Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Why Light Exposure is Fundamental to Wellbeing | Joovv, Wes Pfiffner

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Wes Pfiffner, a member of Joovv’s leadership team.Joovv is the first company to develop a modular, full-body light therapy for personal, in-home use.So why am I so interested in light therapy?You probably know that UV light from the sun helps us create Vitamin D, but other colors and wavelengths of sunlight are crucial for our health as well, like red light and near-infrared light.I’ve been hooked on Joovv for a while and I wanted to have Wes on to take a deeper dive into their technology and how it can make a difference for you.In this conversation, Wes breaks down the basics of light and how it works on a cellular level, leading to some commonly known (and some not so common!) ways healthy light exposure optimizes health, and why you should prioritize this therapy the same way you do diet and exercise.Joovv also just launched their next generation of devices – you can learn more and take advantage of an exclusive offer at Joovv.com/findingmastery._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. By trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. And I'm fortunate enough to work with some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers in the world. And this podcast was designed to capture the essence of those conversations. Now, nobody that I've actually had conversations with in this podcast is a client, but these are people that are switched on. They've got a point of view. They've dedicated their life efforts toward understanding high performance from the inside

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terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars.

And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way,

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And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. Now this conversation is with Wes Feifner, a member of Juve's leadership team. Now, if you haven't heard of Juve, it's cool. They are the first company to develop a modular full-body light therapy for personal in-home use. But let me explain what that means. So first, like why light therapy? Why be interested in light therapy? You probably know

that UV light from the sun helps us to create vitamin D, but other colors and wavelengths of sunlight are crucial for our health as well, like red light and near-infrared light. So I've been using Juve for a while now, and I wanted to have Wes on to take a deeper dive into their technology and how it can make a difference for you. So in this conversation, Wes breaks down the basics of light and how it works on a cellular level, leading to some commonly known and some not so common ways healthy light exposure optimizes health and why you should prioritize this therapy in the same way that you do diet and exercise. And so there's this prediction that they're making following the trend that traditionally light

has been based on a function, right? You turn on the lights because you want to see. And what they're finding is, ah, it's so much more important than that. And so you're probably very familiar with junk light, you know, blue light that comes in that keeps us wired and tired towards the end of the day. But this is the red light and the near infrared and all of the healing and health properties that it has to offer. So Juve also just launched their next generation of devices and you can learn more and take advantage

of their exclusive offer at juve, j-o-o-v-v.com forward slash finding mastery. Again, that's juve, j-o-o-v-v.com forward slash Finding Mastery. Again, that's JOOVV.com forward slash Finding Mastery. So I'm excited to introduce you to Red Light and Near Infrared, why that's important and the conversation about it. So let's jump right into this conversation with Wes. Wes, how are you? Good.

Are we going to say that this is take two? We should do that. This is take two. This is take two. This is take two. Take one actually had a little error. We'll call it a Gervais error. And so thanks for sticking with it for this redo here. All right.

So I want to share how I first got exposed to you guys. And one is I love your product. So I want to make sure I just start there. I'm really enjoying it. I want to share my experience with it. But when I was digging around for a competitive advantage for the Seahawks, not the competitive, but a additional competitive advantage, you know, up in Seattle, it's dark. There's a season up there that it tends to get kind of dark. So I wanted to get well read on the effects of light, white light, blue light, red light. And I came across you guys

and I was like, wait, what are they doing? It was significant. You guys have made a significant push into red light. So we were, we connected, had a great conversation, loved what you guys are doing. And so, um, this is a treat to sit down with you. So I just want to say thanks. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it as well. I think we're going to have a good discussion. And I know the last time we spoke, we went well over our calendar time that we had carved off. I got a little bit in trouble for going over because I had other stuff. I just kind of just, you know, when that happens, when you're just in a good combo, you kind of are like, ah.

We did lose track of time. We did. Yeah, it was good. It was awesome. So that being said, here we are what what got you into red light that's a that's a really good question and sometimes i find myself wondering how the hell i got here um and how juve got here and it it really stems from my family and kind of our passion for looking at ways to heal the body. And it really started, man, I'd say in the late early 2000s, like 2008, 2009, 2010, where I don't know how it started, but my family, you know, we're a tighter group and I'm from a family of nine personally. So

there's a- Where are you situated in that? i'm kind of more towards the middle the lower middle so there are six older than me yeah most people say i'm the middle i know but i'm like if i say middle i feel like i'm not really the middle but you maybe cut off my lower body and i'm the middle you know so you're on the lower side of the i'm closer to the middle yeah there's there's three younger than me okay yep yep and so wait, hold on. What was that like growing up? You know, it felt normal because that's like what you grow into. You obviously knew other people didn't have that many family members. Um, so it was different that way. And you always got, you'd always got the jokes, right? Like, Oh, your team could fill out a basketball, you know, or your football team

and stuff like that. But now it's, it's pretty awesome to have that many siblings and we're really close. Um, and they're like my best friends and it's like, I have, you know, eight, eight best friends, you know? And, and so it's been really cool as, as we've grown older. I don't know how my mom did it, um, at all, that many kids and my mom is a special person where, I kid you not, and I tell people this, she didn't favor one person. And that's pretty hard to do. Every parent finds a favorite one that's the golden child, but not my mom. You could not have her bend one single inch like you would think.

But no, she was equal to all nine of us. Where did you guys grow up? I grew up in Iowa. I grew up in Ankeny, Iowa. And so anybody here who's familiar with sports, they hear Iowa. They typically are Iowa or Iowa State. So like Ames, Iowa. I grew up about 30 miles south of Ames, Iowa.

Wrestling? There's a lot of wrestling there. A lot of wrestling. That was not your sport? No, football. Yeah, football from what I can remember. I mean, you know, I remember playing in the backyard with my other brothers, you know, playing, you know, tackle football or I can't remember the, I don't want to say the name of, you know, when you run around, the other person's got to tackle you and then you throw the ball up or whatever. Um, so I was always used to like physical contact. I mean, I had older brothers that could just clean my clock. And so then when I would play sports and go up against people, my own age, it was like,

wasn't intimidating, wasn't hard. Um, it just felt easy easy because I had been playing sports with people who were like three, four years my age. Cool. Okay. I want to see how that plays out for your relationship with Juve, like how that works. But if we start there, like how did you get connected? Why red light? Yeah. So why red light?

What I was saying there is our family started investigating other ways of taking care of the body and really first started hearing about organic and learning about that. And when you're in the Midwest, learning about organic, yeah, that probably happened on the West Coast probably five years previous by the time it got to the Midwest. And so we started, you know, seeing things of pesticides. And then, you know, you see, what's this thing about grass-fed beef? I've never heard about grass-fed beef. And so you start investigating all these things. And then, you know, you see, what's this thing about grass fed beef? I've never heard about grass fed beef. And so you start investigating all these things. And then, you know, people are, you know, my siblings, older siblings are getting older, they're starting to see issues, right? Whether it's a skin issue, or, hey, I'm, I'm not as fresh as I once was, maybe there's something not right about diet and this type of stuff. And so that led down a huge

rabbit hole. And that went on for years. And through that time, I've tried so many different diets. I've tried a vegan diet. I've tried like the raw tell tell five diet. I've tried, well, I was just talking earlier with you. I've tried all corn carnivore diet. So I've tried a lot of different things. And so our family's curious by nature and willing to adapt to something that's not the norm. And when my sister, Melissa, who's, who's a co-founder of the company, she was dealing with a major skin issue, eczema. And anybody familiar with eczema, it can be a really nasty issue. Dry skin, irritable, itchy, and it's just not pleasant. And she had been looking a ton of different ways at HeLa and trying to do it like a natural alternative way.

