Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Victoria's Secret CEO Jan Singer on Authenticity, Confidence, Control

Episode Date: September 20, 2017

In this conversation we sit down with Jan Singer.Jan is the Chief Executive Officer for Victoria’s Secret Lingerie, the world’s most recognized and beloved intimate apparel company.There are thousands of apparel companies across the globe. How do the successful one’s stand out?Part of the success is tapping into the psychology and philosophy of their potential customers. The clothes we choose are in many ways a reflection of our personal philosophy. Jan has a clear understanding of how important it is for her to be clear, open and authentic — as her philosophy impacts those that work with her, and ultimately shapes the experience of the product and customer experience.We all have choices we make everyday – of our actions and our thoughts — and how we choose to spend time and money.This conversation touches on that very issue — choice — and the process to choose thoughts that serve us well.Jan’s authenticity in the conversation is a hallmark for her success in leadership.We learn about her leadership style and what she learned from her time at Nike, where she held various senior roles for more than 10 years including Vice President of Global Apparel and Corporate Vice President of Global Footwear.Jan has an uncanny ability to push incredibly hard, to persevere and also has the self-awareness to understand that making time for recovery is just as important.We discuss the role mindfulness plays in her every day life and a personal moment that made her reevaluate what she values most to this day.Jan has incredible spirit, has silenced her doubters time and again, and is someone I’ve loved knowing and am excited to introduce you to through this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, in this conversation, we sit down with Jan Singer. Jan is the chief executive officer for Victoria's Secret Lingerie, and it's known as the world's most recognized and beloved intimate apparel company. And there are thousands of apparel companies that people can choose from across the globe. So the question is, how do the successful ones stand out? And part of that success is definitely tapping into, and this is not a new idea, but they tap into the psychology and the philosophy of their customers. They understand what people are looking for.

And the clothes that we choose in many ways are a reflection of our own personal philosophy. There's lots of clothes that we can wear and the ones that we choose to put closest to our skin or demonstrate to the world, sometimes I guess they're the same, that those reflect how we see the world, how we want to be viewed, how we understand the ways that we're going to spend our money. And Jan, in this case, she just has a really clear understanding of how important it is to be clear and to be open and to be authentic. And her philosophy, her personal philosophy impacts those that she works with, which ultimately shapes the experience of the product and the consumer experience.

We all have choices we get to make every day. Our actions and our thoughts are 100% under our control. And an extension of that is how we choose to spend our time and money. And this conversation, it touches on that very issue choice and the process to choose thoughts that serve us well. And that's at the center of this conversation with Jan. And her authenticity in this conversation, it's got to be. It's got to be a hallmark for success in leadership. We learn about her leadership style and what she learned from her time at Nike, where she held various senior leadership roles there for more than 10 years. That's where she and I first met, including vice president of global apparel and corporate vice president of global footwear. Jan has an uncanny ability to push incredibly hard

to persevere. And she also has the self-awareness to understand that making time for recovery is just as important. We discussed the role mindfulness plays in her life and how a personal moment that made her reevaluate what she values most in her day. And it's those moments that shake our foundation or remind us of what's true or really important. And some people just kind of run over them and some people stop and pause for a minute and reflect. And so Jan shares how she captured one of those moments for herself. So Jan has an incredible spirit and she silenced her doubters over and over and over again. And this is someone I've really enjoyed knowing, and I'm excited to introduce you to her in this conversation. So let's jump right into this conversation with Jan Singer. Jan, how are you?

Hey, Michael. All right. So we have relentlessly tried to schedule this conversation. So thank you for being able to create the space to align our calendars. No, yeah. Thank you for the patience. I appreciate your understanding. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, me too.

Yeah. And it's wonderful to be able to watch your journey. When we first met, I don't know how many years ago at Nike, and then watch you take over Spanx or run from the front or lead from the front at Spanx. And here you are now at Victoria's Secret. So how wonderful. It feels pretty full. Lots of folks lifting me up along the way. And I've always been so inspired. And I use a lot of your, I really do use a lot of your lessons and teaching as I lead different teams. And, and they all, it's so contagious. Yeah. Okay. So like, but that will be curious to me about what are some of the ways that

you think about leading and think about following and think about the way that you are inspiring from the front. So, but before we do that, I'd love to get some context. And that context is more like, where did you start? What was your path that led you to be a CEO and CEO of massive brands? You know, Victoria's secret is a massive brand. So like where, what was family like early life, like wherever you want to take us to be able to just have some context of what it was like. So funny, you know, you, you really do lose perspective. So thanks for reminding me the massiveness. Does it feel overwhelming? No, not till someone says that it really just feels like a job. And frankly, I never set my sights out to be a CEO. So maybe that's why my husband always says you have absolutely,

you don't get it. I'm like, No, maybe I don't. But maybe that's what works, right? Is that I don't get it, meaning I don't leverage it to a degree that it shouldn't be. I just go to work. I guess that takes me back to the beginning. You're helping me. I grew up in Brockton, Massachusetts, known as legitimately known as city champions. Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano and, you know, a real blue collar industrial town, shoemaking town, a fourth generation Brocktonian. It's a very prideful city outside of Boston. And I went to high school with 6,000 kids. I was number one football team east of the Mississippi. I mean, we were a sports team. Patrick Ewing played our high school team when he was at

