Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - World Champion Climber Sasha DiGiulian on Risk, Fear, and Thriving Under Pressure

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

What happens when your biggest obstacle isn’t the mountain—it's your own self-doubt?Sasha DiGiulian is one of the world’s top rock climbers and a pioneer in the sport—with multiple first female ascents, national titles, and a world championship under her belt. Sasha’s unique approach to navigating fear, risk, and doubt is masterful. In this conversation, you’ll hear how Sasha balances the tension of caring, while letting go—a mindset that fuels her success in climbing and life. Outside of scaling epic walls, Sasha has seamlessly blended extreme sport with entrepreneurship, public speaking, and environmental advocacy. In this conversation, we discuss how vulnerability plays a key role in Sasha’s mental performance, and how she learned to tune out external judgment while remaining authentic to herself. She also opens up about her struggle though multiple hip injuries, the importance of resilience through challenges and how recovery is important for all of us to live our best lives.This episode with Sasha is full of actionable insights that can help you perform under pressure, stay grounded, and embrace your ever-changing journey in life. Dive in._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. What happens when your biggest obstacle isn't the mountain? It's your own self-doubt. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Today, we have a very special guest, Sasha DeJulian, one of the world's top climbers and a true pioneer in her sport. In today's conversation, we dive into Sasha's unique approach to navigating fear,

risk, and doubt. You'll hear how she balances the tension of caring while letting go, a mindset that fuels her success in climbing and in life. We also discuss how vulnerability plays a key role to her mental performance and how she learned to tune out external judgment while staying authentic to herself. She opens up about her struggle through multiple hip injuries and the importance of resilience through challenges and how recovery is important for all of us to live our best lives. I know you're looking to explore what it takes to master your own craft, whether you're in sport, business, the arts, or as a family member. This conversation is full of actionable insights

that will help you perform under pressure, stay grounded, embrace the ever-changing journey ahead. Let's dive into this week's conversation with Sasha DeJulian. Sasha, what a treat to have you here. It's a rare opportunity to be able to speak to somebody that has multiple firsts, that carved a unique path in life that most people do not understand. And so in some respects, it's like, wow, all right. So here we are with somebody who's a pioneer in many respects,

and you're just like everyone else at the same time. So I want to understand a handful of how you work from the inside out, what it's like to be you, somebody who's on the frontier, that's pushing, that's making waves, and what your inner life is to be able to allow you to do that. So welcome to the Mastery Lab. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate you welcoming me to the show. So excited to dive in. Yeah, cool. What is it like for you in this moment right now to be you? What is it like to be in the chair? And the reason I ask is because what's ever happening inside fundamentally shapes the

words we choose, the stories we tell or don't tell. And I know that when I sit in your chair, heart rate pounds, something happens for me. Sometimes it's excitement. Sometimes it's nervousness. And we don't talk about the inner experience enough. And from the distance, it looks like, wow, Sasha's got it all together. But what is it like as we're just getting started in this conversation? No, I think you hit the nail on the head about me

just being any ordinary person. I'm just over here struggling to figure it out. And the facade of as if I have it all figured out, I don't. And internal struggles are a big part of my battle. And so every day is different. Some days are good. Some days are bad. Some days I wake up feeling really proud of myself and motivated to go conquer whatever mountain it is for the day. And then some days

I wake up feeling like an imposter in my own body. So I don't know. I would say the struggle is real. Thank you for bringing that forward because now we've got some fertile ground now to go explore. And you know why I love speaking with adventure athletes is because you and they love boundaries and to push at the edge of the boundary. And it's at the boundary, at the frontier, at the edge that the breakthrough happens and you could fall apart into a thousand pieces and you could actually hurt yourself in your environment. But let me drill in one more time. As you are sitting here in this moment, what is happening inside of you? I'm feeling excited to get vulnerable and nervous to be misunderstood and and calm because you have a very calming presence.

So excited to just have a good chat, I guess. Look at that. That might be a more important insight that most people have ever said in these conversations. So one, I'm excited to be vulnerable, nervous to be misunderstood. And at the same time, which both of those are high activation, and then you've got this other piece that says I feel calm because the space feels calm.

What is the predominant driver? Is it excitement, is it fear, or is it calmness? By the way, public speaking, which we're not doing right now, but sharing the inner life with other people is one of the hardest things to do. I think that calm is the anchor because I know I can't be wrong talking about my own journey because it's my journey. And. Wait, you just smiled. You knew that you were onto something cool when you said that. I don't know if I'm onto something cool.

I think that I always just, when I'm going into a nerve-wracking situation, like I do public speaking as well, and sometimes I'm on the stage and I think I blacked out afterwards. But it's almost like, what did I say? Did I do it well? Is that because of flow state or is that because of nervousness that you lost contact with reality? Maybe a combination of both.

I always like to wiggle my toes a little bit before I get started into anything because it's that connection of my head down to the ground. So that's what I did before we dived in. You did? Yeah. In your boots? Yeah. It's like, let's find myself again. Hold on, hold on. This is going to be so much fun. That small little practice seems almost like a trick if you just take the surface value of it. But it's not a trick. It's something that you're doing for a purpose, which is to be connected to your body. So your work, so when your mind and your body are connected, that's like now I'm bringing, you are bringing your full self forward.

I started working with a massage therapist that does a lot of cranial work. And when I've been really stressed, she's given me that cue to think about where my feet are. Because I think when I've been really like a bundle of anxiety, You can get that really like weighted feeling in your head or weightless as well. Like it comes in contrast. And I think I've just adopted that cue into before I climb. And you said smile. Like I worked with a trainer actually who said, before you pull on to the wall, smile.

