Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Unlock Your Excellence — Insights From Coach to Federer and Sampras | Paul Annacone

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Paul Annacone, legendary tennis coach to Roger Federer and Pete Sampras, offers his approach to collaborative coaching and a guide to playing, thinking, and being the best you can be.“How good are you on your average days? My mantra is: Every player has a handful of great matches during their career, and a handful of garbage. The rest is who you are. Show me who you are in the middle.”More on Paul:20-time Grand Slam winner, Roger Federer and 14-time Grand Slam winner, Pete Sampras, have at least one common thread in their tennis careers and he happens to be our guest for this episode.Paul Annacone is a former touring professional tennis player who began his coaching career in 1995 working with the legendary Pete Sampras. Since then, he’s become one of the most respected mentors in the game, coaching Federer, Tim Henman, Sloane Stephens and, currently, one of USA’s top-ranked players, Taylor Fritz.Paul’s book Coaching For Life: A Guide to Playing, Thinking, and Being the Best You Can Be, is an autobiographical exploration of his experience inside the sport of tennis; more importantly, it’s a compilation of the lessons he learned along the way that are applicable to our own day-to-day life. His front row seat to arguably the best in his game has given Paul a true understanding of some of the guiding principles that live in the heart, and the head, of a true champion. This is an incredible conversation. Paul and I dive into the interesting transition from player to coach, the importance of knowing who you are, what he thinks about failure, and what he believes separates the greats from everyone else._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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during your career, handful of garbage. The rest is who you are. Show me who you are in the middle. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By training, training a high-performance psychologist. I'm really excited to welcome Paul Anacone to the pod for this week's conversation. 20-time Grand Slam winner Roger Federer and 14-time Grand Slam winner Pete Sampras have at least one common thread in their tennis careers, and he happens to be our guest on

today's episode. Paul is a former touring professional player who began his coaching career in 1995, working with the legendary Pete Sampras. And since then, he's become one of the most respected mentors in the game, coaching Federer, Tim Henman, Sloane Stevens, and currently one of USA's top-ranked players, Taylor Fritz. Calling coaching one of the most enlightening things he's experienced, Paul has spent 15 years writing his book, Coaching for Life, a guide to playing, thinking, and being the best you can be. In the book, which is so good and so rich, he shares how the process-oriented journey that he applies to the game of tennis can serve as a great metaphor for approaching life, period. You also might recognize him from the new Netflix series,

Breakpoint, where his insights are an integral part of the understanding of what makes great players great. Whether you're a parent, a business pro, an athlete, a knowledge seeker, Coach Anacone speaks for all of us on the cutting edge of our chosen game, whatever that game may be. His front row seat to arguably the best in tennis has given Paul a true understanding of some of the guiding principles that live in the heart and live in the head of a true champion. I can't wait for you to hear Paul speak to the lessons he's learned along his extraordinary path, the importance of identity and knowing who you are and what he thinks about failure and what he believes separates the greats from everyone else. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation with the remarkable Paul Anacone.

Paul, it is great to be with you today. So thank you for coming in. Thanks for the patience. It's taken a while, but luckily you got a great team and you at the helm that were patient enough to get me here. I appreciate it. I've been looking for this for a long time. Me too. Yeah. Between our schedules, it's been, this is a reward worth waiting for. So stoked on it. Let's do it. I'm excited. So you've got an incredible career in tennis as a player and as a coach. I'm curious if we can start with just with this big history you've got what

are some stories that come to mind some lessons learned some experiences that you've had that are top of mind top of you know memory for you when you think about and you look back on your career and all the things that you've done experienced I think one of the hardest things for me Michael was actually the initiation to go from a player to a coach because as a player you feel like the perception is you have so much control over so many things when in actuality you and I both know that that's not the case you have control over many things but when you become a coach you have control over even less things and so to to be able to transition into a stand

and try to get your point across and in in an individual sport, I think it's most challenging because I think if you want to be good at it, you have to figure out, number one, how to get buy-in from the player, which means how do I say what I need to say, but the way they'll receive it. And I think that's a little different than team sports. I think a lot of teams kind of go into the coach's philosophy. You know, you go into the philosophy of the New York Knicks coach or Coach Carroll or somebody else in the NBA or NHL. That's the philosophy you mold to as a tennis coach. It's one-on-one. So you tend to have to figure out the person and then get the message across that way. So to transition from a player where it was about me, my, I, I, me, to then have to figure out these other things, that was interesting. It was a

great learning process for me. I think one of the most interesting stories of my career in terms of understanding the differentiation of those things was when I was coaching Pete Sampras early on, I was really big on trying to get him all the right details, all the analytics, all the metrics, all the things that he needed to be successful. And he was playing someone in Rome in the Italian Open that he had lost, I'm sorry, that he had beaten the previous summer. And I said, listen, when you play today on all the big points, literally 12 out of 13 big points, here are the locations that he served to. And it was all the same spot in the boxes. So he went out and played the match, lost the match. And the guy served exactly opposite of where I told him. I was like, well, that was a great coaching career. That's

going to be fun. And I thought, okay, what's Pete going to say? And he came off the court and I said, look, rough match. And I said, I'm sorry. He goes, about what? And I said, I told you. And he said, look, Paul, he goes, these are great world-class players. They can change things. You know, you're there to tell me what you see, what happened in the past, what you think.

But I better be able to figure it out on the court today and tomorrow and the next day. And I wasn't quite able to do that. So from that day on, I really understood how great players tend to be able to take responsibility and accountability for things. Sure, they have people around them that help guide, give them advice. But it's one of the most admirable things I've found about the people that I've coached. I've been very fortunate. Yeah, they want advice, but also they're like, I've got to figure it out. And to me, I think that's a unique

trait in people who tend to achieve really high things. Because as you know, it's not always real easy to hold that mirror up and go, okay, I'm supposed to be able to do this. I've got to figure this out. What's my role? How do I do it? Instead of you did that wrong. She did this wrong. The dog ate my homework, whatever it is. So I've been very lucky because my folks that I've been around all have done that very well. Really cool. So there's a lot in here I want to unpack. The first thing is that when you talked about transition, it was almost like a tell that you provided, which is as an athlete, it was me, me, me, you were saying. And then as a coach, it was not about me, me, me, it was about the other person, which feels like a required transition. Okay. Because the research that I've done on what makes a great coach. And so we do this exercise below the line, above the line. We've asked thousands of people this, what makes, what are the characteristics and qualities of coaches that are above the line that help me

or the person that we're asking get better and feel really good about myself. They're above the line in some kind of way. And what's below the line characteristics, what keeps coming up below the line is that they were about it for themselves more than they were about it for me. So that transition for you going from me, me, me to let me focus on the other person. I bet that was hard. And the follow on, so that's the statement kind of context, but the follow on question is, does it take a me, me, me focus to be really good? Well, the first part of that, I think I was fortunate. Both of my parents were educators. My father was a superintendent of schools for 35 years and was a professor and a teacher. And my mother was a guidance counselor. So they taught their whole lives. So I've been in that environment

a lot. And two of my nearest, actually three of my nearest and dearest and all mentors were my brother, who's a coach and teacher who coached me for eight years on the tour, the late great Nick Boletari, who I spent my formative years with from kind of 13 to 18. And my college coach who was at Boletari's when I was there, Mike DePalmer Sr., who passed away a few years ago. So all those three people and my parents were all teachers. And I was around them and they were very close to me my whole life. So I think I absorbed maybe subconsciously a lot of stuff that triggered me to do well. And as I've gotten older, I think I've processed all that and hopefully taken some of it to heart, which enabled me to figure things out.