And she read on like some random forum, you know, of, hey, this person said, I tried red light therapy and it cleared mine up. So she's like, red light therapy. She started looking more into it and seeing that, man, estheticians use this for skin health. There may be something to this. So she did a quick Google search and found that there's a local spa that I converted an old, it wasn't even a legit red light bed. It was like a, they converted an old tanning bed and into a red light bed. So she's like, what the hell? I'll go, I'll go test it within like two to three weeks, completely like gone, like 95% her eczema gone. And she was just amazed.

And she went to her husband, my brother-in-law, Justin, and she's like, this is amazing. And she's like, hey, how can we, I can't keep going there. It's expensive. It's cross town. How can I do this at home? And she's like, can you rig something up? Because he's got an engineering background. So naturally, maybe he could see could see well and even before that she looked on the market nothing you could use at home i mean the things that you could use for light therapy at home it's from those websites where you you feel like you're going to get a virus what does that mean you know what i mean like there it just doesn't look like a safe website yeah yeah you know what i mean where you're like ah they may ship me the product or they'll steal my like credit card information okay yeah yeah you know one of those websites

where it's like looks like a website that launched and you know when the when the internet launched yeah right um and so there just wasn't anything and so what year are we talking about oh this is probably 2014 2015 yeah that and i was gonna i going to, I was going to imagine like, it's not that long ago, right? That red light I've known about red light for a bit, but it was your experience. It wasn't a, it wasn't, there wasn't a central hub and you guys made it professional. You know, I don't know if you made the industry. Um, I'm not really sure how that began, but it's certainly something that is talked about often right now.

Without a doubt. And I think the biggest thing we've done for the industry is we've shed, and no pun intended, we've shed a new light on it where it's not about just for skin. And that's how it's been used the last 20 years. I i mean anybody that's gone to an esthetician that they're in the and if the esthetician is pretty savvy she's been using light you know to to heal the skin um using blue light blue light can be used to kind of kill bacteria and then they use red to kind of rejuvenate the skin so estheticians have been using it and there's been companies around doing that there's a guy that i was doing some work with um this was probably 15 years ago for deprivation tanks like um what are they called now not a deprivation tank there's another more float tank yeah float tank and so back in the day it was more it was about depriving your uh sensory systems and it was always a little weird, like, Hey, did you empty this

salt bath basically from the last person that came in from, and he's like, no, and I would get skeeved about it. And I know that's not what you guys are doing, but he's like, but I got this blue light kit. I got this, that, and the other, I've got the filtration system. And it was the first time I was exposed to blue light and what that actually does to microbiomes and bacteria. Maybe not microbiomes, bacteria for sure. So, okay, so now fast forward back to your story is that there wasn't a thing there. And then you said, okay, we could actually make a unit? Or did it start with that you wanted to build a business?

Well, it started with just a unit. And then I was like, okay, maybe we can do this makeshift one. or did it start with that you wanted to build a business? Well, it started with just a unit. And then I was like, okay, maybe we can do this makeshift one. And what he first came up with is he used incandescent, not incandescent, he used heat bulbs, like an infrared heat bulb that you could buy from like Menards for like $10. Put them on a panel, did it like, you know, probably like, I don't know, 25, 30 of them spaced them out. Like something you would like, I don't know 25 30 of them space something you would like i don't know incubate chickens with like those yep yep yep or like a horse you'd

heat a barn with it or something like that yep and and when you look at you look up the wavelengths it gives off it does give the red and near red but it's it's like a full spectrum so it's shooting out a ton so imagine a sprinkler just shooting out. So it's actually like 3% was right in your infant. So my sister was like, hey, it feels good. Like the heat feels good, but it's just something isn't the same. It's not the same. So then they looked further and they're like, oh, it's actually a small band of wavelengths that actually has any effect on the body.

And so then they looked at, oh, okay, people are using LEDs to do this. And before LEDs, it was lasers. And then NASA really started in the early 1990s, started using red LEDs in space. And so since then, they've proven- What were they using them for? To grow plants. Okay. Yep. To grow plants. Because lasers are a bit tricky, right? Like they're trickier.

You know, there's actually some risk involved with using lasers. Yep. And you know, the body. Yep. Tell me about the risk that for near and or for LED lights. It's actually very low, extremely low. Because what they've discovered is you don't need to deliver such high power to stimulate a change in the cell. You don't need to deliver such high power to stimulate a change in the cell.

You don't need it. So that's why the industry has primarily shifted to LEDs because it's way less expensive and it's much safer. And you can treat a much broader area. So imagine you're in, let's say, a PT office and you're treating maybe an ankle or something. You're using like a laser, you're treating like the size of a pin, you know, maybe even smaller. But with LED, you could treat the entire area. Okay. So your sister had a really good experience, red light. It was for eczema, rash basically type of condition. And you guys go go and say let's build our own tinkered

figured out it's not these chicken incubating type things it's not uh late we're not going to use lasers we're going to move to leds there's a narrow spectrum that you guys found that is optimal for is it skin or is it subdermal stuff that you're most interested when we first launched the first product in 2016 we launched with just light. And so red lights purely for the skin. Yeah. And there's a difference between red and near infrared. Okay. Let's start there for just a moment. Walk me through the difference between the two and why we should be interested in both of them. Well, the difference between the two is going to be the length of the wave. Red is a much shorter wavelength than near infrared. They're close in the spectrum.

So once red light is the last visible, then it goes into near infrared, which is invisible. So that would be outside of the visible spectrum. That's why if you've seen a juve panel or a lookalike, it has these dark spots around it and it's always like patterned. And so there's light coming off those LEDs. You just can't, the human eye can't see it. And so it's the penetration depth. Okay. So near infrared goes deeper. You got it. And so is there some thought that it can actually get into the bone? Yeah, there, there is some research that it can get and, and, and reach all the way to the bone and that, and that's going to go the difference of like the intensity, how close you are, you know, maybe your, your, your skin type, some skin type, it's harder to get through some, it's not, there's a lot of different variables there that's still

being discovered. But the, the, the amazing thing about red and near infrared is it's 2020 and people listening right now are first really hearing what the hell red and near infrared is. It's 2020 and people listening right now are first really hearing what the hell red and near infrared light is, which is pretty remarkable considering like the sun has been around since the existence of human life, right? And yet, if I was to ask you, you know, what's one thing people know about the sun? It's UV, right? People connect, oh, the sun's UV. But where we've gotten away from light and natural light is, oh, I can supplement that, right? They don't tell you, no, you need to go out. Well, when you break it down, the sun is full spectrum. Full spectrum of light.

Full spectrum of light, meaning gamma rays, x-rays, radio waves. It's delivering everything. So we don't have to imagine we can see it. In the sky, there's this burning fire that's just blasting out full spectrum light in all the non-visible and visible spectrum. And as it goes and hits Earth's atmosphere, it blocks. The atmosphere blocks a lot that gets through, most of the harmful ones. And the visible is obviously getting through in the infrared. That's what heats the Earth. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested nsf certified for sport or informed sport so you know exactly what you're getting personally i'm anchored by what

they call the momentous three protein creatine and omega-3 and together these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery brain function and long-term energy they're part of my daily routine and if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray.

