First Things First - LeBron’s G.O.A.T. legacy, Ravens Super Bowl window, Training Camp begins, Shedeur starting Week 1?

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

(0:00) Baker Mayfield doesn’t sign, Ravens Super Bowl window open or closed? (24:04) LeBron’s G.O.A.T legacy on the line, Will Stephen Curry retire with the Warriors? (39:15) Expect a career year for A.J. Brown with the Patriots? (45:15) NFL Training Camp begins (01:02:59) Can Caleb Williams build on his success?  (01:16:14) Who will start Week 1 for the Browns at QB?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Always earn high regular interest rates that grow the more you save and invest. Conditions apply. Visit scotiabank.com slash h-I-SA to learn more. Scotia Bank. You're richer than you think. Live from New York. It's the show that's going camping. It's first things first.

I'm Danny Parkins alongside Coach Manjini and Willie Cologne. guys training camps are underway. I know I'm supposed to talk to you about training camp but are any of you guys actual campers? Like outdoors, pitch of a tent. Never been camping. Never been camping. Yeah, you seem like an indoor plumbing kind of guy? I like, oh my glamping, I would go glamping. That's the thing.

Glamping, yeah. We camped outside one time with the boys and the irrigation system came on. So that was, uh... You camped where there was an irrigation system? Yeah, I didn't realize that was happening. That's not camping. It gives you an idea of where I'm at. Sounds like a nap.

in the back yard. We're all the same then in that way. Believe it or not, I like my air conditioning. Oh, yeah, not much for camps. But we'll talk training camp. And on today's show, believe it or not, LeBron James is officially a sixer, but does he have to win a championship to become the goat?

Yes, we're still doing that. Also, Captain Clutch, don't we know he's the ice man? Caleb Williams is ready to win in the first three quarters. I'm going to convince the guys why he will take another step forward this season. And finally, Miles Garrett. He's calling out the defending champs. Ooh, I like it. Coach, it's only training camp,

so I know you love Miles Garrett, already talking about the Super Bowl, right? Yeah, that's perfect. That's exactly what you're supposed to fast forward. Start talking about it right away. Well, he's got a lot of experience with the Super Bowl in Cleveland. Yeah, he does. He does. A lot of background, but he does put him closer to the Super Bowl.

That's true. He does, yeah. He's a pretty good play. Let's start in Baltimore, where the good news is Lamar Jackson has a couple of MVP. And the bad news is Lamar Jackson has three career playoff wins. That did not stop the all-pro quarterback, though. Everyone's talking Super Bowl on day one from envisioning what hoisting the Lombardi trophy would look like. Take a listen.

I always wanted to get it done now. You know, it's from day one. From when I got drafted, man, I wanted to get it done then. I look at all the crates, the guys before me, you know, who won it. And it's like, I always wanted to be in that confetti. I always say that. I want to feel that confetti falling down. Like, you just won the Super Bowl.

I want to feel that atmosphere. I want to be that. I want to be one of those guys to leave that behind for them. You know, when I'm done playing football. All right. Well, so that is more Super Bowl talk in July. As Coach Mangini's chair collapsed, making him the shortest person on set. It was truly an incredible off-camera moment.

That camping story. Yeah, camping story. It had you collapse and coach. Well, we'll get to coach in a second if you hear some instructions. in the background. So, Willie, I'll just start with you. Yes, sir. Do you consider Lamar Jackson's Super Bowl window?

Wide open, cracked open? What are we looking at here? Well, I think it's interesting. Anytime you get a new head coach and a new office coordinator, I think that extends the window. The issue right now with the Baltimore Ravens is that the core of this team is built around older guys, right? You talk about Mark Andrews and Derek Henry, and now you have Henderson and now you got

Clayus Campbell. These are old dogs who can still fight. So it's a window that's kind of like you see it closing, but it's still open because you do have Lamar Jackson. And on top of that, you know, you got credit Eric DeCosta, man, it's been a quiet offseason, but it's been a busy one for him because he realized

with everything that was deficient with his team last year, he went to free agency and he started filling some potholes by adding more depth in the office line, adding some pieces on receiving court, which allows A. Flores to go on the slot. Defensively, hopefully Matt Beakway's back. I mean, he's supposed cleared and hopefully that he can move forward.