And the last part of that equation is when I became Pete Sampras's coach, it was in a very sad situation. His current coach at the time, Tim Gullickson, had been diagnosed with brain cancer and brain tumors. And the idea was for me to help Pete because I was just retiring until Tim got healthy. Tim didn't get healthy, but for while he was alive still for those 15 more months, he was mentoring me the whole time. So he was at home fighting and I'm calling him, you know, a few times a week about what's happening, what to expect, how to deal with this, what are Pete's trades, blah, blah, blah. And he's educating me. And also Pete at 23 years of age was one of the

most self-aware people I've ever met in my life. And so I had all the great tools to help that transition, make it more kind of easily done. So that helped me a lot. That's the long-winded answer to that part of your first statement. And the second part is, does it have to be me, me, me? I think it does to a degree. But I've also found, again, and this has been my experience, that people that I've been around aren't – they're aware of myopic thought and tunnel vision. But they tend to not be so far in the deep end of that that they don't get life. All of the people that I've been around get life. You know, Roger Federer is one of the most expansive understanding people on the planet.

You know, I've never been around someone that's that accomplished, but also that open and that aware and that able to sit at a table and take constructive criticism in a way that doesn't make his heart beat one more time per minute because Pulse doesn't ever get up about anything. You know, Pete totally understood what makes him work. But he also understands that's totally different than how Andre Agassi needs to work and how he understood himself. So I don't think you have to be totally tunnel vision and all about you, but you have to know yourself. And my biggest philosophy about maximizing your potential for

anything you do in life, and you would know this better than I, is you have to know your identity. You have to know who you are, what makes you work, why it makes you work, and how to stay within those parameters so that you can set up a structure that gives you the best chance to maximize whatever your goals are, both quantitative and qualitative. So I've been really fortunate that I've had a lot of people teach me along the way. And one of the reasons I still do it is I love to learn and love to hear and still love to think and teach. Coach. Episode over. Like really, there it is. Yeah. I mean, that's it in a nutshell for me. Yeah. I see you right now. That's really cool. People ask me oftentimes about Roger. And one of the most amazing things about Roger is

what makes him so interesting is he's so interested. You know, I'll give you a little anecdotal story about Roger Federer. He just got signed. We're in Toronto at the Canadian Open. And I've just been with him for about two months now. And he says, listen, tomorrow morning when we go to practice, this is two days before the tournament, I want, you know, can you and Severin get an extra car so you go behind me? And I was like, sure, why? And he goes, because I've got to deal with this little coffee company that's, and the CEO and his son are going to be here and I want to host them. I said, what do you mean host them? And he goes, I want them to see what my day is like. And this is the day before the tournament. And I said, sure. So we meet the folks, the man and his father. And Roger says,

make sure you bring a couple chairs out on the practice court, blah, blah, blah. So we follow and we go through that. And then I go through the day. Roger brings him out on the court, talks to the kid, takes them to lunch in the player lounge, takes them to his media day. And then we get back to the hotel. And I said, you know, do you want to do something? He goes, I'm going to take those guys out to dinner if that's okay. I said, sure. So I go back to my room and I call his agent and I go, Tony, I said, you've done an amazing job. He had no agent.

His agent was when I go, he goes, I've done an amazing job with what? And I said, with Roger. And he goes, well, why? And I said, because the juror, the coffee person is here, the CEO and his son and all the stuff you set up. He goes, oh, I had no idea he was in town. So Roger just did all that himself. That's one of about 40 occurrences with my four years where Roger, because he's interested. He's interested in the man, the man's business, the man's son, what the son does, you know, school. And I think if you're interesting,

it tends to be because you're interested. And he's one of the most unique people about that. So again, all of these fortunate situations for me, I've just tried to be a sponge and learn. And I think that's why I'm still interested in kind of human nature and what makes people successful and how to maximize their talent. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms. One thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. There's a quote I want to read you. Maybe we'll just start this way. It was from one of our previous guests, George Mumford. And he says, you need to know yourself to be yourself, to express yourself, to share yourself. And it feels like to me that the best coaches, the best athletes know themselves so they can, in a coaching example, can serve themselves well. And from an athlete perspective from tennis, so that they can do their thing well. Would you co-sign that and agree with it? Or would you say, yeah, but there's something else in here that's missing? That's been my experience. I would agree with it. Look, you know, the old funny cliche is

denial's not a river in Egypt, is it? You know, denial's definitely not a river in Egypt. Unless you can fully understand your strengths and your weaknesses, I think you're limited. And I think sometimes great athletes, most of them I've been around, are pretty stubborn. So sometimes you have to be able to show them in a constructively critical way some of the foibles. And everyone I've been around, I've been fortunate enough that they absorb it. You don't slap them in the face with it, but you get them to understand. And those foibles may – and Pete was, for me, the master at this. He was like, look, I need things really simple.

I can't have 30 people around me. I don't – and everyone always compared he and Andre and was so interesting because Agassi was – you remember his old cliche with Canon, I think image is everything. And Pete was not that. Pete said to me when I started work with him at 23, I won the US Open at 19. It took me two years to figure out what I wanted to do after that. And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, I won the US Open. I'm a small town kid, you know, kind of Greek family, middle of the rung, level of income.

I've got a brother, a couple sisters. I just and I get hot for two weeks and win the US Open and I'm 19 and I'm on David Letterman. And I'm like, what is going on? And I said, so what happened? He goes, I spun. I spun because it took me a while to go, okay, why do I want to play? I can make five, 10 million a year and be four to 12 in the world or whatever. And I said, but I realized who I am. I realized that the only reason I wanted to play is I want to win as many major titles as I can win.

That was it. That is the top of the pyramid of my goals. So everything I do is going to be about that. So it took him two years and that was at 23. So that was at 19. So by the almost when he was 22, he kind of figured out after his initial success, who he was, what he wanted to do. And within that framework, how do I do that? And that means

saying no to a lot of commercial opportunities. That means keeping things in his micro focus. That means keeping the people around him close to the vest, not having a, you know, a big crew. Now, conversely, Roger's the exact opposite. And this was really hard for me because I got to Roger and he was a little bit older, late 20s. And Tim Henman was like this as well. They love life. They love Roger's going to museums the day of matches at the U.S. Open in New York. He's taking his wife and kids to museums in the morning and he's got a match at 7.30 at night. And I'm like, dude, what's this? And it took me a while to realize that those are the things that made his life worth living. I remember the first time he went and I think played in Turkey. And I was like, what are you going to Turkey for? He goes,

I've never been. It's going to be so amazing. I've never seen. You know, so that's Roger. That's who he is. So as a coach, I'm starting to understand who these people are and what makes them tick. Now, from a performance point of view, how do I manage all of those idiosyncrasies? Like, great, Roger, but don't get exhausted during the day before you go and play at night. Okay, Pete, I know you don't want to do this, but really we should go meet the Movado people this afternoon because, you know, so I've got to kind of be the balance and equalizer of it. But behind all that is they have to be true to who they are. And I found that those two in particular were so true to who they are. And that's one of the reasons why Roger played basically

until he's almost 40. And that's also why Pete Sampras stopped when he was 31. He was exhausted. Pete didn't want to be a celebrity. He didn't want to sign autographs and be on lettermen, you know, have entourages. He didn't want to do that. And he was emotionally tired. So that's why Pete stopped. He was emotionally tired. So those things all tie into identity, right? And as a coach, I think you either have to help define the identity for the player as they're younger and evolving or accept it and then manage that identity to figure out what components of that you need to work on to help them maximize their skill set. And Taylor Fritz is very different. Taylor's now 25 years old and I've been helping

