Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - ‘The War of Art’ Author Steven Pressfield on Conquering Fear, Self-Doubt, and Procrastination

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

Is the real battle for mastery fought outside of us—or within—and what does it take to win that fight every day?I’m so excited for this week’s guest, Steven Pressfield. Steven is a bestselling author and thought leader on creativity, known for his groundbreaking works like The War of Art and The Legend of Bagger Vance. Steven’s journey is a testament to perseverance—he didn’t publish his first novel until he was 52—and his story proves that it’s never too late to embrace your calling. In this conversation, Steven and I dive deep into the nature of Resistance—how it manifests as fear, procrastination, or self-doubt—and what it takes to overcome it. We explore the concept of the “unlived life” and the metaphor of the “underground river” that represents our innate talents and passions. Steven shares his insights on creativity as a sacred connection, how to discover your purpose, and why living authentically is one of life’s greatest battles.Whether you’re a writer, entrepreneur, athlete, or anyone on the path to mastery, I think you’ll find Steven’s perspective both grounding and inspiring._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. What is resistance and how does it keep us from living the life we're meant to live? Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. I am so excited for this week's guest, Steven Pressfield. Steven is a best-selling author and a thought leader on creativity, known for his groundbreaking works like The War of Art and The

Legend of Bagger Vance. With decades of hard-earned wisdom, he explores the themes of overcoming resistance, discovering purpose, and tapping into the creative flow that exists within us all. So with that, let's get right into this conversation with the legend, Steven Pressfield. Stephen Michael I it feels like a real treat to have you here and um you know be careful what you wish for because of my my appreciation for your work and how you've shaped ideas and where you come from is so rich and so honest. Part of me is hoping that that's not burst in our conversation. And the other half is like, I just can't wait to better understand how you use. Thanks, Mike.

Thanks for having me. And like I just was saying before it started rolling, I'm very impressed with anybody that can put together an outfit and an organization and actually have more people instead of, you know, I'm just impressed with anybody that can put together an outfit and an organization and actually have more people instead of, you know, I'm just one person in a room by myself, you know, so my hat's off to you for all the stuff that you've done. Oh, thank you.

Particularly this new venture here. Yeah, I really appreciate it, thank you. Thank you. You know what I thought we would do is start with, like I was saying, is that your ideas, the place that they come from is as important as the idea. So I'm like split between two. I want to understand how you express your ideas.

But I wanted to maybe start with something more concrete, which is share a couple quotes that just sing at the high table of insight. And I'd love to start with that and just kind of see where you go with them. Can we do that? Okay, good. So the first one I have here is, and this is one that I think you are really well known for, but most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. Between those two stands resistance. Most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. So putting it, let's say, in concrete terms as, let's say somebody is working as an advertising copywriter, and that's the life they live. The unlived life within them may very well be to be a movie maker or be a novelist or something like that and the question is as you know i'm sure

you've dealt with many many times what stops them you know and i i'm really talking about myself you know what stopped me from doing what i want to do and it's that force that i call resistance with a capital r that there is this negative force in the world that stands between where we are now doing whatever it is we're doing, wasting our lives usually, and whatever the higher level is, whatever our true calling is, to find that and then to be able to overcome procrastination, self-doubt, fear, perfectionism, all the other things that kind of stand between us. So that's what I mean by that. Before we go into resistance with a capital R and what that means and how to work with it and what you've learned by the end of one, you being honest with yourself about how this

works, I do want to start with almost a throwaway comment that you just said, which was a wasted life. And I'm also interested in when I read it, my take on that insight is it wasn't so much about roles, but I feel that that light because of let's call it resistance or let's call it fear or let's call it fill in the blanks, lots of different reasons that that journey to bring that forward takes incredible honesty and courage and bravery and commitment. And it's incredibly uncommon to do that. So the life wasted was a jumping off point for me to share that piece. And I think maybe the place to go with us is like, how do you know this? How did you get to this insight? I actually have a memoir that's called Government Cheese. And it's my sort of my history, my story as an evolution as a writer. The short version of it is I just worked a lot of jobs,

banged my head in the wall many, many, many, many times and sort of groped my way from, you know, if this is where I was trying to get to, of being over here to over here to over here to here. And finally sort of, you know, through, I don't know, probably 40 years of trying, finally sort of hitting the slot where I felt like, ah, this is what I should have been doing all along.

The question one might ask is, well, why didn't you go straight to that? Because I didn't know and I didn't have the courage to to get there even if i had known and also sometimes it takes you know those 10 000 hours to get to the place where you can do whatever it is that your calling is it took you what was your the age of your first novel that you released i was 52 yeah that to me when i that, I'm really inspired by that. You know, I think you probably bring a lot of hope for people. When I'd say that to people, I hope I'm bringing them hope, you know, because most people that I say that to are like 38 years old and they're ready to blow their brains out because they're not getting anywhere. And I just say, come on, I was, you know, 38 is your child, you know, 38 is your child.

You haven't even begun. And what emotion do you feel as you're just talking about releasing something at the age of 52 and all the work that came and, you know, the struggle to get to that place? What is the emotion? You mean what emotion did I experience then? Right now, as you're saying it. Well, I feel proud of myself that I finally

did it, you know, and I hope that it inspires other people. Yeah, that's really cool. So just for clarity too, what do you mean by an unlived life? What materially does that mean to you? Let's see, maybe an example. Let's say that you're a young woman and a girl, a teenager, and you have a passion for playing the piano. And your dream was to be a concert pianist. You go to college, you meet a guy, you fall in love. Next thing you know, you have two children. Your husband goes to medical school. You will need to support him or take care of the family. And so the idea of being a pianist gets put on the back burner. And you say to yourself, all the things that we say to ourselves, well, it was a dream, it'll never come true, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's the unlived life. And fortunately for somebody like that, they at least know what it is. But for most

of us, we don't even know what our calling is or what we were put on the earth to do. That's how we sort of grope. We're groping toward that on our hero's journey or whatever you want to call it. So that's the unlived life to me. An analogy I use to myself is the idea of that there's an underground river that flows through all of us. And we had it at birth, if not before birth. And what we're trying to do in this life, I think, is find that river. What is it and how can we let it flow? Because if we don't live it out, it goes into malignant, it doesn't go away. And I'm sure you would agree with this from performance work and stuff like that and the things you've done with Pete Carroll and all the other stuff we were talking about.

