Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - When to Lean In and Let Go - The Art of Leadership, Teaching, and Raising Resilient Kids | National Teacher of the Year, Missy Testerman

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

What does it take to foster confidence, independence, and resilience in the next generation? Missy Testerman is 2024’s National Teacher of the Year. Her insights, honed over three decades of teaching elementary schoolers in rural Tennessee, have impacted not just classrooms but the entire educational landscape.Missy has a unique gift for transforming challenges into opportunities—both for her students and herself. In this conversation, we explore her journey as a first-generation college graduate, her path to becoming a nationally recognized educator, and the lessons she’s learned about leadership, resilience, and the art of teaching.Missy’s insights go far beyond the classroom – we discuss the importance of building authentic relationships, the role of “productive struggle” in learning, and why love alone isn’t enough to help someone reach their potential.As you’re listening, you will quickly discover what a Teacher of the Year can teach us about raising our children, influencing & understanding others, and creating an ideal environment for learning._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And today, I am thrilled to, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And today, I am thrilled to welcome an extraordinary guest. Missy Testerman, the 2024 National Teacher of the Year, was dedicated over 30 years to

transforming the lives of elementary school students in rural Tennessee. Missy has a unique gift for transforming challenges into opportunities, both for her students and herself. This conversation is packed with insights that go far beyond the classroom. We delve into leadership and ethics and gratitude and so much more. Missy embodies what it means to lead with purpose, passion, and precision. So as you're listening, you'll quickly discover what a teacher of the year can teach us about raising our children, influencing and understanding others, and creating an ideal environment for learning. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the inspiring Missy Testerman. Missy, this is what a treat to

be able to sit with the teacher of the year for the United States of America. Like what an honor and what a treat to be able to have this conversation with you. Well, thank you, Michael. I'm thrilled to be here, to be here in your beautiful studio, be taking part of this conversation with you. Did you ever think as a kid that you would be honored in this way? I didn't even think it as an adult. I can honestly say that being the National Teacher of the Year was never on my radar at any time. My school did not even participate in the Tennessee Teacher of the Year program, so there was really no pathway for it. Honestly, I wasn't even aware there was a National Teacher of the Year program until I became the Tennessee Teacher of the Year.

Oh, well, actually, that's interesting, because that's actually very similar to me, is that my family didn't come, I don't come from an academic family. They didn't go to college. And so I was making it up as I went and, um, and you know, they're helping me in their best ways. And so I got done with my master's degree program and the Dean of the school said, um, Mike, everyone is submitted their letters of recommendation to me for the PhD programs like did something happen that you didn't give me you know like did something happen here because we were really close and I said what do you mean PhD was I supposed to she's like oh my god are you kidding me like yeah and she says get your applications so she was right Like she thought that I was on it. And so the idea, I bring that up because I didn't know either.

I was like one, just like the one step in front of me taking that one and the next step taking that one. And is that how you've done your career? It is. It's actually how I did my college career. I was also first generation, first one in my family to go to college, to complete college. And so a lot of times when you're that first person, it's like walking through the woods the first time and you're having to push, bramble out of the way and step over barriers to make it. And at times you think

it's just going to be easier if I just go back. But what you don't understand at the time is that you walking down that path is going to clear it a little bit for the person behind you. And then the person behind them has a little bit easier time. And we still have students facing those things that we're talking about. You didn't know you were supposed to apply to a program. I didn't know, you know, I didn't even know how to apply to college until a high school guidance counselor helped me. Yeah, same. Yeah. And you didn't know how to apply to become the national teacher of the year. No, we didn't even know it was a thing. There was a whole world out here that I was totally new on.

So I think people might be interested in, first and foremost, why I have this conversation with you. Our community are decision makers in fast moving, large organizations. They are heads of fill in the blank, heads of whatever that they're doing, family, business, philanthropy. And so why have a conversation with a teacher? And it's really simple to me, is that I see the best coaches in the world as being great teachers. And this was an idea from John Wood, UCLA, one of the greatest basketball coaches in college history. And he saw himself as, people call him coach, but he thought he was a teacher, thought of himself that way. And so whatever it is that you're leading, there's teaching involved.

Absolutely. And I want to center on that skill that you have. To be recognized as the National Teacher of the Year, you've got to know how to teach. So I just want to open up. And there's three things that sing above the rest for me, is teaching skills, the relationship when teaching skills, and you've got a strong point of view there. And the third is when you bump up against tension or friction, or there's some sort of difficult part of the relationship where there's a challenge in what's taking place. So the relationship in and of itself, the challenges that come with that, and then the actual proficiency of teaching skills. So out of those three, where would you like to start?

Let's start with relationships, because relationships are incredibly important in every situation, whether you're in the business world, whether you're at home with your family, whether I'm at school with students. Relationships are incredibly important. Our students learn best when they feel like teachers are vested in them and feel close to them and they want to learn from them. But I also have a very interesting take on that as well. There's a misconception in education a lot of times that we can love students into proficiency. We cannot love students into proficiency. We also can't legislate students into proficiency. No legislation that you pass is going to mandate

that students learn. You can mandate programs and policies, but we can't guarantee what's going to happen during the learning process. But we cannot go around with the mindset that all I have to do is love my students and they'll be fine. That love's a very, very important part of it. But they also have to have really high-level, rigorous academic content delivered to them in a way that allows them to pick it up and achieve. The relationship's very, very important, but the delivery of the academic content is how we're going to change their lives. And the way I look at it, Mike, is like this. I love my children.

You know, parents do. That's what we do. I also was really rough on them. Looking back, maybe a little too rough because I wanted them to be able to perform to their best ability so that they could go out into the world and pick the career and the type of life they wanted to build. And that's exactly how I feel about my students. I mean, if I'm listening for gem per second, you just had a lot. So, all right, let me start in reverse order. But before I drill in is that you,

so we're talking about love, we're talking about relationships, we're talking about proficiency. You're saying that you can't love or legislate students into proficiency. That's correct. They're important. Every piece of it is important. Okay. And then you talked about, you didn't use the word ruthlessness. I wrote it down. Rigorous and high-level delivery.