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Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmasteryMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, so the sun, what do you know, has some value to it. It has some value to us. And what I think people need to realize is there's more value to

it than just vitamin D. And that's where we miss the mark majorly. And I mean, we miss it completely. And the amount of UV that even gets through the earth's atmosphere, 4%. What does that mean to you? It means one, it's very beneficial, but it's very potent. The sun. The sun. And UV specifically. So what I'm saying is primarily the wavelengths that make it through and that are actually hitting your body when you're out in the sun, it's not UV.

It's actually, if you look at the intensity, the most energy being delivered, it's in the red and near infrared spectrum. So that's what I mean. When you hear about, people always say, and you can read this all the time, and I read this all the time during this pandemic. Well, what's the best thing you can do to prevent this virus? Live a healthy lifestyle, right? And what's always in there?

Make sure you get sunlight. But people don't know why. They have no idea of the reason why, except for vitamin D. But I hear a lot of people, oh, I don't need to get out that much. I take a vitamin D supplement. Well, that's true. That's beneficial. But look at what else you're missing. You're missing all of these other wavelengths of light that provide beneficial effects on your body. Red and near infrared happens to be one of those

that our cells really need, and specifically the mitochondria. So what we try and educate at Juve specifically is we're out of balance with the amount of light we're getting, and we're really out of balance with the amount of red and near-infrared light we're getting. And you've mentioned blue light. We're overexposed to blue light, right? We have a complete imbalance. And in fact, the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency released this in 2018, 90% of Americans' time is now being spent indoors, their lifetime. It's like 93% actually. So we're just not a balance, right? And we do this as a society, and humans in general, we advance very quickly. And then we realize, huh, that might not have been the best thing to do. And rewind like 100 years ago, we just discovered what vitamins were. Vitamin D wasn't officially discovered until like 1926, something around there.

And so we're just discovering what light really is. I think 2017, a circadian biologist was awarded like the Nobel Peace Prize. Like we're understanding, oh, circadian rhythm. Oh, we actually need to go to bed when it's dark and not stay up, you know, past midnight. Midnight is called midnight because it's supposed to be in the middle of the night, not bedtime. You know what I mean? So we're just out of whack. And you go back with stats with light.

Go back to the early 1900s. The average American slept nine over nine hours. Now I think they're lucky to get six and a half. That's right. So, so there's this, I guess the point is I'm saying light is a fundamental piece of our health that we just, in general, most people don't have a very good understanding on. And once you start wielding it to your, to your benefit, you can see pretty traumatic changes. Yeah. So one, there's that idea, just grandma said this for sure, like get outside and go play, you know, like that type of old wisdom, you know, and what is it is about movement? Yeah. It's also about being out with nature and it's also And it's also about getting some sun too. Now, where that changed, as you'd recognize, is that skin cancer.

So that's where the narrative changed. And so that's because of the harmful rays, right? The harmful rays that are coming through and whatever. And our skin isn't adapting properly to that. So this is what I hear you saying. The sun matters. There's a spectrum inside the sun that's really interesting and it's called red and near infrared. And you guys are saying, okay, so we're going to bottle that basically. We're going to create an experience for people to get more red and near infrared. Exactly. Okay. So all right,

why not go out in the sun? Well, here's the thing. It's tough. I even know all these benefits of the sun. It's hard for me to get outside. It just is. Our schedule is, you know, we got to pick up the kids, got to take them to your, your inside working. You're lucky if you can get, you know, a 20 minute lunch break outside and also at the intensity matters. So there could be extremely cloudy days, right? You're getting some rays through the clouds, but a lot of it's blocking. So there's those times when, you know, it's hard to exactly do the right dosage calculator. You may not get, and a lot of times we're fully clothed. When can I be outside, you know, fully

naked and actually get a good exposure. It's hard. So I would say it's just our lifestyle has made it extremely hard. I think a lot of people would rather be out in the sun. Most people say, like when they go on vacation, they just feel good. They're also out in the sun. You know what I mean? They're away from all the bullshit they're dealing with in the office, the computers,

the regular that. Yeah, true. But you're also giving your body a nutrient that you've been, you know, it's been lacking. So one of the things that I'm, so the skin part is interesting. That's interesting to me, but not fully, you know, I want to spend some time on the skin because there are folks that have got got some skin conditions um and are looking for regeneration you know like that um that idea but i'm i'm interested in how it's affecting coming in through the eyes so the eyes are actually part of the brain so how it's actually

touching the brain and what you're finding there i'm also interested in what are some of the, um, um, health slash performative benefits that you're finding as well. And then we'll double click underneath, uh, for the research that where you all guys are on research. And, but just at the top line, what are you finding as brain, but let's go skin, then go brain, then go health, and then go performance. So for skin health, I think the biggest benefit you see from a skin perspective is a mechanism of action as a result of doing a treatment. You're seeing an increase in blood flow. You'll see vasodilation pretty quickly within seconds to a minute. And why is that important?

That's important because the skin needs proper blood flow, right? For collagen production, it just needs blood flow. And in fact, we have a really good article on our site that goes into the importance of blood flow. And you'd be surprised of how much inflammation can be associated with the lack of blood flow to an area. And in fact, I don't want to go off topic here, but it's kind of relevant. Um, blood flow is, I mean, it's so important. And even the, even

it's being re readjusted of how to necessarily heal. Like let's say an ankle sprain, right? What's the thing you first hurt all the time when you were a kid ice it rice yep rice rice yep the guy that created that has now he's walking it back walking it back yeah walking it back yeah we're we're hearing that narrative a lot which is maybe we want to get blood flow going to that area yes like allowing the inflammation to do its job which is naturally protected and to bring some nutrients into that area, uh, both for protection and for recovery. And how does it, how does it get there? You got to have blood flow. Ice blocks the blood flow. So red and near and Fred increases the blood flow. And I think the way I look at skin health, this is just my personal stance on it is that's like

an outward of, of like, Hey, something's not right on the inside, right? There's maybe a diet issue. There there's something there's somewhat of an issue where, and the skin's just reflecting it. Right. That's how I kind of look at it. I think beauty, you know, we say it's with starts within, well, I think it starts on a cellular level within, I think we see these domino effects. And I want to talk about this later about like the importance to seek balance and what your body does to ultimately achieve and maintain balance. It will sacrifice other parts of the body just to maintain balance. You know when you say that, like I've got – I always get my antenna perked up when someone wants to talk about balance because I'm like, listen, homeostasis, I get the science term homeostasis and kind of trying to find that balance point but from a lifestyle perspective i don't even know that it exists in this world of um this modern world that we have so and i think where you just kind of pivot is that you're

actually want to talk more about homeostasis but that being said it's amazing what our body will do to adjust for, quote unquote, balance of the body. And so we will contort our hips and our shoulders and our ankles and our gait so that our eyes can be balanced. So that our eyes can look into the world and say, okay, this is the terrain that I need to navigate. And you'll contort your entire body so that your brain can have the right orientation. Imagine if one eyeball was on top of the other. It's like your brain's not fit for that. It could probably adapt. I'm sure it can.

