Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Work from the Inside Out | AMA Vol. 21 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: July 22, 2024

Blackjack! Welcome to Volume 21 of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything. We’re back once again with our entertaining and insightful co-host – O’Neil Cespedes – and in today’s conversation, we explore topics like:How to show our kids that we’re invested in their success without pressuring themThe real meaning of “potential” and how to nurture itThe dangers of cognitive bias Finding a healthy level of FOPO, and avoiding FOPO’s dark sideHow to move forward from trauma without looking backWhat it means to work from the inside outAnd so much more…And as always, we have a lot of fun with this. You’ll hear about my regrettable diet as a college student, and what O’Neil learned in his disastrous audition for The Lion King.These AMAs are some of our favorite episodes. Your insightful questions both challenge and inspire us… they allow us to go deeper into the core principles we talk about here… it’s awesome. Keep them coming._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Pressure does not come from the environment. It's the way that you interpret the environment. When there's a thought that calls you or thought that knocks on your door, do you have to entertain it? Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming.

So we're back once again with our entertaining and insightful co-host, O'Neill Cespedes. And in today's conversation, we explore topics like how to show your kids that were invested in their success without pressuring them, the real meaning of potential and how to nurture it, the dangers of cognitive bias, finding a healthy level of FOPO and avoiding FOPO's dark side, and how to move forward from trauma without looking back. So much more we talk about as well. As always, we have so much fun with this. You'll hear about my regrettable diet as a college student and O'Neill, what he learned

in his disastrous audition for The Lion King. These AMAs are some of my favorite episodes. Your insightful questions allow us to go deeper into the core principles that we talk about here. insightful questions, allow us to go deeper into the core principles that we talk about here and wrestling with them. It's a real challenge and we're inspired to keep trying to sort this stuff out in a very tangible way. So keep your questions coming. And with that, let's jump right into volume 21 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. Great to be here with you. As always, it's great to be here with you too, Dr. Mike. I'm trying to get out of the habit of

calling you Dr. Mike and just call you Mike. You can just call me Mike, yeah. All right, good. So let's jump into it. Let's have some fun. These questions are stacked. I mean, they are like, I'm just in awe. I say this every time. I'm in awe of how complicated the questions are. And maybe it's because I'm giving too complicated of an answer because i really want to give you know share the best of my insights here but like i'm i am going to work on being a little more precise really yeah okay okay that's my intention for today's conversation okay so this came from you not me so what i'm gonna do is your friend you are is i'll hold you to that okay okay i'll hold you to that okay good let's do it how will i know when you're coaching me um because i'll be like let's see here i'll be like yeah and when i say that that

probably means i don't it was way too long yeah yeah. Yeah. Or I'm confused. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got it. I got it. That's a code. That's code. I'm in. That way. Thank you.

Of course. I'm here. Speaking of complicated questions. Scott. Scott. Let's go, Scott. This is from my guy, Scott. First time caller to the show.

Appreciate the show and extremely grateful for the book, which is a fantastic read and incredibly helpful. My question is related to the overarching theme of the book, FOPO. Specifically, I'd like to ask Dr. Mike to lean into the often thin line between care of what people think and fear of what people think. My kid is the same age as your son, Dr. Mike, 16. For that generation, self-expression is more abundant and accepted. Young people today are more apt to get a tattoo, dye their hair crazy colors, wear pajama pants out in public, etc. They seem to have less fear of what people think of them. In general, I think this is a net positive change in life and society. But I also see a downside to the fearlessness.

Recently, prior to a sports competition, my son put on a temporary tattoo and painted his nails black. Shout out to your son. Cool. But days later, when he was competing in a debate team conference with other schools, I told him that he needed to get rid of that tat and nail polish. The response? But you're the one who always talks about FOPO, dad. I don't care what people think about it. I don't want to be judged.

I want to be judged on my work. I'm proud to have a kid with no fear of what people think. But how far should that extend? What if the lack of FOPO results in a missed opportunity? I think about my kid and that entire generation interviewing with colleges, entering the workforce, and generally looking for professional credibility and legitimacy. Is that going to happen if you post up in pajama pants declaring you have no FOPO. In sum, could there be or should there be a healthy level of FOPO? I love your grin.

I love your grin. Gangsta question. And to honor my earlier point about the parsimonious precision in my language, I will say, yes, you can have too much FOPO and you can have too little FOPO. Is that it? See, man, I knew you was gonna do this. I knew you was gonna do this. It's not fair, is it?

Can you elaborate, Dr. Mike? Can you say a little more on this, Dr. Mike? Actually, I would love for you to, I'd love for you to take a little more on this dr mike actually actually that's how i i would love for you to um i'd love for you to take a first riff at this i mean the the black nails got you like there was a thing there all the pajama pants all that stuff that i want to be myself i love it i love it i mean you know i think um god let me just try to be honest right now. Because in the past, I'd like to believe that, you know. You know what people say? Can I be honest with you?