him since he was 20, but he's a younger 25. He's very myopic. He's now 25 years old and I've been helping him since he was 20, but he's a younger 25. He's very myopic. He's one of the best competitors I've ever seen in my life and he needs more of a Sampras focus on what he's doing, but he does like to go to dinner with his girlfriends. He likes to play with his girlfriend. He likes to play video games. There's certain things he likes to do, but he's kind of a mixture in between. So it's evolving and changing. So my philosophy about coaching and helping him has to evolve and change based on kind of the benchmarks of the fundamental beliefs and that coaching philosophy. So you have to be a little bit on your toes. And luckily for me, there's a guy named Michael Russell who travels with Taylor

full-time who's awesome. And Michael's with him basically 30 weeks a year. And I get to talk to him all the time. And I deal with Taylor when he's in town and at a handful of tournaments otherwise. So I've got a really nice team there. Roger and Pete, I was kind of the focal point there. Roger, I did have Severin Lutie who knew him better than everybody and Severn helped make the transition to my role really, really easily. So I guess in a really long-winded rambling way, it's kind of personality and skill set management, isn't it? I mean, I think that's what it is. And then my job is which areas are most important to help them maximize whatever their goals may be. And everyone's goals are different,

right? My goals for what Pete should do. I mean, if I were Pete, I would have loved to him play five more years and get more majors. You know, if I were Roger, I would be like, Roger, why did you play so many of the small tournaments at the end of your career? They don't mean anything. Well, he needs to play them because he loves the cities and he loves to go to these places. But to me, it didn't make sense. So you have to be able to navigate that stuff. And like I said, you continually learn. You continually learn. I think that we're talking about identity. We're talking about first principles, like the first principles and the values that are guiding and shaping thoughts, words, and actions, getting those to a place

of clarity makes this complicated thing of life a little bit simpler because it does create some guardrails for thinking well, choosing words well, and actions that align those two. And so it doesn't sound like you were helping them get to their philosophy. It sounds like you are observing so that you could understand their philosophy, so that you could understand their identity. Identity and philosophy are different. So philosophy is like an operating system of first principles, and identity is the conceptualization of who am I. And so it's different. And it sounds like you were observing

those, not necessarily shaping them. So you're a bit like the hand that leaves the pond without a trace, right? You're making an impact. You're in there working, but you're not saying, okay, here's your philosophy, kid, or 20-some-year-old. Like, okay, is that part right? Yeah, yeah. But to me, that's the sad part of tennis, coaching at my level, is that the great developmental coaches who help form what you're talking about get very little credit. I mean, without Robert Lansdorp, Pete wouldn't have been who he was. Who is Robert? in who he was, you know, Robert Lansdorp is a great coach from Rolling Hills and Palace Verde. He's a coach, Lindsay Davenport, Sampras, Maria Sharapova. Yeah. And he's on the club. Yeah. He did all of the developmental stroke production, discipline, repetition. The foundation is laid

and Baloteri was good at this too. And then I'm the guy who has, you know, a pretty molded sculpture, right? You know, I'm not saying, Pete, you should want to be great. You should want to do, you know, my first question is, and my first question to all the players when I talk, what do you want to do? Why are you playing? What are your goals, both result-wise and process-wise? Tell me what you want. Not, I'm going to tell you what you want. Larry Brown, the great basketball coach, once told me on a driving range when we're hitting golf balls, it was really interesting. I asked him about effort. He goes, the first thing I tell my teams is I don't coach effort. I expect you're

going to do everything you can do to maximize your potential. Well, if you go into it thinking that, then you have a pretty good chalkboard. And I got most of the players when they knew what they wanted to do. So for me, all of that formulating process that you talked about with identity, et cetera, and philosophy was kind of molded when I got them. Is that fair to say? Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think I've observed and been part of one of the crises that people run into is when they've had these ambitious goals or whatever, they meet them, but they're not clear on what got them there or even who they are or even where they want to really go. Now what? Yeah, now what so you're doing some of that first principle work is

so foundational but you've observed it from the greats did you have it when you were competing did you have your first principles down wired clear you know i took it in kind as a staircase you know and that's kind of how i look at it with with all players it's like you take it in segments or compartments you know first i wanted to get out on the pro tour. Then I wanted to make top 100. Then I wanted to make top 50. Then I wanted to make top 15. Then I wanted to make top, you know what I mean?

I took it like that. I very rarely said I want to win this tournament. I very rarely, you know, every tournament I play, I want to win. That's right. But guess what? I mean, that's one of my first things I say when I talk to parents. So does your competitor, by the way. Yeah, exactly.

That's their goal too. It's like, it's not even useful. Yeah. We had a great conference call last week with a bunch of parents in Southern Cal. I do. Luckily I'm fortunate enough to do some work with Southern Cal tennis association. I get to talk to some of the parents and I said, if your child is merely focused on winning the tournament every week, that is a recipe for disaster. I said, I've been around for a long time. Every tournament I've been to, every person leaves pissed off except one every week. That's not great odds. So you better find other ways to get fulfillment. Of course you want to win every tournament. If you don't, then what are you doing there? Yeah. It's the drill down underneath of it. Like what? So yes, check, you know? And yes,

like for the greats, like it's a prerequisite to work hard. I, I don't understand motivation as well as people might think. And I don't know how to work with somebody who is a motivated or not motivated. I do understand how people are motivated towards something that is not fueling them properly.

Like they're motivated by the win, the outcome as opposed to something else. And the reason the outcome in my mind, I'd love to hear your take on it. It's cool, but it's not, there's no real dynamic energies because you just gave all of your leverage away, much of your leverage, I'm being dramatic here, to something that you can't control. And so I find that there's so much more dynamic power when you're focusing on what's actually in your control and you're working to unlock dimensionality there. Like it's, it feels to me like it's a completely different game for myself and others.

I agree with you about not being able to kind of coach motivation. You know, it's like, do you, how do I make them want it more? How do I, you know, and part of the problem is that I think a lot of individual athletes I've been around, they say they want certain things. But they don't get back to the point that I talked about with Sampras, which means you accept the responsibility and accountability of your role in trying to achieve those things, whether they're result-oriented or process-oriented. They're kind of kidding themselves a little bit. They don't mean to be, but I think that there's been stuff that's been brought up through their upbringing that have become defense mechanisms. I don't have the science behind it. I'm just saying they're either defense mechanisms or they can't fully grasp it because they're

trying to hide. I don't know why, but if I't – if I have to take someone and convince them to be motivated, I'm not the guy. I mean I could help a little bit. Like I think I helped Pete make a resurgence at the end of his career, but I knew what his motivations were for eight years before that. So it was easy. So I think that's part of your identity and I mean I would ask you, what do you do with someone that says, this is what I want. I really want this, but they don't really accept what that means. So they're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

Yeah. But I find, Michael, that some people don't even know that they're not walking. They think they are. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's jump right back into the conversation. I'll go back to a first principle that you shared earlier, which is the honesty that you've observed. And so in many cases, I find that my job is to help people become incredibly honest with themselves and what the greats do, what the extraordinaries do,

they're already on that path and they're helping everyone around them also be honest. And so it's going deep to get to the honest truth of something. And that's kind of the process to help people with. And so talking the talk, but not walking the walk, it's helping people feel that dissonance. And then when they feel that pain and they go, wait a minute, what's actually happening here? Interesting. This is why it's not working out for me. Is that different in your experience with team oriented people people versus individual-oriented people? I'd love if you'd say contrary to it, but it's something that's been a first principle for me, which is nobody does it alone. Certainly nobody does the extraordinary alone. There is always a team experience.

