Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Who Are You, Really? Identity, Codependency & Inner Dragons | AMA Vol. 16 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Welcome to Volume 16 of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything (AMA) series. The purpose behind these conversations - behind these AMAs – is to hear from you… to explore the topics and questions that you have been wrestling with on your path to becoming.It is your insights and questions that fuel these epic conversations – so thank you again for all the thoughtfulness, honesty, and trust you put into these questions. Keep ‘em coming!Our co-host, O'Neil Cespedes, is back to guide us through another fun and insightful discussion.In this conversation, we explore a variety of compelling themes like:Infusing joy into the mundane aspects of life.Understanding People Pleasing and CodependencyHow to remain true to oneself while navigating societal pressuresWhat makes a strong support systemEmbodying the “Noble Warrior”Balancing strength with kindness and vulnerability.And so much more… I hope you walk away with some insights about how to navigate life's challenges with grace, strength, and authenticity… and how to find joy just a little more often.Wishing you an epic week._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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The most powerful people, they're working from the inside out. They decide how they're going to do their life, independent of the external conditions. I think we need boundaries. The first thing would be if you can square up with your identity is not what you do. It's rather who you are. Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. It is your insights and questions that fuel these

epic conversations. Our co-host O'Neill Cespedes is back to guide us through another fun and insightful discussion. In this conversation, we explore a variety of compelling themes like infusing joy into the mundane aspects of life, understanding people pleasing and codependency, how to remain true to oneself while navigating societal pressures, what makes a strong support system, embodying the noble warrior, balancing strength with kindness and vulnerability, and so much more. My hope is that you walk away with some insights about how to navigate life's challenges with grace, with strength, and authenticity, and how to find just a little bit more joy more often in your days. So with that, let's dive right into volume 16 of Finding Mastery's Ask Me Anything. O'Neal, we're back.

Dr. Mike, we are back. I know. How are you feeling? I feel great. I needed the rest. back. I know. How are you feeling? I feel great. Like I needed the rest. Yeah. I needed some recovery. Yeah.

I've got a fire in my belly about kind of what's coming next. Yeah. And so for many years in a row, three years in a row, my year of idea was to, I take one idea and the team at Finding Mastery do it. And I do it with a bunch of my clients or teams I'm working with is what is your intention for the year? And so for three years in a row, it was the same thing, roots and reach. So to be grounded and to work on sharing ideas to my best ability. So roots and reach. And then the last three years for me have been the same thing again. So there's a pattern here. Like I'm not getting exactly what I want from year one. So I need to rinse and repeat and rinse. I like to think that I could just hit it once and

like I get the lesson or I, I rose to that version of me, but this year is what it was the last two years, which was play, the year of play. So I just need a little more play. I'm pretty intense. I'm serious. I don't like to take myself seriously, but I take what I do seriously. And so I need more Panda. I need a little bit more play.

I need top of the food chain, badass in so many ways, Pandas, as we've talked about before. And like, so it's your play again for me okay okay so i play too much that's probably my problem but listening you say that you wanted a year of play you know just reinforces me playing even more so thank you for that yeah good because uh i want to keep playing um i think the year of intention for me is I think I definitely need to get a little more serious.

Just a little more, not that much. I need to get just a little more serious because I think I take too many things lightly. So, you know, so I've been told at least. So you've been told. But those people could be wrong. All right. Well, let's see how that shows up in what we're doing today.

Let's see. What have you been up to? You really want to know? I'm obsessed with mundane things, so I'm glad you asked. I'm going to share something with you. Is that cool? Can I share something with everybody? Of course.

All right. So I go through these phases, right? And now I'm going through this phase where I want a uniform. There's a certain thing that I want to wear, that I want to wear. There's a certain thermal that I'm to wear, that I want to wear. There's a certain, you know, thermal that I, I'm wearing thermal right now that I, that I, that I like to wear.

I wear it with everything and I buy them in droves. I just keep buying them, but they're hard to find. So I got online. This might be boring to people, but just bear with me. I got online and I found the thermal, but just not any thermal,

right? You have to get the heavy fabric and thread and whatnot. Cause it's a lighter one. It's two different versions, right? I mean, I've known that. I know. So I ordered like eight of them. I was stoked.

I was happy. I got it. I was like, yeah, these thermals will come. I hope these are the right ones and whatnot. The day it was supposed to come, I was tracking it. I went downstairs waiting for it to be delivered. Yeah, grown man, but I was doing this. Didn't come.

I went upstairs. I accidentally fell asleep, took a little nap, and in that little hour break, the thermals had gotten delivered. I went downstairs to look for them, and they were gone. Dr. Mike, they were gone. Somebody stole my thermals. Sticky fingers. Sticky fingers.

So I thought, right? So I'm roaming my hallways, up and down the floors. I'm looking to see if my box got delivered. Wrong place. Couldn't find it. All the other boxes were there. My thermos were gone. So my day is ruined, right? I'm emailing the company.

I'm telling them I didn't get it. Call it- That ruined your day? Ruined my day. Okay, all right. Yeah. It ruined my day. So I let a couple of days go by.

And then I see a writing, a note on the wall saying, sometimes the USPS, United States Post Office, whatever, accidentally put boxes in the wrong places because they're somewhat kind of lazy. And so I said, hey, let me just drive around the building. You're just pissed off. I'm pissed off. You just pissed off like two million workers.

Oh, yeah, I don't mean all you guys, but just my delivery, My particular delivery guy. So I drive around the building and I find an area where boxes are delivered, the opposite side of the building. So I go there and my box is not there. At the same time I'm getting back in my car, one of the building workers just says, hey, man, you looking for a box for 201, right, where I live? I said, yeah, why you ask me that? He's 201, right, where I live? I said, yeah. Why you ask me that? He's like, I just took that box and dropped it in your front door.

I hugged him, got in my car, parked, ran upstairs. My thermals were there. This is a moment of gratitude? It was a moment of gratitude. I really appreciated it. It's mundane. It's boring. But, you know.

The little wins. The little wins. The little wins. I'm just focusing on the little wins. So now you're wearing thermals on a regular basis. That's the deal. Yes. So everything, we're no longer seeing the Cookie Monster. We're seeing thermals.

