Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Where There is Hope, There is Possibility | Doug Abrams

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Doug Abrams, an author and truth hunter.Doug is committed to helping catalyze the next evolutionary stage of our global culture – and he’s worked with some incredible human beings along the way.He co-wrote The Book of Joy with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, he’s worked with Stephen Hawking on his last book, the global bestseller Brief Answers to the Big Questions, and has had the privilege of working with other Nobel Laureates including Nelson Mandela, Jody Williams, and Elizabeth Blackburn.  Doug is also devoted to spreading the importance of conservation and fighting climate change.He co-wrote his newest book, The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times, with Jane Goodall. In this urgent book they explore, through intimate and thought-provoking dialogue, one of the most sought after and least understood elements of human nature: hope. What we hope that you take from this conversation is a recalibration - to reconnect with that part inside of you that sees the good, hopes for a better future, and works towards it every day._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that level of mastery that we have over our own mind. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. I love what I do. I love that we get to celebrate some of the most extraordinary people across the planet on this podcast. Literally, what we're going to do is we're going to pull back the curtain to explore how the extraordinaries have committed to mastering both their craft and their minds. As you would recognize, your mind plays a significant role in the quality of your life. If you want to learn more about how you can train your mind and optimize your mind, this

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That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

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and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay, let's get into this week's conversation with Doug Abrams, an author and a truth hunter. Doug is committed to helping catalyze the next

evolutionary stage of our global culture. How cool is that for a purpose in life? He's worked with some of the most incredible human beings along the way. He co-wrote the book of joy with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. He's worked with Stephen Hawking on his last book, The Global Bestseller, Brief Answers to Big Questions. If you haven't had the chance to check out either of those, I highly recommend them. And he's had the privilege of working with other Nobel laureates, including Nelson Mandela, Jody Williams, and Elizabeth Blackburn. How about it, Doug? Nice job. He worked with Christina Fugueras, the former UN Secretary on Climate, who led the Paris Climate Agreement on The Future We Choose,

Ending the Climate Crisis, and with plant ecologist Suzanne Simard on Finding the Mother Tree, about her work discovering the communication and network intelligence of trees and forests, and how cooperation is as important as survival as competition. He co-wrote his newest book, The Book of Hope, a survival guide for trying times, with the legend Dr. Jane Goodall. In this urgent book, they explore through intimate and thought-provoking dialogue one of the most sought-after and least understood elements of human nature, hope. What I hope that you take from this message is that you recalibrate to that part within you that is able to see the good. Because there's a lot of information about what is not good, what is not working well.

And I hope that you find that space in your heart in the same way that you're on your front foot in life. And so it's so easy to get blown back. But this idea of being front-footed, this idea of being grounded wherever you go, where you have a sense of agency and power within yourself to choose the way that you want to explore your life, the way you want to live. That is my hope for you. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Doug Abrams. Doug, how are you?

Great to be with you, Michael. Oh, it's so good. You know what I appreciate about this podcast, about the structure in general, is that I get to reconnect with folks I haven't seen for a while. And I'm so stoked to spend some time with you because last we connected pre-pandemic, you've been doing some stuff. Well, I've been on a few adventures and it's just great to be back with you oh it's so good so i wanted to start with your new book and um i mean what a legend you know jane goodall dr jane goodall and i wonder if i could just throw this the byline of your book out as a starting place is that cool sure okay so byline, the title of the book is about hope, right? The book on hope.

And here's the byline. Looking at the headlines, the worsening climate crisis, a global pandemic, loss of biodiversity, political upheaval, it can be hard to feel optimistic. And yet hope has never been more desperately needed. So that's why I wanted to have you on, is for so many reasons. Not only did you write a book with a legend about hope, but you've designed your life in a way that I think many people would say is pretty cool. So can you just respond to that byline for just a moment?

Well, I think we're living in despairing times. We're living in times when a lot of people feel like things are going in the wrong direction, whether it's the political polarization or the worsening climate, environmental crises. There's a lot to be upset about. There's a lot to be despairing about. Anxiety and depression are at all-time highs. Obviously, the pandemic has made everything worse. And frankly, we had no idea when we started to explore hope how necessary it was going to be for this moment. And it's been really, really rewarding to have people to talk about it as an antidote to these times and an antidote to the despair that we're feeling. And basically, it's really easy to go from denial to despair. And, you know, hope is what's between denial and despair. Hope is that thing that you know the reality of

what is, but you're actually taking action and moving forward in a constructive way and not falling into either denial or despair. So why Dr. Jane Goodall? Well, so I had done the Book of Joy with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, which was the first in the Global Icons series. And it was clear that- Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Did you just name drop? That's kind of the best name drop in the world. It's kind of like, dude, you know, it's kind of like you know it's so good and i think when we last connected by the way both books are fantastic so i'm hoping right now that folks in the community are going wow and pressing pause right now and ordering both of the books

and then coming right back to the conversation, because there's some good stuff about to happen here. But last we connected, that was not on your radar. So before we get into like Jane and answering the question, why Jane, how did that come to be with, you know, two titans of wisdom? Well, so if you want the the whole story uh it all has to do with the power of making a list um and believing that you and i guess it's about hope it's about recognizing you know there's there's something in the hope uh science where they talk about us being fear

hope creatures like we're either in fear, which is in the ancient more reptilian centers and emotional centers of our brain, or we're in a hope, which is in our most evolved prefrontal cortex. And so basically I was working in publishing and I decided I had made enough money for Rupert Murdoch at HarperCollins. And I wanted to set up an agency working with visionaries who are creating a wiser,

healthier, more just world. And I made a list of the 20 or so people I most wanted to work with in the world. The first person on that list was Desmond Tutu. The Dalai Lama was on that list. Jane Goodall was on that list. Stephen Hawking was the last, you know, name on that list. And I basically gotten to work with all of those people. And it has been an incredible privilege. And I mean, we can talk about, you know, what I've learned along the way in terms of not just the power of making lists, but taking those risks or following through on that hope. But in terms of the project with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, I had been working actually with Archbishop Desmond Tutu for a number of years

when I was at a birthday party for Archbishop Tutu. And I was there with the head of the Dalai Lama Foundation, head of the Dalai Lama Foundation said, what do you think about these two guys doing a book together? I said, wow, that would be amazing. What would it be about? And we just paused for a moment. We looked at each other. We said, joy. Here were like the two most joyful people on the planet. And if anybody could teach us about joy, it was these two guys. So I said to Archbishop Tutte, I said, hey, Arch, you want to do a book with the Dalai Lama?

And he turned back to me and he said, I'd do anything with that man. And so he wrote a letter to the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama later told me when I met him in D.C., he said, you know, when I got the letter, I got a little excited. You know, so if you're letter, I got a little excited, you know, so if you're, you're making the Dalai Lama excited, you're doing something. And so we had to, obviously, it's very hard for getting these global leaders to get to play together. And, you know, they just don't get a lot of time to hang out with their buddies and have a beer, but the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu are like famous friends. They're just love each other. And they were so excited to spend this week together.

And we went to Dharamsala, India, spent a week together with them and recorded their conversations about joy. And so that's what became the Book of Joy. And also there's a film that's coming out shortly called Mission Joy, which is also lets people be a kind of fly on the wall in those conversations and be on that life-changing road trip to Dharamsala. And so for the next life-changing road trip, we were like, okay, where are we going to go next? I'd always been a huge fan of Jane's. And one of the things that I admire most about Jane is she's this incredible scientist who spent all of these years studying chimpanzees, but really studying chimpanzees to understand our ancestors and understand human nature. And I thought if anybody can teach us about who we really are and what is our fundamental nature? It's Jane. And so, and frankly, I was really personally just wanted to understand, is there hope for us as a species?