Rigorous and high-level delivery. And then you said, I'm helping people be their best, and sometimes I was a little too tough on them. Sure. My heart skipped when you said that. And I want to be great at that intersection of holding a standard. And the way that I do the standard bit is I close my eyes and I imagine what's possible for the person that I'm working with. And that's my work. And it's really sloppy just to kind of let it unfold and ask the person, like, what do you want? I've got to close my eyes

and feel and see and imagine what's possible. And then I share it back. And if we agree on what that is, then it's on. Then that's where the growth happens. Yeah. But that's also where all of the tension happens. Everything prior to that is easy. It's information gathering. And I'd love for you to teach the listener who wants the best for their people, who wants a proficiency, who wants a high standard, who feels the stress of an output, who's got, whether it's Wall Street breathing down their neck or their manager, and they must get it done, and they really want to get it done. How do you manage that tension of what we think somebody's capable of and holding that standard and maybe not doing it in such a harsh way?

Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs

or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat,

and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart,

he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here.

So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Right. And that's where your leadership skills come in. You know, by nature, teachers are pretty good leaders. We're in charge of multiple people every single day from all various

backgrounds, just like employers, just like your CEOs, your coaches, all of those. But to be able to do it in increments and to convince people that I care enough about you to want you to be able to do whatever this top level thing is, but I will walk in front of you until you're ready for me to walk beside you. And so a lot of times that pull, you know, when you're teaching, when you're coaching, you're doing things one small thing at a time. A lot of times we have hesitant learners. I'm sure there are a lot of hesitant employees who aren't sure, you know, this is necessarily the plan that I think that this entity needs to be following.

So leadership is so important, that relationship is important. But when you're the leader, you have to understand you are the leader and it is your responsibility to bring the other people along with you. Your goal is not to stay the leader. Your goal is to also create leaders because every organization is only as strong as the weakest leader that you have on your team. So you should want everyone, every kid in my classroom, I want to be a leader. You're not always going to have the kids who are the top academians, but you might have the kid who pitches in when he knows how to tie shoes that others don't. And trust me, when you're getting

ready to go somewhere in a hurry, that's a big skill. There's the tension I'm talking about. It's funny, we're a super high level. And then all of a sudden you dropped right into like, let me make it practical. We're talking about tying shoes sometimes. Yes, to get out the door, to get out the door. Yeah, it's funny how, not funny, it was meaningful to us an early one of my son's teachers said, that's the moment. When those moments happen, that breathe, and that's the teaching moment. So in that tension is where the teaching can happen. And then she did something really brilliant for my wife and I. She said, look, be late to school. It's okay. It's okay. It's fine. You know, like, like the scar tissue that comes with hurry up, get your shoes. Like we're doing this again. Oh my, you know,

that scar tissue. So yeah, we, we were kind of late here and there, you know, and it really was a nice gift. Okay. That doesn't happen in sport. Sure. And it doesn't happen. Just wait to call that timeout. the 30-point run. Yeah. So a matter of fact, like at the Seattle Seahawks, there's only three rules in the organization. And rule number one was be early. Oh, okay. Yeah. Not be on time.

Yeah. Be early. Yeah. Have your life organized in such a way. That you're always early. Where your priorities are set, that you are early as a demonstration that you're part of something. I personally adhere to that philosophy, so I like that. You were here early.

I love, yes, absolutely. And so what are your core priorities when you think about those? My core priorities for my profession? Yes. To make sure that kids are as prepared as they can be to go on and achieve what they need to at the next level. Because our education system is built on a continuum of skills. If you get behind in the beginning, you're going to be behind. If you do not get caught up, there comes a time when you're not going to be caught up. So my whole goal is to make sure that I push my students as far as I can during the time that I have them so that they're able to keep climbing up that continuum and then eventually go out into the world and create a

really good future for themselves, regardless of where they came from, what was expected of them, because we have to all have a really high level belief when we're working with children, with adults, with any organization, that everyone within your organization can achieve, everyone can do, and everyone has a part. Are those three something that are clear for you? Those are very clear for me. Do, achieve, and be part. Yes. So how does doing and achieving differentiate?

What is the differentiation between those two for you? Doing means that you're learning how to do it, but you don't have that confidence. You don't have that mastery. You don't feel like you can do it most of the time. For me, the achieving is knowing that you can do it most of the time. It doesn't mean you're going to do it every time because the situations and everything change. The tasks change.

You may not have had enough sleep the night before. You might not be feeling well. You might have been late for school because your dad couldn't find his car keys. But achieving means that most of the time, you're able to, number one, either do whatever task you need to be doing, or when you get frustrated, you don't shut down. You can think yourself through it, approach it from a different lens, and still manage to get to a resolution.

Wait, wait, pause there. Is that, sorry to interrupt. No, no. Is that, are you talking to your teacher or are you talking for the kid? For everyone. For everyone. For everyone. And how do you teach that skill? I love what you just said so much because you can have all of the requisite skills, but at the moment that there's heat in the environment, internally, externally, there's

pressure, stress, whatever, there's a constriction where we choke off access to be able to do those skills fluently. And so the wider we can keep the aperture, the better off we're able to access our skills. How do you teach that skill of working well with stress? I think there's a level of confidence that comes when you know you can do something. And a lot of times you have to understand, I can do this. It's going to take me a second or two to be able to figure it out. But, you know, teaching those, that management of stress to students is incredibly important. And our teachers do that every day. You know, there are so many technologies that

are available to us in education, more than any other time. But it's only a human teacher who picks up on, hey, this is too much at this moment. Step away. We'll come back to it in only a human teacher who picks up on hey this is too much at this moment step away we'll come back to it in just a second or there's only a human teacher who's able to say look at it from this angle because every single time that we solve a problem in a different way it gives us a different pathway to do something and it doesn't have to be that situation. We're going to apply that in other parts of our life. Oh, okay. And so you're talking, again, about the relationship as well. Sure.

