Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - "You Are Stronger Than You Think" — How An Olympian Runner Went Up Against One of the World's Biggest Brands | Kara Goucher

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

What does it mean to have power, courage and integrity? We throw those words around a lot when talking about athletes or people we admire. Many times it’s justified – but how many truly possess these traits even when the chips are down? Today on the podcast is a human that embodies those three words fully. Her name is Kara Goucher. You might recognize her as an Olympic runner, the third place finisher in the Boston and New York Marathons, and ranked as one of the fastest female distance runners in American history. That’s power.And, there's something even more notable to recognize her for – in 2019 and 2023 Kara was instrumental in exposing doping and sexual abuse at the Nike Oregon Project. She put her career and reputation on the line to go up against one of the biggest corporations in the world. That’s courage. And integrity. Full stop.  Kara put it all in writing in her newest book: The Longest Race: Inside the Secret World of Abuse, Doping, and Deception on Nike's Elite Running Team. Today we celebrate her career in endurance running and dive into the pain and controversy she experienced, the aftermath, and why she is an emblem for those three words: power, courage, and integrity. This is an emotional conversation, and we get into some pretty heavy topics -- but the light Kara represents is so much greater than the darkness she experienced. I hope you'll leave with the knowing that you too have the power to make a difference.I’ve been looking forward to talking to Kara for a very long time, and I’m excited to share her brilliance with you._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm not that special. Sure, I was a fast runner. That's great. I hate conflict. I hate fighting. But the one thing I have is what I experienced in the truth. You have that too. I didn't plan to fight Nike or fight Alberto.

I just wanted on the record what happened to make sure that it didn't happen to anyone else. You are stronger than you think. You can withstand more than you think. You can bear more than you think. Don't let fear hold you back from being the most true self that you can be okay welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm your host dr michael gervais by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Power, courage, and integrity. People throw those words around a lot when talking about athletes. Many times it's justified.

Today on the podcast is an athlete that embodies those three words fully. Her name is Kara Goucher. You might recognize her as an Olympic runner, the third-place finisher in the Boston and New York marathons, and ranked as one of the fastest female distance runners in American history. There's some power in there. And there's something else to recognize her for. It's where courage and integrity really come through. 2019 and 2023, Kara was instrumental in exposing doping and sexual abuse at the Nike Oregon Project.

Full stop, that's courage. She spoke truth to power. Cara put it in writing in her newest book, The Longest Race. Today we celebrate her career in endurance running and we dive into the pain and controversy she experienced, the aftermath, and why she is an emblem for power, courage, and integrity. I've been looking forward to talking to Kara for a very long time, and I'm really excited to share her brilliance with you. So with that, let's dive right into this illuminating conversation with Kara Goucher. Kara, I am so excited.

I've been waiting for four years to have this conversation. I originally pinged you in 2020, and I'm so excited to sit down with you. And so thank you for spending time with us today. So let me just start where we ought to start. How are you doing? I'm doing good, and I'm glad that we're doing this. I feel bad that it took four years, but I'm glad that we're actually going to have this conversation. Now, I know it seems ridiculous, but we're going to capture the opportunity. And so, thank you again. So, when you say I'm good, what does that mean to you? Life's good. My family's healthy. I'm, um, relatively healthy myself, you know, over multiple decades, one of the best in the world runners. And so does that mean that you're nursing old injuries, that you've got new ones that you're working through?

Or are they small little knickknack stuff that, you know, is kind of the aggravating part of ultra and just running in general. I mean, right now it's kind of knickknack because I just went on vacation with my husband and son and didn't work out and then came back and just jumped right back into it. But I do have some things that kind of are just I have to constantly manage. I need a knee replacement. I found out in 2016. So I've been sort of managing that for about eight years. And then also a couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with repetitive movement dystonia in my left leg. And so I have good days and bad days with that. But lately I've been like maintaining things and things are in a good spot. So I know that I know there'll be more bumps ahead,

but right now things are good. And yeah, I'm able to run a bit, which I'm happy about. I want to start at the top before we get into like the way that you've managed your career, both from a physical and a psychological perspective, but flat out, you are a dragon fighter and you're an inspiration to so many of us and you've changed sport for the better and it's going to continue to get better because of your voice and you use the most powerful weapon the most powerful weapon of all which is i think the hardest to yield which is honesty and so we're going to dig in to the story behind your newest book the longest raceest Race, which I read when it came out and I couldn't put it down. The way that you speak about one of the biggest scandals in sport,

in running, your experience in that and the abuse you experienced in it, it's remarkable. And so really well done. I want to save that bit for a little bit into the conversation because I'd like to start with something broader, which is your philosophy and your psychology and how you operate. And so are you ready for that? Yeah, sure. Okay. I'm not sure what to make of that, but what just happened for you in the way that you answered that? You know, I was a psychology major and I really struggled with performance anxiety my entire life. Like basically since I was younger and started winning races, I started to get really nervous and really talk myself out of performing how I should have performed. And it's something I struggled with my entire career. And I think even sometimes now, like even talking to you, I'm like, I tricked this guy into thinking like I'm important enough to talk to, right?

