Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Translating Passion Into Purpose: Creating a Billion-Dollar Business | Liz Elting

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

“Be bold, dream big. Take the risk. Figure out what it takes to accomplish your goals, and then you will win. Or if you don't, at least you'll get damn near close… We all need to take risks to keep growing and to keep learning.”Imagine the possibilities if you were to take radical and relentless action towards your biggest (maybe even intimidating) dreams – defying fear and uncertainty. Today’s guest, the remarkable Liz Elting, doesn’t need to imagine. She’s living it. Her story is a true testament to what can happen when vision and action align. Now recognized as one of Forbes’ Richest Self-Made Women, Liz’s dreams had humble beginnings in her NYU dorm room in 1992 when she co-founded TransPerfect – from scratch.TransPerfect has since grown into the world’s largest language and business solutions provider, with over $1.1 billion in revenue and operations in more than 100 cities worldwide.Her new book, ‘Dream Big and Win’ is a must-read for anyone who is pioneering their own path to purpose-led success. It offers practical wisdom on not just how to dream big but also how to win in both business and life. Now, in today’s conversation, we delve deep into:How to take radical action in pursuit of your dreamsThe definition of modern leadershipHow to use adversity to fuel extraordinary growthThe art of balancing self-discipline with self-compassionThe secret to cultivating enduring passion and purpose, no matter life’s circumstancesAnd so much more!_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and make a career out of it, go do it. Take the risk. Try it because you will be so much happier. Okay. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. I trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And today, I am so stoked to introduce to you a prominent name in the world of business, the remarkable Liz Elting. She has earned her place amongst Forbes' richest self-made women.

It's a pretty epic award. Now, I want you to pause for just a moment and imagine the possibilities if you were to take radical and relentless action towards your biggest dream, working through fear, grinning in the face of uncertainty. That's what she did. That's what she's continuing to do. Her story is epic. It's an epic testament to what can happen when vision and imagination and action align. Liz's dreams had humble beginnings in her NYU dorm room in 1992 when she co-founded

a company called TransPerfect, and she did it from scratch. TransPerfect has since grown into the world's largest language translation and business solutions provider, with over $1.1 billion in revenue and operations in more than 100 cities worldwide. And Liz's impact goes well beyond business. She's the founder and CEO of the Elizabeth Elting Foundation. She's a best selling author, a linguophile, a philanthropist, and a mother. Her new book, Dream Big and Win, is a great read for anyone who is pioneering their own path to purpose-led success. It offers

practical wisdom on not just how to dream big, but also how to win in both business and in life. Now, in today's conversation, Liz and I delve deep into how to take radical action in pursuit of your dreams, the definition of modern leadership, and how adversity can fuel extraordinary growth. We'll also explore balancing self-discipline with self-compassion, how to cultivate enduring passion and purpose no matter life circumstances. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the unstoppable Liz Elting. Liz, I'm so stoked to have you on. I've been looking forward to this conversation,

to learn from you, to learn from a pioneer like you. But before we jump right into it, how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you, Mike. I'm so stoked to be here. Thank you so incredibly much for having me. How are you doing? Yeah. I felt like I was on the shelf for the last five days. I caught a bug. I caught something. And it, um, it was not COVID. It was, uh, I don't, I, I, I was on my back for the last handful of days and I, I haven't been sick for like, I don't know, three, four, five years. Like it's been a long time. I forgot how long. So I'm just on the tail end of it. You might hear it in my voice. Um, but that's where I've been the last five days. Oh, I'm so sorry. You're also on the bookshelf. Congratulations on your book.

I saw that too. I saw that. Ditto. Ditto. I know. I'm so happy to talk about your book and your incredible adventure of a life. And so how has the book tour been for you? The book tour has been fantastic. Thank you so much for asking. I've loved every minute of it. I've been, I've loved meeting the amazing people when I go to the events and I speak and then I hear their questions and I really think, and then I learn from them and the other speakers. The whole experience has been fantastic along with the podcast, which I've done where I've met amazing, brilliant authors, podcasters, people like you. So thank you for asking. It's been fabulous.

Fabulous. Very cool. All right. in a dorm room with your boyfriend, basically, to becoming the world's largest provider of language and business solutions, $1 billion in revenue per year. What an amazing adventure. And so before we get into how you built the business and how you navigated that, I do want to start with two questions. Okay. So growing up, did your family, your community, did you see yourself as a sure thing or more of an underdog? Well, that's a wonderful question. And I would say I am a, I was a complete underdog,

complete underdog. And that's why, you know, I love that question. And, you know, one of the great sayings is, and good at things, but as far as confidence, as far as feeling like I was going to go and lead and win, I don't think that was a sure thing at all. So I guess that saying that I just kind of referenced is, is true. I mean, I think I performed well. I had my strengths, but, but it, I was by no means a sure thing. Not, not at all. And I had plenty of moments where I felt like the underdog and I was the underdog. Was, did you come from a family of spoils in wealth or spoils in love or spoils in maybe both? Or like, what was the abundance that your family generated? Yeah. Well, definitely, we did not have spoils in wealth at all. My parents were both very well-educated, and they were very good at what they did. My mom ended up going into education and being a teacher and a guidance counselor and all of that.