No Cookie Monster sweater for, not until next year. It's all thermals right now. It's all thermals right now. Yeah, yeah. Good. Good, so the mundane, I mean,'s a zen um appreciation for the mundane and the zen appreciation is in the way you do small things is the way you do all things and that idea to pay attention to the little things that you do and the way that you respond to them and if you can attend to something as mundane

as a breath with all of your essence focusing on the inhale and with all of your essence focusing on the exhale, it's one of the great mechanisms to increase awareness, to get to the truth of anything because you can attend to it for an extended period of time. And so it's in the mundane that we often can find ourselves. And we often get drunk by the excitement of like whatever, but it's the mundane, the things that most people find so nauseatingly boring that they don't attend to, that that's where for many of the Zen traditions

that you want to point to that as an unlock. And so the mundane of, you know, finding the right thermal to wear and keeping it simple i have a uniform too what's your uniform it's usually uh dark in color yeah it's um it tends like when i present it's like one of two things it's a sweater and jeans and like some semi-casual uh either like um semi-casual shoes or some like sneakers or it's like a kind of a casual button up like this or so it's one of those two things and i don't have to think about it it's almost all the same colors all my sweaters are um dark blue or black and so it like makes it super simple that statement you just made

i don't have to think about it that's the most important part right for me like like there's a tax on on decision making for me and so if And so if I can eliminate some of the small decisions, then I've got kind of more bandwidth to make maybe some of the more discerning, harder decisions. That's exactly the way I feel. With the flannels? With the thermals, with the uniform idea.

I don't wanna make, I don't wanna focus on something so trivial. Do you know how many people are listening to this going, what is wrong with you? Like clothing is an artistic expression. Like why would you tamp that down? Like it's a way to express yourself. And I'm saying, I don't know, not for me.

I heard Rick Owens, one of the biggest designers in the world say that though. I heard him say that he uses monochromatic colors and simple things like that because there's so many beautiful things in the world to see and observe. He doesn't want people focusing on what they're going to wear. Oh, that's super interesting. Brilliant.

I think FOPO actually begins in the closet when people are picking out their clothes. And so FOPO, Fear of People's Opinions, one of the great constrictors of human potential, it's the book we just wrote about, is that I think it starts in the closet or it's one trigger. It's an on-ramp to it, which is this moment where, what am I going to wear? And then reflexively, how do I want to look? And that's in the eyes of other people. Will Susie like this? Will Xavier like that?

You know, will this be the right vibe for them and it's a reflexive like not thinking about how i want to feel and what vibe i have today but like how will i show up in the thing that i'm going to go do later and so i had a little football this morning with you what was that talk to me about that because i i was looking for my cookie monster sweater i couldn't find it i realized like got to step my game up for your approval. And then I thought, what am I doing with myself? Yeah, no, no. I love you the way you are.

Look, I could do it. I'm in the uniform. The uniform is on. This is an expression of who you are. If you came in a Cookie Monster sweater, then I'd be like, is this really you? What has just happened? Yeah, you know, you know, just so.

That's an interesting statement. FOPO does begin in the closet. It does. It's an on-ramp. Yeah. FOPO does begin in the closet. It does. It's an on-ramp. Yeah. It's definitely an on-ramp. Yeah. And I like long sleeves.

I used to, I was only shorts and t-shirts growing up. And then I thought like, I don't know. I'm more into long sleeves than short sleeves. So most of the time, you're probably not going to see me with my guns out. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, this is you though. This is authentically you. And what does Bruce Lee say?

What? To express oneself truly, right? Was that Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee said that. That's how he said it. Yeah, he did like this. Yeah, right. He was like, to express oneself.

I think he did like this. I recognize the words, but I did not recognize the accent. The inflection. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

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All right, what do you say? You want to jump in? Let's do it, let's do it. Okay. All right, this first question is from Grain. Grain, if one has spent years people-pleasing, it can be highly challenging to change. What's a good first step?

What's the first thing I should do? Okay, so people-pleasing is, let's just kind of get on the same page. Do you know people-pleasers yourself? No, not anymore. Oh, you don't? No. They're not part of your community? No, I'm not.

Wow, I can't believe I'm saying that, but no. So truth-tellers and people- people pleasers don't hang out much. And so the dragon of truth telling is so scary to people pleasers that people pleasers tend to just kind of roll over, show their underbelly and say whatever you want. You know, like I'm here to be at your service, but not in a way out of duty, but it's in a way out of self-preservation for themselves. So they please others so that they are okay, not so the other one's okay, right? So there's a radical commitment in self-orientation for people-pleasing. One of the reasons about people-pleasing that's so dangerous is you never

really know who they are or what they stand for. So they're working in the shadows and they make the other person feel good. So now the other person's like, oh, this is great. Everything's going good. The relationship's good. The direction that I'm wanting to take in my life, according to this other person, they're agreeing with it. So like there's confirmation. This is great. But what's happening for the people pleasers are not using honesty. When you're not using honesty and you're contorting in some way, just so that the relationship has some harmony, so that you feel okay, that there oftentimes on the other side of people pleasing is a bitterness. There's an anger inside of them. And they're so

pissed off that they don't know how to speak the truth because of early trauma or whatever. And they're doing their best job. Of course, they're trying their very most. I don't know anyone that's not really trying to figure out life well, even the family members that are flat out drunks, like they're trying their very best. Okay. So there are people pleasing underneath of it. They don't really like that they're being quote unquote weak, that they're not able to stand for something. So there's a resentment and an anger and a bitterness, and there's a toxicity that lives inside of them. They're not working at the truth. They're shape-shifting to be able to feel safe in a relationship that is dishonest. That's people-pleasing. It's born oftentimes out of a reflexive response

to know that you feel safe, that you belong. And that's a sister or brother to codependency. So codependency is different but related. So codependency is I am only okay when you're okay. So my happiness depends and hinges on you being happy. So then what I have to do to be in this relationship with you, O'Neill, is I've got to figure out how to sacrifice or give more than I really want to give maybe so that you're happy. Because if you're not happy, if you're not okay, I'm screwed up. So codependency, oftentimes codependents hang out with addicts. They hang out with very messy lives and the messiness gives them fertile ground to apply like good work. Because if you're a mess and I'm all tidy

and clean, and I've now got a job to help you be a little bit more clean, tidy. And so the minute that you start to say, hey, you know, I'm kind of sick and tired of being sick and tired. I'm a little more fatigued. I've got more pain that I've been stuffing away. I'm not down with being drunk anymore. I got to put the pipe down. I got to do whatever.

