Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - What It Takes to Lead an NFL Franchise | NFL Coach, Dan Quinn

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Dan Quinn, the head coach of the Atlanta Falcons.Dan became the head coach in 2015 and has compiled a 43-37 regular season record.In 2016, he led the Falcons to an NFC title and its second Super Bowl appearance.Entering 2020, Dan ranks second in the organization’s history among coaches with at least four seasons with a winning percentage of .538 and fourth in franchise history with 43 regular-season wins.Dan earned his head coaching opportunity after becoming one of the NFL’s top defensive coordinators with the Seattle Seahawks, overseeing the top defensive unit in the NFL.I had the pleasure of getting to know Dan in Seattle, he’s an amazing human.In this conversation, we touch on how he got into coaching, his approach to overcoming difficult moments, and style of leadership._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And so same thing at practice, somebody's pulling on you or trying to distract you or asking you a question like, how many plays, if there was 30 or 35 plays at practice, could I be fully present, feet on the ground, locked in for those six or seven seconds. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. Tell you what, I love this community. Now, it seems like now more than ever, but I've said that plenty of times. As we continue to grow and as we continue to support and challenge each other, God, I just love what we're doing. So I trade in training. I'm a sport performance psychologist. My name is Michael Gervais. And also I'm the co-founder of compete to create. And this, this community that we have, it's timely because we are connected and we've always been connected digitally.

And so I just, I don't, you know, I'm trying to sort out, is this podcast best served as a bit of entertainment, a relief from the everyday kind of doom and gloom that we find on the news and some of the high stress moments? Or is it meant to be part of the solution? And I'm straddling both. And so this conversation is about the depth and the art of becoming, and we're always reinventing who we are. And so, you know, the next version of ourselves is out there, it's available. And this conversation is definitely about that. But the whole idea behind the podcast is to understand from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery.

And we want to do that by understanding how do they condition and train their mind and how do they organize their inner life? What are they searching for? How did they deal with setbacks and obstacles? And right now, like the whole library, the almost 300 episodes that we've had so far, the library is really about dealing with challenges. And right now we are in it. And so I hope you're doing well.

Like, I mean that from the bottom of my heart. And some of you are thriving in this time. You know, you're an introvert. You love being by yourself. You're doing some of your best work because you're writing and you're committed to whatever it is that you're doing. It doesn't have to be writing. It could be anything. And some of you are struggling. And that is the range of the human experience, suffering to optimization. And for those of you who are suffering, I feel you. I'm with you.

I wish there was something I could do to materially help you through that process. But if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably taking the right steps. And I also want to encourage you to go get with professionals, hire somebody, find somebody, dial somebody up that is trained in the field of psychology. Now is a great time to do that internal work. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms,

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for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Dan Quinn. He's the head coach of the Atlanta Falcons, and this is one of the premier teams in the NFL. Dan became the head coach in 2015, and he's compiled a 43 to 37 win loss record in the regular season. In 2016, he led the Falcons to the NFC title and its second Super Bowl appearance. Awesome. And in 2020, Dan ranks second in the organization's history among coaches with at least four seasons with a winning percentage. And his is 0.538, better than 50% of the games he

plays, he wins. And he's fourth in franchise history with 43 regular season wins. So beyond that stuff, which is good, Dan as a human is remarkable. And this conversation, I hope it reflects his genius in that way. So grounded, so clear, so compassionate for others and fully dedicated to others becoming their very best. So Dan earned his head coaching opportunity after becoming one of the NFL's top defensive coordinators. And he did it at the Seattle Seahawks where I was fortunate enough to work and spend time with him. And he was overseeing at that time, one of the best defenses that the NFL has ever seen. And so he and coach Carroll work closely together to cultivate and create that right environment. And it was, it was incredible. It was an incredible time. So in this conversation, we touch on how he got into coaching, his approach to overcoming difficult, challenging moments, and his style of leading. And so when you're listening, what I hope that you'll do is you'll create an image and an idea of a very warm, strong, powerful, thoughtful, caring, dedicated

human. That's how I understand him. And it's awesome to call him a friend. It's awesome to be able to spend time working with him and to see his trajectory and success taking place thereafter. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dan Quinn. Coach Quinn, how are you? Mike, I'm doing great, man, and very excited to be on with you. I've always enjoyed our engagements and interactions on tons of topics, man. So I couldn't be more pumped to be up with you. You are a legend. And I love this conversation because, one, like there's something special about our history

that I just want to put a note in. And then also like watching you and watching what you're creating down at the Atlanta Falcons is awesome. And so I'm really looking forward to, to kind of peeling back some of the layers of where you came from, the insights that you have and the things that you're wrestling with to try to sort out, you know? So, um, so let's, let's just start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Morristown, New Jersey. It's about 25 miles west of Manhattan. And I was the youngest of six kids, so five boys, one girl.