It means that the way I hear that is like, what is the percentage of time you're not honest? That's the only thing I hear when someone says, do you want me to be honest? Wait a minute. What percentage of time? So now I know. Now I know. Now you know. Can I be dishonest with you? Can i be dishonest with you can i be dishonest with you yeah um i love how scott's son is i love it but i think as you get older

and you experience the world the way it's constructed and you get left out in the cold you miss an opportunity because, and I'm just using these examples, right? You have black nails or you have pajama pants. I think we discussed this before. I think you can merge the two in a sense. And when I say that, I mean the Bruce Wayne Batman thing, right? The example that we use.

I think you can- Bring that back forward for folks that might not have. The example I use with the Bruce Wayne Batman thing, right? That example that we use, I think you can- Bring that back forward for folks that might not have. The example I use with the Bruce Wayne Batman thing was that, you know, in order, Bruce Wayne obviously moonlighted as this cape crusader, this guy that would go out and just, you know, bust up criminals, but he played the role as a playboy so he could get in rooms, so he could

be accepted, so his moonlighting job could be overlooked, right? But many would argue that the real him was Batman and Bruce Wayne was the mask, right? I think that in some instances, in some circumstances, you have to take the black nails off and the pajama pants and put on the suit. And then, this is gonna sound really crazy, when you get in there, when you're there, right? Make that change slowly, right? And then as time goes on,

you don't wear a whole suit to the office. You come in with a suit and pajama bottoms. Maybe three nails are painted, you know? And before you know it, a year, two, three or so, you're in a full pajama outfit. Your nails are completely painted and you're yourself. I think sometimes you have to give yourself in doses in order for people to accept those great differences. Some people, right? In some circumstances, you can be yourself wholly, but I've learned wow i think i'm just digging myself in a hole here i've learned that i can't be one thousand percent myself in

every single circumstance that i have to do a little game playing a little uh switching so to speak yeah code switching code switching. Yeah. Two cells. And then when you get in and then you start to make your name and start to do amazing work and do what you do, you can be yourself. And then, yeah. When you're describing this,

what is it like for you? Right now as you're describing that, the tactic that you're- I hate it. But you want him to do it? If I'm being honest, I don't want him to do it. Okay. I don you want him to do it? If I'm being honest, I don't want him to do it. Okay.

I don't want him to do it at all. Maybe we just start over? Let's start over. So the guidance you were giving is the guidance that you've lived by. And then, but the cognitive dissonance is that I know how to do it really well.

It's been successful for me. But I wish that others would not have to do that. No. Yes and no. Okay. It's this. In the past, I would 100% unequivocally be myself. I would kick the door in and be me.

Everything about me, I'm wearing it this way. I'm saying it this way. I'm doing this. And I have found that in certain circumstances, it's cost me, it has cost me. So I sat down and had a conversation with myself and I was like, okay, clearly I'm not gonna give up who I am.

I'm just not, I'm gonna be me. And the assumption is that you know yourself? The assumption is that I know myself. Right, you've done that work to know yourself, to have a sense of that. I'd like to believe so. Yeah, not everyone does. Yeah, I'd like to believe so.

So clearly I'm not going to wholly give up who I am, but in some circumstances, I'll make some sacrifices. But the promise I made myself is while I'm making that sacrifice, I'm going to work to be completely who I am in that circumstance. So eventually you're going to get 60% me, but as time goes on,

that 60% is going to go to 100% because I don't want to sacrifice too much of who I am for too long and get lost, right? And in all the circumstances i can be myself i myself you know but i just give you me in doses if you're the type of person or you're or this is the type of situation that's like we are we just can't take 100 what you are or my perception of what i am it's a sales approach turned into a psychological social approach so the sales approach is called foot in the door.

You just get a foot in the door and then you can weave your full pitch. And so that is the tactic that you're suggesting, which is there's no right and wrong. And I think that the important part of the guidance that you're giving is to know yourself and to make a commitment once you're in a room that you want to be in and you're going to commit to being more of yourself

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike.

I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple.

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have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out.

Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com finding mastery. I think that it's just really important to honor that context does matter. And there's different situations, different rooms, different expectations that are just part of the reality of the social fabric that we all live in. Other people's opinions can have great power. And I'm not ever going to suggest don't care about another person's opinion.