I'm not, I'm not, I can't do this anymore. What does the codependent do? Oh shit, I don't have a job. Okay. Yeah. Good. Let's do that. Okay. Good. I say, great. Fine. This is what I've been talking about. Let's get it done. And then there's this subtle, often non-conscious manipulation to keep you drunk. So I have a job. So codependents

and people pleasers, I just described the very dark and ugly side of those two, but they're very dangerous. So the question is, how do I work with it? Now we're on the same page of kind of what it is. How do I work with it? You have to first test honesty with yourself. So you make a commitment to go into the darker parts of yourself and just sit with it. And when you can sit with it, you have the ability to feel what it feels like to touch and be connected to the ugly parts of yourself.

And when you can do that and be okay with it, then you can bring that forward. And then you are more closely aligned with being a truth teller because you're honest with yourself. So just like most of our conversations, the journey begins from within. And it's an inside-out commitment to make that step. Now, second part, if you're in a relationship with a codependent, their hooks are in now. It's dangerous. It's a really dangerous relationship. And so I don't know if it can ever really transform. If you're in a relationship with

a codependent, they need to change and you need to change because it's an unhealthy connection. The way my father-in-law described, he leaned over the night before I was getting married to his daughter and he leans over and he shares this insight. He says, relationships are like two trees. If you grow too close too early, it's like the roots wind around each other and you can smother each other. So you want to make sure that you've got great roots for each other, that you've got your roots, she's got her roots. Then you sprout this really strong independent tree and your branches touch.

And that's where the intimacy is. You can sway together, but because if one is struggling in the wind, the other doesn't have to. So you can be there in a strong way. And so the idea is that you've got your foundation and you're an independent self choosing to blend its branches as opposed to the roots wrapping around each other and the trees circling around each other where they smother each other and it becomes stunted. And that's what happens often with codependents and addicts or codependents and people that are just using that quote unquote weak feeling that people that orientate from a codependent orientation are working from.

So long-winded way to say people pleasing codependency, whether you are feeling like one or you are in a relationship with one, it's a dangerous on-ramp to a limited potential. When you feel like you're codependent and you have to get in touch with the ugly side of yourself, what do you exactly mean?

You know, when you get quiet and meditate or write or you're in a conversation with somebody that is committed to seeing you and they keep asking you questions and they ask you another question and well, how would that feel? And why'd you make that choice versus the other choices? And you're just kind of getting down into the parts of you that you've been holding back from bringing forward because you're embarrassed by it. You don't know how to, how to be honest with that part of you.

It's the parts of you that are driving in many respects the choices that you're making, but you're not allowing the light to shine on that part. Most of us have trauma. I think all of us at some point are going to have micro or massive traumas in our life. And what happens under trauma is that there's a sense of isolation and loneliness, and there's a shame, there's a contour that takes place like, oh, that happened to me, and I don't know how to deal with it the way that I think society would want me to deal with it, so I just hold it back. Okay. So there's this loneliness, the great insult to trauma is, I say this out of deep compassion, it's not necessarily the event itself. And I'm speaking of, in my mind, I'm holding the most heinous of acts that you could imagine. And I'm even holding that tension here. The act is heinous,

but it's the way that the person feels about themselves in reflection to that. And then the sense of isolation, loneliness, and aloneness that comes from it, where they begin to generate protective mechanisms because of that insult was so hideous. Now those protective mechanisms are protecting them from being re-traumatized. So those protection mechanisms are like the drinking to whatever, like it could be all types, lying, people pleasing, shape-shifting, workaholism, fill in the the blanks but those protection mechanisms are required okay so this may sound like a victim statement but i gotta ask this i gotta ask this well you said that the person that's feeling like they're codependent may feel like um i'm

responding because i'm responding this way because i'm thinking society might want me to respond this way. So if I have a picture of what society wants and that affects the way I act and it's in a codependent way. No, I don't think society wants codependent people. I think society, we say we want the strong. Yeah. You know, I don't think they want, I don't think society does,

but your partner might value it. Yeah. Because the codependency is this, I'm not okay unless you're okay. And so I'm going to do whatever it takes, even give the best of myself when I don't really want to, to you. Thank you for that correction.

So I guess my question is this, where does that come from? If I am that codependent person, where does that feeling come from that makes me feel like, okay, if you're okay, I'm okay. I'm going to give you what I think you want me to give you. Where's that coming from? Some sort of trauma where the reflexive part or the responsive part is I'm not okay without the

approval of others. I'm not okay without taking this role as the toxic helper. So at the surface, codependence, like if you, if you're just meeting somebody and they're really kind and amazing, it's awesome, isn't it? And they're like, wow. And you say like, I feel seen like this person really is a great partner. They're a good teammate. They like, they get me. And so you don't realize that you're in a codependent relationship until, until there's that rage underneath the codependent because they are giving too much to you and you're, damn it, you're taking it. And so at the first pass, those folks feel wonderful to be in a relationship with. The second pass,

when you get to the anger underneath, it's quite poisonous. And so why? They're protecting themselves. They're trying to figure out how to be okay in this world. And so why? They're protecting themselves. They're trying to figure out how to be okay in this world. And the early adaptation is, look, let me just play nice. Because if I can do that, maybe I didn't get hit. If I could just play nice and walk on eggshells and be on tiptoes and everything's positive and good and I got straight A's and everything, then maybe I don't get whatever. So at some point, my protection mechanisms and yours and the codependence, they're brilliant at an early stage. Adaptation is really important. So that's an early adaptation. And then from the next,

when you imagine the next version of you and it's not built around codependency, what is it built on? Usually it's truth-telling. And then early stages of truth-telling, when people are new to truth-telling, it comes out like ungraceful. It's really prickly. We call it like brutal honesty. No one wants to be brutalized by honesty, but it's like really scratchy and it's just not conducive to a relationship. But as you practice honesty with yourself and with others, you end up finding this slipstream where you can do it in a graceful way. And so that would be the arc that I think many people pleasers or codependents aspire to get on. I'm sorry, Green. This question went from yours to mine.