You know, we seem to make so many stupid decisions and tear ourselves apart. And our vices seem to outweigh our virtues so much of the time. The question was, you know, where does she get hope and where is there hope for us? So I think in this conversation, we're going to weave in between the subjects and your partners in these books, as well as your best practices, as well as the insights that you've come to learn and they've come to learn. And what I appreciate in the book of hope is you did some research around hope and you created a container, if you will, or space is probably better thinking about Dr. Goodall, but you created a space for her to share her insights on it through stories. And so can we start with a few things before we go to the list making?

Can we start with after doing the book and research and speaking with her, how are you defining or clarifying the concept of hope? Because it's not one that is easily defined. It's a psychological principle and there's good research on it. I wouldn't say great, but there's good research on it. Enough to do some meta-analyses. But then, can you just kind of grok with a simple definition of how you're conceptualizing hope? Sure. And as the psychologist on the call here, I look forward to hearing your sense of the science. But what I, what hope fundamentally is the belief that the future can be better than the present. And one of the things that was fascinating in looking at the field of, and let me just say,

just to be really candid and honest, I was really skeptical about hope. I really, you know, I'm a New Yorker. We don't really do hope. We do cynicism, outrage. Sarcasm. You know, hope felt really Pollyanna, like, you know, let's hope for the best. And what was fascinating was to understand what the scientists said about hope and what Jane said about hope. And we can talk about both. What I think I came to see

through Jane's eyes is that hope is a fundamental human survival trait. It's actually how we get up in the morning. It's how we accomplish anything in our life. And without it, we fall into despair, depression. It, you know, basically, we and our families and our communities fail. And so hope is this fundamental, hard to, as you said, kind of distill in the test tube quality of human nature. But it was fascinating to find from the science that it probably originates in our prefrontal cortex, in our middle prefrontal cortex, where we have language, where we have what's called time travel of the mind, whether we have problem solving, it's this really central part of our capacity to imagine the future and to strive for something better and different

than what we have. Nice job. And so here's where it gets a little messy when we're using words like hope and optimism. Sure. Because the overlap between the two is significant. Yeah. And so you guys addressed it in the book in a very acceptable, like, oh, that makes sense, the way you've conceptualized it. But then can you just share, for folks who haven't read it yet, how you were thinking about optimism relative to hope?

So I was actually much more familiar with optimism than hope and pessimism. And optimism is fundamentally a life philosophy or disposition, right? Like it's either I'm an optimistic person, I'm a pessimistic person. Like I kind of, and it's not really understood well, whether the philosophy leads to the disposition or the disposition leads to the philosophy, you know, how much of his nature, how much of its nurture. But optimism is fundamentally an approach toward life that says, if you're optimistic, like things are going to work out for the best, it's going to be fine. And, you know, what, what was interesting to learn about

hope is that it's not a foregone conclusion. It's not a, oh, it's all going to work out for the best. It's a belief that you can improve things and make them better than they are, and that you have to actually get active and make it happen, and that there is going to be adversity and challenge. That was really interesting to see that in the literature, hopeful people are not people who say, oh, it's all going to work out for the best. There are people who say, I hope I can make this thing happen. I hope I can accomplish this goal. I know there are going to be obstacles in my way, but I'm going to do my best to realize it. And it was interesting if we can stay on the topic for a second of,

you know, kind of what is hope scientifically, you know, the, the, the field that studies hope identifies kind of four fundamental qualities of hope of of what sustains hope, almost like four pillars of hope, if you will. The first is to have realistic goals, right? What makes a realistic goal? Working with the Dalai Lama in Desmond Tude probably wasn't a very realistic goal, but it was a goal. It was at the time. So even bold goals, going to the moon can be a realistic goal, even if it's a really bold goal. But then you also have to have realistic pathways. You have to have a way to get there. And then you have to have a sense of agency, a sense that you can get there, confidence in yourself. And that doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion that you can get there, but at least you have a sense of agency and belief that there's a chance that you could make it happen.

And then fourth and often left out is social support. And this is really fascinating. I hope we'll talk some about this because one of the most profound things I heard was this idea that hope is often a social gift. It's something that we give to one another and kind of hope and despair are these things that are almost like viruses. They either they spread, they're contagious. we give to other people, even in their times of challenge and despair, it's really fundamental to their well-being and their ability to have hope in their life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20 off what i love that you're doing is that you are saying listen there's actions you can take to build hope and you to build optimism and they work together and the science is pretty remarkable and where people get skittish about both is like false hope is dangerous naive optimism is dangerous um nichi has a classic line that like i don't know exactly how he phrased it but it was like it's it's one of the great evils because it just prolongs the inevitable you know like you know that's but a pessimist would say that about hope, right? A fatalist. Right.

You know, so, but, you know, I appreciate that you tackled this because whenever I am doing work with an organization and we get to, I don't talk about hope. I talk about optimism in my work. And they can collapse on each other really quickly, which I really appreciate. And then it does give space to expand on both. But I start with optimism because of some of the science that I find compelling there. All that being said is I know when I walk into a room about 70% are going, oh God, here we go.

We're going to talk about being positive. We're going to talk about being, you know, and so it's got to get grounded really quickly because it's, it is much easier to be a cynic, sarcastic, fatalist, you know, pessimist. It's much easier to do that because our brain is actually better skilled at finding danger and threat and things that could go wrong than finding what could be amazing. And so it requires, sorry, last thing, it just requires a level of vulnerability and courage in that to stay in that vulnerable state. And the only reason we can stay in that

vulnerable state of hope or optimism is when we believe that we have the agency to figure shit out. Like, listen, what else am i going to do because this feels like the right thing but i can hold that space because i'm gonna figure out to my best abilities when it doesn't go according to plan or when it does and i think we need to start with agency we need to start with a sense of people knowing their esteem, their value, their efficacy, their agency, so that they can stand in a space of hope. Anyways, I pause there because I know I stepped on one of your insights. No, I think it was really, you said it so well.

And it was exactly something that I was just to jazz with you. I think that, that cynicism is way more comfortable than hope. Honestly, I think there's a way in which kind of assuming that nothing's going to work out, you never get disappointed. But ultimately you're never going to be able to realize anything of great aspiration in your own life or collectively when we fall into that. And I think there's a way in which that's part of the danger of our times is that we are, we're not dreaming big.

We're so in fear and threat that we're not recognizing that we live in one of the most, you know, fundamental, pivotal moments in human history. And we have to dream really big to solve the challenges that we face around climate and the environment. And, but, you know, we kind of have almost, we think we're so almost, we think so little of ourselves that we're kind of accepted defeat before we've even tried. You know, I think when I think about my life in that frame is that, let's just talk about big government for a moment in the United States, but this is probably true for wherever somebody is listening is that government are those people over there. And it's these,

um, semi corrupt, you know, um, they probably started off benevolent, but like that system is so big and wielding and it's them over there. What am I going to do? And then you think about biodiversity and you think about where our planet's heading, the health of our planet.