The relationship with stress, the relationship with the other person. And then you're talking about love is necessary, not sufficient. Okay. And you had mentioned that you want, I wrote it down, you want the students to feel that you're interested in them and close to them. Yes. So help me understand the process that you take to do that, the process you take to hold the tension for something better, and the process that you take when it's really difficult and the doing

and achieving are not even close to happening. They come much later. So one of the things that I think teachers do a really good job at is being honest with students. I feel like we don't ever say... I could stay on this part of the conversation for a long time. It's really wrong to say to a kid, to an adult who has no idea how to do something, this is going to be easy. Because the first time, it is not going to be easy. So in my classroom, I'm sort of the opposite. A lot of times, I will be brutally honest. This is going to be hard.

We will break it up and do it together. But I always assure them this way, especially even in the middle of that, you know, whether you're doing long division and the kid has absolutely no idea, to say to the child, today is the hardest it will ever be. And I found that that, for whatever reason, is a real confidence soother. And then the next day, we make a bigger deal. Hey, this was lots better today. Yesterday was harder, but it will never be as hard as it was yesterday. Again, that first time is always going to be hard. So you kind of build up that confidence in little steps and that every single part that they're able to feel confident in,

then they're able to go on and achieve more to go further and to feel better about doing it so that when it does become stressful, whether it's a test, whether they're trying to do it in a game that they want to perform well in for their team as part of the classroom activity, that they feel more confident in it. Yeah, so you describe confidence without giving a definition that it's what you say to yourself. Sure. And how do you say to yourself? So what you're doing as a teacher is giving them a way to think about their engagement. Sure. So that they can say to themselves, this is really hard and I can do hard things. Yes.

Okay. And is that how you demonstrate closeness to them is by helping them realize or understand that you understand their experience? Yes. And even to like share your own experience, I think is powerful. I was not a strong math student at all. It was really difficult for me. I was one of those kids that could read and write everything.

Math was more difficult. And so a lot of times I will actually be very honest and say, listen, I had a really hard time with math. I remember doing this, but this made it easier. And now I know how to do it. Because I think a lot of times when you're the top of anything, whether you're the teacher that is the top of that classroom structure, or you're the top person in sports, it makes it look like you didn't really have to work for it. You just appeared and there you were and you had all these skills. And that's not the way that improving at anything works. All of us, even if you have the ability, you have to work at being able to achieve. Do you have a model that you use for mastery or for achievement that comes to the surface for you?

In education, there are models for everything. We have rubrics for absolutely everything. And so you can be driven by the data, and teachers are. We have to be. It's the nature of our job. The best data, though, that we can use is the child in front of you, seeing how that student is handling that lesson, handling what he or she needs to be doing, and then to build and pull from there. And what are you looking at when you're watching and observing closely? A lot of times frustration levels. Oh, so you're coaching or teaching to frustration. Yes. Very cool.

And sometimes teaching to frustration. Yes. Very cool. And sometimes teaching through frustration. Yeah. So at the moment when you see – oh, give me an example of an interaction where somebody's frustrated. So whenever I was in the general classroom, I taught first and second grades for 30 years. One of the hardest skills to teach to first and second graders is technically called subtraction with regrouping. That's like where you have 46 minus 19. And you can't come over there and do 6 minus 9. That's impossible.

It's also not beneficial to draw out 46 of something and mark out 19. Kids will do that, and that's a strategy. And it will get it finished, but there's a more efficient way. That's a very difficult skill for first and second graders. And so when we first started it, we would do all these things with blocks and cubes to kind of developmentally get it in their head. But you still have those students that just weren't ready for that. But they have to be ready for that because it's a skill they have to have to progress on to other skills. And so you would walk through, and a lot of times I would say, do the first three and then I'll check

the first three and tell you if you can keep going or if we need to look at it again. And you can just see the frustration. You can see the frustration even when you have the manipulatives out and you have the blocks out if a kid is frustrated or not. And if you let them get to the point where they are completely frustrated, you've lost them. Not only have you lost them for that day, you may have lost them in a much broader sense. So you've got to work through that frustration. And that applies with your kids, you know, at home as well. I was a parent. You know, the kids that I sent to school were not the same kids that came home to my house. Yours are probably the same. The teacher says they're wonderful and they don't ever act like that. And then they have a full-on breakdown at your house.

I had those kids too. I didn't have everybody else's kids like that, thankfully, but my own kids were that way. And that was hard for me as a parent. That was very difficult for me. So before we move to parenting, let's stay with the crosswalk to leadership. Do you think that structure also holds true for adults, which is the leader gives them a handful of things to see if they can do it, and then comes back around quickly to see if they can move on to the next thing. Yes, I do. I was really, really fortunate to have a principal, the same principal, for around 20 years. And he was marvelous. He wanted to pull leadership skills out of everyone because he understood that was what was going to make our school system strong. He was always close, but he gave you enough space to figure out if you could do it. But then he swooped in at the right time and offered

the reassurance that you needed to be able to do whatever it was he was asking you to do. For example? For example, as a young teacher, I was actually asked to help write the school system plan for the state. I'd taught two years. I was not very familiar with the lingo, embarrassingly enough so that a friend and I who had taught about the same amount of time were working on this. And he was, you know, kind of revolutionary. A lot of the older people are like, why are you asking them? They've only been here, you know, two years. And his theory was, it is, you know, this is the framework for our school. Everyone needs to understand what goes into this, what we're expecting, what we're saying that we're doing. So the word was quartiles,

you know, like you divide something into fourth, you have quartiles. We were so unfamiliar with the lingo that whenever we typed it, we typed core, C-O-R-E, tiles all the way through the document. Oh, my goodness. That is great. So we send the document. Well, we don't even send it to him. This is before you sent it. You just typed it on the computer.

It printed out. And he came back, and he was like, okay, you guys did a really great job of explaining the literacy plan and how we're going to break it down into these core tiles. But let's go back and look because this word is actually quartiles. We're dividing it into four parts. Your math trauma coming back to you. Yeah, my math trauma. But he could have totally squelched my spirit. And I would have never wanted to be involved with something of that level again, but he didn't. He didn't. He taught me. He led me through it. And now I love policy.

I love that angle of education. So how did he do that? He was gentle. He was gentle and used some humor. Used some humor in that, explained how it worked, and then gave it back to me to do again. He didn't do it for me. So he gave it back to you and he said, okay, take another turn at it. Take it and let's try do again. He didn't do it for me. So let's give it back to you. And he said, okay, take another turn at it. Take it and let's try it again. What would happen? How would you manage that? Flip roles, right? That you're giving that project to another adult. And they had that, and you worked well with the core tiles and you worked well with that and you had some fun and you gave it back to them. But now it's late.