All right. Let's go to the next. This question is from Linda. Image is so important in our culture. How do we balance the need to belong the other way if everyone else went that way because I just don't like to follow the crowd. So through doing that, I found myself through just trying to be the opposite. The counterculture is a crowd. I know. Yeah, right? Like you go to a, I don't know, a punk show and everyone's wanting to be punk and different. And then they all look the same.

You know, they're all punk. So I recognize that too, like in the counterculture like i like the act of when the world is zigging my first impulse is a zag yeah um but now i'm hanging out with the zaggers you know right like and there's a there's appreciation we hang together talking about the counterculture. So I think when I hear the question, I hear like, what is authenticity? And I think it's really a tricky question. What does it mean to be authentically you? Because to me, the way I think about authenticity is like, there's some foundational first principles that I'm going to live my life by. So yours might be counterculture. And then when it comes time to

speak truth to power, whatever that real or perceived power is, do you actually express from that first principle? That's what authenticity is. Now that's hard to do when you're pushing up against the trade winds, when you're really pushing up against like speaking to a boss or speaking to a supervisor or a family member or the clergy member that has like, you know, whatever. So I think that that idea is very hard to do, but where it gets tricky is let's create a scenario. Let's say that you and I are at a restaurant and service is awful. Food is cold, doesn't taste right, it's late, server has a bad attitude, and you're with your friends and you really want to have a good night out.

What do you do? Let's say one of your first principles is honesty and another one's kindness and maybe another one is excellence. So there's some challenge here on how you're going to respond to the person. Is it your place to say, hey, this is really terrible service?

Or is another first principle that you have, like go with the flow? You know, like kindness is just, listen, they're probably having a hard day. I don't really need to tell them. They're probably struggling. They know. So what do you do?

What is authentic? To say it or to let it roll? And when those are in conflict, that's where I think we get confused. What does it mean to be authentic? Most people, if you can get down to that struggle, I think you're definitely winning in life. Because most people are working from the outside pressures are influencing their internal decisions, the way that they choose their thoughts, words, and actions. So the outside dictates the internal. The most powerful people, they're working from the inside out.

And they decide how they're going to do their life independent of the external conditions and they can be radically consequential to emotionally challenging and rich to mundane back to our original point but they work from the inside out so when i go there in the conversation what what do you hear relative to the question gosh i want to make sure i say this right and people won't judge me for this statement. What I do. Are you working from the outside? I'm working from the outside right now. Let's go from the inside out.

You guys are seeing me. I'm a work in progress. Let me try to work from the inside out. We all. I observe. I analyze. And then I'm not going to lie to you. I plan on, gosh, I'm going to say this backwards.

I put away a reprimand. I take a reprimand and I put it in my pocket. And I say, I'm going to attack you with kindness. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to pull you aside. I'm going to try to make this as easy a process for you as possible. I'm going to go through the whole process. Maybe you're having a rough day.

It's late at night, whatever. But it's important to me for me and my crew of people to have a great time. I may pull you aside. I may talk to you, give you an extra tip, what have you. But I'm not going to lie to you, Dr. Mike. I do have a reprimand in my pocket in case none of those things work, which is terrible. I know. What's the reprimand?

I'm going to give you a piece of my mind. But I'm not going to give it to you outright. I'm going to put a first, that's not my first option. I'm going to put it in my pocket in case all the other options don't work, you know? So why do you put it in your pocket? What's that for? Why not, why not rest on the first part? Because oftentimes in my experience, you know, it takes a really special person. If they're going through something in their life. It takes a really special individual to really hear you and listen to you and understand that they may be overstepping their boundaries and understand that they may be out of pocket and acting incorrectly. Let's not say special. Let's just say an open-minded person that's really sensitive and listening, right?

Most of the time, people are so wrapped up in the things that they're going through that if you, in some way, address it, their first inclination is to rebuttal and respond with something a little more aggressive or a little more negative. Like I've had experiences with a waiter or a waitress that has an issue and I joke with them a little bit or I hit them with a little more negative. Like I've had experiences with a waiter or a waitress that,

you know, has an issue and I joke with them a little bit or I hit them with a little kindness and then they respond more aggressively. And I'm like, okay, so. Is it kindness or sarcasm? Not sarcasm. Definitely kindness. Yeah. Definitely kindness. I've been in situations multiple times where I'm just like, you know, hey, listen, so I want to just do it like this and or joke with them and they're rude or, you know, they have a certain way about that. I'm like, okay. So from those experiences them. I'm like, okay. So from those experiences, now I'm like, I'm not going to change my approach, but what I am going to do is I'm going to put something in the chamber.

I got some backup. I got some backup in case after I hit you with all this kindness and you still don't respond, then I'm going to give you what you seemingly are asking for, which is a harsh, stern talking to. Okay, cool. Yeah. Okay. No one does it alone.

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I encourage our folks to listen to that interview, but she said something that spoke right to this, is that oftentimes we will trade some part of ourselves for belonging. And that idea that we won't speak truth to power, we won't do the kindness thing that you're suggesting, because we just want to be okay in the eyes of our guestmates or in the eyes of the server or in the eyes of the restaurant. So we trade some part of ourselves to belong and belonging is safety. And there's a massive part of our brain is designed to find danger and then to mobilize against it. And one of the most dangerous things is when our brain 250,000 years ago was going to be, when we were rejected, you and I were in the tribe and we're blown it, underperforming, causing distractions, and we're kicked out of the tribe.

When we're kicked out of the tribe, it was a near death sentence. And so in modern times, we've got this, don't be rejected because that meant death. We saw what happened when people were rejected. They died. They didn't live the good life. So safety and belonging commingle. So oftentimes we trade ourselves for a sense of safety to belong. And that, in some respects, is doing disservice to everybody. But you live longer. You're accepted by others.

