Fine Dining - Katz's Delicatessen (Part One: Eat Deets) feat. Joyce

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Katz's restaurant experience drops next Wednesday! Michael's girlfriend Joyce joins Michael in New York City, and they dive deep into the history of the world-famous deli that's over 100 years old in this episode of Eat Deets Katz's Delicatessen has been a staple of New York culture, amplified by its appearance in several movies and TV shows, most notably When Harry Met Sally Current owner Jake Dell has rules for how to conduct oneself at Katz's to avoid being thrown out Michael & Joyce address their anxiety over the intimidatingly complicated ordering process A truly hot take in Yelp from Strangers as someone knocks Katz's for being too far away from where they were coming from... More to come next week!   Music by: James McEnelly (@Ramshackle_Music) Theme Song by: Kyle Schieffer (@JazzyJellyfish) Segment Transitions Voiced by: Sandy Rose "Fine" Dining is on Patreon! Get an extra episode every month (Look out tomorrow for another New York-themed episode as we pit Joe's Pizza vs. Famous Original Ray's), extended Yelp from Strangers segments every other week, merch discounts, download access to our music including the 7 singles from our Olive Garden musical, and more! Patreon Producers: Sean Spademan, Joyce Van, & Sue Ornelas   Get the 5 Survival Tips for Casual Dining at www.finediningpodcast.com!   Send in your Gordon Biersch stories at [e-mail].   Follow the show on TikTok and Instagram @finediningpodcast   Let me know where I should go next by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, PodcastAddict, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I read every one!   Next week on "Fine" Dining: Katz's Delicatessen (Review)! I'm joined once again by my girlfriend Joyce, and for the second part of the episode, we'll give our thoughts on some world-famous pastrami, hot dogs, matzoh ball soup, and more! Ever work at Katz's? Send your stories to [e-mail].   If you're a fan of "Fine" Dining: The Search for the Most Mediocre Restaurant in America, you'll love Banned Camp - a comedy podcast about why books are banned. Be sure to check it out and give them a listen.  Search for them wherever you listen to podcasts - that's Banned with two Ns.

From this point forward, the word cheese will be bleeped because Michael finds it offensive. Hello and welcome to the fine dining podcast, the search for the most mediocre restaurant in America. I'm your host, Michael Ornellis. And in this show, I'm looking for the most mediocre restaurant, the perfect 5.0000 experience out of 10 because I'm just a mediocre dude looking for some mediocre food. How'd that sound? Sounds great. Great. with me this week.

My girlfriend came to New York with me and we're doing some New York-based episodes. Hello, my girlfriend. That's going to be your name for the episode. Hello, everybody. This is Joyce. You may have heard me talk about her on past episodes.

You've come with us, I don't know, how many places? Quite a few. Benihana. Deniz. Can't remember all of them, though. Gukaku. Yeah, you've been to a bunch. Medieval Times,

Rainforest Cafe. Oh, yes. That is a lot. I knew I said quite a few. So, yeah, we went to New York City. I wanted to do a couple episodes while I was there. And we got the opportunity to go to Katz's Delicatesin, very historic spot, very crowded spot. But in general, does it fit the criteria of this show? Walking into it, no, you wouldn't think so. Like, I've seen this place on television and all these different magazines. that I've always wanted to go, so I don't even consider it mediocre whatsoever because it's such a

specialty spot. But that's what I thought. But then you look at the reviews and kind of the way people talk about it on like Reddit and Yelp and stuff like that. And there's a lot of haters. There's a lot of people out there calling it overrated. There's a lot of people out there who are just, anytime something gets too big, it's going to develop people who don't like it simply because it's that big and they don't know if it's so amazing that it justifies being that big. So that's why we're here for the podcast. I want to like get my take. Is Katz as mediocre like some people seem to think? Is it worthy of being this big famous New York institution? We're going to find out and we're going to evaluate this place based on three criteria. We're going to do it based on its atmosphere. Based on its service. And based on the

food. Yeah. Fine dining party of two. Sit down, get in line, grab a ticket. Our table is ready. We'll be right back. Your table is ready. Follow me. Have you tried our chicken breast? Serving pancakes and ribs, I recommend the spaghetti. We're here to satisfy not to impress. Your table is ready. Complementary butter and bread. These walls have growth signs. Knit-knack, cowboy hat, good luck cat. Altigraph guitar. Some grab from your city. Behold the Chotchkey of mediocrity. Fine dining. Just fine dining. Fine dining. Fine dining.