Cambridge in Latin. There's a lot of sport in our town and a lot of hard work. I think that the town is famous for me for family. There's a lot of generations who are there. My brother's still there. And for the commitment to hard work and the pride in the city. And that never leaves me every single day, like ever. And while that was all good, I knew, I just wasn't, I just knew there was more somewhere. Like I knew that through books and movies and magazines, I used to read magazines and pour over pages of fashion and beauty. And who are these people that were leading these big lives outside? And who were they? Because they weren't in my town. I just knew there was something else. And then my dad and Because they weren't in my town. I just knew there was something else. And then my dad and mom took me to New York when I was eight. I'll never

forget it. I know exactly the whole trip, like the back of my hand. And I remember my dad said to me, to my mom, actually, we've lost her. That was it. There's something gone right away, right away. And I remember the coat I had on. I remember where I was standing. I remember everything about it. And I remember the smell of the apartment. I remember everything we stayed at. And they, um, cause we didn't travel as a family. Like we, we didn't have that kind of money and we didn't, we weren't, we weren't struggling, but my, we didn't do family vacations and travel and that kind of thing. So this was a big deal. And I knew that the energy, the lights, the building, I still feel that way. I go to New York every week for work and I knew that the energy, the lights, the building, I still feel that way. I go to New York every week for work and I get there and I get this like, I'm back in my head, like I'm back

and it's so everything to me. So I wanted to work really hard because I knew that I was an average student. I was one of 6,000 in a high school. I really didn't have much counsel around college and career. My dad was an accountant and had his own self-made practice. My mom is a nurse. My brothers are not, I don't come from a family of corporate America at all. So I was an average student and I decided to go to a great little school, Ithaca College in upstate New York, because in my head, it was like, I want to be in upstate New York, because in my head, it was like, I want to be in the middle of nowhere before I live in the middle of everywhere. I like the edges. The middle for me is very hard, but extreme, I do pretty well. Was that a thought early on, like early on that the extremes are interesting,

or is that something you've come to appreciate? I think, and you and I talk about this from time to time, and it didn't occur to me till later in my career. But I in high school really struggled health wise, I struggled, you know, self inflicted destruction, you know, refuse to eat, just really struggling with trying to find my own path. And for whatever reason, could be control could be that I was different than my family. I don't know why. But I remember at one point being so sick, that the doctor said to me, you and I really don't talk about this too much. So I'm so comfortable. I don't with you. I'm gonna tell you how it is. I was true. I had to make a decision. He said to me, there's nothing more I can do for you. You have to decide to be better because I fundamentally just stopped eating. That was my deal. God, I love that thought. It's true.

He scared the hell out of me. I bet. Because people would tell me that, but I was like, oh, you don't know. You don't get it. You're not as good as this as I am. I got it. And he just said to me, he was really not very kind about it. He just said, Hey, I can't help you. And so, wow, I had to make a choice. And I believe that I chose to carry on

and to live. And I believe that and I believe that when you make that choice, you really do try to live a very big life as big as you can it's a choice so i have a weird i get very upset when people just arbitrarily waste time and i in adult life have reconciled that back to that part of my life which is why would you waste this precious gift if you are choosing to live okay so that that choice to live is really important, right? Yeah. That fundamental, I think, you know, I think we've talked about this. I don't know, but we all have a fundamental decision in life to make.

And like, this is one of them for you. So, so that being said, what was, and you can say, I don't want to talk about this, but like, what, what was so hard that you were struggling so, so deeply from a middle-class, um, you know, family, like what, what was it? I think it just, I don't know. I think about it a lot. And sometimes it's so funny. I know the doctor who took care of me in Boston. And many times I want to call him up and say, look at me, I did okay. I'm all right. Right. It's so funny. I get emotional about it because he really, he was good. And I chose, he could be as good as he wanted to be, but I chose. And I, what drove me there might've been many things could have been, I'm not like maybe my family. Um, maybe I didn't understand that that was okay. When you raise children, now I have a

gorgeous daughter and son who are nine and twins. And you can see that you have to accommodate and make space for the fact that they are their own people and not get frustrated and try to make them something that they're not. So I can see if you have young parents and your kids are not like you are, that that can be hard. And so maybe that was it. Maybe my mom is a nurse. My mom cares about the most amazing things, all the right things. She's amazing, powerful woman. But there were things that I liked that maybe she didn't understand. I'm very tall. She's very little. We're very different looking, you know, maybe it was that maybe it was that I was exposed to a place in a time that I wanted to go to, but didn't know how to get there. It's a bit of control, you know, that you try to

establish as a teenager that says, you know, that you try to establish as a teenager that says, you know, I can't control my life, but I'm going to control this. And it could be all those things. I don't really know. But the point I think that's important is, it inspired me to actually studied psychology after in college, and also inspires me every day about human behavior. I'm obsessed with what makes people do things because I know one thing to be true, and that is that humans really only do exactly what they want to do. You can't make somebody eat or drink or bathe or go to work.

You can't make them do anything. So how do you inspire them? What makes them move? What made me move? Why would they choose? What's the value stream and things became a real obsession for me. And I was lucky enough to be able to then go on and study a bit about how the brain works and why people behave the way they do. I love it. Yeah. It sounds like you have a high regard from that, from that vantage point, you have a high regard from that vantage point. You have a real high regard for a person's autonomy and determination, self-determination. So that, I think, that is how

you lead. Yeah, I find it important to understand what their belief systems are and what's going to bring them value, especially when they leave their families every single day to come here and make money for themselves, but also for the company shareholders. And what is it? It doesn't matter. Like I always have parts of my presentations for them about, you know, what if, and most of my what ifs are things that they're going to find valuable that we have to work on together. It's part of like, Hey, I hey, I can put any plan you want up there, but if you don't understand the value in it, and I don't mean the technical financial value, but I mean the personal value in it, you're not going to do anything I tell you to do.

