Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Why Stoicism Matters Today | Ryan Holiday

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Ryan Holiday, the bestselling author of The Obstacle Is the Way; Ego Is the Enemy; Conspiracy and other books about marketing, culture, and the human condition. His work has been translated into over 30 languages and has appeared everywhere from the New York Times to Fast Company.His company, Brass Check, has advised companies such as Google, TASER, and Complex, as well as multi platinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world. You may already be familiar with Ryan from his previous appearance on Finding Mastery a few years ago (episode #43).Ryan is a proponent of stoicism and in this conversation, we discuss what led him down that path and why the underlying philosophy is so important to him.As Ryan puts it: “A Stoic doesn't control the world, but they control always how they respond to the world. So it's a really great philosophy if you're doing something ambitious. If you're a leader or an athlete or a poet or a politician, it's there for the stresses of life.”_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. What I think is interesting in stoicism is that there's this tension between the ambition and the values, right? So if you're not an ambitious person, you're not feeling that tension, but if you are, it really hits you because it's giving you a sense of, of like what being great at something really is being great at something is not just being talented. Like when you read meditations, you're reading this guy, who's the ruler of the known world, like the most powerful person on the planet. And he's having this conversation with himself about all the ways that he needs to constrain himself. Don't do this, do this. You

know, what's important. You know, he says, just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn't matter. You know, he says, no, one's going to remember you, you know, a hundred years from now, none of that matters. Like what matters is what you do. And so there's this kind of like self-talk element, this kind of self-regulation that I think anyone who is going places or is watching their life trajectory take off, it really helps root you. Like I remember in my twenties having this sense of like, okay, I've been chosen for these things. I'm in rooms or meetings or have responsibilities that are totally inappropriate for my age. So if I don't have some counterbalance, I remember thinking like, I'm going to spin off the planet.

And most young people with potential, whether they're number one draft picks or startup CEOs, most people crash and burn if you get those things early. And I think stoicism really helped me as a sort of a guiding philosophy, the kind of an even keel, which I needed because I wasn't naturally that way at all. Okay, welcome back. Or if you're new, welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. Now, what does that mean? That means that these conversations are about the inner life. And it's really about people who are committed to both their craft and their inner life, those that are on the path of

mastery, so that we can better understand what they're searching for, how they use their mind, how they develop a psychological framework to excel in life, both from a meaning and purpose and flourishing standpoint, as well as how they sharpen those mental skills to be able to perform in the most exact, the most stressful environments. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind in a disciplined, organized, thoughtful way, this is just a quick little reminder here to check out the online psychological skills training course that I created with the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll. And what we did is we just pull back the curtain and show you all the best practices to help you train your mind, not only to flourish, but to be able to live a purposeful and meaningful life.

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with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Ryan Holiday, the bestselling author of The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, Conspiracy, and a handful of other books about marketing, culture, and the human condition. And his work has been translated into over 30 languages. It's very cool. And it's appeared everywhere from the New York Times to Fast Company. And his company, Brass Check, has advised companies such as Google and Taser and Complex, as well as

multi-platinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world. You may already be familiar with Ryan from either reading his books or from his previous appearance on Finding Mastery a few years ago. It's episode 43, if you want to go check that out. And Ryan is a proponent of Stoicism. And in this conversation, we discuss what led him down that philosophy and why the underlying principles are so important to him. And as Ryan puts it, a Stoic doesn't control the world, but they control always how they respond to the world. So it's a really great philosophy if you're doing something ambitious. If you're a leader or an athlete or a poet or a politician, it's there for the stresses of life. And with that, let's jump

right into this week's conversation with the legend, Ryan Holiday. What's good, Ryan? Not much. How are you? Yeah. Where are you on the planet? So I live right outside Austin, Texas, like 30, 40 minutes outside Austin, Texas. So we live on like a little farm and then I have a small office on Main Street in this tiny town. What brought you to Austin? I've lived all over. I'm from California. I lived in New York because I thought that's where writers are supposed to live.

I wrote my first book when I was living in New Orleans. I just wanted, I liked living somewhere cool and different. I didn't want to live where everyone else lived. And I also found that the more out of the scene I am, like, you know, the writing scene or the entrepreneur scene, the more I can sort of focus on being motivated by what I want to be motivated by. And the less, you know, like professional competition or jealousy or, you know, what is so-and-so doing, the less that like plays into my life. The question that I want to understand is like, what are you trying to do with your life efforts? And you've had a massive impact there. And so, but I want to know like the

deep part is like, really, what are you trying to do? And then, okay, that's cool. People can put words to that. It's a big question, but then like, how do you, how do you organize your inner life? And like, where do you, how do you organize your inner life? And like, where do you come from? And some people come from an anxious place. They come from a place of abundance. Some people come from curiosity. Some people come from just a scratchy edge. So I want to get all of that, but set the context, if you will, Ryan, like about early life. And I don't want to get too lost on it, but I do want to understand what was the dinner table like? What was the kitchen table like? You know, what were conversations like? What was the family structure like? Because I think it's really important. childhood stuff because I found that it was affecting my professional life now more than I wanted it to be. I came from what I would describe as two very normal parents, normal in

the sense that their professions were very normal. My mom was a school vice principal. My dad was a police officer. Grew up in the suburb of Sacramento. There's this joke that California is the only town from the Midwest located on the West Coast. You know, it's Sacramento is like an American, you know, normal ass town. So, you know, none of our, none of my parents, friends, or my friends, parents were entrepreneurs. No one was writers like they had government jobs or they were real estate agents. You know, they were like normal people and professionally. So so I think for me, I I think it was pretty clear early that I wasn't a fit for those things that like I so so in, whatever vibe someone sort of gets when they see like a, a six and a half foot tall, 16 year old, and they go like that person should play sports, you know, like I ha I think I, and I'm realizing this in retrospect, I think I cut a weird presence like in the schools that I went to in my own family, like I didn't, I just didn't really fit. And it was sort of like, I was, this was, this was not my space. And I, and I, and I

felt that growing up, even within my own family, that like, there was a personality, like wavelength that we were not on the same one of. And so that, that, that sort of, as I think more about my childhood, there was this sort of, there's this prevailing sense of like, not, not living in the same universes. Did you feel like an outsider looking in? Did you feel like you belonged, but not really, or that you didn't belong, you needed to find a different community tribe, something. Yeah. I felt like I didn't belong. And, but then there would be moments where I'd get a certain teacher or a certain person, or I'd connect with a certain, whether it was music or writing, I'd connect with something and be like, oh, that's like,

that's where, so I had this kind of hit, I wasn't like a great student. I wasn't a bad one either. But then there would be like a certain teacher who would be like, oh, this kid is like destined for things. So there was this sort of weird experience where to a lot of like it was sort of most of the time the prognosis was not particularly ambitious or positive, but then there would be like one teacher out of the blue who was like, had way, way, way higher expectations than I could conceive of given the limited sort of set of possibilities that I was surrounded by. So it was a weird experience. You and I had something similar in that. And so below average student, you know, and always got back, like, doesn't understand his potential, like talks too much, you know, that type of thing. And still talking too much in this conversation, aren't I? Yeah. So yeah, that's cool. So I want