But so I've had, I've worked with the therapists basically since I was in high school off and on, and I really dove into sports psychology like big time. I mean, that was so important in my career. I would not have had a world championships of silver medal. I wouldn't have had Olympic teams podium at major marathons without that being a full part of my training. So it's just it's just interesting because I used to think it was a weakness and I was kind of embarrassed to talk about it. And then finally I was like, hey, everyone has their Achilles heel. This is mine. And I'm taking away some of its power by talking about it out loud. Oh, wait, you would think you would take away the power or the power of the stigma and people thinking, oh, care is a head case or, you know, you get labeled, you know, and I felt like, oh, this is my weakness, my weakness. And I'm so it's always there, even when I'm working on it. Like I have my tools that work that help me combat it. But I'm always, you know, I would be in the starting line of these major races. And I think, how did I get here? I'm from Duluth, Minnesota. I grew up on spam. I didn't know what organic was till I was like in my mid 20s. You know, like, I don't, how did I get here? I'm from Duluth, Minnesota. I grew up on spam. I didn't know what organic was until I was like in my mid-20s. You know, like, I don't, how did I get here? I'm racing against these just gazelles of athletes. And I would just really spiral before it even

started. And so I really had to work on that. But I didn't want people to know I was working on it because I didn't want them to know that I had this kind of weakness. And so, yeah, I kind of was embarrassed about it for many, many years. And then finally, I just sort of was like, I'm going to take away some of its power. I work with a sports psychologist twice a week. I work every day on different things to help me be a better athlete. And I'm just going to own it. And then no one can use it against me as a weakness because I'm already telling you about it. That power of the way you just said it and the fact that you were courageous enough to invest in something that had taboo at that time. So both ends of that are really awesome to hear. And it is people like you that are changing the way that the next generation is understanding

what they are capable of. And so when we think about your potential, I can't imagine when you think about mine or the listener, I can't imagine getting close to it without investing in one's psychology. I know that I've drank the Kool-Aid, if you will, as a sports psychologist, but I just can't imagine being as good as you possibly can be in life without having a sophisticated understanding of how you work, what your tripwires are, how to be agile, how to be more calm and confident, you know, how to use your mind to live well. And in that frame, well, first, do you agree with that? It sounds like you do. Oh, totally. I mean, in running, we talk about leaving time on the table. And that's what I feel when people tell me they don't work with a sports psychologist. I just feel like you're leaving time on the table. Like everybody has fears. Everybody has doubts. That's an inevitable part of life, but especially in running and especially in the marathon, when you're out there for over two hours, doubt creeps in. Your brain is telling

you, this is hard. Why am I doing this? This isn't my day. And it happens to everyone. I don't care how good or how fast you are. So I just feel like if you're not working on that, if you're not working on that, knowing your cues, knowing the way your body and your brain operates, then you're just leaving time on the table. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in.

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein barsars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Time on the table. It's cool. If you oversimplify a model and you say, to be great, I've got to have the physicalness,

I've got to have some technical chops, and I've got to have some mental skills. And you just think about those three, physical, technical, and mental. How do you allocate percentage of value? I mean, physical is really important. You have to put in the time and the work, right? Like there's just no way around it. You have to put in hours on your the work, right? Like there's just no, there's no way around it. You have to put in hours on your legs and, and in the weight room and sleeping, you know, the, the unsexy stuff that matters like actual sleeping and resting. Um, and then what

was the second one? Technical stuff like technical, like, uh, no, not, not necessarily equipment, but like technical meaning, um, the way that your foot is striking where, how you hold your arms, you know, your technique. Yeah. I think technique for me would be the smallest portion. Cause if you have a big engine and you're fit, you're going to be successful. That's more of what I would consider really fine tuning. Um, but the mental part, I, it is not 10%. A lot of people say the last 10% is mental.

It is so much more than that, in my opinion. In my opinion, it's like anybody can train really, really hard and well, not anyone, but a lot of people can train really, really hard and put in that time and that dedication. But if you haven't worked on this other side, there's just so much there. And especially in endurance sport where there's so much time alone in your head and so many reasons to doubt or to question what you're doing. It's just so important. Like I said, when I was at the top of my career, I was seeing someone twice a week. I had my little exercises I did at night.

I was thinking about it in training. You know, when the doubts crept in, I would think of my power word. And I just think it's so much more than 10%. I don't know if it's 50%, but it's definitely 30%. It's a lot. And I think in the order of hierarchy, it's like, of course, put in the physical work and get yourself fit. But then the next important thing is get yourself mentally ready for what you're about to ask yourself to do and in the moment that you're going to ask yourself to do it. And then the technical stuff, if you have time, you can clean that up. But that's going to be so minimal compared to the other two. And would you mind sharing some of the concrete trainings that you do on a regular basis?

Yeah. So I've worked as a psychologist for a long time. And so there's so many different things, right? There's different techniques. Some people love breathing techniques. I hated that. I would feel like I couldn't breathe because I'm trying to match your breathing. So I'm going to say what worked for me, but there are so many things out there.

The things that were really powerful for me were having a power word, that that word pulled me back to who I am and who I want to be. And I would usually pick a different word for each big competition coming up. Like to make my first Olympic team in 2008, I picked the word fighter. And then I would repeat it to myself when things got tough. And it would kind of like take me out of the worry and future think that I would do and remind myself like, no, I'm fighting. I'm going to be here. I'm fighting. I'm here to fight. So power words worked really well for me. Um, you know, mantras worked really well for me. The biggest thing that worked for me that was the best was, um, as athletes, we keep track of everything we do, right. Cause we want to be able to go

back and see what worked and what didn't work. So I religiously kept a training log, which I still keep, even though I just basically run for fun now. But I had a training log where I'd write down every detail of the day, what did I do in the weight room, what I do on the track, everything. But then I had a secondary journal. And in that journal, I'd have to write one thing that I did that was going to help me get to my goal. And sometimes it wouldn't be great. Like we all have bad days. So sometimes it would be hard to find the one thing that I did that was like pushing me towards my goal. But maybe it was like, I didn't feel well, but I didn't quit. Pace wasn't what I wanted, but I continued to move forward. And then there would be days where it'd be like, I totally crushed this workout. I'm at a new level of fitness. And for me to, it's one thing to hear

it from your spouse or your coach or your family, as you get close to the big race that you're gunning for to say, you're ready, you're ready to be here. But it's very different to go back and see it in your own writing. And like you reminding myself, oh yeah, I did do that. Oh yeah, I did fight through that. And that would really help me calm myself and really solidify to myself that I have done the work to be here. I deserve to be here. Like here it is for the last three months, I've written something every day and I know that I'm ready to do what I'm about to ask myself to do. That's what's up. So that was a second journal. That was not your training.