Awesome, really diverse town to grow up in. So I got involved in sports early on and kind of all the way through high school. I did football, indoor track, outdoor track, but, you know, growing up was hockey and wrestling and, you know, baseball. And so, you know, there was a sport and I was down for it and willing to kind of jump in and try. But by the time I got into high school, probably like into my sophomore years when it kind of settled into, you know, football and track and field. And then I did, you know, both football and track and field in college too. So what was it like being the young scrappy one? You know, like how did, how did that shape you? I have no idea what it's like to be the youngest of four brothers and sister. Very cool. Because you got to do a lot of things and, you know, more experiences because

of them. So I can remember, you know, being really young and being on college campuses or staying over at the dorms or, you know, those things to, you know, going to see my sister in Ohio or my brother in West Virginia or San Diego. And so those things, you know, I thought were cool. And then getting to go to, you know, high school football games and baseball games and, you know, of those things. I thought like a lot of those things shaped, you know, me coming up and, you know, watching them compete and just kind of having a love for it. So it was, it was a lot of fun. And like I said, it was a fun town to grow up in where even like the youth coaches, you know, took such an interest in the kids that it was like, that really shaped for me, you know, kind of coming up and making decisions to go to college. Like I want to teach, I want to coach, you know, like all these people,

you know, I'd say their names and, you know, John Cassese or Roger Davis or Sam Champy, they wouldn't mean names to you. But for me, they were people that like helped me learn how to play football and baseball and, you know, have discipline and like all, you know, really cool things that, that kind of go along with playing youth sports. So, okay. So we're on a thread here about people. Let's open it up to people and events that have been watershed experiences for you that have helped shape you, right? So what have been some of those people and or events that have fundamentally shaped you openness, a curiosity, the vulnerability attached to courage. So somehow you've got this duality that is effortless.

It looks like, it feels like as a friend of yours. So what have been some of those early years? And I'm more interested in the forming of them. Like I used to do this, then this happened, and then I turned into like this way. And I'd love to hear this from you. Okay. Well, I think number one, like I absolutely love being on a team. And through my whole life up to now and to the Falcons for heading into the 2020 season, it's, uh, over 80 teams I've been a part of, you know, from your first team when you're,

you know, six or seven years old and, you know, playing sports and going through high school and college and all the way through. And so those experiences and like being, you know, the youngest of six is, you know, being on a team too, you you know like I was last guy on the bench so like you know like you knew how that goes but it was probably early on like that connection man like I absolutely loved everything about being on a team I think I've taken on you know like an optimist mindset through my mom, who kind of sees things like me, like little probably be more than than half full at most times, I would say, that side of me, you know, the optimist and the other side of like having self awareness. You know, those two things are in constant battle, I knew pretty early on, you know, by the time I was in high school, I was like,

I'm probably not going to play in the NFL, I went to, you know, played in high school, went to a small college, like absolutely had a blast. But like when I was in college, I was clearly thinking like, OK, where am I going to start coaching? It wasn't like, you know, I hope I get invited to the combine. And so like I had so much fun competing and track and football. But I knew early on that like the best things you know for me were about being a part of a team and the things I loved about playing sports weren't necessarily the schematic side but it was just the interpersonal connection with everybody and going so I had a pretty fun experience between football and track and field and the two differences are huge you know like in football you're totally

reliant on everyone you know 1000 being on the same page you could have a good game and the team loses or you could play poorly and the team wins and that can feel a little funny in track and field like you are 1000 in control with the exception of like relays or stuff but as a thrower you're like there wasn't any relays in that. It was like, are you going to get the job done going to compete against wherever? And I can remember maybe early on my sophomore year and we were throwing the javelin and in my area I was performing well.

I remember the coaches, you know, what's great about track Quinn. He said, you know, we can get in the, in the car and drive, you know, just anywhere around. We're going to find some people to compete. And it was like one of those quick moments of like, yeah, you might be good here or around this area. But like, let's go see if you're really ready to challenge yourself. And so the competition of track and field internally and compete against others, like I thought it was it was so much fun. And then every fall I got to experience the other side of it

where like the connection with one another and the team was like that much fun so I had these two contrasting sports that were you know layered in competition but they were totally different one was a team competition and one was really an individual competition and so as unusual it is Mike it was like a good balance for me where I could have these experiences that one I'd create. And then I'd have some experiences that it was only created if we had our chemistry, our camaraderie, our execution down together. So those two things, I thought were like a really cool balance for me. So the way I understand you is that you are primarily internally driven. Like you don't need somebody outside to say, Hey, get up and get going.

No, that's correct. Right. And then that being said is what are you trying to sort out? Like, what are you driven for? Well, I think number one, as a, uh, like as a teacher, I think, number one, as a teacher, I find my most happiness in seeing others perform at their best. Whether you're teaching, you find somebody that's a new concept, I get it. And so part of coaching to me is one of the best things. I can hear a player say, man, I really enjoyed playing for Dan. He was able to make it simple. he was maybe easy to follow. Or those are things that I know if I'm hearing those comments that I'm hitting the mark when a guy is performing well and I've not done so much to get inside your own head to think it were like, I can just go allow myself to make it

simpler where we can really go react. So I would say I'm intrinsically motivated, but I get the most happiness and joy when I really see others. I know how much work and effort that they put into something. And I'm a part of that journey. Like those are the coolest moments for me. So that's why I like the, the really good team wins, um, feel awesome. And the really difficult team losses, um, hurt so significantly because I know how much everybody puts into them. And the really difficult team losses hurt so significantly because I know how much everybody puts into them. And so I wear those and feel those and, you know, kind of it's the life of a competitor. And it's awesome. But, you know, I do walk the journey with them, so to speak. And so when it happens good, I want to celebrate in it and enjoy it. And when it goes the other way, yeah, it stings. And I want to help, you know, find ways to say, all right, what are we going to learn from this and apply it forward?