to double click on that. When people saw you and saw something that you couldn't see in yourself, how you responded to it, because I think that you can go a couple ways you can, you could ignore it. You could think that's crazy. That's scary. You could think that they say that to everybody and minimize it. Or you could like almost let it soak into your pores. Like, well, what is that? Yeah. I remember I had an 11th grade honors English teacher and I went and I, I asked for a letter of recommendation for, for USC, which I did not get into, uh, probably had had zero chance of getting into, but I asked for a letter of recommendation and, and this English teacher, and I found the letter somewhat recently and it said something like, uh, there is zero

doubt in my mind that Ryan will be a major literary voice, uh, in his lifetime or something like that. And, and it was like, I think what was so surprising to me wasn't, it wasn't even like, like, I didn't, I don't even think I had any conception that I would be a writer. And this person had like the idea that I would be not just a writer, but a professional writer and of some significance. And it was, it was like, it felt like it came out of nowhere because it was the exact opposite of what I got at home and from most of my other, so I think my parents kind of had a sense of like, what are we going to do with this kid? Like, I remember, I remember when it was time to look at colleges, my parents, you know, most parents, like, you know, at the school I went to is like, okay, you should take the SATs.

Like 90% of my class went to college. So it was like, hey, the wealthy parents were like, let's pay for SAT prep or whatever. And my parents were like, I remember my parents signed me up to take the ASVAB test, which is the test that you take to pick your position in the military. But it wasn't like, hey, you could be like a general in the army. It was like, I don't know, maybe the military will know what to do with you kind of a thing. And so there was this weird sense of, there was this weird contrast, particularly in my late teens. And then when I went to college where like my parents kind of maybe thought I was like a dud or something. And then my, then these people, whether it was teachers and then later, like real writers, I would meet writers I would meet were like convinced

that like they discovered someone who was like going places. So that was a really weird adjustment period for me in my early 20s. Yeah, that's a major shift. Did you fight that I'm a dud or did it get in there and start to affect your psychology? I don't think I internalized that I was a dud, but more it was just like it was just a painful process to be in a family where your family isn't rooting for you because your family thinks that you're a problem. And what was weird is that like, and I would certainly get it if I was like a legit black sheep or whatever, like I was getting in trouble, but I never really got in trouble. I was just, it was just, it was more like the potential was right below the surface and my parents couldn't see it, but it was quite obvious to everyone else. So as soon as other people saw it, then I was able to see it in myself,

but then it creates a dissonance because you're like, wait, your parents are supposed to sort of unconditionally love. Your parents are supposed to have completely delusional understanding of your, uh, at a delusionally positive understanding of your potential. Uh, and then to have the opposite be the case was, was that was, there was a weird dissonance there that took a long time to sort of sort through. And how, how much are you editing right now? Because your mom and dad might be listening or, and how much of you is like, no, listen, it's, it's about the truth for me. I would say I'm being say I'm being like 60%.

I would say I'm giving you about 60%. I'll give you, so like as an insight. So I went to college for two years and in the middle of my sophomore year, I started meeting these different writers. I was writing for the college newspaper and I would meet these different writers. And I got an internship with one of them. And then I got a job as a research assistant to Robert Green, who, who I know that, you know, and who I think is like one of the best to ever, ever do

what he does. And so towards the end of my sophomore year, I got the, I was asked, Hey, what if you didn't go back to college and you worked, you did these things? It was like, you know, it's like the equivalent of being like, you know, a two and done player in my profession, like the chance to work for Robert Greene was, you know, life changing. And I remember I told my parents that I was thinking about doing this. And I totally anticipated that, you know, no parent wants their kid to drop out of college. I mean, that's like you worked your whole life. You've already paid it. You know, expenses have been paid. And I even get from a like a very human perspective, like nobody wants to be the parent at the the barbecue that has that has to go, yeah, Ryan's doing great. I mean, he just dropped out of college. Like I totally get all the factors that were acting on their sort of fears about

this. But I remember my father sent me an email, my parents. So I talked to them about it and they reacted very negatively on the phone. And I remember I sent them an email and I said, look, this is why I'm doing this. Like, look, I under, I don't expect you to understand. Um, but like, let's not, let's not like, uh, let's not do anything. We're going to regret here, you know? And my father sent me an email that was like, you have to see this from our perspective. We see our son, he's throwing his life away. And it was like this list of everything that I'd ever done that made them convinced I was obviously going to fail and that this was a huge mistake. And that basically that I was like the worst son ever and that I was doomed and destined to fail and regret this in the opportunity of my lifetime. And so it was, you know, it was it was a terrible experience in the sense that

I was 19 years, you know, I was 20 years old, I was about I was doing the most terrifying thing that I'd ever done in my life to pursue the thing that I'd become convincingly clear was the task of my life. And my parents weren't just not being supportive, which would be one thing. My parents decided that this was an attack on their identity and that, and, and that, that, that attack wounded them. So, so in such a soft place that they, they needed to attack me as like a human, like at the exact most vulnerable moment, my parents like sort of completely, uh, failed in their parental duty. And so there's been moments like that. So if I'm being really honest, it was it. That's that's what I continue to struggle with as a parent myself, because it brings I think I thought I got past all of it.

And then as as my kids have grown up, I mean, our grandpa, a four year old is the oldest. All of a sudden you start to have some sense of like what your obligations are to a defenseless kid and what you would never do to them. So, so that's, that's sort of what I've been thinking about. Yeah. The models that we work from, you know, this is where I think you and I have a really fun overlap is like, what is the framework that you're, you're working from, and I'm working from and somebody listening is working from and how can we expand or enhance or understand deeper, the model that we're working from, and your path is nonventional. Just that sounds like, you know, your home life was, you know, just that. And so can you do like chapter headings of your life?

And however many chapter headings there are, but just in a word or two, a phrase, kind of hit the early ones. And then because you've got marketing, you've got writing. And so if you could hit the early life and then kind of into the professional life, that'll just give a frame. Yeah. So the early life was, went to an okay school on a scholarship, you know, sort of got kind of discovered as a writer and as a, as a sort of a, like a whiz kid basically. And so I had this experience in my early twenties where I worked at a, I started a new media

department at a talent agency. I was researching for this great number one New York Times bestselling author, and then ended up running the marketing department at this sort of up-and-coming fashion company called American Apparel. So I was kind of this like 20s college dropout, like rock star thing in my field, you know. So when I talk to like college athletes, I very much relate to where they are, where you're not like necessarily like a global household name, but you're like of the couple hundred or thousand people who do what you do, you're in the small pool. So I was sort of in that. And then I got, what I really wanted to do though, was be a writer. And so at maybe 24, 25, I started making the transition towards writing my own stuff. I wrote my, my first book came out when I was 25 and was a bestseller. It was this sort of

provocative book about, you know, sort of the dark side of marketing. And it got all sorts of media attention and stuff. And then I, I basically done a book a year since then. And I've ghostwritten a bunch of stuff. I've worked with all sorts of cool people, but I kind of had these different chapters of like whiz kid writer, marketing guru, that was all culminating towards the last few years where the books have, you know, become this kind of flywheel, you know, selling in all these different languages. And, you know, I get to go cool places and talk to cool people like you. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family,

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and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. How much has stoicism played a role in your life? And maybe you can give a flyover for a working definition for one of the beautiful philosophical positions. Maybe you can give a flyover there. And how much has it played as a central tenet in your life? And did you become interested and write about it and then it became a central tenet? Or was it prior to that, that you're on it?