Look up at the wall and smile because it's a cue to be excited about what you're about to do. And I don't know, maybe I smile out of nervousness too. There's probably a lot of emotions that go into the physical output of what I do when I'm present. Yeah. Okay, cool. So it was Ram Dass, and I don't know why I'm blanking if this is accurate or not, that I think about it, I say it, I work to do it all the time, which is a very powerful, simple phrase, be where your feet are. And so in other words, like be here now, right? And you wiggling your feet is actually anchoring to a pretty deep insight from one of the great thinkers about being fully present. And again, it sounds like it could be a trick.

There's no tricks to mastery. There's no tricks to high performance, certainly in theaters with great consequence. But the idea that I'm going to do whatever I need to do to anchor to my body, I'd love to know what your ideal competitive mindset or your ideal performance mindset is. When I can catalyze that moment of the flow state like you described. It's when I tap in to not caring about the end result, but enjoying the process of that journey on the wall. Because climbing, you go into a lot of unknowns. Like when I am planning to go climb a wall somewhere halfway across the world, I don't know exactly what I'm training for. Like I don't know what that climb entails, but I can train my finger strength. I can train, you know, all the physical side.

And then when I get there, it's kind of like I find out what the hardest sections of this climb are. And in order for me to actually complete, like, getting from the bottom to the top of the wall, I can't really control whether my foot's going to slip, if I'm going to, like, miss a hold. Like, there's so many different factors that make you fall while really pushing your limit on a rock face. But what I can control is it's almost like, for me, I've always succeeded in climbing when I'm navigating this balance of caring but not caring. And back when I competed too, you know, I'd walk out and I'd be like, I just want to have fun on this climb. Because you go into this climb that you've never tried before, and competing, that's on artificial surfaces. Now what I do is free climbing, which is with a rope, not to be confused with free soloing, which is without a rope. But free climbing is where you're climbing with just your hands and your feet, no assistance of gear, but you have gear for safety. And like, it's always

this new climb. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively.

It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert,

try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free free terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the

reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay.

All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here.

So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So this is where I love the crosswalk between sport and life, is that it's always new. This moment, whatever this moment is, is brand new. We've never had a conversation exactly like this before. And so the present moment is always

unfolding. It's always unpredictable. It's always unknown because no one's lived in it before. And so there's an eccentric nuance to what we're talking about. But what you did or what you've done to be great, to have multiple firsts, to be deeply recognized by the industry, to be the one or one of the ones, is that you would prepare a set of capabilities and skills, finger strength in particular, amongst others. And is that you would prepare a set of capabilities and skills, finger strength in particular, and then, amongst others, and then when you would arrive at this new moment, this new wall, you would rely on your capabilities and skills that you built, but without like the exact knowing of how those skills are going to transfer, because you haven't seen the wall before. And walls are always changing as well, right? Are you clear on how that crosswalks

to everyday life? Because it's brilliant. And I don't know if you are transferring it the way that I would hope I would try to be able to transfer it. I think I could learn a lot from you about how to transfer it. I would say that my experience in climbing has provided this grounding space for me to lead my everyday life. And what I find that when I'm excited about a new climb, that enthusiasm for what could be new and unfolding every day is what brings excitement to life. Because like you said, I don't know what's going to happen today. I mean, I think I have a flight after this. I think I'm going home.

I'm probably going to train. There's plans. But like there's plans, but things always change. You can't go about life with this rubric of what's going to happen because if you're too tied in to that, then what do you do when you have to course correct and adjust? And on the wall, like, you know, your foot slips.

You have to course correct. Or a hold is not as good as you thought it was going to be. You have to, like, adjust your body. So it's kind of a microcosm for maybe how you can adapt in everyday life. But I don't know if I apply it entirely in the most optimal way. You're probably exercising it right now because okay, so go back to when we first started excited, a bit of fear or anxiousness, and then calm. And when excitement, or let's call it the anxiousness are so loud that we can't be calm, it makes it very difficult to be agile, very difficult to adjust. And so we need to damp down the excitement and damp down the anxiety to have that calm focus, which is the broth of being able to be agile.

You're agile in this moment. I'm kind of zeroing in on some things that I'm super interested in. And it might feel like to you like, whoa, you interrupted a few times or like we're jumping around, but I'm super like interested in how you're using your inner life to be able to be great on the wall, but also great in the non-wall moments. And I think you are agile. Well, what's interesting too is like you say great on the wall and all I go to is, well, not that great. Do you? So you want to, why do you do that?

I think. You've got, well, hold on just for a moment. Just list all the firsts. What are all the firsts that you've had that you go, yeah, but not, you can't argue. You were a first, a female first, I think in most of them, right? Yeah, I have first ascents and I have first female ascents around the world. But I think that I've grown up in this culture, right?

Like I've climbed since I was six. I had my first endorsement deal when I was 12. I've been thrust into a limelight of a niche sport in a community that's really judgmental. And I've learned to be really, almost feel bad about being loud. And, you know, media attention gives me a lot of anxiety sometimes because it can be seen the wrong way. Or if, you know, your assent is covered with lacking a nuance, then it falls on you as much as you try and like correct it. Like there's a lot of opinion in the world that I come from and my community isn't used to having media really in it. And so. What was the emotion you felt about halfway through

this statement that you just made? What was that? I think sometimes I zoom out and I think about how ridiculously narrow-minded some aspects of what I've gone through can be. And I'm working on realizing that and compartmentalizing it. So did I see and feel an aha or did I see and feel sadness? Maybe both. You know, I love my community that I come from too. And climbing's brought me so much like identity and it's taught me so much. Like I've traveled to over 50 different countries at this point to pursue my sport. And

I have such a global community. Like some, I was just in Mexico last week and I was staying with a friend who's a professional climber from there and speaking Spanish the entire time and learning how to make homemade tortillas and like doing all these really cool things while climbing in a really beautiful place. And so it can be such a connective community as well. And then there's also, there's a dark side to it. And I don't know if everyone in the sport experiences the dark side, but I certainly have. And that's become a big mission of mine is to encourage people to be okay with who they are. The sadness that I thought I felt, the aha is clear. Like, wait, why am I staying so kind of

connected to this thing? Like, I can be anyone I want to be. And this narrow image or this narrow narrative in climbing doesn't have to be my narrative. I can actually change that. But the sad, let me stay on the sadness and of course, correct me if I'm way off here or even 2% off. The sadness is the compromises that you've made of self to belong, to be accepted, to be seen. And you did it in this conversation too, which is what I think was the springboard for the feeling, which was, yeah, I take away. I question, have I really done much? So there's a diminishing nature to be able to kind of fall back into not being the one that goes, yeah, I've done some cool stuff.