But the cost can be the cost can be profound so much of society is built on what's what's presented right and you're right about the whole tribe thing when i look at you be expelled from the tribe man i don't want to be like you i don't want to be like well you see that if i if i'm the one that got expelled i have like a life expectancy of like 18 months or something. Right. Because it's too much to forge, fend, fight, hunt, gather with my three kids and, you know, a couple of cousins. Like, how are we going to protect from the warring tribes, from the wildebeests? It's too much. And so that's why. And now we've got social media and flaming highlight reels where the belonging, the standard to belonging has just exponentially changed. It's changed by people we don't even know. And we're conforming

and contorting to be accepted by the masses as opposed to the intimacy of the neighborhood, you know, or the family. So that, that, that thing that's taking place right now is like, I'm concerned for my 15 year old kid. He's 15 and he's not on social media yet. I feel like we're kind of winning or he's going to turn out really weird. I'm not sure, but like. We got to stop all this and talk about this.

How you do that? I don't know. I mean, it didn't start last year. You know, he's on Snapchat. I'm not sure I really call it social media. I guess we could in some way, but that's like a way that they text and group chat. And I'm watching his minutes, you know, from the background. It's like, he's really just texting in there. So he's not on Instagram. One of the things is that we're really clear that there's thousands of PhD psychologists,

neuroscientists that are working for these organizations to hijack your attention. And I say, look, I'm well-trained and I'm outgunned. And I'll start flipping through and I'm now manipulated because they know how to keep me in their system. I said, it's not until you are a bit older. And I don't even know where that is now, but he's not calling for it. So I use me as an example. Like I get manipulated by it. And it's like, dad, I don't want to be manipulated.

I go, when you're ready, you'll handle it. You know, like we'll figure it out. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, that's the best advantage of having you as a dad. You think so? I'm gonna need you to take me in, man. We should call him in. We should call him in and see before you sign up.

Yeah, right. Oh my gosh. Next question is from Greg. Dr. Mike, I'm a software engineer at Silicon Valley Company. I enjoy what I do and I think I'm very good at it, but underneath it, I have annoying anxiety or fear that I could lose my job. That fear drives me to work harder and perform better, but it undermines the quality of my life. I never am able to let go of work. I ruminate on work way too much. I feel like I've tied my survival to my job along with the way that I'd like to change that. I mean, and I'd like to change that. It takes up too much of my attention. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you in advance. I love the podcast. I hesitate in the response because at one level, it served me really well.

And the cost almost cost me everything though, meaning my relationship with my wife before we had our son. And so it got me really good if I could just for a moment say how I feel about my craft. I feel like I'm inspired by my craft. I can get my arms around it as best as I think I can, but it makes sense to me. There was a point where early in the field of sports psychology um there wasn't a whole lot of research articles i sat in the dirty library when there's still like the micro fish and like there wasn't the internet dewey decibel and micro fishing and i sat in a dirty library uninspired back hallways because

the journals of sports psychology weren't in the front. They weren't in the beautiful part of the library. They were in the back with a metal kind of stack and racks of all these old journals, uninteresting journals, I guess. And I read every one of them. Think about that. Every research article at the time. This was in late 90s. And there wasn't one bit of research in the main field of sports psychology that I didn't read or wasn't familiar with. And it was because I needed to prove that I was smart,

that I needed to prove that I could do something and have approval from other people in doing that. So I had this performance-based identity that was born out of some anxiety, just enough dogged, tenacious things that we say are wonderful, but it wasn't healthy. And it was so unhealthy that I was making decisions, sacrificing relationship for knowledge, for information, for high performance in my life that it cost me a lot. It got me good

though. So I hesitate because I like that I have a good understanding of research. I don't, I'm not at that level now. There's too much research in the field. So I have to rely on other ways to, for the meta-analyses to bubble to the top, for me to have a better understanding of what the trends, for the most part, in research are. So I rely on my community quite a bit in that respect. My point is that I like that I have got that base, and I'm also glad that I figured out how to navigate the relationship stuff. We figured it out.

So the exhaustion that comes from the anxious approach to getting better and having a performance-based identity is draining and it's costly to other people so i think one way to think about it is i think we need boundaries okay so the first thing would be if you can square up with your identity is not what you do. It's rather who you are. And just get that difference clarified. To drop the armor of the performance-based identity is that, and a performance-based identity is I am what I do relative to how well I do it next to you. So my identity is wrapped in how well I do whatever it is that matters to me.

And I'm comparing myself to you all the time. It'll get you good because it'll drive you to the dark places, dusty back alley research libraries, but the cost can be great. So if you could shed that armor and put on some moccasins for a minute and be like, this is who I am. I am, and usually it's not role. It's usually grounded in first principles or rich values. And you get into that place, which is a bit more naked, and you can't hide behind performance. The second thing would be boundaries. That would be the first to examine that. The second is boundaries. When I walk into my home, my sanctuary, there's a threshold from my garage or my front door into my home. I never, big word, rarely, it'd be hard pressed that you would see me walk in talking on the phone. So when I'm

talking on the phone, it's usually business related stuff. So that ends in my car or ends in my front lawn, if you will. I don't have a lawn, but front area. And as I crossed the threshold in the sanctuary, I have animated and brought forward the family member that I want to be. And so I bring that excitement, that kindness, that enthusiasm for life, and I bring it into the sanctuary as opposed to bringing work stuff in. So I need boundaries. I need thresholds that when I walk through that threshold, I bring a different dimension of myself forward. So I need boundaries. I need thresholds that when I walk through that threshold, I bring a different dimension of myself forward. It's not, I'm not different. I'm just bringing that part of me forward that I want to be connected to with those, with those folks. So boundaries is really important. The third is to recognize how your thoughts work. So this is

where meditation and writing and conversation with people of wisdom work so well is when you understand how one thought turns into another thought, turns into a train of thought. And that train of thought can run wild as you're sitting in front of a loved one, as you're sitting in front of somebody that requires and demands the best of you, and you're thinking about your performance or your work is that we have to understand how our thoughts work and be able to work with our thoughts so we can come back to the present moment. So those would be the three that I would point to. Examine performance-based identity, have some thresholds and some boundaries that you can bring different parts of yourself forward and understand how your thoughts work.