And then you said, you know what? I should write about this. It's more the latter. So when I was in college, I went to this conference. I was writing for the college newspapers, doing what I was telling you. And Dr. Drew was actually the speaker. And I went up to him afterwards and I said, you seem like really smart. Like, what book should I read?

And he told me about Epictetus, one of the Stoic philosophers. And so I read that one and all the Stoics, and it was this sort of life-changing moment in my 20s because I had ambition and I had talent, but Stoicism is sort of a set to philosophy, but I would argue it's more like a way of living. It's kind of a set of obligations, like a code. Maybe it's similar to like a samurai code or something. It's a prescription for how a person should be. And it was popular in ancient Rome, primarily with ambitious people, whether they're the emperor or a senator or a playwright or something. My kind of definition of Stoicism is like a Stoic doesn't control the world, but they control always how they respond to the world.

So it's a really great philosophy if you're doing something, right? If you're a leader or an athlete or a poet or a politician, it's there for the stresses of life, but it's kind of its four virtues are courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And I think I fell in love with Stoicism as giving me the kind of guidance and support and mentorship that maybe I really desperately had needed early on my life, but hadn't gotten. So I kind of rushed in and filled this void that maybe I would have otherwise gotten somewhere else. Yeah.

So I can see your family upbringing, what you just described, and the natural falling right into groove with stoicism because stoicism in a psychological frame is about agency, right? And agency is a fancy word for like, you know what? You co-create, you know, you have a say in how you experience your world. High agency means you have a sense of efficacy, a sense of esteem, a sense of capability to navigate the world around you. like, yeah, okay, listen here in alignment with these four tenants, here is a way that you can think about how you can optimize your way of life, which is your response. Your responsibility is your response. And, um, but it's not willy nilly. It's not like respond however you want. That's why one of the, the tenants is temperance. What I think is interesting in stoicism is

that there's this tension between like the ambition and the values, right? So, you know, if you're not an ambitious person, you're not feeling that tension, but if you are, it really hits you because it's giving you a sense of, of like what being great at something really is. Being great at something is not just being talented. Like when you read meditations, you're reading this guy who's the ruler of the known world, like the most powerful person on the planet. And he's having this conversation with himself

about all the ways that he needs to constrain himself. Don't do this, do this. You know what's important. You know, he says, just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn't matter. You know, he says, no one's gonna remember you, you know, a hundred important. You know, he says, just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn't matter. You know, he says, no, one's going to remember you, you know, a hundred years from now, none of that matters. Like what matters is what you do. And so there's this kind of like self-talk element, this kind of self-regulation that I think anyone who is going places or is,

is watching their life trajectory take off. It really helps root you. I remember in my 20s having this sense of like, okay, I've been chosen for these things. I'm in rooms or meetings or have responsibilities that are totally inappropriate for my age. So if I don't have some counterbalance, I remember thinking like, I'm going to spin off the planet. And most young people with potential, whether they're number one draft picks or startup CEOs, most people crash and burn if you get those things early. And I think stoicism really helped me as a sort of a guiding philosophy, kind of an even keel, which I needed because I wasn't naturally that way at all. I know how much you like Marcus Aurelius. I don't. I mean, I love this Stoics and Stoicism. These are fighting words.

Yeah. These are fighting words. I know, I know he's your guy. Give me a pass because, you know, he's not my guy, you know, and I, and I'll tell you why though. Right. And so let's, I'm happy to spar with you and, and because you're, you are, you because you are a truth seeker. And so I have the highest regard for that about you. So I love how Epictetus frames the world. I love how Seneca frames the world, both Stokes. But when I get down to Marcus Aurelius and I read meditations. One, I find it really clunky to read, not because I can't follow the thread, but I have to get past this, knowing what he did and how many

lives he took and how he was responsible. Like, I want to hear how you justify that. I mean, do you just compartmentalize it that it was Rome, it was a different time? So we're talking about sort of two things here, and I want to address both of them because it's very important. So let's talk sort of philosophically first. The reason I think you're resonating more with Epictetus and Seneca is that Seneca and Epictetus are writing what Stoic philosophy is. They're making philosophical arguments. Marcus Aurelius is writing to himself and would be mortified that we have ever read meditation. So it'd be like, if Russell Wilson wrote a book about his football philosophy, that would be one thing. If we got to see the mental exercises that Russell Wilson was saying to himself on game day over a period of

time, some of that would be very valuable and some of it would be so incredibly specific, specifically addressed to his flaws or his issues or the individual circumstances that he was facing in that game, that it would be quite hard for, unless you were totally aligned, it wouldn't resonate the same way that even Marcus Aurelius writing his Stoic philosophy would be aligned. So it's an unparalleled historical document in the sense that it was never intended for publication. And it's not even a journal in the sense of like, here's what I did today. It's really a set of aphorisms and a philosophical process that the Stoics undergo where you write about what you're struggling with and where you're weakest. So it's just so oddly unbalanced and specific that it just doesn't

work for some people. So I would say that's number one. Now, if we want to talk about the historical Marcus Aurelius, I would completely disagree with your characterization. So Marcus Aurelius is considered the last of the five good emperors of all the history of Rome and the history of sort of absolute rulers, which, you know, it wasn't a thing that Marcus chose. He's rated pretty high. Cassius Dio, a Roman historian, writes, of all the people who ever held absolute power, Marcus Aurelius did perhaps the best job. And I think that's what's, to me, that's what's so incredible. I'll nerd out for a minute. And I just did a kid's book, sort of a fable about Marcus, about this specific thing. But what's incredible about Marcus Aurelius

is that Marcus Aurelius is one of the only kings, if we just call a king in all of history, the title of the book is The Boy Who Would Be King. Marcus Aurelius is one of the only people to ever hold absolute power that did not seek it in any way or inherit it. So, you know, most kings, either their father was the king or their mother was queen or some long royal lineage, or in the more Machiavellian sense, they seized power, right? Marcus Aurelius was just a relatively normal upper-class Roman boy who began to show potential at a young age. And the emperor Hadrian doesn't have an heir, and he's an old man.