That is callous. That is, there's a tone deafness, there's a warped reality when you are completely disconnected from what other people might be thinking. That's not right. I do not think that that's the right way to go. This is all philosophical at this point. I'm not resting on any science. I'm waxing philosophically here. The reason we wrote the book was to be connected to the idea of the cost of worry and most specifically, excessive worry. So caring about what people think is actually part of emotional intelligence, like knowing what another person's thinking and how they're feeling.

It's a really important skill. When you're excessively worrying and because of that worrying, not taking action, that's where the problem is. That's what I'm hoping to point to in the book. I also think there's a case to be made for when you really know yourself that at some point you can't hide it. It's there. And you've done that here. You came in with your black nails and flamboyant blue sweater and all of the cookie monster, whatever. So I don't know if you felt like you, if you use the tactic like, well, let me just be here and make sure that I'm okay in the social fabric. And then I can bring myself forward, which is totally fair. I, I, I think that my son right now, he goes to school in pajamas. I don't think he's ever combed his hair once. I've never seen it.

I'm sure he has once or maybe there's once or twice, but like, he does not comb his hair. Gets out of bed, big old head of hair sticking up in all places. And he's like, I'm like, is that how you go to school? This is he's like, yeah, dad, I like it. And I, I worry myself, like maybe he's going to get made fun of. And then I say, well, okay, he's going to learn how to deal with that too. So I don't think this is an easy answer. I do appreciate the respect for traditions, the respect for cultures, the respect for the social fabric of a room or a place. I do respect that.

Like, I'm not going to go to, I don't know, we'll say a Queen's party or the White House or or some i'm saying some super dignified place in my pajamas yeah i have a regard and respect for the traditions that that institution or those institutions um hold at the same time like we need more freedom in this world not less so i'm all about people's i want to sell i want to be a beacon for celebrating the uniqueness of a person and not saying, why don't you fit in? So I think it's a cool question. Is it Scott?

I'm wishing Scott well. I'd say like Scott, keep supporting the individual nature of the person, of your son, and helping him connect to the fabric fabric of of the the institutions or the the groups that he wants to be part of we are social beings first and we're masking a rating masquerading like we're individual selves we are more connected than we can even imagine yeah scott seems like a dope dad because he's supporting him yet he's asking that question like is that my which i think is dope as opposed to saying hey you're not gonna do that don't do that yeah that's right yeah

that's right i would err on that side as well yeah that's really cool all right next question is from eduardo hola mike and o'neill this is eduardo from mexico city mike on several of the podcast interviews you talk about in the car in the car ride home for the young athlete could you please go deeper on the subject? What advice would you give parents who are excited about the game? What is the best approach to show our kids that we are interested and excited,

but do not want to pressure them? I can relate to that one. Yeah, what was your car ride home with your parents? After sport we're talking about. Well, I meant as a parent. Oh, as a parent. As a parent, yeah. I try not to say anything.

Nothing? Because I am the anti-sport parent because my daughter's mom is the sport parent. So I try to play the other role, obviously, where I'm just like, hey, do whatever you want to do. I don't care what you, you know. The few times that I have talked about sports and like, hey, so where do you want to commit to

or where do you see yourself going? I get obliterated. So I'm like, oh man, even do you want to commit to? Or where do you see yourself going? I get obliterated. So I'm like, oh man, even if I don't talk about it, this is a sensitive subject. So I'm not going to talk to you about anything. I'm just going to be like, hey, so great game. That was amazing. So what you want to eat?

Or, you know, unless you want to talk about it. If you want to talk about it, I'm here for you. But I don't engage in those conversations anymore because they're about time. And your daughter plays soccer. She plays soccer. Do you tell her explicitly that if you want to talk about it, I'm here?

A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. When I'm at my best, it is, the questions are, did you have fun? You know, I love watching the observations or statements. I love watching you try to figure it out. I love watching you work hard. I love watching you be a great teammate. I love watching you observations or statements are I love watching you try to figure it out I love watching you work hard I love watching you be a great teammate I love watching you you know your friends after a mistake I love watching you shake it off I love what you know

so I talk about myself and I'm pointing to the behaviors that I really love watching so I make it about me in that case which sounds weird that's dope yeah that's that's dope a light bulb just went off in my head yeah i love that and it's not obnoxious it's like one or two or three things and then um and then i'll ask a couple open-ended questions to see if he wants to engage and say and the open-ended question that i like for my son and you got to try them out for your daughter or somebody else is is any unlocks for you? And so just that question, usually I get a, no, dad, it was cool. It was a good practice. And I got it. You can hear it. And I don't watch a whole lot of practice, but if I catch the last 10 minutes or something of practice and I see some low effort behavior,

or I see something, or I see something that I know he's been working on that is really awesome, I will ask for permission. So I'm asking my 15-year-old for permission. Yeah, you need to go into detail. How do you do that? Yeah, so again, the first part is how much I love certain behaviors or watching certain things. So I'm reinforcing, subtly reinforcing.

