Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Watermen Kai Lenny on Risk and Innovation

Episode Date: September 14, 2016

Kai Lenny is one of the world’s most complete watermen. Be it kiteboarding, windsurfing, stand-up paddleboarding, big-wave surfing, or anything else in the water, Kai does it, and does it well. In This Episode: -His parents leading by example rather than telling him what to do -Learning to rise to the occasion from an early age -Not being afraid to stand out -Fighting perfectionism -The difference between achievement and purpose -Nature understanding him the way people can’t -The powerful relationship he shares with music -When time stands still among the waves -What it’s like surfing Mavericks -The space between hesitation and commitment -Finding flow in the water -Setting goals and working harder than anyone else around him -How he keeps calm under water after a wipeout -Wishing he could turn it on and off better -Emotions as his greatest gift and downfall_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. Now this conversation is with Kai Lenny. And as you can tell, I was, and I was just like a little geek and a kid in this conversation. And Kai is known as a true waterman and he's a big wave surfer, serves really heavy, heavy, heavy surf. He's a

kite surfer, standup paddler, who by the way, has won the world title six times. And he's an innovator. He's just released a new product that is disruptive in the field of surfing. So we'll talk about that later. And really, this conversation is about innovation. So I hope that it doesn't get lost that this conversation, because he's so proficient in the ocean, other people can't relate. This is about innovation. This is about learning. This is about being a student from both people and mother nature. And we dive straight into one of my favorite concepts, the space between hesitation and commitment. And because his workplace is, and oftentimes can be very, very dangerous, he's got a rich point of view about that space. And on that note, there's so much to learn from people that excel and invite risk into

their life. And they figured out how to stay calm when it's dangerous. And at the same time, embrace that rugged, hostile, risk-taking environment and find increases moments of flow state. So there's this combination, this razor's edge that of calm and intense that they're able to find for survival and also for, um, innovation. So in this conversation, like it was just so fun for me and I'm excited to, I was excited to meet Kai and I'm excited to introduce him to you. Um, and I just really learned how he became a true waterman and how he has,

based on his environmental conditions, where he grew up, as well as his parents and his raising, and then how he figured it out along his own journey. So there's a few words that were thrown in this conversation that you might not know if you haven't surfed before. Little words like being in the barrel or the barrel. So the barrel in a wave, it's that part of the wave that's hollow. And it's that part of the wave where a surfer can stand inside. And it's a little bit like being in the belly of the wave. If you could imagine that, I'm sure you've seen it before in pictures and while in it, you know, if somebody is in it and standing in it, it can be the loudest and the most quiet place in the world. And it's just an absolutely surreal feeling.

And so we talk about that. We also talk about the lip as the part of the time or, um, in rhythm with the wave, you can surf that lip correctly to be able to generate speed, to turn off of it and to do aerials from all that good stuff. So it's the part of the wave that where the most energy is forming. And if you'd get just ahead of that, then you can do the turns and tricks and generate speed. But if you're behind it, it, it, it can hit you and knock you off your board and whatever happens after that. Okay. So not to be too geeky about it, but that's kind of what this conversation is about. And I just want to just take a quick moment and thank the sponsors for this. And

unbeknownst to them, unbeknownst to anyone at this point, there are no real sponsors here, is that I want to thank my parents, Bob and Donna. And both of them made a decision early in my life to be able to move to the West Coast. And they made a stretch and they went for it and they purposely bought a home that was right in front of the water so that I could surf and maybe even play in that environment. So I want to thank them for being able to line me up to be able to fall in love with Mother Nature and fall in love with the ocean and have it be such a central part of me. So mom, dad, thank you. And also just a general thanks for helping me understand roots and helping me understand how to go for it. So with that being said, thank you.

And let's jump right into this conversation with Kai Lenny. Kai, how are you? I'm doing good, Mike. How are you? I'm doing great, man. I've been looking forward to this phone call for a long time. So I'm stoked that you've carved out enough time in your schedule to be able to have this conversation and explore how you've been able to understand and do what you've been able to do. Yeah, thank you. I mean, this is a pleasure.

It's all mine. So what I do I think is pretty unique to what a lot of people do in sports and kind of a lot of people's approaches in life as well because I would say my greatest teacher and I guess the master I follow the most would be the ocean itself. I've learned so much from it. But at the same time, I've been punished from it. It's been like, I guess, a parent figure along with my epic parents that I was born into.

Okay, so what is your family structure like? Do you have any brothers, sisters? I have a younger brother who is wicked smart. He does all the sports I do. He's actually at university in San Diego right now. My parents first moved to Maui many years before either my brother and I were born. And they moved because of surfing and windsurfing. And basically, they went on vacation. They actually met each other here. And they never left. And I think growing up, that had an integral part of kind of who I was going to become

and where I was going to go in my life because they always wanted to go surfing and windsurfing. And as a little kid, I really had no choice but to go to the beach with them. And I could either get sandblasted in the face by Sam, you know, or I could go in the water myself and try it. And I just figured going out in the water and trying it was a lot more fun than actually just sitting on the sand because I've never been too fond of sand myself. So when was the first time you jumped? Was it windsurfing or surfing that you started with? Well, surfing first. I mean, I was riding on

the nose of my parents board is, you know, before I could could even remember but the first time i surfed by myself was when i was four years old and i caught my own waves and then when i was six i was old enough to carry a windsurfer and go out windsurfing as well as surf and then you know seven years old um stand-up paddling came into fruition and it was becoming i guess laird and dave kalama introduced it to the world again an ancient hawaiian sport that was, I guess, in hibernation. I started doing that kite surfing when I was nine. I wish I could have kite surfed earlier, but because of how big I was and how dangerous the equipment was, I had to wait until I was a little older, like nine years old, to get into it.

Then all the other stuff fell into place around the age of nine, which was spoil boarding, um, toe and surfing. And then, you know, any other sport in between, I was, you know, filtering in there, but the main sports, those are the times I learned. So your parents influenced it based on like, they're like, Hey, listen, as a family, we're into the water and we're into the ocean. So we're just going to, that's what we're going to do. Well, they never even really said that. They just did it. We just did it. I mean, it was, it was like, that was life.

You know, if a little kid, if you were to take me and put me into middle America or just anywhere else in the world, I wouldn't get it because, you know, when, when I say I'm a product of my environment growing up, that's all I knew. So that's all I knew. So that's how life is. And I think that showing by example is better than telling what to do because then if someone's always telling you how to do it, you know that there's maybe another door that's not being shown or something. But if I just visually see it growing up or I did visually see it growing up that was uh exactly what I saw and then what what do you remember from like some of the first times that you were on the nose of your parents at surfboard do you do you remember any of that I don't really remember being on the

nose of my parents board that much I do remember as a little kid thinking I was a lot – like before I was conscious at what age I really was, I felt like it's really weird. And maybe this is the same for other people. But like when I was spoken to by older parents, I don't think they knew I guess how conscious I actually was. Because most little kids, you talk to them and you're like, oh, is he going to remember me one day? But I remember just having – when I would see somebody, I felt like I'm the same person now as I was when I was a little kid, visually seeing them and recognizing them. But not being able to translate that into words to say hello or not know how. I haven't been taught that. But I just remember one particular situation where it all came true is I watched my dad reading a magazine and I'm like, well, I want to read a magazine too. And I remember sitting in a chair

and sitting down and reading a magazine and sitting there as if I would sit there today, like, you know, in my conscious state right now, that's how I would be visually looking at the magazine. But then I saw a photo of it and I was like two years old. And if I was an adult, like an adult now looking at a two-year-old doing that, I wouldn't think they'd have that level of consciousness or that, I guess, that brain power quite yet. They weren't totally developed. But that's what is fascinating to me is I think I was like – I was smarter but I just – smarter than I thought I was. But I didn't know how to convey it to others at that age, obviously. Okay. So what, that's awesome. That's, I've got a young one. I've got a seven

year old and it reminds me that like, um, he knows more than he's letting me know, not because he's being crafty, just because, you know, there's so much happening internally that. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. Okay. Um, Okay. What did you first remember noticing in the ocean that, whoa, this is kind of scary? Well, I just remember, you know, I would say my first experience surfing when I was four years old, I remember we were at the beach on the South Shore at a place called Thousand Peaks or Uke Mahame Beach. And it's just this beautiful beach on the South Shore. There's like a little outer reef that has great waves, really a family place where when I was really little, we'd go with friends and barbecue and kids would be there and all the parents would be surfing and parents would take turns watching the

Groms. And I remember my parents, I had been, you know, getting pushed into waves by my parents, but I never surfed by myself. And I remember they said, okay, here's a surfboard on the beach. We're going to go surfing. So they both went. I was left on the beach just kind of waiting, cruising. Then I saw my board and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll paddle. I'm playing in the sand and it's all warm and I feel good. I'm like, oh, I'll go paddle.