So that's, that underground river is the unlived life to me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready

to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach,

it's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that

I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a

performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com

slash finding mastery. Okay. So the underground is the unlived then your job is to be on the current of that that unlived like to be on the on the river to get in touch with that river and to let it flow so you said most people don't quite even realize or don't know yeah i mean i certainly didn't forever yeah So you're just chipping away, groping. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, nobody teaches you this in school, which they certainly ought to, you know? Are we talking about knowing your purpose? Yeah. Okay. And what have you sorted out in a way to help people or for you to better know your purpose? You're familiar, we're all familiar, I know, with the concept of the hero's journey,

Joseph Campbell and C.G. Young and all that. And I think that we all have many of these kind of hero's journeys. And the hero's journey to me is about finding that calling, where it starts in the ordinary world, you cross the threshold, you enter the extraordinary world, you have adventures, you meet allies and enemies and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And theoretically, at the end of Hero's Journey, if it all works out, you find what it is that you were meant to do. I'm a dancer.

I'm a, you know, I'm a singer. I was put on this planet to be a source of inspiration to others or to heal, whatever. And at that point, you move into a second journey. This is my theory anyway, that I call the artist journey. And at that point, your life becomes very simple. And it's really about like, if you're a writer, let's say, and you get to that point where you go, okay, I am a writer. This is what I was put on the planet to do. Then you start to ask yourself, well, what the – can I swear on this thing? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What the fuck was I – what am I supposed to write? You know, what voice am I supposed to be in? What's my subject matter? What's my – that kind of thing. And then your life really becomes about, you know, how an actor calls their body and their voice their instrument, right? Same thing with a writer or a dancer or anything like that. So now it's about how can I hone my instrument, believe in it, find a way to financially support it so I can actually do my work. And then you have found your calling and you're doing it.

Okay. So this river. Which it seems like you're doing right now here in this new venture. Yeah. You know, thank you for bringing it up because it feels like I'm in that slipstream, that I'm on the river. And for me, the river, really, the calling or my purpose is to help people live in the present moment more often. And you say, well, what is it?

Well, that's a great purpose, you know? That's an art, right? That's above and beyond an art. So that's great. Yeah, I feel like it's the canvas is the human experience and the tools are words. And so language is my art. And I base that art on the science of psychology. And so language is my art. And I base that art on the science of psychology.

But the science is not enough. But it is the foundational colors that I'm using for this canvas. And the work to know what the river was is hard work. To know what the river is, is difficult work. And I was thinking like when I said, the reason I use past river is is difficult work and i was thinking like um when i said the reason i use past tense is because the work i did to find that was very very hard how does one find the river that let me ask you let me interrupt you mike sure why was it hard and

what was the nature of the of the difficulty early on me, I love this, Stephen. We're going to go back and forth on these things, right? So at first it was like, I want to make some money. Okay. Then it was like, wait, no, I want experience in life. And I didn't know how to square those two because the experience in life that I was going to, I was navigating toward was nothing to do with money. I was going to travel the world and surf the world

and live very Spartan, if you will. And I thought, God, that's kind of selfish. Like that's not quite it. And then I thought through like, what am I going to do with these tensions that are at odds with each other? And then I found this beautiful science of psychology. So I just kept going, going, going, going. I had no idea how I was going to use it.

And so it was just this time chipping away, groping is the word, chipping away, chipping away at this big marble block that I didn't have this grand vision that there was a David inside of it. I didn't have that. I just kept chipping, chipping, chipping. And all of a sudden it was like, whoa, it's got to be this. This is what's true for me to live the great life is to be in the present moment more often. It changed me.

And so then I said, I want to share. That's how it happened. So I wish I had a faster process because it took me 40 years, 40 some years. That's too long. You know, like I don't know how much longer I'm gonna live. Maybe I'm going to- You look pretty healthy to me, Mike.

Yeah, things are pretty good, but we don't know. We don't know how this thing goes, you know? But you know, I- So what was the actual difficulty? Was it self-doubt along the way or just the sort of sense of not really knowing where you were going? Yeah. So are you asking what was the resistance? Or what was the difficulty?

Many of you said it was really hard. Yeah. The hard part was me not listening to myself and listening to others. So first it was my family, what they thought. Then it was kind of my friend group. It was my wife and her family. And it was not listening to myself was the hard part. And then I think it takes an appreciation for some cold air on your skin to be true to yourself. And so I wasn't ready to have cold air on my skin.

It's obvious that you're a learner. Where does this curiosity about how I work or how others work, where does that come from for you? It just seems like a natural thing to be curious, you know, because I mean, I have my own journey that I'm on and my own struggles that I'm on. And so when I meet somebody like you, that's sort of on a parallel path, but it's quite different. I'm curious, you know, were your struggles the same as mine? You know, is there some commonality there? And can I learn anything from it? And just curiosity.

Let's share struggles. Like what are the struggles that you're trying to sort out now or working through? That's a great question. big struggles now is that um i'm at an advanced enough age that the um this the wisdom that's floating in the air the expectations are floating in the air are that i should start my body should start falling apart and i should start falling apart you know and so one of my big challenges now is to counter-program myself against that, you know, and say, this is bullshit. I'm not going to listen to that, et cetera. And so far, it's been really good for me because the great thing about being a writer is you always have,

theoretically, at least another book coming or another project coming and the the enthusiasm that you have for that kind of keeps you going and make and makes everything fresh because you know that underground river keeps flowing and you're like a leaf that's floating along on it this underground river it's so good i wonder if your curiosity is kind of at the center of who you are like this exploratory curious human and it's always been that way or is this something that you've stepped into i think i've always been curious but i think everybody's curious you know i got made fun of when i was younger uh-huh for want to hear it for being curious for asking too many questions yeah my i mean kids always

ask questions right they ask really you know they're really a pain in the ass you know but they're naturally curious you know yeah and this was by my friends like come on man give me a break like stop asking so many damn questions and they would like i was really curious and then it didn't kind of bode well in the surf world that i was in. So I feel like there's a coming back home to, to my curiosity that I had to, at some point I shed it. I abandoned it. I thought that I could do better for the, you know, approval of others. And that this wasn't the right way to do it. And it was a pain in the ass. And I'm wondering if you think in your experience,

if it's kind of a human condition to be curious. I mean, I, I do. I think that's, you could probably make a case if it's kind of a human condition to be curious? I mean, I do. I think that's, you could probably make a case that that's what makes us human, you know? But I mean, animals are very curious as well, right? Puppies, you know? Some, some. Mice, they're all, you know, sniffing around

trying to figure out what's going on. What's going on. But I think humans are naturally curious, right? It's an evolutionary thing. The more you know, where am I? Where can I find water? Where can I find a mate? What's the danger?