Like, yeah, yeah, I am pretty good too. Like I've worked really hard. So that's kind of the tall poppy that rises up and in surf culture and in climbing culture and other core cultures, a tall poppy gets whacked down quickly. So I watched you diminish yourself. Because my sport is kind of that no big deal mentality sport and culture. Alex, no big deal, hun old.

He's definitely the king of no big deal. And I think that we all have different characters and ways that we navigate life, and there's no one size fits all. And so, yeah, there's definitely that, I think. So the quote that I have literally printed in my office, in my bathroom, literally just printed from the quote, is the man in the arena. And I love that quote because, you know, we all stumble, we all fall, and we all go through the criticism, but we're actually out here trying. And so what I always go back to that's like a really encouraging mindset for me is that

I'm going to show up. I'm going to work hard. I know that I work really hard. I know that I'm genuine to like wanting to explore what my potential is. And then there's people that are going to criticize it. So that's Theodore Roosevelt's beautiful speech in Sarbanes-Paris. And it's well known for this two paragraphs or three paragraphs, The Man in the Arena. What you just did, though, is really cool.

It's like, look, I populate my environment with a thought that really helps me. Again, this is a little bit of a, it's not a bottom up, it's an outside in, to remind you of the way that you want to feel and think, which is like, look, go for it. Don't be one of those cold timid souls that don't know victory or defeat. Like, don't be a cold timid soul. Be the strong one in the arena that's going for it. To do that, though, you have to honor the boldness that it takes to be able to go for

it. And this is why I'm so attracted to the, the action sport world, because it requires you, me and others to send it, which is also, which is fun that like, this is the business that you're building. I want to talk about that. We just inserted here, the, the protein bar send bars. Awesome. I love the taste. I love what you stand for. Super foods kind of packed together, protein-based. It's got a great consistency on it. I feel like I'm giving you a plug here, but- I know. I really appreciate it. I'm like, go off. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I actually didn't know that you were part of it. Yeah. Well, you feel well when you feel well, right?

Say that again? You feel well when you feel well. Well, I just kind of said that because it sounded natural. But when I – so when I was younger, going through college and being a professional athlete, I would sacrifice sleep and nutrition all the time. For what reason? Because I felt like, well, I've got to stay up and try and get this midterm study done. Or, you know, I'm like running around and I'm going to eat whatever is convenient for me when I dialed into, okay, I'm going to actually focus on eating clean and prioritizing my sleep. it was a really big shift for me.

That, okay. And then to build a business out of it is cool. Maybe not for everybody, but the idea that I'm going to, so I was going to loop back around before we're talking about sending. You said, so what I need to do is I need to go back to the foundationals that are always under my control. One of the foundational things that you're doing is that you are anchoring inside of the things that are 100% under your control. My preparation, my this, my that. The way that you are contoring your thoughts, words, and actions to line up to be your very best is required to operate in consequential environments. It's exactly that. That's it.

When I go in to planning, so I plan this all-female expedition to go and climb the hardest wall that an all-female team has ever done in climbing. It's called Rayu. It was awesome. Where is it? It was in Picos de Europa in Spain. And when I'm planning an expedition, like it's like, what are the variables that I can control? Because you can't control anything else. This is the foundational principle.

Yeah. So you live deeply aligned to that. Like I'm going to work on mastering what's in my control. Is that a true statement for you? I try. I would say that like life is dynamic and changing. And like I said at the top, like I have good days and I have bad days and the good days, you can definitely draw a parallel to the way that I've showed up to my sleep, the way that I've showed up to what I eat, how I've trained. And the way you train and the way you think. And the people that I surround myself with. Do you think you just hit all five? Oh, good. Yeah, those are the five.

Foundational pillars to live a great life. And there's more, but all five of those straddle skill development and recovery. It's because I've read your book. Oh, yes. Did you? I have, yeah. Did you read it? Yeah. The First Rule of Mastery? I read the Controlling What People Think of You book. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Stop Worrying About What People Think of You. Yeah. Thank you. It sounds like that was a bit of a, maybe a thing for you to sort out based on your, your, the community? I would say it's a thing that I'm still sorting out, but I, um,

um, I'm finding a lot more confidence in myself lately. And I would say that that confidence is coming from being happy with the community that I've built, going through really big life-altering injury, coming back from it. Like I went through double hip reconstructive surgery where I was told by multiple surgeons that I'd never professionally be able to climb again. I was out for nine months. I couldn't do my sport. Um, well, it was 2020 through 2022. So during COVID. Yeah. Yeah. It was during COVID. I had basically my femur head was popping out of the socket on both sides of my hips and I had shredded through my, um, I had congenital hip dysplasia. And as I went about my sport for over 20 years, I had ground down and shredded

through like my labrum and all of the connective tissue. And I was facing either a total hip reconstruction or total hip replacement. And I knew that I was still in the heart of my professional career. And so total hip replacement was, would really compromise that. And I knew that I was still in the heart of my professional career. And so total hip replacement would really compromise that. So I went through this path of working with this incredible surgeon. He was actually a former Red Bull athlete too. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance,

whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting.

Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions

for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening,

it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again,

that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com. And use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You're still with Red Bull. Yes. As a primary sponsor. Yeah. I had so much fun in the time that I was intimately connected there. What a wild company slash culture to support people that literally give wings to ideas. And yeah, are you enjoying your time there? They've been so supportive. When I went through what I went through with my hips,

they aligned me with that. So when I worked with Eric Potter at, and they aligned me with PTs to work with, nutritionists to work with, I learned so much about going back to what can you control. When you're absolutely flat, and I had my abs cut out three times in the surgeries, my pelvic bone was like- Oh, that's how they were going to get to it. Yeah, broken into four pieces on both sides. I'm actually wearing the ring from the screws that were inside my body because I had six six-inch screws holding my hips together. And then when I ended up getting the metal out I wanted to have like

we don't have a super bowl in climbing so I wanted to like wear it that's great yeah and so yeah now it's it's when I am feeling nervous about something or going on to I love it the adventure that's intuiting I don't wear many rings because I'm using my hands so much. You don't wear that when you climb? I don't wear a ring when I climb, no. But look at your hands. You had to earn these. Let's not zoom into these hands.

We will. We're going to get up close. Like, look at your hands. So when you look at a tennis player and, like, one of their paraspinals, one of their back and lat and arms is, like, huge. They're deltage because of, like, the rotation or golfers like it's more golf and then but you have to earn those hands right calluses bent is your is your is that your right pinky like yeah my pinky does not straighten what happened i have no idea yes it's just over time

it's funny you know i've sat at like one of those dinners with like all the Red Bull athletes. And you're like, wow, everyone here is so cool. And gone through like, you're gnarly. No, you're gnarly. And I remember Kyle Lenny talking about like surfing off of some shark's fin or something like that. Kyle's a friend of the court. He was on the pod as well. Yeah, I saw that.

He is amazing. And I was like, well, what differentiates me? Well, my fingers. Yeah, right. These fingers. Yeah, right. I know. Yeah, that's what I got.

You can see like a surfer, they've got like huge triceps. And like, you can see, for every sport, for somebody who's a master of it, there's a physiological and physical adaptation that's taken place that is not normal. Yeah. I would not imagine that your height would serve you in climbing, but maybe I don't know. Does that, is it an advantage to kind of work in a tighter space versus somebody like Alex is really long?

Alex Honnold is really long. I would say that it's an interesting question because I don't actually have the answer to that. Yeah. that it's an interesting question because I don't actually have the answer to that because every body is different and the beauty of climbing is especially in outdoor climbing you work with what you have and your body becomes this tool that's like a vertical dance on the wall like you are bending and maneuvering your body and driving from your hips and your core so much so that like, if you're a shorter climber, then you have advantages. If you're a taller climber,

you have advantages too. Um, but historically I like to look at more of the women that have been pioneers in my sport. And one of my mentors is Lynn Hill. She's shorter than me. She calls herself five too, but I would question that maybe she she's 5'1", because I'm 5'2". Call out your mentor. Yeah, yeah. And we actually have spent a lot of time climbing together. She's a neighbor of mine in Boulder. And then we've got like Robin Erbisfield, who's also of the same generation of Lynn. She's 5'1", maybe.

Her daughter, Brooke, who's an amazing climber she's five two so we've got like definitely a contingency of shorties yeah um and then yeah and you yeah you're framing it as a dance a vertical dance like on the wall yeah as opposed to a horizontal dance well maybe vertical because you're going upwards going upwards yeah so but you see as a dance so vertical because you're going upwards. You're going upwards, yeah. But you see it as a dance. So in climbing, you're navigating all of these sequences on the wall. There you go. And it's kind of like this routine. And you don't want to be starfish, which means you don't want your hands to lead before your feet actually move too. A lot is driven by your core.

So you do a lot of like core strengthening exercises because that's the body connection. And you're pivoting. Like sometimes you have what's called a side pull. So then you need to create opposition in your body to move off of that side pull. So whereas your left foot going, if your right hand's on a side pull, there's kind of like a lot of nuance to movement. We started by talking about nervous of being misunderstood. And you're very public because of how good you are and the full package of who you are. If you could just be as free as you wanted to possibly be,

what would you want people to really understand about you? There's a moment here now. I think that I am me and I've approached the sport that I really love with the approach that I love the duality of who I am. Like I love getting dressed up. I love, you know, going to fancy dinners in New York City where I went to school and I feel grounded and alive when I'm outside. The reason that I moved from New York City to Boulder is because I wake up every day and I hike a mountain with my dog. And that's like how I wake up. And it's beautiful. I'm in the mountain. I'm like grounded by nature. That's where I feel very connected, but it's also not all of me. Um, but just before you keep going, it's not all of

me, not many climbers who earn the kind of the community name of being a dirtbag, which benevolently means like lovingly means I spent a summer, you know, in my car van and it's pretty dirty, right? Okay. Not many get to Columbia University. How did you do that? And not many wear heels. I don't, I'm, I don't know this to be true. You're correct. Am I correct? Yeah, you're correct. I grew up in a city. The reason I went to Columbia was full honesty. I grew up in a household that my parents just were very academic driven. And me going to an Ivy League school was kind of like what I knew as my like expectation. And so I applied to one school and it was because I grew up going to New York training at Chelsea Piers and I love

New York City. Full transparency. I watched Gossip Girl. I love Gossip Girl. They went to Columbia. And so I applied to early decision to Columbia, got in and was like, check. You know, this is all very funny. Yeah, no, it's hilarious. Like, but it's also like I was unabashedly like, this is why I want to go to Columbia. And I love the city. I love the energy of it. Okay. So you didn't have to break barriers here, right? Like my idea that you're breaking barriers in this way about from the the dirtback culture to the ivy league you didn't have to break a barrier this was like a dual path and that's what you're talking about compartmentalizing both were true my family knew nothing really about climbing that my mom

dove in so hard to learning about climbing when i was seven like she learned how to belay me and she would come to the gym. When you're standing below a person. Yeah. And like hold the rope. It's like a safety mechanism. Yeah. And how special. Then it could be my mom and she traveled around the world with me and like she'd come to every competition and she was so invested. Were your parents wealthy? Growing up, I thought that they were, but I actually paid my full tuition for Columbia myself from my climbing career. And it was a big driver as to why I had to hustle my ass off, frankly, at school because my dad passed away very suddenly. He left with debt. Hold on.