And actually, what was interesting about my mom was she was always very smart. She was the valedictorian of her high school class with over 700 kids. And she was very motivated. But I remember her dad said to her, you can either be a doctor or a mother. She wanted to be a doctor because he was a doctor and she would go on house calls with him. And she thought, oh, boy, this is my choice. Well, then I've got to pick mother. So anyway, the point is, she ended up going into education because that's a good thing to do while you're being a mother. And that was my mom. As far as my dad, he was very entrepreneurial. He was in marketing and then in advertising. And we then ended up having a very interesting time when

we moved to Portugal because he had the opportunity to open Kentucky Fried Chicken over there. So he was entrepreneurial. But back to the question of how I was brought up, they were very motivated. They were very creative, but they said, you need to work. You can't be financially dependent on anyone except yourself. And of course, to me, that meant on them, on a boyfriend, a husband, no one. So they really taught me that. And I think that was a huge part of that. Yeah. Was this in the seventies and the eighties? Like what, what, what decade? This was in the seventies. And yeah. And I, I had my first job in 1976 when I was 10. So it, and when I turned 16, they said, okay, we're going to stop paying for your clothes and your entertainment. So, you know, make sure you're making enough stop paying for your clothes and your entertainment.

So, you know, make sure you're making enough money to pay for those things. And it wasn't that we didn't have the money, but they were trying to teach me, you know, you need to have a work ethic and you need to take care of yourself. So as a result, I had many jobs from the time I was 10. Was there, what was the anxiety in the family? Well, what kind of anxiety was there? That's a very interesting question. I mean, you know, my parents ended up having, they ended up getting divorced. So they ended up having, you know, whatever. They were not the right fit, ultimately.

So that caused some challenges. And I talk about that a little bit in my book, when I was at camp, and my mom showed up for visiting day. And that's where I learned for the first time that they were going to get separated. I was 10. You know, so that was hard as far as anxiety. Honestly, if there was anxiety, I think it was related to that, you know? Yeah. And I think that's hard for all kids who go through that. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Sometimes, I say 100%, but sometimes the level of trauma in a family system when couples are together and it's just really bad for everybody, it's way worse than the separation. And so, you know, that's, those are pretty rare conditions, but so it's not, it's not writ large, but. No, no, no, that's no. And you're right. Sorry to interrupt, but you're absolutely right. I mean, they were, they started getting separated when I was 10 and they were together apart, together apart. They were torn because they like so many parents, they want to stay together for the kids, but they knew they were not a good match. And so ultimately, of course, it's better when people in that situation get divorced, but it's traumatic for everyone along the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, that leaves like an uncertainty about the future. It's like you have to redesign your world philosophy or your like how the world works when all of a sudden your safety mechanisms are changing. And okay. So the reason I'm asking that question is because people that work as hard as you work, if you're an underdog,

means you had to work now. People that work as hard as you work, and I'm going to slide myself right in there. There's usually some trauma or just some dysfunction that sits underneath of it. Usually it's some sort of anxiety or usually. So like, do you think that you could have achieved the level of external success without some sort of internal trauma or unsettledness that you potentially were working from? You know, I love that question because I think you make a wonderful point. And and yes. So to to your question, absolutely. I don't I probably wouldn't have. And I'm a big believer. And I learned this when I was hiring people. I liked to hire people who had experienced adversity, you know, whether it was with their family, it was financially. So they were hungry. They were motivated to prove either to pay the bills. There they were having to worry about every penny. So they needed to make sure they could make money or they had people who didn't believe in them, either socially or people at school or their family, and they had to prove everyone wrong or

whatever the issue was. So yes, I did find when I hired people who had experienced adversity, they ended up being better. And people who had had it too easy, and they were too much the sure thing. They often peaked in high school or college. And then, you know, they just kind of figured out someone will always take care of me or it will always work out. And I talk about that actually a little bit that we would initially. And I mean, I want we've got to hire all the people from the top, top schools, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, because they can deliver. And then I realized often they weren't going to deliver. They weren't going to give it their all. Maybe it was because they only wanted certain jobs or maybe their pedigree or their school that they had gone to had carried them through, but they weren't willing to put in the work at our company to be the best. And so that kind of relates to, they hadn't

experienced the adversity perhaps, but absolutely I had experienced adversity and so many people have, but whether it was my parents' divorce, whether it was a little story I tell about in my book about something that happened, you know, in school, either when I was 12, or when I was 14. I talk about both. Yeah, those were life defining moments for me, that I think made me feel like I've got to, and then I had others after that, that I talk about a little in my book. And yes, absolutely. Those moments I think made so much difference. They made all the difference. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing

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into with you is this is more forward facing, not forward facing. This is more forward thinking is that there was a Forbes interview where you said, I can be a pioneer in this industry. So that's your ability to use your imagination and to cast forward what you could possibly see as a future and to see yourself in it and maybe even how to navigate towards it. But just that felt sense that I can be a pioneer. I can be a pioneer niche down in this industry. Where did that pioneer spirit come from for you? Sure, sure. Well, and okay, so I mentioned, and back on the adversity, if you want to hear any of those anecdotes, let me know and I'll go back to them.

But as far as the pioneer, because I can always share that. But as far as the pioneer, what ended up happening after, basically what happened after college, I worked in another translation company, loved it, but thought it could be done better, went back to school, got my MBA, and briefly tried out finance. I then realized after a very short time in finance, it ended up being a total of six weeks. I could not stay there. I thought, but then, you know, my heart wasn't in that. That wasn't my passion. I know I loved the translation industry and from my time in it, I thought I could do it better. But the problem is there are already 10,000 translation companies out there. When I started my company, there were 10,000 translation companies out there.