Let's say that the first pass was, I don't know, a week late. The person that gave it to you was a week overdue. And there's good reasons, let's say. And there's a kind of a fundamental thing that needs to get fixed. And it's got to have a fast turn. And it just doesn't look like it's going to get done. How do you manage that? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're

leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentous Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So, you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the momentous three protein creatine and omega-3 and together

these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover,

to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky

color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMasterINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. That's tough. That's tough. And that's been tough for me the older I get I'm on the older end now in this field working with this latest generation It's a little bit different I feel like that those are things that we have to meet in the middle And sometimes there's not a lot of meeting in the middle

And that requires that you have to choose at that time What's going to be important to me at this moment Getting it done, getting it turned in when it needs to be turned in, or me just totally taking it back. And I feel like sometimes when you're in those powerful positions, I mean, we're talking like CEOs, they do have to take it back because they will be the first in line if something happens. If that report's not submitted and stockholders wanted it, they're going to be the very first one in line to be accountable for that. So we can't release accountability simply because we're always worried about our perception as a leader because you are ultimately the leader. You're ultimately the person in charge of that. So let's talk about accountability because one of the things I love about school is that there's grades. And hopefully, effort with the

right type of teaching and you would get the requisite grade if you applied yourself. And in business, we don't really have... In sport, there's grades. Just about everything is statted. There's every ball that you catch, every ball that you drop, every route that you run. Well, not well. There's a piece of data and it's public. And watched repeatedly. And watched repeatedly. And it's very public. And so how do you work with the public nature of accountability? And how do you work with just holding another person accountable to better work,

to their best work? Yeah. And both angles of that are hard because it's really, really hard to bump down the level of learning that happens within a school to just a set of numbers. Our students don't come to us all the same. I'm in a public school, a pre-K through eight public school. Our students don't all come in prepared the same way. So we have some top achievers, and then we have some who come to us developmentally delayed through no fault of their own. They just haven't had the stimulating environment that they needed before they came to us. And so to bump that down to one number or one metric that's published in your newspaper and on the radio, all over social media is unfair. But the day-to-day

accountability of students is probably the most important because not only are we teaching skills, we're teaching kids how to navigate life. Do you just quit when something is hard? Do you keep going because you know that's what you're supposed to do. It's developing a work ethic in them so that they can go forth and do important things. So let's open that up about work ethic. How do you go about fostering the ethic, the value of work? And that one's hard. You have some students who come in and they already are incredibly driven, you know, whether they're driven by wanting to please parents or they just have this innate drive with absolutely no explainer in their background that would justify why this student has this drive. And then you have those that just literally, it feels like they don't want to do anything. The most frustrating situation is

when you have those students and really no one within their home is frustrated about that situation. Because sometimes you have it and parents are really top achievers, want the kid to do really well. And the kid's like, you know, just kind of laid back. But you have to find a way to motivate those students. And a lot of times that comes by giving them opportunities to shine in things so that they feel better about themselves. Because the more you feel better about yourself, the higher your self-esteem is, you're going to want to do more. And that's a very tricky balance. If I'm doing an activity that's hard, a lot of times I'll have a kid get frustrated and say, I just don't want to do this. And they completely give up. I mean, they're just not motivated at all. But you

pull them in bit by bit. Okay, just do the first, take that first step for me. Oh, good, you did that. Do you think you can add another one to it? I'm thinking of an activity that I did a few years ago where we were making 3D models and we had marshmallows, which I know you like to talk about. You had marshmallows and toothpicks and it was a model of a cube. And so all I did at first was to hand them the marshmallows and the cube and just kind of watch and see what would happen. And it was really kind of amazing to watch that because some of my most academic students struggled with that because it was a fine motor task. And getting those toothpicks to stick in there and form that base at the bottom, they wanted to start at the top and build from the top down. And it's just like life,

you start at the bottom and you build and you build up. But that frustration level of that activity was through the roof until I said, okay, we're going to do the first one together, take everything apart. Someone tell me what we do first, and let the kids lead us through it. And then it was amazing that even the most resistant kid to wanting to try it, the one who was most resistant was like, oh, I know what's going to happen. I know what's going to happen. because they felt confident after we had done that first step together. And when frustration, I'm going to go back to the frustration piece because that's like the choke point. When that frustration is happening, what do you do? I get to ask the best teacher in the country. What do you do?

I am not the best teacher in the country. I get to advocate for all three and a half million of our wonderful teachers out there. Trust me, I have those days when I'm sure people would be like, what were they thinking? There are people in my building that are probably still thinking that. Oh, I'm coming back to that. But what? Oh, I'm coming back to that. Oh, okay. Okay. So sometimes the best thing is that you walk away. If you become a crutch, if you have that kid who is constantly looking at you for reassurance. I mean, we're talking all day, every day. I can't do anything by myself unless she is close. I need to feel her magnetic personality next to me. Sometimes during those frustration times, you need to walk away.

Let them take a moment and figure it out. Because if I always lead them through the steps, I'm not going to be there when they're 30. And so I will say that even when you're 30, I'm not going to come to your house and show you how to zip this coat. We've done it. You can show me how to zip the coat. And I know that's a non-academic thing,

but those are our little things that are life skills and it applies to academics as well. So sometimes you just have to step away. Sometimes you can coach them through it, but sometimes you have to step away and let them be frustrated. Being frustrated is when our brain makes pathways. That's the reality of learning. I love that you're talking about this because this principle that we're talking about shows up in elite sport. Sure. And matter of fact, we coach coaches. It's something that like, I don't know, call it like the Super Bowl or heading into a world championships or the Olympics.

Great coaches bring this to the surface and they say, hey, everyone, let's not over coach. Yeah, let them figure it out. Yeah. Let them figure it out. So I just got back from supporting a team in Paris, Canadian volleyball, and it was amazing. The two athletes, they took silver. The two athletes, Melissa and Brandi Wilkerson. It was an amazing moment.