I'm just going to paddle up and down the beach. So I paddled in a 50-yard radius up and down the beach like four or five times. Could you swim or were people watching you? I could swim. You could swim? There was parents on the beach and they were looking. They actually didn't see me do this because there were so many – everyone was doing their own thing or whatever.

But I was a very good swimmer at a young age. I could carry my own if I wanted to. That was my self-confidence going out because I've always approached things I know I can get myself out of if I get in a bad situation. The reason I ask is because every time I'm on the North Shore or somewhere on the islands, I'm blown away by these little kids, like four, five, six years old on the shore break. I don't know. It seems like six inches right on top shore break, like with, I don't know, it seems like six inches right on top of coral reef where they're just, they're ripping, like they're just

figuring it out. And, and I don't know, I, I, I watch it and I'm like, my goodness, it's unbelievable. The amount of trust that the family system has for these kids to be, you know, on a, you know, not a heavy shore break, but certainly a short break that has some consequences to a six-year-old or a four-year-old? I think that the reason why it's different, it's just like you're born into an environment and that seems normal. So as a little kid, it's not scary or anything because it's just normal and you see your friends doing it and you have to you you see your friends doing and you have to learn to rise to the occasion okay i always notice that in hawaii is like learning how to rise to

this even though it's scary it's like oh but that's what you do okay so so let's put a hold on that because that point i think is something that you have been a beacon of is rising to the occasion i want to know how you figure that out because that's something that, um, I think a lot of us can learn, especially from ocean sports is that mother nature is relentless and brutal and inconsistent and swift and there's real consequences. And if you hesitate, um, you might save your life, but you also might miss. And, you know, so there's the idea of rising to the occasion, you understand it. And we can all rise to occasions.

I think, yeah, that's for me. My whole life I guess and you brought it out was my whole life has been about rising to the occasion. Whether it is in the ocean, doing the sports where I'm faced with a scenario where I can get the greatest benefit or I could run away. Running away always seemed like not an option because my lofty goals when I had these legendary people around me, Robbie Nash, Laird Hamilton, all these who looked to be superheroes for me at the time, they were all doing these things. Here, I definitely took a different route than most kids because i did more water sports than just surfing most kids here will just surf and it's kind of like surfing is a very tribal sport it's very clicky and i was never a part of any one of those clicks because i was always surfing but then i would go windsurfing i would go kiting

and you know it's oddly enough it was kind of frowned upon to do all these sports just because was it wasn't cool or whatever. But I could care less. So it was about me overcoming – Wait, wait, wait. What do you mean you could care less? I mean I could care less about being a part of a clique or having to – Why is that?

Because that is such a central motivation for so many people, especially at a young age, is that need to belong and that need to fit in and that need for assurance that you're part of the tribe and part of the pack. You're okay, which is a trap, a total trap. But if we pull back just on this concept just a little bit, how did you not care about what other people thought of you well because um i all i all that really mattered to me was the experience that i was gaining from these other sports and i almost didn't understand why they wouldn't want to do what i was doing i'm like why wouldn't you want to do what i'm doing it's literally i'm i'm approaching the ocean in so much ways and i'm harnessing the wouldn't you want to do what I'm doing? It's literally, I'm approaching the ocean in so much ways and I'm harnessing the power of the wind. And I'm literally going, you know, when I was, you know, eight years old, I was going to an outer reef outside my house.

That's a mile out to sea and windsurfing by myself, you know, and because I think the ocean was my companion in a way, or it was my friend. And Laird Hamilton told me, he told me when I was really little, he's like, Kai, you have to learn to be your own best friend. And I never understood that. And then when I was out in the ocean, I understood what he meant, which was a lot of times in the ocean and surfing, you're very much by yourself. Big wave surfing, you're always by yourself, even if there's people around you. So you're very much by yourself big wave surfing you're always by yourself even if there's people around you so you got to learn to be accepting of yourself and um and then i think as well as you know being able to walk alone and i always kind of took that because i almost was like i think i was a little stubborn to um my path as well like i was like no i have

to do this because this is what I'm going to do. I want to be a world champion in this and I want to do all this. I want to be the best waterman I could ever be. And so I think that stubbornness helped me overcome the avoiding being a part of any clique or caring because I was like, no, that's not my goal. And I could visually, from a young age, I could always see, I see i'm like god these guys are blowing it like just because they're hanging out like in this click they're actually suppressing their full potential because they're afraid of being made fun of or blah blah blah blah oh wow what a what a cool gift and where did you who helped you with that either the setting of the goal or okay so i've got like three thoughts so let me

let me take a minute is that i'm not sure if you love the way it felt to go explore and to be with your companion mother nature or if you love the way it felt for progression and maybe they're the same thing or close to the same or if you're a goal focus like i'm going to become the best and for me to become the best i need to go, you know, refining my craft in different ways. Or sorry for the third option is that your parents somehow, or influencers like Laird. And I don't know if a lot of people know who Laird is, but obviously you and I do, but we'll talk about him in a second, but maybe it was leaders or thought leaders that you were surrounded by that i think i think it really stemmed from a few things there's a spot here at hoquipa um at my home break hoquipa um called

pavilions and when i was growing up it was it was really kind of like it hoquipa means you know uh a welcoming place like a welcome in hawaiian it's like a welcoming like bay basically and um and but we always i always like looked at that place as a sunny place for shady people oh my god i gotta tell you can i tell you a story will you for will you remember um your answer to my my question okay all right so let me tell you a quick story while we're on hukipa is that uh first time on maori i i was like um hold on i was like 17 and i i flew by myself with my buddy and we couldn't rent a car we couldn't do any of that stuff you know and so my buddy's dad lived there and he was a um a biker on the island and so he said he's you know we brought our surfboards and we're going to go surf

and he drops us off at hquipa and it was raining. Pavilions probably. What's that? At pavilions probably at the top of Huquipa when you first drive in. Yeah, there's like a right point. Yep. Yeah. And he drops us off and we didn't have but $4 in our pocket.

There was no food. And we looked at him and it was raining. And they're like, hey, when are you coming back? Because we didn't have a car or any transportation. And he said, I'll be back later. And you're like, okay. It was not a nice place to be it was really like really really heavy and it's vibes oh geez yeah so i think that's what like there's two different um and i'll get back onto the subject or the thought that i had was um there's like different types of energy. You know, you have like,

I guess the human element of the energy, which could be at pavilions. I always found negative, especially negative when I was growing up. And you know, then you have a Piahi, which is a Hawaiian kind of like ocean mountain energy, this mana that isn't human. And I think that's, it's a more pure energy. But going through pavilions, I remember growing up, my dad would point out a few key guys that were the best surfers in Hawaii at the time, and they lost their path to drugs. And he wouldn't say, he never told me, or my mom actually never told me not to do drugs or not to party or not to drink.

It was more – he would show me examples. He'd be driving. He's like, see that guy right there? He could have been world champion. The guy we're talking about, he served to Kipa all the time. He was there. Yeah. We both know.

We're talking about the same guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's still an amazing surfer but he could have been what Andy Irons was. He was beating all those guys. But he got, I think, too stuck in the clique and too stuck in Hokipa. And, you know, unfortunately, his goals and his aspirations changed over time because of other influencers who couldn't do what he could potentially do you know they he got brought down instead of risen up um and so with that being said

like i myself because i the word world champion had such impact because i grew up knowing robbie who won 24 world championships in windsurfing he's known as the king or the living legend in windsurfing. Same as kiting as well. But he was such a big influence and a mentor that it was always about world titles or how like that was a main goal. And the word world title was like the pinnacle you could be in these sports to me. And so I was not going to sacrifice anything.