But nevertheless, man, the window isn't wide open, but it's open. Yeah, I agree with you in the sets. You've got the two-time MVP. He really could have been a three-time MVP. Easily. So that makes the window always open as long as he can play to that level. But I don't know how the new head coach is going to work. I don't know how the new offensive coordinator is going to work and whether or not

that's going to actually extend his window or shorten his window. And when you hear the offense coordinator talk about, and the players talk about the new system that's going in. Yeah, it's great to have new ideas, but when you've got a guy who was potentially a three-time MVP doing things really well at a high level, how much of that stuff do you want to change? If anything, you want to lean into what he does really well.

What concerns me about Lamar is last year he was sacked at the highest rate he's been sacked his whole career. And then his yards per carry. He himself was the second lowest, his yards per game, rushing, rushing was the lowest of his career. Those two things are a concern as well. And the amount of hits that he takes between sacks and carrying the ball, that adds up. So the window for, you know, at what point he's going to fall off the cliff

athletically, he just don't know. So I'm kind of in line with you. It's open. They could win the Super Bowl this year. And it would not shock me. And he still is on the right side of 30 and he's a multiple time MVP. He's one of the most dangerous players in the league. He is excellent.

But I do wonder, and I don't know of a great answer to this. I got a theory, but I don't know of a great answer for it. He's gotten so much better as a passer. Like his second MVP season, he led in passer rating. He led in QBR. He led in yards per attempt. Like a lot of the things that we measure great passers by. But I do wonder how much of his effectiveness as a passer is because, and coach,

you've game planned defensively against great play. is because people are terrified of him running the ball. And that's still the first thing that you need to take away. And so when the threat of him running goes away, does his effectiveness as a passer go with it? Because I had Troy put this together. This is just a visual representation of Lamar's rushing first downs by year. Last year, the fewest of his career by far.

And he still played in 13 games. Now, he was playing through injury, of course. But Lamar, to me, is the greatest running quarterback in the history of the NFL. Maybe Mike Vic was more explosive. Josh Allen has more touchdowns. But Lamar has the most rushing yards of any quarterback ever. He is the most rushing first downs of any quarterback since he's entered the league. But if that trend goes down where he is not moving the ball with his legs, I do wonder if he goes from being an elite top five,

one of the toughest players of the sport to game plan against, to just. just a league average player. And I don't know how much longer that athleticism is going to be there for him running the ball. Yeah, that's absolutely the concern. And when you play a guy like Lamar, any quarterback who's so dynamic running the ball, you've got to play him dramatically differently

than you play guys that are pure pocket passers. You've got to have someone who can spy them. You've got to have you typically got eight guys in the box if you've got to bring someone down to account for him because he's a number that you can't account for. the quarterback as a runner is a number that you typically can't account for with just your normal set of defense players. So when he's just got to, if he gets the point where he just got to stand in the pocket, has he developed enough as a passer to do that on a consistent basis,

I don't think it's where it needs to do. Yeah, I've received that chart differently. I think we just watched, we're watched, rather, the evolution of a guy who was told he couldn't throw the football coming out of college. So I think he honed in on that. I think he, we, I don't think his escape ability, his ability to end up. Improvers ever going to go away. I think that's innately who he is. But I think when you show that chart,

I think it's somebody that the games, one, slowed down for him, to schematically things start to make sense for him. He's matured. And on top of that, I think he's not relying on his legs. On top of that, you talk about him, understand that he's important to this team. He can't be reckless and go out there to take some of the hits say that he has been

taken. So I think it's him slowing himself down and becoming more of a complete quarterback than somebody who's a gadget quarterback or runnerback that could play quarterback. Well, listen, he's clearly not that, but to Coach's point, he got sacked a lot last year. But that was because of the office line was really bad. It wasn't because if his, come on, Coach, you watch that tape. That left golf for Layla, the Giants just picked up was not good for business. That office line as a whole wasn't good for business.

Omar Jackson's played behind some bad offensive lines. Yeah, but not as bad as they were last year. But he's been so dynamic in the past that it didn't matter because he could always find an answer. And when you look at the volume that he's been hit, so he's been sacked 228 times and he's run the ball. 1,081. So that's 1,300 times where he's potentially been hit. Tom Brady over his 23-year career, sacks 693 times, and ran the ball 565. And when I say ran the ball, it's probably a quarterback sneak.