Why is the sunset so beautiful? That kind of thing. I got asked, it was by, what was his, I think it was a monsignor in a Catholic church. And I was peppering him with questions about God. And he kind of stopped. And he had had it with me. How old were you at this time?

I think I was like 17 or 18. And it was over dinner. And he kind of looked at me with the right amount of respect and regard. And he says, I want you to really think about this question. I'm going to ask you, is God inside the sunset or is the sunset inside of God? It's a hell of a question. It's a hell of a question.

It's a really good question. And why did he ask you that at that particular time? And because I was asking questions, like I was really curious going after, like, what is this God thing? Like, okay, so you've dedicated your whole life to it. What i can't see it i can't smell it because yeah you can you're just not choosing to right now and like and so it was like that kind of like thing and then um does it exist was the question does god exist and and so he stopped and

looked at me and says you have to figure something out out. He says, I think God is all things that are true, beautiful, and amazing. I said, okay. And he says, and then he asked the question, is God inside a sunset or is a sunset inside of God? And did you answer that to your own satisfaction or to his? I just looked at him and it was like, good question. Okay. Yeah, good question.

Yeah. When I asked that question, I'll share my insight on it, but when I asked that question to you, how do you frame it? Like, how would your initial response be? Ah, that's a great one. I mean, to me, I don't really know how I would define what God is. That's the hell of a question.

Certainly there are a lot of planets and galaxies out there that have their own version of a sunset. So we're just looking at one of those things, you know. But it is sort of a great question, really sort of like, what is beauty? It's really kind of what that's about. Why does beauty move us? And I don't know what that is.

All I know is it seems to be, if God is in anything, it's beauty, right? But what is beauty for? Is it for what, you know? Sometimes I'm rambling on here, but it's easy to look at this world that we live in, this material world, as a form of hell, you know, and to say that we've been punished and this is why we're here. At the same time, it's incredibly beautiful. So you look at a sunset, how can you think there's anything wrong with this? And I've never been able to figure out what the difference is. Yeah, I've got an insight of yours on purpose that I want to get to, but this idea of, you know, what are we doing here? You're talking about, in a very eloquent way,

knowing the river and being on the slipstream of the river that, you know, from within. And I think it's like that. The metaphor is awesome. My answer, before I go to your next insight, my answer is it's both. You know know to be a pain in the ass to the reductionist you know like it's both you know beauty is and when you're true beautiful and amazing when you're in the presence of something beautiful there's a feeling of awe and then that is truthful and so yeah i've come to appreciate more the experience of beauty that happens in the unfolding, unpredictable present moment. And if I'm anxious and if I'm irritated and if I haven't slept well, or if I've been eating

foods that are kind of screwing up with my insulin and sugar regulation, and I'm just kind of deregulated or dysregulated, I find it very difficult to be here. And so then I miss all of the beauty that the world has to present. So that's how I get down with that idea. But you would also, before I go to this next insight of yours, you said that writers always have another book inside them. That's how surfers think too. Another wave is coming. Yeah. And so my job is to be ready to be prepared to be ready to capture to seize to be part of this unfolding moment that is always brand new every

wave is brand new and so the the job for a great surfer is to be properly tuned to the present moment again i'm coming back to the present moment so that we can capture the next, I don't know, for a writer, the next stringing together of words in a clever way to yourself or a meaningful way to yourself. So I think we vibe together on that. Yeah. Okay. So we didn't really hit on resistance. So before I go to the next insight, can we talk about resistance with a capital R? What that is, because you said there's a dark force. You didn't say that word. You said a negative force. Are you using that in a spiritualist frame?

Or like, what is this force that we're talking about? Well, it's like in this, that quote comes from my book, The War of Art. And one of the things that it says in the book is, if you've ever bought a treadmill and taken it home and find it gathering dust in the attic, then you know what resistance is, right? Resistance is that force that keeps us from getting on the treadmill, that keeps us from doing what we know we should be doing. And, you know, what is our, connecting with our underground river, whatever that is. So there does seem to be this natural force in life that's trying to stop us from being

who we were meant to be. You know, sometimes I say resistance is the devil, and I think that it is, in a way. It isn't only a positive force in this world. There's negative forces, right? Because we see many friends who are casualties of life, right? And I feel myself that I'm fighting a war constantly, and I'm kind of amazed that I haven't become a casualty yet. And what are we casualties of? We're casualties of that force. You know, that force that stops us from following our dreams and makes us settle for some crappy version, some, you know, the life we live as opposed to the unlived life within us. I'm sort of amazed that nobody ever taught me about this force, you know? And when I first wrote about it in the war of art i thought

well i'm the only one that feels this i must be crazy i just gonna put it out there but since then i mean like thousands of people have written to me and and saying and saying you know thanks for giving a name to this thing that i feel too it's like you're writing my life. So that's what resistance is to me. Yoda talked about it. Does he? The force. Yeah. Right?

So you're on to this light and dark, evil and good. You're on to the duality piece here about this energy. And I think a psychologist would say, I'm acting like I don't know what a psychologist would say because that's my training but i think that i would say okay hold on aren't we just talking about negative self-talk aren't we talking about a critical voice and there's no force that's created it rather it's a set of responses to earlier conditions that at one point were very adaptive. I don't think I can do that. I would disagree with that. Yeah. And now they become maladaptive. So the first adaptive was, let's say that I tried something and then everybody laughed and I was the one that was felt naked and everyone's

pointing and laughing. And then I'm, of course I'm going to have a conversation with myself about what's happening. And I say, Ooh, this isn't good. This,

this doesn't feel good. Wow. Okay. Don't try that again. Or remember this moment because let's protect ourselves from this happening again. And that's really the beginnings or the origin story of a critical or negative voice.