Because that to me is the fun part of coaching. Because you had one of those pretty publicly, you know, on your Super Bowl run. And, you know, what was that like? I know what it's like to be in a locker room after a win and after a loss. And I'm not so interested in the locker room, but how did you make sense of that? And for folks that don't know what you and I are talking about right now, maybe you can just put some context to it. Yeah, I would say you don't really have a place to put a loss because um

what i felt um the most disappointment was was you know how many people i felt like i personally had let down did not think ahead to do one or two things that would help you know change the course of a game um so i think the first part of it like you know you're dealing with the emotion of it and so like how do you separate that you know to say all right man this is what happened uh no turn back you have to own it and then you want to kind of like embrace it and say all right like i know this is what happened and like it is the life of a competitor and so um yeah i wish it went the other way and then from the last piece of it then i went right back into it to say all right what am i going to evaluate from it and find ways to grow so as painful as it was i went right back into it to say what am I going to evaluate from it and find ways

to grow so as painful as it was I went back you know through the game from a couple of different angles I felt like I needed to do that for my own self I watched it from our point of view I watched it from the New England point of view you know what did they see and so going through those processes helped me have a a way to you, I separated from the emotion of the game, as painful as it was. And then I was able to embrace it and say, all right, this is what happened. And then I tried to evaluate it and say to go. But at the end of it, you do have to be able to apply the lessons you learned. And I would say the hard part about the Super Bowl, what Mike

is to say you don't really really get to show you've learned that lesson until you're in that environment in that arena again and so I can't wait till that day happens to where we do get to do that but until then it's not you know okay well you need to show you learned in another game well not exactly so you want to make sure when those moments come again, you're ready to nail it. You know, think of like the Olympian who, you know, misses out on meddling. And then you say like, I'm building it back up. And when I get my chance again, I'm going to get gold on that space. And so it's more into that line of thinking that I go, cause it's hard.

It stings. And I recognize for everybody, the moments don't come, you know, around every year. So when you do the opportunity to nail them, it's so significant. So, um, I'm definitely driven to get back to that space, uh, to show what I've learned and, you know, really, you know, kind of flip that to say, uh, I'm going to go knock on that, on that door again. So you own it, then you feel it. Yep.

Then, you know, and I want to come back to the feeling part. Then you make sense of it, right? That's the analysis part. Then you work on, from that analysis and the emotions, then you figure out how to apply it. And then that application, this is, this is the nasty part that I'm hearing. Like, man, you don't get to know until you get another chance. And that's, that sounds, that sounds haunting. It is because, uh, there's certainly like lessons from there. I'm a better coach in a lot of ways on, you know, different topics that have come up, you know, since, uh, that game. So all those experiences that lead you up

to that lead in to say, all right, how do we, you know, do things differently at this, you know, specific scenario comes up again. And so they've come up in other games, but just not in a Super Bowl game. And so that's really, you know, where you want to get to would be like, you know, like I was using the Olympics as the example. Well, there's other world championship games and they've shown they're ready to go, but you don't really get to prove it all the way again until you're in that environment. So, yeah. Oh yeah, totally. I mean, I understand it. And I think if we go upstream for just a minute to put some deeper context is, and this is a big question, you might say, I'm still trying to figure it out. But like, what is, what do you, what is your purpose in life? What is it that you're working out?

I don't know if it's working out. But I think, like the thing that, you know, drives and gives me the most happiness is, you know, having the ability to serve others to see them reach what their potential is to see them what they are capable of and I think that's what's so much fun about you know you know professional sports is to see the rookie come in at one space and then all the work and all the energy and the technique to go into it to help them develop and so that to me is like where I you know I, you know, usually generate, you know, the most pride from and having those relationships with the players and see

them come from one space and then go into another space where their games improve, they're rewarded with contracts. They're like having, you know, the ability to be a part in that. Like, that's so cool, man. You can think about like some of the contracts that happen in professional sports are life changing. And so to be a part of that to help somebody work their ass off to create a moment for them and for their families like that's the best and then when you can do it on a whole team level where you know the playoffs in the NFL and you know playing for a championship like those are the things as a player that you really often are defined as,

well, how many good teams were you a part of the quote, Bill Russell. That's something that is like those two things together when you're developing players and they're playing well, and you're able to, you know, hopefully as a team get into really fun and good environments. Like that's where I'm at my best self, you know, like really grounded where I'm at and enjoying the moment with the players and the coaches, because we work our asses off. So you want to make sure you're like, you're having fun and going through the process with them as well. What is it like when you're at your best?