And to that point, you know, um, growing the rest of my years until now growing up and continuing on, obviously, but like, I never drank, I didn't even really drink until I actually don't even drink. Maybe I'll have like a glass of red wine to celebrate for someone's victory or whatever, but I just choose not to drink alcohol for no more reason than I just have never done it. I've always been super kind of pure in my pursuit, but I never tried any drugs, smoked weed or anything, which is a big thing here on Maui, as you know, Maui, Waui. And then so like all these little things, it was all shown by example by my dad and my mom just showing me examples and never telling me not to do it.

And I never wanted to disappoint them. I never did want it to disappoint my idols and mentors. And so I really stuck to my path. And I think because they taught me how to be really goal oriented, and I was born very goal oriented. And being a perfectionist that I am, I think I'm my own worst enemy most of the time, because I'm such a perfectionist. I like to clean, keep my room and everything that I do very tight and orderly. I like to know where everything is. I like to do everything myself in terms of transferring of equipment, dealing with equipment, whatever, just my daily life. I think that was all stemmed from my early beginnings, having structure but then having goal-oriented ideas. Okay. All right. Brilliant. I want to come back to the idea that about perfectionism and worst known enemy, because I hear that a lot from people that have achieved

much is that perfectionism got them somewhere. And then at some point it starts to wear a bit thin. And I, you know, I don't know if you're at that place. I don't want to presuppose or suppose something. No, it's actually interesting. I noticed, I would say when I was 22, because I had already become a seven-time world champion when I was by the age of 22, you know. Isn't that a really amazing thought? When I've been tracking you and following you, it's like, golly. I mean, I don't know. Tell me if I'm way off on this.

Maybe I'm like literally way off. But it seems to me is that you're one of the best watermen in the world. And you might say I can't say yes to that. But at the same time, you've got this incredible future ahead of you as well. And so are you categorized in that vein of being one of the world's great watermans? I've noticed people have referred to me that more than, more than ever, you know, I've always in Hawaii, you know, as you know yourself, it's a right to be called that. And unfortunately in the last, I would say past six years, that term has been thrown around very

loosely for, you know, describing a lot of people who actually aren't true watermen to me a true waterman is somebody who can do everything in the ocean at the highest level you know it could be the best in the world at everything which is i still feel like i'm not at that level yet um you can survive off the ocean and you understand the ocean in ways people ordinary people and people of singular sports cannot. And it's really like a lifelong pursuit in a way. And I feel like I'm getting closer and closer. But for my personal thought process, I don't think I'm even near where I should be or could be.

But when I was 22 years old, I noticed a defining switch. I won seven world titles. I've gotten second in the world actually I missed out on the world championship in kite surfing by which is very frustrating 0.2 in the final it was like a 0.2 score and it was uh you know that's judge sports for example you know but with that all being said I noticed all of a sudden I started like gaining a little bit of anxiety because I feel like all the world titles gone once I've gotten them I've kind of a sudden I started like gaining a little bit of anxiety because I feel like all the world titles have gone. Once I've gotten them, I've kind of forgotten about them.

I forgot I went to win them unless it kind of gets sparked in my head because I'm already moving on to the next and I want to achieve something more. And when you I think you hit that level, it's like, OK, what can I do next and where can I elevate myself? Do I need to switch sports to make it hard again because I need a new goal or something? And it feels like I almost at 22, I almost felt like I hit like a roadblock where all of a sudden I'm like, God, I need inspiration. I love what I'm doing equally, but I need some I need a goal that if I won or if I achieved it, I would feel like it was, um, you know, something that, that I didn't think was possible. And I, and this year I achieved that with surfing jaws, for example, you know, I got some of the best waves of the winter for myself, but then I think of many sessions and I pushed myself to that, that level and stuff and still pushing it. But, um, I think it's just

really weird. It's like, I was like, God, am I having like a quarter life crisis or something, you know, which is totally wrong, but it's not, I think it's more having this, like achieve so much at a young age that it's like kind of this anxiety that

it's like, God, I need some purpose. I need to feel some purpose. And I found that to combat that anxiety, I really focused in on visualization of my sports. So when I start getting anxiety, if I'm not doing the sports, I'll visually just think and dream about how I want to get better and the tricks I want to do. And for a while there, I think I was getting this – I felt like I needed to prove something to other people the last few years.

And then I'm like, how do to prove something to other people the last few years or, you know, and then I'm like, how do you prove something to yourself? You know, like the way people always have worded it to me never made sense. And I figured it out for myself was visually, you know, conceptualizing moments that I want to achieve.

And then when I go out and do them, that is the satisfying and that's motivating. That's like my new motivation. That's how I get better is just by little, these little steps through visualization. And then when I achieve it, then I visualize something and that keeps me going kind of. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From

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Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20 off would you be open for for some thoughts that i have about um the arc and the dance that you're in right now yes yeah okay um so you said like some stuff that's amazing and one of the pieces was that you're this quarter life crisis and because you've experienced and achieved so much is that

that achievement as in success has actually become part of the trap yeah and you know once once a dog you know hunting dog finds the rabbit or finds the you know the fox that he's been hunting is it um it can it can actually shift and alter you alter how he understands what to do next. And some dogs, race dogs, so to speak, they don't race as well anymore. And that's a little bit of what you're talking about because your focus has been, it's what it sounds like to me at least, has been about achievement. And that's very different than purpose. And I think that you've now achieved global awareness and you've achieved some of the biggest stuff in the world and you've won world championships.

That achievement is not enough. No. Achievement will not fulfill you. And even in your own words, it's like you forget about it. It's wonderful. It's the process and the straining and the striving and the trusting and letting go and living on the edge of capability for progression that is really important to achieve. But achieving alone at some point becomes really hollow. Yeah, that's what I've noticed because even in my training, I've always trained, I've always prided myself on training harder than anybody that I ever compete against.

And, you know, working the hardest, I would say staying the most true to those goals, but you know, I've done, I've achieved so much. I've gone through the process of building myself up to win and then winning that when I'm training now, it's like going through the motions more. It's not like, all right, you know, and it's, I was like, God, what's wrong with me? And I think you hit the nail on the head, which is just that little bit of hollowness when he went, it's like, all right, you know, and it's, I was like, God, what's wrong with me? And I think you hit the nail on the head, which is just that little bit of hollowness when he went, it's like, woohoo, I won. Cool. I did it again. What now? Yeah. Because it doesn't add enough to the depth that you're looking to pursue in life. And so when you said the word purpose, I think that you're right on the money.

And it's like in early frames where winning is important and demonstration of mastery is important, but then that's a misguided approach, I think. And I'm not saying I'm remiss from it myself, but I'm just finding and suggesting that connecting to something larger and bigger and that makes a difference in the lives of others around you or the planet or the globe. And you're using this podium that you have for something that is larger than you could ever imagine. Then that starts to get really interesting. You know? And so I don't know. I don't have.

I can't give you that answer but i can easily identify the difference between achievement and purpose absolutely i mean yeah i think i'm in a gray area now because i still love to compete because i always feel like it brings the best out of my abilities cool um and that's kind of always why i've gone towards competing as well as wanting to win. But yeah, I guess it's just trying to find purpose. And the way I've actually tried to combat, I guess, that hollowness is, for example, throwing myself into big wave scenarios that seem so, like if I came back to the beach, so few people would ever do it in a way.

You know what I mean? And so to me, it felt like that was an achievement, just being out there and pushing the boundaries of what I think I could actually do. And coming in going, wow, I really didn't go out there thinking I could ever have done that, you know? Kai, what do you think about this? Is that you talked about the relationship with nature and the ocean as a companion.

And part of being in a relationship like a romantic relationship is about intimacy and intimacy the way i think about it is like saying the difficult things you know to another person like revealing and being vulnerable and saying the difficult things over time and it requires incredible presence and and again vulnerability to do so but what if what if like what you're doing is creating a depth of a relationship between you and your companion at this point in the ocean? And risk and danger and hostility and ruggedness are all parts of the vulnerability that you need to explore with that companion.