And he, for some reason, senses that there's potential in Marcus Aurelius. But he also knows that the worst thing you could possibly do to a young person would be to give them absolute power. So Hadrian adopts an older man in his fifties named Antoninus Pius, in turn obligating him to adopt Marcus Aurelius. And they set in motion a sort of a crash course in leadership and philosophy and successive offices to prepare Marcus Aurelius to one day become emperor. And I think they think this process is going to transpire over a few years because Antoninus is old. Antoninus lives for like another two decades. So Marcus spends two decades in the wings training for power until he

eventually gets it. And we know, you know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. That doesn't happen. He's not, and he's not only not implicated in any like palace coups or machinations for power. I think the most incredible statement you can make about Marcus Aurelius' character is this. The first thing that he does after becoming emperor, so he spent two years waiting. He's now named the supreme ruler of the entire world. There's this tricky thing, which is that he has a stepbrother. He has an

adopted stepbrother because of this complicated thing. And so, you know, we know what would happen in Shakespeare, right? You got to kill this guy. The first thing Marcus does with absolute power is that he names his brother, his stepbrother, not even his real brother, his stepbrother, he names him co-emperor. The only time this has ever happened in the history of kings. He names, the first thing he does with absolute power is he shares half of it

with someone he's not even related to. So anyways, I would very much disagree with the characterization of Marcus Aurelius being really even complicated as a ruler. I would argue is probably the closest ideal to a philosopher king in the history of the world. It's good. I appreciate your take on it. I think maybe where some of my biases were when I did some studying around, I was undergraduate, I was influenced by Jesuits and kind of their take on a deeper understanding of periods of time and laws and rules and kind of where things come from that we assume to be, oh, I don't know, everyday practices, you know, like, oh, I don't know. Why, why do we, why do we eat fish on Fridays? You know, why do Christians eat fish on Fridays? You know, like, where's that really come from? You know, what were the biases in those decisions? Who owned the wharf at the time? Like,

you know, like dig a little bit. And so, so one of the things, and maybe, maybe I understand that the last five of the good emperors, I understand that piece and the benevolence in his brother. I don't understand the other complications that might be associated there, but I do know that. Like the persecutions of the Christians and things? That's the bit that you saw exactly where I'm going, you know, which is, so I was influenced by that. Not, I came to my own conclusions there. It's not like somebody led me down that path. I was like, whoa, like he, you know, he did some stuff now. And listen, I'm not defending the acts of the Christian faith over, or the Christian religion over history, but, or even modern times, but I, there, there definitely, it is a footnote about the number of people that, um, he was, you know, uh, conscripting for persecution. And so now that's why I was wondering if you're like, okay, listen, you got to turn a blind eye. It was Rome at that time. It was like, I'm not like, I think I, I've written about, you know, the

Roman understanding of slavery being a huge black mark, which is particularly interesting because Marcus Aurelius is sort of philosopher inspiration is Epictetus, who's a slave. There's also, you know, Marcus Aurelius never questions, for example, even just the existence of an emperor. He could have restored Rome to being a republic. He never seems to question passing it, even though he's not an heir to the throne. He passes the throne to his son, Commodus, who's as bad as Joaquin Phoenix plays in the movie Gladiator. So there's lots of flaws. And I think we can discuss where some of those come from. The Christian persecution is very interesting because the Christians begin to be prosecuted

from basically inception in the Roman empire. And there are periods where it's particularly egregious. And then there are periods where we're not quite sure how prevalent it actually was. From my understanding and my reading, this isn't like, you know, Nero basically burns Rome to the this is where Marcus's flaw comes in. So Marcus's philosophy teacher is this guy named Junius Rusticus. And I'm probably getting way too nerdy for your audience, but his philosophy teacher is this guy, Junius Rusticus. This is who introduces him to Stoicism. In the way that Dr. Drew gave me a copy of Epictetus, Junius Rusticus gives Marcus Aurelius Epictetus from his own library. And we know this because Marcus thanks him for it at the beginning of meditations. Epictetus, was he a student of Epictetus?

We think either he had a copy of the book or this is his own notes from attending. And Hadrian himself had attended classes of Epictetus as well. But anyways, anyways, Junius Rusticus is the, is this sort of like, let's call it the number two Stoic in Rome under Marcus. And he's, Marcus gives him a job as the emperor, as the, as essentially the mayor of, of Rome, the city of Rome. And Justin Martyr, who had studied Stoic philosophy gets sort of implicated in this scene as a, as a Christian and is brought up on charges for, like, we have to understand that in Rome at this time, the Roman gods were almost not a spiritual part of life, but a civic part of life. Like, you were obligated to worship certain gods and perform certain sacrifices. These were almost civic rituals inside the city. So it was illegal to worship different gods. And it was certainly

illegal to reject those gods in pursuit of some other god. So the idea of religious freedom was inconceivable to the Romans. And so anyways, the story I'm telling is that Justin, who we now refer to as Justin Martyr, comes up in a case essentially for heresy in front of Junius Rusticus. This philosophy teacher who's taught Marcus all about compassion and patience and wisdom and truth and equality, all these things. And he just profoundly fails. You can read. That's what's so fascinating is the interplay historically between these groups. You can read like basically the trial transcripts of this event.

And you can see the rigidity of the stoicism, the sense of like a job of the citizen is to follow the law. You know, the job of the philosopher is to be obedient to the gods. You can see where the conservatism of the Stoics there in Rome, there's this concept of the mas morium, the old ways, the ways of our ancestors. There's an inherent conservatism in Stoicism that protects the order, the ways of our ancestors. There's an inherent conservatism and stoicism that protects the order, the status quo. The problem is that status quo and that order in an empire like Rome was inherently unjust in many ways. It had many broken, flawed assumptions. And so what I think you see in the prosecutions of the Christians, and again, we don't know, is it one Christian? Is it 10,000 Christians? We don't know the extent of it, but one, we know it's one, at least with Justin. It's done almost out of a mistaken sense

of duty, right? That this is what I must do as a ruler who's trying to keep order and peace. And so I think the persecutions of the Christians and some of the inability to question slavery, let's say, some of these things that we see in Marcus, to me, are fascinating ways of exploring the way that one's ideology or sense of duty, if not constantly questioned and put up for reflection, becomes quite rigid and almost becomes dogmatic and then becomes a sin as much as it's a virtue. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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slash findingmastery. I think I still can't move off of that piece and not from a judgmental piece, but I think the answer that you're getting to is the context. It's the context of the time. And he didn't necessarily know better on slavery or how to re-rail the persecutions, which is like, again, no critique or judgment. But then when I read meditations, I'm like, again, no critique or judgment. But then when I read meditations, I'm like, oh, brilliant. And I go, okay, I see him struggling. That's cool. And I

go, but wait a minute. We're in a tricky moment as a society because on the one hand, one has to look unflinchingly at history and look at the flaws and the weaknesses and the mistaken assumptions of the people of the past. And it's like, you know, to look at the terrible evils that Thomas Jefferson was complicit in. I was going to bring him up too. Yeah. Like slavery and, yeah. You have to do this. And to not do it is to is to betray what the study of history is. Right. History is not propaganda. It's fact. And you have to study it if you want to learn from it. At the same time, I think we've picked up this weird thing lately where and we're doing this now, even with like people in our own time where we want to hold people accountable for or hold them to a standard which was inconceivable at their time. So what I try to do with a Marcus or a Winston Churchill is I try to go, you know, compared to their previous

generation or compared to their contemporaries, where did they sit? So like we're struggling with this in California where it's like, let're struggling with this in California, where it's like, let's tear down statues of Abraham Lincoln, because Abraham Lincoln, although he freed the slaves, did not inherently believe in the equality of the races. Well, to me, the problem there is, if you want society to make progress, you have to support and celebrate people who made advancements in their own time. The idea that you would expect them to share all your assumptions and all the progress we've made, I mean, even now, to hold Marcus responsible for not understanding the importance of freedom of worship is quite strange given that that wasn't that that's not even a concept that's conceivable governmentally for like 1700 more years you know what i mean like