When I started my company, there were 10,000. Now, they were tiny. They were mom and pop type companies, usually between two and five people. And the people who owned them were fabulous. They were talented linguists. But if you're busy being a talented linguist doing the translation, you can't scale your company. So I thought, if I'm going to do what's already been done 10,000 times, I've got to do it differently and better. Because I just, I don't want to start another translation company. Nothing wrong with it. But I thought,

if I'm going to do it, I'm going to shoot for the stars. Not to mention, I had just gotten my MBA and my parents had basically paid for that. And I thought, well, if I'm going to go and start a translation company, which I didn't need my MBA for, I've got to reach for the stars and win because I have people who put themselves out there for me. So there was that issue too. So I felt like I couldn't. I had to be a pioneer. I had to do it differently. Of course, I had the business background and I loved languages.

So I could be a business person bringing translations to the world. But those were the reasons why I wanted to do it that way. Okay. So what's the reason underneath of it? Underneath which? Like the reason. So you said those are the reasons. The reason underneath why you wanted to build basically a translation company.

Oh, the... The world's largest. But what was the reason underneath of it? Well, okay. I mean, in a nutshell, I loved languages. When I was eight and I moved to Portugal, yes. And I had a normal upbringing up until then. I had lived in Westchester, New York, went to a normal school. Life was very normal. Then we went to Portugal

in 1974 and no one was doing that. And I started studying Portuguese and French and I started speaking Portuguese everywhere I went. And I realized, wow, this is for me. And I was shy at the time. And I really started coming out of my shell when I was speaking Portuguese. So I realized I loved them. Then came back to the U.S. for a year and then moved to Canada, to Toronto when I was 10. And in Toronto, I started studying more languages. And ultimately, by the time I graduated from high school, I had added Latin and Spanish. So studied four languages by the time I graduated from high school. Knew I loved them.

Majored in languages in college. And then I had the opportunity to live in Spain during my junior year and work in Venezuela after college. So I had all this wonderful experience living in foreign countries, studying foreign languages. So languages were my passion. I then worked. Yeah, yeah, they were, I learned they were my passion. Yeah. That's the trend. That's the crosswalk between pioneer and language. Okay. So this makes, this makes actually great sense, doesn't it? Is that you had all this rich experience with language, there was a travel aspect. That in and of itself is a unique experience. And then for you to see

that, oh, I could be a pioneer in this space. So I want to niche down one more time because not everybody gets to travel the world. Not everyone finds something that they love early. No problems. But we all have an imagination and it's an underused radical tool. And when you don't cultivate imagination, it turns into anxiety really quickly. So how do you use your imagination to see a beautiful future? Does it just happen? Do you sit down and write or think or talk? How do you create the idea of what could be amazing later? Oh, that's a great question. How do you? And I, you know, I think back to, you know, your, your question when I experienced adversity and I was sort of on the other end where

I wasn't on stage and creating the biggest and the best. And I was the opposite. I was the worst. And I think, wow, wouldn't it be great to be the best and I'm going to give it my all and do whatever it takes to get there. And I think it's visualization. It's having a vision for what could be. And then, you know, from the vision comes the specific goal. Like, okay, my vision is I want to be a star. I want to be on stage. I want to create something amazing. I want to prove everyone wrong.

All the people who saw me as an underdog, all the people who didn't believe in me. And so you have the vision. And then from that, you come up with a specific goal. In my case, it was to create the world's largest language solutions company, the premier company in the industry. And then along with that goal, what actions do I need to come up with to get there? But, but it came from, as you referenced before, from the childhood where, you know, the opposite was happening. And I thought that I want something big,

and I'll do what it takes to get there. Okay, I'll do what it takes to get there. I look back at my earlier part of my life and I would go pretty far to have that. I mean, I almost lost my marriage. I just went really far to in an unhealthy way to try to be the best when I wish I was focusing on being my best. And I don't want to, I don't have regrets and I want to take it back. And my wife and I, thank goodness that we, we worked through all of that really hard time. But when you say I'll do whatever it takes, what does that mean for you?

Yeah. Yeah. No. And you're right. And I think a lot often it was, I wanted to be the best, but above all, I wanted to be my best.

But is that, is that an honest, is that really honest? Like you, no, no, it's both right. Of course it had to be my best because my only,

my best was the minimum, right? And then you also want to be the best, right? And, and I'm not, I'm still, say that again. That's super interesting framing. My best is the minimum. Well, yeah, because we can all be the best we can be with that. And that is, I think what we all go through in life. We can control what we do. We can control giving it our all and getting the best results we can get. But will that accomplish our goal, our ultimate goal? Not necessarily because there are factors beyond our control. So you're right. My best is the most important thing because that's what we can control. So I like that you, you know, I think that's great that you bring that up. And, but I also think it's the concept of, you know, people saying, well, you've got to shoot for the stars because even if you don't get there, you'll get damn near close.