This would be one of the most significant parts of your life. Yeah. I think that there's a lot that happened during the timeframe of when I suddenly lost my dad that I'm only now starting to kind of go into an examen. Because you, it was too much? Or like, for what reasons? I think that I've realized that, back to your first question about like,

growing up with these parallels. My dad specifically, because my mom actually was like, you be you and, you know, embrace that aspect of you. And this isn't to say that, like, I don't think I have, like, daddy issues or whatever the, like, common thing is. I had a great relationship with my dad, but at the same time, it was complex. He didn't want me to be, and he would refer to it as a do-nothing climber. I wanted to go to CU Boulder for university really badly because that's where all my friends went. And it was like, no, you need to go to an Ivy League school. So I was like, okay, I'll go to Columbia.

And it was under this auspice. My parents didn't go to Ivy League schools. My mom went to McGill, which is like the Harvard of the North, as Canadians say. Yeah, right, yeah. But- Are you Canadian? I'm half Canadian.

I have a dual passport. Mom grew up there. Mom, yeah, and she lives there. She lives in Montreal. But it wasn't under the auspice of like, because I had any sort of legacy there or anything. It was just my dad saw Ivy League school as so connected.

And I think that, like, I don't agree with this, but I think that society has driven, you know, traditionally where you go to school is connected to where you get a job, et cetera. Climbing was never my future to him. And I think that that drove me. He was in business, like, to create a business and to say, like what look at this um

i can be a climber i can be a professional climber um my parents never once looked at like a single contract that i had in climbing i always wanted to negotiate my own contracts there's an independence about you there's a little bit of a chip too. Probably, yeah. Yeah. So 11 years ago is how long you've been in the grieving process. And maybe it was postponed for a little bit? It was super postponed. A week after he passed, I went and I gave a keynote

because I had signed a contract that I would speak. And I didn't think that you could ever break a contract. And then I went on a climbing trip. And I, you know, I think that it's challenging to look back at like that period of my life because I would have done things differently. I would have done a lot of things differently, but my life was also being broadcast to a lot of people that didn't know me and didn't know what I was going through. And, and I think that the reason I went on the climbing trip that summer too, was like, I felt like I had to prove myself that I was still climbing and still in it.

And now, you know, I look back at my younger self with like empathy and I think it's a big driver of what I feel in my own career for what I want to offer young girls and also boys. Like you can be who you are and you don't have to fit into the expectations of other people. So much of my life, I've tried to do that. And I've made sacrifices along the way.

And I didn't take a month to grieve losing a parent like I could have. Then I went back and I started school. Wait, just on that piece, looking back, I didn't spend the time to grieve. What is that now like for you to say? I think I would slow down. I was moving really fast. Like when I was at school, because I was paying for my tuition and couldn't, you know, apply for financial aid for personal family reasons, like I was getting on an airplane after class each Thursday evening, flying to Europe or Asia or across the U.S., going, showing up, flying back on a Sunday night. I'd do all of my homework like on the plane and I'd show up to class Monday morning. And I remember actually one crazy stretch of time where

I like flew to Germany for a weekend for an Adidas shoot. I used to work with Adidas. Now I'm with Free People, which is awesome and exciting. I see what they're doing. It's pretty cool. I was like, I love doing things that other climbers haven't done before. And like that, like just in the way of like, I see so much growth for this community and like opening the aperture of what we can do. And I love the like emphasis on just like being an empowered female. But yeah, I, and then I would, I raced back and I went to China the next weekend for 36 hours for like a signing. And then the next weekend I went to LA for a competition. And during that time I got like

an autoimmune breakout because I had so much stress Stress. Stress, yeah. Trauma. I also didn't know, and this goes back to learning how to fuel, like I didn't know that I had celiac disease, and I suffered with that a lot through learning about food intolerances, but also allergies and then getting tested in 2018 for celiac disease. So I didn't know that. You didn't know the whole time. Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't

just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle.

They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FindingMastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FindingMastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now.

And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more.

It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What do you, if you can go back to your younger self before your dad passed away, and if I have it correctly, it was a stroke. Yeah, it was a stroke. Yeah, medically induced coma.

Yeah. He had a hemorrhagic stroke, so he had excessive bleeding to his brain and he never woke up. If you could go back to prior to that, what guidance would you give yourself? I think, you know, I wish I was more considerate to his perspective. I was constantly trying to prove myself to him. And I think in large part I would say, like, slow down. Like, it's okay. Take a beat. I never took a beat. Like, I was like, go, go, go. And then I also, like like wouldn't change it either because I got a lot done. But is, um, be considerate of his narrative

because you're pushing against it, right? Pushing up against it. You loved your dad. He loved you. Was there, there's no question there. No, no, he was so proud. So you were able to push up against something that was really safe. Yeah. What a gift to allow you to understand how to push up against other things that are necessarily not safe. Like, so that is in some respects by accident, probably one of the safest sand lots that we can play in. Because at some level we know that, okay, okay, dad wants this and you played all the right kind of cards to be able to have a dual path

between education and climbing, but you are pushing up against the grain, his perspective, which allowed you to do so much. There might be a gift inside the gift here, you know, or a gift inside the grieving process to keep exploring. I'm so grateful for it. Like I look at the way that I grew up and, you know, you ask, like, were you wealthy? Like, I had so much privilege. And I've spent a lot of my life feeling guilty for that too. And then I realized, like, I can't change the way that I grew up.