And the coach, Marcio Sicoli, he leans in. This is right before kind of the first match. Warm-ups were great. And he leans in and he says, go out there and open up all your senses. Smart. Isn't that? Yeah. Go open up all your senses. Pull everything. Pull everything

that you've done to get you here and get through it. In education, we call that the productive struggle. It's called the productive struggle, that it will produce if you allow them to struggle through it. Productive struggle. But they do have to struggle. Okay okay it's just part of learning i want to hit that because the open up your senses is not over coaching it's not hold your frame do this yeah make sure you attack here remember the corner there open up your senses use what you know yeah gather the information it's like be more of a be more animal more animalistic in the way that you're responding to the environment. And it's so good. Now, you said you were talking about the frustration points.

No, that's not the phrase you just used. Productive struggle. So the productive struggle is giving them the space to struggle through something. What is unproductive and what is productive struggle? Unproductive is that you are to the point where you knock everything off the table, you rip your paper off, you put your head down, you have a tantrum, and you refuse to do it. That's unproductive. Okay, got it.

Check. Good teachers can have that off. Good teachers can have that off. Good teachers can have that off. We can see that that's happening. How would a national, the best teacher, let me say it again. Not the best. Just the representative for the teachers. How would you do that?

How would you hedge that? A lot of times, go get a drink of water. Why don't you walk outside? Not outside the building. That would be dangerous. Walk outside our classroom to the end of the hallway. Get a drink. Take a break. Come back. Because when you get to the point where you are that frustrated that you're not making any inroads, you're not learning. You're not learning. And a lot of times with the frustration level that students have, especially if they're very vocal about that, then they begin to interrupt the learning of everyone around them, which is unfair. Yes, that's unfair.

Yeah, very cool. So you're hitting the three when it comes to internal motivation, internal drive. DC and Ryan presented a model that helps somebody have high competence, help them have a sense of autonomy, and then make sure that their relationships are intact. When those three are intact, competency, autonomy, and relationships, you get somebody that's internally driven. You hit all three of those. You've talked about all three of those. And the autonomy bit is like, let them be frustrated, like let them get to a place, but make sure that you don't miss the sensitive window. If you let them, let them, it sounds controlling, but if you miss that sensitive window on the other side of it, it is really hard to reel it back. It is, and it becomes about you.

Oh, tell me more. It becomes about you because you already know how to do it. You walking them through every single step of the way doesn't help them at all. Oh, so there's two sensitive windows. So yeah, you're, so the, okay, so there's the march up if you're doing too much. Yeah. And then there's that sensitive window for productive. Yes. What, give me the word again. Productive struggle.

Then there's that window for productive struggle. And if you're on the outside of that window where they've gone too frustrated, they're too much struggle. Okay, that's really cool framing. I appreciate that a lot. Okay, now you said sometimes people wonder, why me? Tell me about that narrative. That is every single day as I walk through the studio,

like when we got here, walking through the door. That was my question. Why do I get to live this life? I swear it is. And every single time that I'm introduced to this time, I tear up as they're reading my bio, you know, in the walk up before it's time for me to walk up and keynote or do whatever I'm doing. I still tear up. You know, why do I get to be the one to lead this life right now and to get to represent America's teachers? There are three and a half million incredible teachers out here working, you know, to just ensure that our democracy continues by supplying, you know, productive citizens who are educated and ready to go out into the workforce and careers and so forth. But why do I get to be the one?

And how do you wrestle with that internally? It's tough. It's tough with an incredible sense of gratitude, of just this amazing sense of gratitude that I'm where I am and that I get to use my voice hopefully to impact policies that will positively affect our students and teachers. I'm from a very, very small town, rural East Tennessee. Not exactly, you know, I will never be the loudest person in the room. Definitely have opinions that I don't

care to share, but to just be given. That you do not care to share? Not usually. I just wanted to make sure I heard you say that. Yeah, usually I'm okay with sharing them if it's something I'm really, really passionate about. So just to have this amazing opportunity, and especially at this point in my career. So you're grounding in gratitude. Absolutely. And how do I know that that's not just the nice thing to say? I know.

Because that's what everyone should say. I've just always had, I think, that lens of being grateful. I think that we have a choice. I do too. And our choice is we can be grateful for the good things and work toward making the things that aren't wonderful better, or we can get really, really better about it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've

built intentional routines into the way that I close my day and Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently,

which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine throw on their lounge pants or pajamas crawl into bed under their sheets and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100 night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding which tells me tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great

discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of

intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I believe you to be clear. And, and it's

also, I don't think you're in a marketing mind. I listen for the marketing mind and I'm trying to pierce right through it because it's boring and it's written and it's campy. And so the reason I asked that question was more for the listener, not for you and me. Okay. Right? Was because how do we really know if somebody's grounded in gratitude? You just show up that way. Try to. Try to. Yeah, sometimes you're self-absorbed, you mean? Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. Everyone is. That's why we get up and get ready every day. There's that part of it too.

That's why we do preparation because in your book, you talk about the fear of other people's opinions. And when I was reading your book, initially, I was like, what is wrong with me? Because this is not... I don't spend a lot of time worried about what people think that... But then as you got further into the book, I was like, yeah, I do prepare so that I look as though I know what I'm doing. So yes, I guess I do have a fear of of people's you know opinions i think it's um it's we need if you don't have it you're probably a sociopath you may need you know maybe a truly enlightened you know it's the management it's the recognizing of it and working with it that puts us on the path. Sure. So, okay, I absolutely believe that you're grateful. And then can you point to your purpose in life?