You'll get a lot closer if you shoot for the stars rather than just say, well, say, well, you know, I want to have a reasonable life. I want to be reasonably successful, you know, shoot for the stars and then you'll get close and at least it will be your best, if not the best. So that's a great point. Yeah. Because yeah, you do talk about, um, you know, this idea between like helping people dream, you know, and then taking the action. Like I, I have such a respect for the power of imagination again and there's there's a there is a gap um and maybe a maybe a want that is greater on one side of the equation the other and let me explain what I'm saying is that the dreaming part and then the planning and the doing part and so sometimes people. And so sometimes people don't dream,

and they don't dream big for lots of reasons. Family narrative, self-narrative, they've just never been kind of challenged to think that way. So they don't really express bold, ambitious, imagination-based dreams. And so they just kind of would rather play it safe and whatever. Okay. And that to me feels tragic in some respects.

And some people actually do dream big and then they've got their community that says, you can't do that. And so that's a little bit different than the first part, you know, and there's great tragedy in that as well. But some people, let's speak to the people that are using their imagination. They've got these really amazing dreams about a compelling future. And then they don't quite have the wherewithal to square between that dream and the plan to make it true and then the actions to make it so. So like, can you talk about what all of those three, or maybe even just one that you'd latch onto that you, you feel like you've got a point of view on?

Yeah. And I mean, I understand a lot of people think, you know, they don't, for example, have, I think it is harder for a person who feels like I just can't financially take that risk because I'm just scraping, you know, together enough money to to put food on the table. And I understand that issue. And that's, I think, when it gets really, really hard. And, you know, those people who are able to accomplish something with those circumstances, obviously so much harder. Right. But wasn't that wasn't that you? Didn't you just describe yourself when you started the company? You took $5,000 out of your bank account? No, you're right. But I still know that I had the good fortune to have already had an education,

which is big. I see. I see. Yes. But not that you need an education. I mean, I'm a big believer in education. And I think it along with entrepreneurship are the great equalizers. So you went to one of the top, top schools in the world, you know, like, you know, as a graduate program, as an MBA program. And where did you go to undergrad before we, I went to Trinity college in Hartford, Connecticut. And yeah, but no, so I was very fortunate. But I and and that's why I get like, I think it's so important to help people be able to do that. But

yeah, I guess I'm thinking most people and most people I have come into contact. Yeah, they may not have so much money, but they have enough to scrape by and start something new and take some risk. And that is what I did. And as I said, when I started it after getting the MBA and learning after four weeks, I had to quit my job, gave two weeks notice. In six weeks, I was gone from the finance job, which is what I thought I should be doing. And then I realized, but my heart wasn't in it. I thought, I'm going to do this, but I'm not going to spend a bunch of time. Like if we get to the business side, getting funding, you know, meeting with investors and doing all that because I don't have time to waste and I don't have money to live off

of, to your point. So I had to get right to it and sell, sell, sell and bring in enough revenue to start paying the bills and building our company so you're right I did do it that way but I think a lot of people don't want to do that and that's where I guess the issue with risk comes in people don't want to take that risk I do think I was encouraged I was I was brought up in such a way that my family wasn't so much about everything being so safe and secure. I mean, sure, we did live that kind of life. But, you know, I think I was fortunate enough to be able to take the risk.

What was your risk? Oh, my risk was there I was with my MBA. And I did I left a job where I was doing equity arbitrage, which I tried for, as I said, a total of six weeks, realized my heart wasn't in it. I was not going to be happy. And sure, it would pay the bills. But I would always wonder what if and my heart was not there. So I then quit and started my company out of the NYU business school dorm room. And it was related to my passion languages. And I thought if I'm going to do it, I'm going to go for it and build the biggest translation company in the world. So that was the risk. Yeah. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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and use the code finding mastery 20 at Felix gray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. So the wait, the risk is knowing that you had a dream, but you didn't go for it. Yeah, that's a very good point. People say, I can't take the risk, but isn't it a risk not taking the risk? Because then you're just stuck in something you're not very happy with and your life could just unfold in a way that was not true to where you really wanted to be and it wasn't what you wanted to be doing and you had never tried what was your dream. And so the risk is not doing it. Like I've just feel that pain. Like I really feel for people who don't do it. Yeah. And I, I, yeah. And I feel, um, the responsibility that I've

caused in some people's lives for not going for it causes too strong that I've, I've, I've, I've contoured my language and approval or disapproval in ways that have maybe shaped people from, to not go for it. And this is, hopefully I haven't done this, you know, you know, hopefully in the last like 10, 15 years, but like that, that there's so much pain in that, that I just, I wonder if other people feel that as well, like not going for it or feeling like you don't have what it takes to go for it. Right.

Right. And that is really, that's a big part of why I wanted to start talking more publicly about I'm sure you have. I'm sure you I mean, you, you put yourself out there, you do it every day with what you do. So and I'm sure the people around you, you encourage them to do it as well, just by how you live. But, you know, because I think it's a couple things. It's how you live. and then it's what you say. And I think, you know, that's what we see. We see what our parents do. We see what those around us do. And then we try to say the right things as well. But I think it's so important for me to say to people, yes, go for it. Be bold. Dream big.

Take the risk. Figure out what it takes to accomplish your goals, and then you will win. Or if you don't, at least you'll get damn near close. But what I was going to say is, I think part of what makes it work is really being all in and really focusing on it and believing in it. And focus, pocus is one of the things I like to say. It's the concept of if you really focus, it's like magic. But it's not overnight magic. It's focusing on one thing intensely and giving it everything you have. Because I think what some people do is they try to do too many things at one time.