I can change the way that I show up now, you know. I can do the best that I can to build a platform of openness and a pathway that other people who also like grow up in a family that maybe you're growing up in a city, you don't grow up in like surrounded by mountains with a family that climbs. That like experience of mine, I don't think that it's unique to just me. And so I hope that I can serve as like this one channel, you know, you can choose like different channels of, of experiences you've gone through. And this was just my experience. And, and I could feel guilty about the privilege that I've had versus other people, or I can use it to help better the future. And that's just like a little bit more of like a positive mindset. And so I try and take that route.

I was going to ask you about what are the principles? You said, I don't want to change it. I don't want to go back and kind of rewrite it. It is what my history is, what it is. But I can change some things about how I show up now. And then that in the most powerful sense, that would rest on a handful of first principles. And you answered it. I think openness, openness to what, what does that mean as a first principle is that I'm going to guide my life moving forward with an openness. And I think you said to create openness.

So what does that mean? my life moving forward with an openness. And I think you said to create openness. So what does that mean? My instinctual reaction to openness, it's like openness to who I am. Yeah. Which is the counter-rotation to the judgment and critique that maybe you once experienced from yourself and from others. Well, what I realized is like, no matter what I say, anything I say on this podcast and my book, like any of it, I'm not going to change. If someone, if someone has chosen to dislike me and to not understand me, I'm not going to spend my journey, like trying to change that person's opinion. You know, there was a thank you for saying that because it reminds me of something that helped me a lot in my life, which is, let's say somebody walks into the room and they're dismissive to me, or they're rude to me, or they make a joke and I feel kind of a certain way about it.

Or everything's fine and then come to find out they're saying like, yeah, that Gervais guy, later. And this is what helped me, is that in psychology, there's called transference and countertransference. So transference as a first principle is that I remind you of somebody. I remind you of maybe your favorite uncle, or I remind you of the uncle that was terrible to you. So at this non-conscious level, and you remind me of somebody, okay?

Maybe it's below conscious, maybe it's in the conscious realm. But if it's non-conscious and I come in and then I have a certain way to you or I talk about you badly behind your back, it's actually, there's so much like embedded bias that's already entered the room that it just helps me like, oh, that is about them too. Maybe I need to take a look at my behaviors and make sure that like I was kind and open or whatever the first principles are. But, you know, oftentimes it's, it is as much about their experience reacting to something that they might not even be aware of that I was a natural trigger for. And so, I don't know, that really helps me, but I want to go back to Roosevelt again. And so Emma, our producer, put up a note here. This is a deeper part of his speech.

The poorest way of life is to face it with a sneer. There are many who confine themselves to criticism of the way others do what they themselves dare not even attempt. That's powerful. That's you. That is you. No, you're not the sneer. You are the one that is saying, I am not going to stay small to the criticism of others. I am going to dare to run a parallel path between high education, high fashion, and, you know, and climbing. You know, it's funny. I sometimes think about like,

I don't know, internet forums or like trolls on the internet. And I try now to look at it with empathy because I think how sad that you're sitting there behind your computer screen on this forum instead of out living your life. And leave it at that. Like, you know, if you're happy and living a robust life and having like fun with your friends and trying and showing up, then yeah, I think that right now though, in today's climate, like it's really divisive

and there's a lot of keyboard warriors. And I just think that like connection and having conversations, like I don't think that half the people that maybe hate other people on the internet, if they actually met at like a party and had a conversation and said, hey, like I think your career is super dumb. And you're like, cool, well, this is YXYZ. And then they're like, oh, well, maybe I understand you a little bit better now. But, yeah, it's tricky. It's like I think a lot – and I'm actually learning a lot at my company too. Like I'm building this brand and we're a small team

and I come from this sport. Send. Send. Yeah. I'm building send bars and we're a female owned company. And in order to actually succeed, like it's this team and it's this work. And it's also been this process of getting the right people on the bus and the right people off the bus. I'm a big fan of Jim Collins too. I can hear it. Wait, before you go further on team is like, you're in an individual sport. Yeah. Do you have teammates? Your climbing partner. Always. Nobody does it alone. No one does it alone. First principle. Nobody does it alone. I've said three first principles. You can have many first principles by the way, but nobody does it alone. I've said three first principles. You can have many first principles, by the way, but nobody does it alone. What makes a great teammate?

I think a great teammate, well, I've found that we all have our strengths and we all have our weaknesses. And so if your teammate can fill out your weaknesses and bring those strengths and carry it, and also I just think communication and open candor like you don't want to surround yourself with your climbing partner with your business partner with any of it with yes people like I grew up with an eastern European Romanian coach who was so harsh like he would walk around with this stick and be like shut up and climb or I'll beat you with this stick it full disclaimer like never was touched. Like he was a wonderful person who just had like a hard ass mentality.

But like that was the feedback. Like I won my first junior nationals and I was the only person in juniors to like get to the top of my climb and that's like to send it. And none of my other competitors did. So I won. And the first thing he told me was what I did wrong. And that was like what I was used to. But I think that, you know, there's gradients to it.

So you've got this other thing that wouldn't show up necessarily easily on audio. But you've got a intense vibration that comes forward. Just when you're like, he's this, it kind of like, can you believe it? There's an intensity. I want to track down this zest that you have, this fire, this spark. That part, I want to understand. Does any of those three words resonate with you? Spark. That part I want to understand. Does any of those three words resonate with you? Spark. That you have that. I think spark comes from my curiosity. Growing up, I didn't think that I would have any sort of,

I didn't know what a career in climbing was. You didn't have a grand vision. I don't think so. No. I didn't either. I think it's nice when people do. And there's good science around the power of it. We actually teach it. But I didn't have it. It doesn't mean you have to have a vision for it to be true. But so how did you navigate without this grand vision, which is cool? I keep being surprised. But you know what's interesting? I didn't know criticism in my life until I moved from New York City to Boulder. Wait, but your coach told you all the things you did wrong,

but they were not critical of you. Yeah. I didn't know the noise of the internet so much until later. Got it. And I and I guess the only reason I say that this connects is because I was so busy doing me that I didn't really think about what the haters were saying. And I've had haters like my entire life, like since I was like a young kid. What do they say? Um, what are the ones that you remember that stung? Yeah, the ones that sting are that I'm not genuine to the sport, that I even have haters who question my success, even down to like my own morals,

which I would say that I think hurts the most because I know what I've done and I've known how hard I work and how much I show up. And like my accolades within my sport are like the things that I'm very proud of. Why earlier in the conversation did you pull them down? Is that to avoid being in the line of fire? When I asked you, when I said something favorable and you're like, yeah, and you kind of pulled down your accolades, is it to avoid the line of fire or is it something else? Because