I think, um, there's a good element good element of, you know, like confidence that goes with it, you know, like you've put the work in and like, you know, those nights before the game, you're like, man, I still can't wait for this game. Like, you know, you've put the work in the preparation. And then the other part of it is like in the game, I guess when it's on the line the most, that's when I feel most alive. There's been many times after a game where my wife Stacy would be like, are you trying to kill me? Down to the end, field goal.

In those moments, like a two-minute at the end of the game, I am at my best then because I literally feel the most alive in that moment you don't know what the next play is going to be you don't know but you're ready for it because you practiced it all right in other words there's 30 seconds left you have two timeouts all right if it's inbounds you're going to do timeout if it's not you're back on the ball like those moments of preparation like you're clear you're ready to go attack it and so then when you nail those ones like it is awesome so i would say me at my best um is probably a good combination of knowing that you've put the work in as a team and then the second piece is when those moments come

like totally leaning into them and saying like this is it this is the time we're going to go win this game and i would say recognizing when those moments are, because they're not all, and you know this, Mike, they're not all in the last 30 seconds of the game. There's sometimes, you know, a close game, you feel like, all right, there's four minutes left in the fourth quarter. Like this stop has to go down. This first down has to work, you know, whatever it might be,

because although it might not be the last play of the game, this is probably the deciding play or, you know, it might be because although it might not be the last play of the game this is probably the deciding play or you know certainly could be so being in those moments leaning into them recognizing them being clear-headed on those ones as a play caller you want to have your best stuff for those moments and it was certainly something that I you know learned from coach Carroll like you know crowd ripping juiced up to go. What's the best call on that one? Your blitz package effective or not on this space. You know, it's about this player. And so being really clearly, you know, clear eyed, clear vision for what you want to do in those moments.

Those are the things that keep you up at night in a good way. Like, all right, if this comes up, this is what we're going to do. And oftentimes I felt my best when I told the team that, Hey, this is going to be a really close game. It's going to come down to the end and here's what's going to happen. So to me, that's what being at my best felt like. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat

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Like if you can think of one, you know, and again, I love the clarity that it's not the dramatic last shot of the game in basketball, but it's oftentimes like four minutes to go and there's only a couple of drives left and, you know, something's got to break or you've got to really execute well, you know, that that's the truth of it. And so can you kind of conjure up one of those and walk me through how you speak to yourself? Because we, there's these micro decisions and the micro decisions, when our heart rate comes up a bit, some people, they struck, they really struggle with it and they get tense and tight and frustrated and angry and maybe anxious or scared or, you know, like there's lots of responses. Yeah. How do you, how do you manage the, if you're most alive in those moments, which I will attest to, I've seen it in you and you're having having a blast you know yeah so like how do you do way like i think when i first became a nfl head coach i i never called a time out you know

went down the referee time out and you know all right that felt good yeah things that you kind of go through for the experiences but um i think in those moments we talk about what we want to be and so as the leader of it in that space you better make sure that like if you say these moments are really important and owning them are and they're going to really matter then in that space like like you better be fully turned up. And that to me is those times. And so I would say, all right, like we can use last year, you know, for instance, our last game, we were playing Tampa Bay and we had to, you know, it went into overtime at the end of the game.

And we had talked about, you know, creating a turnover, you know, in this series, this is going to change the game. And it just so happened on the first play of overtime, our linebacker, Deion Jones, picked the ball off, runs in, walk off, you know, win. But like helping the guys create the mindset of what was about to happen helped for that moment and so in the locker room it's just like we said it's just like you know so like living in those moments where you had to create something to make a play those are the coolest ones i can you know be on the sideline maybe it was two years ago and uh julio jones who's our you know fantastic wide receiver who is never the person hey give me the ball or any of that kind of stuff and uh it had been a really long third down play and all of a sudden he just said give me a shot at it it was like third

and 15 and i just leaned in him i was like we knew what play you know that we would try you know we tried it some in practice and it ended up being like a 75 yard touchdown pass but it was like one of those moments where a player leaned in and said, you know, I know I can get on the top of this guy. I know what coverage is going to be there. So it was like, man, let's go for it and let it rip. So more often than not, it comes, you know, from me, you know, through to the guys, you know, on this moment, this play, this scenario, but often, you know, other times it comes from the player.

Like they're feeling it too, just like a coach does. I think it's important for us as coaches to lean back into. And if a player is feeling it and they have that much confidence in something, if we really, you know, are promoting the trust and the caring about one another, like we think, then you better give them that opportunity. And so more often than not, they make it work. Where do you get in your way when those moments come up and you've got you know those micro choices and obviously we want those micro choices to be automatic and we're like yeah here it is because we've done the work physically and mentally to prepare on how we

want to be and i i do want to come back to the emotion thing earlier yep and but i also want to talk about like how do you get in your way yeah well you're probably like the two terms we use are like what are your superpowers and what are your kryptonites you know and so for me my kryptonites is um often i'm too much where it could have been well i can add and i can help with that. And yeah, I can, you know, do some of that. And pretty soon, you know, I'll spread myself too thin and not keep the main thing. And so how do I, you know, not allow myself to go down that road to do that? That's a really important thing, because my general tendency is to want to help it's not a function of micromanagement I don't think of it in that way but I do think of it a way as I've got to make

sure like that I don't spread myself too thin so in those moments I'm not trying to call the defensive call and talking to the offensive coordinator and trying to talk to a you know player on the sideline like staying right where your feet are in that moment is important because my general tendency is to lean in. And if you have a problem, I want to help you. And if the next person does, I want to help them. And I think I can help with this. And so it comes from a good place in my heart,

but I do know that it can get me into trouble too where I spread myself too thin. And what are your core values? What are the stuff that is deep in there that you're saying, mom and dad would love if I said this out loud, and that's how I'm trying to live my life? What are those big principles? I would say the two things that, you know, stand out to me a lot are one, you know, I do live, you know, from an optimistic point of view, where I generally see the good in things.