And I wonder if you say, oh my God, that sounds stupid. Or if that's like, oh, okay, well, that's not about purpose, but it's about another way to look at what you're doing. I think, you know, you brought up a good point and I can feel it too, is that the more I go out and do these things or and achieve stuff in terms of like in big wave, the big wave world, because once you get out in big waves, you're really on your own. And I feel like there's a lot of times where I want to be actually kind of more on my own program and even more of like in my own, like kind of a hermit, but not a hermit, you know what I mean? And I think it's just the fallout from doing some of this stuff like this. So you mentioned, you know, that I think like I always feel like I actually always felt like people didn't fully get what I'm trying to convey through words. I never felt like words or even my actions were good enough

to show like what I'm trying to get across. You know, I always feel like this I can't get it always out right and with big wave surfing in particular I've noticed in the this especially the past few years is that I just feel like as I get older I feel like more and I can't more and more people don't understand really understand who I am or what I'm doing you know like it's just this weird like bizarre kind of like, they say they know, but I just know that they just don't know what I'm like trying to convince or tell or the passion that I feel sometimes for something, you know, it's like, God, you're saying yes, but I know you don't get it. And then I fall back into waves like that, or whatever.

And I feel like, all right, you know, there's like, it's something in the water, something in the waves, the way it's breaking understands my understands me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've, there's this thought that bangs around in my head is that, uh, the pursuit of mastery is often a lonely journey, but we can't do it alone. And, you know, do know, do you have any response to that, that there's a loneliness to summiting, surfing mavericks at what you've been able to do and trying to convey the way that that fear and adrenaline and trust and risk-taking and excitement um all all kind of rushed together it it's just impossible to really describe or convey what the feeling in the moment is um it's just like it's you don't

know what it's like to get barrel it's like the classic saying only a surfer knows the feeling right but then only a big wave surfer knows the feeling. And then it's pretty lonely because then you like, I would say just a lot of the stuff I do is very, I need the help of other people to do what I do because just being a pro athlete myself, I need like my dad or my manager to, my dad being my manager to help me and then all this stuff.

But it's just, it's very interesting because like as as i get better i feel like more of a disconnect but i still but i i still need my support team there but i still i feel like i'm just like kind of like you know a planet going around the sun slowly working away a little bit wider a little bit wider just over time you know it's just weird i don't know and uh i guess it's just indescribable have you i think that some of the great writers talk about the same concept that we're talking about right now is that it's hard to put into words love and it's hard to put into words romance and fear and like it's hard to put in words. And I love music.

And Cat Stevens has a line that I love, which is, I listen to my words, but they fall far below. So not even the listening to the words, let alone the sharing of the words, can capture the allness of what happens inside. And is that what we're talking about? Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you like music i love music i listen to that's like my number one thing that i'm if i'm not if i even if i'm in a room by myself or whatever i'm always listening to music because i feel like it brings out um certain it helps me personify, I guess, the moods or the, the, just the feeling I have inside, like brings them out even more. Like if, if I'm getting pumped up to go, let's say do some boxing training, or if I'm going to go to the gym, I would listen to,

you know, hip hop, rap music, go in big waves. I'll listen to, you know, I guess either rock or kind of bounce between hip hop and rock. so like whatever i'm doing and then i'll even listen to just classical music when um when i want to go out and do paddle training because i can find this rhythm within that classical music um that will help me stay calm but very precise in my movements and so i mean if you go in greater detail about that but i music's definitely and i'm not i wouldn't the only my only regret is not being more musically talented which or more into music able to do it myself because music's such a key role and i guess my thought process because when i'm riding a giant wave i'm not i'm i have a song in my head and if it sounds

like i have bows headphones on when i'm on a wave, you know, like for example, there's this, uh, I don't know if you saw the latest point break, but they made the song, um, for the film for the end, it's called, um, still breathing. Um, and it's by dig the kid. And I'd never heard of the band or, you know, the song before. And it describes big wave surfing so perfectly that when I'm in the wave, I'll hit I would say the climax of the song or the highest point of the song

at the height of that moment. Bottom turning right before you're about to get a barrel and needing that extra motivation. That one chorus that has the most punch will hit me in the mind. And I'll be in the barrel, and I'll be listening to this song, it'll sound like speakers are around me. And, and every time I go out to session, and I've become, I've been able to, I guess, switch between songs per wave.

So I'll have like five songs in my head, and I can have them play in my head. And I can't actually like say the lyrics out loud, but I can hear each word like through my brain and I'll just be like, okay, this way is coming and I'll switch a song to the wave kind of like this wave looks like this song and I'll be surfing and I'll have this song in my head and I'll kick out the next wave. I'll really need to muster up some something deep down that power within and i'll listen to a very motivating soundtrack or whatever you know um and uh in particular in particular what what are some of the songs that come to your mind i mean coming to my mind it's uh like i always like i've always liked action films so sometimes i'll like the soundtrack

that let's say hans zimmer will do or a john williams in the latest star wars or something you know you think of a moment in a movie and you're like god like putting that soundtrack to my own life but then like i'm gonna just look up real quick some of the songs because i have so much music that i go through that truthfully it kind of trips me out that I can't even remember one particular song. But like looking through here now, like for, you know, for a rap song right now that I'm really into and I like it because of the flow, not so much the words. It's never about the words in rap music for me. It's about the flow and the, I guess, the beat behind it. But it's this random rap group that just started the the beat behind it but it's this this random

rap group that just started they're called flat push zombies and the song's new phone who dis and it's just it's just the song itself has this crazy rhythm that i find very connecting to on a wave because he's flowing through the the track so well and at such a consistent pattern that I can follow it to a wave, into my approach on a wave. So, okay, is there a particular wave that you surfed to that music? I mean, for example, I only found this song a week ago. Okay. But I was windsurfing out at Hoquipa.

And Hoquipa is an interesting wave because it's very peaky. And the way you approach that wave is you you you're really patient you wait for the wave to really line up you go to the flats of the wave windsurfing bottom turn you go square up to the lip you hit it your next turn you immediately go into a trick which would be like a wave 360 an alley-oop surfing um come out of that do a big gap then there'd be a huge section from you of me. You'd come up underneath the lip. And for some reason, that song, I can match the rhythm of the wave with that song in my head,

which will help me push harder through a turn or explode off the lip at the right time. Really cool. So that's kind of how I've applied that song in particular. And actually, I was listening to Nirvana a lot for Jaws. And the one song I was listening to was Lithium, which I always found was a very good track for being out there. And then when I really, sometimes I'll get so overly amped on the water or actually on the sand before I go in the water that I'll actually shoot myself in the foot because I'll be trying to overcompensate or try to push too hard. And in these surf sports, it's about being more relaxed.

The harder you push, the slower you go. And if you just relax and you kind of lighten your feet and lighten your approach, you're going to be doing stuff you wouldn't be doing otherwise. And the two songs I've listened for that would be Tears for Fears, Everybody Wants to Rule the World, and then Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody. Oh my goodness, that's too much. Yeah, and so like just random.

And then I watched the one actually orchestrated soundtrack that I'm really into listening to right now, which finds my calm but finds my inner mana or power is, you know, the Revenant orchestrated music. I just feel like that hits a chord for me when I'm out in the water and I can really come into myself and see myself for who I really am, which will help me, I guess, do what I do better. I don't know. That's really cool. Is there, is there a moment in time that comes to mind for you that really captures, um, you know, you at your best? Um, I, you know, I, I, I, I true though, I'm kind of, it's disappointing,

but at the same time, I guess it shows who I really am is when, when I've served Jaws and I would say I've gone most i've gone you know i would say you know 50 to 60 waves that people would claim would be the best way of life maybe more but i mean i'm considering this in the group of big wave elite like i've caught waves where people would kick out and they'd go onto their social media and write best wave of my life. I've never kicked out of any wave anywhere and gone. That was the best wave of my life. I just never have felt that, that, that, that much. I would say the most impactful wave was my first wave. And getting back to that story was, um, that's that wave I paddled. I paddled from when I was along the beach to this wave that was, you know, was another 100 yards down the beach.

And it was maybe only head high for a four-year-old. But when I remember paddling in, I remember time slowed down and the waves strawed up. And I remember standing up and feeling like I was free-falling into this wave and the rush I had when I went down. I think that was probably the best wave of my life because it's what started the whole thing. And that feeling I had from that wave is what I get now when I surf jobs. The exact same feeling. Like I would say even that first wave I caught has just as much of that same, you know, like gasping sensation of dropping in. I had one wave in particular at Mavericks that was almost identical to the wave I first caught when I was four years old, which was I was free falling into

this wave and the wave was so smooth. I couldn't feel, I had no sensation of speed except for the movement around me. I felt like I was in a stationary position dropping in, but I wasn't feeling like I was moving at all. I just felt like the wave was moving around me and everything was happening around me I was just standing still in time and space and then you know that and then I thought I'm turned out of that moment but it was just that was the exact same feelings when I was four years old except it was a lot bigger wave do you have a video of that by chance of uh that way that you just described? My first wave? No. Actually, I have a picture I could send you of it.

