Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Unlocking Human Potential: Dr. Cristina Versari's Approach to Thriving in Life

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

How does an integrative approach to living “the good life” - one that blends mental, physical, and spiritual development — help to unlock new levels of human potential? That’s a big question. To help us answer it, I am honored to welcome one of my own mentors to the podcast for this week’s conversation – Dr. Cristina Versari. Cristina is a pioneer in the world of sports psychology and the president of the San Diego University for Integrative Studies. She is renowned for her work mentoring athletes, executives, and high performers using an innovative approach to performance and personal growth.In this conversation, we discuss how Cristina’s near-death experience shaped her perspective on growth and resilience, how she teaches her students using a “business-minded” approach, and so much more.  We are all navigating challenges – whether it’s anxiety, grief, financial challenges or simply the pressure to perform. Cristina offers a refreshing perspective that’s grounded in integrative psychology. I’m really excited for you to learn from her insights…. And to learn a bit more about me along the way._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. How does an integrative approach to living the good life, one that blends mental, physical, and spiritual development, help to unlock new levels of human potential? That's a big question now. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance

psychologist. Today, I am honored to share a special conversation, and this one's a bit different. It's with one of my own mentors, Dr. Christina Versari. Christina is a pioneer in the world of sports psychology and the president of the San Diego University for Integrative Studies. She is renowned for her work mentoring athletes, executives, and high performers using an innovative approach to performance and personal growth. We are all navigating challenges, whether it's anxiety or grief, financial challenges, or simply the pressure to perform. Christina offers a refreshing perspective that's grounded in integrative psychology.

And I'm really excited for you to learn from her insights and learn a little bit more about me along the way. And a quick note, if you find value in these conversations, I would love for you to take a moment to leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to podcasts. Your feedback is critical to helping us reach more people and grow this incredible community. So with that, let's dive right into this conversation with Dr. Christina Versari. Dr. Christina Versari, I have been looking forward to this for so long.

There are very few people in my life that have been instrumental in shaping the future and the person who I am today. You are one of those few people. And so I would just want to start with gratitude and honoring, maybe you don't know this, the position that you've taken in my life to help me be the person I am. And this belief that there is still so much more inside of me. And just to set the context is, you know, we met in 2000. And you were the president, I think, of the San Diego University for Integrative Studies.

And it was a seminal choice for me to go to that PhD program. And it was not an easy choice. And I am so thankful that I did. And I love celebrating you as often as I can and the experience I had for my graduate training. So I want to start with gratitude and saying thank you. Thank you for having me here. And I'm very proud of you. Thank you.

It's a very special moment for me also. Oh, okay. It's the first time that the role is reversed, that you are interviewing me. I know. Oh, okay. It's the first time that the role is reversed, that you are interviewing me. I know. Yeah, I know. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun. I'm a little nervous,

because I'm not sure what you're gonna bring up. I'm not sure the world needs another 30-year-old Gervais. Like I was, I am different now than I was at that time. So it'll be fun to reminisce a bit, but I think it'll be important for me to celebrate what I learned from you and what you're doing now and in the future as well. So can we start with just how are you? How are you doing? I'm doing great. That's always my answer. Every day when I wake up in the morning I'm alive it's a great day

and is that a foundational belief that you've had your whole life to be grateful for being alive? actually that came up after a life changing event that happened in my life

when I was 18 I don't talk about this very often because... I was just going to say, like, I feel like I know you, and at the same time, I don't know where you're going with this. I don't think anybody else knows about it except relatives and very close friends. But three months before I was going to start college

to study psychology, I was shot. I was assaulted and shot. And at that moment, I realized how fragile life is and what's important in life, what was important to me. And it's a very fast moment that things rush through your memory and your mind, because I thought I was going to die. There's two people pointing a gun at me, and I thought, I'm going to die. And two things came to my mind. The most important thing in life are the people that we have. It's not things.

I place very little value on material things, but very high value on relationships, friendships, family. Those are the things that really matter in life. And from that day on, I felt that I was given a second chance. Our family doctor came to my house to see me, and he said, you were born again. And I felt I had been given a second chance, so I better use it and enjoy my life

my goodness so every day when I wake up and I'm alive is it it's a great day and I've been that way ever since since I was 18 so a lot of people they say I'm doing great another day live it's good like and they just kind of throw away that comment. But the framing, I love how we're starting already. So the framing is like, no, I really mean it because I had a life shifting moment. And would you say that you went through a traditional traumatic experience or did you go, when I say traditional, more like PTSD? Or was it PTSD, like post-traumatic, I'm sorry, post-traumatic growth? I would say post-traumatic growth. Maybe at the time and the months that followed that,

I couldn't leave my house for a few months because I was afraid. So there's some post-traumatic response immediately after. But over time, I had to make a decision. I have choice to make. Either I'm going to be afraid for the rest of my life, or I'm going to enjoy the rest of my life because I'm alive. I survived. I'm here. And I have this opportunity to enjoy my life. At what age did you move to the United States? I had finished my, right after I finished college. So early 20s. Yeah. So this was towards, you grew up in Brazil. Yeah. And this is towards the kind of last chapter, if you will, that you permanently lived in Brazil. Yeah, okay.

How did that influence your want to come to the U.S.? The main reason I wanted to come to the United States was to study sports psychology. When I started my studies in psychology in Brazil, I couldn't find a place for myself. I knew being an extrovert and because of my temperament, I would not enjoy sitting in an office all day, eight hours a day, listening to people. That wasn't attractive to me.

But I didn't know any alternative. And in my second year, one of my instructors asked me, I said, are you a swimmer, right? I said, yes, I'm a swimmer. And she said, have you ever heard about sports psychology? I said, no. And she told me about it. And I said, I love that.

I can do that. That's so exciting. I can see myself doing that. And especially because of my own experience as a swimmer, I had asthma growing up and the doctor, they have, she has to swim. So they put me in a swim team. So I was swimming every day, but I never competed because I was too afraid of losing. So as a nine-year-old, I would look around to see what are my chances of winning. And if I wasn't 100% sure that I was going to win, I didn't want to swim. I didn't want to compete because I didn't want to take any chance of

losing. So I became very good at training and in practice, but I had no interest in competing. So that combination of that, and I love swimming. I still swim to this day. I'm in a master's swim team. And I said, I can do that. I love sports. I love being around athletes. And I can do that.

What were you afraid of? What would be so bad if you didn't win as a nine-year-old? I probably didn't even know what could happen. I was so young. But just the idea of losing was not okay with me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are

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I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

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daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. I see you as a pioneer in the field of sports psychology, and we'll get to that in just a moment. But you've built something that I don't know anyone else that built in the field. At the time, probably the largest business in sports psychology, attracting the brightest minds in the field. And again, I'm bearing the lead a little bit, but let me pause that because I wanted to better understand how you were thinking at stages in your life to put you in a position to take the risk to build something that no one's ever built. And how did you use your imagination to see the thing you

wanted to build? And or maybe you didn't use your imagination to see the thing you wanted to build? And, or maybe you didn't use your imagination. Maybe you just followed the little breadcrumbs and it led to a university. There was nothing to follow. I thought this is great. And then I started researching and I went back to the same teacher and said, where do I learn where the books, there were no books in sports psychology in Portuguese. In Portuguese, I was going to say. There was nothing. There were no classes to take.

And so I started studying on my own. I became a member of the International Society of Sports Psychology. I started receiving the publication. I started reading. And I said, we need to create something in Brazil. So I created the first sports psychology class in Brazil. At your undergraduate? After I finished my undergraduate program, the dean of academic affairs of the university said, once you finish, start your master's, you're going to teach here. I had a lot of conversations with him about the field and the action that I want to take

and research. So I did. I created the first sports psychology class in Brazil. Hold on real quick. That sounds like you and me. That sounds like what that dean of the school did for you. It feels like that's what you were doing for me you know some 20 years later whatever it might have been where you you were really curious about what I wanted

to do and how I was going to go about doing it and I felt like if I wanted to if I would have said I want to you know I want to teach or I want to work at the university you would say hey listen I'm going to help create a path for you that You just had that generative spirit that I'm not, did it come from that, Dean? Or was this just kind of the Brazilian flair that was part of your community? I think it has to do with my personality. And I have been blessed to have had several mentors in my career. He was the first one. And I know I am a mentor to several people.