How long did it take you to be able to do that, to be able to stop the phone conversations before you cross that threshold? The reason people change is because of pain. And the reason we grow is because we get uncomfortable. So I didn't change anything until my wife said to me, you got to get out. We dated all through high school and in and out of college. And we got married and seven years into the marriage and she's like you get i love you you're a good man

but this sucks this is not a relationship i want to be in no i don't know okay thank you thank you we'll figure it out we'll figure it out like okay what do you want me to change like i've already said this to you like 20 times like i don, I don't know another way to say it. This is not a good relationship. Because it was serving me. It wasn't serving the we. It wasn't serving her by any chance. And so I had enough pain that I had to move out.

And so the whole thing was spiraling out of control. And so that's when I made, there's a difference between saying, right, right, right. Okay. I'll be better. And a fundamental commitment to be better. And so it wasn't until like the shit was spiraling out of control for me that I made the fundamental commitment. And even from that place, it is hard. It's hard to stay with it when I've got 30 years of more selfish performance- performance based don't look at me but look at how well i do something and then you'll you'll think that i'm okay but really never look at me look at look at my armor that i've shined up for you and so it's i still am working on it i'm 52 so i've had 30 some years of one way, 20 years of this way.

I'm much better at it. We like our relationship. If she was here, I would ask her. That would be the truth teller that would be in the room with us. But like, so I'm still working at it. And so what I do matters a lot to me. And so when I'm on the phone, I like those conversations. I'm charged by trying to solve problems, four-dimensional chessboard of business.

Like it's hard and I like it. So you got to pull me away from it. So I need a sense of discipline. When I walk into the threshold, I'm making a commitment to be father, husband, family member in that way and not business leader. Now where it gets tricky, my wife is equal partners in the business. So how do we do that? Date night.

So we do, we do the early threshold and that had abundance about whatever and celebrating like what, what, what candies did you go out into the world and find? And, you know, like, what are you bringing back? That's amazing. And what were your hard times of, of your? And, you know, like, what are you bringing back that's amazing? And what were your hard times of your life? And, you know, thorns and candies or whatever that stupid analogy is. But, like, what were the celebrations? What were the hardships?

Let's talk about them. And then as the night goes on a little bit, like, we start to talk about work. And then we have to cut it off before we kind of wind down. So there's always kind of a little bit of blending. But it requires discipline right when I enter in. I mean, I gotta ask this question, because how does one avoid the tangled web of a performance-based society?

Like if me and you are, you know, we're racing, I'm lying to myself if I'm like, I'm running my own race. I'm not really focused on what Dr. Mike says. I'm focused on what you're doing. I want to beat the shit out of you. Yeah, so I recognize that. And so it makes perfect sense, doesn't it, that we live in a culture that is obsessed with performance.

First grade, second grade, third grade. Like we're starting to get grades. We're ranked. We're compared. So our society is obsessed with performance. It would make perfect sense, at least for the last handful of generations, that we would develop a performance identity. So performance identity, where it gets really sideways to your point, if we're in a race, is this is where I was for a long time, trying to be better than you, as opposed to being my best. So that, that, that Aikido to go from the straining and

striving to fundamentally commit to get better, but better relative to what world standards or your own standards. And so I peek at the world standards, but I'm running my race to be my very best today. And then strip that down. How how does that actually work it's these small little micro choices like like for instance do i grab the chocolate cake or the apple pie or the apple 99 out of 100 people know which one's healthy right would you agree of course the apple pie apple pie 100 so it's like these little micro choices i know and so i'm trying to not lose the joy of celebrating the apple pies and whatever but like these these little micro choices I know. And so I'm trying to not lose the joy of celebrating the apple pies and whatever, but like these small little micro choices towards what I know is a more discerning, a more accurate, a more honest path as opposed to being whipped around by the world around. So I'm trying to take back the things that are in my control.

I gave them away for most of my life. And so I'm on a mission to take those things back and try to master them if I could be so bold. So yeah, you run your race. I'm going to give you a go, but I don't, I'm not that interested in, you know, I'm not, I'm not that interested in what you're doing. It will sting sometimes if I know that I, I couldn't figure out how to run faster. It does sting. So I know what you're doing. I know that I know how to run faster. It does sting. So I know what you're doing. I know how fast you're going. What else am I?

I'm out of control if I'm just trying to be faster than you. I'll trade my values and my virtues, and I'll trade honesty and dignity if I'm just trying to be faster than you. And that's a dark way to go. That's where people start cheating, cutting corners. That's not the path of mastery. And so fundamental commitment on the path of mastery is to work from the inside out to be your best today in this moment. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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on my vision and let go of the FOPO so I don't get stuck. Cool question. Christine, trying to figure it out. Yeah. So first order business is recognizing that FOPO is in there. It sounds like Christine's doing that. Yeah. FOPO is the fear of people's opinions. And I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of our potential is playing the game to be liked by others, to be approved by others. And so what I hear Christine saying is, like, what do I actually do?

Great. I thought the book answered that question. So let me take another crack at it. Christine, did you read it? I'm sure she did. Yeah. So I would start with a meditation practice. And I know that that sounds almost like a throwaway statement, but I would start with

mindfulness because that's the practice of being able to spend time in the present moment long enough that you get to the truth of something. And when you get to the true nature of things, you're working from a grounded place and it's not confusing. That's what wisdom is about, is something that seems complex and complicated is stripped down to something quite simple. And the simplicity of how am I going to make choices in my life when they're grounded in first principles, when they're grounded in a sense felt that I'm okay right now. And if you like me or don't like me, that is less important than this feeling that I have without your approval or even in the face of your rejection. To strip it all the way down to work from the simplicity of that type of wisdom, it takes time.

So I'd start with meditation as a first. I would square up with the performance-based identity. I would decouple my identity from who I am and what I do. And one of the off-ramps, performance-based identity is an on-ramp to FOPO. One of the off-ramps is a purpose-based identity. So it'd be radically clear about what your purpose is. And then with that, you've got your values and virtues that matter to you.