And at times that can, that's what's still saying, like a blessing and a curse where I think I may stay on something too long. I think we can still stay with this. He can get there, we can go. So that to me, I like living that way. But I think at times,

I usually see the good in what can happen. And at times, all right, but is that really the best? I think that kind of goes along with self-awareness. You know, like there's definitely times where those two things can be in conflict because my self-awareness, you know, would say, hey, maybe this isn't the best decision or this isn't the best time. But my optimism would say, well, yeah, I can take on that and still do a good job in this. So those two things are there. And I think the thing that I, you know, find a lot of happiness is, is connecting people. And so that's why I do enjoy being a part of a team. I'm not, you know, uncomfortable having uncomfortable conversations, you know, with others. I don't think you have to be a jerk to, you know, confront somebody on when things aren't right, but you do have to have them. And then I do enjoy, you know,

connecting teammates on, you know, different topics and finding ways that we're all an extension and a connection to one another. If Matt Ryan throws a, you know, deep pass to Julio Jones, it was Jake Matthews, it was Alex Mack, it was so many other people that were involved in the play. And so I like to recognize others that are part of the journey. And I think, you know, back to your first question of values, I would say, gratitude, you know, you know, have an appreciation for, for others, you know, certainly something that's big on my list. I love connecting with people. And then I think I generally have a pretty optimistic nature that for the most part serves me well, Mike.

But there's definitely times when I hang in too long thinking that this is just about to turn. You know, like it's about to change. And so sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. So, OK, gratitude, other people like celebrating other people optimism and you didn't say this but hard work is embedded in there um there's something about honesty and authenticity that you didn't hit but i just know those uh from you and all of those i see you practice them i've seen you practice them and i don't know if it's like, it takes work for you because you do them so easily now, or there's kind of easy for you. And it was just part of the, the water that you swam in when you were younger. No, I think it definitely, um,

takes work, but I think like most things, when you practice at it and you have, you know, better awareness for things, then it doesn't really become the work anymore. You know, like, you know, mindfulness for, you know, for other people and being a better listener, you know, as a leader to hear, you know, what, you know, some of the thoughts are from other people like that definitely took work. There were some times probably early on in my career I wanted to give the other answer to prove to prove I could you know I know what I'm doing here and I could do that I probably spent maybe 10 years of my career like always wanting for the next and I really I think missed on some significant moments because I was wanting to do the next thing as opposed to like being right where my feet were and so I'd been a defensive line coach in the NFL for about 10 years and I really wanted a bigger leadership

opportunity as a defensive coordinator and with one team in a d-line role and to another to another and so I just felt like man it's you know it must be somebody else's fault they don't want to promote me and so when um i did end up you know becoming a defensive coordinator i had realized like i like this is still coaching it's still the same stuff and there wasn't like this you know at the end of the rainbow oh now things are so much different like i had real happiness you know in what i was doing and where i was i happened to be with coach Carroll at the Seahawks at the time I left the Seahawks I'd been a defensive line coach I went to University of Florida for two years as the defensive coordinator there and I came back to Seattle and I had so much happiness that there was like a head coaching opportunity that come and it passed and I came back for the next year and I had like no remorse, no, oh, I wish I had taken that.

Like some of the feelings and emotions that I had maybe the previous 10 years because I finally got to a space where like I was so happy right where my feet were. And it happened to be if that was what I was going to be doing for the next few years, you know, I was going to be totally good with that. And you'd be surprised when you're just where your feet are, like all these other cool opportunities came about for me. And so I wasn't chasing the next thing, but trying to just kick ass and like enjoy living of what I was doing. And so since that space, um, that was probably in like 2010. So maybe over the last 10 years, I probably lived my best life of being right where I'm at and enjoying it and trying to like make those moments really pure and helpful as opposed to maybe the previous 10 of some might have thought it was ambition. But really, it was what's next, what's next and what's in it for me. And so I definitely had to work at it.

There you go. Okay. And then so what do you have a mindfulness practice or are you using the word like I just really work on being aware throughout the day? No, I do. And so in 2013, I got involved with a company called Vision Pursue. you know, with everything from, you know, meditation to, you know, learning how to separate some emotions. So you can be, you know, fully present and understanding that, yeah, like we're all going through a lot of this stuff, you know, and the things that jam coaches up and players up, like it happens to all of us. So having a way to talk about it and discuss it and go through exercises helped me. So when I, you do have a tough loss, tough loss and you have to be ready to deliver for the very next day

how do you separate from the loss how do you you know move past the thought and then get right back into all right what do I evaluate from it and what do I do next even when everything around you from a media side is asking some questions that you'd want to look at the person and like say like are you really asking me this right now you know like i would like to meet you in the parking lot in 10 minutes you know but you better make sure that like nope yep yeah i understand the question like where it might be completely off base but like hey dude you're not gonna get me and recognizing those traps and like what's most important like the team doesn't need any distraction for me.