the idea of of separation of church and state that's not just like that wasn't just like a revolutionary idea at the time. That was anarchy. That was, that was, that was to literally scorn the gods, right? I mean, the founding story of Rome is a, is a story about the supernatural, right? So I guess when I look at historical figures, I try to go, did this person move the ball forward? I'm not saying that I overlook what they did. I think you actually have to study it. And what I'm fascinated with, with Marcus are these moral failings, because that that that's, that's, that's work we have to do as individuals on ourself. No one just comes out born magically

with all the right assumptions. Was he did he get better? Did he like, did he adopt the prevailing norms of his time completely? Or did he struggle in his own way to move them forward? And I think it's indisputable that he did. Thomas Jefferson, not just a slave owner, but Thomas Jefferson is like a monster, does horrible things with his slaves. And yet his understanding of inalienable rights advances the human race hundreds of years and provides the framework through which Martin Luther King, who is as much a founding father of America as Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln too, managed to help realize in a literal way that Thomas Jefferson was only thinking about in the most abstract sense. That's cool. I appreciate your take on it. Soapbox over. No, no. That's why I want to have the conversation with,

I wanted to understand your take because I know how much you appreciate and have been a student of Marcus Aurelius. And, um, there's just, there's just that couple asterisks that, um, I can't quite work with, but I can't quite work with the same with Lincoln as well, to your point. I'll give you another great example, something I wrestled with in meditations. So at the beginning of meditations, Marcus thanks all the people who've formed him into who he is. And there's this one section he thanks, he learns this from a mentor or something. He says, I'm proud of myself that I never laid a hand on one of my female slaves. Right? So what I think is so fascinating, this embodies the exact tension that we're talking about. So what he's saying is, look, it's commonplace in my time, if you own a slave, you would just, they were your property and you

could do whatever you wanted with them. And he's proud of, he knows that that's wrong. He knows he finds that to be wrong, but he finds it more wrong in the lust sense. Like he wouldn't give himself over to his appetite. So this is where temperance comes in. So he makes some minor moral progress there, but he's limited by the paradigm of his time from questioning why a human being should be able to own a human being at all. And so I think with all these people you want, to me, when I study that, I don't see any value in saying like, Marcus Aurelius is fundamentally flawed because of this, let's cast him out. What I instead try to go is, okay, what assumptions do I have in my life? What progressive

views do I have in my life that have moved forward a little bit from my parents' generation, but 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, a thousand years from now are going to seem woefully inadequate. So I think the other problem, I don't want to call it cancel culture, but this sort of rush to dismiss people, to remove them from the canon because of this or that, like when you look at Churchill and you go, oh, Churchill did this, but then what about the Bengal famine? You know, I want to go, what's my metaphorical version of that? What evil am I complicit in? And I want to focus in making those changes in my own life rather than feeling superior by making a quick historical judgment

of a person who's long dead. That doesn't accomplish anything. Tearing down a Marcus Aurelius statue doesn't accomplish anything. But learning from that example, being better myself, that does accomplish something. Very cool. And then when we take a look at some applied principles that have been material in your life and material in the lives of folks that you help, what are some of those applications that you found to be, and I don't mean just principles, but like ways, well, let's start with the principles, but ways that you apply certain principles. And, you know, there's certain, there's really simple ones like the, oh, who did it? Stephen Coveney, the circle of concern and circle of control, like that type of exercise where you just list all the things that are, and I talk about this all the time as an oversimplified,

but very profound framework, which is what is in your control, okay. Anything that doesn't make it in this small, little, tiny circle, it's just kind of noise. And so let's double down on working on mastering the things that are in our control and be true to that. But that takes a fundamental decision to orientate your life that way. So I want to strip down to some of the first principles, whether they're Marcus Aurelius' or Zeno's or whoever, like, you know,

meaning one of the founders of Stoicism. What are some first principles for you? And then how do you practice some of those first principles? Well, that's the circles of control you're talking about. It's probably one of the first first principles of stoicism epictetus says our chief task in life is to discern what's up to us and what's not up to us so that's a big one you know xeno um xeno talks about this is a tricky one sort of you know we think like the stoics were like there's there's there's things that are up to things that are good things that are bad then there's things that are good, things that are bad, and there's things in the middle that they kind of refer to as preferred indifference.

So like as a writer, let's say, to write a bad book, to fail at my job, that would be bad, right? To try really hard to become my best, to accomplish what I'm trying to do creatively, that would be good, to fulfill my creatively, that would be good to fulfill my potential. That's a good. But then for the Stoics, the interesting thing was, well, then where does material success from that profession come in, right?

Is it bad because it's not in our control? Is it something we should try to make in our control? Or is it kind of in a gray area in between? And so for the Stoics, this idea of preferred indifference, not E-N-C-E, but E-N-T-S, preferred indifference, success, like hitting a bestseller list was something that it's nicer to have than to not have, but it's not in and of itself good, right? So this idea of like, that there's things that are up to us, things that are not up to us, and then things that are like, okay, to enjoy when you have them, to me is like a foundational

understanding of Stoicism. The other big one from the Stoics is also Zepictetus. He goes, it's not things that upset us. It's our opinion about things. And I remember I talked to the Pittsburgh Pirates a few years ago. They have some version of this quote like on the wall in the locker room, not even realizing that it comes from a Roman slave 2000 years ago. But the idea that like events are objective, and then we make up things about the judgments is about them is really important. And I had a therapist once, it sort of got me on the habit of, of like, for instance, like, you know, you go, what I make up about that is, right, that expression, to me is actually the essence of stoicism. It like the market is, and then we make up about it, that it's a bull market or that it's a bubble or that it's a bear market or that it's a depression. These are words that we put on top of things. Things just are a game. A game is a game. The announcer says it's a blowout, right? The announcer says that it was a hard one match. It just was. And our opinion about it determines so much of what we take it

to mean. If you were to help to prepare an athlete, you know, for an Olympic games or a Super Bowl or world championship, how would you approach it? Would you approach it? There's two basic ways. Is that it's just another game. Control what you can. Or would you approach it on the other side, which is, A, there's more cameras. There's more hoopla. There's more, more, more, more.

Get ready for the more. And treat it as a more contest as opposed to, no, same dimensions, same weight of the ball, same, same, same, same rules, you know, same consequences as any other game. How would you, how would you help prepare somebody for seeing something as being big or something as another opportunity? You know, I was thinking about this last night because you and I talked yesterday for my podcast and I was taught, we were kind of talking about philosophy and psychology and sort of where they fit. I think the really, the really lucky thing about what I do is that I just get to write about these ideas sort of in, in abstraction and, and

I don't, I don't coach people. That's like, that's not what I have to do. Right. And I I'm, I'm in awe of people that have to go, okay, how do I figure this out in this specific situation for this specific person? Even your languages are like, have to those people that have to, you know, like you want no part of it. I get it. That's awesome. I don't even know if it's, I want no part of it, but like, that's not my competency. My competency is, is being able to tell a story. Like ideally it's like, what I would do is like tell a big story about this idea and then hope this is what a writer does. Then hope that the person gets the lesson out of it themselves.