Actually, I'll show you right now. It's on my phone. I always keep it closed. It was probably my single highlight of the year was surfing Mavericks. That particular wave gave me a feeling that I really wanted to seek out more. Was that this year? That was this year. That was a couple months ago actually.

Let me see if I can find it. So okay, this is it. And you can really, this picture captures it pretty well. I don't know if you can see it that well over this but. Oh, Jesus. So you can see how I'm, I just feel like everything's happening around me. I'm just kind of standing there and it's so smooth i don't even feel the board moving because i'm going i'm moving obviously but you know i don't feel it because it there's no chatter there's no

speed bump there's nothing to to equate to speed cool man definitely send that and we'll post that like right now when you're telling the story. And then if you can deconstruct that just a little bit, what was the moment before that when you're sitting out back by yourself or with a couple other people and you saw this mountain of black rise from the back of the sea and you had a decision to make. So what that was, I remember that session, everyone was saying this is probably the best session ever at a Mavericks, the best ever. And I remember I caught a couple good waves,

but nothing that I was like, you write home about. And I felt this pressure, this urgency. I wanted to catch the biggest wave of the day if it came to me. If I was gonna go how big was it I mean it was 25 foot Hawaiian 30 foot Hawaiian so that was like 50 to 60 foot waves we were paddling into but it was just it wasn't so much how big it was it was how perfect it was the wave was perfect um and I remember that wave in particular I had been um fortunately one of the most legendary locals out of Mavericks who's been surfing there longer than I've been alive, 25 years.

His name's Grant Washburn. Um, and he told me the lineup and with Mavericks is different than Jaws because at Jaws, the, it's, you know, two football fields that are moving. Um, but then the wave can break out here. It could break inside there, but at Mavericks, there there's a ledge and when the wave hits that ledge it'll break there every time it'll just be bigger and taller and nastier um and he's like dude sit on the ledge and it was a full yoda moment almost you know it was like straight out of star wars or he's like everyone was going and he was like it's like patience just sit shoot it in the knees that's

what he kept telling me shoot it in the knees. That's what he kept telling me, shoot it in the knees, which what it means is when you paddle into waves at Mavericks, you have to start paddling in at the bottom of the wave because by the time you stand up, you'll be at the top because it'll suck up so quick. And so it's a different approach to surfing any other wave anywhere else because you have to take off in a place where you think you're going to get pounded. And I remember everyone paddled out to the peak and I remember just thinking, okay, sit as cold

as ice. Just sit there. And it looks like it's going to kill me, but I'm going to be in the spot. I just know it. And I remember one guy in particular turned across and tried paddling and couldn't catch it. And I remember I was in the spot and I just was all by myself. There was nobody around. The 50 people that were out there were outside of the wave. And all of a sudden I was out of Mavericks completely alone. And I remember just whipping the board and going, I had like that one decisive moment where I could either approach it tentatively or I could just like, you know, bear, just grind into this thing as hard as I could because throwing caution to the wind. And I knew I was in such a right position I could because throwing caution to the wind and I knew

I was in such a right position I could throw caution to the wind so I just started grinding and paddling as hard as I've ever paddled and as the wave picked me up I remember standing up and just holding my position and locking my body and going okay I'm in a movie now I'm going along for the ride and let's watch this happen and um the only way I could be I don't know if you ever watched that movie surfs up with your kid but um there's a one wave when when the the penguin drops in and it's during the contest and the wave breaks and he looks back at the barreling wave and he makes it out of the white water well that was the exact visual I had dropping in the wave I was dropping in for so long that by the time the wave landed it was just so angry in

slow motion i bottom turned avoid the lip and the thing spat uh the hardest way that's ever spat i saw chunks of water this big coming out that would have it would have hit me it would have broken my arm or something or tomahawked me across the water because it was so violent but i was in this kind of in between all this chaos but in in this calm you know that the calm I was telling you about but there was all this anger and narrowly like kind of this evil around me um and that was that was I kicked out ear to ear I had confidence more like that it's such a great capture of exactly what it feels like to be on the ledge and to make that commitment. And can you pull apart that moment where I call it the space

between commitment and hesitation. And that moment, I think you're going to know exactly what I'm talking about, where you could have pulled up or you could have, I think you were talking about like bear or like really scratch into it. Can you pull apart that moment just a little bit? Like what allowed you to commit as opposed to hesitate? Well, you know, I know it happens within, I would say, for me, I've figured it out. Like my decision making is made within, I would say, a half a second where I decide either not to go or to push over but for me inside

my head it feels like 10 solid seconds that I have yes that's time to decide even though it happens I decide that quick but I like time slows down so much I'm paddling and you know that feeling when you kind of like I what's the word for when when you feel like your lungs are coming up and you're like you know like when you first jump into an ice bath or something. You're like, you know that feeling? I'm paddling in and in big waves, I'll feel that. That'll be my hesitation. Then I'll have the person inside of me or in the back of the head that will either, that will come out of, you know, the darkness and just drop the hammer and just go. And as soon as I know for sure that

I'm going, everything just becomes calm and drops away. And it's the, it's the most calm feeling I ever feel is right before I drop into something so chaotic. But it's hard to get to that point sometimes because sometimes that hesitation can override and then I'll be kicking myself in the butt super hard the next opportunity I get I will not even hesitate but that time and space is about 10 seconds within a millisecond that I'll either accept that rising lungs or heart or I will I'll have that that, I call it the wolf, kind of come out of the back of my head or wherever it lives and just throw the hammer down, and that's my decisive person.

So have you figured this out on your own, or have you read about it, or has people taught you about it? No, that's just all on my own self-experience. I feel like it's hard to talk to a lot of people. I mean, I'm really open to talking to people about it, about what I feel in my experiences. But I always have never felt like they understood. So I always feel like I'm just kind of spinning my wheels here, trying to articulate these characters in my head or the this the wolf that i have um that helps me get over the ledge or do things that wouldn't normally do so before we get into the wolf i

want to stay with this um expanded moment the space between um paddles the space between commitment hesitation and something that i've certainly noticed with people that are masterful at their craft is that those spaces and the transitions between those spaces are expanded in such a way that it feels like they're playing a different video game. They're playing a different game where they're working inside of that space as opposed to what everyone else is watching, which is like frame one and frame two and frame three, is that they're in between there really manipulating and making all of these micro decisions because they're present enough to be able to do it. They don't have to think about, is my arm paddling effectively? Is my body on my stringer? All of that is like nonsense. It's all automatic by that point. And especially doing it in a rugged

environment. So it's in that space that you just described that I've heard over and over and over again from people that are masterful. And I don't know, for me, it's that space that I relish. Yeah, you know, I understand what you're saying. Because I, for example, pulling into a barrel out of Jaws, the barrel itself itself you're only in for maybe three seconds but it feels like minutes for me like i'm everything i'm pulling into this barrel i always remember my bottom turning going oh my god what it's like it looks like the collapsing of the world it's like the world's falling on top of me and just bottom turning into it and the scariest

part for me is bottom turning into the barrel because once I'm in the barrel, I feel so comfortable and confident inside and it's life's out of my hands at that point. The only thing I can do is stand there and hold my line and kind of go for the ride. But when I'm in a barrel, it's like a vortex in time. I feel like, like I get into this vortex and while everyone's experiencing different time outside of the barrel, I'm moving at a different speed through time and space. I'm literally experiencing, I would say, minutes versus people watching me in seconds. That's kind of how I feel. I feel like I do my best, obviously, when you talk about like I just let me do me. I don't think about how I should look, how I should compare myself, how people see how I'm doing it.

It's like going through the motions and just letting it all happen and that's it. That is the most purifying feeling in the world. I guess the feeling I could best describe it as is like in that moment, nothing else exists, which is the best feeling in the world. That moment of nothing else matters. It's because, yeah, right. Well, that's full presence, right? Complete presence. And the same thing happens with like really heavy, intimate relation conversations.