The second part is open-ended. and the third part is asking for permission. The asking for permission, I'll say, would you be okay right now if I shared something I saw? No, dad. Got it, son. You know, right? Like, in other words, he doesn't want to hear, he doesn't want, he's not in the vibe. Like he just gave high effort and da da da for two and a half hours and like and like the last thing he wants to do is get into a family setting and talk about that so okay cool and then so if i'm if i'm really on it i'll say all right cool and i'll give him a when not an if and i'll say um when when would you be open to it? Like before dinner or after dinner? Dad, not at all.

All right, son. Got the message. He's actually said to you not at all before. Oh yeah, plenty of times. To you. Yeah. So you've never flexed on him and been like, do you know who I am?

I work with CLC. Mike Gervais. Do you know who I am? Are you confused? Actually, it's worked probably. So he's playing volleyball and I've worked two Olympic games for U.S. volleyball with the meddling teams. So I actually know the sport a lot, pretty well.

And so it's a different nuance. Not only just know the sport from high school, amateur college, you know, but this is the Olympic where we meddled. Now, do you realize what you just did right there? You just destroyed all hope of any parent. I know.

Yeah. Their kid, because if you can't get through to your kid with your credentials and he plays the same sport that you've, how, what chance do we have? Honestly, like I think most parents are really well intended and they actually don't know very much about the sport yeah like high school and college maybe if you played some college in the same sport that your college can be elite but it can also be

you know like sub elite you know so good but um if you played pros like sub elite, you know, so good. But, um, if you played pros, like you, you've probably got some good command of what it felt like, but then the disadvantage is that for that athlete, for that parent is that not all great athletes can explain and translate what they were able to do. And the frustration, like it's easy to jump 41 inches why are you not jumping when really that's like one percent of the population can do it so sometimes that's a disadvantage um and sometimes the disadvantage is that they really don't know much and they think they do from the sidelines but it's a completely different view like i really parent please listen to what i'm saying um you probably don't know as much as you think you do

in the sport that your son or daughter's playing. And you want the best for them. You absolutely want them to do better than you. You want them to have an amazing future. And you can see some things about effort or what good looks like, but don't know how to help them get better at it, love them. Create space, create a relationship that is gonna endure, that is far longer or far more richer than the transaction of getting better at sport right now.

If you knew what I knew about the path to high performance, you would not be pushing your kid, period. The dark side is real and it's foremost. And so that formula for the car ride, when I'm at my best, I'm not perfect by any means, has that structure to it. That was lovely. Let's just forget about what we said at the beginning.

About which part? About you explaining less and that, yeah, let's forget about that. Forget that the beginning. About which part? About you, you know, explaining less and that, yeah. Let's forget about that. Forget the other. I just got a gem from that. Yeah, yeah. I just keep going with it. That was wonderful.

So you were gonna give me a, eh, but you didn't. I couldn't bring myself to do it. Right. Because I was getting- I was close, wasn't I? I was really close. I wanted to force it on you, but then I would be cheating myself.

I don't wanna cheat myself. I wanna be able to, you know, have that car ride moment. It'd be- Car rides are, yeah, if you get it right, they're awesome. Yeah, they're really good. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus.

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. There is a good bit of science here, and I want to encourage people to look up the dunning-kruger effect and the dunning-kruger effect is there's a curve and the curve is that people who know the most tend to be better learners and ask more questions they don't come off as the expert the ones that know very little the way that they present themselves can be quite dangerous because they don't realize what they don't know. And so they are narrowing in on something or don't understand the complexities of the fullness of it.

And so the Dunning-Kruger is a really nice model to take a look at. And the funny thing about it is that most people don't know where they fit on the Dunning-Kruger arc. And so most people don't want to put themselves to the left. Like I don't really know that much. Most of us don't really know. Like coaches have spent way more time on the pitch observing than most parents.

So be a loving parent, support and challenge your child. Ask more questions than you make statements. Can I ask a question on that? Dunning-Kruger, sure. It's the last thing. So when you say they present themselves in a dangerous way, meaning like they,

they know more than they, than they know, obviously, right. They, they think they know more than they actually know. Gotcha. Yeah.

So that's where you see like somebody who's taken a psych one-on-one course and they're like the most dangerous person in the family. Cause they're like, did you know, you know, and Oh, you're demonstrating. And really it's like, you just read six pages,

you know, or like, so that's where we find ourselves in trouble. That happened to me one time. One time only. I'm going to share something with you. I mean, that was more than one time, but the most embarrassing time. A friend of me, me and a friend drove down from Michigan state university to audition for the lion King. I hear laughing to my left.