And they think that's their dream. But then if it's business or if it's a cause, sometimes you just need to be all into one thing. And certainly that was the case with me and my company in order to accomplish the big goal and put the other things aside for the time being. And does all in for you, that means no plan B? Does that mean burn the bridges, burn the boats? Or does it mean something else for you, that means no plan B? Does that mean burn the bridges, burn the boats? Or does it mean something else for you? Well, the truth is I didn't really have a plan B. And I do think that's good because then you just have to keep going, giving it everything you have, have your goals each day and make sure you accomplish them. And you can't just think, well, if it doesn't work, I'll do this.

I really didn't have much of a plan B. So I think that's one thing. And then the other part of it is don't try to, I mean, we all want a balanced life. But I think it's hard if you want to really accomplish what could be your dream. It's to do too many things at one time. So when I was working hard on my company, I was all in on my company. And I kind of put aside some of the socializing and some of the hobbies. I mean, pretty much all of them.

And I think that's what most people who were very successful in their careers do. And they go all in. And then they find the joy in their business. and they connect with the people they work with. And that's socializing to them. But it's not trying to have too many different activities at one time, if you really are reaching for the stars on one in particular. I love that. It is how I've worked. It's how I've seen best in the world operate. Plan B can, if my wife was here, she would say plan B diffused plan A. And so I think we're saying the same. Yeah. So how do you square this message? So we're talking about being all in. And both of us nod our head to say, you've really got to apply hard, you got to be a grinder mentality. How do you square that with all in?

Do you see them as the same? Do you see them as different? Well, yeah. I mean, and you're saying that this generation is getting that message or they don't believe in that message. No, they're getting the message like hustle hard get after it and and some people are pushing against it you know some of the many respects some of the generations are saying um i'm gonna work you know after i get my avocado toast you know that type of idea but there's definitely a hustle

hard get after it you got to be a grinder, you know, don't sleep. That's for the week. You know, there is that undercurrent that is being a little bit more noisy than I thought it would be still. And how, how do you square that hustle hard mentality with be all in? Well, I actually can relate to that mentality, except it used, it used to be, I'd eat my chocolate chip cookie after I, if my chocolate chip cookie after I did my 100 cold calls. Now it'd be the avocado toast, right? But after, not before. You see, that's the whole thing. After, right? Make yourself do the tough thing. And then you get a little reward. And I talk about that in my book, but that was how we built it.

That was, it was hustling. It was being intense. It was being tough on myself and, and not being too much like, oh, well, I need a break right now. I mean, no, be tough, hustle, show up when others aren't, you know, I mean that I do believe in that. And I know we deserve to be happy. Everybody deserves to be happy, but that's how you build your dreams by going all in and hustling and being tough on yourself and working harder than the rest and showing up when the others don't. Yeah.

Okay. I'm down with it. And I also want to put an asterisk next to hustle hard for just a moment. But let's go to, to be tough on yourself. How do you do that without, how do you uniquely do that? Or maybe how do you teach that without crossing the line of being the critic, brutal, you know, where you just absolutely dress yourself down and it's like, you know, you feel terrible about yourself. Like how do you, how do you navigate that space between, between being tough and hard on yourself and at the same time, loving and kind? Like, how do you do that? Well, loving and kind to yourself, you're talking about to yourself and right. Yeah. You said be tough on yourself, right? Yeah. But I think, you know, assuming your goal involves accomplishing something big, then, you know, during while you're going through the actions, you are being tough on yourself.

Do you know with the actions you have to do? And and then at the end of the day, whenever you're done, you you feel great. You feel like I did it. I accomplished what I needed to as opposed. And so you are showing yourself love and kindness because you, during the day, were tough on yourself. And then at the end of the day, you get some sort of reward. It's the satisfaction. It's getting to go out to dinner or to a party because you were intense and you did what you needed to do or going home and seeing your family and whatever the reward is. But I don't think the two are in conflict.

Being tough on yourself in order to accomplish your goals in a compartmentalized period of time and then at the end of the day or at the end of the week or whatever it is, going and rewarding yourself. I think the two work great together. I think they do as well. The way that I think about it is that I want to have incredibly high standards. And so I need to understand as best as I possibly can what good looks like, what excellence looks like, to understand those two. And those are very different standards. And then to never tear myself down or others in the pursuit of excellence, in the pursuit of

being your very best towards sustained excellence. So I I love what you're saying in being tough on yourself, but you are not saying things like, this is more of an adult show. So give me some permission here to say something like, what the fuck is wrong with you, Mike? You know, or like, Mike, you can't get this shit done. Like, this thing is kind of like, who are you kidding? You know, it's not that type of bite for me, you know, anymore. At one time it was. But like, what is the line look like for you between where you're tough and then when you slip into being like tearing yourself down? Oh, yeah.

But I think it's because as long as we're tough on ourselves about the actions we need to take and, you know, to, to get there, whether it's pushups, whether it's making cold calls, whether it's, you know, things that are quantifiable actions and having a certain number that we need to publish in order to achieve the big goal. Like as long as we do the things to achieve it, we can't control the outcome, but I think we need to be tough on ourselves about the actions. So, but what does it sound like? What does it in your head? What does toughness sound like? Well, like, yeah, I'm like for me and building my company, it was things like, well, I'm not going to let myself get up and have a cup of coffee until I've made a hundred phone calls to figure out who at a

company would have a need for our services, or I'm not going to, yeah, going to let, you know, I'm not going to go for lunch until I've sent out a hundred letters. Got it. Okay. So toughness, but yeah, so toughness comes from you is about reward later. Like I'm going to be disciplined, quote unquote tough, and then have the, I see how you do it. Yeah. And, or I remember in college, I never felt comfortable going to a party until I had a certain amount of work done. And sometimes I'd arrive at the party, you know, right, not right when it started, because you know how it is, those kind of parties, you don't have to be there on time. It's not a sit down dinner.