Right. I didn't have to spit like as a writer, it's one to many, right? Whereas often with what you do, it's one to many in a team, but it's usually also sort of one to a person who then affects many. But I think to go to the specific question of like preparing for a game, is it tune it out or focus on it? I think what I love about stoicism, and I love this about Robert Greene's works too, people often, the criticism they try to make of Robert Greene is they go, but Robert, law number two says X and law 37 contradicts X. And there's a Zen, I think it's Zen or one of the Confucian philosophers gave advice to these two brothers. And again, this is what I'm saying. Instead of answering your question, I'm just doing a general thing. And you take the point from it, but he tells one brother, like, you know, you have to stop drinking.

And then he tells the other brother, you have to start drinking and loosen up. And the third brother says, you know, how your advice contradicts itself. You gave opposite advice. And he goes like different people, different advice. You know, what, what you see in the Stokes is like, sometimes Marcus is like zoom way in, get so specific, you know, like look at this in the smallest possible increment. And then like 10 passages later, he's saying like, zoom out, take, take 10, the 10,000 foot view, like, see how small this is, see how little it matters. And so I think one of the things that stoicism really is, as opposed to being like, here are the 10 commandments of stoicism is it's really a framework for kind

of manipulating the mind to get what you, to get to the right response in each situation. So sometimes, and maybe the same person for the same game, they need to, you know, as they're training up for it, you know, not, not take it too seriously. And then 20 minutes before game time, you know, switch lenses and view it the other way. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that kind of cognitive flexibility is more artistic, if you will, like play, you know, try things out, figure it out, like what works for you, and adopt different psychological projections, if you will, about what something means, and then check into your responses, you know. And so do you have any particular habits that you are working right now that are meaningful to you? Like just like habits or routines in my life? Yeah. You know, I've got, like, I've got a couple, you know, a morning mindset training. The way I wake up in the morning is, um, I want to wake my body naturally is going to wake up, but I want to wake up my mind. I want to wake up my heart, you know, like, so I've got a little process there,

but I'm wondering what are some habits, routines that you're finding meaningful for you right now? Yeah. I've talked about this before, but my, my big part of my routine and kind of why I live out where I live is, um, so I wake up early, which isn't is by choice, but also inevitable given how young my kids are. But my, my first rule is I don't touch the phone when I wake up in the morning. So I did two hours this morning before touching the phone. So it's awake as a human being for two plus hours before touching the phone. And what did I do in those two hours? I went for a long walk with my kids. So I was outside for an hour, just sort of doing kind of a walking meditation, talking, spending time together. I spent some time with my journal.

I made my lunch for the day, took a shower. And then I went to my office to do my writing. And I had a virtual talk I had to give this morning. So, but I, I, there's a great thing I heard from Tim Ferriss where he was saying like make before you manage. So I try to do like the creative tasks or the deep work task. I know, you know, Cal, I try to do that before I do the other crap, you know? So, so those, those are some big, for me, it's about like setting the morning up to be successful, doing the important things as early as possible with as few distractions as possible. And, and sort of working myself up to get into the headspace to do, you know, maybe only an hour of writing today, like an hour of writing a day, like I wrote for about an hour today at an article

that I'm working on. I did that. And that's, that's like, that's, that's a successful day, I accomplished that little task that I had for the day. Do you run on the side of anxiety or the side of depression if you were to have to pick one? I would say that the pandemic has made it very clear to me how much anxiety is a force in my life. And then how do you wrestle with that? Because anxiety, there's two basic types, right? Cognitive, which is an excessive worry that's becoming problematic. And then somatic, which is like, I just feel my body and it's just tight and tense and anxious and whatever. And so, and you can have some interplay between the two, but how do you work with it? I would say it's definitely the second one more than the first one. I'm not like catastrophizing. I think writers are often kind of live in a fantasy world anyway. So I'm like, my wife is the one who's like, you know, I did the research and these are the 10 things we have to be worried about with a toddler, right? Like that's not my world. My world is more like this talk is at 1045 and I'm already running 15 minutes behind

this morning. And then I want to do this and I want to do this. And then I want to have time to get in the right headspace. And now all of a sudden, like, I just feel stressed because like, I have this thing that's in the future that, uh, is, is looming larger and larger on the horizon. Do you know what I mean? And so I felt like not traveling, not going to meetings, not going out to lunch with people, just like radically simplifying, like the amount of things that I have to do in my life. Like I'm so much happier. My relationship with my wife is so much better. I like people more

because there's just less like stressful things that I can have the anxiety about. Why do people care so much about the opinion of others? Do you know about Rene Girard? Do you know the philosopher Rene Girard? Keep going. So Rene Girard has this idea. And I learned about Girard from Peter Thiel, the founder of PayPal and the first investor in Facebook and started this company Palantir. I wrote a book about him a few years ago, but he studied under this philosopher named Rene Girard at Stanford. And Rene Girard popularized this idea called memetic theory. And memetic theory basically says people don't know what they want, so they just want what other people want. And the source of all conflict in the world is essentially from this ignorance and then

this sort of lazy heuristic of like, well, other people think this, so I'm going to think this or other people want this. So I'm going to want it or other people don't want this. So I don't want it. And so I think one of the things like to me, a lot of caring what other people think, and Mark Sturis talks about this in meditations. He says, you know, we care about our ourselves more than other people. We're self-interested and yet we care about other people's opinions more than our own. I think often we lack the confidence to go like, I think X right about where the economy is going about what like, think about coaches, uh, not going for it on fourth down as often as statistically they should go? What is preventing

them from doing that? These are people paid millions of dollars. These are the most competitive people in the entire fucking world, and yet they won't do it. And it's primarily because they don't want to be judged by other coaches or announcers after the game. Right. And I think to me, one of the most impressive things about, uh, coach Carroll is after that super bowl, you know, he makes that call, uh, and it doesn't work out. And, you know, he's just like, Hey, I thought it was the right call. You know, it didn't work out. I thought it was the right call. He didn't throw anyone under the bus. He didn't really even throw himself under the bus, right? Like you could go two ways. One way you'd be like, hey, I didn't throw the ball.

You know, it's not my fault. Or you could go, ah, I so screwed up. I shouldn't have done it. Obviously everyone's right. You know, he was just kind of like, hey, I looked at the numbers. You know, I made my best decision and I'm sticking to it. You know, I, so to me, a confidence, and that's what I'm working on in my life is just like, like I told you about my book with Peter Thiel. I think it's my best book. It didn't sell as good

as my other books. It's sold well. It's been turned into a movie. It was successful by any objective measure, but I'm, I actually remain proudest of that book. And I almost do it as a philosophical exercise. I remain proudest of that book because when I wrote it, I was most happy with it and it most accomplished what I was trying to do with it. And I'm trying to get to a place in my work where you can't tell me whether a book was a success or not. In fact, no one can. I decide that. It's cool. I mean, that's straight down stoicism right there. Yeah, straight down the lane. Yeah. And I want to double click on that. Like, are you a philosopher, a stoic philosopher, or are you an applied stoic practitioner? But let's start with keeping it real first.