It's like, what am I going to do? So it's really easy with these very complicated, networked, enmeshed systems to not feel like you have a significant thread in that fabric. And so that's why one of the reasons I love the book is because Dr. Goodall is like, she's very clear. She's so grounded in living in alignment with hope. It was so strong and refreshing. And she doesn't feel Pollyannish. And I wonder if you could just speak to what you felt in the room with her when you were trying your best to understand her orientation. Well, I'd say one of the most amazing things that I discovered with Jane is that she has a seeker's willingness ask like the biggest questions of life and death and, you know, good and evil. And at the same time, you know, really stay close to the facts that

she knew. And then she also had kind of a poet's, you know, desire to get it right. You know, like we argued over, you know, whether hope was a survival, you know, survival skill or survival trait, you know? And she was like, you know, and I mean, I know in 20 minutes, we were, you know, like tool, it's not tool, no. And I just loved that incredible ability to kind of wrestle with somebody who has spent a lifetime so deeply immersed in the natural world and in the facts, but who's really willing to not just stay fixated on the kind of details or the research facts alone, but to say, what does this really tell us about us? One of the things I appreciated that she shared about her life adventure,

which I did not know was that her first gig, she didn't have her advanced studies. She didn't have a PhD. She showed up without a bachelor's degree in like the bush or wherever she was like studying. I mean, talk about in a time when women scientists were the percentage of women to male scientists was like probably nascent, you know, like it was a different era, which thank God she's a trailblazer. And like, that is amazing. I had that narrative in my head completely wrong. I thought this trailblazing, esteemed, intelligent, naturalistic scientist was in the jungle breaking

ground. Meanwhile, come to find out, she was like scrappy and smart and she was like unbiased. And this is one of the things that led to her great breakthroughs. Yeah, it was amazing to hear. I mean, talk about hope and have following your dreams. I mean, she wanted to go study animals in the wild. And as she said, she wanted to do that at a time when even men weren't doing that. That was a cool line. Who was it? Leachie? Who was the supervisor? Leachie. That says when he dropped him off and he was like, I'm not sure I'll ever see them alive again. Yeah. Yeah. So that was actually one of the people at the museum that she

was working on. So Louis Leachie, who was her, you know, she went to work for him as a secretary, basically. And, and then he wanted somebody who would be unbiased and wouldn't have preconceptions to go into the wild and be able to spend time with the chimpanzees with the express purpose of trying to understand our shared ancestors and where do we come from? And therefore, what do we know about a human nature? That's immaterial important because at that time, and I don't know the answer to this. And so maybe she shared it with you offhandedly, but there was a gap between the primates and the wise humans, homo sapiens, right? Like there was a gap

in there that was unexplainable. And has that been solved? And I know she made some breakthrough, you know, stuff where it forced us to reimagine how we can subclergize humans and primates. And you can maybe tell that story too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think at the time, you know, we even more so than today felt like we are homo sapiens. We are the wise man. And then there's all the rest of the animals of the animal kingdom. And we're totally different from them. You know, we have emotions, we have reason, we have intellect. They don't have any of that. And you know, they don't have personalities. And, you know, she said, you know, they don't have personalities. And, you know, she said, you know, having had a dog growing up say and see that, wow, these chimpanzees,

these animals that she was studying have not the same capacities and the same qualities as humans exactly, but are on a spectrum. And one of her great discoveries was that chimpanzees use tools. And at the time, we thought that humans were the only animales use tools. And at the time we thought that humans were the only animal to use tools. And that was one of the things that separated us. Our ability to use language was what separated us. And so obviously, I mean, it's fascinating.

I asked her, do animals have hope? And she said, well, if you think about your dog waiting for you to come home at the end of the day, there's a kind of nascent quality of hope in that that you can see, right? Your dog is hoping, you know, you're going to come home, you're going to pet it, take it for a walk, feed it. that's distinct is that that hope has the ability to be hoping about the distant future and about our dreams and our lives for our organizations for our world and in her understanding of that she it sounds we're familiar with the idea about that they use they make tools like the for the termites and you know fishing like fishing termites. Like most people are familiar with that, but she broke ground there. And so she was the one who discovered that.

Exactly. That's right. Yeah. So is there, is the gap clear between primate and homo sapiens, or is there still leaps of faith that we're making about how that evolution has taken place? I don't know the answer there. I think it's pretty well documented how we broke off, you know, from our other primate ancestors, the other apes. And Jane had a fascinating theory about why that happened. She felt like a lot of that had to do with language, actually, and actually losing our hair, which was fascinating, you know, because our babies couldn't cling to us when we didn't have hair. So we had to develop this capacity to communicate with our babies and communicate danger to them. So that was really fascinating. But I mean, that's like the amazing thing about being

with Jane and working with Jane is, you know, her, she's really, she's willing to explore wherever the facts might lead. Last thing before you get to how she was dropped off and said, I hope I see you. I hope you make it. Yeah, before we get back to that, but what did you learn from her just broad strokes? Well, wow. That's a, that's a big question. Um, you know, so, I mean, there are so many things that we can talk about. I learned her for reasons for hope right now that we can talk about. Um, I think, I think I also learned about her, um, the fact that we have faced such Yeah, let's do that. as Archbishop Tutu would say, and that we don't have to struggle. And that the struggling that we're doing, whether that's our own individual struggling in our lives and the importance of that in some ways suffering is inevitable to our experience. But then collectively, you know, whether it's a pandemic, whether it's an environmental crisis,

you know, we have faced and overcome enormous challenges. I mean, she talked about growing up in World War II with, you know, Nazi Germany, you know, kind of basically at her door with these, you know, metal scaffoldings on the, you know, on the shores of Britain and the Nazi U-boats, you know, about to invade at any time. And the ways in which, you know, it was the imagination, it was that sense of hope and possibility of, frankly, Churchill's speeches, telling, you know, rallying the spirit, the indomitable spirit of the British people to resist the onslaught of that autocracy and that, you know, that villainous regime. And so, I mean, we have faced dark times and we are facing really challenging times in many ways, very dark in their own way. But, you know, it's really about our, in some ways, our faith and our hope, and maybe even better than faith, our hope in our own capacity to rise to those challenges that's so essential. To come back to the story that you were asking about. So she was actually on archaeological digs with Louis Leakey. And when

he observed her ability to navigate the wild and her patience and her ability to to do the dig and with the kind of care and insight that she was able to even though at the time she was basically trained just as a secretary and didn't have any kind of scientific training and he told her that he wanted her to go and do this experiment, to do this observation in the wild. And at the time, they wouldn't let a white British woman go into the forest, the jungle, unsupervised. So amazing part of this story. And talk about the social nature of hope, her mother agreed to go into the forest with her and to accompany her and, you know, quote unquote, chaperone her, you know, to, and went in with her.

And so when her mother and she were being dropped off by one of the curators of the museum, he said that when he dropped them off, he never thought he would see them again. And then her response was, yeah, I was more focused on the task though. Like I wasn't overwhelmed by the dangers. I was more mission minded. Exactly.

I think she's got this incredible ability to have clarity of her mission, to follow this curious path. And then her backstop, I love the two ways she described hope as a stubborn determination to make something work. And really, some call that grit. And you could float that into the grit science pretty easily, but it's got a different feel when you talk about that's what hope is. And then I love how she also said, hope is being able to see the light. I think she said this, or maybe it was somebody else that you said in the book, but hope is being able to see the light in spite of all the darkness. Was that her original thought or was that somebody else's?