And I have been since I started our sports psychology program. But at the time, I didn't realize, but now I know, he saw something in me that was like himself. He was a leader in the field of physical education and sports in Brazil. Eventually, he became the minister of sports in Brazil. And he would put me in positions that I never imagined that I could be in that position. Every time he had a group of professors

that were going to work on a research project for the government, I was in those meetings. As an undergraduate or maybe early graduate. I was a student. I had just started my undergraduate program, and I could understand why I was there, but I never missed those opportunities. I was always there, and I always did what he asked me to do.

I followed his... Were you ambitious, like you wanted to do something? I wanted to do something that no one else had done before. I'm still that way. Yeah, you are. I look around and I think, okay, this has been done. This has been done. What's the gap? What's the gap in the industry? What is it that no one else has ever done before? So I started sports psychology class in Brazil. But it was so hard because I was reinventing something that people had already done in the United States. So I said, I want to go there and get my master's degree in the United States and get my doctorate degree. So I did.

I moved here. And I had everything not to do that. I had a great job at a university in Brazil. I had just got married. I had two very young daughters. You know, it's a lot to move to another country to go to school. Did you speak English fluently? I did. When I realized and I decided that I wanted to study here, I started studying English every single day. I had private instructors, and I studied every day.

And I've never been the typical good student. I've always liked to study the things that I'm very interested in. I become very good at those things. But I'm not the intuitive type that learn easily. Studying has always been difficult. But I knew the only way for me to become a sports psychologist and do something different was to get a master's and a doctorate degree in sports psychology.

So I moved here for that. Yeah, cool. So again, I'm going to double down on the pioneering aspect. And with pioneers, I like to try to understand where are they coming from. So I don't want to necessarily point to the thing you built, but how did you, of course, I'm going to, but like, how did you organize your inner life to be able to build the things that you're building? And just to be uber concrete, you built a university, which is a private university, which is the actually to this day surprised that that's where I went to get my PhD. That, like, I'm really, you know, that was, first of all, I'm surprised I got a PhD. When I'm really quiet and honest, no one in my family even went to undergrad. So sometimes I still like, I like to remind myself,

like there was a lot of hard work to carve a new way. Yeah. You know, to change the family narrative. Yeah, it is. I'm super grateful for so much. But okay, so let's stay on your path here. You got your PhD and then you were working in the field? Or at what point did you want to build?

My plan was always to be independent, to do something on my own, start my own consulting sports psychology practice. And I was at an international sports psychology conference in Singapore. I was out of the country. When I came back, two people independently came to me and said, I saw an ad for a job in sports psychology. You need to apply. It's a perfect job for you. I said, I don't want a job. I have my own business. I don't want a job. I said, but you have to apply. It's the perfect job. And I look and I thought, you know, I like that idea. It was a job to work for the NBA, helping the players prepare for their second careers.

So I applied for the job. They interviewed 80 people and I got the job. And I felt, again, very blessed, very fortunate that I was picked among so many other people to do the job. That's amazing. I mean, you think about your arc and to be selected there, do you know what they saw in you? Because this was groundbreaking. At this time, this was something that in itself,

that job was, it was the first league that I know of that had a position such as that. Yeah, and I was the first league that I know of that had a position such as that. Yeah. And I was the first woman that they ever hired. And I didn't know. Because growing up, I had a belief system that came from my mom that I could do anything. And that's why I believe people can do anything. I'm an example of that.

She always said, no, you can do anything. I should thank your mom because you passed that gift on to me as well. You did it in a way where, and I pass this gift on, I think, as often as I possibly can, is to see something. I need to work to see the specialness in somebody. It doesn't just leap out at me, but I need to really attend and think and feel about what's so wonderfully this divine spark about somebody. And then once I capture it, I can't help myself but to say it more often and more often to the person. did that for me in a way that was very subtle, which was like, it was almost a throwaway comment that you made early in my PhD program where you said, Mike, you can do anything you want in this field. I remember that day.

Do you? Yes. You probably remember my face. I remember that day we had just been at John Wooden's lecture. That's right. And we're in Santa Monica. Oh my God, like, you invited me to sit down with like how many people with John Wooden

where he was. Like 10 people there. Citing poetry and like teaching his philosophy. And it was like, was it only about 10 of us? I felt like it was like three of us in the room. It was a very small space. Yeah.

So we're outside after that meeting and we were talking. I remember that day. That's right. Yeah. And I said, you can do anything. That's right. And I knew that about you. Somehow I believed you.

I won't say that just to anybody because my mom said that. I believe that. I won't say this just to anybody. So your mom said it to you because she loved you. And then you said it to me because I'm not fishing for a compliment, but what did you see in the 30-year-old Mike? Which I'm not sure the world needs another 30-year-old Mike. Like I was, and I hope the world doesn't need another 50-year-old Mike in 30 years from now. I think the world already has a lot of people like you, but there's a lot of people that don't realize that they have a gift, that they have the skills, that they can do more with their lives.

Yeah. And there are certain people like you that have that, and you explore that, and you have an awareness. There's more that I want to do and there's more that I can do. What do I need to get there? And I learned this from one of my mentors. He said that we see in people some of the qualities that we have in ourselves. Sometimes we hire people. People say, well, they don't really have the qualification,

but we see something in them that we see in ourselves, that we have, and we know they're going to succeed on that task. So we attract people. We pick people that have some of the same qualities. And I saw the qualities that you had. You told me that you already had a master's degree. You already had clients. You're already doing well.

You didn't need to get another degree. But you felt that you wanted to take your clients to a different level. You knew there was more that you could do for your client and there's more that they could accomplish in their whatever they're doing, their sports. And you wanted to get the tools to be able to do that. So you didn't need to do that. And so that's- Your memory is up. I remember that conversation with you, but I didn't expect you to remember it. I do remember. There are things that happened yesterday I don't remember, there are certain things

that are really important that I remember. And every client, especially the NBA players that I work with, they say the same thing, they say, I can't believe you remember that. But I remember conversations like that, and this was the first time we met. It was. And I knew that you were going to do very well

because you were not happy with just going to a certain level just to go this far. You want to go further and you want to explore the full potential that you have that you can help other people the same way. At the time, I wonder if you picked up on the, that I was trying to control my anxiety to the best of my abilities, which I've done the last 25 years or whatever, a lot of work on it. But I have that same craving for more, to understand more, to go deeper, to go further.

I have that same agitation, if you will, but it's not fueled by anxiety as much as it was, or maybe even at all at this point. If you feel the anxiety doesn't show. Yeah, even at that time. Even at that time. No, I never sensed that from you. Yeah, that's interesting. Maybe it comes at a level that you're the only one to know. I kept that from you. Yeah. That's interesting.

Maybe it comes at a level that you're the only one that knows. I kept it very private. Yeah. Yeah. But with stress, it's like that too. Sometimes you're the only person that knows that you stress, and then it starts showing. So then you realize you have to do something about it.

Yeah. But you probably keep it at the level that so it's probably a low level well at the time it didn't feel low it feels lower now because i've it's like a dragon that i had to wrestle with like what am i so afraid of and why am i acting why why is my primary drive built from anxiety as opposed to inspiration or creativity or something and you you had a lot of And you had a lot of questions. You had a lot of questions. That's funny.

If there was a bullying, I wasn't really bullied. But if there was a narrative in high school or grade school, the nickname was Quest for questions. Like, Jesus, Gervais, stop asking so many questions. So that was something that's been around for me for a long time. But that's how you learn. It is how I learned. You learn so many questions. So that was something that's been around for me for a long time. But that's how you learn. It is how I learned. Yeah, you learn by asking questions.

So you had a lot of questions, and you liked the answers. I had a lot of questions when I started my doctorate degree, and I didn't like the answers. So one of the reasons I started our sports psychology program was to change that. From what to what? When I moved here to go to graduate school, one thing I've always done in my life, if I want to learn something, I want to know who's the best. Who's the best in that field?