And so would you co-sign that? I would. Yeah. I would to different levels. I think Pete was the most individual person I've ever met. But even with him, he's told me many times, and even his induction to the Hall of Fame gave me a ton of credit, which made me almost uncomfortable because I know it's mostly that person. But sure, I do believe they need the support. It's a relationship-based experience, life is. It's your relationship with yourself,

with others, with nature, your relationship with the outcome, your relationship with experience. It is the relationship. And so people are part of that. And so that's why, so individual versus team. In team settings, there is somebody that's on the playing field that can have your back. They can help you out when you make a mistake. Individual athletes, even dyads like two-on-two volleyball, beach volleyball, tennis as well, like doubles, that it still can feel like I just want to hide. And in boxing and UFC and gymnastics and golf and tennis, their traditional stick and ball sports, their individual all included, there's nowhere to go. And so that's a difference. Same with surfing, same with... It's interesting, isn't it? Because I've had a lot of debates and conversations about this when you're trying to – people love numbers and this person's the

best at that. And I always say it's really difficult to compare, number one, eras because everything's very different in every era. And I don't believe in greatest of all time. You could say most accomplished of all time. Oh, that's interesting. I don't believe in greatest of all time myself because I just don't believe in it because – Stay here. This is cool. What do you mean? Because every great of their era, if you put them in a different era, for me, in tennis in particular, if they had all of the science benefits, if they had everything, they would

have been great because they have the inherent – I have a little unscientific model that I have in my heart that I make up an athlete and a human being by, the head, heart, and talent. Head is your ability to think through adversity, think through strategy, all the what-ifs, all the things that are going on in the heat of the moment. That's the head, your head. How good is your head on a scale of 1 to 10? Then heart is a very simple one. It's how well can you unconditionally compete no matter what. Broken foot, your dad just died, dog ate your heart, doesn't matter. That's your heart, 1 to 10. And the last part is just the physical attributes

that come into play. You know, racket skills, athleticism. So those three components in me make up the player and the human being. And so I think all the greats of their own era are really high in those three. So if you put them with all the benefits of the next era, they're probably going to be – I don't know. They'll be close. They'll be in the conversation. Will they be as good? I don't know. And if you say no, then, okay, try to tell me why they wouldn't be as good.

That's cool. Like Bjorn Borg retired when he was 26, won five French Opens in a row, 26. And won Wimbledon in French, I think, three times in a row back to back, which no one's ever done. So Borg retired at 26. How many French Opens would he have if he had played as long as Rafa and Roger? I could easily make the argument he too would have 10 to 15 French Opens like Rafa. It was Rafa before Rafa and Roger. I could easily make the argument he too would have 10 to 15 French Opens like Rafa. It was Rafa before Rafa. There's sophistication in how you're suggesting this, right? There's dimensionality on those three variables and there's dimensions with each of them. I want to

stick on the mind one for just a second. And you're saying that all the benefits of science and like athletes are playing longer now because of the advances in sports science and recovery modalities and how well we're dealing with stress. Like we used to break athletes. We used to basically swallow, tough it up. Yeah. Right. Water. What do you need water for? You know, another set and like they were just breaking. And there's a, something about the U S system where we have the luxury of many bodies. And so it's next person up, which is really sloppy. It's a very unsophisticated approach to coaching special talent. Next person up. And then once we start to recognize like, wait, hold on, this is an incredible species.

This is an incredible human here. Let's really support and properly challenge, um, the person that we've now seen athletes competing into their, into the late forties. It's, it is pretty incredible. So, um, I love, I love your point. Yeah. Look, there's no, it's just my, my human gauge. No, but I think there is science that would sit underneath of it. And then I want to just double click on the mind piece, which is you're talking about thinking clearly under pressure, like teacup, right? Like that, your ability to analyze and think clearly and creative problem solving when

they're in a high heat, high stress type of experience. Okay. So when I think of the mental part, I think of skills. Okay. I think of underneath of that principles that are guiding. And I think of best practices to be able to develop those mental skills. Okay. I think of underneath of that principles that are guiding. And I think of best practices to be able to develop those mental skills, not physical or technical skills, but the mental. And then, so I would almost bifurcate the mental part, which is like when you have those three things that I just talked about, that frees up the ability to teacup, think clearly under

pressure. Right. And at some level, if you have those skills in such a radical way and you have that big heart, the big motor to compete, uncommonly so, and then underneath that you've got all of the physical and technical skills, that you're able to actually dissolve pressure. And I'd love to, do you agree with that bifurcation on the mental side? I do. I just don't know the science behind it, but I do. I think different people do it different ways, and I don't know the science. What mental skills are important for you? Well, for me, the mental skill is, and this is what I tell, you know, actually I had a

long conversation with Taylor Fritz this morning who lost a really tough match yesterday. He had three match points and lost in Madrid and he got nervous. And he got nervous before or he got in that moment, in that moment when he was about to win. And so, and this has been an ongoing conversation with a lot of my athletes. I'm, you know, I'll give you a great example. Pete Sampras, I was riding my Peloton last year and they were doing a rerun of when he broke the then all-time record of majors one by winning Wimbledon in 2000. He lost the first set in the finals to Pat Rafter, was down 4-1 in the tiebreak in the second set. Could have gone down two sets to love. Somehow gets to 6-5 serving in the tiebreak to get to seven to win that tiebreak.

It goes from 4-1 down to 6-5 to get to a set all. At 6-5, Pete hits a kick second serve with a lot of spin, a lot of safety, a lot of margin. And I had totally forgotten about that. And I was like, dude, as a biggest cannon, totally trusted his spot hitting. Why would he have hit a set? So I pick up the phone or I text him on my bike and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm watching blah, blah, blah. I said, I forgot you hit a kick serve to go two sets. All he won the point. Wait, what's a kick serve? Kick serve is spin with a lot of top spin on it. It goes high over the net. It gives you a lot more margin. It's like a second serve first. Okay. So he played it safe.

He played it safe. And with margin and it's, he had one of the best second serves of all time. And yeah. It's tight. Yeah. And so I was like, dude, I forgot. I remember you won that point. But I forgot. Why did you hit a kick, sick, and serve?

He wrote, because I was damn nervous. That's why. Yeah, there it is. So I used that message to Taylor saying, Taylor, everybody gets nervous. So when you're in that moment, you're no different. You got to, this is normal. This is something you, this is normal. So what do you do now? Yeah. Let's stay here for a minute because I haven't met an athlete that's choked. And that's because they don't.

You haven't or have? Have not. Because nobody eats on the field of play. Yeah. Me too. That's my philosophy as well. That's so bad. No, I love it though. You're as corny as I am. I don't believe it. Everyone gets nervous. Yeah. So, but no, I'm being like, I gotcha. Yes. But, but what happens is I think all of us hopefully have been right at the edge of our skis where it feels like we're going too fast. It's too steep. I don't know if I can handle

it. You know, so there is that experience and that's how you actually getting into those moments is what creates unlocks. It creates the ability to have an insight about honesty because those moments there is nowhere to hide. And so there's a great teacher in those moments. Okay. So my point is when you're in that experience, it's, and your heart's pounding, your breathing is changing.

That's the thing. We call it nerves, but really it's a physiological change that is sudden and feels uncomfortable. Welcome to life. Welcome to life. And if in that moment you can go, right, okay, I'm here. And you've got that heightened awareness and then the mental skill to be able to navigate those moments, we can downregulate just enough, but we never get fully rid of the nerves, you know, because it takes a while to work through that process. Okay. So my point is when any of us, them included, in that moment, it comes from an interpretation. This is where it starts is that I've just done this quick calculus. This is the conditions that I'm operating in right now. Ooh, this is where it starts is that i've just done this quick calculus this is the conditions that i'm operating in right now oh this is big and the quick calculus mapped up against my internal

skills to meet the demands of this moment and if the moment feels bigger than the skills we got some challenges like we got we got a real challenge inside if we feel like we can meet that moment if our internal skills are like listen listen, I got a great cannon. I'm gonna drop this thing in the back corner, putting speed on it. I'm gonna blow him out of this match right here, right now. Let's go. Hold on.