Right, yeah. So that's 1,258. So he's 50 times less than Lamar's has already in an 8-year career, in a 23-year career, and those body blows add up over time, and you become less effective as a runner and scrambler. It just feels to me like if I was going to buy stock in a guy. 30s and I was just comparing him to his peers, I would be more comfortable with, even though Joe Burrow has missed more games. I would bet on Joe Burroughs skill set aging into his 30s, Josh Allen's skill set aging into

his 30s more than I would Lamar Jackson's, which makes me think that the Ravens title window is shorter than those other guys. I don't know. I just feel like we always streak the strike zone for Lamar Jackson. I think he's a damn good quarterback who right now has to show that offense that around him is deficient. The offensive line has to be better. And that's why I credit when you lose Linda Baum, they went out and got three sentences. Hopefully one of them could pop up. You went out and got some more receive help. They did that. Mark Andrews is getting older and has to be better

and more dependable and got to have a situation. So as much as we want to dissect Lamar Jackson, I do think he's on par from where he needs to be. Last year, across the board, his numbers were down compared to other years. But overall, I still consider him an elite quarterback with a Super Bowl window. That's wide open for him attack. If other pieces around him show up, I mean, you got a, you may have a deficient offensive line, but they got him a pretty great running back. They got him a running back the last two seasons who everybody had to account for, again, bringing that eighth man down the box, which should open up things outside. There have been things that they've put in place to try to help him be successful. I remember a few weeks ago, CBS had the quarterback supporting cast.

They looked at play caller, offensive line, running back, and pass catchers. And that was just what they graded. And Lamar's supporting cast around him on offense was like 22nd in the NFL. And I said, that felt about right to me. Like you lose Linderbaum, you lose likely. It's not a great wide receiving court. Derek Henry's 32 years old. They're counting on that first round pick to be an immediate start around the offensive line.

But I thought the thing that would maybe help Lamar the most this year is, I think there's a real path to them being a top five defense. Like Mintor overachieved with the talent that he had with the Chargers. and he's got an excellent talent in Baltimore. Madibouquet's health is a huge piece of it. But if Baltimore had a top five, top seven defense this year, that wouldn't surprise me at all. And then all of a sudden,

Lamar Jackson maybe doesn't need to put up MVP numbers if he's being supported by a great defense. Well, that has to happen for them to have any success. I mean, this is a defense that gave up 23 points last season, right? So I'm looking to going into this season, the key for this defense moving forward is not being able to rush the pasture. They've got to stop the run, right? And it can't be relied on Maddabikwe alone.

Rohan Swim, he didn't hold up last year. So he has to be better. And he's another piece they're leaning on. So I think, yeah, for them, if you give them a top 10 defense, they should be where they need to be, where they want to be rather. But if Lamar's getting sacked 10% of the time and isn't as productive as he's been as a runner,

I think they're going to have problems. All right. Super Bowl talk in July, Will he. I'm feeling it. Let's talk more Super Bowl. The Rams, they're the clear-cut favorites to win. win the franchise's third title this season, but that division is absolutely loaded,

including a team that won the Super Bowl last year in the Seattle Seahawks. Well, the newest Ram Miles Garrett, he's excited for the opportunity, saying, quote, I want the champs, they want it all, and I've got to see what that's about. They feel like they've got the pieces to run it back, and I feel like we've got the pieces to take over.

These games were the best games the NFL last year when the teams met. How close do you consider the gap to be between Seattle and L.A.? I think it's 1A, 1B, honestly. I do look at it from this situation, and I think the obvious concern comes down to the health of Matthew Stafford. And the reason I say that, because they have a situation at the left tackle position with Lorette Jackson. He may be missing some games of some off-season off-the-field issues. So now you're talking about protection. And on top of that, when they ran the ball to the left side between Largess and their left guard, they average 7 yards

of pop on the ground. So you're talking about the offense right now that was averaging 30 points that can go anywhere in America and put up big time numbers. If you don't have your solid left tackling, your run game's not performing at a high level. Now you start trying to figure out where we start making hey. So overall,

the Rams on paper, they're there right now, but you still got to roll the ball out and you still got to play football. And I think the Seahawks through this whole offseason has said nobody's paid a 10 to us. By the way, we want Lombardi last year. So there's a chip on their shoulder. So I think it's close, but we'll see what happens. But I don't think they're far off from, you know, being where the Rams want to be. And the campaign is go win one for Stafford. Yeah, so the combined three games, it was three