Two letters on the sign aren't shining. Neal flickering irregular timing. Identify the perfect fight. Palatine. Fine dining. Hey there. It's Jennifer and Dan from Band Camp, your go-to comedy band book podcast.

This season, we're headed down the Mississippi River with the adventures of Huckleberry Finn. We'll read it out loud one chapter at a time, trying to figure out why it was banned in the first place. But we're probably not. going to be able to find a reason because book banning is stupid. Join us every Tuesday and Thursday for new episodes.

Find us wherever you listen to podcasts. That's Band Camp with two ends. Join us. First Impressions. I had a couple of friends, a friend I went to college with and her husband and they're now one-year-old. Super cute. Who joined us. And they were coming in from New Jersey.

Their bus didn't show up. So they were running a little behind. So we actually waited all the way through the line. And then I was like, well, they're not here yet. Let's go to the back of the line again. Yeah, there was no rush. Yeah. So we did the line twice just to go in and eat once.

There's like a bouncer that lets you in and they let you in in batches. So, you know, this place is always packed. But it's interesting because you go inside, it's also packed. But yet they can let full waves of people in. So I think as they kind of filter out, they wait until there's enough space to let a batch in instead of kind of doing it one. They have a strategy. It felt like you're graduating class. Like when a group leaves, you're like, ah, there goes class of 07.

Now, come on in, class of 08. And then we get inside. There is a bouncer, basically, like a security guy at the door. And there's salami hanging from the windows, like cured salami all over the, like, like, curtain. They have actual beef curtains. Which I don't say proud. but they literally do. It's just a bunch of hanging salami against the window.

I don't remember seeing that. I must have missed it. You showing me a picture? Yeah. Oh, I must have missed it because I was anxious. But the main thing that you notice when you come in, I mean, one, they give everyone a ticket. That's kind of unavoidable.

That's one of the things where if you go on Yelp or look it up online, it's a very divisive system. Because you walk in and you don't really have a clear idea of what's going on. You see a bunch of meat counters. You see a bunch of lines. You see other lines that aren't for meat cutters. And you're just kind of left to fend for yourself. And I hate that feeling because I never want to be that person that holds up a line.

I mean, and New York is very intimidating. They kind of expect you to come in and know what you're doing. Yeah, but then they were helpful though. When you ask the question, they were not meeting. The employees or the customers? The employee when you first walked in with a ticket. Yeah. So I didn't feel like they were like.

being mean to me or anything ever. Because there's some place where you go, like, they kind of look at you like, why don't you know these things? But I didn't feel that there. But I was always worried that they would look at me that way. So there was this irrepressible anxiety that I had the entire time. Yes. And even though like, and I'll get into it more in service, but our meat cutter was very nice,

but he had that, he just had a New York face. He had a New York face about him. And you know exactly what I. mean by that where it's just like, I don't know if I have the patience for you, but it's just his expression. He was very kind. He looked intimidating, but he was very nice. Yeah.

And plus, I feel like because they didn't tell us what to do, because there's so many signs everywhere. Like, you're a sandwich here. There's a section. Order your Frankfurter here. Order your sandwiches here. You just got to read. Sides are at the end.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, that is, it's amazing how well you can get by in the world if you just take a second to read the signage. Mm-hmm. But it is also packed. It is wall to wall. Again, eight meat cutters and lines for each of them. And they're not short lines.

And they bleed out into the tables. Into the tables. So, you know, my friend who joined us, her husband went, squatted down on a table. Which is okay. I don't want you to think that we're not allowed to do that. We're allowed to do that. No, it was like, yeah, it was like teamwork. It was basically like, all right, you secure the table.

You know, we'll get entrees. You get sides, right? So we kind of split the, split the floor almost. It worked out. It was a lot. But, you know, people are here for the history and for this experience. So it's kind of part of it. It's a busy place.