That was not my training. That was not your physical, technical, say it again. Yeah. They were, they were two separate journals. So I had like my training log and then I had what I called a confidence journal and they were together. I mean, like they weren't the same journal, but they were together. I'd like write my training. Then the last thing I would do before I turned the light out was write in my confidence journal. It sounds so simple. Most technical parts of sports psychology, the training part are really simple, like as simple as let's work on breathing in and breathing

out. Let's work on, you know, writing down how you, how you earned confidence today. Let's, let's be overly simplistic about building optimism. Like, you know, the three good things they're, they're so simple to do. And when you stack them on top of each other over time, you end up having this way about yourself where you're like, yeah, like I feel pretty strong from the inside out. And I think that you've earned the right in your words, like I didn't quit. I hear like, I do hard things. I don't give up. You've earned the right to say, oh yeah, perseverance. I understand that. I've earned it. And so from everything I've read and listened to for you in preparation for this conversation, you're the embodiment of perseverance, which means

sticking with things when it's hard. And maybe this is a segue into what you endured and what you had to put up with at the Nike Oregon Running Project. Can you maybe bring us into what happened, your experience there? And it's not as simple as it's all bad, but there were some really dark experiences. But if you just opened it up, your, your experience of that phase in your life. Yeah. Like you said, at first it was a dream come true. You know, my husband and I moved to Beaverton.

We were training on the Nike campus. We had, um, Alberto Salazar, one of the greatest American runners of all time as our coach. We had unlimited budget. So everything we could want was at our fingertips, equipment, everything like that. one of the greatest American runners of all time as our coach. We had unlimited budget. So everything we could want was at our fingertips, equipment, everything like that, training camps. And as a person who had struggled being injured before, we were having prehab, we were getting massage twice a week, we were getting ART therapy. It was just like this dream come true of like, I'm really truly going to get to find out how good I am. And there was a lot of-

ART being active release therapy? Yep. Active release therapy. So it's kind of like a trigger point on the muscles to just kind of let go of some of those hotspots, if you will. Yeah, totally. And just like where you're a little, you know, we all carry tension in different places and they can, they learn your body really well. They help you just stay ahead of the game so you don't get injured. Also, you know, working with a sports psychologist was paid for. I don't have to pay for that anymore. So many things that were just awesome. And, you know, for me, I really, we,

what's kind of funny is they recruited us to go there for my husband. There were no women on the team. The Oregon project. I love this part of your story. I love this part of your story. There were no women. It was never envisioned that there would be women. The project was about four years old at that time. And there was never a pathway of when are we going to include women. But they really wanted my husband. And so basically it was like, well, Alberto said, well, I coach high school boys. That's kind of similar to what you do. And I could coach you too. The funny thing is I wasn't.

Here's the thing. I wasn't even offended at the time because I was like, I get to be the first. I get to. Yeah, there you go. And you're getting access to all. I get everything. Everything. You're going to get like you're going to get the Nike experience.

Yeah, I'm going to get everything. And you weren't. I don't think you were winning at that time. Everything. You're going to get the Nike experience. Yeah. I'm going to get everything. And you weren't, I don't think you were winning at that time. You were just off pace from podium. Yeah. Well, I had done very well in college. I had won a few national titles and then I just really struggled. And even I had questioned like, what am I doing? And so my husband was a much bigger star. And so I wasn't offended by it. I was excited. I thought, you know what? This is a dream come true. And I'm going to be treated like everybody else. And I'm going to earn my spot here. And that is what happened essentially is that my husband and our coach ended up kind of butting heads. And then I got along really well with my

coach. And then I started to get better. And then I got along really well with my coach. And then I started to get better. And then he started to take a lot more interest in me. And it was over a seven year period. But I would say, you know, right away, we saw some things where he would kind of push the boundaries on stuff, but it was never anything major. It was like college NCAA violations because we had a teammate that was still in college. And so little things here and there, but nothing major. And then in the meantime, I'm like getting closer and closer to my coach. Looking back, of course, it was an unhealthy boundary that was crossed.

But I lost my father at a very young age, and he really was filling this role for me. You know, he would call my mom and tell my mom, I think Kara was brought into my life for a reason. I'm going to be that father figure for her. I saw him as that. You know, I would, I trusted him wholeheartedly. And so not only did I trust him with my training, but I would open up to him about stuff from my childhood and things like that.

And so I was just all in and I trusted him so much. And, you know, unfortunately, it ended up becoming more of an abusive situation where at the time I would not have used these words, but I've been educated since where I was sexually assaulted by him, which, you know, at the time I just made up as a, like an accident or a, you know, I was always trying to protect him in some way. But, you know, it, nothing was so obvious in the moment. I mean, obviously the sexual assault was, but I was able to tell myself and talk myself into a way where it was safe and it was okay. And it was just an accident. It's more looking back now at how I was treated and degraded and talked about. Now, all these years later, looking back, it's a very different picture.

But in the moment, no one's perfect. He's the gatekeeper to my dreams. And so I was really able to compartmentalize anything that made me uncomfortable or was going to take away from what my ultimate goal was, which was to become an Olympic champion. I just put it in a box and put it away. And I think I learned to compartmentalize at a really young age when my dad died and it helped me survive that situation. You just shared so much in the last three minutes. No, no, no, no. Because it's evidence to me how much work you've done, the way that you can so clearly understand how this was happening. And if we start at the beginning, it's like, I was really excited to get this experience.

And then it felt like, oh my goodness, this is what a great coach is. He sees all of me. He's got a relationship with my mom. He's connected to the exciting future that I could hold. We're very clear of what the goals are. There's a working relationship that's amazing. And I would imagine some of the boundary pushing stuff, it starts to get fuzzy. Like, is this what high performance is?