I don't think that I'm like the best climber in the world. I'm not like fair, you know, I've like, I've had success and I've had my accolades. And I guess that's the differentiator that I say is like, there are so many incredibly talented climbers in the world. And like, I've had a really loud, like successful career in my sport. And like, I've had a really loud, like successful career in my sport. And that comes down to the full package of who I am. Like, I'm not going to sit here and not say like, yeah, I'm marketable. I know how to speak. I know how to tell an audience what I've done. I know how I've had like a business savvy to my career and knowing like align with the right partners, create films around my projects, like and projects are climbs like expeditions or, you know,

sport climbing objectives, like these different categories within my sport. I've known how to like build a career in a very niche sport. And I think that that's like an innate skill that I've had that I didn't have formal training on. I've just kind of leaned into. So I started climbing and I was 98. In 1998. 1998. And I built my career like the way that you used to get sponsored in climbing would be like you'd have this success in a competition or outside or something like that.

Then you'd be written about in a magazine, like a little climbing magazine or something. And then you'd like take a clipping and then you'd put it into like a resume book. And then you'd go to this trade show, which was like the outdoor industry trade show. And it happened like once a year in August. I think think it was august it was normally in salt lake city and then you'd like walk this trade show floor and like go and literally meet companies pitching yourself pitching yourself yeah and then you'd like say like have a shoe sponsor where they'd like my first sponsor at 12 like i was was not, I was getting like, maybe it was like some money for coming first on a podium

and like down to third place. And that was going into like my piggy bank. It was not like I was like making a living off of climbing, but that was the early days of like, I got sponsored through like this very, like it was like word of mouth. And then it wasn't until 2012 when I entered the internet and I think that the internet was then like very new and so I'm

I can't I do think that there's a correlation of like that stretch of around like 2012 to 2016 when the internet started to gain traction social Social media. Social media. The internet was around. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the clarification. Like I like signed up for Instagram when I was, I think a sophomore, no, a freshman in college, probably like 2012. So yeah, you hit the beginning stride of social media as you were young, which means that your identity would be easily influenced by this loud narrative about what they like and don't like, they. And so it's complicated. It's really complicated.

But it was such a privilege too because I look at social media and I think of a sport like climbing. You were able to get some a fan base a community of whatever that you would describe it yeah and a voice and a voice yeah because all of a sudden you're not relying on a magazine you're relying on telling your own story too and having a direct line to people that you may never meet what What do you say to yourself to ready yourself to push into something that's hard? So in climbing, you're often in pain. Like something hurts.

Your shoes are two sizes smaller than your street shoe size. Your fingers are bleeding. And a key thing that I've learned is like, as soon as you start to feel pain, you have to think about it as helping you do what you're doing. And I don't know if that sounds masochistic or what, but like when my fingers are bleeding, I'm like, and I'm in my

flow state, I feel the grittiness of the rock underneath my fingers and I feel connected. And I feel like I can then translate it into this feeling of just like connectedness. So how does that relate to what you say to yourself to ready yourself to do something that could involve a lot of pain? Or that you know for sure this is going to be a tough one? I like mantras like just go for it. Or like something that I say a lot is like we go we go very cool what are you doing it's like yeah i don't know i'm like i'm thinking about all these times like wait hold on what did you just do though smile yeah there was like there was like a huge opening

that you just felt because it's such an empowering phrase. Because when you refer to yourself as we, it's like me, myself, and I, we're going to do this. And like sometimes on climbs, you do have your climbing partner, but it can be very solo feeling too. I love this insight. There's good science around the way we speak to ourselves. I'm going to go. Come on now, Sasha, go. We go. I've never heard. And so the, come on, Sasha, let's do this. As you're speaking to yourself, according to research is more powerful than I can do this. So the third person is actually, but you're actually extracting level, which is, this is

what innovators do. Okay. Well, I can't take full ownership of it. I had a trainer in New York named Kevin Peretti, who I worked with through college. And he, he always said, we go, we go. And then it became this mantra of mine. So I adopted it from him. Mom belayed you. So a young girl and a woman in predominantly, you know where I'm going, a male sport. Is that a fair statement, a fair premise? Yeah. And then tell me what that is like and then what you've had to navigate around, what you've had to navigate through, like what, what is that like for you? Cause there's a barrier breaking piece here too.

So can you open that up a little bit? Where do I start? How many more minutes do we have? I want to learn. I don't know if everything that I've gone through is because of my gender, and it might be. But I think that women, my journey in climbing has gone through criticism about what are her intentions. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas

that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions.

I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY. Again, that code is FINDINGMASTERY at i irestore.com slash finding mastery for exclusive savings. Finding mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all.

That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from.

So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is Finding Mastery for 25% off

and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Meaning, does she love climbing? Does she love climbing? Which is so ridiculous. I'm like, guys, I think we love climbing. We love climbing.

Yeah, me, myself. Since the age of six, you've been grinding. Yeah, and I love it. Like, it's like, it's been a formative part of me. And then another aspect is the reattribution or the attribution of success. Being like, oh, she has her career because she's a cute blonde. No, I work my ass off. And I also, like, have done things.