I'm not going to look at you. To audition for the Lion King. My friend can sing. He can sing. I can sing pretty good, but I can't sing like him. I can hold it to him. So they said prepare 16 bars of music to sing. I didn't know what 16 bars was.

You know, I'm O'Neal. Yeah, I was overconfident. I thought I could just go down there and just do it. So I didn't prepare any theatrical show tunes, not even a Lion King song. I chose... God, I'm an idiot. My eyes are watering.

I chose Whitney Houston. Of all people, too. What is it? The greatest love of all. No, you did not. You started belting the greatest love of all. No, I go in there. First of all, it's jam- jam packed out there with all these theater people

they can sing and dance and what not and I go in there and I'm I'm thinking the doors are air tight so you can't hear me

you know where I'm going with this right so my buddy's outside he's waiting because he's going in after me so I go in for the audition

and they're like okay you got your you got your 16 bars of music? But I'm like, yes, I do. So I go, so the piano starts playing. I'm like, I believe the children. So I sing this Whitney Houston song, it's terrible.

So they're all just looking at me like confused, like the audacity of this guy to come down here. So the guy was like, first of all, do you know what 16 bars is? I was like, yeah. He's like, you sang, wait,'re saying the whole song he's like the guy just kept on playing out of respect but you're saying the whole song he's like man you gotta make sure you come prepared and you just destroyed me and whatnot i was mortified i was humiliated so i'm trying to like

you know gather myself and pick my face above the ground and put it back together. So as I'm walking out, I say to everybody, I say, hey, guys, guys, just make sure you have 16 bars of music. They don't want you. Just make sure you have 16 bars of music. Right? And so my friend is looking at me like, ugh. And so as I walk out, he's like, man, what the fuck? He's like, man, everybody heard you.

You sound terrible. Everybody heard you get cussed out. You sound Whitney. He's like, what the hell? You sound Whitney Houston. I was like, no, no, everybody heard you. You sound terrible. Everybody heard you get cussed out. You said, what? He's like, what the hell? You said Whitney Houston. I was like, no, no, everybody heard me. He's like, yes, they were all laughing. I sprinted to the car.

Faux faux. Yes. Faux faux faux. It was terrible. So, you know, I experienced that. Oh, that was great. That was great. I thought I just shared that moment.

How did we get to this? That is great. Oh, I appreciate it. The Dunning-K did we get to this? That is great. Oh, I appreciate it. The Dunning-Kruger. Dunning-Kruger. If you're going to audition for the Lion King, think about Dunning-Kruger first. Oh, God, that's great. All right.

Next question is from Clint. Please elaborate further on potential. You addressed this briefly in June 2017 on Finding Mastery podcast with author John Gordon. It's 42 minutes and 30 seconds. Wow, this is very precise. Yes, I'm walking the podcast path one episode at a time. What is it? What is the generally accepted psychology definition? And what is your definition?

When someone says she's got potential, what are they talking about? When someone says he hasn't yet reached his potential, what are they talking about? Great question. First and foremost, the way that I hear that is somebody is either trying to understand and intellectualize the concept of potential or they've struggled with it themselves and they're looking for a way through it. So I don't know if this is an intellectual or more emotional. I'm going to assume that the person asking this question, it's more intellectual at this point. And I want to start with a counter rotation is that I think that

you have lots of potential can be a very dangerous statement to a kid. And because it's the idea that there's something out there bigger or better that I need to fill in, the word potential can cut a couple of different ways. I just want to make sure that we're holding space for the anxiety that can happen when a person feels like they're in small shoes and this word potential is that one day I'm going to have bigger shoes to fill. So potential can also be a coach killer. This is the other kind of shadow side where you're drafting or you're recruiting somebody and you're betting on their potential, meaning that from this point to 18 months from now or one season from now, they'll be different.

There is a bet, hopefully, that a coach or a recruit is making that there will be growth that will happen, but it's an unknown. So that can be a bit of a coach killer if they bet in error there. What you want to do if you're on the draft or recruiting side is look at past behavior as the best predictor of future behavior. Look at the habits and practices and structures and frameworks of that person. And if that's in place, then you can make a bet that because of your expert culture and coaching abilities, that there could be appropriate growth. So then you can make this interesting bet on potential, meaning that I see their framework. I know our skillset,

the potential would be X. That's kind of interesting. But the reason most coaches don't look at the past framework and they're just looking at their extraordinary skill set i mean the coach's skill set and um the athlete's abilities and making some kind of sloppy bet on the future okay let me now go to the other side of potential the more favorable side potential is this idea that there is more inside of me. So I want to see myself for other people more like Michelangelo, and I'm working to see the David inside. And so the potential is not something outside of me that I need to go get and build and become.