And but I knew I had accomplished what I needed to, to let myself enjoy the party. And I would enjoy it that much more because I had gotten done what I had to get done. And I wouldn't procrastinate it because that would just make me miserable inside. So yes, it's the reward at the end for doing what you must do. But then as far as the results, like whether I got an A, whether you ended up being the, like, I guess in sports, you know, winning the game or winning the World Series or winning the Super Bowl, whatever it is, that you can't be so tough on yourself about because there are other factors that you can't control. But if you do the right

actions every day over a sustained period of time, you're likely to accomplish the big dream. Or as I said before, at least get damn near close. But the point is, it's being tough on the actions that you have to take and then rewarding yourself after. Do you trust yourself? Regarding what? Decisions you make. I've definitely made some wrong decisions in my life and I've made some right ones. I, I, you know, I know I'm, I've made plenty of mistakes and, and I like to talk about my mistakes because, you know, if I knew then what I know now, I

wouldn't have made those mistakes. So I like to share what I've done wrong. And I, you know, I do that. Yes. I've made plenty of mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's one way that we can, like, you can make lots of mistakes and work yourself into a position where like, man, I made a lot of mistakes. Nobody should trust me. I don't trust myself, you know? And because what I'm hearing is that you do have high standards. You're disciplined in work than reward. And that's how you're thinking about being tough on yourself. Like do the hard thing now, celebrate later. You're not going to enjoy it anyways. Like if you know that you've got 15 things hanging over your head, so like grind, get it done. Okay. All right, cool. But you don't tear yourself down. I don't hear you going anywhere in this conversation like, oh man, it's hard to be in my head. Like, oh, if you only knew what I said to myself, like, you know, I'm constantly telling myself I'm this, that, and the other, you know, and maybe I'm missing that. Maybe you're not self-critical in that. You're not.

Like you build, if you, if you, the way you spoke to yourself, if you spoke to me that way, what I'd say, oh my God, she's a great coach. Or would you say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't want me to coach you the way I coach myself. You know, I think I've learned over time not to be so tough on myself or, and hopefully that carries out to how I treat others. Because I used to be what a lot of women are and a lot of people are is a complete perfectionist. And nobody wants to be that ever, right? It's the worst. I mean, often it makes us strive for excellence and always want to do better and fix it and all of that, but it also can paralyze us. And, or if we do something and we don't do it perfectly, which is pretty much all the time, then we start questioning

ourselves and berating ourselves. So the point is, I've learned not to be a perfectionist over time. And that's taken a lot of work and a lot of time, right? That's from experiencing the negatives of being one where I would be one and then I would be like, that was no good. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? And then now I just realized, okay, didn't do something right. I made a mistake. I move on and do it right the next time or do it better the next time. So yeah, I've learned that from a lot of work because my inclination always was and is to be a perfectionist. So I think we just have to learn that perfect can be the enemy of getting it done. And now, one final word from our sponsors.

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and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. and he's the author of The Perfectionist Trap. And yeah, he was just spot on with just what a tricky little boa constrictor the feeling of needing to be perfect is. And unfortunately, perfectionism

with just enough narcissism and anxiety and like that little soup of unhealthiness can get you pretty good at something. But it's definitely not something that I would recommend. It doesn't need to be that way. And so could you speak right in? If you struggle with perfectionism, could you speak right to people that are going,

oh my God, that's me. But you know what? It's working for me right now. Could you speak right to people that are going oh my god that's me but you know what it's working for me right now like could you speak right into them so someone who is dealing with it um but it's working for them you're saying they think they're getting good results they're getting they're performing well they're getting the grades they're getting the accolades that you know yeah yeah no i mean i i suppose you know i guess what i'd say is if i met someone who was saying i'm a perfectionist but it's not a problem and i'm it's working for me then i'd say then then keep doing what you're doing don't change your winning winning game kind of the baseball i'm a big baseball fan that's why i say that um but the but if you're doing don't change your winning winning game kind of the baseball I'm a big baseball fan that's why I say that um but the but if you're talking about someone who is a perfectionist but it's not working as well then obviously there'd be something else to say but if it's working for

them what would I say to them I mean you're saying where it's not a problem it's interesting no you know I'm saying I yeah I'm saying they're getting the grades, but they, the anxiety, so perfectionism and anxiety, um, you know, their expressions of each other. And so, um, somebody who's striving for perfection is oftentimes so anxious about not being okay for just who they are. So that, that's kind of the undercurrent, but they don't know it's not working. No, they're getting the external rewards. So they're getting the good grades, but they're on this exhaustive treadmill of having to show right as opposed to feeling okay. Okay. Yes. And that's no good. You're right. And there are a lot of people like that. And especially in this day and age, young people, you know, millennials and younger excellence because we should all strive for excellence. You

know, why not? I mean, we all should be doing the best we can be, doing the best we can do, but don't be anxious. You know, don't let, don't be so anxious about it because a lot of times it's not going to work out, but as long as you're striving for it and you're doing what you need to do to achieve excellence, that's the important part. Then you will get there. And then, you know, of course, there are all the stories of people who who failed and failed and failed and failed until they succeeded. And that's OK, too. I mean, just on a separate note, if you're if you're too much a perfectionist and it's working for you, then you're likely not to take a risk.