Same thing happens with lovemaking. Same thing happens with when poetry is being expressed you know when people are really in it and it's i think as fellows surf you know surfers like we we think that it's just surfing but it's like it's in every walk of life and it's the ability to have such command over self over craft over mind and body um perhaps it's just like a it's like that's like just trying to find the trigger for that presence you know like for me the trigger is a 50 foot wave that really does it maybe most people it's love or intimacy or conversation or whatever but that's the i think, my main draw to it

because I always feel petrified going out and surfing big waves. I'm as scared as the guy watching on the beach. But that's my only, I guess that's the only place I've ever experienced that presence anywhere. Maybe the only other one would be jumping on my wind surfer 50 or 60 feet and doing uh you know a double rotation where you know you lose the weightlessness feeling and you you slow time down that way but those are the only few places where i've felt that level of consciousness or presence or whatever so a lot of people ask me and i want to ask you the same question is that a

lot of people ask me like mike what is to ask you the same question, is that a lot of people ask me, like, Mike, what is it about these guys that work in such dangerous environments? Are they crazy? And the answer is obviously, in my mind, no. But I'd love to hear how you answer that. been a very average person you know I've never felt I never felt talented you know I always felt like all my friends around me were more talented I think my only thing that I always did was to get where I'm at is just work harder than everybody but in terms of talent level in terms of you know fear of other things I guess I've just figured out how to get around those things because I can trust in the outcome, you know, and that's why I would go surf big waves. But, you know, I would say I'm as average as any human on the planet. I would say I'm, you know, there's nothing really special about me, except for, I guess, you know, my ability to want to work hard and to never give up basically. And it's

cliche to say never give up, but I have such a hard time letting go of my, my goals. Like if I write it down on a list, I have to do all the lists, all those items I have to accomplish them. And I think that's mainly because of growing up, um, having a strong worth at work ethic, um, and, and having to, not having to force myself to, cause you don't have to, but like, um, the only option for me was to accomplish what I wanted to accomplish. The only option would be to, uh, to work harder than everybody else. And that's my, I guess that's my only gift, which I wouldn't even consider a gift.

It's, it's within everybody. Finding master is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the

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better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And so, okay, if we shift gears a little bit, which is, you know, you having the opportunity to ask other masters of craft, you know, how they've become masterful, what would you want to ask them or him or her?

You know, it's not for me, I guess, and I'm in that position. It's truthfully, I wouldn't ask them how they became who they are because I think I know how they became who they are because I'm doing it myself. But like, how do they balance everything else out? you know because like when you get so committed to an idea or a sport or a pursuit i feel like everything else starts to fall away and so you need to i like figuring out how to elevate everything around you and like when to turn the switch on how to turn the switch off just i guess how they feel emotionally when they're not doing what they do. Because it's easy. I know what it feels like to, what it should feel like to feel or to be in that moment. I'm my best man.

I feel like I have true grit and I can handle anything if I'm doing in the moment and I'm forced into a situation like taking a giant wave on the head. I feel like I become someone I don't feel like I'm not on land. And it's interesting.

I'd like to know how other athletes feel if how their psyche works what they think if I could be one of the great champions of the world just for a moment to understand what they're feeling and how they approach things because I found that everyone's perspective in life is you know they see things through a different eye but it's more than that it's like how things connect in their brain and their mind and that's what I'd like to know from the best the the legends of the legends the greatest of the greats like what is their thought process because for that for me I might not even I could not even imagine their thought process because I've never I don't know about their thought process? Because for that, for me, I might not even, I could not even imagine their thought process because I've never, I don't know about that thought process. It's like,

I believe some, they say that like when you dream, it's drawn off of experiences, people's faces, things you've witnessed or things, and that's creates your dream. It's never something that you hasn't seen. It's always something that's been captured throughout time. And how do you capture someone else's thought process? Because it's their thought process. It's complicated. It's complicated, but basically I would like to know, understand, or be, understand other great athletes' psyche, basically. Yeah, and that's essentially the purpose of this conversation with you as well, is to try to capture.

And so let me see if I could ask you a couple questions to get closer to it. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most? I mean, one single word? I mean, I'd have to think about it a little bit, but one word that I was told when I was younger by my dad a lot was true grit or grit. Because I remember I did a project with some Navy SEALs in Patagonia where we mountain climbed for two weeks. And we summited multiple mountains that had never been done before.

And we would sleep from 11 to 3, and then we've summited multiple mountains that had never been done before and it was we would sleep from 11 to 3 and then we would be hiking and it was the gnarliest trip of my life and i just remember was this with nashak pete yeah exactly how what a wonderful human being dear friend of mine like what a wonderful oh awesome well i can't wait to tell him i spoke to you then um but i just remember that trip i journal journaled everything. And I've actually, I've purposely, I purposely have journaled everything like my entire year, my New Year's resolution was to journal every single day in detail about my experience so that I could find, hopefully at the end of this year, meet with somebody or just talk to other people about like kind of my ups and downs and the algorithm like if there's an algorithm to my my craziness or whatever you know what i mean and so that came from that trip was um seeking deep down having to seek deep down and becoming more than what i ever thought was possible. And that was thanks to Pete and, you know, and Steve, who was the other gentleman with us.

And yeah, so I mean, simply put, I guess having grit in the most dire situations is grit, meaning also having clarity in that time period. You know what I mean? So when I hear the word grit, I think about Angela Duckworth's definition, which is passion and perseverance for long-term goals. Are we talking about the same thing? Yes. And I think the only other thing too is like being able to hold your cool head

when everyone else is losing their minds, which would be for me falling on a wave and coming up and seeing a seven-story building collapsing on top of me in a barrel and having nowhere to go, nowhere to hide. Nobody could help me. I'm completely alone. That's it. My vest is inflated.

I can't even swim down. I just have to sit there and just look at it square in the head and square in the face and enjoy the view. That's all I can do is just enjoy the view. And when I'm underwater, just let go, relax. When I wipe out on a big wave, which people think, what do you do? Do you keep your arms in? Do you try to swim up? I completely go limp.

I find this space, and I've learned this throughout the years, is like I literally just relax. I let go limp. I find this space and I've learned this throughout the years is like, I literally just relax. I let go completely. It's as if I'm like getting tossed around, but my mind, my face is relaxed. I'm holding my breath. The only thing I really do is tuck my chin just to, just in case I get impacted air won't burst through my mouth. You know, I can lock my, my throat by keeping my chin down and I'll just kind of go through the motions. And in my mind, I will, I can lock my throat by keeping my chin down, and I'll just kind of go through the motions, and in my mind, I will, it'll be like a black space, I won't even be seeing, I'll forget what's around me, I'll be in a different world, and I've had these exercises that I've developed in my head, where I've stacked Legos, different colored Legos, to create a bridge

from one end to the other, and i'll start maybe with the blue one i'll hit a yellow then i'll red and i'll build this bridge not a super detailed bridge but it's more like a bridge out of london or something and i'll create this bridge and i'll go through like these exercises in my head and by building legos i can never i've never been able to finish the entire bridge by the time i come up i come up and and I'm like, oh, I'm done. What happened? I'll just disconnect. Sometimes it's so violent, I'll feel it and I'll get woken up out of that trance

while I'll be scorpion. A lot of times, too, I'll just try to imagine what's going on around me without having to open my eyes because I don't want my eyeballs to get pulled out by the white water. I've never heard anyone describe it like this. Yeah. So psychologically it's called disassociation is that you place your mind

somewhere else and you're purposely doing it. You know, people that can't purposely do it and they're disassociating, they're crazy. Right. But you're purposely disassociating from what's happening in that moment. Because if you've over-focused on what's actually happening, you know, your limbs are getting ready to be ripped off from the violent turbulence. And also, you know, I've had wipeouts where my arm, I can't physically do it. I can't, I'm so tight from paddling my whole life that, and windsurfing when my arms are ahead of me, I can't actually get my arm behind me. And I've literally felt the back of my arm touch my back because I've been so relaxed and loose that my muscles aren't even working and I can just hit and get torn apart and come up completely like not tweaked at all.