point difference in scoring between the two teams and the three games, which is pretty amazing when you think about it. And the Rams, they go and add Miles Garrett so you get the defensive player of the year. That's pretty impressive. But I like the additions of Jalen Watson and Trent McDuffie. So you get two. guys that are not only talented, but you know that they can play in multiple schemes. You know coming out of the Kansas City system that you can do a lot of things with those two guys. So now you've got you've got an elite pass rusher that you can move around. You've got two guys that you're adding the secondary, that you're comfortable knowing that they're going to not only fit into

the defense, but probably improve the defense, not just from a physical standpoint, but also from a scheme perspective in terms of how you can move them around. I say the most shocking thing was the Ty Simpson pick. You know, being this close and having a first round draft pick to where you could have maybe added another piece to, you know, whether you feel like there's a gap or not, but at another piece that's going to play right now, that that was, that's the one that surprised me. So just to visualize what you just said, they played three times last year, the gap was three

points. But even if you go a little deeper than that, within 80 yards of each other. Basically, between all three games decided by four or fewer points, the NFC championship game is a classic. And I am in agreement with the odds makers. The Rams deserve to be the favorites. They played Seattle really close. Seattle's defense shut down everybody last year, except the Rams who were able to score, you know, 28 a game against them. And Seattle loses Kubiak.

They lose Kenneth Walker. They lose Kobe Bryant, the safety. And the Rams, to your point, add a couple of pieces. their secondary and add, oh yeah, by the way, the best defensive player of a generation in Miles Garrett. Like the Rams deserve to be favorites. But that's not a lot for a Super Bowl champ to lose. If you said something, DP, Seattle has proven they can win ugly, grimy, gritty, dirty.

How do we want to do it, that's Seattle defense can hold up. We haven't seen that of this Rams out of that out of this Rams defense. So as Miles Garrett and Trickman Duffin and Jalen Watson and all these key pieces, obviously you have Kobe Turner and Brian Young, yada, yada, yada, yada. They haven't proven yet they can win gritty if the office. isn't producing because we have seen times out of the Seahawks where they're not on at their best and that defense has shoulder to load and get them out of the building. So if you're Miles Gary, you can say what you want. The Rams feel like they're battle tested. They feel like

we can go to, we can have a back alley fight or we can take it in front of Broadway. The Seahawks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can win in any fashion. The Rams haven't proved that yet. So that's what Miles Garrett has a pay attention to too, too. Listen, Stafford has one one. I think these are two great teams. I just, it's interesting to me, I wonder how many people, if anyone, in the national media will pick Seattle to win the Super Bowl. Like, they were not a fluky team. But is that on us, though? Why don't we give it to Sam Darnel?

Like, why we aren't giving Sam Darno in flowers? I think that's fair. It's interesting to me. Like, they won 14 games in the regular season last year. So they were the number one overall seed. They blew out the Niners in the divisional round. They won a classic NFC championship game where Sam Darnold went toe to toe with the MVP of the league through for 346 yards and three touchdowns.

Then they had a blowout win in the Super Bowl. And losing a coordinator, a running back, and a safety is not that significant for a Super Bowl champion. I'm not saying they're not big losses, but like relative to what a lot of Super Bowl champions do lose, that's bringing back a tremendous amount of continuity from a team that was pretty dominant last year. I do think we are collectively overlooking Seattle because of how amazing the Rams offseason is about. I agree. You can say that, but remember, until Kansas City repeated, It had been 20 plus years since anybody had repeated. It's hard to do.

So it's something that's extremely hard to do. They have to do it in a division with two other teams that could potentially vie for that spot. That makes it that much more challenging. And now you've got the whole learning curve of how to deal. You know, we teach how to deal with failure all the time. But you've got to learn how to deal with success too. And maybe they'll handle it really well.

But that's a learning curve as well. Yeah, I think part of it is because we, for some reason, haven't brought into Sam Donald and what he's become. I mean, two back-to-back seasons of playing elite football, and we're still saying, well, you know, that's on us. Well, you can pick Seattle. So you get ready for predictions week. Moving on to Tampa, Baker Mayfield showed up to camp today without a new deal. Reports are that Baker and the Bucks have ended talks on an extension, and Baker will play the final year of his contract before becoming an unrestricted free agent. All right, Coach. He obviously could play on the franchise tag next year, so the Bucks are not in danger of losing Baker Mayfield.