I think that is something that she communicated. And I think I was also maybe talking about this amazing Auschwitz survivor named Edith Eger and her experience of being able to survive the death camps and her seeing, being able to find hope in the death camps. And she told this incredible story about this woman who believed that they were going to be liberated by Christmas. And she was totally emaciated and sick. And Edie didn't know how she was possibly surviving another day. And she just kept going day by day. And when she asked her, it was because she believed that they were going to be liberated. And when Christmas came and they were not liberated, she died on that day. And it was just this incredible example of how our hope is at the basis of our will to live and our capacity to survive. And as you said, grit and resilience. I think this quality of

Jane's ability to stay focused on the task at hand and the challenges that she was up against, it comes back to this hope, fear creatures, right? You're either in fear and you're focused on all the things that could go wrong and the challenges, or you're in hope and you're focused on what you might be able to accomplish. And you may have, remember in the book, we talked about the hope scientists talking about three ways of thinking about the future. There's fantasizing, which is my delusion that some day I will play for an NBA team, you know, which is just a fantasy,

never going to happen because it has no connection to reality or eye-hand coordination or anything else. Or you can be dwelling. And dwelling, that's, I think, what I grew up doing a lot in New York, is all the things that could go wrong, or hoping. And when you're hoping, you're not fantasizing, it's not disconnected from reality, it's not dwelling on the dangers or the problems that could happen. It's hoping and recognizing the obstacles that are inevitable and thinking about and taking action. And I think that's another part of hope that's really powerful and what can, at least in the hope science can make it not the Pollyanna wishful thinking or

fantasizing or false hope, which is actually thinking, how do I take action and do something to make that those goals and find those realistic pathways. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

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day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Yeah. So it's really clear when you think about them because one is la la land, one is anxiety

provoking. And the other one requires again, to hold a container that I'm going to dare to dream. I'm going to dare to think about the future in the most beautiful way. And I'm actually going to put a little bit of skin in the game because I might just, if I do that, then I'm at some level accountable to that image that it takes it it takes a certain amount of well one let's just say it takes the luxury of being able to have the space to not think about providing you know in a desperate way so there's a luxury to to to have the space to not be so overridden by basic needs that you can have, again, time as a luxury. Now, all that being said, and I don't want to sound insensitive when I say it, is that even when we are having the most dire of external circumstances, it does not mean that we lack the ability for hope. It just means that in many

respects, if I put myself in that situation, it would be harder. And so, but still, this is three ways that we can use our mind to think about the future is the main point there. And how do you address false hope and hopelessness? They're different, but how did you get your arms around those two? Well, so I mean, also you were just bringing me back to Edie Eager in the concentration camp. And this question about hopelessness and the ability to have hope even in the most hopeless of circumstances. And so she also tells a story about how she was literally left in a pile of rotting bodies to die when her sister, who was also in the camp with her, used this kind of tin of like this tuna tin, basically, that she had to, because they couldn't really move, to catch the light from the sun and attract the attention of one of the US, you know, the GIs who were liberating the camps to tell them that they were alive. And so that act was an act of hope. That was an act of survival that was, you know, in the most

dire of circumstances when they're literally at death's door that they are going to survive. And she talked about how the, the GI put M&Ms in her hand, uh, and, um, put them up to her mouth so that she could live. Um, and I think that they, to come back to this question of false hope, I think that it's really, um, this is like one person's false hope is another person's difficulty, right. Um, and challenge, right. So my grandfather was a amputee, lost his leg in a, in a trolley accident, uh, who became a neurosurgeon who operated on Babe Ruth and, um, separated, um, some of the first conjoined twins. And his favorite motto was the difficult is hard, impossible, just a little harder. And I mean, it's that sense of like, well, you know, is it, is it, you know, that false hope, you know, is so easy for us to, to, it's really cynicism in disguise,

right? It's like, you know, it's never going to happen for, I mean, if I had thought realistically, like if I had thought I'm going to, I'm a book editor and I'm going to go write a book with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, you could have said that's a false hope, you know, like that's crazy. Um, or, or work on a book with Jane Goodall. Um, and, and so I think that the, you know, where false hope often rears its head a lot is in medicine and in health. And, you know, people are told not to have false hope, um, or they're not, they don't want to be given false hope. And during the writing of this book, my dad got diagnosed with cancer and with T-cell lymphoma. And I had to come back from working with Jane in Tanzania and fly back and be with him and what he called companion him on his long journey to death.

And it was, I mean, one of the most intense, painful, beautiful experiences in my life to be there with him and literally be able to hold his hand as he died. And there was a moment after we had done all the tests where it was clear that the path of treatment was going to just prolong things very minimally and compromise his quality of life and that it wasn't worthwhile. And he made, he said, I guess it's time for us to accept the inevitable and made the decision that he was going to try to die with dignity and not try to prolong it. And so I think there is a, certainly a place

for accepting the facts and not pretending that anything is different than it is. And at the same time, I think what hope allows us to do is to realize that even in the suffering, even in the pain, even in the challenge that is life, there is incredible possibility. And even in that experience of his dying, it was one of the most extraordinary experiences of his life. You know, he talked about how that part of his illness and death was all part of his curriculum. It was all part of his learning and his ability to experience life fully. The curriculum idea is something that it's so grounded that your dad, he accepted that there was parts of the curriculum that were going to be hard and parts of the curriculum that were going to be joyful and parts of the curriculum that were going to be easy but there was a curriculum to life and he was going to live the curriculum

to its fullest it it's quite amazing well 10 years before he uh ultimately, he fell down a flight of stairs and he was unconscious for a month. He was delirious and unconscious. I never thought I would actually, he was coming back. And I can still remember the first phone call when he came around and called me. And it was like literally like, you know, him coming back from the grave and being on the other end of the telephone. And my brother had, when he came around, said to him, I'm so sorry you've had to have this terrible thing happen. And that's when he said, no, no, not at all. This is all part of my curriculum.

And that was that that ability and I you know it echoes something that I learned from Archbishop Tutu which was so powerful which is that you know suffering can either in in bitter us or in noble us it can either make us feel like life is meaningless and just filled with pain and suffering, or it can ennoble us and allow us to grow and develop our capacities, our empathy, our compassion, our generosity. And I said, so what's the difference? What determines whether suffering embitters us or ennobles us? And he said, well, if we take our suffering and make meaning out of our suffering and use it to help others, then it ennobles us. The former gets met when we blame. Yeah. And it's a way to not feel the pain because it's their fault. It creates a, um, uh, a smallness to the way that you interface with the world.

And so it's more of a victim approach as opposed to more of an agent approach. And so the latter is related to purpose and meaning. And obviously would give rise to hope and making a difference. And I say that there's something remarkably contagious about hope, about purpose, about optimism and cynicism and pessimism that too is contagious. And so like, if we just pause here for a minute to talk about how you structure, like, what was it like growing up? How did you, how did you end up as an adult structure in your life? But what were the conditions early on that promoted that construction? I guess what I would say is I grew up in a really fortunate and privileged environment where the life of the mind and the life is an exploration and a journey was really encouraged.

And I also grew up with a mom who suffered from depression. And I think I was really struck by that pain early. And seeing that I think anybody who's had a depressed parent, or parent who struggles with mental health challenges, you kind of see how much suffering can happen within one's own skull. And and so when I was in the second grade living in New York City and on our in our apartment on the 20th floor, I was one leg over the balcony deciding whether I wanted to live. And I realized in retrospect that that experience helped me to see that I had to choose because actually my mom saw me from the, from the window, but she couldn't get to me. And I had to, as I was looking down at the little matchbox cars below, and the little tiny people below, I had decided, you know, am I going to stick around or not?

