been listening, you know, or maybe they think they've been saying it, but they've been saying it indirectly. This is a communication issue where it's just like, are we, are we being clear? And are we paying attention and really saying like those things and hearing them? And again, that's where the love match issue comes in where it's like, okay, hey, maybe I haven't been listening. I apologize for that. Like right now, we should do that exciting thing.

And what else? What else have I been neglecting? I apologize. Apologies are great. They're powerful because nobody ever does them. So it's like, you got to mean it though. You can't, you can't just say it. You got to really like, okay, my bad. It's okay. It's not a word. It's not a sentence. It's that's right. It's a paragraph. Yeah. And backed up with action. Yeah. Yeah. And then backed up with action. And then to start communicating that, great, I haven't been listening.

I apologize. Like, what else haven't I been doing? That level of curiosity is so powerful. Like you were saying about curiosity. When somebody says, what else can I do? Especially before the fight. During the fight, you get less credit. But like before the fight, hey, what am I doing?

How am I screwing up? What can I do better? That's a sign of like in the fight, Hey, what am I doing? How am I screwing up? What can I do better? That's a sign of like in the workplace, that's a great employee. When an employee comes to the boss and says, how can I be better? What else can I do to make your life easier? It's fantastic in relationships too. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device

that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery, it's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12 month money back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product.

And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best.

Physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Leesa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their Chill Collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from.

So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just

too important to leave to chance. Dude, I'm so stoked to have this conversation with you because one, I've got like fun little butterflies in my stomach thinking about an already really wonderful relationship with my wife. Like I know she's got my back. I got her back. We get to, you know, have all the wonderful kind of benefits of a partner that knows each other in and out. And so I got these butterflies, like, this is great. I feel like I'm getting like a total booster shot from you about, Hey, go do a couple of these things, model a couple of these things. And then I've got this other, so I'm hoping, how about if the entire finding mastery community took, took this with either their friend, their deepest friend, or one of the friend groups or home to their intimate loved one. And it's like, just did this exercise. We'd be better for

it. Wouldn't we? We'd all be better for it. All right. So then, and then I got this other thing, which is, I hear you saying, go do activities. And then I think, oh, hold on. It's kind of a bandaid. And I go, no, no, no, no, no. I just need, you need time under belt doing fun things. It's not just a activity. It's not like date night solves anything. Yeah. So like, can you, can you open that up a little bit? Oh, absolutely. I think it's a good point where it's like, people want, you know, a quick fix, like a one-shot pill. It's like, no, if you routinely do this, then you become that person. You want to be the kind of couple that does fun things together. The goal is not, oh, we'll go horseback riding one time. And then, oh, okay, good. I don't have to do that crap anymore. You know, that's not the goal. The goal is she's happy now. He's happy now. Yeah. It's like the goal here is like, no, we're the kind of people

who do fun things together. We're the kind of people who think about what's exciting. What's entertaining. We're the kind of people who, who do things to make our relationship better, who, I mean, like everybody else talks about gratitude journals. I've talked a lot about gratitude journals. You know, we're just reflecting on the good things that have happened and appreciating them. But the strength of gratitude journals, isn't actually you writing three things down. The strength of gratitude journals is your brain is now looking around all day long going is that hey that was a good thing i can write that down for later hey that's a good and you start noticing the good that's already there and when you do at first yeah can feel like a band-aid

we're doing our exciting thing weekly or monthly but once you become the kind of person who says, Hey, what fun things can my wife and I do together? Hey, that looks like, what was that thing you mentioned? That'd be great. Now you become that person. And that's not a quick fix. That's just a relationship, positive overhaul. Okay. So I've got this, I think a counterintuitive insight that I want to run by you, which is there's a lot of, there's a lot of talk and writing about passion, like living with passion. Okay. And do the thing that you're passionate about and whatever, whatever your life is all that better for it. And I, I, I hear that and I've read that original research and I go, wait, hold on. I don't resonate at all with that. I don't, I,

I want to live passionately with the mundane even. Yeah. So I don't need to do the thing to find my passion. I need to understand how to live with passion and to do anything. And so when you say fun things and exciting things, what do you think about step one is agreeing to do fun things together. And step two is have fun doing anything like grocery shopping or walking the dog or watching a movie or whatever, that there's some funness to just about everything you do. What do you think about that? I think you've, I think you've already shifted into the second gear, which is great, which is you, you have made it a part of your identity. You're saying, I want to do these things and I can find to do it. And then it shifts to an identity level where I'm the kind of person who takes care of myself. I'm the kind of person who pushes myself. And now,

now you're on vacation and you're going, Hey, wow, those big Hills over there. I could run them tomorrow morning. Like now you're the kind of person who seeks that and finds that, but it's like, you need to bootstrap that perspective. You have that perspective of how can I turn every aspect of my life into something that's engaging and entertaining? I think other people need to start to build that to where all of a sudden they realize like so much of this is not really about a single activity. It's all about my perspective. Dope. Now, I've got somebody that is recently out of a long committed relationship. What do you say to folks in that transition phase? I say it is hard.