The Nike example I use all the time, I had a wonderful, wonderful leader boss, you know, Eric Sprunk up there. He's amazing. And, uh, I remember the first week with him going through a strat plan. I tell this strat planning session with the guys on the running team and he was the head of footwear, like the head of Nike footwear, right? Big job. And the guys are sitting there and they're taking them through the plan. And he says at the end, you know, Hey fellas, um, any thought about that little project around the sock liner that we talked about? And they were like, yeah, yeah, Eric, you know, we thought about that. We looked at it. We're looking at it. We're thinking about it. Yeah, we'll, we'll keep thinking about that. And, and they left and I was shocked,

right? I was like, what? He's the head of footwear where I come from and the East coast. It's like the head of footwear says, do something, you do it. And so I asked him, like, why didn't you just tell them, like, why did, why didn't you just tell them to do the sock liner? He's like, yeah, cause they're not going to do it. They're going to do it, but they're not going to do it with all their heart and soul. They're not going to do it with conviction. It's going to take their time off of other things that they are going to do well. And there must be a reason that I have to learn about why they think it's not important. They know running. And that was like, whoa, you know, you're right. You can't just come in. Like I didn't, I didn't come in graduating from an Ivy League school, confirmed that I was brilliant and

therefore was going to tell people what to do. I came in with like, hey, I don't have this all figured out. I'm going to need a lot of help. How can I inspire people to see what I see and hear what they see and combine those thoughts? And how do we move forward together? And I really mean that because if I'd come in with all the credentials, maybe I would have come in bossing everybody around. Maybe if Eric had been a world-class runner, he would have told them to make exactly what he needed. But when you're not, you have to figure out a way to really share what you're seeing and hear what they're saying and find the path in between, you know? Oh, find the path in between. Because that's my question was like, when you've got an idea

and then you listen to another person's idea and your idea to you, whether it's either confirmation bias or you've already made up your mind and you're just, you know, really kind of closed, but want to be open to other people's ideas. Like how do you, how do you deal with when something outside of you, um, doesn't quite make as much sense as what's happening inside you. And you've also, um, you value other people's opinions. Like how do you make that decision to move in a direction that you already kind of preordained? Super hard, right? It's like stopping your backswing. You're on a momentum. You see the path. I have a bias for speed. Like I work pretty quickly and I'm a pretty quick study. So I can get some time someplace that people can't get to yet. And that's always hard for me. Like I go, okay, I have to remember where I'm at. Got to meet them where they are. And sometimes it's a matter of time, but sometimes

it's a matter of, you know, shifting. I have to really get quiet in my brain and hear what they're saying, like hear what they're saying. And even when I hear what they're saying, I have to ask a lot of questions so that I understand the essence of what they mean. Sometimes people aren't great communicators and they're not saying what they mean, but they're telling you, wait a minute, they're telling you slow down, or they're telling you another way. And if I hear the other way and I still, and I've considered that already and they're not on board and I still think I'm right, then I have work to do to help them see what I'm seeing. If I hear them, and I think they might have a bigger and better idea, then I just go into it. Like, tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. And generally, to your point,

the truth is somewhere in between. It's not usually like, holy cow, you're way off the reservation. It's usually like, they build on it, or it adds another dimension, or, you know, you bring to them how many brothers and sisters do you have i have two brothers i'm the middle child's only girl and what is it like to be the middle child's only girl you end up not eating in high school that's what it's like oh no i have an older brother who's like 16 months older than me. And I have a younger brother who's about four years younger. What's it like?

I don't know any other way. I wish I had a sister. I love my brothers. They're amazing. And I'm very close to them. As a family, we're close. I always wish I had a sister. Always.

Not maybe growing up. But now when I see my mom and her sister and my friends who have sisters and we all get older, gosh, I wish I had a sister and I wish my daughter had a sister, but I don't know any other way. So I'm just how it is. It's good. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 felixgray.com for 20 off okay and then um how bad was it for you like what was it a full-blown eating disorder or was it eating yeah it was full-blown i don't it was just like i stopped eating it wasn't like there was no real i mean anorexia wasn't a thing bulimia wasn't a a thing. It was a long time ago. I just wanted to lose a few pounds and that sense of control that I could control what I was eating and see the results. The losing the weight wasn't the problem. It was the stopping of the losing of the weight. You know, I didn't know how to stop it. So I just obsessive, obsessive stuff. Okay. So I don't really, I don't want to glamorize or glorify

that at all because it's not healthy it's not wonderful it's um dangerous and it's scary yeah and it's bad for a lot of reasons from a physical and psychological health but i do have one curious question uh the amount of like inner strength when your biology is telling you to freaking eat i'm'm hungry, and you've gone way past it? Like, how did you how did you work with that? And have that discipline and fortitude? I think it's just a matter of sheer force of will. I mean, I guess the thing is how powerful the mind is. I mean, you know, from your work, and I think about work a lot with these roles that I've had lately, the last 10 years or 15 years,

there's a very big parallel between what I'll say, the difference between like an everyday athlete and elite athlete in my mind is their ability to control their mind. You know, their mind control is incredible because a lot of people have capability, but not everybody has the mental tenacity and elite athletes to hit like 3000 golf balls a day. You got to really have mental tenacity or you watch them. And at the end of a match, somebody cracks it. It has to do with fortitude. Right. And so athletes have that. I think founders of businesses and entrepreneurs have that as well. Like the tenacity to stay on your business and see it all the way through no matter that tenacity is something I

recognize in my work from the founders I've worked with. And then for me at the time, there's something very powerful about that control. I'm sure that's how athletes feel. It's very powerful. No one can make you do this. Only you can do it. So it's kind of that inner, it wasn't about being hungry. It was about control. That's what it's about. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Okay.