I want to learn from the best. Whatever it takes. I'm not going to spend years learning from, you know, several levels down from the best. I want to go straight to the best. What gives you kind of the oomph to believe that you can sit at the knee of the best even or learn from the best as opposed to like work your way up and start in a smaller something and work your way up to the bigger something?

How do you do that? I never questioned that. I believe you. I 100 something. How do you do that? I never questioned that. I believe you. I 100% believe you when you say that. I never questioned that. Who are the best people in sports psychology? Because I had been receiving the publication,

so I was seeing the names. So I kind of had a few names. Okay, so these are the best. I want to learn from them. And I came to St. Jake to learn from the best they're the founders of the field of sports psychology i want to learn from them and i had spent some time in florida there was another mentor that i had at florida state was i learned a lot from him because they have things figured out they have the recipe to success in that one area that you're interested in. And they can tell you step by step.

And they're not intimidated by other people's success because they're already successful. They want to share. Now, you have some of your guests have said that. You know, they're at the point in their lives that they want to share what they've learned with everybody. Yeah. So they want to share. They want to teach to other people learned with everybody. So they want to share. They want to teach to other people so they can also be successful. It's really refreshing, isn't it?

Yeah, that part. So you're attracted to wisdom. You're attracted to ultimate or high levels of success. Yes, I've always done that. And I do this for everything in my life, not just education. If anybody in my family has a health condition, I research who is the best, who is the best doctor. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were

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ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. This is the reason I chose the university. And I do think it's probably important to, I think I've shared this with you, but it's worth noting, is that, again, I was like late 20s, early 30s when I started the program. And there's a big manual of graduate schools in

sports psychology it was like this really thick kind of thing i don't the directory of sports psychology programs programs right and it was a list of all of the programs that you could either that they either had a straight down the middle lane of sports psychology that you could get a master's or phd in or you could kind of cobble it together and so it was a big big book. And I went through and I was looking, I was like, oh, look, I could go to Harvard. I could go to USC. Okay, look, Stanford has a program. And I had exceptional grades coming out of my graduate program,

my master's degree program. So I had the opportunity to choose where I might be able to go. And then I thought to myself, like I could hear all of my friends from the surfing culture that they call you out when you're kind of faking it, or you're trying to pose, be a poser, or like if you're just not hardcore about it,

they call you out quickly. And it's a little dangerous to one's health, psychological health. So, and I could hear them in the back of my head. What are you doing? Are you really making a choice for a brand? Are you choosing a logo? And I was like, this is gross.

This is not how I should be thinking about this. And so I put it down and then I covered all the labels up. So I covered up where it said Stanford and Harvard and USC, and I covered all those up. And I thought, I'm just going to read the description and the professors. So the bio for the professors and the description of the program, and I'm going to circle them. And I'm not going to be encumbered in any way by the brand. And going through, this one's applied. Oh yeah, I really want applied more than research. It got really clear to me. I wanted to go roll up my sleeves

and do the practice as opposed to study, you know, what happens in a laboratory. And so, and then I, so I narrowed it down and then I kept coming back to this one. And the description was, if you want to make a difference in the field, if you want to, if you want to work directly with athletes, if you want. And it was like a bunch of questions about if you see yourself being a practitioner in the field, we might be the program for you. Something along those lines. And I circled it and I was like, that was the one. And I called my wife over and I said, Lisa, look, I did it. I found the one.

And she's like, okay, like pull off the post-it thing. Like, okay, where is it? Because this might require moving. And that was like an issue for me. I didn't want to uproot my life. I had a practice and things were good and like I had my life, but I wanted to take it further. And I pulled it off and it said San Diego University. And then it said integrative studies. I said, what is that? Is that San Diego? Is that USD? What is this integrative program? And I said, I don't, I have to call. And when I looked on the website, you had Dr. Bruce Ogilvie, which is the father of American psychology. Like how did you get him connected? I still don't know

that. Oh, let me finish my story. You had Dr. Bruce Ogilvie, you had Dr. Niderfer, which was like the most well-respected researcher for assessments in the field. You had one of three sports psychologists for the United States Olympic Committee on faculty. You had the leading expert in transition, you know, in and out of sport and definitely in life. And then you had this wild kind of Tibetan psychology program that was like integrated as part of the sport psychology track. And then you had you, which was somebody who was groundbreaking in the field from the NBA. And, and, and I was like, I have to go, I have to make this decision. And my peers were like, yeah, that's fitting for you, Mike. That makes sense that you would kind of be a wild one and make that choice rather than the

safe route of going to one of the brands. I just felt so at home right when I made the choice and I got to meet you and some of the faculty at that time? There's about another hundred people like yourself that would say something similar, that they had spent a very long time looking at all the different programs, and they knew they didn't want to go there. They didn't want a research-oriented program. They want a program that they can learn how to apply the knowledge, which is the foundation of our program. It's all applied psychology and learn from the best. Again, it's like learn from the best. You can't go wrong. That's what led us down this narrative. And I think that there's a little moment here for the listener who is saying, okay, how

does this apply to me? Two parts to it, at least, and I'll work in reverse order. One is I think you offer a track or a way for people to understand the application of good psychology. And my definition, working definition of modern leadership is a rich understanding of the basic, good old basic psychological principles. Not that leaders are going to do psychotherapy in the hallways or in their office. It's not that. Rock solid psychological principles. Motivation, that's easy, relatively easy. Belief systems, how people are properly incentivized,

what people really want, a way for belonging and impact, and I could go on. And your school would have a way to help the modern day leader better understand the application of the psychology of high performance. Is that fair to say? Yes. The idea of the integrative approach is the mind, body, and spirit approach. Most of the sports psychology programs in the United States were developed out of the

physical education department, the exercise science. And they focus on behavior and research. And you can only go so far. You can only take your client so far. And you get to a point, then what are you going to do next? They don't have the psychology training. They don't have the skills to do an assessment and realize, okay, what I'm doing is not working because my client actually is suffering from depression or has an eating disorder or has an addiction, and they need

to see a different type of professional. You can try everything. If somebody has a different type of problem, it's not going to work. So that's how most of the programs are. And it's one approach that fits all. So you teach relaxation exercise to all of your athletes. You teach by feedback to everybody. And I've learned very easily working in the field that that doesn't work.

It does not work. I tried that because that's what I was taught. And I've learned very easily working in the field that that doesn't work. It does not work. I did. I tried that because that's what I was taught. And then I would ask the players. This was when I was working with the Brazilian national basketball team for the Olympics. Say, how was that? Did you like it? I said, you know, it was okay.

But what I really like is this. And I started looking and said, my God, it makes sense. Different personality types there's different approach you cannot use the same technique with everybody so I immediately change to I have a I design a program for the person based on their personality type their their experience you know their past experience and goals. And it's different for everyone. So you can't apply just one technique to everybody. So I wanted something that we would teach our students a very strong

foundation in psychology. You have to learn psychology. You need to learn assessment. Assessment is critical to identify. If the person has a problem, they cannot always verbalize that and say, this is what I have. They don't know. More than half of the population in the United States that suffers from depression is not getting treatment because they don't realize they have depression. Because it looks like anger or frustration or something else.

You're tired. Yeah. I'm just tired or something that people don't know the signs and symptoms. So you're as a sports psychologist, even if you don't do clinical work, you need to understand the issues that are clinical and refer them out to someone else if you don't want to do that kind of work. So that's one. And then design programs are very specific.

You can't separate the other parts of the person. So you can't just work on the behavior. Okay, so we want to improve your performance. We're going to work on this behavior. Great. But now they have a relationship when they are not training, that's not going very well. They're going through divorce. They're going through some very difficult time. That's going to impact. So we want our students to look at the total person,

the mind, body, and spirit. Every successful athlete that I've worked with, I've always asked them a question. When you won the gold medal in the Olympics, what was going on in your life at that time? And it never fails. They say, oh, never thought about this before, but everything was great. My relationship with my coach was great. I was in peace with God. I had just met my wife. I wanted to impress her. Everything was great. My training was great. Everything was aligned. It wasn't just the performance on the field. It was everything else was in the right place. And I heard this from many athletes that I've worked with. And that's the idea of the integrative approach.