But how big of a deal is this that they were not able to reach an agreement before the season? I don't think it's that bigger a deal. I think it could actually end up being a positive. What have we seen from Baker Mayfield not just throughout his pro career, but throughout his college career? When he's got a chip on his shoulder, when he's a little bit angry about the situation around him, he tends to play really well. And then sort of have a highly motivated guy playing quarterback, that's not a terrible situation. And you can pay as you go here. You play out this year. You can franchise them next year.

The average between the two years will probably be less than whatever you have to pay them, you know, in terms of upfront money. And I think the other concern is as many risks he take that work out well, there's a bunch of risks that don't work out well. And you've got to try to figure out, you know, are you willing to live with that? If we can just pull up his numbers since he's been in Tampa Bay, this is a concern if you're going to invest a ton of money in your quarterback when you've got 45 turnovers and it's the most in the NFL. So there's been a lot of good things that he's done. But this is a concern if you're thinking long-term deals. Yeah, listen, I see it this way. I think the Bucks are somewhat of a fading franchise right now and they're looking at a quarterback who they probably love because he did deal with a lot of injuries last year.

the Bucks did give him opportunity to kind of revamp his career. But on top of that, they were 8-9 last season, and they missed the playoffs when they started off really hot. We were talking about Baker and a whole different conversation last September, and then things kind of faded. If you look at the division, the Panthers are them, right? The Panthers are better. The Saints are better. Every team in that division is better, but not because of what the quarterback is able to do, because as a team, they've gotten better roster-wise. If you look at the Bucks roster right now, they're not good.

They should have a struggling office line. Vita Vail wants out of there. The defense pretty much packed it up towards the back end of that season and said, we're out of here. And so now you see all these barnfires going around the roster. It's not about Baker and giving him his money. The fact right now, from a talent standpoint, the roster standpoint, they can't compete with what they got to go against in their division. So it's a concern. Are you willing to give Baker $55 million when you don't have a D-line and a secondary that can compete in a division that's getting better?

It's an issue. But that is going to happen. That is how this ends. If Jordan Love got it. if Jalen Hertz got it, if Brock Purdy got it, if Trevor Lawrence got it, like Baker Mayfield is well within his right to say, I'm as good as those guys. I have won at that level. I have produced statistically at that level.

I've taken us to the playoffs. I helped the franchise in a post-Tom Brady world. Baker Mayfield, relative to his offensive production over the last three years, is underpaid. Now, no one's passing around the hat for him when he's going to make 33 million bucks this year. And he can make 16. 16th in the league. He can make $50 million next year on the tag. Baker's doing fine.

He makes a ton of off-field endorsements, all of that. But Baker is underpaid. And so he will get paid by Tampa. It's just a matter of time. And normally, we criticize teams for waiting to pay guys if it is inevitable. I don't see Baker-Mayfield leaving. Yeah, but if you got to put on your manager's hat for a second and you look down the road with a draft that's going to be littered with quarterbacks

and you look at a team that has a lot of holes to feel, you want to put all your assets into one guy just because what he's been able to do or you want to say, hey man, I got a chance to go on the draft, get a young guy, and continue to build up this roster because Baker's getting older. And I'm not trying to discredit what he's been able to do. Early 30s, right? I mean,

31. At the same point, this man was banged up for a reason. We're talking about O-line play. That O'Line couldn't protect him. So now you're talking about a quarterback possibly repeating the same thing he did last year, even though you love what he brings to the table. Nobody's questioning his leadership and his production. I'm just talking about for the bucks right now

A division's gotten better, and his team is fading. And who on that list that you said, he got paid, he got paid, where the organization is super happy about doing that deal? I mean, I'm pretty sure that Jacksonville's happy with paying Trevor Lawrence. I'm pretty sure that the Packers are happy with paying Jordan Love. It's a half and a have not league. Like, everybody can't have Josh Allen. Everybody can't have the quarterback that no one has any questions about.

You need a team to win a championship. And when you're paying premium prices, there's premium expectations. So if you're just going to say, okay, we're comfortable being eight, nine, or nine and eight, or if we're comfortable living in that world, then, yeah, you go ahead and pay it. But you're essentially looking to try to take the next step. And it is a have-and-have-and-nav-nout world. And I've been in the have-not world. Yeah, how'd that go for you?