And then do you have any ways that you think about helping people or even fostering yourself at a deeper level? Like, are there any practices or thought practices that, you know, can accelerate that fortitude and tenacity? Well, it's funny. It's a dangerous thing because if you have a propensity for it and you fan into it, you can get really sick. And whether that's about eating or about drinking or about studying or working, it doesn't matter what it is, working out, it's an obsessive compulsive genetic, I think, somewhat of a

genetic disposition to have the, to have to catch that edge. And then it's very hard to, the only reason I don't go back there, many reasons, first of all, it's like, it's craziness, but it's because I remember how hard it was to undo. When you get caught up in that, it's very hard to undo. Okay. Brilliant. And, and so how do you not slip into the obsessiveness of wanting control? I clearly remember what it was like the years and the pain it was like to undo. I don't want to go through that again. It might be like addiction might be like that. I don't know. But it's, I don't have a craving to go back to it. Maybe that's the

difference. But I certainly know that when I think about what that reality was to undo, I'm not going back there. So I'm okay with lack of perfection if it means I don't have to go back to that. Okay. So what are you craving? Well, I do like autonomy, to your point. I like to make sure that, well, I'm a team player, but at the same time, I like the, the, the space to breathe and to think into vision. And I always crave the space to do that, especially right now when things are so busy and so fast,

I definitely crave downtime big time. Like I, if I can't regenerate, it's a nightmare. If I end up working too hard and then I, I can't, I usually can count on where my breaks are going to be in terms of just pure nothingness. And I mean nothingness. If I can't see that, then I can't power through the work. So if that's too far out in the distance, I won't fall apart. I love it. Is that a daily practice? Is it a weekly, monthly, biannual? Like what is, what kind of space are we talking about? I think I have a good propensity to go hard for about six days, maybe seven. But if you go into 14, like if I don't get that break in between, if I don't have that half day or full day of like, just let me not have any plans. Don't pressure me. Don't ask me what's for dinner, anything like just let me, don't judge me. Let me just be. If I don't have that, like I've had a couple of stretches here where I've had to go 14 days or more. It really shows up. I become, I can't think my family

suffers. The work suffers. I get angry. I'm like really angry because when I go hard, I go really hard and then I expect in return a break. And so that's kind of where I get to. And then, so now we're talking about your recovery program, if you will, or the way that you think about recovery. But before we go into the weeds there a little bit, can I offer you just a thought, like an observation? Please. Yeah. So in your voice, I've been able to speak to thousands and thousands of people that are world leading at what they do. Not just in these conversations on this podcast, but for many years.

And you have something really unique about the way that you speak. And it's not just the tone of your voice, which is cool. It's really distinct and unique. But it's right just the tone of your voice, which is cool. It's really distinct and unique, but it's right underneath of that. There's something noticeable about your passion that comes through the way that you choose words and the way that you share words. And yeah, it's definitely recognizable to me. Do you recognize passion? Yeah. You know how in your life, this is so goofy, but you know how in your life, you always go through questions about, am I good at this? Am I not good at this? Am I good at this?

And then there are a few things you're like, I like, you know, you're good at, and no one can plow you over about it. Like things like that. Those random things. You're like, I'm very good at this. You can't convince me of otherwise. Right. What I, what I know, odd stuff for me, right. I know for some crazy reason, I can teach a really good spinning or soul cycle class. Why? I have no idea. I don't know if it's the music or the people. I used to teach it in the city years ago.

I bet my bottom dollar if I taught it today, I'd have a rocking class. Like, I don't know something about that. I know that I have passion. I know I always ask about why I have it. I think it's because I chose to be here. I think because I feel so emotional about the fact that, you know, by God, like, I'm here, and I chose to be here and let's go like, so that's the second and I also know, when I talk to groups of people like my team team that it's a choice for them to come here. You know, like they don't have to be here.

So I am supremely grateful to be here. And I'm supremely grateful that people choose to be here and want to go on whatever crazy ride we're going on. So I feel like that. And I feel like I don't want people to have that. I don't want people to suffer in my mind. Like that's what my brain goes is like, please choose. And if you don't want to be here, it's really okay. Like it's so okay, but be at peace with your choice. I feel like that. Like when I get on an airplane too, it's like, I go, okay, if this is it, right. Cause I don't know why the airplane, my husband's a pilot.

And he's like, you realize you should say that every time you get in your car, not the plane. And I'm like, yeah. I said, like, okay, how do we do? Like, I'm good, right? I'm good. I'm good. I gave it my best. I took it to the wall. I loved as hard as I could.