And when lots of those happens throughout life, we become easily, we can become pessimistic or critical or anxious or depressed. And you say, no, it's not a force. You say it, I'm sorry.

You say, it's a force. So is that like in, I don't know if some, there's a spaceship out there that, or there's a being that or there's a you know keep going like open this up because i don't i can't extend the metaphor if you want to get into it deep here's my theory on what that resistance is if we think of this

will be psych in psychological terms if we think of the Jungian self that includes the collective unconscious, archetypes of the unconscious, intuition, dreams, all of those forces that are beyond conscious thought, right? The big self. And somewhere in the middle of that self is this little thing called the ego. That is our conscious mind, our reasoning mind, so on and so forth. Let's say we're trying to be an artist and we live in the ego because that's what we're taught, right? Identity. Our identity, you know, our conscious, our I, right? My body, my thoughts.

Right. My death, my fear, et cetera, et cetera. And we realize as artists, as dancers or whatever it is, that if we're going to get to a real source of inspiration, we have to get to the self. We have to get to our intuitions, our dreams, the underground river. The reason I say underground is because it's unconscious to us. When we start to move from the ego to the self, which is, well, when we start to make that move as an artist or whatever, then the ego resists us. Because if we go to the self, we're putting the ego out of business, right? And I'm sure this is a religious experience as well.

Although I don't put it in those terms, I'm sure that enlightenment, whatever that is, is a form of releasing the ego and identifying with the greater self or with God, whatever, right? So the ego puts up resistance to that. And the way it does it is it takes the form of negative self-talk. And I'm not denying that we all have that maladaptive thing, whether it's our parents, our teachers, or whatever it is. But my thesis of this whole thing is that what I call resistance goes way beyond that. We're born with it. And it is a negative force like gravity.

It just exists in the world. That's my take on it. I think even the most highly evolved, the Dalai Lama, whoever you want to be, will still experience it. The greatest artist, you know, in the world, whoever it is, will still wake up in the morning and have to fight that, you know, slay that same dragon every day, even though they may have overcome all the maladaptive voices in their head. That's my thesis. Really interesting. Yeah. Because for me, it never goes away. And I think I've kind of gotten beyond a bunch of stuff. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy.

They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance.

How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest when i'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones

slipping on my felix grays in the evening it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down and when i'm locked into deep work they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in plus they look great clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout.

Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So one of the things I wanted to pull the conversation toward is the war piece of your philosophy. And I really respect what you've written. And I wanted to be provocative again in saying like, are you sure it's a war? And before you answer that, I'm on record saying, you know, when I meditate, sometimes it feels like a standing civil war with inside myself, like it's hard. And sometimes it is, I'm in the slipstream. It's amazing. I'm not sure where time exists. Like I'm completely with the unfolding experience and it's amazing. So I resonate with the standing internal civil war. I'm not sure that that is the highest way

of me thinking about my relationship with myself, my relationship with experience. And so I understand resistance. And I think that it is a function of how brave I can be to speak what I believe to be honestly. And that requires incredible vulnerability. And it requires, for me at least, people to see that and recognize that before piling on and disagreeing. So I just want to ask you, like I've always wanted to ask you, like are you sure it's a war? It certainly is to me. I mean, life is a battle.

Every day is a battle, in my opinion. Now, I don't think that's the highest form of thinking about it. Oh, so we're seeing this. I think it's kind of a, you know, another way to think about, let's say the artist's struggle. One way you could think about that is to say that the artist, the inner world, the war of art, calls upon the virtues of a warrior, right? Courage to keep going selflessness the

willing embrace of adversity that kind of thing but another way you can think about it that's a higher way of thinking about it is it's like being a mother in the sense that if we're talking about an artist now but also anybody that's an entrepreneur or following a vision of any kind that there's a new life inside us that we are carrying. If we think of the mother metaphor, right, which I'm thinking is higher than the warrior metaphor. And because a mother is also like a warrior in that a mother will give her life for her child, will lift a Buick off of her child, run into a burning building for her child. Do whatever it takes.

Whatever it takes, right? A mother is a supreme warrior, if you think of it that way. But that's a much more of a nurturing, giving, maternal thing. So that would be kind of, and I'm sure there are levels a lot higher than that, thinking of it, metaphors. The holy man or woman or some kind of a spiritual thing. But for me, in the real world of my day, it's a battle.

And that's how I see it. Yeah. I get afraid that- Not that, excuse me, not that you don't get past that and into a kind of a flow at a certain point. Right. But the initial kind of jumping into the cold pool that's a battle i agree and i'm glad we had this conversation because i the way that i you we frame things materially shapes the experience that ensues yeah yeah so if for

example this is just a a conversation we're having internally here at finding mastery is change hard. And I said, if we, if we create the position that change is hard, then it always will be. And that word always is not that provocative because if the fundamental statement is that change is hard, then when I'm experiencing change, thereby it's hard. And hold on, everything is always changing. So now I am framing, swimming upstream to the actual nature of life. All cells, all things, all matter, everything is always changing. So if change is hard, then why frame it that way? Why not say change is? And then my job is to be tuned with and accepting the unfolding nature of change. And if I can be in that slipstream, that mindset, that framing, I don't know if I can let go of the warrior.

Like there's a warrior in me because I'm trying to get to a truth warrior. There's like trying to get to the truth of something. Man, that's hard. That part is hard. And I wonder if I can just be more mothering, more nurturing to myself in that way. Yeah. You're definitely aiming at a higher metaphor than I am, Mike. I mean, I would say change is art. It's not that you're framing it or one is framing it that way. I mean, it is. When you changed from your old shoes to your new shoes, was that hard? How do you mean by old and new shoes? Well, when your old shoes are worn out and you're, let's be dramatic.