Stay with it. Take a breath here now. All I need to do is get a good toss and it's over. Okay, so that's how you would coach somebody, right? Something along those lines. As opposed to, oh man, I just got to get it in. Because the body is speaking so loudly with the handshaking, with the breathing changing, that when our body and brain are speaking so loudly, if we don't have the requisite necessary mental skills to manage that moment, the brain's going to win.

The moment feels too big. You know, and the odd thing is that there's no like part in the brain's going to win. The moment feels too big, you know? And the odd thing is that there's no like part in the brain that says, this is the ideal part for tennis excellence. There's no redundancy like that. There's no, I'm sorry, there's no specific part of tennis excellence because what's happening is the nerves are coming because we're triggering that ancient part of our brain that says, this is dangerous. So there likely is a saber tooth in the environment. No, I think that's awesome.

And that's why, you know, I don't have the educational background with the science. But I mean, that's one of the things that I talk about to a lot of young players and also to Taylor too, in particular. Now I'm like, you know, you practice unbelievably hard, um, not to play perfectly. And by practicing hard, I mean, all areas, head, heart, talent, eat everything. You, you don't practice hard to play perfectly. You practice hard and more importantly, smart that no matter how you play, you react unbelievably well in that moment. So don't, you know, when you win two and two and you play great, I'm happy for you, but that's easy. I don't, I don't care. Show me what

you do when your ankle sprain, show me what you do when you broke up with your girlfriend, show me what you do when they lost your, and that, that to me is what I have found personally and experientially what's so amazing about great players. I mean, I cannot believe some of the stuff that I've seen Sampras accomplish and Federer accomplish with unbelievable adversity. You know, when Pete did break the record for winning Wimbledon, he had – he never – you play every other day to major. In the second round, he hurt his Achilles or the front of his shin, and he literally couldn't walk.

So he never hit on an off day in the majors. He never warmed up for his next match until he walked on the court to play that next match. He got four injections right before the match each time he played. And that's how he went through and won his 13th major Wimbledon. Committed. The day before the finals, one day he tried to hit, we hit for 15 minutes.

He said, I can't hit, I can't stand up. We walked off the court every other day. So for five matches, he would play a match, do his press conference. The drug would wear off. I would sit in his house, literally sit in his house with him for 30 hours until the

next time he played. We'd go down to the courts, go right into the room half an hour before he's about to walk around the court for injections and play and then leave. So where did that come from for him? I have no idea. I mean, that, that, is that inspiring to you? That's so inspiring. I mean, that's amazing that he was able to do that. I saw Federer did the same thing at Wimbledon when he won in 2012, he threw his back out in like the second round and he was down two sets to love or two sets to one. There was a rain delay. We went in the locker room and he said, oh man, I really screwed up my back and his physio. And I said, can you keep playing? He said, yeah, you can try. But, you know, there's no herniated disc. It's just all muscle spasm now. So he plays that match,

somehow wins in five sets, comes off the court, goes in the locker room, and he goes, it's just killing me. Doesn't hit the next day. I said, how is it feeling? He's, Roger's the, probably the most optimistic person I've ever met in my life. Oh, so he's fundamentally. Roger is the most optimistic, appreciative. And so the next day he's like, oh, it feels a little better. You know, it's nothing. If you want to hit, he goes, no, I can't hit, but it feels a little better. And so then the next day he's about to play a match. I said, you know, do you want to warm up? He goes, I don't know if I can warm up. It's not feeling that good, but it's better. It's getting better. So he doesn't warm up. Next thing you know, he's in the finals and he wins the tournament. Gets a little better each day.

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I don't think it's going to work out. Optimism is, I think it's about to break. It's about some good's about to take place. Like it's fundamentally that the future is going to work out. It's the way that we use our imagination to imagine our future state, a future experience later. Left unchecked, it makes sense why the brain would want to create images of disaster to ready yourself. Just in case. Yeah, just in case. But the disciplined mind, the mind that is very clear about what they would like to see

happen, it's like they're in the most beautiful movie they can imagine. when it's hard i want to tell you a story and then get to it like a thing is that so it was a super bowl night i've never talked about this story and i won't name the person super bowl night we were going into um uh so it was a saturday before the sunday and one of our quote unquote star athletes couldn't move, banged up. And he's like, whatever it takes. So he kept it out of media. Nobody was aware of this, but he couldn't move. It was one of, you know, on a, on an NFL franchise, there's like, uh, between four and six that

like are at the epicenter of, you know, if you're in a Superbowl can anyway. So he was one of them. And when one goes down, it's a problem. And so he, whatever it takes, 24 hour around the clock, zero hours of sleep. The night before the competition, we had ice, heat, stim on the clock. We had experimental methodologies that he was doing.

I did healing imagery for 20 minutes and then came back at like 2.30 in the morning. We did performance imagery. It was like, and then at four in the morning, we did another healing imagery. Like he didn't sleep all night. It's amazing, huh? And so I share that with you. He's one of the best to ever play the game.

And I share that with you because we don't talk about this enough that it comes from a place. And for him, it was a healthy place. He didn't want to let his people down. And that might not sound healthy, but he was a great teammate. This wasn't about, this is my chance. There's some of that, but it was like, I'm part of a team and I want to be able to show up right for my teammates. And I think, so it was healthy, but I think for many people, it is like, it's not that level that we're talking about is not healthy. It's unreasonable. It's insane. It's obsessive. It's narcissistic. There's something unhealthy about it. Do you agree with that? I do a hundred percent. I mean, that's,

yeah, Pete was like that. I mean, we we were in these we were in little hamlets in in england getting acupuncture to try to fit i mean he had flew someone out we couldn't figure anything out he couldn't literally could not walk the day between matches did not get off the couch except to go to the bathroom so why do why do why would anybody do this i i mean why would pete do this well because he was on the brink of history and and he's the one person i'm inspired by it this might this might be this is probably maybe it's overly dramatic but the best stories are he yeah he might be the best athlete i've ever been around that is able to put the result first. This is, I want to win, like I told you about at the beginning, I want to win as many majors as I can and be able to

handle victory and defeat without fear. Sounds easy. I talked to a college basketball coach about this once. They said, what have you found about the best? I said, they aren't afraid to win and they're not afraid to lose. And that sounds, if you just think, oh, I'm like that. Yeah. You walk onto Wimbledon center court under the archway with 14,000 people there by yourself playing a final and 8 million people watching and hear the umpire say, players ready, play, and hear dead silence. That's my first reality of what deafening silence is. Now you do that and tell me you're not afraid. And then do it in the semifinals or the finals. There are not many human beings that can do that and still succeed and still excel with what their skill sets are. Wait, hold on.

That's what you're talking about? That's the honesty of those moments. You said it so much more eloquently. That's the honesty that those moments provide. Because when you're honest with yourself about that experience, you know you need to work on breathing. You need to work on your philosophy for like there's things like i need to be great to my because all i hear is my heartbeat right and my my talk track i know let me give you one personal experience of that and the reason i can relate to it so much is i

never achieve what those guys did you know i played and i got to be top 15 in years yeah i got to be top 15 in the world okay so I was pretty good, but not like them. But the first time I went on to center court at Wimbledon, I'm playing Jimmy Connors in the quarterfinals. And I just come out of college. I qualified. And here's this young American kid that's getting to the quarterfinals playing Jimmy Connors. And I meet him for the first time in this little private white room we used to have where you wait before you walk on center court. and we shake hands and we're walking on the court. Right when you walk on the court, I don't know if you've ever seen, there's an archway, the Kipling quote of, if you see triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters, that's right where you walk on. So we walk on the

court and we're warming up and we're hitting and I'm like, oh, this is good. And I'm like, I can win this. I can actually beat Jimmy Connors. I can do this. And it's loud and there's buzzing and there's all this stuff. And then the umpire says, players ready, play. And it gets this silent. And there's 14,000 people there. I literally wasn't sure I could pick my arm up as soon as he said that.