So finding that quote unquote balance that way, it's amazing the compensations that our body can make. And that's where I was actually going to go. I was going to go there. Yeah, I was going to go there. I think another good example that I like to share with people is like your body will sacrifice other parts so if you are you mentioned one of like a structure it'll sacrifice structure but also if you're let's say you're vitamin d deficient yeah and it will and and for those that don't

know vitamin d is important because it helps the stomach absorb calcium that's one of the the functions of that what vitamin D can help. And also in that mix, we'd be remiss to not to talk about the importance of magnesium. Yep. Right? So you need some D. You need, it's like, it doesn't, this is what I want to dig into with you as well. And I know that we're, I still have in my mind that the four things I want to hit and

then some science, but one thing alone, it's not going to work now. Exactly. The balance. That's what we're saying. Balance. Yeah. Oh, so that's the, how you're using the word balance. That's how I'm using it is it's, it's more than one thing. And where we are at as, as when someone looks at how to take care of the body, the first thing we go to is, oh, let's change your diet. It's got to be all about diet. It's about diet, diet, diet, right? It's all we hear diet and exercise, but now we're seeing this recovery start to come up. Oh, you got to actually recover the body. Oh, you should actually see how your heart rate is, how your HRV is, how your brain waves are firing. You should see that

that matters, right? You know, just, just getting a balanced diet. That's only half the scale. That's not keeping you balanced. You know what I mean i mean and so we that's where it can be and i push on you a little bit red light alone is near infrared is not likely the solution no absolutely not like sunlight is not the solution you bet sun is important as we're both recognizing sun early in the day is important right and so okay all right. I think we're mapping on this in the same way, but let's, let's stay with skin for a minute. You're saying blood flow, blood flow. Yep. And you're saying, uh, because of blood flow, what else is taking place? There's, are you accounting for mitochondria inside of that? Yeah. Okay. So that's the base mechanism

of red and near-infrared light therapy in general is it's stimulating the cells and specifically the mitochondria and specific decode mitochondria. So the mitochondria is, it's an organelle and it's found in every living cell in the body, right? Different cells have more. So like, I believe the heart has like, I think the most mitochondria in the body. Um, and there's actually, you know, until last, I think actually earlier this year, I think it was February or January, a paper was released where they first discovered that there's mitochondria free floating in the bloodstream, unbound from cells. And the purpose of mitochondria is? Is to create energy. It's the powerhouse.

It is like, it's one of the key holes for living a vibrant life is making sure that mitochondria are working properly. Right. And this is one of the reasons I was really interested in it, in your product, is that it's stimulating what you guys think is happening. And I want to, from a science perspective, like how certain are you? That's pretty definitive. Like that's pretty, that's pretty, the stance isn't changing on that mitochondria stimulated. Now, there's different

theories on how it's doing that, and there's many different factors, and it gets super complicated from nitric oxide to NADH to the electransport chain. There's a lot of different mechanisms, but there's no debate. The end result is you see cells increase ATP production. So that's adenosine triphosphate. That would be the energy currents of the body. And you see a reduction in reactive oxygen species and reactive oxygen species. It's a by-product of creating energy. So it's like a necessary evil, but if you get too much, it can just cause absolute havoc to the cell. So seeing, so you're pretty clear that if you put a little bit of near infrared and red, both or just one, either spectrum will, will

stimulate the mitochondria at different depths, at different depths. So like if you, and the, and again, I'm going to make this over simplified is that when you, when you apply near or red light to a particular area, mitochondria will be stimulated. That's the workhorse. That's the energy mechanism, one of the energy mechanisms, but kind of the substrate cellular energy mechanism in the body. You got it. And when that happens in skin, let's say, right? And again, for elite athletes, the ATP mitochondria chase is it's cool. Like it does for nerds like you and me, like it gets down into that level. What are we doing to amplify access and opening if, if you will, the ATP floodgates for mitochondria or with in tandem

with the mitochondria conversation. So if we got some mitochondria stimulated in the skin, how do you think about why that's valuable? Well, one, it's valuable as you need cellular energy. The body needs cellular energy to work and to function, for repair, to maintenance, everything. And that's where what I was saying earlier is if humans are not getting this crucial nutrient, we're out of balance.

So what's the body going to do? We're going to compensate. And so what do we see when folks implement our products? We see pretty big systematic changes throughout the entire body. Everybody has a different experience. And, you know, from what we've seen and some of the research we've done, we've seen benefits from hormonal aspect. I've seen testosterone increased in myself. I've seen it

increase in others. I've had, I've been like, Hey, let's do, you know, just, just give it a chance. Let's do a pre and post test. We've had customers say, Hey, I did a pre and post test. And my doctor's like, what the hell did you do? So when I got your product, because I was interested in the hormonal panel and testosterone, I did a panel and i haven't done a post yet and so we should get that going you know definitely i definitely want to do that and see what the kind of pre and post look like but so i did the same thing because um listen if testosterone and hormonal uh panels become i don't know more tuned that's cool that's really cool so and you've seen from a research as well as yourself yep testosterone enhances men and women or just men?

Well, this is where your body is very smart. So your body wants the energy. Then it's going to function as it's programmed to do. So like a natural question would be like, oh, it increases testosterone. Is that going to happen with females? That's right. And in fact, in the study that we participated in, we actually saw a balancing effect with female hormones. So if they were too high in, let's say, progesterone and estrogen, it brought it to a balance. So if someone was too high progesterone, it lowered it. If someone was too low with estrogen, it brought it back up and vice versa. It brought it back to a bounce. It almost seems too real. It does. But when you break light down

as light, it's energy. So that's where it helps. It's not illumination. We look at it like, okay, even light right now on this podcast, we got light because we're using it to illuminate, to fix the lighting. But it's energy. Light is energy. It's literally traveling waves of energy that's going through. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What is the spectrum you're interested in? The spectrum of light? It would be specifically from 600 nanometers to about a thousand nanometers and specifically 650 and 850. Those wavelengths specifically between that, I mean, we're talking 400 nanometers and there's thousands, hundreds of thousands of wavelengths, right? And so there's just a teeny little band

that actually causes this stimulation effect on the cells. In the 700s, like 700 to I think 760, between 600 and 850, nothing no effect doesn't doesn't stimulate it so it's like we've stumbled across this and it was actually an accident it's actually a good story that the the original origin story of of uh red light therapy was using a laser and they were trying to radiate a tumor off of a rat's tail and it generated hair regrowth. So they were like, okay, there's something here. And that happened in the 1960s. And here we are. So there was an accident. It's kind of like the, you know, a post-it notes and Gatorade and like the, there were captured

accidents. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So skin, we got some stuff there that's interesting and you know okay the cheap conversation is what does it do to wrinkles what does it do to moles and not moles but like sunspots like what happens skin is probably the most well-researched area anti-aging wrinkle reduction that's where can i can i say i'm not sure i like that phrase anti--aging. Anti-aging? Yeah, I know it's an industry. And I'm not saying that you're part of that industry, but maybe. But I think I want to age gracefully. Yeah. I want to age in a way that captures wisdom and peace and understanding and deep ability. I'm not trying to anti-age. I'm trying to do something

different. I don't have the language around it. But when I hear anti-aging, I think of, like, I almost get sad. Like why, you know, like. I get what you're saying. You're looking at like someone's afraid of it when you should. And it's a whole, now here we are in Los Angeles and there's an industry built around, you know, tucking and filling and whatever so that they look younger than they actually are. So, um, but on the anti-aging, like let's, let's pin that for a moment, right? What you're actually doing in the red light band that you're interested in is you're saying, okay, no, actually we're going to stimulate mitochondria to maximize what you already have available. You got it. So I don't see that as

anti it's like promoting something. I don't know. It's not promoting aging, but it's like, it's some sort of other thing. It's definitely. And that, and that's when I said anti-aging, that's definitely an esthetician, right? They're going to say, Hey, come here, anti-aging that's definitely an esthetician yeah right they're gonna say hey come here anti aging and that absolutely but really to me anti-aging it's not it's not necessarily i mean technically if you want to get technical yeah you could say it's anti-aging but it's really just getting your body to where it should be yeah what it's capable of exactly exactly because the mitochondria blood flow is taking place exactly Exactly. Is it any more complicated than that? Blood flow and mitochondria?