Yeah, it wasn't great. But the flip side of that is, if you're looking at it organizationally, is how can we compete for a championship of every year, you're aspiring to get that guy that can do that. I hear you. I think that that is like logically that makes sense. I just, this is going to end, in my opinion, with Baker getting a deal. And so whether that is next year coming off of a franchise, all that means is he's now negotiating off of making 50 million instead of making 33 million. You know, like, so the longer you wait, if you are inevitably going to pay him, you are just going to end up paying him more money the longer you wait.

That's just how contracts work in the NFL. I would tag him a bag of, move on. Well, I mean, you get to do that too. And keep kicking the can down the road. All right, coming up, Rachel Nichols, Kevin O'Connor, will join us if LeBron's goat status. Yeah, we're still talking goat. It's on the line in Philly.

Coming up, First Things. Back here on First Things First, talking all things, LeBron, who has officially signed a two-year deal to end his career in Philadelphia. And Charles Barkley says these four. final two seasons could be the thing that determines his goat status. Barclay says, quote, you know, if he wins back-to-back championships and walks away from this thing at 44, 45, I'll say something I ain't ever said before. I think I just saw the greatest basketball player ever. I'm joined now by Rachel Nichols and Kevin O'Connor. All right, Rachel, I guess LeBron's

goat candidacy and legacy is still up in the air at age 42. Do you see it that way? Yeah, just he's only got to win two more titles back to back in a league that has had no repeat champions for eight years because of all the rules changes. And he's got to do it at 44 or 45 and then he can be the goat. Seems fair. This coincides with Charles Barkley also revealing recently that he and Michael Jordan have reconciled. I am sure the extra extra extra extra high bar for LeBron has absolutely nothing to do with that. But look, I have said for a long time, I think Kevin has probably said some. something similar that you can't really compare these players between eras.

The rules are so different. The level of athleticism is different. The level of international players in the game and therefore competition is different. It is really about what you value, the era you saw them in, what memories you have. And I think a lot of people are going to have some pretty amazing memories from LeBron James era, no matter where they fit on the scale of whether he's the goatist of goats or maybe only the goaterer of goats. Well, I like that. It's such a sensible way of putting it, Rachel, and your sponsor.

on about it. That's exactly the way I feel. But ultimately, the debate is going to rage on between Jordan stands and LeBron stands. And I think for this sort reminds me, as a Patriots guy myself, growing up a blessed Patriots fan seeing six Super Bowls from Tom Brady, there were still people doubting Brady as the goat before he went to Tampa Bay and got his seventh. And then that seventh made even the people say, oh, it's Montana. Oh, it's Manning. They say, okay, okay, it's Tom Brady. And so I think if LeBron James does become the first player in the history of basketball to win a championship with four franchises, that would be something that does move more people towards LeBron is the goat argument rather than Michael Jordan. But I think, as you said, Rachel, you're right, that it's different errors. It's hard to compare.

But I do think LeBron winning another one is part of the reason why he went to Philadelphia that tried to bolster that argument for himself. Maybe I'm just too cynical. I don't think that anyone changes their mind on anything anymore. So, like, I honestly don't think. I don't believe Charles Barkley. I agree. I don't believe Charles Barkley. Like, I think that LeBron could win two more titles and then he would move the goalposts

again to still say that it was someone from his era that he competed against because that's just the way of the world in which we live in, unfortunately. Like, I am a child of the 90s in Chicago. I have early memories of seeing Michael Jordan. So I'm a Jordan guy. It's kind of a birth. right. But I saw LeBron James play in high school, and he still is unbelievable. So I love and respect watching LeBron James. I am able to keep those two thoughts in my head simultaneously and be a Jordan

guy who is not offended by people who think LeBron is the goat. I know. It's a mind-bending concept here. But I also think, and LeBron even alluded to it in his statement when he announced that he was moving on to Philadelphia, like, really? Like, what else is he possibly playing for? He said it's not even about family. Like, it's not about money. He just loves basketball and is trying to win. He's the all-time leading scorer who has four titles, who's won him with three different teams, and is still a top 20 player in the sport, Rachel, at age 42. Like, the idea that, like, I just need to see one more thing from LeBron, and that would tip the scales. It just seems ridiculous to me. Yeah, and I think when he says he wants to win, I don't think it has to do with him.

wanting to push himself ahead in the goat debate. I think it's because he wants to win and just even have contention to win. I was in the Paris Olympics and after they won that gold medal, it really struck me that LeBron, one of the first things he said, he said, God, it was so great to play for something again. And he said it again, actually, when he returned to Los Angeles just a month or two after that. So it's stuck in my head, he said it twice.