Zero to two seconds. Yeah. It took me 20 minutes to go, okay, come on, you got to be able to play. Yeah. So you had to work. You were already under the heavy blanket. Yeah. I was like, I felt good until it got absolutely silent. And I was like, okay, quarterfinals, Connors, center court, there's not a sound out here. So this is like, so as a great coach, you're probably trying to create those scenarios as often as you can, but maybe you're getting these folks as they already have had enough reps to know how to deal with that.

But like, what do you, what do you coach your athletes? How do you coach them to get better in those moments? For me, it's so much of it is back to the core stuff, knowing your identity. What can you do under pressure? Understanding that those moments are everyone's, you're not in isolation, and how do you do what you do best in that moment without taking high risk? And to be really clear with all four of those answers, how would you put in front of, did you know your ideal competitive mindset? Yeah. Right, ICM. So you knew what your ICM was.

And could you call it up now like what it felt like? Yeah, totally. I had to relieve the potential perceived consequences of whatever was about to take place. I had to find out how to accept that if I lose today, I lose. There's 24 more tournaments this year. I had to deflate or diffuse the pressure that I was having in my mind. Was that by saying, I'll be okay no matter how it goes? Yeah. So you would address it. You'd square up with it. So it's not the monster under the bed. No. It's simple as the

old cliches. All that I care about is, my father used to tell me this, is I want you to exhaust all your resources to do the best you can at whatever you do. And if you do that, you're all good. Say it again. Exhaust all your resources to do the best you can at whatever you do, and then you succeed. That's why I don't believe in failure. I don't either. Here's my working definition of failure. I can't wait to hear yours. The inability or unwillingness to go for it. Yeah. You like that? I agree a thousand percent. Yeah. I mean, losing a match, I don't understand it and I don't want to be arrogant about it, but I just, I really don't understand it. But I know when I'm on the precipice and I don't jump or when I'm in

that moment and I tighten up, like for me, that's like, that is something that is within my control. Right. And if I can, if I can just move a little bit further down that path, I'll be better in those moments. Yeah. So let me give you another example, okay? So Taylor Fritz, I told you, loses a match yesterday, three match points. And all three of them, one of them he played the right way. My big thing always is when you make a mistake, I don't care. Just ask yourself, was it the right shot? Good mistake, bad mistake. If it's good mistake, right shot and you missed it. Awesome. No problem. Did you see it and commit to it? And did you have the skills to make it happen?

And so he didn't on two of three. The third one he tried to, but he missed a target, which made him vulnerable. So only- So is that a skill? Is that a- The skill is- Physical skill. Yeah. That's a physical, no, that's a combination of physical and emotional of understanding the pressure. There was a bunch of things that led up to that moment that made him unable to hit the target with his serve because

he hit a conservative serve and still missed the target. So my point is, okay, let's look at what happened. Now you tell me why. And he had a bunch of reasons that led him for that totally made sense. Totally made sense. Right. I said, those are all great. And I said, so let me ask you this. You have one of the biggest serves on the planet. You have one of the biggest forehands on the planet. In that moment, you got tight and you weren't able to win or lose doing those things. Right. You said, right. I said, okay, so figure out what we can do. So in that moment, you trust your identity so that you know, huge serve, huge forehand. If I win or lose a point, I'm going to do it doing what I do best.

Okay. So I hear that and I don't go identity. I go capability. Okay. Okay. So that's fair. I agree. So I go, so you, you want them to be honest. Like this is what I do. Right. And then identity,

I would say is like, here's what I think the most dangerous identity in sport is. I'm a tennis player. Especially if you're not. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. So yeah, I did kind of make a, got you okay but i am an athlete i am a football player i am a because you are so much more than that and so if for your tennis players if they say i'm a tennis player and i please push back on me on this i'm a tennis player when they go do the thing when they're on center court their entire identity is at stake. When you say, I'm a learner, I am committed to progression, I am a fill in the blank, all these other types of things, something far bigger than tennis. Then when you're on center court, it's like, oh, this is an experience. This is what I do.

It's not who I am. It's a way of detaching. It's a way of decoupling who you are from what you do to create space and freedom to do the thing that you want to do well. And so it's not messy. It's not like my entire identity is on the line. And I say all this and, and I want to get your take on the second part, which is sometimes that desperation. This is everything I have. If I don't fucking get this thing, I can't, I can't do rent

and I can't do milk. And I, and you know what? My entire identity, my entire bank account, like get out of my way. Cause I'm coming. Like there is something noticeably powerful that desperation. I would not encourage it as a state, right. As a place to come from, but they're very dangerous to compete against because they'll do whatever it takes. Right. That was Sampras. Oh, that was Sampras? That was Sampras. He was like a – He was the most laser-like, totally muted, predatorial competitor that I've been around.

So how would you describe his – There was nothing behind his eyes. He was so enigmatic. People never got a feel for what makes him tick. Did he burn out? No, he got tired emotionally and physically. And like I said, at 31, 30 – I actually think all of the surroundings of being a superstar was so antithetical to who he was as a person that he just got tired of it. At that point, he had the record. And in 2002, when he won the US

Open, after not winning a tournament, any tournament, for 25 months, he said, that's it, I'm done. Never picked up a racket again. How's that for walking away? He lost in 2001 Wimbledon in the second round. 2001 Wimbledon, didn't win a tournament for 25 months, lost in the second round. And then from, as soon as he lost the second round in Wimbledon, from then in June, it was a total reconstruction. Actually, not a reconstruction, a remembrance of who he was. That's what we did.

Who he was, what made you great, what do you still have, how do I do this? Let's commit to it. And so if you do this, you'll win another major. I don't know when. I didn't think he was going to do it in eight weeks. He did it in eight weeks. But that's him. He was the most gladiatorial guy that didn't say much that I've ever been around. Now, and my wife always asks me, what's the difference between Pete and Roger in that regard? Because she's not a tennis person. And I say, Roger's unbelievably competitive. But if I were to generalize, I would say, Pete's a gladiator. Roger's a sportsman. I see that. That's a great capture. What would you put

in front of, what adjective would you put in front of, what adjective would you put in front of the word competitor? So for Pete, blank competitor, like smooth, savage. Is there a word that's like either two words, either relentless or laser-like? Yeah, cool. And the only person that outwardly sees it that I've ever, I think the greatest competitor in anything I've ever seen is Rafa Nadal. I don't know enough. I'm a huge sports fan, but I know tennis really well. I've never seen anyone that hits a ball like he does, that it looks like every single shot he hits, whether it's, watch him practice, looks like every shot he hits, his life depends on it. I got to see him. I was fortunate enough to go with an athlete to the US Open, so I got to get a quick glimpse.

It's all. He's all in. No, it's. He doesn't do any walkthroughs. He doesn't do any kind of mumble reads. He like it's all in all the time. That's his default. Yeah.

The first the first time Taylor Fritz practiced next to him at Wimbledon. Literally, this was when I first started with Taylor. David Nank and I were coaching him. Rafa walked on the court and started hitting next to him at Wimbledon. Literally, this was when I first started with Taylor, David and I were coaching him. Rafa walked on the court and started hitting next to him. Two courts down and Taylor looked at me and goes, holy shit, I don't ever want to play that guy. Oh, he already beat him. And I was like, dude, he doesn't play like that in a match.

I can promise you. But that gives you the sense of urgency he puts on every person he plays. That's great. It's like Mike Tyson. Yes. Most people were well beat in the locker room. Greatest line I ever heard, by the way, Mike Tyson and Michael Spinks walking out to fight, right? They're walking through the tunnel.