And I think that has given me the desire throughout my life to find, to give people choice, to give people freedom to choose whether you're wiser, healthier, more just ways to live, to be able to choose individually how we're going to live our lives and for us to collectively choose how we're going to create this world. And that's, I think, you know, part of, you know, that early experience and that pain that I had and we all have in our own ways actually was fuel. It was fantastic. I could never do what I'm doing now if I hadn't experienced that at that young age.

I just wouldn't be motivated the same way. I want to make sure I heard it right. You said second grade? Yeah. So you're nine or ten years old? Actually, seven. Seven? Yeah.

Jeez, dude. There's an insight about until you say no, can you fully say yes? Yes, yeah. And it sounds like you said no to suicide. So you fully said yes to life. And I'm not suggesting somebody needs to get to that place because that, that, that insight also shows up in relationships before you can say no to certain conditions where you say yes to the ones that you want.

Fill in the blanks for other analogies, you know's parallel paths but like geez okay well i think that um what i experienced then and i think in in our own ways we we experience eventually is that we get to choose you you know, like it's, you know, we're either living in victim and life is happening to us or we're at least co-creating it. And we're realizing like, okay, there's a given or what my dad on his deathbed called the Chivin, the, what you, what you choose in from what you've been given, you know? And there is that, that sense of, you know, there, there are external circumstances and conditions and contexts that we don't control. And then we choose within those contexts. And one of the most powerful stories that Jane told me and was of this Native American reservation that she was doing her environmental

work on, or that they were setting up a Roots and Shoots, one of the groups for young people that she has to help teach young people about the environment. And this community was like the suicide capital of America. And like the guy who came to her asking for her to work in his community had lost his son to suicide. And like half of his classmates were gone. And there was like a 50% unemployment rate on this reservation. I mean, obviously, the conditions of poverty and substance abuse and despair on Native American reservations in our country are some of the most appalling and shocking that we allow this, you know, that this is

something we tolerate and accept. But one of the things that I got from that, from hearing those stories was just how that hope is that there's a kind of communal hope. And one of the researchers and that we are all impacted by. so, you know, as you were saying that, you know, we were talking about how hope is contagious. It's like, we're born into a community that either is more or less hopeful. And then our own hope contributes to the hope of that community. And one of the really interesting scientific studies was just talking, was finding how the measure of communal hope was fundamental for the well-being of the community. And how it's, you know, so it's obviously the economic factors play a huge role in how

hopeful people feel. But it's incredible that sense, hope is actually almost this measure of how well the human spirit is doing. So, okay. If you were to score yourself a level of hope, where do you, what do you give yourself as a score? Score. Wow. That's a great question. Wait, am I good days? My bad days? We'll do a range in the middle. Well, I think that, you know, I will say that I have a high amplitude, you know, I, I think throughout my life, I would go really high and also go pretty low. But I think that doing this work with the Dalai Lama Desmet Tutu and the book with Jane, and maybe it's just getting older as well.

It's stabilized 7.8 to 8.9, you know, somewhere in there. And I think that, you know, it's, it's this question of like, what are our hope practices? What are our joy practices? You know, so it's almost like we think about it as, you know, I'll wake up one morning and I'll be really just low. And, you know, I'll wake up one morning and I'll be really just low. And, you know, maybe I'm thinking about something that's really, you know, a family member that's not well or something that's really upsetting me. And then, you know, what do I do with my mind? Right. I mean, this is obviously what you focus your work on. And come on, let's let's get into it.

Like, what are some practices yeah you know so the it's this question of like the mastery over one's own mind and i think that you know in some ways it's about um so we're working with this incredible uh pair of authors who do the harvard adult development study on a book called the good life. And some of the things they talk about what creates the good life, you know, they talk about three things that I thought was really fascinating. You know, one is what you do each day, what do you do each week? What do you do over the course of your life? And what you do each day is about where you put your attention, right?

That's the mind training. That's the, okay, am I going to focus on all of the things that I'm pissed off about or that are bumming me out? Or am I going to accept the pain of that to deal with the fear, anger, and sadness and do the work to feel those feelings, not just numb them out. Because that was one of the things I learned from the book of joy is like, you can't have joy without sorrow. So doing the emotional work to like, you know, recognize those things, not ignore them because, you know, it's, it's then it's just whack-a-mole and they just pop up somewhere else.

And then, but then to be intentional about where you put your mind and where you focus your attention and what you can do or what you can't do. Um, so that's the attention piece. Um, the, what you do weekly, uh, according to this really fascinating body of research, is about relationships. It's about social relationships. It's like, do you prioritize your relationships, your social fitness? This is like a fascinating term that they talk about is your social fitness. And it's like, what they found in the longest study of human health and happiness this harvard adult development is that it fundamentally our satisfaction our life comes down to our our well our social relationships they discovered that your the quality of your relationships at our age in your 50s uh determines how long you live in your 80s. And so, you know, that prioritizing, focusing on our

relationships and choosing that from week to week is crucial. And then the third piece of the practices that they talk about are what we do from year to year. And that's about meaning and purpose. That's about going after those long-term goals. And fundamentally, it's also about relationship. It's about where can we contribute? Where can we make a difference that those that struggle with purpose in life die earlier and um that research is fascinating so that that yeah i love them i love the model is really good and then if you drill all the way down what are you doing um on a day-to-day basis on the mind training for enhancing your ability for hope and joy and whatever other virtues or values in action that you're aspiring to live more aligned to. And just to jazz with you there, I think that, you know, we often think that it's all about mindfulness, or it's all about meditation. And obviously, that's crucial. The meditation practices and the training of the mind are really important.

But in the Book of Joy, one of the things that was really interesting was hearing there eight pillars of joy. You know, that there were these different practices. And it starts with the first pillar is perspective. So it is crucial kind of where you put your attention and where you put your mind. You know, their, their age, just to run through them real quick were perspective, humility, humor, a sense of humor, not taking yourself too seriously. And that was just the best was to see the Dalai Lama and Tutu taking the piss out of each other and laughing and cutting it up like crazy.

And then acceptance that sense of, and so it's really perspective. It's really whether you focus on the heartache and the heartbreak, or you're able to widen that framework and see that heartache and that heartbreak in a wider paradigm and context. Then from that perspective, you come to a place of humility where you're not better or worse than the other billions of people on the planet. You're, and you're struggling along with everybody else. And you have compassion for yourself and for, for their suffering. And then, you know, that sense of humor that leads you to that kind of like, well, if, you know, if we're all in the, in the drink together, let's, you know, that sense of humor that leads you to that kind of like, well, if, you know, we're all in the drink together, let's, you know, not take ourselves too seriously.

And that's the humor. And then from that sense of humor, then you can laugh at yourself and you can accept the reality of what is. You know, you can accept that this, you know, this. And one of the things that was fascinating is they talked about acceptance as the only place from where real change can occur. You've got to accept the reality, the challenges that we're facing in order to make any changes or difference. And then from acceptance, once you accept the reality of what is, then you're able to accept the reality of what was. So you're able to have forgiveness and forgive those people. And as you said, it's no longer that other person's fault or what they did to me. And from forgiveness, when you're able to forgive and give up the hope of a different past, then you're able to step into gratitude and to be incredibly grateful for the

abundance that we do have. And from that abundance and that gratitude, you naturally have compassion for those who don't have as much as we have. Um, or you have a sense of generosity and generosity spirit that you move into, um, which is what I think you see with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu and in her own way, Jane is this sense of, um, you know, this kind of generosity of spirit of assuming the best in people and really seeing that adventure of life as a path of growing and learning. I was in a small little event. It was probably about 25 people where the Dalai Lama was speaking, and then he was going to go speak to a larger

congregation of a couple thousand. And there was two really remarkable moments. One was I was with a professional surfer, and he asked if the Dalai Lama wanted to go surfing with him. I mean, come on, you know? And the Dalai Lama leaned over to his, I forgot his name, but he helps with translations. Translator, yeah.