It's only when I'm like present in that moment that I'm like come up a little wrenched a little way or you know, actually one of my worst wipeouts is when I had a, I had two really bad wipeouts but one I would like – I had two really bad wipeouts. But one I would like to talk about, which was – it was a good mental exercise, was I dropped into a wave. I taught – like the wave itself looked very intimidating, and I had to overcome that fear of going over, and I committed to myself. The wolf helped me commit myself. I dropped in, and all of a sudden I had nowhere to go. I went on this wave. The only place you could go was in the barrel. And that i had nowhere to go i was i went on this wave the

only place you go is in the barrel and that's what i was looking for was a giant barrel and um i just remember getting to a point where i was too high up on the wave because when you're serving that big wave you have you have so much space to cover that i couldn't straighten out to avoid getting pounded and riding as far in as i could and I couldn't pull in because the lip was kind of crumbling and it was going to just basically turn into this giant fist of power that hit me. And so I had nowhere to go. So I had to consciously slow down and just step off. I just basically was on my board and I had nowhere to go.

I was going to get lipped in the head regardless of any situation I tried I tried to try to pull in or strain out. I was going to get the lips square to the head. And I'm like, where was nowhere to go? There's nothing more I can do. I'm just going to step off. I literally, all I did was just step off and try to penetrate the water, but I was going so fast. I must've been going 45 miles an hour that I just, it felt like jumping onto concrete. And I just bounced onto my butt and I got sucked over and I got so blown up on initial impact. My pull tabs for my inflation suit got pushed into my wetsuit and I just had a wetsuit basically and my leash or my board broke in three places. Um, and I got pushed all the way to the bottom and I remember standing on this, this kind

of concrete slab feel. And it had this little mossy feel to it. And I remember standing there and counting up to six seconds. One 1,000, two 1,000, three 1,000. Where I'm standing there in kind of a squat position. And it felt like I had 10,000 pounds on my shoulders. And I was doing kind of a lift. And I was in between being lowest and highest.

And I was just there. like in between being lowest and highest and I was just there and I had to think I'm like oh this is a very this is mildly inconvenient because I didn't have a leash I could pull up because there was nothing at the end of the leash and so I'm just sitting there on the bottom just going okay and I thought about this one particular guy his name's Aaron Gold you might have heard of him he never pulls his wetsuit. He doesn't believe in it. He has a really strong faith in God so much so that he believes that if it's his time, it's his time and God will bring him up. Like it's just how he approaches it, which is nothing wrong. It's cool. But I just thought about him in that minute. I'm like, well, Aaron Gold wouldn't pull so I can handle it. Let's see what I'm made of. And I literally, in that moment, I'm like, well, Aaron Gold wouldn't pull, so I can handle it. Let's see what I'm made of. And I literally, in that moment, I'm like, what am I made of?

And I ended up getting a two-wave hold down, about a minute underwater, just over a minute, a minute and five seconds. And I had to swim up. And I remember doing 12 big strokes, like one, two, three, that fast, four, 12, 12 strokes like that. And I came up and I wasn't even tired because I had mentally gone past that fearful stage. And my body is so, it's such a, it's a machine, basically. It's a performer. I've worked my whole life to tuning my body to be the best it could be my weakness. I've come to find, and it's what's held me back in a lot of things

is just my mental strength I know I have mental strength in in in really when I get pushed up against the wall it'll come out like the wolf will just come out regardless if I summon it or not giant wave landing on my head being in Patagonia with the gnarliest humans I've ever met doing something that I've never done you know like the I it comes out of me when like as like a survival instinct right but I'm trying to teach myself how to keep a cool head keep really strong but then be able to summon that at will still haven't figured it out but I'm'm only 23, so I have time, I guess, but I want to do it now. Unbelievable.

I think you know more than you're realizing, because what you just described is incredible awareness, and being able to do it in a rugged environment, you've captured it. And it's the thing that most people panic deeply in the experiences that you've just described, or similar to them, whatever that might be, a boardroom, or a pitch, or an interview, or whatever it might be. They get lost in their own thoughts, and they freeze. And so you've figured some stuff out. You call it the wolf, you call it whatever,

but you have great awareness of what's happening. And so i'm not sure where you want to get better and maybe it's in moments where you don't have all of that adrenaline coursing such as you know when you're cleaning the house or you know it doesn't need to be perfect it just can be a conversation and an experience to be with yourself yeah and so i i see the places that I need improvement is just having, I guess being able to, like, I do feel, I hate that feeling of weakness when I'm not at my, like I don't have that adrenaline or I'm not, I'm not, like I don't actually have that purpose.

Like when I have a jaw swell that's where I'm dedicated my energy 100 there's nowhere else in the entire universe I should be than there you know and a lot of times I'm like I should be doing something that's on another level like that's how I just my normal day city like in my house I injured my knee yesterday or my quad getting slammed underwater by my wind surfer. But even being in here, I'm like, I need some purpose or something grand or whatever. And I think it's about being able to not – I don't want to say suppress it, but be able to have the strength and that confidence. You know, you obviously know who Shane Dorian is.

To me, he's the perfect example of – and I don't know how it is really in his head, but to me when he surfs big waves and then when he goes home, he hunts, he hangs out with his kids, kids. And, you know, he just seems like he's the most solid grounded person out of any athlete I've ever met.

Yeah. And for those that don't know who Shane is, he's a legendary surfer, both big wave and competitively. And, um, has, you know, it's, you know, what know who Shane is, he's a legendary surfer, both big wave and competitively. And what you just captured is that he has that just really right balance of being able to be himself in quiet moments and rugged moments and calm moments. It seems like he's always himself. He has a certain level of transparency that you see who he really is, and who he really is is a bad oh dude like he's one of the gnarliest dudes i think i've ever met only because he never pushes it on people he's never like i'm

the best or he's like trying to carry he just has this like aura to him his natural aura which is i'm shane dorian and this is who i am He's like accepted who he is, which is like the most bad-ass thing you can do. I think most people are in denial. I feel like. Okay. So, um, God,

God, like what a really cool way that you've captured the inner experience. And then, you know, when we think about the inner experience, um, can we go through like a checklist of one to 10 and tell me, um, your ability to do the things that I'm going to ask you right so ten is really high like you've

got it and one is like i really i don't even know what you're talking about i struggle so much your ability to switch on um i would say i'm about like my emotional side would say five because i feel like i can hit i can hit a place that is so much higher but at the same time i would say my ability in the moment to be on stage is a 10 your ability to switch off after jaws after mavericks so low like three. I found that to be the case too. Your ability to manage internal distractions. Internal, four. Okay. Your ability to lock in and focus when it's dangerous, ten.

Ten. Yeah. Your ability to lock in and focus when it's boring. To lock in, five five when you feel pressure 10 during i feel like i can handle anything when when someone it's my my word i'm my own worst enemy in that my internal is what is my downfall but any outside influence on me the more pressure i get the better i'll i i become in that okay so your ability to lock in and focus during emotional risk um if it's if it's myself i would say eight if it's if it's regarding somebody else um i would say six five like um i guess just having to deal with another

like another living creature human like i i want to think that i i know what to do and the right thing like if someone's injured i can tend to that but if it involves somebody else somebody else's emotional state actually i would even go lower i would say three like i i i don't feel like yeah that's not my strong suit are you motivated by external rewards one to ten like external being like winning trophies or something or um i think growing up i locked into that entirely so i would like i i've been learning how to overcome that. And I would say, um, locking into that would be, I would say a 10 my entire life for sure. And what about being motivated by internal rewards, the way it feels to be in, in the pit,

to be present, to play in the space between, I would say at this present moment now, I would say eight. Your fear of failure? Fear of failure, ten. And is that failure the consequence of death and injury? No, I've never really been scared of death because I figure it's inevitable. But I've actually,

the only thing that I would hate to go through is something super uncomfortable when dying. Like, it's just getting over that ledge, and it's just like anything. Most people are afraid of drowning, and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's not that for me. No, I don't know. It's like I'm not scared of death. I'm scared more of, I guess, being like in a wheelchair maybe. That would be more scary. If I was ever in a wheelchair, I think I'd rather be dead. Personally, because all my sports require every part of my limbs to be working at a high level or functioning. Not that anybody would wish anything like that for you,

but I think that knowing you, you would figure out a way to adapt. Absolutely. Yeah, I do. I wouldn't succumb to wanting to die. I think that's just my internal emotional side. Because I feel like I have very strong emotions within that maybe I don't share as much you know people don't see it but I feel I feel like that's always been maybe my greatest gift and my greatest downfall as well as my greatest gift is those emotions that help me

elevate my my I guess bring me to the state that I need to be, like, using my emotions to have that extra bit of, like, force in a situation, like, you know, bottom turning. When most people's legs would buckle, I would say I have as much strength as the strongest person on the planet bottom turning with, you know, thousands of pounds of pressure on me because of my emotional, like wouldn't call it anger, but this, like this hunger, you know, that, that hunger. And then on the flip side, I feel like, um, like when I'm more now, because I've spent so many times being so in the moment by myself, like I, if I i'm on if i'm pressured to talk in front of thousands of people about something if it's about something that is truthful to myself or something based on my

experiences of who i am i could talk to i could talk to the president like he was just somebody i met on the street you know like that doesn't affect me but being in a group of people um and having to enter like kind of like interact with a bunch of them like that that like as i'm noticing i've been getting older is getting gnarlier like worse like just being in a group of people not even just interacting individually but like like just being with a bunch of people, I feel the most out of place. I feel like a fish trying to climb a tree, as Albert Einstein quoted. You don't judge a fish by how his ability to climb a tree was the quote, which I feel like when I'm in a crowded room and I'm not actually talking to everybody,