I worked as hard as I could. I hope I'm a good mom as best I can be. Daughter, that's it, right? We only get a finite. It's so pure for me that I recognize that this is just a finite moment in time that we know. This is it. Okay, Jen, this is why I think we connected so long ago about the way that you lead. And it comes from a really deep place about the, I don't know, just how fragile now is and how quickly it goes away.

And then so you lead and you lead your life first from that passionate place. And then is there a word that you use or two words that you use or more to describe what it feels like for you to be connected to passion? Well, you know, you know what I'm going to say, because we share this same phraseology, probably like I am all in all the time. If I'm not all in, I'm asleep. I get to sit. Like I won't go. Like I won't show up.

If I don't feel all in, if I can't find the value for myself, I'm not showing up. I don't care how much you pay me. I'm just not coming because I can't get out of bed like that way. It's a very strange thing. It's not like, by the way, there are days that I literally do nothing. Like I have to, and, and people say, you mean you go for a run? I'm like, no, I mean, I mean, I'm going to do nothing today, but whatever I feel like doing, which

might feel like nothing to you. It's so good. Okay. Yeah. And so that, so all in and with this passion, is it a, is it fiery? Is it edgy? Is it smooth? Is it like butter? Like, you know, I'm looking for some adjectives. It's like guttural. It's like, um, like from the gut, it's like, for me, I get very emotional about it. It's like, yeah, it's, it's deep in the gut of like, if I'm in, we are all in, I'm in like, who's in like whoever's in, it's so connected. It's not like, yeah, I get fired up. I am the loudest person.

This company is so funny. It's lingerie, right? People have been here a long time. Some people knew. And it's been intimate apparel. I'm present, right? And you can feel it. So I manage a lot by walking around.

I get such energy from people like off the chart e and so i yeah extrovert like i remember i had a day here recently or it was maybe on my seventh day of working to that point and i had an off-site with the team on that day plus we had to come up here and do an all-employ. I had given it all I got two day offsite back to back with an all employee cafe meeting. That's about all I got. And I still had to go do a design review. I was in my car leaving and they came and said, wait, we forgot to do the design review. I was like, I don't think I can dig deep, dug deep, got out of the car, got to the design review because of the people there. Like I see the faces all of a sudden i'm

back in i'm all in i'm on okay this is awesome what do you got this is amazing the product's amazing the people are amazing i don't know where it comes from other than the fact that they give me energy and so i feel like that like i feel like it's very energizing and it's like if i'm gonna be here i'm not gonna mail it in just not it in. Yeah, you'd be great in a foxhole. And it probably feels like that's why people like are attracted to want you to lead and to be led by, you know, is that foxhole thing. Okay, so then let's get into the recovery piece. So passion is like this burning fire or whatever. And then how do you protect it?

And that's the way I think about or honor it is the way I think about recovery. So what, I mean, I'm not going to kid you. Some people say, Oh, I can do so much on so little sleep. I can't. I mean, I don't oversleep. But if I don't have enough sleep or successive nights, you know, succession nights of sleep, then that can affect me. So I make sure that I there's nothing happier for me than finishing a really long day or hard day. And like being in my own bed, I just get like so happy. My husband's so funny. He's like, what? I'm like, I'm just so happy to be in my bed.

Very happy. So lying down and just kind of pausing, that's really important. And making sure that I, I have sleep is a recovery essential. It's a big topic these days, but it's so easy to forget to make time. On average, how many hours do you? Oh, seven. Yeah. I'll sleep. Is that right? Is that good for you? Seven good for you? I don't do well after like nine o'clock at night unless I'm out with friends and I

catch some wind. I really close for business. I'm not an all-nighter. I'm not a late night person. I get up really early in the morning. I mean, I'm good at four in the morning. I'm not an all-nighter. I'm not a late-night person. I get up really early in the morning. I mean, I'm good at 4 in the morning. I'm not good at 10 at night. It's just not built that way. It just doesn't work. I know.

I'm constantly on East Coast or European time. It's weird. Okay, cool. And so what else for recovery? I do different things. I mean, there are different phases of my life where working out and running and exercise matters. And then there's other times where I've said, you know, I'm going to trade that off for time with my kids or my health. There'll be times that I'm just out literally in cyberspace patterning about what the, I'm obsessed with the consumer and what they're up to and what I'm seeing and building trend in my brain that always makes me kind of

calm. Like, Oh, I don't have, I guess I have what they call FOMO, fear of missing out of things, but I don't want to be out there. It's kind of a weird thing. Like I, I don't have to be out there now and still I know exactly what's going on. feels like I'm in I'm informed and kind of gives me some peace in a weird way we recovery is time my husband and I are from the cape after Brockton we spent time on the cape we met on the cape something about the cape for both of us gives us like a grounding and time to kind of regroup. So that matters to us. We preserve that. Just funny little moments. I do weird things. I needlepoint.

It's bizarre. It's a repetitive motion. It calms my brain from flying and just thinking. I can, there's weird things. I can't explain to you. It's just like when I can relax my mind by things like that, the big ideas happen and solve problems. Is that a meditative or mindfulness practice for you?