I don't really know what that means. And I am hesitant to embarrass myself with some philosophy about a phrase that I don't think very much about. But I do think about this idea of Stoic philosopher, because there's a couple of things here. So one, when you write about stoic philosophy, people say you're a stoic philosopher, or they say, you know, you're a stoic. And, and to me, those are tricky. Those are tricky things because the stoics that I write about, I admire so much and their lives. I'm so in awe of them that it feels really weird to just like put myself in a club. And, and I was like that with writing too, you know, do I get to call myself a writer? Do I get to call myself an author? At what point does one earn these things? But I feel like,

I feel like as a writer, I've gotten there, you know, in my mid thirties to call myself a stoic philosopher, that feels weird, you know? So I, Iirties to call myself a stoic philosopher, that feels weird, you know? So I, I just, I just prefer to have no label, but there is an interesting discussion in the introduction of one of the great translations of Marx's really is by Gregory Hayes, which is my favorite one. If you thought you think it's clunky, I would check out this translation by Gregory Hayes. But anyways, he, he notes that the word stoic does not appear anywhere in meditations. And he takes this to mean that perhaps Marcus himself doesn't identify as a stoic, but instead, if you asked him what he was doing, he would say, I am studying philosophy. He's not

even studying stoic philosophy. He's just studying philosophy. And so I do try to, I do think that's an interesting way of thinking about it. I consider myself a student of stoic philosophy. To me, it's not to me, it's like maybe you can identify as an entrepreneur, but to call yourself a serial entrepreneur, it's like, that's weird. Just like the hall of fame decides if you're a hall of famer, you know, I think there is some,

some thing that it's best left to other people because it's not really that important anyway. And would you be a student of Marcus Aurelius? You know, like there's a, there's always a clear or interesting lineage in philosophy. Like would you, even though he was second century, right? Was he second, second century? And I think there was a it's breakthrough. And then, and then there's other moments, you know, there, there's, you know, a resurgence of stoicism in the, in the mid 18th century, you know, George Washington and, and Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson dies with a copy of Seneca on his, on his nightstand. But, but I guess what I would say is that in Marcus's time, like one was a Stoic or one was an Epicurean or one was a Cynic. But I think as historically as these have all just become tools in a more complete toolbox or a toolkit. So I think to identify as this one or that one

to me seems unnecessary also. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then if you could think about yesterday, when we were talking on your podcast, we talked about Alexander the Great and Aristotle. And so Aristotle, just for history, Aristotle predated Stoicism. And Aristotle was a student of Plato, as the kind of history goes. So it would be fun for you to talk about that story just for a moment, but then it's leading to the question in my mind is like, if you could shape the ideal way of living for you, and I don't mean from a philosophical standpoint, but I mean from a practical applied standpoint and in reference to what we're about to talk about with Aristotle

and Alexander the Great, because that's what I want to get to. Like, are you living it? Or is there something next, like getting on with a quote unquote Alexander the Great? So maybe just talk about that story just for a moment. Alexander the Great is the son of King Philip and King Philip, as was the sort of tendency all throughout ancient history, you have your kid and you go and you get the smartest man in the world to be their instructor. So Aristotle is Alexander's teacher, just as Seneca later is Nero's teacher. And it's this fascinating, and Rusticus is Marcus's teacher, just as Seneca later is Nero's teacher. And it's this fascinating, and Rusticus is Marcus's teacher. And so, yeah, it's fascinating. The wisest man in the world was the mentor to the most powerful man in the world. And I guess when I look at Alexander the Great, I see him

kind of through the lens of the Stoics, which is with a certain sense of pity. This was a man with insatiable appetites who murders his best friend, you know, slaughters thousands of people, gets all the way to the edge of the world. His men are ready to go home. And all he wants to do is keep going. And so I tend to see Alexander the Great as a cautionary tale. And you see that just, it's hard to read the Stoics and not think of, you know, Alexander the Great as kind of the villain. So for the Stoics, one of the towering Stoics is Cato, Cato the Younger, who is the mortal enemy of Julius Caesar. And there's this great observation in Seneca where Seneca says, every age has its Caesar,

right? Every age has the most ambitious, power hungry, you know, talented promotional person, right? You know, every age has its Donald Trump. Every age has its Adolf Hitler. Every age has, every age has that person, not to compare those three, but you get what I'm saying. Every age has, has the person, every age has its Bill Gates, every age has its Warren Buffett, right? Every age has its Tom Brady, the person who's the best there ever was at their thing and who have an insatiable hunger inside them to achieve and to achieve and to achieve. But he says, so every age has its Caesar, but not every age has its Cato. And Cato was this man of immense moral rectitude and commitment and patriotism and conservatism in a way. But but he's the one when Julius Caesar says, I'm going to make myself dictator.

Cato's like the only one who says no, like, no, that that's wrong. And I'm radically simplifying. But the point is, I love that idea that who's actually the greater man, right? One is more famous. But and then again, to nerd out about Cato, there's this there's there's there's lots of statues of Julius Caesar. But Cato, even in his lifetime is asked, you know, why aren't there more statues of you? And he says, I'd rather be the kind of person that is asked why there are not statues of you than the kind of person who there are statues of. And I'm not saying that I'm in any way in that league. What I'm saying is that I'm trying to live, I'm trying to be really good at what I do, but I'm trying to be as well adjusted as possible within it and per my own sort of code and

priorities and life, as opposed to this sort of just unchecked pursuit of success for its own sake. So my question about Alexander the Great is that Aristotle went on tour with him to the edge of the earth and was like, that was his guy. And I'm wondering if you would ever want to do something like that. That's a great adventure. And I'm not sure Aristotle had a choice, but it is a great adventure to go to the edges of the earth, whether that is the frontier of human performance or potential in a specific domain, or to be partnered in a companionship with one of the quote unquote greats of today and, you know,

be his or her Aristotle. Like, is that of interest to you at all? Sort of. So one, no, no one's asked, right. No one said, you know, no, no presidents or world leaders have said, do you want to, do you want to come be my advisor? But I, I have made a lot of decisions in my career. I mean, I was the director of marketing at this publicly traded company, American Apparel. And a big part of that, it was lucrative. It was challenging in a lot of ways. It was ethically a bunch of other me to watch more of a Caesar than a Cato sort of not just do what he did, but destroy himself in the process. And so one thing I've always been conscious of, and I think a lot of philosophy students and philosophers screw up, is that you're not just supposed to sit in your office and think about the world. You have to go out and watch people. Like one of the best things that I've liked about my books, Making Their Way Through Sports, has been the opportunity to go watch different kinds of elite performers

in their environment. There's this fascinating story about one of the Stoics. I think it's Posidonius. There's this famous Roman named Marius, who's this sort of tyrannical, insatiable, just like awful man. He was the only man to be basically co-president of Rome seven times. He had the most consulships. And Posidonius goes and visits him at the end of his life. And he watches this like horrible man die a miserable death, not like physically painful, but just he watches him slip into kind of insanity. And he sees all the man's vices on display in this vulnerable moment. And this shapes his philosophy that if he'd not been in the room, we would have lacked