No. Okay. Why is collagen? So collagen is a thing, right? After a certain age, we start to lose collagen. Like a lot of other things, you know, there's like, there's some cliffs in our life where there's a radical pruning that takes care that takes place in the, in the brain early. And then there's another pruning, couple prunings that take place. But, but as far

as like, and pruning when I'm talking about brain connectivity, right, we don't need right now, I don't need all the brain connectivity that I had when I was two, you know, like, I'd be overburdened. I mean, I can barely handle what I have now, you there's some pruning that takes place for reasons. There's a reason our brain naturally does that. Some days I don't want it because it's like tip of the tongue, like what is that person's name? I wish I had more connections sometimes, but I don't want to be burdened with some of them either.

That being said, there's a pruning that takes place with collagen and testosterone and fill in the blanks, right? So, so can you speak just a little bit on collagen and why that is being positively impacted from? I think it probably goes, Michael, to everything, what we're saying of it's the cellular level, right? And so if you can just give your body what it needs, it's going to return. And the reason it faded is because it didn't have the resources to maintain it needs, it's going to return. And the reason it faded is because it didn't have the resources to maintain it. So it's going to sacrifice it and it can't maintain resources, the resources. And when I say that is, and this is the example I wanted to say about

the bloodstream, your body, if it doesn't have enough calcium, it will take it from your bones to maintain the bloodstream. We know that's true. And why does it do that? Because the bloodstream is important to keep you alive. So it will keep the blood pumping. It will keep the body going. At the compromise of your bones. And it'll compromise your bones, but it'll do that everywhere else. So if it can no longer support collagen, healthy skin,

it's gonna break down, right? It's gonna, okay, this is all the food we're getting. This person doesn't get outside. They don't exercise. This is what we got to work with. We don't have the workers to maintain that. We got to let it go. Okay. So this is also why I really like this part of the conversation because it's not like, okay, you go outside for 10 minutes a day and you're good. You buy a juve kit and you're on it for x number of minutes a day you're good no more you don't it's not that simple now but here's what i'm here's my experience is that i want to break away from the science and just kind of share and you tell me what

your experience with all many people that you uh that use your product one is it just feels good like i'm in front of these warm ish, it's not hot, just as warmish. And then what I do is I stack it where I will, um, listen to a podcast or an audible book, or I will meditate. And so I'm standing in front of the light. And then at the end, all of a sudden, let's say it's 10 minutes, and I'll go forward 10 minutes and then back 10 minutes. I've got one panel. Is that at the end, I am stronger, smarter, and better looking, and I'm a little bit taller. None of that happens.

Damn it. But there's no noticeable thing that takes place right away. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. I actually like it. And I think that makes it hard for products that are onto something important. Because you have a little sip of coffee. I don't drink coffee.

I'll do tea. I can notice the caffeine. I can notice it. If I have a glass of wine, I can notice it. When I step away from the panel, I don't notice it. If I have a glass of wine, I can notice it. When I step away from the panel, I don't notice anything. So this is why I think the science narrative is really quite important. So this is why I'm geeking about mitochondria and as the stimulating mechanism for it, blood flow and mitochondria. Correct? you're saying it's that simple.

I mean, to, to my, as much as I can understand of how the cells and operate is I, I fundamentally believe we see such a big increase is because we are deficient in, in, in light exposure. And so when people get it and I'll use an example from a customer. And I don't want to just, you know, paint the picture that this is about hormones and things like that. And in fact, there's no guarantee that it might do that to your hormones. You might not see the jump that, let's say, your neighbor sees if he was to start treatment, right? It's how your body's going to react to this. And it's still a well, there needs to be a lot more research for hormones. And we're digging into that ourselves as a company.

But you fill in the blanks to me when I tell you this. I had a 63-year-old male, purchased our product in last December, did a blood test, blood panel, saw his hormone levels, redid them back in November. So he went roughly close to a year. He's 63 and his testosterone tripled at the age of 63. So I don't want people to start, don't focus in on the triple, just focus in on the age 63 and the increase in testosterone. Society will tell you that's not right. You should not be able to do that at 63 years old, right? But I look at it as what happened to his testosterone? How did it even get that low with his age? I fundamentally don't believe it needs to start declining at the age of 30. I don't think we should start declining as human beings at the age of 30. We're still

very much in our prime and we're very capable. We just don't know how to best take care of the system. Right? So if you start giving the body what it needs, it can maintain itself. So I liked what you said earlier, anti-aging. Yeah. I don't believe in anti-aging. I think it's just maintenance. And so imagine you went starving for light and your body's like, okay, we, we can't, we don't have the energy to keep the hormones going. So it's gotta, it's gotta, it's gotta fall. Right. But once you give it what it needs and that may be what he needed, some people have, right. It can be poor diet, right. To lead to low hormones. There's lots of other reasons, right? This is just one specific case. Okay. I'm nodding my head to yes, yes, yes, yes. And then, but help me understand like how you guys are positioned against mother nature, you know, like mother nature can provide it for you. And

listen, I use both. So I, this is what I do. And tell me if I'm not doing this right, is that I wake up in the morning as early as I possibly can. I'm actually a night. My circadian rhythm is more of a night preferred person. So my morning is around 7-ish, 7.30-ish. And first thing to do is a little walk outside. So I'm just getting some sun. But I'm in Southern California.

I'm in shorts and t-shirt. So I'm getting some sun, but really the sun I care about at that moment is for circadian rhythm, the stuff going into my brain. And then I try to spend outside as much as I can, whether it's surfing or whatever, but I'm making sure that I am using Juve once a day. So am I overdoing it? It's hard to overdo light. It's really hard to overdo light. Now it's, it's harder to do these wavelengths of light, right? There is, it gets to a point where you're not getting much of a return,

let's say on your investment in time. Right? So if you were to like, you know what, I love this thing. I'm going to do it for three to four hours a day. Juve you're talking about. Yeah, Juve, exactly. You're going to get to the point where look at it like a batteries on a charger and it's it's completely you know full full right and there's different ways you can use light like let's say a juve panel right like for myself i really like to do um go on long runs and you know four or five miles i mean for me that's a long run four or five miles someone's out there saying but anyways i and so, and so I want to recover, right? And I'm, I'm going for speed too. So I'm, I'm trying to improve mile times. And so I'm putting a strain on, you know, my, my calves, my legs. So you're using it more for recovery.