And we all need to take risks to keep growing and to keep learning and to keep achieving. That clarity. Yes. That's great clarity there. Yeah, because I think the person you're talking about who's a perfectionist, who it's working for, but they have anxiety, they're likely not to take the risks because they keep delivering and everyone expects that of them. So they don't have that growth mindset because they think it's working. I don't want to mess it up. I can't mess it up. So yes. I was at an ESPNW conference, so ESPN Women's Conference. And there's a couple thousand folks there and um of the couple thousand there was like i

don't know 25 men and um i was on a panel and one of the questions that was asked at the panel was uh dr gervais um congratulations and da da da so that you know it's a nice buttering up moment and then they say um they said uh you work with the best in the world is that right yeah many of them and um how do you do you work differently with that was a question do you work differently with best in the world females um as you do with best in the world men and i was like oh wow i'm like this is this is a moment know, that's about to happen. And it could go either direction, however I answer it. And so, yeah, this was a tough one. And so I'm going to turn the tables on you in that respect and knowing that it's complicated, but you might have greater clarity when you're mentoring executives and leaders in companies that are male versus female, do you mentor them differently? Is there something that I would miss or that many would miss on how to help female leaders and male leaders from your radical perch to know how to help them be better?

Yeah, that's a super interesting question because I know we hear so much in this day and age about the differences between men and women. And of course, there are differences just in your typical man and your typical woman, of course. So I'm thinking about the differences. On the one hand, I probably do mentor them differently. But I guess the bigger issue I've seen is it's more about how do you mentor each person differently? Because obviously, the same way when you're leading people, you've got to think, okay, but what's important to this one is not important to that one. So and the same thing happens as you're mentoring people. Some men may have certain personality traits and character traits that are more typical of women and vice versa. So it's more

about getting to know each person you're talking to and mentoring and understanding what's important to them. So that's, I guess, a part of my answer. And then I'm, you know, because I think I do see that over and over. There's some men that have more what you would expect from a woman, woman as far as personality traits and vice versa. That said, I will say when I go to these different events and conferences and some are co-ed and some are just women, there's a different vibe for sure. There's a different feeling. And at the women's ones, as a rule, and maybe it's because I'm dealing with business people, but the women tend to be more open, more vulnerable, more authentic, more empathetic not to say men are not that way and some men and certainly someone who does what you do for a living of course are likely to be that way but there is a difference and so it's good to understand who you're dealing with when you're mentoring them and

as the same way as when you're leading them. So I guess that's what I'd say there. Okay. I've got two questions. Um, and I want to thank you for your time. I mean, this is, this is awesome. So just two questions to, to round us, uh, to home base here is that, um, how do you think of the modern leader? If you could just in a couple sentences finish the thought, the modern leader is? strong and decisive, but also now more powerful, authentic, empathetic. And then, of course, all the things you need in any leader, like proactive curious um yes i don't want to give you too many adjectives because then but yeah no but those are the ones that come that come to the surface for you and i nod my head to all of them you know and i say yep um i'm right there with you and for this is where um i'd love to talk to you later about it, but where we're taking the Finding

Mastery, Inc., if you will, our consulting practice is helping world-class organizations invest in the psychology of excellence. And when you invest in those psychological practices, that whatever value or virtue that you would love your culture to actually be, you get just a little bit closer because people are now working from best science, best applied science of psychologies for them to be the very best. So they can be truly kind and empathetic and strong and powerful and decisive, as opposed to be anxious and frustrated and blaming and intolerant, which is what most cultures are. And so,

yeah, I love to hear you say that. Okay. So that being said, rounding home base here is that the subtitle of your book or the byline of your book is translating passion into purpose. And so first and foremost, like part A of that question is what is your purpose? Well, at this point, back then when I started, by the way, it was basically bringing the world together, helping the world communicate through language. Now it's breaking down boundaries and bringing people together and really achieving opportunity or creating opportunity and achieving equality for all. And, you know, I mean, basically, I think, you know, the world is not quite a fair place. I mean, I, as I said, I, yes, I may have started broke, but I, I was brought up by the right parents and the right zip code, perhaps the right, good enough race and religion. You know, I, I mean, who knows in this day and age, but the point is not everybody

has that and everybody deserves a fair shot. So at this point, yeah, I want to give people the tools. I want to help make a change and I want to give back and achieve equality for all. Very cool. And how do you help other people like get more clear on their purpose? Is that, is that a practice that is clear for you? Oh, yeah. Well, I do love that question. And I'm not sure I know exactly how to do it. But one thing I do say from my own experience is at first, and I mentioned this earlier, I got my MBA and I majored in finance and international business, not because finance was where my heart was. It wasn't. But I thought, that's what I

should do. That's practical. You know, I need to be able to pay the bills. I need to be successful. But I thought, I learned, you know, as I told you, after a very short period of time, that's not my passion. So if I can, somehow I'm going to find a way to take something that I know is my passion and find a way to go make money at it and have a career at it and change the world with it. And I just tell people all the time, yes, of course, you're inclined to do what you think you should do. But if you can find a way to do something you love and make a career out of it, go do it. Take the risk. Try it because you will be so much happier. So as far as how people can find it, it's things that they like doing,

that they liked focusing on growing up, talking about, spending their time on. Those are the things that are their passion, things that they want to talk about and do outside of work. So yes, I'm such a believer in that. And I think, shouldn't we all be doing that's, I'm such a believer in that. And I think, shouldn't we all be doing that? And I'm meeting more and more people now that are taking the risk and doing it, but we need even more of that.