Is this like, is this how it happens? Like, of course we push boundaries. Of course we push edges. Like, is this breaking the rule or is this how high performance takes place? Like it's fuzzy in some respects. I mean, rules are rules, but we, we are trying to break the rules, break the times. We are trying to push past what anyone else has ever done or what we've ever done. So the best in the world are always right up in that gray space. And again, I'm not talking about ethical violations. I'm talking about performance barriers or perceived barriers. And so I totally get it. And then I get,

there's a gracefulness that you have when you say, you know, everyone makes mistakes and maybe, maybe he just made a mistake. And you're just to be concrete, we're talking about, um, it was not, um, sex. You did not have sex with him, but you were sexually assaulted by him. And it was during, according to what I read, it was during a massage. Is that right? Correct. Yeah. And so, which is odd that a coach would be giving a massage. How did you swear with that? Like, this is just what great coaches do?

He's an expert? You know, I did think it was weird when we first moved there because we had massage therapists that were a part of the program. But he would often, on training camps especially, just give us little massages. And he would, you'd just lay down in front of everybody and he would pull your shorts way up and expose you and just massage you. And my first year there, I thought, oh God,

this is awkward. People can see me. But it was so normalized, like no one said anything. And, you know, he was massaging everybody, not just me. And so I remember thinking, wow, he is just so dedicated. I've never had a coach that's this dedicated. That's how dedicated he is. He's going to give me a 20-minute massage right now because I just did a hard workout because the masseuse isn't coming till tomorrow or whatever it was. So it's interesting looking back because definitely the first year, my husband and I were like, that's different.

That's different that he is touching us like that and doing that. But then it just became so normal. And also, I'm thinking, who am I to question this? He won New York. He won Boston. He's an incredibly successful- Yeah, he's got a legacy. There's a building of him on the Nike campus.

I mean, he knows what to do. I don't, I've never been in, I've never been as far as he, you know, I've never achieved the things that he's achieved. And so it's funny how I just, my initial reaction was that's weird. And then within a couple months, it was just totally, totally normal. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus.

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So let's just look at or see if we can open up the intuition and the rationalization part. So your intuition, you and your husband both were like, this is weird. And then the rationalization is, but who am I? And it's against this giant of success and this conglomerate of excellence. So who am I? So there's some research around folks that survived an abduction. And so meaning they were something weird, but I didn't want to scream. I didn't want to make a scene. I didn't want to be the weird one.

And so I kept my mouth shut. I'll never do that again. You know, like, because if they would have made a scene, maybe that perpetrator would have been startled and run away or at worst gaslit the person like, whoa, what are you doing? But they didn't. And so I'm wondering if you were to play it back again, how would you navigate that? Because I think you and I are speaking right to the listener that understands that even if it wasn't a sexual assault, a verbal assault, an embarrassment, there's so many things that we could point to that I think all of us have felt. So if you could open that up,

how would you do it differently or what did you learn that you'd like to pass forward? I think kind of what you said about intuition, I really stopped listening to mine. I stopped trusting it. I, you know, I started to just ignore it. Anything that was made me slightly uncomfortable, I convinced myself somehow I was the one that I'm the one that's, I'm the only one that thinks this is weird. I'm obviously the one that's wrong. And that happened so many times and it just kept building, right? And it got to the point where at the end, he could say whatever he wanted to me. That would be wildly inappropriate and I wouldn't even flinch. I would be uncomfortable, but I would just, even though I know that's wrong. So I guess what I would just say is to really trust yourself.

If something makes you uncomfortable and gives you that feeling of, Oh, I really don't like that. It's okay to say, no, thanks. I don't want massage review or whatever it is. But honestly,

I don't feel like I could have said that in the moment because I felt so lucky to be there. And I was just, you know, I was reminded of that, you know, if intentional, it's more insidious. But for many predators, everything is very intentional is the predators in general will make you feel a certain way. So not the surprise type of predator that I was talking about just a

few moments ago, but the grooming type predators will make you feel a certain way. And so make it difficult to stand up and to use your voice against it because of the perceived nature of the quote unquote grooming. And so I can also imagine that you didn't want to say anything because you didn't want to be ungrateful. You didn't want to be less than anything other than radically committed to your goals. You don't want to be soft. You didn't want to be weak. You didn't like, there's a lot of words that we could put in there. Yeah. I mean, you just described it all, you know, I don't want to be complaining. I'm, I'm supposed to be one of the guys, so I just need to act like one of the guys. Also, you know, he, also a little bit of fear of what, well, who am I going to tell? If I tell Nike I'm uncomfortable with him, then I'm going to lose my contract. And now I'm going to lose my opportunity, right?

So it just felt complicated. And it just became to a point where I just didn't even allow myself to acknowledge anything that was uncomfortable. I just note it, push it to the side. I'm never going to think about that again because it's not helpful to me. It's not helpful in my survival. It's not helpful in what I want out of my life and how much I've dedicated to this. So I just can't deal with that. Let's talk about sacrifice because early in my career, I didn't know better, but early in my career, I fundamentally believed in that. I think the majority of the community would nod their head to this is that we, and I believe that high performance began where wellness ended, that there was a radical sacrifice to well-being and wellness if you really want to push on the edges of potential. And I'd like to say that that was wildly wrong, but there is still some fuzzy area in it.

So I think you can have both. I think that you can have this amazing base of well-being that allows you to soar higher, to push further. However, the environments that I'm in that are truly extraordinary when it comes to sustaining excellence right at that edge, world-class, most of the people's lives are a bit of a mess. And I'd love to get your take on it. You have your unique experience, but your experience is also – what's the right way to capture this? I think there's so many of us that have sacrificed so much for what we think we want, but we've given away so much of our integrity and self by not putting a tall flag in the ground like

that is not okay. And I'm not doing that. And I'm not running on a broken knee or a concussion or a whatever. So my question is like, how are you thinking about that blurred boundary? Or maybe it's very clear for you. And I want to learn all of it between the base of wellbeing and the edge of high performance. I think you have to be willing to go to some dark places to be an elite athlete, or just talking about my own circumstance. I would be really willing to go to dark places in training, especially in races, to just ignore everything my body is telling me to accomplish