Do you have a sense of what that is? I do. And it's evolved through the years. And I think it's one of those things that once I sort of embraced it and instead of fighting it, that it became easier. So I was your typical older child. I don't know what that means. That means that I feel personally like sometimes parents,

because we don't know what we're doing the first time. Well, I didn't know what I was doing the second time either. Wait, what does first time the first time. Well, I didn't know what I was doing the second time either, but- Wait, wait, wait. What does first time and second time mean? Between parenting, the first child and the second child, because there's a difference. I thought you were going, first time I was here on this planet, and now the second time I'm here. No, no, no. And the parenting lens, and there is a difference. I recognize that with myself. I see it. And in my job, the over-the-top parents, you know, who the kid had to always be the top flyer in the class, you know, by the time they've had three

or four, they're like, he came with shoes on today and that's all good. You know, the kid's going to be fine. But I felt as though I needed to take care of everyone. And for a long time, I fought that and still do fight it. I feel like I require a lot of my students. Are your parents still alive? No, no. I lost my dad to acute myeloid leukemia in 2019, and my mom died. She was not in very good health, but she died pretty suddenly in 2016. So within the past eight years, I've lost both. Are you still in the grieving process? Probably always will be in different ways. It does take different forms. Sure. Yeah. How intense is it for you, the grieving process now? I'm to the point now, particularly with my dad, where when I think

about him, I smile. And I think about the good things. And that's what I try to tell students. You know, I go through a lot of students who lose grandparents. That's very, very common. Unfortunately, I live in a part of Appalachia that struggles with drug addiction. So occasionally, we have within my school students who lose parents. That's hard. And when we have those kids, if I'm honored to be part of that conversation with that kid that trusts me to say, you know, it's a rough day. I miss my mom or dad. I always try to say, there will come a time when you think about your mom and you'll smile. That will be your first reaction. And I feel like we turn a corner

when we get to that grief. It's very difficult to watch kids go through a very adult process. Yeah, it's tricky. It's really tricky. The reason I was asking is because you're pointing to a pattern of codependency. Sure. And that's kind of the other side that you've probably worked through. And the reason I'm just picking up on that is because, and the reason I asked about your parents was, was there addiction? Was there some kind of heavy thing in the family that led you to want to take care of everyone? There was. There was no addiction. And I was very well loved. We

had good parents who were not happy in their relationship with each other. Well, there's the drama. Yeah. There was no domestic violence, but there was loudness. There was screaming. There were breaking things. There were hitting doors. And so at a really young age, I figured out, you know, get my little sister, kind of take her and shield her. And I think for me, that was how the whole taking care of everyone kind of evolved. And a lot of times I overstep bounds trying to fix things for people and do things for people, but it is out of an attitude of wanting to take care of them. Well, that was born out of probably a survival tactic. It was a survival. Right. Which is like, look, it's really loud and messy around here.

Yeah. It's explosive. And if I'm explosive and emotionally volatile, that's going to be bad because then the heat's coming my way. So let me be the star. Let me be the angel. Let me be the high performer. Let me be the one that protects.

Let me take care. And so I'm so glad that we're talking about this let me be the angel let me be the one the high performer let me be the one that protects let me take care and so i'm so glad that we're talking about this because if we don't understand where we come from and why we've built this psychological framework that we're operating from we don't get to evolve or open the aperture to allow our true self to arise. Yes. Right? Yes. Like I have a fundamental belief that the person inside of me that I know I'm capable of being is really peaceful, is really present, is really kind.

And when I'm pushing hard, I'm agitated. And where does that come from? Why am I working so hard? It's because of my unique family structure. And so I just thank you for bringing that forward. So I'm not sure that we're at a place in our society where people are talking about how they became excellent. And I'm pointing to you. Because that's hard yeah like that's hard to to

accept that others think of you that way when you don't always feel that yourself yeah meaning that you're the best teacher in the country i know okay so and you're saying look i i had some stuff early on. Sure. And it worked well. But if it kept going, I'd probably be like, be whacked out, like always taking care of other people. Yeah. And I struggle with that because a lot of times I feel like I push this desire onto my students to also be the one who takes care of everyone because it's what I know. And so it's what I have really high expectations for them. And I probably have lowered expectations for adults, if that makes sense, because I don't understand that. But that is something that I struggle with. If we work together, I would be way more inclined to hopping in and taking a task off of you

than I would one of my students because I feel like my students have to learn it in order to be autonomous and be able to do the things they need to know how to do. I don't know if that is just my taking care of them or if it is that frustration that you mentioned where I'm just like, forget it, I'll just do it. It's so much easier if I just do it. Because I am the best teacher. No, I am not the best teacher, I promise you. There are people sitting in Rogersville, Tennessee who are going, oh, she's telling the truth. She is not the best teacher, let me tell you.

That's really fun. Yeah. What a joy. I think about if I was being led by you, whether it was when I was younger or in a professional setting, I'd be like, oh, she's going to hold a standard. She's going to be caring and kind. And I think there's a survival mechanism, like a life vest there for me. But man, like it's not always there. I better learn how to paddle and swim. I feel like you've got this kind of, it's not magic, the right tension between care and autonomy and like really getting things done.

I love this part of our conversation. That's what you're holding for me is the caring and then the struggle and allowing those two to be present. And I know you value excellence. Can you open up that concept just a little bit? What excellence means to you? What a great day is related to excellence? And let's just talk about as adults for a minute, as parents and adults for a minute, not for what you're trying to cultivate for your kids. I think for me, excellence means that you're able to do things at a high level and you know that you are able to. And so most of the time you do. Doesn't mean that you're always perfect. Doesn't mean that you're the perfect parent. Doesn't mean that you're always perfect. Doesn't mean that you're the perfect parent. Doesn't mean that you're the perfect community member. But you do have those capabilities. But

it's rooted in your desire to help others and to make things better. And I say this as someone, you know, with the background we talked about. We have to be really careful in society now that we don't overcompensate and take away the things that made us stronger leaders because we're trying to make things easier. And that was a real struggle in me as a parent. I wanted to give them everything, make sure that they had opportunities and so forth. But then I look, I had to become sort of independent as a young child. I don't want to take that away from them. And that's hard. That's the hardest for me, the hardest part of parenting is that. What does winning the day mean to you? Oh, winning the day means that you made it through the day. It was a good day. It didn't

have to be like a top flyer day where everyone got everything. It could be that things are hard the next day and you know it, but you feel like that you got finished what you needed to get finished, and there's another day, another time to try. What do great teachers do? Great teachers always invest in students. We see that we're not raising kids. We're raising adults.

So each path that we take has to help move them forward to that in a way that's appropriate, in a way that's appropriate that allows them to still have joy and to have the joy of childhood because there's so much joy in childhood. There should always be joy in childhood. What do you wish parents would do just a little bit better? In the digital age, really listening to your kids, having conversations with your kids. I'm so thankful that cell phones and digital media were not around when I had kids. That concerns me.