It's already inside. And so as a coach, what I want to do is be disciplined with my imagination, be accurate with the way I'm seeing and interpreting this person's behaviors and structures and frameworks to say, what is the brilliance inside that they already have? And could that come out more often? And how could we help that come out more easily, more often? That's what Michelangelo did for Statue of David. So when you think about potential from that way, it's already in and we're going to elicit and pull it out.

It's very different than you're in small shoes and one day you're going to be in big shoes. That's how I think about potential, is using my imagination to imagine what a person could be more often. So this gets into the splitting the hairs between the words being and becoming. So becoming is not, the next version of me is not out there. The next version of me is eliciting what's already inside of me more often, more easily, more frequently, more daringly, more creatively. And if I can bring that forward in more rugged environments, more stressful environments than I am now, now I am more

closer to what the purity of me is, the truth of me is, the essence of me is. And I need mental skills to be able to pull that out more often. That's where the value of mental skills and psychological skills training is. It's already in me and I need to be able to pull it out more often. That's where the value of mental skills and psychological skills training is. It's already in me and I need to be able to pull it out more often. And so that is different than technical skills. And that's what most people, when they think of potential, is that they could do the technical skills more often. So that's development and growth. When I think about potential, I'm looking at what's already inside, those more eternal capabilities as opposed to the external expressions. That's fascinating. I want to make sure I have good clarity on this. A good gauge of that is being able to harness and pull out what's in you or what's potentially in you during a stressful circumstance

or situation, right? When the stakes are high, when everything is on the line, that's a great gauge for that as opposed to when everything is cool. Yes and no. Like if you can do it in practice and can't do it in game day, let's say, or you can do it in preseason, but can't do it in the season, or you can do it in the season, but can't do it in the postseason, right?'s there's arcs there let's just go practice the game day to make it simple that usually is evidence of psychological skills a lack of psychological skills so if you can technically and physically do it in practice but can't do it game date the only difference is that there's quote-unquote pressure yeah and pressure pressure does not come from the environment.

It's the way that you interpret the environment. And so all of that is psychology for me. That's mind blowing. I use myself, anytime you explain something, I always put myself in that situation so I can understand it better. And I suffered from that highly in high school playing basketball.

And I remember a coach said to me, he tried to simplify it. And his best advice to me was, how you get nervous doing something that you love? It was very simplistic, yet it resonated with me. Until this day, 30 something years later, I'm still like, yeah, how do you get nervous doing something that you love?

I still haven't answered that question in my head. Cause I'm like, okay, if I love it, I shouldn't be nervous. But- I don't know. Yeah, it's totally normal by the way. When you care about something, your body is supposed to activate. It's supposed to switch on.

And if you can find that type of care in practice and not just the care in game day, then you're practicing with your body switched on. So that's how I think one of the ways at least that the greats do it is that they really care. And the sacrifice that they're making is actually not the same sacrifice that somebody works the extra hours, but they don't really care as much. I mean, to be more clear, the person who doesn't care as much as the Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan might not, in relationship to the other person, sacrifice as much because they absolutely love the way it feels to do the thing, the way it feels to unlock the thing. And so the extra hours they put in is more of a choice than a sacrifice. So to make this really

simple is like, honor what you care about. And if you can, if you can shift caring from what other people think and the outcome and the way you'll be judged or perceived if you can just mute that a little bit and care more about the way it feels to unlock something yeah so go from the external to the internal and then um fall in love with that part of the game fall in love with that part of getting better at anything and then bring that into the day-to-day practices that's something that like really can carry pretty far for you. Yeah. Because now you're not in two different bodies.

Yeah. Practice the game day. If you don't have what I just talked about, literally you're in two different bodies. Now I love the honor what you care about thing. Yeah. That simplifies it for me. Does it? It really does.

Like honor what you care about and then everything else falls into place. Yeah. And if you really do care about it, it's okay. If you're like, listen, the thing I care about most is getting paid, getting recognized. I need a house. I want to buy my parents a house. That's what I care about.

And game day, that's the opportunity. So I really care about it. Well, then bring that same care into practice. So the bridge that I'm making, I'm being agnostic to what you care about, but bring the care in, um, so that you're matching as best you possibly can. I would say that, that the external is more dangerous as an investment than the internal. I would say that, you know, for the most part,

but still, it's cool. Wherever someone is, is where they are. I see why, you know, you would have helped me out a lot of around back in high in high school basketball days. I needed me too. I needed this part of me too. Wow. I needed me too. I love that. Yeah, I love that. T-shirt.

I needed me too. That's really good. It sounded better when you said it than when I said it. No, no, no. It flowed off your lips really well. I'm going to get a I needed me too shirt with your face on it. So hold on. I needed me too TM. your face on it. So hold on, I needed me too TM, gotcha. Trademarked it.