And, you know, the toes are exposed and the laces are worn out and it doesn't fit anymore. And then you're going to change to a new pair of shoes. Is that hard? No. No. No. Yeah. So not all change is hard. It's the way that you frame it like, oh my God. And those new shoes, your new boots are stiff and they're maybe a little uncomfortable, but it's welcomed. Like, okay, frostbite or stiffness? I'll take stiffness in my shoe. And I just think that how we frame things is really important. And that's why I love how your mind works, because you captured my experience in the high art of living, which is that there is a struggle, there is a resistance, and there is an internal war that is taking place to get to the high art. And so when I say high art of life,

where do you go with that idea? What is the high art of life for you? It's probably a lot like what you're talking about of being in the moment of, it is sort of like, I know when we get in our own way, way we're in our own ego we're thinking bad thoughts and we're not you know that we're we all sense that uh this isn't what we what we were born to do something's we're not vibrating at the right frequency and uh so the high art i would think would be getting to in touch with that underground river, however you want to, or a form of flow or whatever it is, getting out of the ego and into the self, getting into some kind of, like, must be when you're surfing, I would imagine.

I'm not a surfer. Yeah, I think I'm actually here with you now in it as well. It's not just for certain activities. In a conversation. Yeah. I feel like that's where I get to spend most of my time. So I want to be able to have it now, not just surfing. Do you find it mostly in writing or can you find it in other ways as well?

No, I find it in other things as well. You do. Writing to me, I think, is sort of the truest form to my underground river. What if? For instance. Okay. Five or six weeks ago or something, I taught a course. I did like a one-day course.

And it worked. What was it on? It was about writing. It was about some of the stuff we're talking about. Very cool. About resistance, about the underground river flow, that kind of stuff. It worked. People got something out of it.

I've gotten a lot of good feedback out of that. But it wasn't really me. The idea of teaching that, for whatever whatever reason wasn't really my central thing, you know. It was too easy. It's much more what I was put here to do, I think, when I'm sitting at a keyboard and I'm in my imagination trying to. And I'll say more writing fiction than writing books like The War of Art. Yeah. The famous movie about Bagger Vance.

You know, like what a breakout that was. Yeah. I didn't like the movie very much. I didn't have anything to do with the movie, but I do like the book. That's interesting to me. Yeah. What did the movie miss? What did it miss?

Yeah. A lot. I understand. I worked as a screenwriter for a bunch of years, so I know that when you adapt a book, a lot has to be cut. And I know that the screenwriter and the director had to pick what they thought was going to work visually. And they had to jettison things that they didn't think was going to work. And maybe I would have made the same choices that they made. But there was so much in the book that wasn't in the movie that I was frustrated when I saw it. What made you write a book about a golfer who returns from World War I, you know, and lost their purpose? And like, why that narrative?

First of all, I'm definitely, as I know you know, I'm a believer in the muse. And I believe that you get, you know, ideas come to you and you don't know where they're coming from. And it's not really a conscious decision. Oh, I want to write, you know, this thing to write this thing for this particular reason. In that case, I was just seized with that idea. And I can go into, you want me to go into more detail about this, Mike? No, I would love it for the lesson that is embedded in here

which is how to be available to being seized by an idea. And then having the courage to follow that and working through the resistance to express it. If we can create that arc in this, I think it's a brilliant, maybe one of the most important arcs of our conversation so far. Well, you're familiar, I know,

with the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita. Oh, yeah. And now for those who might be listening here who are not, I basically fell in love with that structure and stole it. And the Bagger Vance is just a kind of a knockoff of that Hindu scripture. So it really wasn't about a guy from World War I. That was secondary. The Bhagavad Gita is a story that takes place in ancient India, very short.

I highly recommend it. And in the story, two armies are lined up across from each other, chariots, spearmen, bowmen, that kind of thing. And we are with the great warrior Arjuna and his charioteer who happens to be Krishna, in other words, God in human form. And Arjuna, the great warrior, looks across to the other warriors and he's close enough that he can see their faces. And he recognizes kinsmen and teachers, da-da-da, and he says to his charioteer, drive my chariot out between the two armies and stop.

And what he does out there is he lays down his weapons and he says, nothing good can come of this fight of killing these people. I'm not going to fight. So Krishna, i.e. God, says to him, stand up, take your weapons, fight. You will not be slaying the enemy because I have slain them all already. And then he goes into this really condensed treatise of spiritualism from the hindu tradition and it deals with karma yoga previous lives uh duality non-duality it even gets into like quantum mechanics there's a section in there called the field and the knower so it's really deep shit you know so i just thought let me steal this and i'll instead of a troubled warrior i'll make him

a troubled golfer and instead of his charioteer i'll make him his caddy and what was really interesting to me about that i know i'm rambling on but i want to say this keep rolling steven yeah is that when god appears in human form it seems to me me, in Scripture, and I'm thinking of Jesus, he does not come at the head of armies or as a king or carrying gold. He comes as a servant, like as Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And the same thing is, it's a great truth to that, even though I don't know exactly what it means. So Krishna, God, appears as a charioteer. He's like the servant of Arjuna.

And the idea of a caddy and a golfer sort of really fit into that with me. Where the caddy seems to be this guy that's just carrying a bag, but yet he's a dispenser of wisdom. So anyway, that's where the idea came from. Awesome. Yeah, awesome. But beyond that, I was just seized with it and just felt like I got to do this. And I thought at the time, this is the dumbest idea I've ever had. It's not commercial.

It's a really mystical golf thing. I thought this is going nowhere. But I just was seized with it and had to do it. And to my amazement, it actually found a bit of an audience. Oh, a huge audience. But I never thought that it had any real appeal. I was amazed when it did. Book is great.

Movie was really fun. I don't know when it came out. Maybe it was like 15, 20 years ago or something. Yeah, 2000 or something like that. Yeah, 24 years ago. My son and I watched it. Like, thank you. Like three times over.