It is hard. And the thing there is that I talked about this in the friendship section of the book is that, but this is true for romantic relationships or any family, any close relationship, is that Aristotle defined a friend as another self, which sounds really poetic, and it actually turned out to be true, is the closer we get to someone, the more in our heads, our identity and their identity overlap. When you ask people, you know, about their close friends, who has this trait? Do you or them? It actually takes people longer to answer the question for their close friends because they have to disentangle themselves from the people they're close to when relationships end people are more likely to say i don't know who i am anymore because you have lost a part of yourself and there's a transition and that's tough where we have to where we move out of the venn diagram it's a difficult time and you know that's where a lot of people talk about like getting to know yourself again getting to understand yourself again and James Pennebaker's work in terms of writing writing it cause and effect your feelings

writing it down helps us to process, helps us to move on, to retell the new story of who we are now that that person's not in our life anymore. So there's a way, again, to bootstrap that process of moving on and finding yourself again after the end of the relationship. Now, trust is a big part of forming new relationships or deepening relationships. And Francis Fry and Anne Morris, they've got this really nice three pillars of trust. And they say to build trust, you need to have some logic behind your words and actions. You need to have empathy for the other person and you need to bring an authentic self to the relationship. And if one of those three falls down, then trust

is compromised. If you could just maybe take that a little bit, but then really drive us towards lying, picking up lying, because I think that that's one of the reasons maybe we don't trust people is because we don't know when they're lying. And all of a sudden it's like we've been burned or we're afraid they're going to lie. So we're always kind of defensive or looking for what could be the lie. Can, can you talk about how to detect lying better? Cause I love this part of your work. Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, your point about trust, um, there's been longitudinal studies and people who trust more do better. I think out of a, out of a one to 10 with one being the lowest levels of trust and 10 being the

highest levels of trust. I think the people who did the best in life scored like seven or an eight because the opportunities we miss by not trusting generally end up being a lot bigger than, you know, oh, great, I dodged that lying scammer. It's like, yeah, but you also missed so many opportunities. It was, I think it was the financial equivalent of not going to college by being on the low on the trust spectrum. So in general, we benefit from more trust.

It's a good default. But in terms of lying, this is another kind of counterintuitive thing. We get a lot of bad advice. We hear that it's about, you know, emotions. Are they sweating? Are they twitching? You know, none of those things. Body language, this was work by Alder Brij, body language has never been associated with effective lie detection. What is associated with effective lie detection is what's called cognitive load. Basically, lying takes a fair amount of brain power. You know, is that you need to think about the truth.

You need to think about the lie. You need to update it in real time. You need to monitor the other person, make sure they're not catching on. Like it takes brain power. So if you're trying to detect lies, what you want to do is up the cognitive load. You want to make the person have to think hard. In fact, when they told police officers, when you're dealing with someone, instead of asking yourself, is this person lying? Ask yourself, does this person have to think hard? That question alone was able to improve lie detection skills. And the best way, the quickest way that we can up cognitive load

is by asking unanticipated questions. Airport screeners, security screeners, typically detect lies at like a 5% level by asking unanticipated questions that shot up to like 65%. A liar cannot prepare for every question you might ask. And, you know, an honest person can answer quickly. They're just relaying what they know. A liar has to make stuff up. So it's going to be very difficult for them. The example I use in the book is if you were a bartender and somebody came in who was obviously under 21, if you were to ask them, you know, how old are you?

Easy question. They're going to lie and say, I'm 21. If you ask them, what year were you born? Now they're going to have to do some math. Now you or I telling the truth, we know what year we were born. Quick, easy answer. Got to do math, got to slow down. So asking unanticipated questions is a really powerful way to see, are they thinking hard or is this something, you know, off the top of their head? That's a powerful way to detect lies. Very cool. Okay. And then you've got an interesting insight. What do hostage negotiations and marital arguments have in common? It's a key question that you've asked. And if you could relay some of that, I think it'd be fun.