Okay, we've told you our first impressions of the place. Now we're going to go into the history. In this week's Eat Dietz. Now, as loyal listeners know, my mom listens to every single episode of the podcast. and she doesn't love the recurring noise for eat-deets. And you know what? Not everyone likes chewing sounds, so I'm actually going to make, from here on out,

the Eat-Dete sound effect, easy listening edition. D. Eatery details. All right, let's jump in. Eat Deets. According to the story on the official Katz's Deli website, the Delicessen was founded in 1888 by Morris and High Hyman, Iceland with the name Iceland brothers.

Wow, that's a long time ago. Yeah, 1305 years ago. Hard to imagine. 100 years before we were born, it was founded. And then it's Morris and Hyman, Iceland like the country, but their actual name is Iceland. But they changed it when they arrived in Ellis Island for an Americanization. But how did they get to cats? In 1903, Willie Katz joined the operation and the restaurant's name changed

with it to Iceland and cats. Who is this guy? Is he family? Is an investor? He's a friend of theirs. Yeah. Are you trying to suss out anyone? Like, you're really protective of the Iceland brothers. You're like, I don't like these people who are getting near. Who's jumping in? Family first. No, actually, I shouldn't say that. I'm not. I'm going to leave that in so your family can hear that. Family first and then you take it back. No, I do not. As a therapist, I was like, it's not always found me first.

Oh, that's right. Joyce is a therapist. Now y'all know. Willie's cousin Benny came in in 1910 and bought out the Iceland brothers, officially changing the name to what it is today. Harry Tarovsky, a landsman of the cats'es, which some places online say landlord of the cats'es, a landsman is something different. A landsman is a fellow Jew from the same region or town in the old.

country. He bought into the partnership in 1917. So now it's Willie Katz, Benny Katz, and Harry Tarowski. But no more Island. They went into, or at least Hyman, Iceland went into real estate. I don't know what the other one did. How much should they buy it for? Knowing how the value of the dollar has plummeted throughout the years, it was probably something like, I'll give you $300. Yeah. So while this sequence of events and ownership is believed to be accurate, a little digging from food writer Robert F. Moss found the stated timeline to be off. Ellis Island immigration records have the Island brothers not arriving in New York until 1902, 14 years after the stated 1888 founding of the original deli, and found Morrison Hyman to be

around the ages of 11 and 6 years old, respectively, in the year the deli was claimed to be founded. Which I guess in the late 1800s, child labor was so rampant that the idea of of a six and 11 year old entrepreneur isn't crazy. Eat dates. With this new information, the only thing that really changes for Katz's is its role in the popularization of Pastrami, which was already being eaten and sold all over America at the time of the actual founding in the early 1900s, as opposed to contributing to the rise of pastrami.

And the fact that delis were already flourishing in New York City by the time Katz came on the scene. So they weren't really an innovator in being a day. deli or in pastrami, but they were renowned for it. Yeah, now I'm curious how they got so popular compared to other places if it's already a well-known thing. Well, so one of the things that has contributed to their lasting popularity is that they're not actually a strict kosher deli. They are a kosher style deli, is the term that they used, which means that they're not

closed on the Sabbath. So they're open on Saturdays. And what's actually interesting about that is not only are they open on Saturdays. They're open 24 hours on Saturdays. Oh, wow. So their hours are typically 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. on weekdays, Monday through Thursday. And then Friday, they open at 8 a.m. like all the other days, they stay open to midnight and then Saturday all day and then Sunday all day until the following 11 p.m. It's just one very, very long shift. Well, not a shift. I hope no one has to work that all on their own. That would suck.

The deli was originally across the street from its current location, but moved due to the building of the New York subway system. The vacant lot was home to barrels of meat and pickles until the facade was added to the storefront in the late 1940s. So the subway system started to be built, and it forced cats as all the way to cross the street. I didn't even remember seeing the subway across the street from any corner from cats, did you? Well, we also took an Uber. But I have eyes. And I remember being very observant. You didn't even see the salami in the window.

You're right. You're right. Yeah. So Katz's moves tons of meat, literally. Katz's website says they serve roughly 15,000 pounds of pastrami, 8,000 pounds of corned beef, 2,000 pounds of salami, and 4,000 pounds of salami, and 4,000,000. hot dogs every single week. Is that like one semi-chalk? I don't know.