You know, it's really fun. Thank Robert Redford. Yeah, nice job there. And, you know, like it reminds me though that the battle is not outside of us. The battle is within us. It sometimes looks like there's an external battle between Arjuna and the kinfolk across,

but it really is the battle, do I go or not go? Do I listen to this charioteer? Do I listen to this other voice that is whispering in my ear or not? Do I listen to the truth that I feel or not? Do I say what I believe, even in the face of great risk and peril of the rejection of others or not? Do I say what I believe even in the face of great risk and peril of the rejection of others or not? And so I feel like the real battle is always internal. And in fact, in the Bhagavad Gita, the names that are given to the warriors on the other side, when they're translated supposedly in Sanskrit, they're names like selfishness, you know, that kind of thing, the actual vices that we have.

But, you know, it strikes me, Mike, that what we're talking about here in a way is the human being was kind of designed to be a tribal being, right? We evolved as tribal creatures where the opinion of others, of our fellows, was very important, right? Because if we couldn't be counted upon to fight the mastodon, the tribe kicks us out and we're dead, right? But now the world that you and I are living now has made individualism possible. So now we're sort of cut free for self-actualization, self-realization. In other words, who am I really?

What is my real voice? Which is, you know, contrasting whether it's competing with the idea of the opinion of others, right? That's what you're talking about. How to free yourself from the expectations of the tribe, whatever that is. But those old habits or that conditioning is all we have as human beings. Two to 300,000 years of conditioning, brain wiring to be tuned specifically for that threat. And I would add to it that I think that we are tribal.

I check, I agree. It feels to me like we are more like a coral reef. And we need a harmony. What do you mean by that? Yeah, a harmony. So a living coral reef has lots of, it's an alive ecosystem that is multidimensional. And we need each other. So this is not about freeing from the coral reef but being a meaningful

contributor to it well that's a great metaphor yeah so for me it's it's not about like let me rise above what the brain and the tribe wants for me but it is how to be in harmony with the river i'll use your analogy to be in the river to my very best ability because when I can do that, when I bring those gifts and those experiences forward, we're all better for it. And so to me, the self-help industry makes me nauseous because it's not about like for me to be better, it's for me to be better for what aim?

To be a good partner, to be a good teammate, to be a good tribal member, to be a good member of this ecosystem in the coral life. So, you know, we are social beings. But we are sort of at the top of like the Maslow pyramid here, you know, where we're fortunate enough in the moment that we can do that, you know, that we have the affluence and the, you know, we're not at war or that kind of thing. Well, we kind of are.

Do you ever see the movie Dr. Zhivago or read the book? No. You know what I'm talking about? No, no, I don't. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, it starred Omar Sharif and Julie Christie. It's probably from, anyway, there's a scene in it where Dr. Zhivago, it takes place in the Russian Revolution during, you know, the teens, the 19 teens.

And Dr. Zhivago is this poet, this great poet that has been, and at some point in the story, the white Russians are fighting the Russians, the communists are fighting this and that. It's total war there. And he gets captured by one of the great generals on the other side that he happened to know in an earlier life. And the warrior says to him, or Zhivago asks him, what do you think about poetry? And he says, I should find your poems absurdly personal. This is Tom Courtney as the actor. And Dr. Zhivago, personal? What do you mean by that? And too personal. And the warrior says, the personal life is dead in Russia, Zhivago. History has killed it. And I remember a chill. It came over me right now when I said that, that we're at the top of the pyramid now being able to talk about this stuff,

but God forbid if the shit hits the fan, we find ourselves down, you know, and we're thinking, we think to ourselves, wow, how great it was that for a while we had a chance to pursue self-actualization, self-realization, you know, and now we're just on the street trying to survive. Oh boy, yeah.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge

pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab.

I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more.

It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash findingmastery.

I can feel a radical pull to the middle, and I'm not sure that that- Politically, you mean? Yeah, no, that's a good point. I was saying a pull to the middle of being part of a pack, and because the middle of the pack is belonging, let's call it. And there's safety in that. But I don't think the middle of the pack right now is healthy.

I don't think our society is healthy. I think that we're really struggling. And I'm just speaking about the West right now. We are obsessed with performance and our identities are wrapped into what we do and how well we do it, rather than being attuned to the river, rather than being tuned to the purpose of what we're doing on this crazy spinning rock

and this body somehow inhabited with these made up words we're using to communicate, like what are we really doing here? And that work, that work feels some of the high art for the human experience or rite of passage to be an adult is to know what are you going to do with your time here? And if we don't know what that is, we get whipped around by the world around us and they will tell us what they want from us.

They will tell us, do this, look that, say this, make this money, abandon your dreams to be able to, like they will tell us that. And so, shit, there's a radicalness in me that is like, we can't keep doing this. We need the brave ones like you to show us and to remind us. That's what you're trying to do. Yeah, come on, man.

To help people. So before we move on, there's one other piece. Can you speak to the listener who says, you're making me sad. I'm feeling sadness because I wanted to be a dancer and I was good and I gave it up and I left early and I didn't really get to express that art. You could say, well, sure, you could keep dancing. But the ambition or the dream was to dance at the highest level. And they left too early. And I could fill that narrative in from dance to surfing to fill in the blanks.

When there's a physical nature to it, you have the luxury of the, you're getting better with age, probably. As the wine is opening up, you're having more interesting life experiences to draw on, a better command of language, a truer sense of who you want to be. Yeah, writing is good that way as opposed to surfing or pro basketball. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you speak to those that the thing that they loved doing or wanted to do that felt like there was their river they got off they were on it they got off of it for whatever reason and that river now has passed

well that's a hell of a question yeah like this is sort of the dilemma of the professional athlete that's that has retired right michael jordan brett farve go to or the the warrior the member of the seal team that you know is has retired from that what how are you ever going to match that adrenaline rush the camaraderie and all that sort of thing it's a hell of a challenge and very few people i mean tom brady is sort of in it right now where he's becoming a broadcaster and he's you know part owner of the raiders now so and michael jordan is doing his nascar thing and you know that kind of thing so but i do believe that there's always the underground river is still flowing if we look at it as a challenge okay i can't dance anymore but there's something that I, there's something maybe adjacent to that,

maybe completely different from that, that will fill that, but that's the hard work. That's the, but there's something there for sure, because the river keeps flowing, but it's hard to find it, you know? That's the internal work that you're trying to help people latch onto. I think the actual craft, dance, writing is immaterial. It's the thing that we, if we're not careful, we say, I feel free when I write, when I play the guitar, when I'm in conversation with others. If I could just do that more, life would be great. And I say, no, it's easy for you to feel a certain way when you're doing that.