the goal at hand. I think back to that time though, and even when I was accomplishing big goals, a lot of them felt very hollow because I hadn't enjoyed the process to be there. And my family wasn't really a part of situation, I was telling you before lot, but, but because my loved ones were a part of it. And because I trusted everyone that was invested in the ride, it, I loved it so, so, so, so much. And even though it didn't end the way we all had hoped it, that was much more fulfilling than anything I had done prior. Okay. So was that the story that you shared when you're crying in the shower crying and what a great place that is to cry? I can't tell. That was at the 2012 Olympics, I think. That was a really good. Well, let's talk about that in a minute, but okay. I want to be really

clear though, that abuse is not tolerated in elite sport. Like, so I, I know what I had, what I just shared that, that edge between high performance and wellbeing. And I, I mean, nothing about abuse here. And because I, I fundamentally believe you can have full integrity, speak your mind and still be your very best. Yes. Of course. And I think what you and I, just to be clear for the listeners, what we're talking about is the dark places that you talked about, the commitment to push to the edge and sometimes ignore, sometimes sacrifice a lot to be on the road as much as you were on the road, meaning running. Carrie Walsh Jennings, I don't know if you know Carrie Walsh Jennings. She's one of the most celebrated beach volleyball players ever.

Five games, five medals, four golds, and one bronze. And I had the opportunity to work with her after her second and onward. And she says, I said, okay. So we sat down and this is all public. So I'm not sharing something out of turn. There was a conversation about what do you want to work on? She says, oh, I know how to be the best in the world. And I've done it across two cycles. Um, however, like I want to do it differently. I want to be part of my family and I wanted, I do not want to have another gold and, and do it the way that I've done it before, which is

like stranger to my spouse, stranger to my family. Yes. Do you think that it is possible to be on the world stage and have a dual path in that way? Yeah, I do. Look, my coach on the second half of my career, the end of my career, he wasn't easy on me. He wasn't like, oh, whatever you want to do today, you can do today. He held me to task. This is what you're doing. This is what it takes. But it was all for a purpose of running fast. He wasn't criticizing who I was as a human. He wasn't questioning my marriage. He wasn't making sexual comments about me, right? It was like I

trusted him to push me to be the athlete I need to be. And it was a healthy, like, that's what I needed. I'm not going to be able to push myself on my own. I know myself. I need someone that I trust to push me to be the best I can be. But at the same time, he didn't care if I wanted to bring my son somewhere or if my mom was visiting and she was going to come by the track. That was welcomed. Like Kara as a whole is welcomed. When I left practice, he was like, okay, I'll see you in two days. You know what to do until then. Instead of constantly checking in and telling me that, you know, other people are going to tire me out, that's going to cost me energy. And so I lost so many years, you know, with my family. And it's hard, you know, some of the biggest moments,

they weren't there and they weren't even welcomed in, you know, and was it worth it? I mean, if I could go back, I'd do it totally differently. I wouldn't, I would never shut them out the way I did. I would never do that if I could do it again. Yeah. What are you feeling right now? I'm feeling sadness for just who I was then. I know I accomplished a lot. I've been through enough therapy that I know I did the best that I could do. But I still sometimes feel sad looking back about all of the things that should have been celebrated that were literally dreams come true that I didn't share with the people I loved. And that's just, I don't know. I don't know why it's making me cry.

It just did. How much of what you're feeling right now is about bringing up really hard times, the abuse bit, and how much of it is about, no, no, I just, what, what I'm, what I'm most sad about is that I didn't, I didn't know how to pull my, my family unit into my world. Maybe it's both. It's mostly the second, which is just that the program I was in, it was very, it's us and that's it. And you don't need anybody else. Everybody else is a distraction. And, you know, like I only got to have Adam because he was on the team. Otherwise he wouldn't even really be in, in the group. Yeah. Could you imagine if you, if you're like completely

alone in the experience? No. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so mostly I just look back and I feel sad that that happened. I feel sad for the person that I was and that she didn't feel like she could say, no, I don't want to do this. Not like this. What does that mean, Kara, that I'm sad for the person I was? Because I love my family. I love being a full human. I love working really, really hard, but enjoying the success that comes from that.

And I feel like the best years of my career, I didn't get to do that. I didn't get to be my full self. I didn't get to truly celebrate. Everything was like, yeah, you got third at Boston, but you should have won. Yeah, you got second at Worlds, but you could have won. And we never just took a beat to say, I just got second in the world at the world championships, you know? Um, and I just don't want that for other people. Oh, look at that. Yeah. That, that specifically, before we get to the second part, that specifically when I was, I did, um, I reread the audio or listened to the audio version, which you did a great job there as well. You can really feel, you brought feeling into it.

But I was blown away by just how quickly your coach, post-success, post-race, a PR personal record. And there was like embarrassment or shame or ridicule or a whole host of emotions. And the tactics to bring those forward was like, I can imagine you would, you would inevitably be like, I'm not good enough. It's not good enough. I need to do more to have approval from what you said, my, my father figure, my coach, the representation of my future. And so what that was like, if anyone's reading that that is a coach, there are better ways. Yeah. And I think if you have a high-performing athlete, no one's going to be harder on them than themselves. And so it's like, let's take a moment. If, if the race was a disappointment, let them mourn it. Let's learn

from it. But I think piling on when the athlete is down, it's just, it's so hard. And then I felt like I was always trying to make up, let me win this. It'll make up for that. Let me do this. It'll make up for that. Let me run this time. It'll make up for that. Instead of ever just being present, racing, enjoying what I was doing. I mean, you know, you've worked with so many athletes. There is enjoyment in the process, in the schedule, in the ritual. There's enjoyment in that, or there should be. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Let's just be really clear. There's something here that you love deeply because to be as good as you are takes time. And it's a lot of time under tension. And if you don't love the purity of it, if you don't love it in and of itself without tension, and you don't love it with tension, you just can't get enough time under your belt to be even close to what you're capable

of. So there's joy in running somewhere for you. It sounds like you've got that back. Yeah. I mean, I love running. And I think it's because the way it started was it was time with my grandpa. My grandpa was a lifelong runner. He wasn't a racer. He ran for like really he ran for mental health, which we discussed a lot, lot later in life because that's not what they called it back then. And I felt joyful when I ran with him.