Yeah. The, the, I think there's, um, I get confused on one part of that, which is that, so I call it the passion trap, which is like, if I could only do that thing that I'm passionate about more often, I could then live a passionate life or then I would be good. I think that like, if I could only play guitar more often, I love, I'm passionate about guitar.

And if I could be in the guitar industry or the music industry around guitars, then I'd be good. I feel like there's a little bit of a trapping in that. I'd love for you to open that up a bit. And the contrary approach would be, not contrary, but the counter approach would be that passion goes with me everywhere I go. When I'm reading a book, there's passion in that. When I'm reading a book, there's passion in

that. When I'm in this conversation, there's passion in this. When I'm brushing my teeth, there's a passion about that. As opposed to like, I just have to, only when I have my guitar in my hand. No, you're right. Yeah. So how do you think about that? No, I couldn't agree more with that. And first of all, I was fortunate because I happen to like languages better than finance. So how do you think about that? No, I couldn't agree more with that. And first of all, I was fortunate because I happen to like languages better than finance. So I was fortunate to have a career in languages, but related to what you're saying, more important than any of that is no matter what you're doing with your time, it's about finding the good in it. And even if you're in an industry that you don't like, you can be doing something in that industry that relates more to the things you like doing.

You know, whether it's the talking to people part or the learning new things part or that is one point. But then the other point that comes to mind related to what you're saying is it's about being a positive person. It's about finding the good in everything as opposed to, you know, it's a glass half full rather than glass half empty. I mean, you can keep seeing what's fun and what's gratifying about each day and each moment or you can not. And that's, I do think that's really a choice. I think it's really a choice. I think it's largely a choice. I haven't met a world's best that is fundamentally pessimistic. And optimism is a trainable skill.

So the reason we're pessimistic is because we're scared. We've been burned. We've been let down. We've been taught to protect ourselves before finding the good and because when you are vulnerable enough to spot the good you could be let down you could be hurt you could be you know naive and so it sounds like you're fundamentally optimistic yes I am I am fundamentally optimistic I have been my whole life when things have gone wrong I've I've tried to find the good in them. You know, I talk about in my book when I was 12 and I was in music class and there were actually 60 of us. There were two classes. This is in sixth grade.

And we were doing what I thought was the most fun thing ever. We were singing Joseph and his amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. And I loved singing and I loved music. And we were all doing this together. And I thought, this is my moment. I'm having the time of my life. And I was standing in the front row doing that because I was on the short side. And I remember the teacher started walking by each of us, standing in front of us, listening. And finally, I was at the end, she got to me and she said, this, this is it. And I thought, wow, this is going to be my moment. I'm going to get a solo. And instead she said, this is the problem. You are so off key. You are messing up this song. I'm sorry, but for the

rest of the school year, you're going to need to stay downstairs while most of us sing once a week and you'll just have to find something else to do. And that'll be that. And this is in front of 60 people. And what's so interesting to me about that is, first of all, I don't think that would happen now. I think schools are a little kinder now. But that was so character building for me, back to the adversity question. Because yeah, it felt like adversity every day when they all went up to music class, and I was down there by myself. But it also made me realize, okay, I'm going to do better. I'm going to be better than this. I'm going to prove everyone wrong. And then I ended up actually buying that album,

which was an album back then, a record and playing it and singing it. And then at my company, every time we had a party and it was feasible, I would have karaoke there and I'd be singing at the top of my lungs because I could. And I thought I might not have been able to do it in music class, but I'm going to do it now. And I think that relates to both adversity and being an optimist. Like, I am not going to let that bother me, or certainly not long term. I'm going to use that as inspiration. But, you know, as far as an optimist, I think, yeah, we all need to be optimists. And I think, you know, back to what you were saying, Mike, is it is coachable. And I was brought up

not to complain, and to to enjoy every moment and to see the good in things, and to try new things and to keep having fun and, you know, to just look for the good. And I think that is really the key to being happy, being successful and finding passion and living a passionate life. So couldn't agree with you more on all of that. What a great way to take us home. Liz, what a wonderful conversation. And it is so clear that you work from abundance and effort and high standards and there's a discipline and toughness and that you raise yourself up and you back yourself and you do the same for others. And you're pointing at passion and purpose. And so I want to say thank you. Congratulations on an incredible body of work.

And thank you for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today. Thanks so much to you, Mike. I've loved talking to you. All the best. And so where do you want to point people to be able to find your book? So it's on online, Amazon. It's on Amazon. It's on Barnes & Noble. It's on anywhere that you can buy it online or in stores, Barnes & Noble. And it's Dream Big and Win. As you said, translating passion into purpose and creating a billion dollar business. And I also have, I'm on my website, lizelting.com or social media. All right. Here we go. Appreciate you, Liz. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding

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