I think it is. I feel like when I make something, I can attach what I've made to a certain moment in my life or a decision or a time, like every piece is connected to something like that was the time I went to this company, or that was the time we moved to Atlanta, or that time that so-and-so was sick or something like I stitch it away, you know? Interesting. Yeah. I think many people would say, Oh, CEO, multiple companies. I would love to do that. And then I'm not sure. I think we're more ready to have this conversation about the dark side of, you know, being out front. And is there a dark side? Or has there been a dark side for you for being out front and, and being at the tip of the arrow? Yeah, well, that's just really your, you know, there's no, there's, there's total truth in the

metaphor. I think it's lonely. You are definitely I just promoted somebody recently to a lead role here. And she said, after one week, I'm really alone. I'm like, no, I know. It can feel like that. But you're not we're all here. So I remind myself that to like, you're, you don't have that same. Again, I'm an extrovert. I'm a team player. Your team is the team that works for you, but your peer group changes. And they're not always in your house. So finding the time to connect with each other is really important. And I think that other CEOs will tell you that when we're together, if there's a couple of events a year that you book time to do, it's very oxygenating and it's very interesting to hear how they're doing, how they're feeling. I sit on a board of a public company and I like to hear and see what the CEO is doing

there, obviously. And you recognize certain patterns and behaviors. So some of the darkness is that you have to find the right trusted editors to share thoughts with and pressure test things with. I like to do that. So I have to do that and find the right people at the right moments. And that's not always easy because people are busy. with. I like to do that. So I have to do that and find the right people at the right moments. And that's not always easy because people are busy. The other darkness is that there's no perfect in

this. You know, I would say that is that dark for me, not so much anymore, but for some, it's always about progress over the perfection. And the other part is there's always going to be paradoxes. There's always going to be conflict. Nobody has a free lane unless you own the company. And even if you own the company, if you're public, you have always going to be conflict. Nobody has a free lane unless you own the company. And even if you own the company, if you're public, you have to answer to the shareholders. You maybe have to answer to private equity. You have to answer to a board. If you're private, you have your own inner demons that you've got to deal with. There's no, you know, we used to play this game when I was first in the city and I was an editor and we'd go to the photo shoot, speaking

of models. And we would, we would say, you know, okay, who's got the best job? Like we would always play this game, you know, is it the photographer? Not really. He's got to deliver the film. You know, it's a lot of pressure. Is it the model? No, they work really hard. You can go, is it Madonna? No, she still has to perform. I mean, everybody has some strings. So the higher up you go, the more of additional dynamic, you think there's more of a clear lane, but there's actually often maybe fewer, more cluttered lanes. I think about that with my team here and other teams, so they just want to make it to the top. I think they think when they get there,

they're going to make a boatload of money and they finally can do what they want. Well, you never really finally do what you want. It doesn't work that way. So stuff like that, you know, you learn. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into

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slash Finding Mastery. And how do you manage and help others manage maybe even the inner dialogue? You know, I know that you're really connected to your inner dialogue. So how do you work with it? Like tactically, how do you work with it when you hear a negative thought when you feel something that doesn't feel good when your body temperature heats up and you're not sure exactly why like how do you work with that i take it all the way to the edge unfortunately so that i know the worst case scenario like i take it right to the wall so i could manage back oh so you front load you think a worst case scenario? Yeah. Just so I can go back from there and it's all upsides. Like, so I'll say, I was talking to, uh, I asked a lot of questions. So if my team or somebody from the team will come

in and say, you know, I'm a, I don't know about this. I don't know about that. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. And I'll say, and then what, right. And then what will happen? And I just let them play it out. And then what will happen? Well, then I won't get the job done in time. And then what will happen? Like, give me the worst case scenario, worst case scenario, we shut the whole company down. Is that happening? Nope. All right. So now let's manage back, because they get to make employees can get to, they can spin, right. And so sometimes it's very calming to let them just talk it out. You know, talk it out, talk, tell me what your worst fear is about this right now. And therefore the worst fear that in the bigger

picture, like take me through it. And they get it out and then they hear themselves speak and they go, wait a second. Like the possibility of that happening is pretty small. Or if it's, if it is possible, let's problem solve it. Like, what would you do about it? And sometimes just giving them the space to talk, talk about it, just talk it out, asking the questions that allows them to like say it out loud. Well, they'll solve the problem, you know, or they'll tell me where they need my help. I do that a lot at home, too. You know, I hear what if and then and then and I'm like, so then what?

You know, so then what? So what's the worst thing that could happen? Are we going to be homeless? And even if we're going to be homeless, we're going to be really good at it because it's okay. At this point in my life. So that's what you're doing is inoculating the fear. Yes. I didn't know it. Yes, you're right. So it's like, you're giving yourself this inoculation ahead of time saying, well, okay, then if it asks you, if that actually does happen, which is a low probability, I'd still be fine.

Okay. If you were to ask somebody else who's on the path of mastery one question, what would that question be? Somebody who has a good practice of mastery or somebody who's learning mastery? I'd say someone far down the path. Like, you know, if Leonardo da Vinci was... Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's really curious for me, the tenacity.