It was time with him. I feel joy. I felt joyful as the youth running in the woods by my house. All those things made me feel good and happy. I liked the way it felt to push my body. I liked the friendships I formed. And I lost a lot of that for many, many years because it became only about results. But I was lucky enough to be able to really rekindle that and remember, why am I doing this?

How did this all start? And it all started from a place of joy and happiness. I pulled a quote from your book. And let me read this to you and for the listener to really understand this other type of insidious coaching that took place. So this is in the Beijing Olympics. I ran a new PR, 30-55. Is that correct? Yes. And you took 10th place. Though I'd run the fastest I had ever had in my life,

I still felt like a loser. It was hard to tell the difference between where my sweat ended and my tears began. Then your coach says, you're not a track athlete. You're not fast enough. Then your mindset coach pulled up and said, you quit. I mean, that's, tell me how you want to be coached you know that was the my first olympic games i still had another event left this is literally my childhood dream coming true i didn't medal that was the hope we all had but i ran the fastest time of my life by at the time, I think over 20 seconds. And it was just, it just wasn't good enough. And I just felt like so sad, you know, in that moment I needed them to say, we know you

didn't get what you wanted, but here's what you did right. You ran the best time, you had the best time of your life. You fought the whole way. It's not what we had all hoped for, but you can't do better than the best you've ever done. But I didn't get any of that. All I got was you're not fast enough to be here. You quit. You didn't keep fighting. And I felt like, why am I even here? Why am I here? That's exactly it. Like you weren't seen and what you did do was not good enough. By the way, that's not good sports psychology.

Yeah. Full stop. I wouldn't even say that's good coaching. You know, so that is, I'm sorry to hear that. Like as a practitioner in the field, like that sounds like it's as bad as it gets. Yeah. All that being said, we've painted the picture of how hard it is and was for you. am more interested in how you navigated to use your voice and to express the courage to do so even when like I don't know many the many the the these tell all type books are done way after the

fact and you're doing it real time while you're still running, competing. I think, again, Dragon Slayer, here you are. It is rad. And so what was it like when the book came out? Because you're still ripping. You're still doing your thing. You're still in the community. So what was it like when your book came out? The night before, I was definitely panicking and wondering why I decided to do this and why did I decide to share everything. The night before, it's already been printed. Yeah. I was really just couldn't sleep, very anxious. The next morning, I was on Good Morning America, but it had already been filmed. And my husband said, do you want to watch it?

And I said, heck no. And I went for a run. And I just came back home. And I just felt at peace. every day since then, I have let go more and more of any anger or any self-blame. And I've been more and more at peace. You said something earlier about telling the truth. I don't consider myself a whistleblower. I don't consider myself brave. I just told the truth of what I saw and what I went through. And a lot of it I carried inside because I was still trying to protect this person, even though he didn't deserve my protection, but I still was trying to protect him. But that was

drowning me. I was dying from that. And so, yeah, there were days where it was overwhelming. A lot of people know my business. A lot of people have opinions. They think I'm a liar or an actress. But in general, it has been amazingly healing since the book came out. That is awesome. I know you must have been terrified about the backlash or what are people going to think of me, which is really what I wrote my first book about, you know, the fear of people's opinions, FOPO. Yeah, it's true though, right? Yeah. I was worried I was going to lose my job. I was worried I was going to lose my job.

I was worried that I wasn about were my good friends who I've known for a long time, but who didn't know about some of this stuff. And would they look at me with pity? That was the thing, honestly, that I feared the most was people looking at me and feeling bad for me because I didn't want that at all. That's interesting. In your book that did not, I did not have that response at all. Um, I thought like all I could see was courage and, um, like a revolutionaries, a revolutionist and somebody that was going to, um, you know, the thing about being a truth teller is that when you're honest you are completely rooted and grounded and i saw somebody that was changing the sport changing coaching changing um how we can all be better by speaking truth by coaching better by speaking truth, by coaching better, by exposing corrupt mindset. Now, maybe that's too strong a word, by acknowledging the way that disrespect to the doer takes place by a bunch of different people. And so what I want to bring forward again one more time

is how do you speak to somebody who is listening to you that knows your story and says, yeah, but you know what? I don't have what she has. I couldn't do that. I couldn't take on Nike. I couldn't take on one of the best coaches, one of the big bosses in my career. I couldn't do that. Again, she's special and different. And of course, she's an

Olympian. Who am I? How do you speak to them? If I can do it, you can do it. I hate conflict. Yeah, but you're different. I'm not. I'm not. Listen. Wait a minute. You've got medals. You are the fastest in the world. You are extraordinary in every part. You've written a book. You're a truth teller. You're a dragon slayer. Yeah, you're different. I can't do that. Of course you can. Listen, I'm not that special. Sure, I was a fast runner. That's great. I hate conflict. I hate fighting. I avoid it. But the one thing I have is what I experienced in the truth. You have that too. I didn't plan to fight Nike or fight

Alberto. I just wanted on the record what happened to make sure that it didn't happen to anyone else. And anybody can do that. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but anybody can do that. Trust me, if you could have seen me when I was younger, you would never believe that of all my siblings, I'm the one that has had this attention because I just want everything to be peaceful. I don't want to fight with you. But at the end of the day, I care more about the truth and I care more about this not happening to anyone else than I do about having to face some conflict.

And you can do it too. But you did it in a more courageous way than I could do it because you went public. And I'm having a hard time even telling my spouse. I'm having a hard time even telling my best friend or my parent. And you, look, you did it publicly. I could never do that. Well, first of all, you don't necessarily have to do it publicly, but I just want this person to know that I didn't tell either for a very long time. I didn't tell my husband what happened in those massages. I didn't tell my family. I kept it all inside. I thought, who will ever believe me, especially since it happened more

than once? No one's going to believe me. No one. By the way, I love that you put it in there that it happened more than once. Yeah. I love that because you could have held that back. But you went for the full honesty. Yeah. And the question is, you know, like, okay, it happened. You bit your tongue. Why did you get back on the table two weeks later? And I think you've already answered it.