They need me to be rock solid and steady and consistent. And so if I'm going to preach those things, why damn sure better live it. And then is that, that's your same methodology. It sounds like for dealing with hard emotions or big emotions, right. Which is,

you know, yeah. And so it helps at home. It helps at work to see when those disappointments happen to, you know, have a process to help you navigate what that looks like. And like I said, more often than not, my glasses have full. But we all have those spaces that it's more challenging and, you know, takes more focus to, you know, stay on track and not let the negative thoughts, because I think it's easiest. Well, I just stay positive. Like, yeah, that's not as easy as it sounds. So it's more like having a process to help you get there.

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Like the Legion of Boom was right in your strike zone there. So what was that like for you? And for folks that don't know Legion of Boom, it was a collective group of defensive players that were unbelievably talented and dominant in the field, in the know in football so what was that like for you it was uh so engaging because uh the players on that team were so uh willing to communicate to give feedback um to offer support to one another and i think what helped that is you know everyone's ability to lean in on one another and hardest things for all of us at times is to, I'd say, not call one another out, Mike, but to say, give honest feedback to one another. I can remember in a coaching meeting, not in Seattle, but here,

I wish so-and-so would talk to this person. I wish so-and-so would talk to this person. I say, fellas, we don't even do that enough as coaches. And so how do you think they're going to respond? You know, like more often than not peer to peer calling out can be really challenging. And so what was so much fun and you saw like how much love they had for one another, they could be really honest with each other because they knew it was coming from a good place. How did you do that? Because those are like five, six, seven alpha males that were smart, opinionated, almost a refusal to accept that a loss could take place.

How did you make that happen? And I know it was a collective. Coach Carroll had a lot to do with it, and so did a was a collective totally was you know i mean coach carol had a lot to do with it and so did a lot of other coaches like i know that but like what how did you help nudge that along number one as you know when you're a leader you want to help encourage um you know the mission you want to help encourage what the message you know that was through coach carol and then you also wanted to encourage the dialogue so you know maybe on another team or you might see if you know you heard one player say to another player give them a correction and let's say you and i were doing it and i said hey mike

you need to pick it up and you said hey hey worry about yourself bq you might we ain't we're not that close then if i was going to say that to you um then you knew I knew you pretty well and I knew you had better. And so like having the vulnerability to step out there and give feedback to one another, it was awesome. And it was also one that came when it was done really well too. So when things happened, you know, good performances, you know, the gratitude and the appreciation for that, that was also communicated. So it wasn't just like when a bad play happened that, you know, somebody said something. So, um, the tempers flare at times, of course they did. Um, but more often than not, it came, you know, from a place where like, I really care about this other person. I know him really well, and I'm going to tell him, good and bad.

And that's not so easy to do. But I think the more you do it, the more practice you have doing it, then it became easier. And so all of our roles, more often than not, honestly, the NFL players, they want the truth. And so not dancing around it, like, hey, give me your feedback. What do you think you know your honest assessment was on this game and so I tried to give them real feedback into that space of the things that they were doing really well and then I thought to win this game these are the things that we're going to do that we're going to need to do and I thought that's

where you'd see the player leadership take over to say this is what you know pete or dan or any of the coaches might have said this has to go down like how are we going to find a way to do that and i thought they gave great examples to one other how to lean in on each other when it got hard how to lean in on one another when it got really good and some of the best leaders were on the team like cam chancellor people on the outside may not know like how powerful a presence he had um people may not know like the competitive drive of earl thomas they might know the playmaker but like his work ethic that went into becoming a great player was good i can remember um before um we played denver in a super bowl we were in the training room and

he came up to me and just stared right at me. He said, whatever you call today, it works. And it was like, here's a player wanting me to know that he's down for whatever. And so that's the type of optimism he had. That's the type of confidence that players and coaches shared with one another. And so it's hard to create that, as you know that players and coaches shared and with one another and so it's hard to create that as you know because you have to have some confidence you know to talk like that but you can imagine like the reassurance it made me feel to say like you think they're ready to go

and so yeah what a cool moment it was awesome and I uh he had a real strong ability to stay focused for a long period of time. And I think I had that too. You know, I think most coaches do because there's a level of preparation that you have to go into. So I can work on a project for a long time and not lose focus of that. If it's tape or game planning to get ready, like those things, I had the ability to stay at it.