Pounds and tons. I don't know. I didn't prepare a diagram of what like a baseball arena full of pastrami looks like for you. The only thing I was able to imagine was the hot dog because you said a numeral amount of 4,000. Instead of the weight. Typically when you order brisket, they do it. You do it by the weight. True.

So my nephew was like 50 pounds. So times like by a lot of him. Yeah. Gotcha. They sell 300 Wallace's worth of pastrami every week. That's a lot. But not as much as I thought so. 300 a week.

What? I expect you to say a day. This is just one dish on the menu. They're not only a pastrami place. Oh yeah. You're right. You're right. You're right.

There's corn beef. There's turkey. Yeah. And which is an additional, you know, a bunch of different weights. 8,000 pounds of corn beef. That's an additional. additional like 160 Wallace's there. Did I put it in terms that you can relate to?

No, I can actually visualize, wow, that's a lot of meat. Eat Deets. During the Second World War, the sons of all three owners were serving in the armed forces and the family tradition of sending food to their sons became the company's slogan. Send a salami to your boy in the army, which is supposed to be read with a New York accent to make the rhyme work. I was going to say, why did you choose that accent? Because it doesn't rhyme unless you say it with that New York, New England style accent.

Gotcha. Send a salami to your boy in the army. Like, it's not a perfect rhyme. The next regime change came all the way in the 1970s when Lenny Katz, son of Willie Katz, took over the business after his father's passing. In 1980, both Benny Katz and Harry Tarovsky passed, leaving their shares of the store to Benny's son-in-law, Arty Moxie. and Harry's son, Izzy. So a family business. I wonder if they wanted to take over.

Oh, interesting. Like, yeah, like, were they pressured into it? Yeah, I don't know. I have no information on that. But I'll actually get into it when I go into the next steps of ownership. There's new ownership? In 1988 on the 100th anniversary

of the claimed founding date of the deli, with no offspring of their own to carry on the business, Lenny, Artie, and Izzy sold the business to longtime restaurant mentor Martin Dell, his son Alan, who worked as a chef and manager at a neighboring deli, and Martin's son-in-law, Fred Austin. Alan's son Jake joined in late 2009 and as of 2020 is in charge of major operations. Wow, they just keep selling this place.

I do find it interesting that Katz's deli has been owned by people with the last name Katz and Dell. And Jake is still the current, I mean, owner and operator. Yeah. It deeds. Speaking of Jake Dell, the man's got opinions on how to conduct oneself at Katz's. In a 2016 interview with the Star Tribune,

he laid out the following rules to quote unquote, not get in trouble at the deli because he can and will kick you out, although several of these are just strong suggestions. What would you get kicked out for? That just increases my anxiety. I mean, yeah,

it is a place with a lot of tension built into how people view it. Because he literally says that his grandfather would have kicked people out for specific things. It sounds like he's more tongue-in-cheek about it. This one isn't one you're going to get kicked out for, but order a hot dog as an appetizer. He says New Yorkers know they have the best hot dogs in town with a crisp casing and a juicy inside. He's adamant that hot dogs are to be served with mustard and sauerkraut, not pickles, not relish, not salad garnish, not ketchup. He then says ketchup is okay

if you're under six years old and tell Chicago natives that they don't know how to eat a goddamn hot dog. How do you feel about that? Honestly. Oh yeah, you don't have been like Chicago hot dogs. I don't love Chicago. You're fine. I mean, I prefer it with ketchup. But I actually really did like their mustard and sauerkraut, which surprised me.

I'm glad to hear that you're starting to like pickled items. Those are my favorite. Pickled items, not foods. Like, oh, here's a pickled wallet. Yes, sounds delicious. It's been in a jar for the last two weeks. That was yummy. Rule number two, pastrami has rules.

If you ask for it on white bread or with mayo, there's a chance he'll throw you out. Mustard on rye, that's the way. And that's what we got. Mm-hmm. Rule number three, mustard is the most important condiment. Not yellow mustard either. Real mustard is brownish-yellow, and they make their own spicy deli mustard to go along with the sandwiches. All I could think of is my sister, because she can't have mustard.