Like you wanted to protect him. You thought maybe it was a mistake. Maybe it was an accident, you know? And who am I? But when it happened the second time, how did that new information, how did you work with that new information? The second time was worse because it's happening again. But instead of thinking, I can't believe he's doing this, I was thinking, I can't believe I put myself in this situation. I was blaming myself once again. And that- So well said. So well said.

That is why it's so hard to talk about these things because there's so much shame. I chose to get back on the table. I did that. I did that. And I'm not saying that it's not his fault at all. I'm just saying like, that's how I felt. And there's a lot of shame involved. And that was another reason why it was very important to me that that was in the book.

If this could happen to me, who is the Olympian, who is winning races, it can happen to anyone. And I don't want anyone to feel like they did something wrong. My life looked perfect on the outside and it happened to me. So it could happen to anyone. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our

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Oh, I see you now there that you are writing from real truth. And that's when I, like my hair stood up. I'm like, hero status. Because you did not, again, I said it earlier, you didn't have to put that in. And the fact that you did made you that much more vulnerable

and in return that much more courageous. And so I'm so stoked to know you. Just to host this conversation, it's meaningful for family members of mine, myself included. And so I think you downplay, but you made it available. You downplay your courage, but you make it available that I too can access my truth and I can speak from that place. And it's harder than it sounds. And so maybe we could just highlight like you've been writing for a long time and maybe that was part of the work. You've been doing so much internal work that at some point, even though you held it back

from your husband and your family members and whatever, that when you came forward and you wrote about it, maybe it was just a little bit easier because you'd done that internal work. Is that fair? Is that a stretch? No, that's fair. I was really seeing a therapist and really working on myself. Did you tell your therapist? I did. Not then. Oh, not when it happened. No, because my therapist then was paid by Nike on the dime, a member of the team. Well, he's not licensed.

Well, I didn't know that, but no, he is not. Yeah. So, okay. But you didn't know that at the time. You thought that this was supposed to be my, my person. And, um, but it really wasn't because you saw through that, you know, who, who he was paid by, but, and you didn't have a second person. Of course you didn't because you're not supposed to, that's, that's not a best practice. Okay. So when you went back to therapy,

um, did you bring that forward in therapy? I did, but it was much later. It was after I had left the team. I see. Honestly, the first time I spoke about it, I immediately regretted it. I was in a meeting preparing for a hearing where I had to testify against my coach multiple times across different cases. And I just said it, and I don't know why I said it. I had hinted earlier. I said, well, there was two occasions that were very uncomfortable and there was no follow-up. And I thought, okay, well, that was the window and it's gone. And this was at least a year later, and someone did follow up, and I just said it. I'm not going to lie. I was so upset that I said it because I hadn't talked to anyone about it.

I was driving home. My teeth were chattering. I knew now I had to tell Adam, I'm not ready for this. I am not ready for this. I can laugh, but it was horrible. It was horrible. You know, it was just like, why did I do that? Why did I say that? Why did I tell this person that? And then that of course led me. Oh, I had a moment where as a licensed psychologist, one of the first things that by law we're required to do is there's like a handful of agreements that we need to make explicit. And one of those agreements, if you're going to commit suicide, we break confidentiality. If there's sexual abuse, elder abuse, fill in the blanks, we break confidentiality. And oddly enough, to adults, if there's physical abuse between two adults, it's not reportable.

Now, if it's child abuse, it is, of course, reportable, mandated reportable. And so I said this to a young athlete. It was just kind of standard protocol. And we started getting into the meat of our discussion. And she just listened. She's like, okay, yeah, I understand. And then it was a good conversation and her and her dad come back. She was a 14 year old softball player and her and her dad came back the next session and I could tell that she had something on her mind. And so I said, hey dad, do you mind giving us a little bit of

time? I'll pull you back in at the end of the mind. And so I said, hey, dad, do you mind giving us a little bit of time? I'll pull you back in at the end of the session. And sometimes parents are in, sometimes they're not. And so she said, what were those three things that you talked about? I said, oh, to myself, I was like, oh, okay. Mandated reporting for suicide. And she goes, yeah, no, not that one. And I said, mandated reporting if there's elder abuse. She goes, no, not that one. And I said, mandated reporting if there's elder abuse.

She goes, no, not that one. And I thought to myself, oh, she just walked into, she's walking right into it. You know, does she really want to, does she want to go there? And I didn't want to trick her in any way. And she says, yeah, I need to talk. I need to talk about the other one. And then I could see exactly what, this is the first time somebody reported to me, this was like 20 years ago. And I could see exactly in her what you experienced, which is, oh God, no, I don't. I don't want to actually

bring it up. No, can I take this back? And it was like too late at that point. And so I said, I just shared with her like, look, we're going to take care of you. And the adults in the room did. And I don't know how you would have felt about it at that time. She was pissed. She was pissed. I asked her what happened and she told me it was her coach and she, she shared all of the details and it was insidious. And, um, she says, uh, actually, I don't, I don't want to talk about it anymore. And can we not tell my dad? So when you say like, I wanted to take it back, it's a, I think it's a universal type of thing. There's this sense of relief and there's a sense of fear of what's next. And it's that

combination of the two that is like a, like a rollercoaster for sure. Yeah. I mean, the next day you saw this said, we have to report it to safe sport. And I said, I don't want to talk to anyone. I was never planning on ever telling anyone this. So safe sport calls me and I said I don't want to talk to anyone I was never planning on ever telling anyone this so safe sport calls me and I am shaking and hysterical the whole time like during during the interview yeah I don't want to report this I don't want to talk about this um was it because was it the embarrassment part was it the shame part was it the I don't want to get anyone in trouble part it was all of that. I was ashamed because I felt like I had responsibility because it happened more than once. I didn't want it to be public because I didn't want him to have that label. It was everything. And I just remember at

the end of the call, she said, do you have someone you can talk to right now? And I said, no. And I said, you're ruining my life. Yeah. How about it? Yeah. It would not be the first time she's heard that or he heard that. Yeah. And then with SafeSport, you do choose to move forward and I chose not to. And then I got myself into therapy. And over time, I realized that I did actually, in fact, with SafeSport, you do choose to move forward. And I chose not to. And then I got myself into therapy. And over time, I realized that I did actually, in fact, want to see this through. So it was another year or so later that I actually went. So SafeSport, they have a system where they reach out to you three times afterwards. I just blow them off.