You can't just treat one part of the person. There has to be balance for you to perform well in not only sports, in business, in education, anything. There has to be a balance in the other areas of your life. And I do that with my clients. We have like a wheel of life, you know, how is everything going along? I got to work on this. You know, my spiritual is not very good. It's such a, the wheel of life is, you know, it's like, I don't think it's a validated instrument, but it's such a good tool. It's a visual.

It's such a good tool. Right. And it's a starting mechanism. I use it as well. And I'll actually just say, okay, listen, and I'll do it organically. And it's all, I'll draw the person in the middle, which is Rogerian therapy, Carl Rogers approach, right? An unconditional positive regard for the person, which I learned from your training. And then I'll just go, okay, what are all the different parts of your life? And we're going to make this wheel or this pie, if you will. And then we put some percentages to it. It's a great conversation starter just to get a picture, a snapshot of like, how do you see the important components of your life? And it's so telling when somebody says, look, it's basketball and it's recovery and it's my marriage. That's it. I have nothing. So hold on, hold on, hold on. We need some dimension here. is there's a lot more there's a lot more yeah and so it's a it's

a great and and the listener can just just go search wheel of life and there's plenty of those things out there it's just it's a great conversation starter but it's a it's a great tool yeah it's a great tool because it's visual and sometimes we focus so much on work and sports, and then there's family, there's charity, you know, giving back. So how we're doing on those other areas, the spirituality part, because everything impacts everything else. And then when you look at it, so this is actually, now we're kind of in the weeds here, but when you look at the wheel, let's say that there's, there's three categories. There's, there's the skills, not the skills, the parts of a person's life that they're doing really well. They rated themselves at eight, nine, or 10. And then there's a clump of factors that people say, kind of like six, five, you know, kind of, and then there's

some, they're like two or threes. So we've got the upper, the lower and the middle. Where do you start if you're going to help somebody? And I've got, if you want me to share first, I'm happy to, but like, I'm really curious where you start with them. So if that's where we're at, then we'll go back and reevaluate the goals. I start with goals. You do. Before I do anything else. Yep. What are your goals? Goals. What are your goals? Short-term goals, long-term goals, lifetime goals, all with goals. You do. Before I do anything else. Yep. What are your goals? That's what I ask. Goals. What are your goals? Short-term goals, long-term goals, lifetime goals. Mm-hmm.

All your goals. Then I do personality type because anything we're going to do from that point on depends on what works for you. Mm-hmm. And that's different than what works for everybody else. So when we get to that, okay, the spirituality is low or the financial, whatever it is, we need to go back to the goals and reevaluate the goals and set new goals. And then following that, the actions that you're going to take. So what are you going to do? What are the actions that you're going to take starting tomorrow that's going to get you closer to improving those areas.

But do you start with, do you focus on the things that are, let's call it the weakest in the middle or strengthening the strengths? The weakest. The weakest. Because we want the balance. Okay. So let's say my performance is great. My training is great.

I'm sleeping eight hours a night. I'm measuring everything. But no, I never see my family, I never do all those other areas. There's no balance. Super interesting, because I've found that I totally get the position that you're taking, and I've found that when I start there, they start to focus on the things they're not good at,

and it's really hard. I think there's an outsized impact when you can get some of those things moving in the right direction. But I find a perseveration almost that they're focusing on the things that they're not good at and then it can slide into like this frustration that, man, it's just like, just can't get any change here. And maybe I'm going at it in some wrong ways. So I start with the ones that they're the upper of their middle or the middle of their middle so that they can get some early wins and see a little bit more balance in an easy way.

And then I start to go down the chain. And I don't know any research around this. It's just more philosophical. I love that, what you just said. Do you know why? No. Another idea I had when I started the program, I said, I'm not going to teach my students everything the way I do. You said that to me all the time. It was really frustrating because I wanted some answers.

Because I want, I saw this, I was at Florida State visiting for three months and I noticed that every graduate student was doing research in one area which was their main professor's area of interest. I said, I don't want that. I want my students to develop their own approach. I want you to learn what's out there, research all the different options and alternatives that are out there, research all the different options and alternatives that are out there. Now develop your own approach because what works for me, it's because of who I am. And what works for you is because of who you are and who your clients are.

If I tell you, this is how I do with my clients, and you try that, and you make a mistake, well, that didn't work for me. Now you figure out how to make it work because of who you are. So that would be a first principle. So you're operating from a first principle, which is know who you are. And as my father-in-law says, and dress accordingly. Don't put on these clothes if you're really not about that. Just know who you are and dress accordingly.

Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought who you are and dress accordingly. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

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Okay. So I don't think I ever told you this, but Dr. Walter Rutherford was an important person at the university for me. And I was just about ready to graduate. And it was kind of the final class, if you will. And I think the listener will appreciate this because I had studied. Now I'm about to go into the wild with new. I was already working in the field a bit, but I was about to go with this new degree, this new set of practices. And I was going to be on my own because I was getting licensed. And I was going to be on my own for the first time in the training program.

Early on in the training i would be i would be in the okay there's a bunch of students i would be the practicing therapist he would watch and observe and maybe you would take on the client and we would kind of role play in different ways so there was like safety nets all around and now i'm about to go out back into the wild and try some of these new interventions on my path to licensure. And before I left the nest, if you will, he said, I said, he said, hey, Mike, congratulations. Like, nice job on everything you've done. I said, thank you. He says, you know, I'm always here for you. If there's any resource that I can be for you, just let me know. I said, thanks. And I said, actually, I got a question for you. He said, sure. I said, okay, if a person shows up and they're really severely depressed, like not suicidal,

where I need to call for additional resources, but it's really dark for them. And there's some trauma that I have a hard time understanding. What do I do? And he smiled and he looked at me and he said, it's a good question, Mike. Do you have others? And I said, okay, how about like somebody is like best in the world at what they're doing and all systems are firing and they just want that competitive advantage to take it a little further. And I'm not sure exactly where to go with them because it's like, they're better at what they do than I am at what I do at this point.

And like, how do I navigate that? He says, Maya, that's a great question. Do you have any others? And he baited me like three or four times. You can see Walt doing this, right? And he baited me like three or four times. I had these really kind of stimulating questions. And then he paused and he says,

Mike, you just need to show up. You just need to listen. You just need to be in the chair, have them be in their chair, and it will unfold. And everything that you need to work on personally is going to show up in those conversations. So make sure that you're learning and that you're paying attention to the relationship and you're really present with what's happening inside of you and what's happening for the other person, it'll happen. And I just remember exhaling like, I can do that. I can totally do that.

And that's very true. It's amazing. That was the philosophy of the integrated approach. You are now trained in the psychological theory and best practices, and we've got some mind-body connection stuff, and you've got some spiritual stuff that we introduced, some of the Tibetan psychology pieces, and just go get free now. Yeah, it was awesome. And the majority of our students, when they went to do internships, their supervisors asked them, where did you go to school? And they would say, I never heard about this school before.

But you're the first one that comes here that actually knows how to do something. Every student that I get from San Diego State University, UCSD, I have to teach them how to do tests. You already know how. So, okay. Because everything was applied why has the why has the university not the um honestly the the most impacted program in the world i don't i don't understand because of the talent that you have for professors and you know the the alumni

are like doing amazing things in the world so like how come the school is not, I don't know, tip of tongue, it's kind of like synonymous with the brand of psychology or sports psychology? We were at some point in the beginning

and there were many regulations that came up that were impossible to comply. Also, we have never received government funding and we have never applied for government funding. We never wanted to have government funding because we wanted the freedom to have the

students study what's important to them. We don't want government funding to control what the curriculum was. We wanted to teach the students what was really important and necessary in the field. So we have always been undercapitalized and a few people doing everything because we just didn't have the financial resources. Our students didn't graduate with a huge loan, student loan to repay. That's right.

Most people, they get a doctorate degree. They had between $100,000 and $200,000 in student loans. I had to pay as I went. When you graduated, the day you got your diploma, you had nothing. That's right. You didn't have any balance. That's right. I paid as I went. You pay as you go. Yep. Lowest tuition in town.