Yeah. And he leans over and his eyes light up and he goes, no, there's sharks in the ocean. And the whole room kind of erupts. And then the surfer was relentless and says, no, I'm serious. Like, I will take you where there's no sharks. And then back to the translation, his eyes light up again. He goes, no, I'm telling you, there's sharks in the ocean.

Like, I don't want. And it was just like, he was just, like you say, taking a piss. He was just having a good time with it and having fun. And that joy, almost on demand, it's like instantly available and the playfulness. And then can flip into deep introspection and compassion and care and almost like a grief for others, like the tragedy of life. It was remarkable how available and artistically he could float into different regions of being a full human. And so that was one. And then the second was, and this is heavier, is it was the year that bin Laden was killed

by or captured and killed by the US Special Forces. And somebody asked about that, like, what do you think about folks from the United States of America celebrating in the streets that bin Laden has died or dead? And he just paused and he says, you know, I feel bad because they've lost a teacher. And I was like, what? He says, yeah. Like, what's he doing? And he says, yeah, like he showed us evil. And when we celebrate the loss of that person, we also lose something. I was like, wait. And he goes, yeah, I'm not.

And he was very clear. He's like, I'm not suggesting that he needs to act the way he acted. That's not the point. The point was when we celebrate death and when we celebrate murder, we're losing something, both in a teacher and an opportunity to really get to the deeper part of it. So it was a remarkable bit of time that I got to spend. And I can't imagine spending the time you did. I was just going to say one of the things that story makes me think of is I asked Jane, are we 51% good or 51% evil? And she said something that just blew my mind. She said, I think we're split down the middle. And what determines which direction we go is our environment. And what suddenly happened for me was all of this dichotomy between vice and virtue and, you know, what's good in us and what's evil in us suddenly fell into an evolutionary framework

of saying, oh yeah, all those things that we think are so destructive in human nature, our selfishness, our greed, our aggression, are actually things that evolve to help us in certain environments. And so ultimately what determines which direction we go as individuals has so much to do, obviously there's will and agency as well, but in our context and what we need to survive and thrive in our context. And that was just such a fascinating reframe of seeing it. And I think with villainous people and criminals or terrorists, we often wanna put all that out there as something other than what's in here inside our heads.

And when we see it, I think what, in some ways what the Dalai Lama was saying there and what Jane was saying is it's all in our mind. It's like what we create on this planet when it comes to human civilization is really just what comes from that level of mastery that we have over our own mind. Yeah, so two thoughts on that, which is so rich, from that level of mastery that we have over our own mind. Yeah. So two thoughts on that, which is so rich is that, and I'll go bi-directional here, is that the outside world happens, but nothing outside of us changes us. Only what happens inside of us changes us.

So it's not the thing out there. It's the way that we work with the thing. And so change only happens from within. Well, yeah, I would say, you know, I think trauma therapists would probably say that those things do change us, but that how they change us is determined by our response to what happened. And I think that that is, yeah. Change only happens, it only happens inside. And it doesn't mean that there's not forcing functions. Right.

But it only happens from within. And so the within is the unlock. And betting on the external or needing the external to be a certain way, tragedy or beautifully landscaped, it's the ultimate fallacy. Change only happens from within. And so it's so clear what you're saying. And I also would push back a little bit and say the way I think of it is it's, it's, it's a co-creation. You know, like we're working, we've worked with this incredible neuroscientist who studies prejudice and bias named Jennifer Eberhard at Stanford. And she's done this really interesting research on how bias and prejudice live in our brain. And, um, and basically what I think she would, you know, one of the things she comes to the conclusion of

is as long as there is an equity out in the world, you know, where people of different races or backgrounds have fundamentally different economic realities, there's always going to be biased in our brain, you know, because we fundamentally have this, you know, this mechanism in our brain to be biased, to think about, it's actually, I mean, the fascinating here, the Fusey form face recognition, part of our brain, you know, looks at different faces differently. And we do, you know, she, she tells us a wonderful story about going to a largely white school after growing up in a black community. And she was like,

she couldn't tell the white people apart the white kids apart you know because her brain had not developed the capacity to distinguish between those faces and so we have this fundamental architecture in our brain of that is interactive with the world and then what happens in the world deeply impacts that. And what I think you're going, which I agree with, is then the meaning we make out of it, the interpretation we make about what that means. Right. That is profoundly impactful for our experience of the world and who we are. But having done a lot of work in the anti-slavery movement, I can say there are situations that dim the soul, that make it really hard for us to just say, okay, everybody just has agency. But for those of us, most of the people listening to this podcast who do have enormous agency who are not enslaved you know we have that capacity to to make those choices and to change from within and this is i don't want to be insensitive to um death camps as the and slavery as two of the most, um,

atrocious conditions that we could think about for humans, that there is, uh, the, the stories that still hold true to the principle I'm working from is that the, the story you shared about the tin can, the tuna can, and like, yes, it's a great story of hope it's also um her expressing agency yeah even in the worst conditions that have that we're aware of you know the dark ages were pretty bad but the ones that we are familiar with um that um it is within us that in the way we respond and the way that we filter information and the strength of our psychology and the pliability of the way we understand humanness is what allows us to deal and thrive and or suffer. And so, and we're not all created the same.

You know, some of us have preconditions that, and from a genetic standpoint, and some of us are born into circumstances that are easier or harder. Can I ask you a question about that? I mean, so you, you obviously worked with a lot of people with extraordinary psychologies and who are making that decision, right? To deal with what's been the chiven, the choices that they're making from what's been given to them. What do you think makes the difference between the people who transcend those circumstances

and those who don't? Okay, really cool question because I think I want to clarify one maybe assumption that I'm not sure you're making, but maybe somebody might make in a question is that because somebody has broken a world record or changed the way potential is understood through their craft, that they were given much. In fact, I'll tell a story to bring the point home, but I'll finish the sentence. In fact, that might not be the case at all. And so I was in LA, which is where I live, and I saw a legend in basketball that I had known. And I said, hey, man, how you doing? And he said, gosh, I'm doing great. It's been awesome to now be coaching.

And I said, how's your son? And he said, you know, he's doing good. And I said, okay, what do you mean? And he says, you know, he's barely a teenager, and I've given him everything. I've given him the best shoes, the best camps, the best coaches, privates. He's in the best clubs.

You know, he was on the hardwood when he was four years old, shagging balls from legends in the NBA, and, like, I've given him everything to do whatever he wants to do. But I couldn't give him the one thing that I had, which was nothing. Like, I don't know if I made a mistake, but the one thing I had was nothing.

I didn't have shoes. I didn't have camps. I didn't have coaches. But from that nothing, I sprang this deep desire to figure it out. And so I think that that story, and he's welling up as he's telling the story, right? I think that that story captures what I've seen to be true for most people that have done the extraordinary is that they come actually from a place of desperation. And this is, I'm talking about sport, not necessarily some of the leaders that you've, that we're mentioning in this conversation,

but from that deep desperation, they have gotten to, to some truth. And then from that truth, some of them have worked from that place and some of them are still chasing the fool's approach, which is they need bigger cars, bigger watches, bigger social media, whatever, thinking that that is going to be the answer to their purpose. But some have really, in both cases, whether it's from desperation to get to the truth or desperation to just to be recognized, they both go to ridiculous, uncommon, relentless approaches in work. And so they work in ways that are almost nearly unhealthy. And so that's a long preamble to get to this question, to get to your answer, which is, I don't think that there's a common thread that works across them.