You know, I'm very curious about maintaining that tenacity to continue down the path of excellence. When you get tired, when people doubt you, when the economic headwinds hit you, whatever the adversity, like, where do they go? You know, where do they go to keep fueled? It's funny. It's funny you asked that. Why? Because I'd like for you to answer it. Like, because you're really tenacious. So how do you do it? I dig so deep. My dad right now, my parents are, my dad's 80 and my mom's 76. And my dad is gearing up for a pretty significant back surgery. He was an athlete. He ran and he's

had a back surgery once and now he's going to have another. And we're dealing with other aging issues in the house. And he works still five days a week and very smart guy, but his body is, is in pain. And I coach him. It's very funny. I don't even know I'm doing it. And he's, he'll, he'll call me. He's exhausted. He'll say, and I'm, he's like, God, it's just a tough day. And I'm like, dad, you've got to dig deep. Let's just dig deep right now. Let's just dig deep. Now, what are we really doing? Like, I don't know. We're just talking about digging deep. I think it's just telling my mind, like, I think where I go we had a horrible tragedy and we lost our first son. It's horrible. It's hard to talk about. But what I will tell you is, I mean, it's really

devastating to talk about, but what I can tell you is that my mom would say to me, you will get through this. And I would say, there's no, there's no possible way, you know, how am I going to get through this? And, and what I recognized was that the world kept going all around me, people kept going to work, the buses kept running, people were living their life. And, and I kept thinking, don't you all understand this just happened? Why isn't the world stopping? Like everyone should stop. It's kind of this bizarre perception you have. And then you realize that it's always going to keep going. And it's my choice whether I get back on or not. This is a choice. Yeah, it comes back to your choice. And then just like, that's the first time I've heard that you lost. Yeah. And, you know, did you lose the child after birth or before birth? Yes, I had a very healthy pregnancy and a very healthy little baby boy named Benjamin Riley.

And he was very healthy for a couple of days. And then he started to get very sick and nobody knew why. And it was a horrible situation. We were in the NICU with him. He was eight pounds. he was very healthy you know not a he wasn't a premature baby and he in any ways in any issues but he had a very rare rare rare disorder that they discovered through a lot of work and he couldn't he could live inside of me but he couldn't live on his own and so it's I mean I kind of put it in my head i can talk about it because i can

compartmentalize for the moment and and but i'll tell you you ask yourself like is there any worst tragedy in the world i don't know of one and how and earth like i was at nike I think, only a year. And I thought, God, how am I going to do this? And you dig deep and you realize that it's, again, I think another interesting part of it is, again, the human behavior and choice. My dad and I, we always talk about it, too. We believe we have the power of choice. Okay. So with all the tenacity, the inner strength, the passion and all of the, yeah, that, that, that volitional control that you've been able to harness and, and do really well for yourself and others and your family, what, and business, what, how do you get in your way? Oh, I can get in my own way. I can,

like my husband said earlier i said do he i cannot recognize like um i have a pretty high self-awareness in the moment i have high self-awareness about how i show up who i am i'm very very attuned uh most of the time but in certain ways like david will say to me you you you don't see your position you don't see where you are and so i can get in my own way about maybe worrying about something that's just not worth worrying about. Or, you know, I can get in my own way about time again, because I want things to move faster than they will. They just can't. And I have to remember, you know, even with my own boss here, he's tremendous, an icon. And

I say to him, like, I can't get there fast enough. And the sun only rises and set. There are only so many retail days. I wish there were more, you know, like he laughs at me, got to go slow to go fast. And so I get in my own way around time. Yeah, that's probably the biggest one. Okay. Lack, lack of time or people wasting time or not having enough time. And then if I, if I pivot just a little bit about confidence. And so if it is a cornerstone mindset skill, how do you develop or build confidence? I like to push it so I can see what my skills really are or what I have the propensity to learn. I come from a place that believing that just about anybody can learn anything if you give them the information and the way they'll understand in enough time. I believe that. I keep testing that theory every year with what I take on for challenges. And I say, wow, can I really do that? What about this? Let me push it a little

harder. And so that gives me confidence every time I learn and I grow. I say to myself, well, I could do more because I don't believe that there's a limit to it, except that you die at some point. And then it's a different kind of thing. Maybe I don't know. So I don't, I think confidence comes from the continued pressure testing of the edges. When I used to ski a lot or snowboarded a ton, you know, sometimes you're staring down a run and you're like, well, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not an, I'm not a, um, extreme athlete that just has that adrenaline thing. I don't have necessarily that, but I remember snowboarding and saying, if I don't commit, like if I don't commit to the edge, if I don't commit to the turn,

I'm basically going to hit the tree and die. I mean, that's how it's going to go. And I know every time my mind is engaged in it, I'd make the turn and I'd make the run. And, but it was, I had to be same with golf. I had to be very mentally present. That gives me, that's the confidence is like, I think that, that I can focus and do it once. Then I build on that and learn and keep the pushing, see where the edge is. Okay. So on, on that note, how would you finish this thought? It all comes down to? Oh, time. It all comes down to time. It comes down to the fact that this life is short.

It's really short. It's so short, Michael. It's so short. And I don't know what's next. So I can't speak to like, I don't know what I believe in that. I'm just saying that what I know to be true is a moment in time. This moment comes down to this moment in time. And then how about your definition of success? How are you operationalizing success? Success is?

Success is am I learning and growing? Am I learning and growing? And can I help others learn and grow and be okay? Can I help others feel okay with whatever the situation is? There's just no need for people to be freaking out about small stuff and even big stuff. I can help you. I've been there. Amazing. Is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most choice

choice yeah power of choice and then do you have a philosophy that's got in your life i think it's around choice but is there like like would you say my philosophy is my philosophy is that we are in control of our destiny and although there are energies that happen that feel control of our destiny. And although there are energies that happen that feel out of our control, what we do with them is ours to own. I could never have controlled what happened to my son. But what I chose to do to take care of him in the moment and lead my life after was in my control. So I don't want to say that everything's in your hands. Some things happen. But what you do with them is in your will.