Yep. To this day, can you believe that we have not increased our tuition in 25 years? Come on. Are you kidding? Have never. The tuition today is the same there was when you went to school. My nephew just got into Pepperdine and out of state. He's coming in from out of state.

Do you know what the undergraduate, one year of undergraduate at Pepperdine, including housing, is? $20,000, $30,000. $99,000. Oh, my God. $60,000, $59,000 or something like that for just the education. And then another 40 room and board and food and whatever. So altogether, it's $400,000 for a four-year program. And you haven't raised your…

25 years. We're celebrating 25 years this year. We have never increased the tuition. Okay, so… And the reason is because the students pay out-of-pocket cash. They have to work and pay the tuition. They won't have any loans to repay later. But if the price goes up a lot, they can't afford it. I did not choose the school because of the price.

I chose the school because of the quality of professors. And I also chose it because I like to be counterculture. So I wanted to do it differently and follow the path that made sense to me and own that narrative, even if it was like a, I don't know, it didn't work. I needed to do that. So I followed it because of what you built, not because of the price. And I'm actually super surprised because one of the greatest pieces of advice or guidance is a better word guidance you gave me as

you said mike for every three books that you read in your craft read one in business yeah and i remember thinking yeah and you then you double down and you said people in the field of psychology are not necessarily good business people, and it's a great discipline. So figure out how to do business with this beautiful science that you've spent almost 20 years studying. Yeah. How are you going to make a living? That's right. And it was, honestly, so I was reading three to one.

I followed your ratio. And the frameworks that I understand about business are radically sophisticated relative to many of my peers because I put in that much time and to understand it. And you gave me a great bit of guidance at that. One, you saw potential in me and you hydrated that. Second is you set me down a path to say, make sure you understand the business of your art and the business of your science. And then you also did this other gift, which you said you're different. And it's adjacent to the first one.

And I got a fun story to remind you of that. But so stay on the business piece. You're the one that told me about business guidance. And then you haven't raised your rate. And that sounds like a principle that is orthogonal to business growth. Because we have to make a decision. Do we want to continue the mission and the purpose that we started in school and to train

people in the field of sports psychology to be able to actually function as a sports psychologist, have their own practice, make a living doing that, or if we increase the tuition, we need to get government funding. I see. I understand. Because that way the students need a student loan. And some of the regulations that were created since in the last 25 years made it impossible for us to do that. The school was already, had been in business for a very long time. We had 30 different programs when they made a requirement for accreditation,

which is almost impossible for a school like ours to accomplish that. So we had to make decisions based on that. Do we want it to continue the school or do we want this to become 100% a business that you're just thinking about the financial part? I don't think you would have survived if you would have pulled the heartbeat out of it. I agree with you there. And I really appreciate your kind of punk rock counterculture, not going to go with the masses on how it's so that you can maintain the curriculum with honesty about what you believe that people need.

I really respect that. And have you considered taking on funding to be able to? I would love to do that. I would love to find investors that would like to take the school to the next level with me, continue to provide the kind of training that no one else is offering anywhere.

So the field is like, there's a listener that is going, tell me more right now. Like, what do you mean? Because they would recognize that there's this growing need for psychology. And I'm not saying psychologist, there's a growing need for the application of psychology. The modern leader needs to understand psychology better. There's a landscape of humans that are really struggling and suffering, not thriving. And

this beautiful science of performance psychology has rich insights on how to help people live a great life. And it's just sitting there as an untapped business opportunity. So where is there a place that, I don't think you want to give out your email, but maybe people can send a note to us. I'll give my email, my phone number. anybody can reach me oh boy anybody has interest in joining in this journey of making a difference in the field of sports psychology and helping more people i'm very interested in finding people that are interested in that.

Another aspect of the business that we teach our students, there's a reason why I got to that point. I was subscribing to the traditional sports psychology ideas, but I couldn't see results. I would try something with a client, that doesn't work. I was like, well, that doesn't work either. And I was attending the conference. I've always been, you know, the good kid. I'll do everything I'm supposed to do. I went to the conference every year. And one time, 10 years later, I was at this company and I went at a great sacrifice because I was in graduate school. They don't have a lot of money.

The conferences are very expensive, far away. But I always went. I said, I need to learn more. I need to see if there's something different that I can use. And I stood there and I realized,

I said, you know, the people that are presenting at the conferences are the same people from 10 years ago. They're talking about the same thing. And the only difference

between today and 10 years ago is that they're they have gray hair you know there's no difference and I said I'm not coming to this anymore and then I walk into a presentation by mistake it was a presentation was a meeting with graduate students so all this group of professionals in the field of sports psychology giving a device to graduate students. So I said, oh, that's interesting.

So I sat there and they said, first, you need to work for free. You need to pay your dues and work for free. And I'm like, I don't see anybody else doing that. Why do they need to work for free? Then the second thing they said, there are no jobs in sports psychology. There's like this room full of graduate students. Wait, when was this? Because that was the

narrative 25 years ago that I heard. Was this then or is that still now? Before that. And they said to all the graduate students, last year, according to the statistics that we have about jobs in the field of sports psychology, there were two openings for sports psychologists at the universities. And I was just starting our own sports psychology program. I said, I'm going to tell a student that I interview that wants to go to our school.

I said, okay, there's no jobs. You're going to spend the next four or five, six years of your life going to school, paying tuition, but there are no jobs. You know what you said to me? Do you remember what you said to me? Yes. There are as many jobs as you're willing to create. That's right. Because I have never been turned down by a coach. That's right. Every coach I ever approached, I would introduce myself,

and I would propose something, and they said yes. Because coach, the time had come, the coaches realized that they can use sports psychology, and they need sports psychology, and they can help their athletes. So I say, what can I do to teach my students to do that? So we started a business plan class. To this day, we're the only psychology program in the United States that our students have a business plan.

Every one of our students left the school with a business plan, knowing who the target market was, how they're going to go about. I did one as well for you. You did a business plan. I remember a business plan. I remember your business plan. And I've asked you not too long ago, have you reached your business plan goal? And you said, I'm way beyond that, which is how goals work.

You set goals and you take the action. You're going to accomplish way beyond what that goal originally was. That's right. And all of our students have done that. They're surprised. They say, I can't believe this is happening. They say, oh my God, this is great. We're all surprised because they had clear goals and they had a plan.

So every one of our students have accomplished way beyond they thought they would, and they're all working in the field of sports psychology, even though there are no jobs in sports psychology. Nowadays, there are more jobs, but it's still not that many. The NBA is now required that every team has a psychologist, but that's 30 jobs in the entire country. Same in the NFL. Major League Baseball is doing a pretty good job.

So it's not that they say, oh, there's a lot of jobs. There's still not a lot of jobs in sports psychology, but there are as many jobs as you're willing to create. You can do that in your hometown. You can approach all the swim coaches in that town, baseball, high school, all the high schools. They're all waiting for you to show up because nobody knows where you're at.

We ask a coach, they say, oh, I love the idea of sports psychology. Ask a coach, do you know where to find a sports psychologist? They say, ah. Or they say, do you have a good one? They have no idea. They want to work with people that really understand performance pressures.

What guidance do you give to people that want to just be a little bit better in the way that they experience life? Not necessarily performance, but they want to be better in their life. From everything that you've learned from Best in the World, from the research and the science, as well as the experiences on the frontier, what do you suggest people invest? Decide. Decide that that's what you're going to do. When people make a decision and they don't consider any other alternative, they'll do what it takes. So making that decision, it's not wishing, it's not hoping. Everybody wants things to be different, to be better.

How many people are willing to actually do what it takes? That's a small number. So once you decide, then you're willing to do what it takes. And you don't say, oh, no, I'm not going to get up that early. No, I don't. And that's too much for me. Those are not options. What do you say to the parent who's trying to help their teenager figure out how to be a little bit better in their sport, a little bit better in school, or even just a little

bit happier? To have goals. I think one of the most important things I've learned that for myself and to help athletes is to have clear goals. I didn't even know what that was, but when I was 18, I had a picture in my head where I was going to live, the house I was going to live in, I was going to go to graduate school. I had the picture. I had a visual picture of what that was going to look like.