All trademarked, you don't trademark. That's actually how it works. I mean, this is not, I would've went with it. I would've went with it, because all I want is the t-shirt. See how simple I am? All I want is the t-shirt. I made it complicated just now.

Yeah, you did. Yeah, sorry about that. You can have all the money, Mike. I'm this information is what sees my soul went right to the external good pivot oh god finding master is brought to you by cozy earth over the years i've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep it starts with how we transition and wind down and that's why i've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have

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My question has to do with an event in my life that has profoundly burdened me. My boss, whom I really worship at the time, accused me of stealing money from him. I was in my mid-twenties and very naive. I did not and do not steal, period. And it was so self-evident for me that I have foolishly thought that it would be uh evident for everyone else to make a long story short i had to leave with no official um accusation but everyone believing that i had embezzled i can't express the horror of the situation for me there is no way to prove my innocence i can't talk about it i had to leave a place that meant so much to me. How can I get over this? I still fantasize about going back and explaining that I didn't steal anything. This happened over 25 years ago. I broke off contact with all those people of that time and place. And in building up a new life, I can't ever talk about my history.

How can I deal with this? I'll be so grateful for any advice. Thank you so much it's a huge step that i am even formulating this question it's sad there's a lot of sadness in that for me i mean that's what trauma is i want to hear the question the word that just jumped out as i idolized or what no i worshiped you know another. Probably, I don't know. There's something in her psychology that is worth probably taking note of. That's really sad.

You know that when our character is assassinated or our character is held up in an unflattering way and there's nothing we can do about it, there is an opportunity to come through this type of trauma with a freedom. And so I would want to know what Flora want, you know, what is she hoping the good life would look like? What is she hoping a sense of inner peace would look like? And I would, that's what I would point to is like, well, what do you, how do you want to live inside of your own skin? How do you want to live? Cause you're not living around those people anymore. So how do you want to live inside of your own skin? How do you want to live? Because you're not living around those people anymore. So how do you want to experience it? Well, I want to forget it.

I just don't want it to be part of me. I had an experience when I was in college, and I was really struggling with this one part of me. And it was these thoughts that kept coming up over and over and over again. I didn't know it, but I was really struggling with anxiety. One of my professors, Dr. Cusio says, I was telling him about this. And, and so I got the courage, maybe somewhat like Flora here. I got the courage and I saw Dr. Cusio as we're walking to class. I said, Hey doc, can I talk to you about something? And I was like

physically rattled. I was like shaking. He's like, yeah, Mike. Yeah. Come on, let's walk to class. And so he goes, what's up? And as we're walking, I started to get into my narrative and he's, and he, he cut me off, like rudely almost cut me off. And he said, he said, Hey, when the phone rings, do you have to answer it? I'm like, what are you doing? Like, man, I'm like really vulnerable right now. Like what a, what a crackhead. Like, that's crazy. You know, like, and so he walked off and I was just kind of like, I walked silently with

him, but like there was no more real conversation. So I thought maybe he didn't get it. Maybe I didn't explain it. I don't know what to do here. A week later, kind of same scenario. I grabbed him and I said, Hey doc, I didn't really get to, you know, share what I'm struggling with. And you know, do you have a minute? He goes, yeah, let's walk to class. And so same thing, I got to about the same part of my narrative and he cut me off again. And I was like, okay, here it comes. And he says, when someone knocks on the door, do you have to answer it? I was like, damn, what is, and I laughed, you know, like, okay, twice. And he's like, come on,

let's go to class. So a couple of things happened there is that I was struggling. I went in a vulnerable way to get advice. I wanted healing. I wanted to be okay. And he fundamentally interrupted my story. What a gift. He didn't let me rehydrate the trauma. He didn't let me run the script one more time. He didn't let me rehearse the nuances with greater depth. He interrupted the narrative. And then in that jarring way, I didn't know this at the time. It took me years to figure it out. I just thought he was weird. And then in this jarring way, he asked the right question. When an intrusion, when somebody calls you or somebody knocks on your door, do you have to pick it up? Do you have to answer that call? When there's a thought that you don't want to entertain, when there's a thought that calls you or a thought that knocks on your door, do you have to entertain it? the answer is no. But I was busy every time I'd be eating my, I'd be on my couch, this was in college years,

you know, suspect dinner, you know, suspect things that I, I regret that I even put in my body at this point. It was mac and cheese and tuna. That was my dinner for more nights than you would have, I know.