And then what do you hope the next generation gets right? Oh, save this poor planet, I think. I mean, I've never thought I would be the person. You know, you grew up on the East Coast, it's sustainability is in front and center. I think about where we are right now, that I get very emotional about, you know, will the resources be here for my kids and their kids and onward? Can we please get a little more integrated and tolerant? I believe that the diversity in all of our thoughts brings innovation. Like I learned that at Nike, when you bring different leaders together, you bring together really cool solutions. And I don't like all this segmentation. I don't like all this. I don't know. It makes me very anxious.

So I I'm hoping for a little more tolerance and a little more earthiness. And yeah, beautiful. And then do women CEOs have to do it differently than male CEOs? You're so funny. Do it differently. Yeah, maybe. Let me think about that. My theory on that, my belief on that so far hypothesis is that when people are not the dominant group, there's a difference by nature, by definition.

And so with that, I would say yes, if you're not in the dominant group. If you are in the dominant group, maybe not. But I don't know if there's an absolute answer to it. I think it depends on company and culture. When I was going through this whole career path, again, my goal wasn't like I want to be a CEO, but people would feel the need to tell me, some people back in the day would say to me, you're never going to be a CEO. What do you mean I'm not going to be? Well, that's fine. But like, why do you say that? Well, you know, you got to be a bit of a jerk and you got to like, you know, you care too much. And, you know, it's really tough out there and a lot

of sharp elbows like that. And I'm not a pushover. I'm 5'10". I'm not like this little, I'm not quiet, you know, I'm not a wallflower. So I was always curious about that. And then I thought, maybe they're right. You know, maybe you got to be a little bit of like that. I'm not that, so I'm okay not being a CEO. Then something funny happened, which was being around people who created space at the table and more different ideas at the table. I realized that the next generation cared more about what I did believe in, which was empowering people and letting them take risks and helping them recover and like the EQ. I love that stuff. I love the human behavior, as I said. And so that I'm really fortunate to be here in this moment because it's valued and maybe it wasn't valued

20 years ago. So this is my time. So sometimes some of our successes lined up with our ability and sometimes it's the timing of the opportunity. I feel really lucky that my ability and the opportunity are intersecting right now because I think that my asset isn't that I can read a spreadsheet faster than anybody else and you know, whatever my, my asset is that I like to lead and inspire and help develop talent and teams. And right now that seems to be in favor. I'll take it. I'll take it. I, you know, I love, I love your answer because you know, what I was secretly hoping for is that you're going to weave in, you know, now it's just about being authentic, which is, I think what you said, it's not a, it's not a gender issue at all. It's

like what you just described to me is that authentically what matters most to you is, you know, connecting with people, the EQ, the emotional process of becoming risk-taking and recovery. And that's just kind of what I'm good at. People found that to be interesting and valuable to lead and build a company. And so I'm authentically myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was so hoping that you're going to say that. Because I don't, listen, I have no idea what it means to be a female CEO. How could I know? But I love it.

Okay. No, that's very true. One last thought about that. It's very interesting. Because being a leader here as a woman and being a leader at Nike as a woman are two different things. Yet I'm the same. And my core constitution will always be the same. And so I think you're 100% right.

It's about the often. I can't do it any other way. And it seemed to work both places. So that's it. I love it. Okay. Two-part question. And then we'll wrap this up.

Is when was the last time you witnessed or saw mastery? Oh, gosh. Witnessed or saw mastery? Oh, gosh. Witness or saw mastery. I have a good gift of seeing it quite often. Frankly, I was just, you know, I work with an icon. He has quite a mastery on a few things. I'm blessed to have time with him almost daily. So some things are pretty masterful right so it's like whoa that's big deal here being around athletes I was just at a one of the majors and I watching them hit the ball when you know how hard golf is if you don't know how hard golf is and you watch it it's interesting when you play golf and you can't believe what you can't do and these guys can it's beyond I mean it's like poetry to watch them hit the ball and the accuracy and the shaping of a shot and just their focus.

Okay. So how do you articulate it, define it, or think about the concept of mastery? The propensity to want to go deep and obsess and see no finish line about whatever your thought or idea is, the willingness to unpack it a million times and look at it from a million ways and never think that it's complete. You know, I mean, at some point you have to move forward, but you're never really done. It's the focus of an idea or an item or a concept that you're obsessed with and you're willing to be wrong about it and you're willing to evolve it and you're willing to see no finish line. Like I said, it's, it's to me, that's the definition is just no finish line to it. Complete and utter obsession.

I just want to thank you. Like I've, I've appreciated watching what you've been doing and I've thoroughly appreciated the intensity and energy and vulnerability and openness and courage and insight, all of that that's happened in this conversation. So those that are listening, please head over to iTunes, subscribe to Finding Mastery, write a review. It's greatly appreciated. It helps build the base that we're building. And then we've also got on Facebook, you can hit it on our website, which is findingmastery.net.

It's a community. It's a full tribe of people supporting each other on their path and on their journey of self-discovery towards mastery. And with that, I just want to seriously thank you and looking forward to watching more. Yeah. And Michael, I want to thank you. I think you have inspired me since the day we met. And I know you're inspiring millions every day. I channel your energy. I wish we had more time in person, but you're always in my thoughts of leadership and other. And please come visit us. I can't promise you models walking around the hallways here, but I can promise you a team that's all in.

I love that. Yes. And you know, it will happen at some point for sure. So let's do that. Okay. All right. I'll talk to you. Jan, all the best. Take care. Bye.

Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday.

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