And one day I look and I said, oh my God, this is the house I visualized that one time. So you have to have a clear picture about what you want, where, with the details. And then you need to act towards that. And do you want those goals to be outcome-based? Like, I want to get into a top 10 school, or I want to be a starter, or I want to... Or the goals that you help people imagine is like how they want to experience life as opposed to what they want to accomplish.

It has to be everything. Okay. It's not just what you want to get, but how do you want to feel. Yeah. Most people are motivated by their emotions and will do things based on how that's going to make us feel. A lot of people, they're going to work with you or with me.

It's based on that. And you actually said that one time, right? Somebody asked you, the three of us talking, what was it that I did that helped you? And you said, it wasn't what I've done. It was how I made you feel. That's right. So that's really important. How are you going to feel if you accomplish certain things,

if you do certain things, if you get a degree, or if you improve your skills in sports? So the feeling part is very important. So how are you going to feel? Who do you want to be? What kind of person do you want to be? Because being successful and not being a very good person is not going to feel? Who do you want to be? What kind of person do you want to be? Because being successful and not being a very good person is not going to help.

It's pretty empty. Yeah. Are you still working with clients? Yes. You are? Yes. Yes. Yes, I work with clients.

I work with professional lacrosse players from the National Lacrosse League and Premier Lacrosse League. And I recently was approached to work with two very young athletes, which is something I usually don't do. And they're independent. They don't know each other. But both are experiencing social media anxiety, which is the new thing. Now, a 9-year-old and a 12-year-old. So I said, okay, I'll work with you. And if I get to a point that I feel that I can't be of help, I'll let you know.

But it went very well. So it's a new thing for athletes, including adults. It's social media, anxiety, and a lot of issues with technology and excessive use of technology or too much information and limiting people's time and their ability to manage their lives. I mean, I couldn't imagine a better investment if I'm a parent or an athlete or an executive to spend time with you,

even if it's just three, four hours. Yeah, to be able to spend time with you would be a massive investment. If you're willing, please share your email and we'll mention that for folks. Yes. Yeah, okay. I can put in the show notes or do you have it now?

Yes, yeah, they can contact me at cversari at s-g-u-i-s dot e-g-u. Okay, spell out Versari for us. V-e-r-s-a-r-i at s-g-u-i-s dot e-g-u. Cversari. They can also find that and contact me on my website. That's christinaversari.com. Yeah, okay. And my phone number is there.

My email address will be there. You're a brave soul. I love it. I want to ask you two more questions about a fundamental belief you have and just kind of where it comes from and why it's important to you and what you see for the future. So let's start with the belief system. This is your words. Anybody can do pretty much anything they want as long as they have a belief system and a support system. So you're pointing to the possibility and potential that people hold within

them and the building of a belief system and the building of a support system. So can you start with how to build a belief system? I'm going to go back to a conversation we had earlier as an example. Okay. When I applied for that job working for the MBA, it never crossed my mind for one second that being a woman could have been a limitation. It never crossed my mind for one second that being a woman could have been a limitation. It never crossed my mind. I never thought about it. I got the job. I had been on the job for a year when I went to my first MBA rookie transition program.

And when I arrived there, I look around around and I was the only woman there. And then it hit me, how did I get this job? If I had had those thoughts, I would have never applied because no one else had done it before. I was the only profession that was there that was working directly with the players. I had access to the players at any game, anywhere, any day in the country. If I had had the belief system, if I had known, if somebody had approached me and said, you know, why are you going to apply?

There's no women working with the players at the professional level. So why are you going to bother? So I had a belief system that I believe I could do anything. I never had those thoughts. It never crossed my mind. Even after, actually. But how does somebody build that belief system? In my case, it was my mom.

And so if somebody didn't help, if they don't have your mom, like what would be the mechanism? They have to have a mom or a dad or a sister or a coach. Yeah. Coaches are very important. They build belief systems 100%. Coaches are either positive or negative. That's right. There's adults that remember when I was 10, my coach said this.

People never forget. I remember things that people said to me when I was 9, 10, 11. I had a great swim coach, you know, and I remember things he said when I was very young. So that's the support system. It's the people around you. Parents do the best they can with the resources they have. It's not their intention to damage their children.

But many people don't have the resources to do anything different than that. But there's other people around. There's grandparents. And I think you can also take it in your own hands in some respect too, which is like becoming more aware of what you actually are programming. Then as an adult, then it's your responsibility. So growing up, it's your support system, but not everybody else had that.

Then it's your responsibility. I've always felt that I could do anything. I can do any work. I can do anything that I decide to do if I'm given the opportunity. And you also have to be a little fearless. You know, I'm fearless. I had the choice back then.

I'm going to be afraid for the rest of my life, or I'm just not going to have fear, or do it. It's not that I don't have the fear. It's that I'll do it anyways. I have anxiety like other people about doing certain things. I worry about certain things, but I'll do it. That's not going to stop me from doing it. And once you start, you don't feel the fear anymore. Your brain is just busy trying to get out of there. So you're not feeling that fear anymore. You just have to take the first step.

I put myself in, I've never liked public speaking. Something wasn't for me. It's not my thing. And I had to give talks to, you know, at the Rook Transition Program with all these people. I was anxious about that. You know, English is not my first language. What if I say something wrong? What if, you know, in a totally new environment for me? But you just have prepare. Preparation is critical. You have to be prepared, a lot of preparation. I spend a lot of time preparing for anything that I'm going to do. And then start. Once you start, you don't feel the fear anymore. Yeah, so you're laying out your mechanism that you're still using now because you shared that you prepared for this conversation

and we've known each other for 20-some years. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I would never. First, I don't want to disappoint you. Oh, come on. Yeah. How is that going to happen?

But that's funny. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. That's funny. No, but anything that I do, I research, I study, I prepare, I talk to people. You know, I've listened to at least 20 of your interviews. And they're great. I'm glad I did. They're amazing.

Thank you. I always like to see the pattern of things. I'm curious. I have a lot of curiosity about things, and I always learn something. What patterns did you see? So I was thinking about there might be some pattern in the people that you interview, but actually I found a pattern in you. Oh, boy.

Really? Yeah. And I noticed that you've left your school in 05, right? So it's been a long time, and we don't live in the same town, so I'm not following what you're doing. We talk from time to time. And I know what you've learned there, but there's other things that you have learned,

and you develop your own approach, which is what I wanted. So it was great to see that and say, oh, my God, this is great, because that's what I wanted. I want all of our students to come up with their own approach. Every class you had, especially mine, I would say, okay, these people are doing this way, that way, this way. Now you go write your paper and invent your own way of doing things. I remember.

Every class was like that. Come up with your own ideas. How would you do this? And I never gave you all the information about how I do it. This is how everybody else is doing. How are you going to do it? And you came up with a lot of very good ideas and approaches. And I notice your interviewing skills are very much of a therapist. Okay, yeah.

And I don't think your guests realize they're going through an hour of therapy, but you have, you're very good and skilled in perceiving and noticing certain things that are going on with the person at that moment. Yeah. I'm more the big picture person. You go deep into, so what was that? What was that? What did you just do? Let's stop right here. Yeah, right. Where did you was that? You know, what was that? What did you just do? Let's stop right here.

Yeah, right. Where did you feel that? Yeah. You know, but you're very skilled. Sounds like some sort of bad comedy skit, you know. You're right. That is what I do. I know a lot of therapists.

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I've been to therapy myself and once you are a therapist, it's hard to find a good one. So I found very good therapists. We learn a lot from them. So I've seen a lot of therapists, and you are an excellent therapist. Oh, thank you. From what I've seen you do during your interviews. You picked up on some outstanding skills, but what makes you good is who you are

i keep saying this over and over i i keep repeating this it's who you are as a person combined with those skills that make you excellent and And I was very impressed to see that and very pleased to see what you've done since you graduated, what you've done with your degree. Thank you. I knew that whatever I did when I left, you would be like, nice job. But I didn't, an unexpected gift in what you just shared.

And so, like, really thank you for that. I love the art of it. I know the science as well as, you know, I would hope somebody in the field would. But I love the art of it. Like trying to get to the truth of the information, trying to really understand what is informing thoughts and reactions and responses and actions and really what is informing that. So in fact, I took the time to read your file. Oh.