Yeah. I mean, you know, one thing I found was that this whole issue of, you know, empathy, you know, listening, it's really powerful. But the tricky thing is that when you're playing the therapist role, the hostage negotiator role, you're a third party to what is going on. It's very easy to stay objective. It's very easy to stay distanced. But when you're in the middle of it, when somebody is making accusations about you, we typically lose it. It's really hard for us to maintain our cool. So, you know, some of the lessons from hostage negotiation can be

really powerful, but it's a fundamentally different relationship. You are not a third party trying to solve a situation. Now you're in the middle of it. And that's why a lot of times, a lot of the tips, the quick tips, the band-aids that people get don't work because we can't keep our cool when people are pointing their finger in our face and screaming at us as opposed to a third party. So we need to focus on in the moment, you know, what are those four horsemen? What do I need to not be doing? It's hard to really keep it under control. Yeah. Basically it's the active listening model is much more difficult to do. Yeah, that's why I know this, that even as much as I value the sweet science of complicated science of psychology, and I've got a lot of frameworks, when I'm in it with my wife, I can't tell you the value of having somebody that is independent looking at the relationship, not looking really at Mike and Lisa, but looking right at the center of us and has her or his primary focus is the relationship.

It's really, it's just totally different. It's a really important dynamic, I think. All right. Can I ask you a couple intimate questions? Sure. Well, hold on a minute. Am I supposed to go forward with that? Oh yeah. I didn't say I was going to answer them. I said, you can ask them. Yeah. All right. Um, where do you want to belong? I, I want to belong, you know, where, where people really know me and like me anyway, where people care about me. You know, that's really powerful.

People who I know and they know me. I think it's very easy to be involved in communities where people don't know you that well, but that comes back to bite you on the ass because then you're either acting or people aren't doing the right things. I want to be where people know me and they care about me. Did you feel that in your voice when you said it?

I definitely felt like you were talking about where your heart rate goes up when you start being a little bit more vulnerable. Yeah. I really appreciate that answer. And then like in your life, what are you deeply missing? I think I've been missing those close relationships. I, I think that's why I read the book. It was ironic that I closed the deal for the book at the end of February 2020. And two weeks later, California locked down for the pandemic. I was like, whoa, okay, like, this isn't just going to be this isn't just going to be me writing about relationships and lack of relationships. This is gonna be more like a personal reality show. I mean, it was it was very, it was very ironic. My first book, I wrote a lot

about work life balance. Meanwhile, I was sleeping five hours a night and working like crazy 16 hours a day. And this, I was writing a book about relationships while completely cut off from many of the people I care about. What would make you happy to do more often? Happy or meaningful? Meaningful. Well, yeah, let's do meaningful. Meaningful would be for me to spend more time thinking about what I can do for the people I'm close to. I think I do things for other people, but I think sometimes I can get blinders on as we all can and, and be a little too self-absorbed about the people that are closest to us.

Very cool. What wrongs do you want to see be set? Right. You mean in like a Batman saving Gotham kind of way? Totally, yes. Yeah, exactly like that. Yes. No, I mean, for me, it's all about, it's all about like just, I wrote this book. This book was a very cerebral exercise as most of my writing is because it's about research and stuff.

Sometimes I'm a little bit too busy preaching to practice. And sometimes I think internalizing those very cerebral things and making them emotional and reflexive. Like I gotta, I need to spend more time doing some of the things that I've learned about. And, and that's, it's a whole different skillset. The best players are not the best coaches. Best coaches are not the best players and they can both learn something from each other. I knew I was going to love this conversation. Thank you for reminding me too, of just that. I want to encourage people to go pick up your book and get connected to your blog.

So where would you want to point them right now? If they go to ericbarker.org, E-R-I-C-B-A-R-K-E-R.org, that'll redirect them. My URL is a little hard to pronounce. But if they sign up for my newsletter, that's the best way to keep up with the research I'm looking at and the self-improvement ideas that I'm finding in the studies. There we go. Play well with others. The surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong. It's a great title. And Eric, thank you. I really hope our paths cross in person at some point. I've loved your work.

Your first book is awesome as well, Barking Up the Wrong Tree. And maybe we do a round two and we talk about like where Dale Carnegie got it wrong as well. That would be fun. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Appreciate you, Eric. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors

and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges

and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.