Like an allergy thing or like she won't tolerate it. She gets heartburned so like she's not going to fit in. I'm sure you could get it without mustard, but if you're putting a... But you'll be judged. What are you going to put ketchup on a pastrami? Nothing. Put nothing is fine. It is juicy on its own.

Eat dates. Rule four, interact with your pastrami cutter. They intentionally put you face to face with the meat cutter so that you can customize to your liking. You can get samples. You can specify if you want lean. or fatty meat, but it's a strong opinion that juicier is better. And juicier is like their code word for fatty. He basically was like, we understand that people feel a certain way about ordering something

and being like, make it fatty. So juicy has kind of become their code word. That's a good code word. Yeah. It's also the name of my son. According to Jake Dell, the ideal meal is matzabal soup, a hot dog, half a pastrami, and lot keys. Sound familiar?

That sounds like our meal. That's literally our meal. A bobka, though. We added a bobka. We did add a bobka. And he said if he has room for dessert, he goes for the cheese cake. So we differ a little bit there. They've got like a New York style cheesecake.

Do you think I'd remember seeing it? Yeah. Other rules include trying the lot keys, being aggressive with your pursuit of which lines you need to stand in, and to not lose your ticket. So that's a big deal. I really don't understand the ticket system. I don't know why we have to return the ticket.

So speaking of the ticket, that's a staple of cats's. When you walk in the door, every individual is given a ticket. The ticket has a bunch of numbers on the front of it, which used to stand for how many pennies you owed for your order. The numbers would get punched as you moved from station to station, and at the end, they'd total it all up,

and that's what you'd pay on your way out. With the fact that the prices aren't nearly the same as they were over a hundred years ago, nowadays they just write your total on the back. This is done to avoid paying at each station, allowing you to get your food back to your table while it's still hot. So it's saving you the transaction times at each of the stations that you go to. I don't think it helped my food stay hot. Well, it also didn't help that.

Everything about different stations. Well, that you went to get the sides after we had both gone to get the sandwich. So the sandwich had time to sit. The Motsabal soup had time to sit. And then it wasn't until you got back with the sides. Yeah, but what did I went by myself? No one can go at the same time as me. Yeah, I guess that's true.

Eat Deeds. A lost ticket costs $50, and each adult who enters is given one. Even unused ones must be returned at the end of the meal or they'll have to pay a fee. You know, when I was actually looking through Yelp, I saw a person who's trying to sue Katz's for false imprisonment for not letting them leave because they lost their ticket and were refusing to pay it. It seemed like that one was from a while ago, so I don't know how it resolved because it was just based on a Yelp review,

but didn't sound nice. I don't think you know how hard I was holding onto that darn ticket. You're just like white knuckling it the entire time. And I was like, I can't drop this. My life is on the line. Like double checking, quadruple checking every few minutes to make sure I still had it. So these lost ticket fees are definitely helpful to the deli's economics. As pastrami and brisket once considered trash cuts of meat have seen their prices bloat with the increased popularity of Texas-style barbecue.

putting delicatessens in deep economic waters as the wholesale cost of brisket has tripled since 1988. Dell revealed that Katz's maintains its status as a healthy, profitable business because of its sides. Gotcha. I don't know much about meat, but pastrami is brisket? Yes. Oh, okay. In 1989, the Billy Crystal Meg Ryan comedy when Harry met Sally filmed one of cinema's most iconic scenes in Katz's deli. The scene about how commonly women fake orgasms led to,

Meg Ryan's character moaning and screaming with pretend pleasure to prove a point, grabbing the attention of the entire patronage of the restaurant, and leading to the famous line, I'll have what she's having, said by another patron and onlooker played by director Rob Reiner's mother, Estelle. The restaurant has a sign hanging from the ceiling above where Meg Ryan sat to commemorate the scene. So we were on a movie set? I mean, we were at a place that has been used in multiple series.

They own the night, impractical joker, a couple of episodes of Law and Order. When I looked online, there was like a list of maybe 10 or 12 things that had filmed at Katz's. I wonder they have to ask the restaurant to like, not permission? Yeah.