I'm trying to find other people to talk to. I'm kind of on my own, I feel like this space weird I don't know okay so one to ten your fear of success fear of success like 10 being like the most scared yeah I'm really afraid of success no I live on success that's been my I would say one then because my would say one then because my whole life's been based on success. One to ten, music, the importance of music. I mean, unfortunately, I'm lacking in creating music, even though I hear things that I wish I could create, but I just don't have that gift of translation.

I would say music is the second most important thing to listen to. That's one of my greatest senses I've come to know. It's visual, and then second would be my ears. Okay, so that's a 10? 10. Music? I'm sorry, spirituality. 1 to 10. I used to be more, like I would say, because my parents are Catholic, go to church every Sunday. I always felt like I always had this connection with a greater being, I would say, when I was younger. And I would just kind I was younger and I,

and I would just kind of follow those steps. But now my spirituality now is changed a lot. I don't, I don't feel as connected to, let's say the church or a Bible or whatever. I feel, I feel like I have this connection with guardian angels, you know, a greater power,

but not as in a personal standpoint. I just feel like I'm, I guess that's come from surfing big waves because when I'm faced with a giant wave or I'm in a moment, you know, I carry that spirituality because you hope somebody's there to capture you. But I've found that, you know, the only thing that I've ever felt is I've gone away with a really bad wipe out like it could have been a lot worse and maybe they dampened the blow but I've always I I don't ever feel like yeah my spirituality I would say is kind of mid-range now um it's it's kind of lower with what I've done. I just, I don't grasp what, um, everyone like what a lot of people, and I guess now in the

world now is people are preaching a lot about how you should be and how you should act and they never actually follow it. And that's a full deterrent for me. And it's weird because I've grown up, you know, like being at the side of it, like, please God, like save me tomorrow or like um praying to my grandmother or whoever you know just like oh i hope anytime i actually ever prayed when i was younger even now i i don't really do as much anymore was to make sure everybody's safe and healthy and sound wherever they may be okay so say it's gone down a lot and it continually is kind of

okay how do you finish this pressure comes from pressure comes from the inside it's funny because a conversation I just had with somebody he says pressure comes from

the outside so why do you call it inside or why do you say pressure comes from the outside it's like yeah so why do you call it inside or why do you say it comes from the inside because truthfully i feel like my life now um is one that i'm experiencing knowing people and stuff but at the same time i feel like i'm i'm kind of in this game completely alone in a way even though i'm not and so the only pressures that really matter to me like when i lose it's it's really just me being disappointed in myself and angry kind of that i didn't win or i didn't do as good as i thought i could have done um and so that's it's just internal all pressures internal because like

that's like stems from when I was little and I never succumbed to peer pressure to smoke weed, do drugs, drink, I guess be in a clique. It didn't matter to me because that was my natural who I was. It was always internal. If I feel like I need to prove something to other people, it's because I don't feel like I'm good enough yet. Wow. Okay. How about this statement? It all comes down to...

It all comes down to... There's a bunch of words going through my head right now, but I'm trying to pick the right one. It all comes down to yourself, I guess. I mean, it all comes down to yourself. I mean, it's kind of like the last question, I guess, but for me it would be that because it's all my life and everything that I do in my pursuit or whatever purpose I even have is all in my hands.

And I can let it either fall or I can try to elevate it up. It's just all in my own hands. Okay. My vision is? My vision is to be the best, the best in the world. I mean, without, that's my confidence speaking there.

My, my, I would say if I said it in an interview or I said it to somebody, I would say to would be the best to be the best of, to become the best of myself that could ever be. But no, I just want to be the best ever. That's just my internal. I just want to be the best ever. That's just my internal,

I just want to be the, I want to be better than not so much anybody, but I want to, I want to be just the best. I guess it would be better than every single human alive at what I do. Wow. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I appreciate what you're saying. You're saying that I don't want to be like disrespectful to people and you know and it's unbecoming to say i want to be the best because you're supposed to say i want to be my best but the truth is i really want to be you know in rare air where i want to be the number one i want to be basically the only one like that's like my internal wolf speaking internal like just yeah and that's just straight the truth like i yeah i could try to like hide it by saying i want to be

the best i could ever be but no to me that's that that i i hate that feeling when every time i say that to somebody to stay humble and to stay like i don't want to sound cocky ever that always is I always feel this like this anger within myself for weakness like I'm feeling weak you know oh it's not necessary to physically beat somebody it's just to be like all the commercial aircraft fly here and I mean I'm up here in my like fighter jet yeah which would you know the path path to that would be, well, at least it makes sense to me. The path to that is to really refine, um, as many different environments as you can to be your very best. Exactly. And that's my pursuit right now is to

like, I'll get frustrated if I, if I even forget where I place something, not because I, I couldn't find it, but because I let myself slip. Oh my God. Okay. All right. So, um, out of respect for time, how do you define or articulate mastery? Um, how do I, uh, I mean, I guess never, I mean, having the the confidence but then also having the I guess the um what's that proper word for it uh I um having the confidence but also having the um ability to let everything else go because the only way to actually reach that goal for myself

to reach that level is to be able to have no strings attached you know that's I think the level mastery it takes is sacrifice that's it sacrifice and to be the greatest, I think, at anything, to be in a place where nobody else is, is having the ability to not have any baggage with you. You basically, you're hopping on the plane without your toothbrush. You know, it's like just being so, and that I guess that could like, metaphorically speaking, it's like drawing into yourself so much though, to get to where you want. I don't even know if I'm, if it's coming across the way I'm trying to, but that's kind of it, I think, is having no strings attached and being able to, being able to let go. If I could do one, like two words, a phrase, letting go.

That's how you get to mastery, I believe. Letting go. Gosh, Kai, thank you so much for working in this conversation to articulate who you are and like how you work and how you think. And I just am appreciating a lot what you've been able to share with the world. And this conversation's been awesome yeah you know i try to i'm really stoked thank you for your time but also i'm always i i'm i'm one to always be pretty transparent about who i am like i personally feel like i have no skeletons in my closet there's i have nothing to hide and that's been part of letting go and my seeking my uh so

the end result of mastery is is having there's nothing that can hold me down and that's my goal i'm not there yet because i still have some emotions to deal with but um in terms of like skeletons in closet um they're not there too good okay so where can we find more about you and what you're doing point i mean it's pretty easy to follow me on social media since i keep up on all of that um you know instagram facebook basically you just type my name kyle any twitter as well i mean right now i'm working on a lot of film projects you know to try to articulate visually what, um, what I do. Uh, and so, you know, keep an eye out for that, but you know where to find me when, when it's winter time, I'll be out at Jaws here on Maui. So if you ever need to find me somewhere, just book a ticket to

Maui and drive to Jaws and you'll see a guy in a red wetsuit, a red top, black bottom wetsuit with a yellow board. I'll be there. I love it, Kai. Okay, so I want to deeply thank you for the time and the wisdom that you shared. And for listeners, thank you for paying attention to what we're trying to explore here. And if you're new to the podcast, you can go to iTunes and subscribe via Finding Mastery. You can also find us at finding mastery.net and you can hit us up me at least up at social at michael gervais

which is twitter and then on facebook it's finding mastery okay kai appreciate you look forward to more conversations with you and um you know let me know how i can uh support challenge you whatever it might be on your journey appreciate you yeah. Thank you. All right, Kai. All the best. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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