Fuck you. I don't want to be a part of this. Yeah, I'm good. And yeah, once they had finally moved on and then I had started my own healing and then I thought, oh man, I'm part of the problem, not the solution by not doing this. Okay, Dragon Slayer, what do you really, really, really, really want? Out of life? Yeah, like you've got a full life now, okay? And when you get quiet and you connect to your heart, what do you really, really, really want?

I just want peace with my family. I mean, it's so simple, but that's what I want. You know, it's kind of funny. I got offered a job this fall. And I said, you know, it really doesn't make sense for my family and I to move at this point. My son is in seventh grade. And the person said, hey, there's amount of money for anyone.

And I thought to myself, what would I want if I had more money than I could have ever imagined? And you know what I want? I want what I have right now. I just want to be in the sport that I love, with my family, super involved in my life again like they are. And that's what I want. Oh, my God. That, to me, feels like success.

Yeah. So there's an Olympic team I'm working with right now that just got the nod that they're going to the games. And I've been asking them a bunch. I want to ask you this question. And I've been asking them this question a bunch to wrestle with. And it's like a two-part question. I haven't got to the second part yet.

So the first part is it's at the end of the day. So one of my guiding philosophies is that every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece. So there's some esoteric nature in there. But so I start with them just asking them, was today successful for you? And it's a group. It's a text chain amongst the three of us. It's a two-person team.

And at first it was like haphazard, kind of like, yeah, you know, I think it was pretty good. I tried hard. It was like loose. And then as I kept asking the question, it begs the question like, well, what is a successful day? Like, how do I know? And so when you think about a successful day, that's part A. And part B is what makes today a living masterpiece. But let's just do part A. When you get to a successful day, that's part A. And part B is like what makes today a living masterpiece. But let's just do part A. When you get to the end of your day, how would you describe a successful day? That's such a good question.

I think I still like to push my body. So I had an opportunity to push my body in a way that felt good. I think I was able to do something in my work life that is fulfilling to me. Like right now I do commentating for races. I really enjoy that. It makes me feel like I have a place in the sport and I was able to connect with the people I love, even if it's just a quick text, definitely with my husband and son, I actually was able to sit and have dinner with them and have a conversation. I mean, that's, that that's not even a successful day. That's just like the best day. That's the best thing. And then underneath each one of those, you could list two, three, seven,

whatever the number is of set of things that lead into that, like pushing my body. Did I push my body in a healthy way? I think you said, or in a good way. And then underneath it could be a handful of things like, did I have my nutrition dialed in? Did I do my prehab, my rehab that, you know, did I put mile miles down or miles on the track or on the treadmill, I guess. And then, so you could have underneath those three categories, just a handful of things. And like, would you check, would you be a box checker or would you do a score one to five or one to 10, one to seven? How would you, how would you do the rating? Um, I think I would just like to highlight the things I did best. Right. So if my nutrition was only okay, maybe I'm not going to highlight that, but maybe if my rest was, I'm going to highlight that instead of looking for where I wasn't good. I want to

look for where I was. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So that gives an overall buoyancy to, to, to life. Yeah. There you go. When you're, when you're in the heavy thick of racing, would you pick the eyes out of, pick the eyes out? That's a terrible metaphor. Where you're in the heavy thick of racing, would you pick the eyes out of, pick the eyes out. That's a terrible metaphor. Where you're in the heavy part of racing, would you, would you shine the light on the three out of tens and the fours out of tens, or would you shine the light on the eights out of tens, which is what you just suggested that you do? I mean, back then I was really focusing on where there, like I said earlier, where there was still time on the table. So I would be focusing on the negative, not the negative, but the things I didn't do as well. How can I get those better? But in my confidence journal, which I wish I had done my entire career,

but I didn't, I would only focus on the positive because that's the whole point. I'm just reminding myself of what I have done right so that I know when it comes to that big moment that I deserve to be here and I've done everything I can do to be ready to be here. In my book, you've earned the full right to be here in this present moment, wherever your feet are. And so, Kara, I just, again, I've said it five times, like, thank you. And maybe we can just kind of round this conversation out by two parts and saying, I hope that we get to cross paths again. And if you could give one parting practice and one parting message to the listener, could you maybe answer both of those? Okay. Practice as something they should do? Is that what you're asking me?

Yes. Okay. I am big on this confidence journal. I know I've been harping at this whole conversation, but I think it works for everything in life. We all have doubts, whether it's for a job we're working for or a relationship we're in. I just think ending the day with like a positive thing about yourself, even on the worst of days, is so important. It's so important. It's so important that it's coming from you and not someone else who, you know,

loves you and is going to always say something nice to you. And then I guess my message would just be that we already hit on this a little bit, but you are stronger than you think. I, my family laughs that I became an Olympian just so they would realize I was there because it was just quiet little mouse, did my homework right, everything good, this and that. And I can't believe the things that I have done and continue to do, I guess. And you are stronger than you think. You can withstand more than you think. You can bear more than you think. And don't let fear hold you back from being the most true self that you can be.

That just might be the opening line. All right. Is there anything like, I just wanted to make sure that I was doing my best job to bring your genius forward. And is there anything that I misspoke about or stumbled on or missed in our conversation? No, I don't think so. Cara, again, thank you so much. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I'm in awe of how you've put together your insights and the courage you have to share them. And so you create space for all of us

to be just a bit better. And I want to say, thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciated this conversation. Thanks for having me. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button

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