But can you bring that sense of ease, full connection to everything you're doing? And that would be part of mastering self and mastering life, which is to be at home with yourself everywhere you are. And I think it's a cool thing to say it happens. There's something special when I can command my mind with language to tell a story and it feels right. Awesome. What a miss, though, if that's the only place you can be alive. I'm saying, Stephen, what if you were a miserable person every breakfast, lunch, and dinner with your partner because you're not writing or you're not writing well? That would be a pretty deep consequence.

And yet there's a lot of reality to that too, you know? When you're not writing well, what is it like for you? Like Tom Petty said, the waiting is the hardest part, right? But then there's another sort of aspect to this, which is that if we think about the archetypes of the unconscious and how we evolve through life from one archetype to another. And, you know, we start out as, you know, the virgin or the seeker or whatever. And maybe at a certain point we are in the warrior archetype that, you know, a pro athlete would be

in or a warrior or something like that. And then we evolve beyond that into the father or the mother, the mentor, the teacher, and finally into sort of the king archetype, the queen archetype, and then the sage and the mystic. So if we as a dancer maybe passed our physical dancing prime, maybe the next archetype is still in the flow of dancing, but might be more of a mentor or teacher or support or something like that. Or it might be that in, you know, like a player, a pro athlete becomes a coach or something like that. Or maybe it's a whole other dimension, you know,

a whole other thing that they go to. Like you say, maybe it's in general a whole life, just a whole being in the moment type of thing, you know, mastery of life that doesn't, as you say, isn't tied down to any specific activity. But there certainly is another phase that that sad dancer can find one way or another. Yeah, you create space for opportunities, for options in your thinking. And you've done a lot. You've been bartender, oil field worker, driver. You've done a lot of,

inhabit a lot of roles. So those are many of the things that you've done over your arc. How do you describe who you are now? I'm a servant of the muse. That's my definition of my occupation. You know, that I'm a believer in a higher dimension of reality that where stories come from

and creative ideas come from. And it's really the same as that underground river. It's something that's not conscious that we need to make conscious. And my job, I see it, is just to do whatever the goddess wants me to do, whatever the next assignment is, that's my job to do it. How do you tap into that place? What do you do to ready yourself to be available, to be tuned?

It is another analogy that I use is the idea of the cosmic radio station, that the goddess or the muse or the higher dimensional whatever it is, is like, is broadcasting. This is kind of what Rick Rubin talks about, what he calls source, right? Which I would say is like the, you know, the 50,000 watt transmission tower, you know? And I'm trying to kind of tune in to that radio. And it comes to you. I think we're all being bombarded with ideas all the time,

but most of us dismiss them right away. Like in the shower or riding down the freeway or something, we'll have an idea for something. Oh, I should be like, what if I did that? You know, or it's a, you know, I'm sure this happens to you all the time, but most people dismiss those ideas as they come in. But I think some of us over the years have trained ourselves to tune into that radio when the idea comes to take it seriously, you know, and write it down or record it or something. And then think about it a little later and test it out again and think

about, come back to it again. And maybe six months from now you go, you know, that was a pretty damn good idea that happened when I, you know, maybe that's what. So I'm always on the lookout for whatever the next thing will be. Very cool. I think in terms of signal to noise ratio. And so similar. That's an engineering term, right? It's also a psychological term.

That the signal is always available. If I'm clouded with the noise, I can't get to the signal. Yeah, there's a lot of noise too. There's a lot of noise. So my job, psychologically speaking, is to be tuned to the signal. So I have to quiet my mind. That's great. What do you do to quiet your mind to get to the signal?

I don't meditate or anything like that. But I'm, you know, in moments like when you're driving is a good one for me, where I sort of, my mind becomes open there. I'm just sort of, I've got a little mechanical task to do, and ideas will come to me then. Or in the moments between waking and sleeping, that's another big one for me. A lot of times the goddess comes at night, you know, and I'll wake up with a thought and, you know,

grab my phone and, you know, write it, type it, you know, put it down. Yeah, so that's, both of those are probably involved in what's called the theta brain state. Ah, is that what that is? Yeah, so delta's deep sleep, which is slow brainwaves. What rests right on top of that is just a little bit faster, but still slow, is theta brainwaves. And rests right on top of that is just a little bit faster, but still slow is theta brainwaves. And then it goes alpha, beta, gamma.

Ah, this is the science you're talking about. This is the science. Yeah, so theta brainwave is this sleepy, creative ADD type of thing that is also involved in flow status in one way. So it sounds like the mechanical job of driving and that's in one way. But so it sounds like the mechanical job of driving and that's in between. Yeah.

You know. Also for me, dreams are a big thing. I'm a big believer in, you know, recording your dreams and trying to interpret them as best you can. Do you wake up and write them? I do. I don't know.

I record them into my phone. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device

that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple.

Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee.

So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY. Again, that code is FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FindingMastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply,

we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose

from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is Finding Mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance.

So when you come from a dream, is it first thing in the morning you say, oh, it was this and this? No, I'll get up at the actual time because I'll forget it, you know? Yeah, yeah, there you go. And then do you ever so we we can predict when dream i don't know if you do this or not but we can relatively well predict

when a dreaming cycle might be and then you could interrupt yourself just after let's call it the third dream cycle and like wake up and go did it happen damn it i just interrupted my sleep for nothing it didn't happen. Or like, yes. Like, oh. There's a technique to do that. Yeah, yeah. So every 90 minutes is kind of when the cycle. Oh, really?

Cycles begin. And then the longer third and fourth cycle is probably the most interesting place that you'll find available dreaming. Oh, cool. I know it's cool. Yeah, not that you want to purposely disrupt your sleep, but that's a technique.