I thought you was going to say ramen noodles and beef jerky or something like that. No, steak them and ketchup and white bread. You can't, you probably can't beat me on the terrible food during high school, college years. Steak them. Steak them. I know. So anyways, enough of my malnutrient, you know, younger self. So the idea was that I would be comfortable in my living room and somebody would

knock on the door and I'd open it and invite them in, give them half my meal, even though I was starving and hungry. Starving is too big of a word. Even though I was hungry and I didn't want company, I didn't want to entertain a conversation, but reflexively, I kept inviting people in. And that's how we work with our thoughts. When a thought comes up, we do not have to answer it. We do not have to entertain it. And if Flora was here, I'd like to, in the most clever way, reminisce with what Dr. Cusio did and just remind her that you do not have to entertain the microtraumas. And when you interrupt them and you reorganize or just stop hydrating them, that weed doesn't grow. And at the same time, when you can sit with another person

and you can fall into a thousand pieces and be entirely connected to the emotion of the trauma, to the emotion of who you want to be, the disparity between those two, and another person can see you and hold that space and love you, love your traumas, love your future, love the person that you are right now, and hold that space with you and not rattle and not blink, incredible healing happens in just that relationship moment. And so there's lots of ways for healing to take place.

Those are at least two of them. Okay. That was beautifully said. No, no. That was beautifully said. And I love every aspect of that. I'm waiting for a but? No, there is no but.

I mean, you know, when I think of a Flora situation, I ask myself, is it really important to her to have her name cleared in the eyes of these people no no no no it's not yeah that's that's like it will feel good yeah you know that's that and there's uh there were some early recommendations for people that were abused as children and the recommendations, you know, following the, what the clients wanted was to go back and confront that abuser, make them see, you know,

and the fantasy is that they'll say, Oh, I am so sorry. I did not realize just how evil and horrible of a human I was. I am so sorry. You deserve better. That, you know how many times that happens? Zero.

Right, right. So maybe once. Damn you, that's a good one. Yeah, it's a good one. So you know what ends up taking place is the abuser. So the person goes back and confronts the uncle or whoever it was and lays their piece out. And then you know what the abuser does?

They re-abuse. You wanted it for the sexual survivors. Or they say, what are you talking about? That never even happened. Oh my God, that was embarrassing when I made that joke? Are you, come on. You've been carrying that around? Oh my, please.

So they minimize, they gaslight, they flat out reconstruct history or they, and all of that is abuse or they make you feel even more sick in some kind of way. So, so, uh, best practice, you know, don't go back, go forward. And here's the last bit of last little thought here. You can be from the inside out just about anything that you want. I am not talking about external riches and roles, but from the inside out, you can be happy. You can flourish. You can have vibrance and a zest and a fire for

life. You can be any version of that. You can bring that forward. It lives in you. You've touched it. You felt it. You've inhabited it in some way. You can bring that forward more It lives in you. You've touched it. You felt it. You've inhabited it in some way. You can bring that forward more often. That, I think, is our responsibility as we move forward. We all have these seeds. It's a very gardening, zen approach to life. We all have these seeds. Which ones are we going to water?

If we water the seeds of jealousy and anger and rage and bitterness and shame and guilt, they grow. If we water them, and how do we water? By thinking about them, by paying attention, by putting sunlight on them. How do we water the other seeds of love and kindness and da-da-da-da-da-da? Same thing. Think about them, bring them forward, put sunlight on them, exercise them, whatever it might be. So I guess you don't exercise seeds, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm super impressed by what people are capable of being.

And so come on, Flora, show us the way. I gotta say this. After you gave the first initial explanation about Flora, I'm telling you, I had a book of rebuttals. Like I'm just like, okay, well, I don't know, because I really, but that was beautifully stated, man. I'll fuck with that. That was great.

I was especially revisiting the trauma and most of the time, if not all the time, they're just gonna look at you like, I did that or I hurt you or you weren't. That's true. That's 100%. Dead on. Right, yeah.

Cause I was looking for a reason i was trying to sympathize with florida and say man you probably want to clear her name i mean uh you know forget about it yeah i mean if it's not like i don't know you can't disprove something that you didn't do you know so that's really a very tricky thing it's a classic tactic tactic in politics throw some stuff out there try to dis disprove something. How do you do it? It's like, it's a terrible tactic that is deployed often. We're right in the midst of it, you know, in this U.S. election campaign right now. Yeah. And oftentimes when you, when you try to do that, more trolls come out and more people, and it just makes it look worse. A hundred percent. Yeah.

O'Neill. Mike. Yeah. This is great. I don't think I would, I'm not sure about my intention of being precise. No, man. You know what? Forget about it. I'm glad you ignored me. Okay. I knew you would anyway. You didn't give me the, you didn't coach me.

No, I wasn't going to. I just said that. We're in the pocket. I feel good about how we did this. I feel good. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Yeah.

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