And I found very interesting. Wait, I feel like, hold on. I feel like I'm going back to school. Like ninth grade. Yeah, you feel like, hold on, I feel like I'm going back to school. Like ninth grade. Yeah, you see from you the folder. It's like you're being in school.

My parents aren't here on this one, right? Oh my God. And every class that you took, we do a great assessment and the instructors give feedback

to the students. We wanted, you know, all these people to get feedback. So I read. I can't believe you're bringing this out. My heart's pounding. I have it right here.

So I read the feedback from your instructor. I'm not going to read those, but I want to give it to you because this is after the fact. You don't remember those things. You've seen it before, but it's been so long. You don't remember. But now those instructors that you had, and they're all psychologists. All of our instructors have doctorate degrees in psychology. They're practicing psychologists. And the first one I have here is from Dr. Neidfer.

The Dr. Neidfer. Dr. Neidfer, one of the founders of the field of sports psychology. And they saw in you what I just said, that you had outstanding skills. Several of them said that you had the ability to integrate the applied knowledge with the knowledge that you brought into that program already because you went to an exercise science program before. Right.

You were able to integrate and apply that in real life with your clients. And many of them made a comment that you're going to be very successful in your career. So I'm going to give this to you. Oh my God. So that you can read this. I also noticed, which I know I had not seen your file before, that you never had a grade that was not an A. So you had a straight A's.

Like my, my younger self would never believe that. Read Dr. Nidifer's book. I don't want to read without your permission, but you can read that. That's sweet. Mike did a great job in the course. He was enthusiastic and made excellent use of course content. He showed a good facility for integrating course info into his practice. Hey, coming from Dr. Niederfer,

like I'm kind of glowing right here because he is one of the founders of the field and I think we all have such regard for him. Oh my goodness, this is gonna- These are your grades. Jesus. I was, yeah, it's very impressive. I look back and I don't really know how I did.

Full-time job, married, no children, which makes it a little bit easier. But it's true. It's a lot of work. Yeah. And paying as I went, like, honestly, full circle moment for me. Thank you for giving me something to, like, reflect on. And this feels like a rare opportunity to do this and to receive the gift of even you coming here and celebrating together and telling some, some of the war stories from, from before.

And so like, thank you. What a gift it is for me. I have more. We are very, we love pictures. We have pictures all over our school because we want to motivate people when they come in and they see people they have oh my god do not show this to the producers look at me oh my goodness that was me oh my god like like is this in the oh that is so funny christina thank you

oh my god and look at look at your entire family was there oh my goodness i love that you pulled this up lisa and the full family was there they They were like, literally, we were hillbillies and immigrants. So my side of the family were like hillbillies from the sticks. And they're like, we got one. One went to school. And then my wife's family are immigrants from El Salvador and Cuba. And they're all really well educated. So they're like, yeah, okay, good job.

Now let's see what you're going to do with it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. really well educated so they're like yeah okay good job where did you this is wild this is like one of my good friends from school and family I wasn't sure who that was who is that this one here here oh let me who that was. Who is that? This one here? Here. Oh, let me see. That was my grandfather. He's now passed away. He was one of, took a huge place in my heart and my life. And this one was our graduation speaker, was Dale Davis. Oh, that's right.

Yeah, retired NBA player. Yeah, that was a moment. What was I doing? Was I talking? Did I talk? Yeah, you's right. Yeah, retired NBA player. NBA player, yeah. That was a moment. What was I doing? Was I talking? Did I talk? Yeah, you were talking. Yeah. At graduation?

Our school was so small then, every student gave a speech. Every student that graduated had the opportunity to thank their families. Oh, my God. See, as you can see, this is the entire graduating class. I mean, it was a small class. Yeah. Yeah. So every student had a chance to say something,

what it was like for them to go through the program, which was very touching. Yeah. Because it's very touching. For many people, most of our students were working professionals. So they had to make a lot of sacrifice. And they're very proud of themselves, and their families are very proud of them. And every one of them were practicing professionals already.

So this just allowed them to take their career to the next level. So again, this was early 2000, and you combined sports psychology with Tibetan Buddhist psychology. Who does that? We haven't even talked about it fully. And expressive arts therapy. And expressive arts.

Yeah, three areas, they're highly specialized that you cannot find at the major universities. And there's a very large number of people they're interested in, and they're all helping others. It's all helping professions. They go back and do incredible work. When I understood what meditation was from more of an academic, and what monks did,

and then to look what you were doing in the early 2000s or like 1999, I guess, combining all of those together. And now look where meditation mindfulness is part of the mainstream, but considered a best practice for performance and wellbeing. And it was so taboo at the time that the first person who introduced me to one of the professors didn't want to call it the thing one wanted me just to experience it first he goes okay listen um go and close your eyes and i was like what are we doing like i was skeptical fidgety you know like what are we doing and then i just went with it you know i trusted him and then when we opened our eyes we came back and it was 15 minutes

and he's like so um how was your meditation i was like what what did you just have me do and so that was one of the first um introductions into the power of that practice yeah 25 years ago nobody knew what integrative health yeah or integrative psychology was. Yeah, that's right. We had to be constantly explaining what does that mean? So what is the next horizon? So you are a pioneer. You're pushing. I wanted to get underneath of some of the frameworks that you think on how you think to be able to create something new in the world.

So what are you seeing for the future? What I would like to continue to do is to change the field and have more. Again, I would say. Create the opportunity for more students, more people to get the proper training and know where to find a sports psychologist. And what are the differences between somebody that has an exercise science type of training? What can they do? What can the other type? Or what's a mental training coach? To make this kind of information more accessible and available to anybody, to find me, it's very hard.

When a client finds me, they have gone through a lot of contacts and phone calls to find me, to find our school. It's very hard. We're undercapitalized. We don't have money to do marketing and advertising. It's all, you know, people, they're obsessed with the idea that they want to get this kind of training. They find us.

But how can we make that available to a larger number of people? There you go. So I wanted to expand. I would like to have investors, people that want to assist in that. I see that as a mission for them also. And I wanted to train more sports psychologists to be able to offer this service to a larger number of people. The services are not just for athletes.

People in business, one of our graduates, Sylvain Guimond, his work with corporations in Canada, he's not only working with athletes, he's doing training for employees, regular employees at corporations, and he's helping thousands of people that way. Amazing. And you're doing the same. You're working with corporations. I didn't know he was doing that. We should, it'd be great to link up with him.

I did not know that. Yes. He's doing very well. He has an app. He's doing great. That would be awesome. Yeah. So this can be applied to anything, improving performance, becoming better at whatever it

is that you do at whatever level. I've worked with a group of swimmers one time, and one of the swimmers was nine years old, and he came to me and said, this was the best thing I've ever done in my life. And I thought it was just so cute because he was only nine. But at his age, he was already able to see how his life could be better by applying some of those principles.

So you don't have to be an Olympic athlete. You don't have to be an NBA player. You can be a nine-year-old that will learn some skills on how to deal with social media and your friends in schools. Performance anxiety, goal setting. So this applies to anybody that wants to be better. Being a great teammate. Also career transition.

Yeah. The principles that we work with, that we teach in our program for career transition can be applied not only for athletes, but any kind of short career. What's the arc right now? Or I don't know, 10 years ago it was 87% of athletes in the NFL within two years of retiring were broke, divorced, a bit of a mess in their life. Is that still the number? I haven't checked recently, but I know the divorce rate.

So for the general population, it's 50%. But for athletes, it's over 70% after they retired. And it's actually position-specific in the NFL. We know that the O-line have a much lower divorce rate than defensive backs. That's interesting. It is interesting. It's something about the mindset required to do the job.

And I imagine there's something to do with personality because every position in football requires a different personality type. So there's probably a certain type that stay in relationships longer. You're right about that. And it's the joke, the O-line, they still drive their same truck that they had in high school or same truck they had in college. They're married to the same girlfriend. They're protectors of the quarterback. And they eat together. So if you go into just about any NFL eating hall or kitchen, you'll see that the O-line, they eat together. Like they need to work and be as a unit, and they love it.