A hundred percent. For performance. Because what we talked about earlier is to recover from an injury, you need the blood flow. You need the inflammation process. What are some of the other performance benefits that you're noticing or that you're finding? Man, it can be individual-based for sure. But as far as the research goes, there is showing there's a lot of research for improving endurance. So there's some more energy, more reps. More reps were done compared to like a placebo group. The recovery is increasing.

In fact, we've participated in, in a study with, um, with a group out of Brazil and we tested water polo athletes and posted them post recovery, um, or post post event compared to a placebo. And we saw reduction in the lactate compared to the placebo group. And we saw an in the lactate compared to the placebo group. And we saw an increase in testosterone. Like it got, cause anytime you go through a rigorous event, your hormones are going to drop a little bit, right? The body, it utilizes energy. And so we saw the testosterone raise quicker back to normal versus placebo. And that goes exactly with what you see

with red and near infrared light is it's most effective for cells that are under oxidative stress. And we're constantly going through oxidative stress all the time. When we wake up, if you are you familiar with Matthew Walker, the sleep, he'll tell you the minute you wake up, you're you're going through brain damage. Yeah. Like the minute you're active, you're going through brain damage. And and so your point of me saying that is every day we're putting stress on our bodies, right? Um, whether we're doing physical activity or not, just going through the day can be stressful on the body and we need to recover. And so where, where light is important there is your cells need that. So we're always needing to recover. That's why we sleep

as human beings. We need to sleep. So from an athlete's perspective, it's very, very important that you replenish those cells that are under stress and get those returned to normal. And that's what we see versus a placebo group is cells return back to homeostasis faster. And not only faster, but they also have a better defense than set up the stronger. So that would likely also hold up for non-athletes. Yeah. And the cognitive load that many of us have that are not athletic as a profession, the cognitive load,

meaning the thinking load that takes place for people, there might be a benefit there as well. Exactly. And you, you were saying some stuff about the brain, like what, what, what do I know of how it impacts the brain? I can tell you what I know from myself is if I don't get, if those mornings you wake up foggy for whatever reason, five minutes to 10 minutes in front of that, completely gone. And I'm like, I'm focused. It's almost kind of like go time where I'm just locked in and that's gone. Where in previous, that might hang around for like a couple hours, right?

You may need to go get that coffee. You may need to do, you know, whatever you got to do. So you're doing juve right in the morning? I do it right in the morning when I wake up. And it's actually the first thing I do. I'll walk into my office and I'll do a treatment. And then I go into doing body alignment. And when I say body alignment, because I'm a firm believer the body needs to be balanced.

And so many people would be surprised how many different functions their body's impacted because their structure's off. What do you do? What does that mean, body alignment? Body alignment. So what I mean is like most people are stuck in an exterior interior pelvic tilt. And so when you do that, either your butt sticking way out. And then what that does is that can put a lot of pressure on your lower back. So what is the biggest issue with people in pain in America is low back pain.

I mean, everybody. And I talk about that from experience. I'm 30 years old. I started experiencing back pain in 2018. Never been like, what the hell? I've always gone to the gym. I've always done this. How is this happening to me? And I figured out as I took, I went to an agascue clinic. They specialize in body alignment and they took photos, et cetera. And they're like, well, we know you're in pain. Like your hips twisted, you know, you got your

hips or your, your hips are turned one hips higher than got your hips or your hips are turned. One hip's higher than the other. One shoulder's higher than the other. And you're in a pelvic tilt. Like I was literally leaned forward. My body was pulling me that way. And so think about what happens then as we age, then if we don't address those issues, right? Next thing you know, we're not, we're not active. I can't, I can't go run anymore. Oh, well then you stop working out. Right. And the next thing you know, you're, you're 60 and you're, you're, you're really hunched over. I think that dramatically impacts your body. Cause we've all seen those people that are, you know, in their eighties and nineties. And you're like, I can't believe they're 80 or 90. They always look good structurally.

Don't they? They always do. Cause I believe the first thing that falls apart is your body alignment. Basic stretching. Basic stretching and stimulating. And what I mean by that is like when we sit all day, there's muscles that our brain loses connection to. We forget they're there and they don't work. And so a big issue for me personally was my left hip flexor was firing. My right wasn't. So it was always tight because it was always taking all the demand. So it's simple things like that, where it's like, wish they would have taught you,

taught you that one in school, right? There you go. Okay. You know, this is your life, you know, trying to figure out optimization from a... And I talk to a lot of people too. Like, you know, you'd be surprised how many people, you know, connect with me and wanting to learn about light. And then I hear about what they got going on, you know, and then I see it. What are some of the other, um, ancillary, I know this isn't straight down your strike zone, but what are some of the other ancillary things that you've been interested in? Um, breath work, I'm really starting to investigate a lot. Um, I've heard a lot of good things on nasal breathing specifically, and there's a little,

a little things I've done to improve breath work has actually helped my endurance training. Um, just, just calming my heart rate down and breathing in a pattern that I, that it's like comfortable for me and trying to do more nasal breathing. I can't remember where I heard this. It was on another podcast, but it was like, you get actually a lot more air into your lungs, nasal breathing. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's reasons why we should breathe through our mouth like when we're talking. Yeah. We need to, you know, and there's reasons for it.

But if I'm pretty clear from the research and the folks that I spend time with that nasal breathing is the way to go, you know, and what is the cadence you're working on? Is it like, uh, for me, a double exhale is something I spend most of my time thinking about. So like a, like a 10, 10, 20, 10, you know, like. It's probably something like that. I haven't even, I haven't gotten that deep with it yet about like a pattern. This is when I'm like running and I'm on, let's say I'm running like a six 30 pace mile

and I'm trying to just keep, I try to do a little balance of like um with a little mouth and nose i can't i'm not as advanced to just breathe through my nose and i'm running it's super it's super hard especially if you're when i was training for that uh ocean stand-up paddle i did the ultra is that brian mckenzie super switched on on breathing he's like listen go out for training today and a lot of times they would do things coaches would say okay i want you to do these times these types of um sprints or times or reps or sets whatever and he's like yeah i just want you to go out and go as hard as you can but stay in first gear in through your nose out through your nose and then for x number of minutes

just stay up up at a clip a high clip but you have to exhale through your mouth so in through your nose out through your mouth and let's just let's call that a day because like highest threshold when you're doing this thing right is in and out through your mouth because you're like gasping yep yep but if you can have a sense of discipline you know to work your way up to that then there's some efficiencies that take place for sure yeah and you're going to be able to train more yeah well that's the idea your heart rate's lower and everything and that's that that took learning you know when you're you're younger you're like hey i just got to go beat the shit out of my body at the gym five days a week right and you think that's what it takes but really like the building

takes place when you're sleeping yeah right physically and psychologically yeah both yeah both there um there's some really interesting research around um breath holds and panic so long exhales long holds can trip a wire in our brain about panic a la panic attacks and so panic attacks are in a pretty intense form of anxiety and so if you pull down one level that breathing with long exhale long holds is actually training people to do better with anxiety maybe even staff it back or push it back or inoculate it at some levels so there's really interesting stuff around breathe breath work as it relates to anxiety probably helps you get into uh shifting into a parasympathetic i imagine that that's got to help