You've got your purpose that you're working toward. And then you're trying to find ways to be honest about living in alignment with your first principles that are where you're pursuing your purpose. Other people's opinions start to fade away. So it's a second order thing that takes place is the shedding of needing approval when the first order is being about your purpose and being about first principles. So if your purpose is to feed kids that are living the streets or something, but you don't have first principles of, let's say, integrity or honesty or something. You'll rob, steal.

You'll be more like Robin Hood. If you want to be Robin Hood, no problems. That's your choice. But you got to figure out what your first principles are to matter or to match up against purpose. And that's kind of it. And then meditation is the thing that allows you to be better at making informed, aware choices, the micro choices about do I choose these thoughts and words or do I choose those

thoughts and words? And it's this constant little navigation that takes place. So I'm saying the same thing like over and over again. Purpose, know your first principles and values, invest in mindfulness. And then just like any habit or something new skill you're trying to build is be around some people that are going to support and have your back and or working on the same thing. So if you can, if you and I are going to go after something together, like let's say that I want to start rolling in jujitsu and I want to get going

on it. And you're like, yeah, I got you. And so like sometimes in these relationships, I have to pay you to really be committed. And that's a coach relationship. And sometimes friends are like, I see you. I got you. Let's go. And sometimes let's say we're both brand new. We can look at each other in the eyes and say, you really want to do this? I really do. All right, man. I do too. Let's say we're rookies. We're both new. All right. How are we going to do this? I got a full schedule.

Yeah, me too. All right. How are we going to figure this out? So you just game plan it with each other. And then when it gets hard, before it gets hard, you tell the other person, listen, if I start slacking, this is how I like to be coached. I need you to come kind of grab me by my scruff and be like, you said now. All right. Right. Jesus, what am I doing? my scruff and be like, you said now. All right, right. Jesus, what am I doing?

So that's how I like to be coached. And so you might not like that. You might rather like a certain way. So I need to know how to coach you. And I want to be coached a certain way as well. So we agree on the way that we're going to do it. We agree on the commitment to do it together. And that just helps so much when we're trying to do something that feels hard,

is to have a little bit of a backing around it. Yeah, it's really interesting about, you know, you saying having a like-minded individual or whatnot, cause I was just thinking the same thing, like, you know, and I love the term, the on-ramp term, I love it. Cause it's oftentimes I find the irony in all of this, like when we are suffering from FOPO or trying to fit in and whatnot, the irony in all of this, like when we are suffering from FOPO or trying to fit in and whatnot,

the irony in all of it is most oftentimes, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, we may be attracted to a person that has those qualities, right? I found myself being attracted to people that seem like they just march to the beat of their own drummer or they're authentically real and true. And there's something that I like about them. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to hang around you. I'm going to be around you so I can absorb some of this. It's kind of like when people go to the movies, right? We romanticize what we could be. We go to romantic comedies and we root for the underdog or we go see a superhero movie because we want to see good done in the world. We don't necessarily

go back and emulate that, but that's what we romanticize to be, right? And I feel like it's the same way with, you know, getting over FOPO. I look at someone and I'm like, oh, I want to be like Dr. Mike. I want to embody these qualities and this characteristic. So I'm going to hang around him more.

I'm going to have coffee with him. Yeah, I like that too. Yeah. Listen, for clarity, I'm still working. I'm a work in progress in everything I talk about. So I shouldn't want to hang around you then? Yeah, I know. Yeah, I don that too. Yeah. Listen, for clarity, I'm still working. I'm a work in progress in everything I talk about. So I shouldn't want to hang around you then? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Back to like a fun little part of it is, are you more like Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader? Who, me? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Why you gotta ask me something like that? Well, because we're just talking about like when you go to the movies and you watch-

I would like to, well, you know, there's a gray Jedi that's in between. Did you know that? No. I'm letting my nerd come out now. There's a gray Jedi who aren't completely good, but they aren't completely bad. I would say I'm more gray. Is that what it's called?

Yeah. What's the name? It's not the gray Jedi. No, no. They're called gray Jedi. It's all in the canon books. And I'm sure they're going to reveal them in the movies pretty soon because that's what's happening.

But yeah. Like Ahsoka. Ahsoka was like that, right? She left the Order. But she was no longer a Jedi. Ahsoka was like that, right? She left the order, but she wasn't Sith. But she was no longer a Jedi. She was no longer a Jedi. She left. Yeah, so I'm more like that, right?

Wait, more like Ahsoka that you got kicked out? Yeah, I'm teetering in the middle. Did she get kicked out or she- She got kicked out for an unjust reason. What was the reason she got kicked out? Gosh, she got framed by a former Jedi, another Padawan that was evil. This was all set up. It was all set up.

Just how nerd you are. This was a set up by me to just see how nerdy you are. So you want everyone to know how nerdy I am. I'm a super nerd. So you're in. Oh, 100%. Why Star Wars? It's just not Star Wars.

It's anything fantasy-wise. Anime, science fiction. I know everything about everything. I watched old Star Trek. You know everything about everything. I watched the old Star Trek. You know everything about everything. That's the quote of today. You know everything about everything. Go ahead.

No, no, no, no. That's gonna be, we might title the show that. Everything about everything with O'Neal, yeah. What you wanna know? Man, you go, all right, don't do that. No, that's not what I mean. I know mostly everything about science fiction, anime, all that stuff.

I'm in all that. So Marvel or DC, is there something between the two? Both. But is there a split? Oh, you mean what's the difference between the both? No, like is there a community like DC is trash, it's all about Marvel? Oh, I mean, there's people that have that opinion.

They don't think DC are doing right by its films and movies. So there are people that have that opinion. But now people are tired of Marvel, they think they're saturated. So yeah, people just shift. I just, I appreciate all of it. What are you interested in now? What are you vibing with or what are you reading

or what are you watching? Right now I'm watching Demon Slayer, which is a huge anime, you know, by this guy and his sister, you know, it's fabulous, it's amazing i just finished attack on titan so like demon slayer like that sounds like the kind of the noble warrior yes so it's exactly what it is yeah yeah it's exactly what it is and that you identify more with the noble warrior the gray warrior or the dark warrior i mean i want to be the noble warrior

you do let me just be honest with you i want to be that cheesy warrior. You do. Let me just be honest with you. I want to be that cheesy. It's AMA-like. How many, we're in the teens now. You're like, finally, I'm going to be honest. I'm going to be honest with you. I need to build some trust with you. I've worked really hard for this honesty. You know that? Okay, good.