And I hear someone go, go get him, Spinks. And I saw Spinks. I saw and heard Spinks turn around and go, I'm going to try. And I was like, don't even walk out there, dude. Do not even walk out there. Wait, you were part of – you heard this? I heard him say, I'm going to try. It was either I'm going to do my best or I'm going to try.

And I was like, I don't even need to watch this fight. God, that's great. But there's just certain people that have certain – and again, that's knowing who you are. Like Pete couldn't have that ferocity like Rafa does for every shot. He couldn Picasso floating around on a magic carpet. But he tried his ass off, but it just looked like he was making donuts. It's like this is easy and this is fun. I mean I used to go to Roger's practice sessions. And when he's screwing around, which isn't much, but he used to do stuff just messing around.

I would be like, how do you even do that? So there's some God-given stuff that you just can't measure. But the competitive things, the controllables, like you talk about, I think are really important. Andre Agassi, I always harp on this one quote. He always said, control the controllables and forget about the rest. I add to it, which is like, not that he's wrong about anything, but I add to it, like I'm more interested in trying to master the controllables and forget about the rest. I add to it, which is like, not that he's wrong about anything, but I add to it, like I'm more interested in trying to master the controllables, but that's a, that's like the fundamental commitment to be on the path of mastery

is that no, it's a hundred percent under your control and work on mastering those elements. And there's very few that are a hundred percent under your control. So it's not like this is a wild guess. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles,

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And then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. You know you're the interview guy. I'm going to ask you a question. So I'm talking about sports stuff, right? And I told you that I wrote a book called Coaching for Life. And my book was basically tennis as a metaphor for life.

And really all I did was take my experiences, my very good fortune of playing pro tennis and being around these people and not looking what they're able to do with that God-gifted stuff like Federer, but these traits that they had and how they were able to succeed in adversity and how they were able to manage pressure. So my question to you is, can you, which I think you can, but you push back on me, and how do you translate that to Wall Street, a school teacher, a banker? Because everyone has adversity, right? Yeah, a living room conversation to a boardroom conversation to tennis or whatever. Yeah. Here's the general frame first. Thank you for the question. The general frame is that you take your mind with you everywhere you go. And so life is this really interesting working laboratory. And when we narrow in on one thing like tennis and we provide radical, honest feedback,

sometimes from the environment provides the feedback and sometimes from the relationships around us, when we have honest feedback, it teaches us how to work well within ourselves. So what do I mean by that is that the thing that ports from one environment to another, when you drill way down to the honest experience, the way you speak to yourself, call it self-talk, is portable. The way you do that calculus about what's the challenge ahead, what are my internal skills, that's portable as well. And becoming sophisticated, just those two, is pretty radical.

The awareness you have of the way you speak to yourself, that's a trainable skill as well. Mindfulness is one of those practices. Journaling is a second practice. Being in conversations with people of wisdom that really care about you, knowing how to skill as well. Mindfulness is one of those practices. Journaling is a second practice. Being in conversations with people of wisdom that really care about you, knowing how to breathe, to regulate your arousal levels. And I can go on and on. All of those are portable. Are they all habits too? Can the habits change to help their skills? And when you do a skill over and over again, as you recognize, it becomes a bit more automatic. And at some point it becomes below conscious awareness. It's been so well grooved. So you don't have to think about

how to sign your name. No, I call that default mode. Like every great player has a default mode that works under pressure. Yeah. And what we want to do is increase the floor of that default mode from a talent perspective. So you're thereby increasing the strike zone of the ceiling. So the default mode, when it becomes so automatic that you don't have to think about it, and it's really consistent and skilled and precise, and you can do it across many conditions, those psychological skills and technical skills and physical skills, that's the process. But we can't take our physical and technical skills with us from the tennis court to the boardroom but we can take our psychological skills from the tennis from tennis to any other

room to any other environment so i say there's only three things that you can train craft body and mind and the the mental skills are the ones that are portable right to any environment that you're in and And so the answer is a big yes. Yeah. I find it so interesting. I mean, that's why I'm so interested in not just successful people. I'm interested in people that aren't successful as well and people in general, because I want to absorb and understand what the stumbling blocks were and are for them. And then with the successful people, you go, okay, they had these. Oh, but they found their way around them.

How? Why? And so I would contend that tennis, the ones that I've been around, the players that I've been around, very different people, but they've managed that adversity in a way that works for them. And they know how to do that so that it makes them able to do what they do well under pressure. Clarity of purpose, clarity of goals, clarity of first principles or philosophy or identity that we're talking about. To be really good at something, there's like, you got to square up with those. And most people, we don't do it. There's not a forcing function to say, who are you?

You know, like we're just trying to kind of navigate through life and not be kicked out of the tribe. But the brave humans you're talking about are risking everything when they get on the court. And those that their identity is not attached to it, eventually over time, it's like, no, I'm playing out here. Like, are you kidding me? This is amazing.

My identity is not at stake. This is just something I do. I'm also a dad or a wife or a mom or whatever. Not afraid to win, not afraid to lose. I love that insight. Yeah, I really love that. There's a freedom in that. It's such an interesting game, life, isn't it? You know better than I do. It's such an interesting game. I think it's a grand adventure. And I want to go back to Nadal and that photo of Federer and Nadal at their retirement. That when they're holding hands. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when they're holding hands and they're both crying.

That, I don't know either of them and it moved me. No, it's amazing. I've never seen two rivals that have been through so much together that totally respect each other. Two really different people. And I was around – I was with Roger when they were both on the ATP Player Council, which sets up policy. And they disagreed on a lot of stuff. And, you know, Roger would go to Rafa's room for two hours at night and they would debate and argue about stuff that they – but it never changed how they respected each other of who they were and the way they were going about their trait. And so when Roger was going to stop, you know, he called Rafa and said, you know, this is going to be it at Labor Cup. I'd really – Rafa hadn't been playing and was either getting over an injury

and said, I'd really love it if you would come and play doubles with me for my last match. Amazing. Iron sharpens iron, that type of idea. That's, you know, that's to me also, isn't that kind of the ultimate of security too? Like they didn't, I mean, the security in themselves,

who they are as human beings, like they don't have to belittle, you know – I think they totally appreciate each other's greatness. And it's like better – you guys decide. I really don't give a shit. That's right. It's like I'm happy with what I did. You guys can debate about – that's another reason why I go through this GOAT stuff. And I'm like, okay, you guys on – whatever.

Stephen A. Smith and you other guys can fight about it for four hours. Whatever. This guy was great. That guy is great. Well, you don't raise your voice like Stephen A. Smith. I need to start yelling and screaming. But I mean it's interesting. It's great to talk about.

But I just don't want to waste my lungs on it because I told you what my philosophy is anyway. I love just to watch greatness. And I love to watch people try to max their talent out in whatever they do. I don you what my philosophy is anyway. I love just to watch greatness and I love to watch people try to max their talent out in whatever they do. I don't care what it is. As a reductionist, I don't like this question when people ask me because I kind of don't know an answer. So I mean, kind of turn it on you and tell me you don't like it. That'd be fun too. It's like, what's the one common thread or what's the common trait amongst the greats? Like, where do you go with that?