Not permission, but like no customers can go that day or do they just use their own extras? Yeah, you're probably shutting down for a day, paying a fee, and then providing your own extras and people and stuff like that. Typically, that's how it would work. Eat Deats. Whether 135 or just 100,

12 years old, Katz's Delicateson remains a New York staple and one of the most popular delisies in the world. And that'll do it for this week's edition of Eat Deeks. Eatery Details. All right, we've gone through the history of Katz's Delacetessen. We've got a full review of the place next week. But before we go to that, why don't we turn to Yelp and see what other people are saying about Katz's Delacetessen in this week's Yelp from strangers? We need a little yelp, a little yelp from strangers.

A one star, two star, three star, four, or five, y'i. So get a little yelp, a little yelp, a little yelp from strangers. A little yelp, a little yelp. Give us those complaints while you literally why. All right, this is Yelp from Strangers, our segment where we go to Yelp and read out our favorite at one, two, three, four, and five-star Yelp reviews about the very restaurant that we dined at. Katz's Delicatessen. Four-star review.

I'm going to start us off with a four-star Yelp review. This is from Alfred B. one month ago. And I want to state, this is the only Yelp review he has ever written. It's a good idea, but it's not nearby. East New York is a long walk from central Brooklyn. I do love the hot dogs and canish. The grilled Rubens are even better. I'm sorry, but I'm out of breath and I'm out of town and of luck.

Carnegie Deli hot dogs, hot pastrami on rye, York City, classic fat matzabal soup. I have no idea what that sentence meant. But as I said, it's a long, long walk from Prospect Park to the lower east side of New York. What do you talk at? Like, Yelp is not meant to factor in where you're coming from. And who told you to walk? You live in a city with some of the most accessible public transportation in the world with the subway system. And you're just being like, I like Cats' Deli, but it's really far from where I happened to be.

No, sometimes I get him. This is such a crazy take in a public review. Sometimes I wish I lived closer to certain L.A. restaurants and I get mad. Sure, but is it going to affect your review of the place? Parking, maybe. That's different. That's a different thing. They chose to be a very far location from me. Five-star review.

This is from G. Written over 18 years ago. I want to point out, this says first to review. This is Katz's first Yelp review. But it must be fake. It must be a family member. This is the very first five-star review I think I've ever seen in my life. That's why I fought Michael to be the one to read this review.

All right. Okay. So a Lower East Side institution since 1888 to look at the framed photographs of politicians, foreign dignitaries, athletes, and entertainers lining the wall. One would guess that everyone whose anyone has passed through their doors for a tower of pastrami with mustard on rye. A juicy dill pickle on the side. It was here that Sally faked an orgasm for Harry, but I suspect it was the corned beef that really brought on her waves of ecstasy. Does Gourmet think that good food makes women climax? Yeah.

I'll have what she's having and an order to go as well. I love that his name is Gourmet. I kind of don't believe that his name is Gourmet, but for the sake of a five-star Yelp review, I'm here for it. And plus, he seems like a very active reviewer. Yeah, I mean, he's got 2,097 Yelp reviews and 2,097 photos uploaded. Mm-hmm. So I think I trust him. You can go download our full Yelp from Strangers segment at our Patreon.

The link for that is in the description of this episode, or you can go to patreon.com slash fine dining podcast. And we're now offering a one-week free trial. So what do you have to lose? Go check it out. People have wild opinions, and we get to read, oh, so many of them. Thanks. Okay, so that does it for our first impressions and the eat deeds, the background on cats's delicatessen. now we are ready next week to go into our review. You liked Katz's, right? I did.

Yeah. I thought I would like it way more. Way? Well, there's so much hype to it. I guess. And maybe again, we talked about on the podcast where like maybe because I had to wait in line for something else and I could need it. It was very stressful. So we will get into that next week.

We'll talk about what it was like to do the line, what all the food was like, what the atmosphere is like. But in the meantime, follow me on. social media at Fine Dining Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. Send me an email, Fine Dining Podcast at gmail.com. Joyce, do you want people to follow you on any social media or you just want to stay anonymous? Stay anonymous. Okay, great. All right, we'll see you next week. Have a fine day.