You know, they are – no one rises above the fray. They all kind of keep their head down. They're one unit, and they're treated that way. And they love it. They're part of the pack on the defensive side. You know, they're, they're, they're more hunters. They're trying to attack the quarterback and there's a whole different mindset. I, somebody got in trouble for this publicly, so I, I don't want to flame this narrative, but I think that the person was actually accurate that you could walk through a locker room and kind of see, based on how they keep their locker, which position they might be,

at least on which side of the ball. Very predictable. Offensive or defensive. Yeah, you can see some tendencies, and of course, it's going to fall apart for some individuals, but there are some tendencies. Just the personality profile of an athlete and of a team can help a coach improve their team, I would say, 40% to 50%. To understand the personality. Just to understand the personality type of each person and what is the right type for that position. Yeah, you did a groundbreaking study in the NBA based on position and coaching. Like, I know we're long on tooth here, but this is, I think, a really important study

that you did. Can you talk about that? Yes. I used the Myers-Briggs type indicator, and I was doing that for career counseling. And I started noticing that every NBA player had the same type of personnel, and they fell under four types on one side of the chart. And I was curious. I said, what does that mean?

There was a cluster. Yes. I said, what does that mean? You know, they're all, actually, they're like the CEO of the American corporation. I said, that makes sense because CEO of the American corporation. I said, that makes sense because basketball at the NBA level, it's not sports, it's a business. It's entertainment business.

These are the coaches or the athletes? The athletes. Okay. They're businessmen. And then I was curious, so I tested 20 different sports, and every sport attracts a different type of personality. Now I'm working with lacrosse. They're exactly the opposite of the NBA players. They're all extroverts, intuitive feelers, perceiving types.

And I keep imagining, imagine that locker room, because they're all talking at the same time. No one's wearing a watch. They don't know what time it is or what the schedule is. Right. And it's a little bit, I know I'll get in trouble with one of my friends, but it's a little bit of an amateur sport relative to the big business at the NBA and NFL.

And it's not an amateur sport. It is professional. It's a professional sport, and it's consistent. Even if you move them to an even more professional level, They just haven't received the spoils and the riches of money. When I was curious about why was I finding all the NBA players are the same type, I said, I'm wondering if it's just professional at the NBA level. So I test athletes at the college level, high school level, and they're exactly the

same. Then I test them internationally i take athletes from national teams in other countries it's exactly the same i don't think you published this did you no i haven't no this is really but i have data that i have hundreds of tests and i remember there was another piece of information that you tested also some of the superstars in the n NBA and their profile did not match the cluster. Exactly. That's so important. Yeah. Because if you just screen for these four types of personality types to make my team, you're going to miss the superstar. Exactly. So you have

to learn that distinction. It's very important. If everybody's just one type, nobody's creating anything new. Same thing if you have a business. Your entire team, it's all one type. Nobody's creating anything new. There's not a disruptor. There's not an agitator. Because everybody gets along because we all think the same. We just love each other.

We like to work together. There's nobody to say, well, I don't like this. Let's do something different. There's no storming that's going to happen. So I noticed that the star players are different. There's usually one or two players. So there's 12, one or two. The star players, they're an atypical type.

They're different. I'm not going to ask you to say it, but I remember you studied like Rodman and... Atypical type. Yeah, of course, everyone would recognize he's atypical, but that's a perfect kind of emblem for Jordan. Perfect example, everybody knows who he is. Who's the great shooter?

I remember you tested him as well. He had a really orthodox shot. He would almost shoot with two hands. Reggie Miller. Yeah. It was during that era that this data was populated. Yeah. So the star players, they're atypical types,

and they do something different. They don't do what everybody else is doing. They do something different. They're very unpredictable. You can't always say what they're going to do. And that's Michael Jordan. That's all the star players. And guess who is an atypical type in psychology?

The sports psychologist. You and I. Oh, yeah, I know. I know my profile is not. We don't fit the sports, we don't fit the psychologist profile. I recognize that because I was actually distraught when you first gave me, I don't know if you know this,

but the first time you gave me the profile, I took it and I thought, that's not me. I answered the way I wanted to be seen. And then I took it a second time, which was hard to take a second time because if you take it cleanly the first time, it's so easy. But I took it with this FOPO underneath the surface, this fear of what people would think of me. And I took it like hoping, even though my dad wasn't in the room, that he would approve of me. Like, this is the man you're supposed to be, you know, in some way. And when I read it and I was like, that's not me. That's not me.

That's what my dad wants me to be. And I love my dad. And his influence is strong in me in that way. And then I took it a second time and I was like, that's me. Like, okay. And then I remember going back and sharing that with you, and you're like, yeah, that's totally you. Yeah, but you're still atypical.

Yeah, it is not. The typical psychologist is an INFP. No. And I'm totally the opposite. Introverted feeler. Yeah, perceiving. And perceiving. I'm totally the opposite.'s why i i became a sports

psychologist i wanted to do something different do you remember my my type the first time you tested the stj that's right yeah yeah i do remember yeah i do remember because it's the same as mine i said you're the same type yeah Yeah, that's right. And I said, you can do anything. Because you knew it. You saw it in you. You can do anything. Oh, goodness. Christina, thank you so much for all that you've provided, the guidance, the subtle

hands or the subtle comments that have made a world of difference. And just the way that you've held space in my life and the decisions, the micro decisions and major decisions I've made. Thank you for it. And thank you for creating experience, a learning experience that if I have had some impact in the field of sports psychology, you've played a huge hand in it based on that training. And that training had a lot to do not only with theory and best practices and good science, but a deep discernment to really understand who I am and to dress accordingly, to mix my father-in-law's metaphor, and to just go do my very best in a world that was full of possibility. And so thank you. I wish that on my loved ones. I wish that

for you. I wish that for the listener, the same gift that you provided me. And maybe through this conversation, they can hydrate some of that for themselves as well. Well, thank you for saying that. It's very nice, and thank you for having me on your podcast. Of course. And it's a very rewarding moment for me because 25 years ago, I had some ideas, and no one else was doing that.

And I thought it would work, but I didn't know. But I was going to do it anyways. Nobody was going to stop me. And I did it, and it worked. You're the proof of that. Oh, God, I love it. So it's a very rewarding thing. Wow, you know, it worked.

And I was right about, I had a vision. I want people that are capable of working this way, that way, doing something different. And there's you and several other students doing outstanding work. So it's so rewarding for me to see that that happened. And I'm very blessed, I feel blessed and very thankful that you trust me. Because you had nothing at the time. We had the smallest school anywhere, no name. We did everything ourselves, two classrooms, and you, from the conversation we had, you trust that what I was saying to you was going to happen and you were going to get the training that you wanted. And I'll recommit publicly in this way with you,

is that I see the training of some of the other professionals and I cannot understand what they've done. I cannot understand what they've done. I cannot understand. And there's a, I just think that everyone should go through the training that I went through. I feel really honored that it was a magical time and you're still moving it forward. And I don't know, maybe ever all programs do this, but it was different. You had me go to 50 hours of therapy. That was cool. I thought I had it all together and sat down for 50 hours and I was like, yeah, I need a lot more work. And, and, you know, the other thing that not to, not to damp any of the gratitude is that

I also feel like at any given point in time, it could all kind of just fall apart. So I don't have this feeling like there's a glide path of success and I'm on the train and the train's never going to kind of be derailed. I do feel like one day at a time trying to solve hard problems that are meaningful and doing it with people that I enjoy doing it I don't have a system in place, but things can go sideways. And so I'm always thoughtful of that. And I still feel like an 18 year old kid at one level that is still selling something out of his trunk, you know, to kind of make ends meet and figure it out. I love that scrappy part. I do appreciate the, the appreciate the the the sensitivity to not overestimate that you know it's it's on a glide path right now but it doesn't mean it always will i think that those two things keep me really sharp and they're also unsettling in some way so maybe the next for next time we have the conversation i say ah you ah, you know, like life is blissful.

You know what I know? Yeah. If things fall apart, you'll find a way. Thank you. Doesn't matter what the format is, you're going to be successful in whatever the next thing is, if that happens. I do believe that. And thank you for saying it.

Cristina, what a gift. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

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