A lot of times I see in the car pickup line, a car pull up, kid gets in, no one says, how was your day? Mom or dad's on the phone. They're engrossed in their own things. And it's not that they're not caring parents. It's just that we have all of this technology available. But the best investment that you can make for your kid's education and also your kid's social emotional health is to talk to him or her. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset.

It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth.

It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product.

I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community,

right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash you use the code findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much.

And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their Chill Collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery.

Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com

plus an extra $50 off when you use the code findingmastery at checkout. That's lisa, L-E-E-S-A.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. To hear their fears, to give them that background knowledge, that wisdom that you have that they don't have at 10, 11, 12 years old. What's a great way to get into that conversation in a car? Windshield time. I love it. Yeah. I always loved when my kids were in the car, they were a captive audience. They can't go anywhere. A lot of times when you ask open-ended things like, how was your day? They're going to be like, fine. Every day, everybody's day is fine. What was something that was frustrating today? What do you, I mean,

little things. What did you eat for lunch? What do you have coming on this week that's maybe worrying you a little bit? As asking more specific questions. How much do you elicit responses versus teach? Like actually teach, like, hey, listen, that happens. Do you know why that happened? No, Mom, I don't. Well, can I offer you a thought here? Sure. But sometimes-

My son's 16, right? I kind of figured you had teenagers. Yeah, this is 16. So how much do you teach in the car ride home? Yeah. but I kind of figured you had teenagers. So how much do you teach in the car ride home? And how much do you ask questions and asking questions as a form of teaching, but I'm talking about like explicit. I think it's a good balance, but I think a lot of times, and I'm so thankful to hear you that you pick up on this.

You're 16 year old still needs teaching. I think a lot of times we think, Oh, they get to the certain age. They're fine. I did more teaching between 16 up to college than any other time with my own kids because that whole frontal cortex thing is the truth. Because I was really lucky, had super mature, probably because I expected so much of them, but had super mature kids until a certain point when I did not. And I was like, what is wrong with you? But I had to do a lot of teaching during that time just about this is how life works. And sometimes those are conversations like, if you're with people and they're throwing rocks out of cars, you will also go to jail because those are things that they don't automatically know.

There's a lot of teaching. I know, Mom. I know, Mom. But they don't know. I'm not doing that. But they really – I'll tell you, this was just yesterday, is that the car ride home from sport is probably one of the trickiest moments in the kids' day. They're switched on. They're activated. Maybe they had a great practice.

Maybe it was tough. And I always ask, how was practice? And then if there's something there, we talk. And if there's not something there, we talk. So last night, he wanted to talk a little bit about it. And I just ask a lot of questions. I don't do a lot of teaching. And then when there's live stuff, I'll get into teaching.

And my wife was with, we go together. It's date night for us. So practice for him is from seven to nine. I remember those days, yes. And so she's in the car and she goes, so you've got your something, like what do you do when you go like away from school for a day? What's that called? Not a retreat.

What is it? A sabbatical? Not a sabbatical. You just go away for a day. What's that? You get a day off. Well, if you're a teacher, you have to like leave three pages of notes for what everyone's going to do so you can be off a day. So I'm not.

No, it's not an in-service day. It's the kid goes away. I'm looking at my screen. A field trip. A field trip. Oh, yeah, a field trip. Let me pick up. Sorry about that.

That's good. And so my wife says, you've got your field trip tomorrow. And he says, yep. And then she says, so what are you bringing? And he said, nothing. Oh, no. And my wife says, what do you mean? And he nothing oh no and and my wife says what do you mean and he goes no i don't have to bring anything and she goes nothing no book no backpack you know

like nothing no food right and he goes no and now he's starting to get a little frustrated and he says the assignment is we're taking pictures so i need to take my phone and then my wife says okay what about if your your battery goes dead quickly on your phone? Want to build a backup battery? Because if your phone's not working, it's a failed assignment. And he goes, no, mom, I got it. And so he's a little short and frustrated. And she goes, look, you just got back from this thing. You left your computer in the hotel. She just had these three things. And I look at my, and all of his body language turns to the window, and he's looking at the window, and he's so frustrated.

And he didn't want to hear it. But she had a point. Oh, my God. It was a very big point. At first, I was like, well, really piling on here? And then she's like, no, I'm making a point that plan ahead. Yeah. And then I love that she did this.

She says, and she calls him Buddy. And Buddy, this is your trip. So maybe just think about it. And I hope you make the right choice for you. Whether it's going empty handed and just kind of being a renegade. Part of that stepping back that we talked about. She's going to let him be responsible. Don't be the parent that drops things off.

Whenever I taught first and second grades, I would always tell parents at the beginning of the year, there's really, unless it's a medication, there is nothing that you need to bring that they forget. We will figure it out here. The cafeteria has lunches because the very same people who were dropping off in kindergarten and first grade are dropping off in high school because the child never learns that autonomy of learning to pack their own things and take accountability for themselves. So kudos to your wife that she gave advice, she taught, and then she said, hey, it's your day. Lovingly. Yeah, lovingly. Without like, it's your day. It's your day.

But we do have to teach them that. And I'm interested to know, was your son like before this, was he one of those kids that you thought, I'll never have to have these conversations with him? No, no, no. My son is like, what's in front of him, he's really thoughtful and kind and really strong in spirit. And what's ever in front of him is the thing that he's going to really apply himself to. But later, I don't know. Yeah. So like thinking ahead is not a thing at this point yet for him.

Mine went from really intense thinkers to by the seat of their pants. Yeah, yeah. They reigned it back in. They reigned it back in. So let's talk about, just quickly pivot to your thoughts about AI in the classroom and what's the future state. Like if you and I are having this conversation in five years about the classroom, what do you think it's going to be? Any concerns, things you're excited about?

Obviously, there are concerns, but it's here to stay. The technology is here to stay. And heretofore, we've never been at a point in American history where we've gotten technology, and then it's just necessarily gone away. It's here to stay. I think particularly in the lands of those people teaching high school and college, it's a little different. When does it become using it as a tool to help you use it as a scaffold to do something? You know, you put in an outline and it gives you some help. But how do you make that your work? And for them, I think the whole issue is going to be, is this work that they actually did or had any input? And we're just in the infancy stages of using this in classrooms. It is definitely here to stay. And I'm a little older. I'm not your typical 35-year-old National Teacher of the Year.