All right, so, okay, look, this is so good. One more quote here I have for you. Our job in this life is not to shape ourselves into some ideal we imagine who we ought to be, but to find out who we already are and become it. So that is, for me, your positioning that we already are everything that we are. It's already inside of us. It's already there. And it's not something that we need to grow into, but rather it's available right now. Is that how you meant it? Yes. Like, I'm definitely a believer. Well, I don't have kids, as i was telling you before but i know from all the kids that i see that they pop into this world with their own personality right away right if you have three kids you know your daughter is already what she was at you know six months old right and and the same thing with puppies and kittens, right? They kind of come into the world with their own sort of personality and their own, you know, one loves to dance, one is an athlete, whatever, that kind of thing. And this idea sort of came out of, for me, out of

the writing of The Legend of Bagger Vance, the idea of the authentic swing and this is absolutely true in golf that a player can basically if as soon as when tiger woods first swung a club at two years old and we have film of this and everything you look at it now you go oh that's a swing and you know you know who jim furick is no oh yes Yes, yes. These are guys with very distinctive swings. They didn't get to the swing by thinking about it or trying. They just had it. It just popped out. It came.

Or if you've ever seen identical twins take up golf, they swing completely different from day one, wildly different. And yet they're made of the same DNA. So that was sort of the metaphor for me the authentic swing equals the authentic self and i believe that you know like that wordsworth poem where we uh we come into this life not naked but trailing clouds of glory do we come from God who is our home? The idea that we've come into this life already with a calling, a personality, bad things too, pain from previous things, guilt, maybe crimes that we had, and that we don't come in as blank slates that we can just write anything we want on it. We are already who we are and our

job. And then like you were talking about, about conditioning and what your parents say, your parents always tell you, well, I want you to do this or do that, or the church tells you this or this. But our real job is to find out who are we really? What do you really love? What is really calling to you? And Robert Greene says that if I'm a fan of his. So that's what I mean by that. Our job is to find out who we are already and then be that. It's really rich. I mean, I think it's absolutely true. Yeah. One of my first principles is that everything that you need is already inside you, meaning that you are already whole. There's nothing that you need from another person to be completely yourself. Now, to be part of the fabric of the coral reef, we need a relationship with each other. And the essence of that relationship starts with your essence with your relationship of yourself and if you feel that you need something outside of you to be okay um we're starting in a pretty corrupt way yeah so it's just kind of the stuff that you worked with pete carroll about when you

were with the seahawks that would be infused in there i mean the essence of that work is to help and i haven't talked about it in this way, publicly at least, but to help identify what makes somebody really special. What is this unique, special thing that just you can bring to this world? It's your unique spark and essence. Let's uncover it. And once we uncover it, let's celebrate it. And then once we uncover it and celebrate it, let's imagine what it would be like to be more tuned to that. And then let's agree

of what a compelling future could be. And then in partnership, let's hold each other to the standard required for you to be at home with yourself over time, especially when most people would struggle to do that. Call it pressure or whatever, whatever. Let's be so extraordinarily committed to that specialness coming forward on a consistent basis. Wouldn't that be fun? And the athletes tend to be like, yeah, yeah, that's what I want. So, all right, well, you know, and so that's kind of the promise that I would make to an athlete or Coach Carol would make to an athlete and I would make that promise to him and he would hold it to me. And so, you know, it is through that relationship of

identifying that really unique specialness and bringing it forward and then having the mental skills to be able to stay true to that, even when the world has great intensity or stress or pressure around it. So you and I are sort of really doing the same kind of work, just from different angles. You know, imagine now. Different vocabularies. What if we were to do something together? Okay. There's another book in you somewhere in there. Oh, my goodness.

Well, like I said to you before, I've always been fascinated by that work that you guys were doing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. What exactly it was. I had no clue. Yeah. But it certainly worked. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, nothing that in the human experience is perfect. There's all types of challenges that we had, but I think the premise of it was really special and we expressed it. I mean, two Super Bowls in two years, winning one in dramatic fashion and losing one in dramatic fashion was an incredible professor, like a teacher of how the human condition works. Yeah, really. Yeah. Look, I could go on and on with you.

I've enjoyed every morsel of this conversation. So thank you. Yeah, this has been great fun, Mike. So if you ever want to do this again, we'll take another crack at it. I would love to do that with you. And where's the most meaningful place that people can be connected to your work? I'm on Instagram, just under my name,

Stephen underscore, whatever they call that, underscore Pressfield. And I have a website that's just my name and my books are on Amazon or wherever books are sold. What's the new book coming? What are you working on now? Believe it or not, I've got like four already done. But I have a recurring character.

I'll do this very short because I know it's boring as hell. I have a recurring character in my fiction, a guy named Telamon of Arcadia, who's like the one-man killing machine of the ancient world, like the Clint Eastwood of the ancient world. And I've done a book about, two books about him, one called A Man at Arms and another one following that. So that's what I've been working on now.

Beautiful. So set in the ancient world. When do we anticipate? A Man at Arms is out right now. It came out like a year and a half ago. And the next one is with my agent now. So we'll see where that goes. Nine months, 12 months for the next one is with my agent now. So we'll see where that goes. Nine months, 12 months for the next one.

Yeah, year, year and a half, something like that. Yeah. Yeah, so from the time- Oh, let me say one other thing. I do have one. I have one thing I can actually pitch. Yeah. I do have a book out right now.

It's a great book for Christmas called The Daily Pressfield. And it's really- Yeah, of course. Yes, yes, yes. Keep going. This is great. It's sort of a compilation of my stuff

that we've been talking about. But in a 365 day, like a devotional, you know, day one, day two, day three, so that each one is just one page long, each chapter. So that if you have a friend or you yourself are a writer or an artist of any kind starting on a long project that you sort of need a little guidance or encouragement along the way, this book, The Daily Pressfield, takes you day one, day two, day three, day four. And it's heavily into the battle metaphor, the resistance metaphor of keeping your head together, facing your demons every day. So that's out there right now, the daily press field.

Well done, mate. Well done. I appreciate this time and your body of work, and I'm excited about what's next for you. All right. Well, thanks, Mike. And I'm excited about what you're doing here. This is an amazing little operation you've got going. I want to see how it, where it goes. Yeah, man. We'll keep in touch and we'll do this again. I'd love it. Okay. Thank you.

Great. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more

insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges

and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website

and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.