I think it's different, but I mean, if I was pressed to answer, I kind of lean to what you're saying. I don't know. But if I was pressed, I would say the ability to focus under pressure. Can you dissolve pressure? I don't think you ever can. I think you can come to terms with it. I've had the experience myself personally, and I've seen many extraordinaries where flow state is a dissolving of pressure. It's like a relationship with it and you get into that slipstream, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, I don't think that, I don't know, Jesus, the Dalai Lama, Confucius, Muhammad, I'm making it up because I never met them, but I don't feel, Jesus, the Dalai Lama, Confucius, Muhammad. I don't, I'm making it up because I never met him, but like, I don't feel like they

had pressure. I don't feel like the Dalai Lama has pressure. I mean, we could get into a whole spiritual thing too, but I mean, I just think when you mention those names and you mention anyone, there's people of that stature in that realm tend to have a level of acceptance too, don't they? Acceptance of stuff that- Pretty radical mission-minded people though. Yeah. But also in a way, maybe we just live in a time where we don't see it anymore, but in a way where there was also a process to do it that was less abhorrent, less volatile,

less mercurial. the dalai lama now like yeah i'm just thinking i'm talking about times past yeah you're talking about like yeah confucian yeah yeah the original but i i don't know i mean yeah you're right they don't feel like oh if this i get wrong like i'm in trouble or like man man, I got to get this thing done. It's a great topic. It's a great topic. And to dumb it down for sports, Roger Federer two years in a row, this is such a poor analogy because you're talking about sports versus life and history and evolution and just how to live. Two years in a row at the U.S. Open, lost in the semifinals to Novak Djokovic

after holding match points. Two years in a row. And I was with him both years. And literally when I walked out of the stadium after the second year, I was like, did that really just happen again? And then after that match, he was back at his hotel room four hours later on the floor playing and laughing with his daughters, with his twins, and said to him, can I talk to you a little bit later tonight just about the match? He said, sure. So we went in another room. We were just sitting there for a few minutes and I asked him about what happened and whatever. And his response was, yeah, I know, such a bummer. He

goes, but, you know, I've won a bunch of matches where I never should have won. So that stuff happens sometimes. So when's the next tournament? You know, it was literally like this ability to go, yeah, God, it was such a bummer. But man, there was so many matches where like I had no right winning and I found a way to win. And man, it ends up even, you know, that's I'm paraphrasing, but that was the theme of it. And I was like, dude, I could barely walk and I wasn't even playing. It's cool. You know, it's pretty. That's the type of competitor I want to be.

It's pretty interesting, really. Yeah. That's awesome. So you've got five principles. Work not only hard, but smart. I think we talked about that one. Commit and refine your process. Okay.

So I want to talk a little bit about that. Prepare for and accept adversity. Check. Strengthen your game and see it clearly. Check. Take pride in your resilience and reap the reward. So work hard. The smart piece is really clear. Commit and refine your process. What do you mean by commit to, to refine? Well, I'm a big believer in making, I'm a big planner. I believe in making a plan, but I'm also not naive. And I know the plans need to change oftentimes because of some things that are in control and some things you're not in control of. And so you have to commit to your plan and then you have to be smart enough to know

when there needs to be tweaks to it. And that's, I haven't, you would probably know this better than I do, but good team around you, right? Good coaches, assistant coaches, good CFO, good COO, good, you know, you have to have the right people around you to know when you make the little adjustments. And none of those adjustments can come from panic

or insecurity. That's why it's also good to have the good team around you because you reassure, you stabilize who you are and what you're doing, but you make subtle adjustments. I love that. And then prepare for and accept adversity. So let's just quickly talk about perseverance and resilience. So perseverance is like staying with it for the long haul. Resilience is about navigating adversity, right? Can I bounce forward, bounce back is what people, but it's really about putting your foot in the ground and moving forward is what a resilient person can do. Sometimes you get knocked on your heels. And so when you think about perseverance, where do you go when, if you were to help

an organization be better at persevering through hard times? My first two questions are, what are your goals, right? What do you want to achieve? You know, tangible, intangible, quantitative, qualitative. And then I, you know, if it was off tennis, it was something else, it would be, okay, what are the operational needs to meet those goals? Okay. So then I would talk about that. And then I would find out historically and currently what is the adversity that you're facing that's a deterrent to all that stuff. And then when you get into those, I would then talk about skills to overcome that adversity, the skills to overcome it and the tools that are attached to overcome it. And then I would say, now talk to Michael about all the mental and emotional stuff you need to do

to make that work. And I would hand the ball to you and you would run it through the end zone and get them over the line. Yeah, that's great. We should figure out how to do this together more often. All right. Does that make sense though? That kind of a struck that, that, that would be. What I like about that is that you are, you're, you're not saying, well, I got the answers. You're saying, no, let's just understand better. And I think where I would add to it is this, it's a first principle of mine that people already have the answer within themselves.

And our job as coaches is to help unlock it. It's already in there. So you don't need somebody else to come on top and say, you should get out of here. It's like, well, how have you solved this before what have you guys done to navigate a hardship in the past how do you think you're going to navigate this one now it's like asking those questions to get the unlock that's that's kind of my post-match post-mortem all the time what do you do do you have a hot wash i mean today i call i call taylor and I just said, you know, I said, I said, first of all, you're

playing great. You've been playing great for a bunch of weeks in a row. Tough one yesterday. Tell me, tell me about it. What'd you think? What was going on? And I let him talk for 10, 15 minutes. That is awesome.

I'll have to go through at some point with the, like what the characteristics of a great coach. Let's, let's do this part two at some point. I'd love to. The characteristics of a, of. Let's, let's do this part two at some point. I'd love to. Characteristics of a, of great coaching. I would love to. You guys have been patient and persevered to trying to deal with me. So if you can still do that, Michael, I'll come back whenever it works.

Okay. So let's do a couple of quick hits. Okay. Okay. This is like, it's a reductionist process here. It's one or two word answers. Okay. That's hard for me because I have rambling vocal stuff, which is horrible. Okay. Let's give it a shot. It's rich and like, I wish I had like

a shocker. I'll just put it on your collar or something. Like if we go over four word limit. Okay. It all comes down to focus. Living the good life is marked by happiness. Success is trying your hardest. When you think of success, who do you think of? My wife. That's dope. If you could sit with a true master, who? Jesus. You go there. You had one question. What do you ask him? Help me understand. Cool. Leave that open-ended. And where are you sitting with him? At a sports bar watching the NBA playoffs. Is he drinking?

Just water. What's he got in his hand? It's just water. And ironically, a slice of bread. Oh, God. All right. There's so many places we could go. Pressure comes from?

Inside. I am? Lucky. My vision is? Awareness. If I knew what you knew, I would coach my kids open-mindedly if leaders knew what you knew they would lead by empathy money is necessary you roll your eyes unfortunately yeah right I know I was gonna say unfortunately necessary but I didn't know if you would give me two words. No, it's good. Okay.

What would make you happy to do more often? Like where do you find joy and happiness? I find joy and happiness to accept what I can't control, to worry less, and to be with my loved ones more. Frequency of time that you were in flow state as an athlete two percent pete ten percent federer fifteen percent wow yeah very cool i mean the this is for part two conversation but like it's what do you do in the 85 percent how good are you in your average days my my mantra every player is handful of great matches during the year, during your career, handful of garbage.

The rest is who you are. Show me who you are in the middle. Amen. I hope you get that conversation with Jesus. I hope so too. I hope we're watching a good playoff game. That's pretty funny. All right.

Thank you. No, thanks so much. This has been awesome. I really appreciate it. I love this. This has been so educational for me. I really enjoy it. And where do you want to drive people? We've already talked about your book and is there a place to go get your book that you prefer? iRebooks, I-R-I-E, iRebooks.com. Or I think it's on Amazon as well. And my website,

paulanacone.com that is currently being worked on. I think it should be done. Hopefully my daughter's fixed it. A-N-N-A-C-O-N-E. But look, it's all a journey, right? You know it better than I do. And I love putting the pieces together. And when you have all the answers, please call me. That is awesome. And, or you can also catch you on the netflix show breakpoint yeah awesome netflix jumped in and it's been fun to watch them some great storylines and some more coming up soon yeah man what a life you've lived lucky lucky it's a lucky lucky man i gotta tell you that's awesome thank you thank you all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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