then well what it actually does we think is it just damps down or tamps down the sympathetic so sympathetic is the gas on yep and the para is the relax rest digest and if you can suppress it's not quite the right word but just damp tamp down the sympathetic it gives parasympathetic a chance to activate which is the rest and digest full circle back to uh your product i when i first got it i ate i had dinner and i was super geeked about it and i ran outside and got on juve uh on your product and dude it did not my meal did not sit right and so i was like it was like i had some bloating going on and i thought what is this and i liked it i liked it because i was it wasn't my meal but i liked it because i'm like some shit's working like i'm not sure i'm gonna ever do

it after a meal again yeah but like something's working there it's really interesting yeah have you heard that before i haven't heard that specific but i nobody's smart enough to eat and then go stand in front of a light yeah okay. But I just did actually – it was just last November. They're actually starting to make connections that this light affects the gut microbiome. So that's what I'm saying. It's cellular level. By all said and done, we will be able to prove that red and near infrared light affect nearly every aspect of the body in one way or another. And this is a really interesting study of somebody that has, um, that had type, uh,

had diabetes. And I think they, they deal with, they deal with that can deal with like the neuropathy in the swelling in the feet. And so in this specific study, they radiated light on the wrist in the artery there, and it relieved the pain in the ankles. See, now you're taking it too far. Well, this is – so now you've crossed the tripwire for me. But I'm joking. But, I mean, the body is amazing. It is amazing. It's amazing.

I guess what I'm saying is, is we're still wondering how this creates a systematic effect. And we're talking about increased blood flow. And now we know that there's mitochondria free floating in the bloodstream. So if you're, you're maybe amplifying and giving those free floating cells, they can then help where it needs to help. It's maintenance. And that's why I like to say balance. And I don't want to say, oh, homeostasis and all that. But it really is a balancing act. We just talked about parasympathetic sympathetic.

You need to have a balance with that. If you're too parasympathetic, you're not going to get the stuff done you need to get done. And vice versa. I would say awareness is really important. Is knowing when you're sympathetic dominant today or for an hour so that you can do something about it to course correct because you're right now i don't know 200 years ago it was a different game maybe more like 500 i don't know it's just a different game now i'm not saying it wasn't stressful 100 200 400 500 a thousand years ago so i'm not saying it

wasn't stressful then but the chronic on that we have right now, I don't think that our brain has adapted properly. So ancient brain, modern times, trying to sort out modern challenges. I don't think we know how to handle this thing right here. Cell phones. Yeah. I don't think we know near,

I think in 25 or whatever many years they'll think you just gave this like kids and you let you do it. Yeah. Yeah. How long has this been around about 10 years handful i mean how long was smoking around before we knew something was bad with smoking is your phone really like all red i tinted i take the try to take all as much blue out as i can well the blue's okay there's some blue it is okay but for me i i work on a big monitor yeah so i'll so you don't want extra i don't want too much yeah i'll i have to wear like day blockers yeah to mitigate some of the blue

otherwise it just gives me a headache well at night eliminating at night that's a big deal for sure yeah are you are you learned about light in general meaning the value of particular bands of white light as well yeah i mean i and i say blue light. I'm glad you mentioned blue light. Cause that gets, that gets way over-marketed that it's the, the, the bad guy, right? Stay away from the blue and stay away from that. Oh, there's a purpose to blue. There is. And I'm, and here's a, here's a nice fun little fact about the sun. When when when those blue wavelengths get through in green once they make to make it through the atmosphere they resonate with hydrogen and they literally go push and they shoot out through the sky that's why the sky's blue because they because they resonate and they shoot out did not know that it's pretty cool so there's a purpose to blue

light to make our skin our sky blue let's make our sky blue also it it keeps our uh it keeps our us on our rhythm yeah that's right it stimulates if you want to go scientific it it resonates with a gene in our eye called the melanopsin gene and helps stimulate cortisol and so that's that's that's what we know of which is a stress chemical yeah and it also suppresses melatonin which we're familiar with you know which is the sleepy kind of feel. You got it. The chemical. So, all right. Yeah, it's the amount of artificial blue that's a bit of an issue. And what I guess what you're saying to me right now is I just don't need more.

So I just put a red tint. I get enough, man. Look at the sky. It's bright enough out there. Yeah, I get enough. Okay. And then, so let's spend a little bit more time on the brain. What are some other brain findings that you're saying? I'm geeked on this or science is a little wonky or solid science is solid about this with the brain. What are some?

So I can share, I'm not as familiar in that specific, but I can share some good stuff. There is one, it's what they've seen is the neuron can actually penetrate through the skull into the brain. And it can be very anti-inflammatory. And so people that have had, let's say, a head injury, it's shown to help heal that quicker. People with post-traumatic stress, it's helped improve that. Folks with Alzheimer's and dementia you can find studies with improving their symptoms and memory and cognition there's studies to help increase learning um uh can you load me up with some of these yeah some of these and then we'll

put them in in show that'd be a great idea yeah because i've read i'd say i read a lot of them but i'd like to just kind of bundle a few of these because well, you just hit some pretty cool ones. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's take a look at some of those. Okay. Awesome. Eyes open or eyes closed? I do it eyes open. You know, it's, it comes with the intensity. So our current, our gen two, which is the device you have that you can keep your eyes open, right? There's no, there's no, there's no issues we do with our generation three. Um, that's, that's now on the market that you need to have. Uh, we have to have eye protection. It's extremely still low risk, but our intensity is, is higher.

So a benefit to that is you don't need to be six to eight inches close to the panel. You can be now about two feet back. Oh, so it's like hanging out on the wall for a little bit and you don't have to. Yeah. So you could do yoga in front of you. You could do stretches in front of it. You could set it up by your computer. With your sunglasses on. Well, yeah, with them on.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. So you're on G3, Generation 3? Generation 3. And we're super excited about it. You know, there's a couple of new features on it. One. And we're super excited about it. You know, there's a couple of new features on it. One would be, we're talking about nighttime lighting. There's

an ambient feature that you can, it'll, you can go into the Juve app and it'll lower the intensity of the LEDs. So you could have it on as nighttime lighting. Cause a lot of people would like the lighting of their Juve at night, you know, cause it was very calming to them. So they would turn it on. So that's a great feature. And also we have another feature we're very excited about called recovery plus mode and recovery plus mode is, um, where you're going to get continuous wave red light. So like normal, but the near and for it is actually going to pulse at you. It's going to go on off and you're probably probably shaking your head like, why does that matter? Well, we're pulsing at a frequency that is similar to the frequency of your own body. So your cells,

there's a couple of different theories of why this is effective. They've proven that it's very effective and it's actually more effective than continuous. One of the main theories would be it's not so harsh, right? It's going on off. So it's giving yourselves not too much at one point. So it can handle another potential theory for that is that it's, it recognizes it. It's a frequency your body recognizes. So imagine like a Morris code, it picks up on, it's like, Oh, we know what this is. Okay. We, we can take it, utilize it and, and, and, and work. And so that's a new feature that's, that's added and you still can do that can, you know, the, the regular red and near and Fred that, you know, that you've been doing, but now there's this recovery plus,

and what they've seen is it's, it's helped increase, um, verse versus continuous wave. Um, it's, it's increased healing and recovery quicker. So that's why we call it recovery plus. Oh, cool. So you're, you're actually using data and some research to suggest that this might be a better, you bet an upgrade product version or whatever. Okay. Yep. Um, what, tell me about saunas, near infrared saunas and red light saunas. Probably the biggest question we get of what's the difference, right? And it's a good question because when anyone's familiar with infrared, they think of an infrared sauna. And easiest way to explain it is in an infrared sauna, that's primarily mid and far infrared. So those are very long wavelengths that primarily generate heat. That's the mechanism