And I will say that most of them you would not want to trade your life with. And so this is just a couple insights embedded in as a long response to your question. So interesting. Yeah, I remember you saying that development of mastery at that level often requires such sacrifice and, in some cases, unhealthy sacrifice. And I think that this is why, you know, when we're talking about topics like joy and hope and fundamentally the human capacity to master our own lives and not some kind of extreme mastery of a sport or activity. Exactly. There's a difference. Mastery of craft and mastery of self do not necessarily parallel.

And I'm talking about in that former part of my conversation, I was talking about mastery of craft alone. And I'm not interested in that former part of my conversation, I was talking about mastery of craft alone. Right. And I'm not interested in that. I'm so much more interested in the combination of the two. And Jane clearly demonstrates mastery of craft and self. So does Archbishop Desmond Tutu and so does Dalai Lama. I think you do too. What do you think? Well, I'm still on the path for sure to get to mastery um but um there's still still a lot of the curriculum to come um but i i do um i do think it is one of the amazing things of getting to wrestle with these big these great beings is seeing them them wrestle with that amazing...

I mean, there's got so many stories I could share with you about. But I think one of the things I wanted to make sure that I shared, because given that it's so central to the Book of Hope and to hope for our time, we've spent a lot of time in this conversation talking about hope in our own lives and our own minds. But I think one of the places that people are coming to is the recognition that there are these great challenges that we face. Let's talk about the nation. Let's talk about the four. That's awesome. And I think that, you know, so the question to Jane was really, you know, not only where does she find hope in her own life, but where does she find hope in our world? And whether there's hope for us to face these challenges and where do we turn?

And the four things that she talked about, her four reasons for hope are the amazing human intellect, the resilience of nature, the power of young people, and the indomitable human spirit. And I'm happy to talk about any or all of those if you want. You know, they speak for themselves in such amazing ways. And I think that people can push back on them. And when I first kind of digested her framing of them. I was like, God, it's really good. And then I said, wait a minute. We are a species that torture people. We are a species that selfishly has corrupted mother nature's ability to flourish. Wait, hold on. And then, so then I go through those lenses and I go, the resilience of nature. Yeah, it is remarkable. So I don't think, I don't want to double click on that one. not like nature is the tree and the seed and the ocean and the salt and the compounds. We are nature. And we are incredibly resilient. And so I think that that one's amazing. The amazing human intellect, cool. And it goes one of two ways. We're either going to build machines that are going to run us or, you know, or we're going to build machines that are going to help us and we're going to solve some stuff. So there's an optimism, pessimism lens there. I don't want to double click on that because our intellect is remarkable. We have not though connected our head and our heart properly. So there's a huge gap.

We are one of the few species, primates included, that we have emotions. Elephants have emotions. Dogs have emotions. But we have the ability to make sense of them through communication that is very sophisticated. And we are awful at them, Doug. We are awful, especially us male folk. We are so far behind when it comes to feeling. So let's pause on the human intellect. I think that that's amazing. The human spirit is, I'm clear on that one. And then, but the, the young people, I think I've just grown up always thinking about that, that the youth are the, are the leaders and you know, which it makes so much sense. But when I,

I don't know, man, I think I need the adults in the room to stand up. And I don't, you know, like the adults in the room are pretending like it's the other adults that are the problem. And we're fighting. We're not working in a collaborative way and we need to team. We're not good teammates, this adult race of ours. Can you just talk about, help me through that? Because the young people, yes. Greta Thunberg. Oh my God. You know, like amazing. And, and, and, and. There's lots. But I want to put the responsibility.

I don't have much hope for adults right now. And I struggle with that. Because I walk down to my local market and I see people that are head down, anxious, frustrated. They don't want to make eye contact. They're overwhelmed. They are struggling with kindness and connection and groundedness and hope. And when the pandemic started, I was talking to the CEO of a Fortune 100 company. And I said, what do you think? And she says, well, it's going to reveal one of two things, like this amazing spirit of people to figure things out and to work together, or something quite striking that none of us are

going to be in awe of. It's gone that way, at least in the United States. So can you talk about the challenge I'm having between the hope of the next generation and the hope for adults? Well, I just really appreciate how you're struggling with this so honestly. And frankly, that's what my perspective was to bring to Jane, was the kind of how can you say X given the reality of Y? How can you say, and I think we talked about the amazing human intellect and how that good and evil is actually there, was there to help us and is there to help us. And it's a question of kind of isolated and alone and disconnected and burdened.

And I think, you know, was responsible for kind of the renewable revolution, gave Tesla its first loan. And he said, you know, we have never had a political, a sociological and an environmental crisis all at the same time. And, you know, this is, you know, we are, you know, we're really challenged right now. And I agree with you 100% that we, I mean, I think it's total cop out and say, well, you know, the power of young people is going to save us alone. And that it's really,

you know, we fucked it up, and it's up to them to make it better. That is a betrayal of our children and our grandchildren. We, I think when we recognize that we're not, you know, we didn't inherit the earth from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children, as the famous quote says, then we need to get our shit together and figure out how we can make a difference and get out of our personal pain, right? This is the challenge, right? When we're in our personal pain, it's really hard to focus on the pain of other people. And it's really hard to see the pain that exists in our society and try to deal. But that is exactly the solution, right? The way to get out of our own personal preoccupation is to turn, as Art says, and wipe the tears from the eyes of another. And that actually is the secret of joy. He said it so powerfully he said when you go

beyond your own self-regard you will be surprised by the joy and that is what that is what purpose the science of purpose is really about it's be part of something bigger than your own freaking needs dude whatever that whatever it is like the archbishop said it more eloquently than i just did but that is the that's the idea that sits underneath of it like wiping the tears of another i mean yeah and if you and if you think about it you know and you said earlier how overwhelming the government or the uh or the global problems can seem yeah i mean if we grew up you know we evolved if we grew up as a species with the you know in bands of like 140 um as it seems was the case you know we were our agency our sense of agency was much more clear and direct.

And when we're in these big impersonal bureaucracies, realities, politics, organizations human life on planet Earth comes down to the other things that seem to be stirred up right now. That is what allows us to have that sense of agency and that sense of possibility and contribute. And, you know, it's really, it's all scaled up. It's just like what we do in our family and with our intimate relationships and friends impacts what we do with the community, what we do in our states or nations. And there are some extraordinary things that we are, I think this is where the amazing human intellect is, our ability to come up with problems.

Yeah, we got some bugs in our software, without a doubt. We've got some challenges. And we're not rewriting that software anytime soon, I'm sorry to say. So the question is, can we figure out, or at least the hardware is not going to be changed. So can we, you know, if culture is the software, can we rewrite the software in such a way that we can rise to the challenge of our time? And one of the amazing things in working on this book was the resilience of nature. I mean, what we learned from nature is we is basically nature's resilient because it's adaptable. And we and we are the most adaptable

species that's ever lived on this planet. And 99.9% of all species have gone extinct. So our ability to adapt and change is what's going to determine our capacity for, to meet the challenges of our time. And one of the things that distinguishes an invasive species from a welcome species in an environment is that an invasive species takes more than it gives to the ecosystem. A welcome species gives more than it takes. And so that's the question is, can we learn to be a welcome species on this planet and earn our place and give more to the rest of, to one another and to life than we take? You know who had it right in a lot of ways were the first people. And look what we did.