Not everything. There's a lot of people who are better athletes than me. And I'll always say that. But like, I've done some things. Let's see. The questioning of me and like my ethics and everything like that. I don't, I know a lot of female athletes have gone through that. I know a lot of female athletes that have gone through that. I don't know any male athletes, so I don't know if that's a genderized thing or what. Oh, and climbing is something that is fun that's pretty ubiquitous. It's like back to the subjective grade scale of things. Something can be called a 514, and the first person that does the climb says it's a 514. But the next person, say you go and climb it, and you say, or maybe actually on the internet exists too, you could not climb it.

You could just say, oh, I hear that climb is easier. And that often happens too. I hear that's a 512. She claimed it. She claimed a 514, but really it's a 512. That happens often. Have you claimed one? A 514?

Yeah. You have? Climbed 514. I've claimed 514. I've climbed 514. Yeah. I've climbed 50 514s. Actually more than 50.

And how many have you claimed? Like first ascent? First ascent, yeah. First female ascent, a lot. Let's see. One climb that I claimed a 514, for instance, was in South Africa. And I named it Nelson Mandela's middle name, Roli Lala. And the only reason that I did that was because during the time he was in the hospital,

and it was like, you could feel that fervor of how much everyone loved him. And I, I, I did this like attribution, you know, just like a nod to him. And then it was downgraded to a five 13 D which is the level below a five 14. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of that. Okay. I think there's so much more to talk about and learn about the gender barrier breaking and experience. But to honor time, I want to bring Tommy up. Okay. The legend Tommy Caldwell. And he sends a note. And the note was just about how much he appreciates how you approach climbing. And so it was super favorable. And then he says, she would be the one person that could run for office. Has she ever thought about that?

So it was super favorable about your work ethic, about your skill set, about how he likes. I think you guys have not climbed before. We haven't done it? It would be my dream. Come on, Tommy. I don't tell me about this time I'm working on El Cap. I mean, like if you would just come up for a day to experience it with me, it would be so cool. Okay. So it was a two part question. That's right.

Are you, you spent the summer at El Cap last year and you want to know if you're going back this year? Yeah. I have two months. Great. Locked. Come on, Tommy. Okay. So I want a picture of you two climbing. Yeah. Okay. Like that'll be fun. We're going to have to send this episode. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay, good. And then the second is like, have you ever thought about, this was meant to be uber complimentary. Have you ever thought about guiding a country or guiding like a bunch of people. And I now know why he was asking it. You're clear, you're open, you're honest, you're reflective in a way that allows space to explore.

You obviously understand development of skill. You've got sensitivities to the gender nuances of breaking barriers. And like, I understand why he's asking the question. And I think this would be a high compliment. So you're going back. Yeah, I'm probably blushing right now because I, yeah. This is Tommy saying it, right?

Yeah, it's Tommy. He's a hero. As a fun moment, have you ever thought about running for office or taking a position? I think that the beauty of life thus far for me is like everything's open. I don't want to say no. I think that right now I don't even like to talk about politics because it's really divisive. And I think that I'd love to learn and continue to learn through the organizations that I

work with that are in large part bipartisan. I think that the work that I've done with Tommy when we go to Capitol Hill and when we do advocacy work is just so important by and large for our planet. And it's because, and I listened to your episode on board that ship with Tommy, by the way, that was crazy. I want to hear more about that. But I mean, they're so live time. Like we see it.

And it's the reason that I work with the Mountain Partnerships, which is an alliance of the UN. And it's the reason that I work with Protect Our Winters. Like we're surrounded tangentially. It's a great nonprofit. Yeah, it's amazing. And it's so important. I'm on the board of the Access Fund, which is such an important organization that's advocating for our public land usage, but also using climbing as this example of why we can have sustainable economy. And like the climbing economy that creates around the world, but also in places like our national parks, like it's so revenue driving. And one thing that I've learned about politics,

it's like a lot comes back to the dollar. And politicians do respond to like, oh, this is an economy. Now let's talk about it. The outdoor industry is a huge trillion dollar economy. And so we should be considering- Galvanize those folks. Galvanizing, yeah, and access in these places.

So to answer the question right now, like I have a lot on my plate. I'm learning how to be a good leader for Senbars. I'm really involved in my climbing career. I mean, I have this big, crazy, audacious goal on LCAP that's like still intimidating, but maybe Tommy can join me for a couple of pitches. Like, you know, all of this stuff. I see you pitching Tommy right now.

Just going back 15 years when you were pitching, you know, from the news clippings. Yeah, yeah. For a sponsor. So good. It's all exciting. So good. Like, I just want to say thank you. And I appreciate how you were able to bring who you are into this conversation, which

these are my favorite conversations, people that understand how to work from the inside out. And you cannot operate in environments of consequence without this understanding. So thank you for reminding us of the importance of working from the inside out, to be honest with oneself. And you are the cool kids that make the, for the rest of us, like, oh, she works, you know, on her psychology. She works with her emotions and she's amazing. Because of that, she's probably even more amazing than if she were to just kind of push it all down. So thank you for that. And, you know, I'll just, I'll just say to the listener, the viewer, a way to support Sasha is through Sendbar.

And so go check out Sendbar, go find her on social, give some likes, they're free. All right, Sasha, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. And I guess like on the departing note, I would say it's okay to not feel and be perfect. Like life is so dynamic and changing and the mental work is constant. And I really appreciate sitting down

and chatting with you about it. Awesome. Me too. Ditto. That was an epic conversation. Emma, who do we have next? Because these conversations are so good. So good.

But we do have Joanne Garbin next and she's talking all things innovation. Joanne is special now. So she wrote The Insider's Guide to Innovation. She's got some real chops on wrestling with that intersection between creativity and curiosity and how to create innovative cultures. And then she's using those same practices to take the spirit of innovation into her own life, her own challenges, flipping them into opportunities for both personal growth and success.

You're going to want to discover her insights on leading innovation, overcoming fear, and how we can all tap into our innate creativity to unlock the next version of ourselves. Definitely going to want to tune into this eye-opening conversation with Joanne Garvin. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to

findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same.

So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.