I'm on the other end of that. And a lot of times I'm resistant to those things. But the reality is we don't make progress unless we see the importance of new technology. So the California Teacher of the Year is actually a great guy named Casey Cooney. and he is like our state teacher of the year cohort resident AI guy. How does he feel to losing to you? No, we don't say it that way at all. Trust me. Your pause was like, why would you ever ask that? I was like, why are you doing that? Listen, you talk about a top-notch winner, but he is constantly not just teaching his students ways to use AI to make them better students.

He's teaching us. We have a group, me, and he will constantly put things in there. And he's like, hey, did you guys know you can do this? You can do this on Canva with a slideshow. And I'm a little resistant to technology. I'll own that. A lot of it's my age and the fact that, you know, sometimes it takes me longer to learn something than to just do it the way I know, even if the way I know is not as efficient. You

know, that's another one of those character quirks. But I've implemented some of the suggestions and it has made my life easier. And so obviously our students are going to need those same things. It's being used in the business world to write plans, to write sales reports, and so forth. So we have to embrace it. There will have to be policies, you know, developed along the way, but we can't throw out the whole idea of it just because we're afraid kids might misuse it. Kids have misused everything. I mean, they're smart. They will figure out how to misuse anything, you know, if given the opportunity opportunity because that's human survival. They're not misusing it as much as they're using their resources that are available to them.

Yeah, I want Grayson to figure it out how to use it well. Yeah, absolutely. I want him to figure it out. Because it's going to be here moving forward. Yeah. It's going to be here. Yeah, and I also want them to just use the this big noggin to discern yes you know and to develop emotional skills and and for me that

will be the part that determines if this is incredibly successful in five years yeah or if it kind of levels off were people able to use the background that they know, what they have up here, their own objective rationality into seeing, was this actually accurate? Is this actually sending across the message that I want to send? So you're still using intelligence quotient to do that. And if you had a magic wand, what age would you have social media enter the kids? As late as possible. As late as possible. 18? Oh, that would be fabulous. I realize that's not likely. So I am one of those interesting women who had kids in two different millenniums. I had a baby in the 1990s and I had one in the 2000s,

which is kind of interesting different decades centuries millenniums the older one first got a cell phone in sixth or seventh grade and it was to orchestrate sports pickups like you're talking about practice had been you know let out because it was raining in that part of town not my part of town got there he's by himself he it was a flip phone did not have internet used it mainly for texting other people that were on the bus with him on ballgame nights. My younger one got a phone around the same age, had internet. It coincided perfectly with the timing of Instagram and those things. And if you're familiar with Jonathan Haidt and all of his work surrounding the anxious generation, which I know that you are, there's real value in what he says.

Oh, yeah. I think what he's done is great. I think he pointed to 15 or 16. He said 13 was a joke. That's probably the worst time. Is it New Zealand, Australia? Someone will correct me here that I think they just moved it to 16. Yeah.

I think it is. Australia? I think it is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So my son's 16. He's got Snapchat and that's it.

And so that's a little bit of a communication. And so like he's asked for it and I'm like, what do you need it for? Like really? You know, like let's wire this thing as best as we possibly can. I love that he is not on social media. Yeah. I love it. I would be thankful for that.

And his school did everybody a huge favor, is they took cell phones away this year. Yes. Great choice. And that helps parents as well, because you don't have to be the parent who's not sending the phone. But I didn't have Instagram until I became National Teacher of the Year. Did not.

Did not. I had Twitter for news and sports updates. I did not have Instagram. And immediately I started getting requests from first and second graders in my school to follow me, which is sweet. But I'm like, why in the world, why do they have a phone, number one? Number two, why are they on Instagram? All right. So let's clear your palate, a couple of quick hits. Sure. Okay. It all comes down to?

How hard you're willing to work to help others succeed. Success is? Knowing that you can do something and being help others succeed. Successes. Knowing that you can do something and being confident that you can do it. My vision is. That we all get to a point in our country where we treat each other with equality and inclusivity again. Again. I am. So grateful for this opportunity

Awesome Who tells you no? Lots of people My husband is my steadying arm A lot of times when I want to react out of anger He is the one that calms me down And helps me rationally think through things So it isn't he's telling me no

He's helping me think through the angles. Mastery is? Knowing how to do something most of the time or being able to work through it to get a resolution. Very cool. And if you had the chance to sit with one master, whoever that would be. And you only had one question. Who would the person be and what would that one question be? Wow. That one's really, really deep because obviously, my faith is a very big part of my life, but I could not narrow that down to asking Jesus Christ one question. It would be like a laundry list of questions. Come on, do it. Play along. One question to Jesus.

Oh, one question to Jesus. Why do some people have a harder path than I do? Very cool question. Because that is something that I think of a lot. Why have I been very lucky to have had this life that I have when others have not had the same opportunities? So one question to Jesus would be based out of gratitude. Absolutely. I knew you were telling the truth earlier. Absolute gratitude. Yeah, thank you. And the second one would be, how can I be part of helping

to make sure that people have more opportunities? Yeah. I mean, I bet you know the answer, which is be your very best. Absolutely. Open the aperture so that that part of you that has been part of you since you were three and 13 and 23 and that it comes forward, that part of you that has always been there, open the aperture for that to arise. And to me, that's what really a living masterpiece is about is getting to that attunement. So what a fun conversation. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I loved it. Thank you for having me here. Yeah, if there's something that we can, where would you like people to go to invest more or to find out how they can make differences? Where would you want to point people? Absolutely. I would point people to your local area.

Go, if you're a parent and you're concerned about what's going on in your school, your child's school, go to your child's teacher. Be as immersed as you can in the culture of your child's school. Those are where your answers are going to come from. I think a lot of times we waste so much time worried about what allegedly everyone's doing all around the country, all around the world, when the things that are going to change the world for your child and your family are happening in your local school. What a great conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. It's lots of fun. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful

about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only.

If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.