We came over and said, yeah, we want to buy your land. Like it's not for sale. First people. I'm not even sure we were really paying for it. I'm sure there's so much, I think there's so much to be addressed in terms of Native rights and justice in this country. We have a lot of reckoning and we have a lot of learning to do, as you're saying, from those who, you know, and look, we're all connected to Indigenous peoples. We all go back. We were all Indigenous to some land. We are all part of the earth. And we have, with our extraordinary, amazing intellects, we have created civilizations that have done extraordinary things.

I'm not interested in going back to, you know, no electricity and, you know, no toilets, you know, but the question is, can we create that level of comfort and prosperity in looking to have on even this podcast and in our businesses are partners that are so forward thinking on environment. You know, that like there's one partner we have where you can figure out your footprint and then you can buy the carbon reduction of the exhaust that you're creating. And so they're offsetting those types of companies. Like we must have them at this point. Figuring out how to offset our toxicity is one strategy. And so that I think we're thinking you and I are now talking like kind of global, if you will. And again, this starts to get, for me, it's almost like foggy,

you know, and it's like, I want to come down to like, and I'll just say it right now. Klima is a partner of ours that you can, you can go do some research and, and say, Oh, if I take this many flights, if I have this kind of car, if I drive to work this distance, if I eat meats, then, you know, this is my carbon carbon footprint and then you can buy it down that's great now if you don't have the money to buy it down then you've got to figure out some other solutions if you want to be a good citizen you know and i loved that jane recognized that if we have poverty in our communities we're. Yeah. Because when you're struggling at that level to feed your children, to feed yourself and your children, like you, you,

you're going to buy the cheapest food. You're going to, you're not, you can't think generativity, generativity. You can't think with, is that the right word? Generativity? Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, I don't want to get too lost in the thinking of it and say, I want to just say like, I'm inspired by Jane. She is so inspiring.

I actually want to finish the thought about, it didn't sound right. I don't want to get lost in the thinking. It's the thinking, the perspective to take action and to do action with the eight, the list of eight you talked about was amazing, like with humor, um, with gratitude, with compassion, you know, all of that is so beautifully said. And so I'm going to go back and look at the eight. I'm going to figure out my best plan for the eight. And, um, and then, but I don't want to get off this point before we, and I want to say thank you for your time again, but I want to go back to like, how did you create your list? How did you build your agency?

How did you, and I don't mean agency as your business, which in many respects it is, but how did you go about building the agency within yourself to have the life that you've led to learn from Titans? Well, yeah, I um so appreciate the question and i think it comes back to first of all as you were saying some of that pain that motivates and the drive um so i think really taking that pain or suffering and seeing its value. And, you know, it taught me something. It showed me something. It showed me a need and to embrace it as something that needs, that can benefit me and perhaps others. So that was, I think, the first piece of it. I think

a second piece of it was that boldness, you know, that sense of like, how do I get away from, you know, cynicism, or self doubt, you know, and I mean, damn, I have plenty of self-doubt and had plenty of self-doubt. And, but it's like, what wins the day? Do those self-doubts, which voice, right? You know, our mutual friend, Ethan Cross, you know, is our inner voice an inner critic or is it an inner coach? And do we help transform that inner voice, you know, which he talks about in his book Chatter, into that coach that encourages and says, you know, yeah, you can do this, you can make this happen. And so I think really having, overcoming those self-doubts, and then having, I mean, it's really like those four pieces of hope. It's like having those goals, right?

I had that list and I said, this is where I'm going. This is what I'm going to do. And then it was a process of finding those realistic pathways to connect with those people and say, and help them see that my vision was in service to their vision. And so to see that sense of going beyond my own self-regard to have kind of a sense of what my friend and author Dan Siegel calls mind sight, the ability to see what's in other people's minds and know what it is that drives them and motivates them and how to support them. So that's part of the finding the pathways, right? Which is, and realizing, and this is the

amazing thing is I think when you're on purpose in your life, you know, whether it's just humanity that rises to support you or some even more mystical quality in our world, it's like, like the doors all seem to open. Right. And we're working with a neurosurgeon named Jim Doty on manifestation. And he talks about this way in which you train your mind to see opportunity and possibility. And I think that that, so once you have those goals and you see, and you're focusing on that opportunity and then you find those pathways and then you fucking run like hell down those pathways and you have that sense of like, okay, I may fail. And, you know, and it's, you know, I was scared to death to do those interviews with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, right? I, you can imagine, right? I was like sitting there the night before I was like, when is Oberyn Free

or Anderson Cooper going to come and take over so I can sit my ass down? But sometimes, as Art says, you're the one in the room. And if you put yourself in the room, then something can happen through you that's bigger than yourself. So that ability to say to both be, it's like this incredible boldness and somewhat arrogance to say, like, I can and want to do this. And then the releasing it and the surrendering and saying, this isn't about me. This is about something beyond me that I want to be in service too. And then it's the, you know, as we were talking about the social network that, and the social support that seems to align and help us reach our goals when we, we kind of know what they are. We have to be really clear on what is that intersection of our skills, our joy, and the need of the world.

And that intersection of those three things is the gift that we have to give. And so, you know, it really does go back to joy. It starts with joy. Knowing your joy, joy is contagious. When you know what gives you joy and what you're most alive about, then it's easy to run that marathon

because you're in joy, and people are cheering you on every step of the way. Speak on it, Doug. I love it. I love it. I wanted to say, I wanted to say one last thing, because we've been talking about the individual there is just in terms of the opportunity that we have as a species which is this you know the greatest generation was only the greenish generation because of the adversity they faced in world war ii and we have the greatest challenges that

humanity has ever faced and we have the opportunity to be called to our greatness because of those challenges and to rise to the occasion and to be the greatest generations, not just the young people, us adults as well. And the next several generations, the next 10 years are going to be decisive for humanity. So we have an opportunity to rise to that occasion and to create one of the greatest revolutions in human history, which is going to be on the scale of the industrial revolution with the speed of the digital revolution. And that is the movement to go beyond hydrocarbon and to create a world that actually gives to the environment more than it takes. And that's the challenge. That's the great challenge of our time. And we need to be up to

that challenge. I love Doug. We need to hang more often. It is so fun, Michael, man. it's great to hear um how you're thinking about the world it's really cool and so thank you for having the courage to birth both of those books and to go on that adventure to distill it down into you know just a handful of pages like amazing work and so i want to encourage folks to check out both of those books and then let's drive them maybe to your, your agency. What do you think? Where do you want to drive people? Sure. So people can learn more about our work. It's funny that we were talking about agency and having agency and my, my company is a book and media agency working with visionaries to create a

wiser, healthier, more just world called idea architects. And it's www.ideaarchitects.com. And people can learn about the Global Icon series, the Book of Joy and the Book of Hope, and the other amazing visionaries that we have the pleasure of playing with on the same team. Amazing. All right, Doug.

Soon we'll see each other in person, but let's catch up before that. Yeah, if that doesn't happen. So I appreciate you, Doug. Thank you. You too, Doug. Soon we'll see each other in person, but let's catch up before that. Yeah, if that doesn't happen. So I appreciate you, Doug. Thank you. You too, Michael. Thank you so much. All the best. And thanks to your listeners. Yeah, very cool. Take care. Alrighty. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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