that insight. And so there is a part of me that has enjoyed being in the room. And I have some interesting, I've collected some interesting friendships. Some people are very well respected. Some people have done really bad things and have reached out to me for whatever reason. And I weirdly sort of maintain that ongoing dialogue because it's shaped and informed a lot of my understanding of the world. I want to learn from their mistakes and also from their genius. So I think if Aristotle was rationalizing why he went on this murderous expedition with Alexander,

it's probably like, look, the dude was going to do it anyway. You know, I might as well, you know, see it in action. Yeah, remarkable. you know, see it in action. Yeah. Remarkable. What are some of the favorite, most influential cultures, locker rooms, professional sport or otherwise company, maybe places that you've been that you're like, wow, they're on it. Like they've really got something special. I think it's this. I had this weird experience where I'm fascinated with the Patriots. The Patriots are the first professional team, I think, to read my book, The Obstacles of the Way. That's actually how it, Mike Lombardi is the one who gave it to John Snyder at the Seahawks. So it was this weird thing, but I'm fascinated with the Patriots

as an organization. And I remember I went out there, I talked to some coaches, I didn't meet Belichick or anything. And then I guess it was not last March, but the previous March, I spoke at the NFL owners meeting. And which was like the craziest audience that I'll probably ever speak out of my life. I mean, it's all the owners, all the GMs and all the coaches. So it's like a minimum of 30 billionaires, uh, plus, you know, uh, all the coaches and then all, all the GMs and then some other staff and then all the, all the spouses. Um, but anyways, um, afterwards and I, afterwards, I went up to Bill Belichick who I saw kind of like Stan, like it was interesting to watch then all the coaches socialize afterwards and see their different personalities and to watch sort of Belichick talk only

privately with his, with his with his partner, not you know, like that's clearly the, he sees himself as an outsider, even in the league, which was interesting to watch the different personalities. Um, but I went up to him afterwards and he showed me, um, the notes that he'd taken during my talk. Um, and it was, I mean, like I've been studying him and writing about him. I mean, there's two chapters in the ego is's enemy about Belichick and, and it was watching like, Oh, what really makes these coaches great. And I had the same experience when I spoke at Alabama. Um, the first person to ask a question, I actually didn't know this till afterwards

because you know, the lights are sort of shining at you. The first person to ask a question after my talk at Alabama was Nick Saban. And so watching these people who are the absolute best, not just in their craft, but like of all time still maintain, even at an old age, a hunger to learn, um, from people who like when, when I, when I came out and visited you guys and I spent a few minutes with with coach carolyn's office like he was asking me questions as if like it shouldn't have been the other way around do you know what i mean so i've been i've been humbled and inspired by like just the real hunger to get better and learn and how simple it is uh at that level for these people that I think maybe most outsiders assume are just like fully formed geniuses. God, no. It's a radical scaffolding

of ideas in the most simple, practical way. And it is a commitment, a fundamental commitment to add on and to hold sacred the core foundational truths. And at any point in time, even in the most sacred way, like, whoa, maybe that truth was wrong. And so it is awesome in those ways when you're around those folks. Look at Saban this year. I mean, Saban was for his entire career, basically a defensive powerhouse. And then to just be like, Oh, in like my 50th year of coaching, I'm just going to reinvent myself and be the best in the world at, as an offensive program. I mean, that's just,

a company can't do that. A country can't do that. I mean, that's just, that's just un unbelievable, but it comes, you know, I think the other thing I've, I've, I've really loved from sports is, and you get this in the military too. There's a profound earnestness that it's actually missing in the rest of the world. And that earnestness is the source of the growth. General Mattis has said cynicism is cowardice. Right. So like when LeBron James is like, you know, I just let my team down or, you know, he's like, that wasn't me. Like, I just got to thank God for this one. Or, you know, he goes like, I just got to focus on what I can control. You know, I think sometimes people think that they're just being simple for the media. But I've been or, you know, they talk about like the growth mindset,

like they actually like sincerely believe in these incredibly simple, almost cliche concepts. And it's actually that belief that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The earnestness is the source of the growth. And thinking you're too good or too talented or that it's too woo-woo or ridiculous, that's actually the impediment to growth. Yeah. There's, it's rare, but I've been involved with, I'll call it, um, negotiations on growth, you know, with some that are like, I don't need anyone on this team. I just need me to be great and we'll win. So there's the other extreme, which is like, Whoa, what is, what is that? And they happen to be one of the greats, you know, but it's like, that's, that is so weird, you know? So, um, yeah. So listen, I could go on for a long time. I want to honor your time, say thank you. And then this is a big hitter. Cause you spent a lot of time

with Robert green is how do you think about mastery? Like, how do you define it? Articulate it? Like just some, some thoughts that as you've wrestled with that concept for a long time, how do you frame up the concept of mastery? I think one of the, one of the things where I got really lucky, um, with Robert is that like, I kind of don't even have to think about mastery to me. He just like personifies it. So like, like to, to train under someone who's done what I do so well and so consistently for so long at such a, like sort of a unit at set to such universal acclaim in a way. I don't, I don't have, I don't have a great definition. Cause like, when you say that word, I just think of him in the way that like, if you had, if you had coached under Vince Lombardi, you'd just be like, that's what a coach is. You know

what I mean? But whereas if you'd had to come up on your own, you'd have had to do a lot of really concrete thinking and sort of pick and choose. So for a lot of it, I just kind of think about what would Robert think about and how would Robert do it? And this is actually a stoic concept. Seneca talks about choosing a Cato, like who is your Cato in your life? But I think for me, like I, I, what I love about Robert and what I try to aspire to in my career is like, Robert has written these books that, I mean, the 40 laws of power is 20 years old. It didn't hit a bestseller list for like the first 10 years it was out. And yet it's consistently like top 100 on Amazon, read by people of all, like it's like a top CEO read,

and it's the number one book in the federal prison system. Do you know what I mean? There's a high, low-ness to it. And it's also just as a reader had like a profound impact on my daily life. And so to me, that's like, that's kind of the bar that I'm thinking about. Just like, how do you do something super well, that doesn't necessarily have to be on everyone's radar, but it's just consistently great and endures consistently as well. The world's better because you're Ryan. Thank you for, yeah. Thank you for your time and sharing your insights and wisdoms and doing it gracefully. Where can we hope people go, you know,

to buy your books, to follow along with what you're doing? Where's the right places? Support your local bookstore. You can get the books anywhere. If you want like a free daily email that I do about stoicism, that's at daily stoic.com slash email. And I also do a parenting one every day called daily dad.com. So those would be the two I'd start with. Awesome, dude. That is awesome. Okay. Brilliant. And are the books that you give away, like Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, but what would be the other one or two books that you'd say must reads? I'd actually give away Mastery. I think that would

be a big one that I would give away. The other one would be Steven Pressfield's The War of Art, which I think is one of the great books of all time. And he's like another one of those people that just sort of personifies mastery to me. And I just sort of try to unconsciously emulate. Yeah, cool. Appreciate you, brother. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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