of those wavelengths on the human body. They generate heat. So they're putting a stress on you, right? And so if you're giving the body heat, it's going to sweat to keep itself cool, right? You're going under stress. Red and near infrared light is the exact opposite where it's giving your body energy. So a sauna putting you under stress, utilizing light, putting stress on your body and near infrared and red light is giving yourself energy. So they're, they're both very beneficial therapies. Just, just different. Okay. Cool, man. Awesome. I love what you guys are doing. Yeah. You know, I think, uh, you're on the money with a trend about staying inside about, um, which is an unhealthy trend, you know, and, and offering

a solution that is non-invasive. Um, you know, actually, actually, how do you answer this question? Am, am I, are you just, am I just buying some light bulbs? Like how do I know that this is like, is it, is this bullshit? You know, like how do you answer that skeptical kind of... I think that's an important question because that's how I first looked at this therapy when I first heard of it is I said, that's bullshit. Like, you know, I can't heal my body with light. And there's a couple different factors of why you can't go stand in front of Christmas lights per se.

Because I think people have tried. One, you got to make sure it's the right red wavelength, right? It's gotta be, it's gotta be in that specific band. That's been, that's been clinically proven and it has to have the right intensity. So you can't, so that would be like you rule out Christmas lights, right? They're not going to have that same intensity that, that you need. Um, and then three is, is like a treatment area. If you're going to, if you're going to spend time treating yourself, you don't want to have something so small, moving it all around your body, right? You want to get the biggest bang, bang for your buck when you're doing a treatment. So those are

three big things to look at. And, and one last one for one for Juva is all the independent and certification of testing that you got to go through to make sure a product is safe. We go through quite a bit of testing from testing the eyes to how it impacts the body. And so you don't just want to radiate any type of device on you. You want to make sure it's very safe and has been clinically tested. And that's what we do with our products. We make sure they're the safest possible. What are some of the hoops or assurances that you can give folks that you're doing that work? So you want to check and make sure a couple of things. One, that it's independently certified, like the wavelengths and the intensity. So you don't just want to go buy a product because they said it delivers this power and it does this. If they don't have any testing,

that's a big, big, big red flag. Another one you want to make sure that they've done like IEC testing. So testing for the eyes. Is this safe to put on my eyes? A lot of these companies since we've started, I want to say there's been 25 copycats. Are you a first mover? Yeah. You guys are a first mover? Yeah. You guys are a first mover? Yeah, that's what I thought. Yep. Yep.

And we've had, Jesus, it feels, it's a lot. It's like 25 to 30 companies that we've seen pop up. Some of them will just go down and then there'll be another one up. But yeah, we are there. You know, there's been a lot of fast followers, fast followers and you know, that that's good help, right? You want to establish a market, but also that can be very reckless with not knowing the science, you know, with, with Juve, we have so many scientific advisors. We rely on opinions that have been in, in the field, done the research, know the specs, and can help us with that and

guide us. These other companies look and just try to match, you know, oh, they're doing this, let's just do it. And we see it. We'll make a change and we'll see five to six, seven other companies, like with a snap of a finger, now they're doing it. And they don't even really know why. So yeah, you know, that's the difference is we, we pioneered the at-home use and, and, and the panel. And, and we're, we're doing everything we can to perfect it and make it the safest it can be. I love what you guys are doing. I think you're really onto something important. And what do you recommend? Do you recommend people start with a full panel, a couple panels, one of the little table lights? Like where do you, where, where do you think people would benefit starting all of the

above? Yeah. It depends what your goals are. You know, some people want it for just a quick recovery. Let's say they want it just for you know, for, for small targeted treatment. So like soft tissue injuries, let's say you're a physical therapist. You want it for soft tissue injuries. You'd probably use like we have a, the Juve go, which is a handheld device, about as big as a cell phone. And then we have like a mini that's, I'd say it's as big as a laptop, um, versus the panel you have is more of a full body. So it depends on what your goals are. If you're looking to really get the biggest bang for your buck, you ideally do a device that's the size of your own body. That way, boom, you can go into a treatment and be done. And we have different products that can

do all of that. And our system is modular. So what I mean by that is you have a solo device, you could buy more solos and add to it. And you can do it over time. So really, like the best advice for folks, if they're looking to invest in it one i would say get more sun like don't if you really want to start get out and get more sun first the challenge i have with that though is like so i get sun in the morning so i'm avoiding some of the uv but then i'm lathered up with um sunscreen throughout the day when i'm outside you know and i'm not i don't love sunscreen and you're totally clothed too yeah and I'm outside, you know, and I'm not, I don't love sunscreen. And you're probably clothed too. Yeah. And I'm clothed, you know, and, but I don't love sunscreen for like a lot of the environment and whatnot, but also like, I'm, I'm going to take care of my skin.

It's really, it's one of the largest organs, you know? And so like, I'm going to take care of it that way too. So, but anyway, so you're saying get more sun and I'm saying be mindful about some of the, yeah, get, get more sun. And then if you, if you're like, Hey, I want to invest in one of these panels, um, start where, where you can, you know, if you can jump in and get one of our full body systems, absolutely. That, that would be the biggest bang for your buck. But if you want to start with a mini or a solo and then build out over time, you can definitely do that. Lots of people do that. And that's the beauty of our system is you can start where you best feel comfortable. And then once you start seeing results more often

than not, we get people coming back to upgrade. So that's the beauty of it. You don't have to get penalized for, Oh, I was skeptical. So I got a mini. No, you can buy additional devices to create, you know, the system that, that you and your, your whole family uses. Cool. I want to see you guys win. And so, you know, I'm stoked to talk about it with you. I'm enjoying the product and, um, yeah. So where can people find you? Um, you can go to juve.com. So that's www.joov.com. And there's a couple of places I'd like you to go there. Um, one, I would go to the community page, just see what people are saying, see who's using the product, go, go check it out, go, you know, we'll have, there's Instagram posts there. You can go right to live feeds of

what people are saying and go take their word for it. Don't, don't listen to me on here. Um, I don't know anything. Uh, so go to the community page the community page and then go to the reviews page and go see what people are saying. We've got a healthy amount of research there as well. Yeah. On your site. Yep. Yep. And that's the thing.

Our science page is very, very well done. And just to establish this with folks, there's been, I believe, over 5,000 clinical studies completed on red and near infrared to date. If you go to PubMed and you're that guy or that gal that wants to do more research, go to PubMed and do a couple of searches. You will start drowning in the research that there is available because it's pretty remarkable. And it's spreading even quicker because, like I just said, they're now seeing the gut microbiome and they're now seeing other areas of the bias. So it's expanding so quickly. Um, and it's just remarkable. So those are, those are some places I would go mindfulness trainings while you're on Juve. Yeah. Because I'm stacking those together. And so I'm doing a little standing meditation while I'm getting some exposure.

That'd be a good idea. I'd love that. Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah. All right. Cool, man. All right. I appreciate you.

Thank you. Thanks, man. It's awesome. All right. Thank you so much for man. It's awesome. subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show.

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