I think he has that same ability to stay really locked in over a long period of time. And not everybody has that. It's really hard to stay on point. He can do it better than most. Most people have to practice it. And it's really hard. That duration of focus is really difficult. And it is one of the pathways into flow state and to, you know, deep insight. And so it is special. And yeah, I asked you right now, hey, for the next 15 seconds, don't think about anything. I mean, you know, it's ridiculous how hard that is. You've got to put all of you know what, 15 seconds is one full breath. And you and I both know how hard it is to snap into one complete, absorbed, focused breath. Like your mind's going to snap out like quickly, like, is this it? Am I doing it? Like, oh man, I'm on second three, you know, like, but that's the practice of coming back, like without judgment, without critique, just go, oh, okay. Come back to it, come back to it. And eventually you get there. I would oftentimes practice in a practice or even in a game to say like, how many plays if there was

like, you know, on a defensive side, you know, 60 or 65, how many of those plays could I be fully locked in, not thinking about the next play, the next thing, and really on that moment to see what, you know, is best to shift into into and so same thing at practice somebody's pulling on you're trying to distract you're asking you a question like how many plays if there was 30 or 35 plays at practice could I be fully present feet on the ground locked in for those six or seven seconds again and again and again not looking down at the script or missing a moment to find just the right coaching cue for somebody and so those were days like mentally you'd be tired because you wanted to have all your focus for like 30 or 40 instances as hard as you could to find the special connection that would help that player unlock his whatever.

Or maybe that was the one thing you had been working on. So you really wanted to make sure if it happened, you didn't miss it. So you didn't have to get, well, we'll look at the tape and see what it says. Like really the best coaches are the ones that don't need to wait till the tape. Like the best coaches to me are the ones that do it out at practice and out on the grass. I know exactly what happened and you can give them feedback within seconds and not having to rely on tape to do that. Yeah, that's considered gold standard feedback loops, right? When it's as close to real time as you can.

And in the NFL, it happens like hours later oftentimes because it's such a management job, you know, of like getting people through the plays. And so, yeah. Vision to see where it's going to be to look at it and so like that all ties into it as a coach you know like somebody moving in front of you like make sure you're in the right position to see what could happen to the person that you're you know looking out for on that play and so finding those moments and like being really locked in when they do happen uh so you can give feedback like that helps because like I said earlier what do the players want like they want to know the feedback and the truth and

so I've always thought the best coaches I've been around have been the best on the grass first then in the meeting room you know like the best teachers were the physical teachers because like they're playing a physical game. So like they learn physically. They, you know, like that to me is where I've been football anyway. And then track and field too, where the best coaches I've been around were the best, you know, on the field. You know, let's, let's slight pivot here because we're talking about coaching and feedback and there's an art and a science to it.

And you have a deep appreciation for the psychology of the game, for the mental skills as well. And if I just go upstream for just a moment, there's two basic frames, right? Self-discovery and mental skills. Self-discovery is the process of learning. Like, who am I and how does this thing work? work. And then the skills are like the block and tackling, which is like sets and reps of building confidence, of knowing how to be calm, of mental imagery, fill in the blanks. And I used to ask the question, like, what's the most important mental skill? And I don't see it that way anymore. I see it more of a tapestry. And some pieces of the tapestry take up a lot of space and some are a little bit smaller.

But if you were to weave your tapestry of principles and skills that matter most from a psychological perspective, what does that look like? What's that constellation look like? What are the big pieces? What are some of the smaller pieces? And if, if, if I could help you a little bit, we've already talked about optimism, confidence, deep focus. Um, we've talked about those three at a pretty high clip and then emotional intelligence. So if you were to talk about, just do the skills right now, imagery, calm, confidence, focus, uh, clarity of goals. Um, you know, that just those kind of concrete ones, where do

you go? I'm going to step one part back, and then I think I can help answer it best. Because my learning and how a specific player learns may be different. And so if it's a technique, why is this one important for some players to know? This is going to fit into the overall picture of X, Y, or Z. If it was an individual technique, you're going to use this specific technique when we run this route. And then other players, you just want to get into the very specifics of, you know, don't worry about where this is going to apply. I really want you to think about how your body is going to move and adjust you know when it gets called upon so i think what we're first called to do as coaches is to say do we

understand the players and how they learn best to know right if um mike gervais needs the big picture of why that we're going to do what we're going to do then make sure hey mike we're going to use this you know the play we just put inside this is now the skill for that where you can attach it to something where you might say to dan quinn who plays a different position hey man this is one thing i really want you to get good at today and here's how we're going to do it and didn't apply you know why you needed it that's okay as long as you and i were different i think where it gets tricky is if you just throw something out there and not have a real understanding of why it's important. That to me is the most tricky, but I think more often than not, our players are visual and physical learners. And so I've had more success. Hey, let's just step outside for a minute and go through

this. Let's get outside the meeting room. Let's stand up, turn the lights on, move the chairs out. And so more often than not, they've responded to that type of learning best because what's made them the one percenters, the thing is not their classroom intellect. It's been like what's behind their rib cage, like their heart, their toughness, their competitiveness. They're willing to do almost whatever it takes to figure it out. And more often than not, it's a physical way. So I would say a little bit less imagery and more of the physical learning with real live movement that goes along with it. Long answer. Sorry. No, I like where you're taking this because the the question up from