Now keep going. I trust you, Nas. I'm going to be honest. Okay, good. I'm obsessed with, I want to be that corny, let the butterfly land on my finger. I love everyone. I want joy want joy happening i want to smile i want to smile and laugh you you frame the whole thing as corny that because i'm still i'm working progress so you want you want to be that but you're you're even in in the aspiration you're hedging yeah i want to be the corny who wants to be corny? I want to be the innocent, no.

Is that what you want? You want the innocent kind of lover of life that you can just freely be caught in the rapture of a butterfly? 100%. You do. 100%. But Dr. Mike, but-

I think it's funny you call me Dr. Mike. I love, I love, I don't know, it's a habit. I was thinking about that when I was driving over here. I was like, well, I gotta stop calling Dr. Mike, but it's funny you call me Dr. Mike. I love, I love, I don't know. It's a habit. I was thinking about that when I was driving over here. I was like, well, I got to stop calling Dr. Mike. But it is a thing. Yeah. I, um, I realized it's a cold, cold world. That's right.

And oftentimes if you're too nice, if you're too soft, you get taken advantage of. People just take liberties. And so because of that, I dwell in the middle. And that's where, you know, my gray side comes in. Because I'm like, I need, I absolutely need this guard, this warrior, this bully, this thing inside me to protect me from the cold world so I can be free to be that lover of life. Because if I don't have that person with a sword, armed with a sword, ready to defend me and to chop the head off of an assailant coming for me, I won't be able to be me. It just got really weird. I feel the sentiment, but I feel the sense. So you train to be a noble warrior,

but you do not want to be lost in the innocence of, because that feels like if you take your eye off, if you take your eye off the potential threats and place it on the butterfly, you could be caught. 1,000%. Yeah. 1,000%. I really appreciate how you're framing it.

If you were to take it one step in a kind of different way, what kind of dragon? So I say there's three things you can train. You can train your craft, your body, and your mind. Those are the only three things as humans we can train. And when my son was like nine, he'd be like, dad, what about the dragon? You can train the dragon. I know I'm not funny. I tried, O'Neal.

I just tried to be funny. I just tried to give you a joke. And you looked at me like I was a four-headed weirdo dragon. Let me tell you why I was doing that. Yes. Because you put me in serious introspective. And then I dragged you to. Yeah. That's good.

I'm on joke mode right now. I'm like, man, what am I going to be? Yeah. So, all right. If you were a dragon, is it a reclining dragon? Is it like a light snort dragon? Is it like a full rage, like, let me out this cage? Or are you running shop?

Like you're sitting on top of the perch, big fire, target for whomever that wants to, you know, take a shot at the kingdom. Meaning what dragon I've honed and grown up inside of me? Yeah. Oh, 100%. 100%. 100% the one on the perch ready to just burn, yeah. It's a horrible thing. So you're like, I am here.

Yes. Right? You want to come into the kingdom, you got to square with me. Yeah. Not necessarily. Let me restate that. He's there. I'm going to use a stupid analogy that I always use that may not make sense at all.

Tell me. I am an alpha male wrapped in a beta package, meaning I'll sit quietly at the table and I'll let everyone else talk. Now, obviously I enjoy people, I wanna talk and converse. I won't activate unless you are threatening me. I don't wanna activate. I wanna walk in and I wanna laugh and joke around. I want everybody to be happy.

It's almost going back to what you said about the people pleaser thing, even though I said I knew no people pleasers. From these questions you're asking me, I guess I you know, the people pleaser thing, even though I said I knew no people pleasers. From these questions you're asking me, I guess I am somewhat of a people pleaser. I'll walk on eggshells for you to avoid confrontation because I want everyone to be happy, right? I want to laugh.

I want to have a good time. I want to be, I want peace, right? But that dragon is inside of me and it's, I think I fostered it so much that at times it's like, if one thing happens, O'Neal, if one thing happens, I'll burn the whole room up.

And over time, as I've gotten older and I've relied on it over and over again, I was just having this conversation with Ryan about this. It's taken over sometimes. It takes a front seat.

When you imagine the next phase of your life, is that still the model or is it a different model? I want it to be a different model completely and totally. What will that model be? 100% the skipping through the fields with flowers and butterflies landing on my finger, no matter what. I've learned that that's a toxic, it's become a a toxic trait and that's something what's the toxic trait what you described earlier yeah relying on that dragon so much that it takes the you know the the forefront

sometimes i mean it's cool it's a good protection mechanism but it doesn't allow people to feel safe unless you have said i will protect you with this dragon and so but there's but if you turn on that person with that rage or that or not even a but if you turn on that person with that rage or that or not even rage but with that fire then they wouldn't feel safe or if they watch you do it to somebody else they might not feel safe so like there's a there's a cost to it you know dragon that that model of dragon um can work for a long time it could work your whole life if you wanted it to there's just a downside there There's a downside to running around the fields looking at butterflies. There's a downside to that too. There's wolves and there's dragon slayers in the world around us. So I want to

be a reclining dragon. I like sitting on my kind of hind quarters knowing that I've lived a life with all types of fire i can still get some fire rolling and it's fine there's a fire in the belly that um doesn't need to rely on um burning the scorch ground around me you know like i can just feel this reclining dragon kind of like there's a bit more chill yeah less kind of scorching and a bit more chill. So that's where I'm heading, hopefully. I like that. Yeah. Reclining dragon.

I love that. You know, I was going to ask you what that was, but I went straight to the scorcher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Straight to the scorcher. All right. Well, listen, I love our AMAs. Anything that come up for you that we didn't address or I said or wasn't or was kind of

confusing or that you wanted to clarify for you? No, you were absolutely crystal clear. Oh, perfect. As always. As always. Sure. Why not? Yeah.

Until we get my wife and son in here and they go mumbo jumbo again. No, Dr. Mike, you will always have an ally in me. I'll stand with you. I'll be like, no, he's not like that. You're his family. He can's not like that. You're his family. He can't be like that. All right. So another AMA, appreciate you and wish you the best. You as well. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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