what i was asking is about learning and how do you learn your learner and i know that that's a phrase did you learn that from the seahawks or um i'm sure well it doesn't much matter because learning the learner is a really important um process and you're really good at it. So like, how do you do that? Well, like one of your and Pete's gifts is like attaching a phrase to something that maybe we've done before. So like learning the learner is an easy way to remember like that everybody has their own unique skillset and you could go on to a long paragraph about it. But if you're teaching, you know, four or five different players at the same time that's when it gets the most challenging so in the classroom setting if that's not a person's strength you may not lean in on him

as much as one who is totally reliant upon that and then there you go now when we get on the field the person who's that way all right hey joe, you're now going to lead the way on this. And so having, you for an example there's um you know coaches that are like schematically so strong they just can see the x and o's the matchups of what they want to go or you know designing a specific play and then there's other ones that have you know such a connection with the players to get the very best out of them. And so very rarely do you find, you know, like somebody like Coach Carroll, who has, you know, strengths in both worlds. There's oftentimes guys like me, who probably lean more towards the connecting with the players and finding, you know, the, the right buttons to push, you know, you've heard that term. And then there's other guys that have

such a strong offensive presence or defensive presence from the X and O and the playbook side of it, but they don't cross into the, you know, player side of it, like how to get this player really mentally ready and say the difficult things that you need to say to a player sometimes or to another coach at times and say, give them the honest truth or the feedback or what you need when you have people that can bridge both of those worlds that's important so it's not just learning the learner of the players I think as the leaders and as the head coaches you also have to learn how the coaches learn best because your brain width is longer and stronger than mine but my ability to put it into a good spot and how I now

can think of a story how we're going to use it with the player and how we're going to make the call come to life and so I think you better have a balance of those people like I don't want a whole staff of guys who think just like I do there better be a good mix of people but having to learn the coaches is is my opinion opinion, just as important, um, as learning the players because not all coaches learn in the same space either. I love how you think, Dan. I mean, I've really appreciated how clear you are and how authentic you are and how much you care. And it's obvious that you've been on the, you know, what I would call the path of mastery, like, you know, like for your whole life probably.

And so, you know, I just want to say I want to honor your time and I want to also honor all the things that we didn't get to say in this conversation because there's so much more inside you. And, you know, there's a few things I'd like to make sure that we try to get our arms around, though. It's like, how do you think about mastery? And then what do you imagine the future of sport looking like in 10 years? You know, I'd like, because I know you think about the next generations. So maybe go that second one first. Like, how do you think about the future of sport in the next 10 years? Well, I'm hopeful that the one concern I have is that we're still maybe sometimes a little too specialized. I had such a unique background of playing all

different sports. And so my appreciation for team, my appreciation for other people grew stronger in those moments. So I would just encourage, you know, the next generation of kids that are coming up, man, like, don't be afraid to compete at a bunch of things, because it's going to totally pay off into the sport that you find your space. If I, you know, when I was eight years old and say, well, he's going to be a wrestler. And then, you know, like six years later, like, man, I really love football. Like, let's not put that pressure on somebody at that age to be like you are now this. So I'd say, like, let's let them hang in there for a while and dig into other things, because the fun part of that sport when it's the one that we choose, not our parents or, you know, an aunt or an uncle or a grandma. Like, let it happen, man. Keep digging. And if they're not digging baseball and you are like, they're going to find it.

But keep pushing, you know, the encouragement for others. So I'm hopeful what we see in sport is just the same level of competition, the same fan engagement, because it is fun to be part of like, you know, big time college sports or pro sports because you have an instant connection, you know, with that city and that team. And it's fun as hell, Mike, having a connection between a city and a team and feeling their energy for it. And so I hope that grows even stronger as far as mastery goes and finding mastery I would say if I had to change the name of your podcast mine would be like mastering ing because anywhere near gotten to where I feel like I could be the you know the authority on it and it's part of the fun of you know being in sport is like our NFL game when I came in 20 years ago is way different today than it was 20 years ago and so like going through those 20 minutes man like those 20 years like that's been cool as hell so like I've learned I've grown

the game's not the same and so like in the next 20 years, we're going to look back and be like, remember in 2020 how we did that? It was like, it'll be so different. So I do love that the challenges, the learning, it never stops I would say for me, it'd be the, you know, how do I keep finding the little edges to change and make adaptations in the game plan, in the fight plan to make sure like we're going to get the best version of me moving forward. So mastering would be better suited for me. I love watching you create and I love what you're doing. I love the man that you are and what you stand for. And I love being you create and I love what you're doing I love the man that you are and what you stand for and I love being your friend so yeah I appreciate your friendship and your support man it uh just seeing you sometimes I may interact with you for only uh two or three minutes or five minutes or ten minutes you'd walk a lap with me at a game and I feel like yeah that last jog

we had was a good one now wasn't it yeah like i get better you saw me at my worst um i think after your the game against seattle we were one and seven so we finished six and two but um being one and seven it's a lonely face it's a lonely spot you know and so uh having some good interactions with people that uh have really strong mindsets sometimes it's just what you need so i definitely appreciate your friendship and your support and that have really strong mindsets. Sometimes it's just what you need. So I definitely appreciate your friendship and your support and look forward to competing against you for next year. Yeah, come on.

All right, good. You're a legend. Okay, bud, I'll talk to you soon. All right, see you, bud. Okay, see you, bud. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode

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