And I think for a guy who has gone to the finals ten times in his 23 career and the first 17 of those years was when he went the 10 times. So really, for more than half of his career, the NBA finals were the LeBron James Invitational. He was always in it or close to in it. And it's been five or six years since he was even sniffing anything of that since the bubble in 2020. So I think the idea of getting to play for something, they might not be the favorite. I think Vegas still has the spurs and then maybe even the Thunder next is the favorites. But the idea that he is in the mix now with this Sixers team, that is something. thing he has been wanting and that hunger and fire was renewed really for the last couple

years since the Olympics. And I think he's getting that now. And I think that is just a big part of this as does he actually win it? Where does it put him in the, you know, all-time rankings, all of that kind of stuff? I do think this is a cherry on the top stage of LeBron's career. But like the fact is that if he does win it and never mind the back-to-back scenario that Charles Barkley is teasing with that high bar, it might not be his intentions to go to Philadelphia, to your point, Rachel, he might just want to compete and be in it and have an opportunity.

But the byproduct of that, if he does win it, is bolstering that argument even further that he is indeed the goat. But ultimately, I think, you know, to your point, Danny earlier, you mentioned like you're a Jordan guy. You grew up in that era. I think Jordan, you know, definitely there's the argument that he had the greatest peak of any career. But career, LeBron has the longevity and he has a great peak as well. So I think for LeBron, if he's able to have these different stages of his career where he won, even early in his career, going to the championship in 07 with the Spurs when they weren't ready, like losing, they get swept. But that cavalier's team stunk and then do it when he's old in his 40s. That argument for greatest career, I think will be undeniable.

I mean, he's got basically every youngest to ever do blank and oldest to ever do blank accolade that you could possibly have at this point. But let's move on to a team that LeBron snubbed. The Warriors are in a fascinating spot. So they miss out on landing LeBron. Reports are now saying that Golden State owner, Joe Lekob, is focused on building a team for the post-Stef era. Now, this comes on the same day that the Warriors agreed to a one-year $27 million deal with Draymond Green, which was actually the same contract that he opted out of in order to give the Warriors some flexibility to try to land LeBron.

Now, Curry has played all 17 of his seasons, obviously, in the B. Bay. He's got four titles. But KOC, if they're planning for a post-Steff world, should Steph try to finish his career outside of Golden State? Look, if they're going to play this middle ground here, like with the two timelines thing, going back five years, even before the 22 title that they were fortunate to get, it's ridiculous. It truly is ridiculous when Stefan Curry is still one of the five to ten best players in basketball. Dremont Green proved last year that when he flips the switch in games against wemby opening night against yokech in the playing against kawai leonard he can still be an all-world defender and the fact that this franchise isn't putting the

right pieces around those guys and hasn't for multiple years in a row now they tried for lowry marketing they were too cheap they made a call about jalen brown they were too cheap they weren't able to go get yonis despite planning him for three for three years what are we waiting for here if you're the warriors clearly just the post step era and so i think for stephen curry unless he just he just just wants to be a lifer, which I would respect, truly. I would respect it. If he wants to be a lifer, cool. But the fact is, if there's any hope of competing for a championship, I think the guys

who built the warriors, guys like Jerry West, Bob Myers, Travis Slank, these phone office executives are gone. And Joe Lakeup took over. This isn't the same warriors. And they have not operated the same way. And very clearly, if you're Stefan Curry, if you have any intentions to want to win another championship, your fifth, I don't know if it can happen in Golden State with all of actions they've taken in recent years.

I just hate hearing this. I hate hearing it from owners. We heard it at the end of LeBron's tenure in Cleveland the second time around. Dale Gilbert wouldn't trade some valuable picks because he said, we don't want to be left high and dry again when LeBron ultimately leaves. And so LeBron is stuck looking

at J.R. Smith like this during his last championship run in Cleveland because he wouldn't get the help that he needed because they were so worried about the post-Lebron era. And then LeBron does leave. And guess what? They still had a huge dip after LeBron left the second time. Staff Curry comes around once in a lifetime. Your franchise gets a guy like this once in a lifetime. You mortgage every piece of future you have

while he is still, as Kevin says, as effective as he is, as Draymond can do what he can still do on important nights. And you go for it because guess what? After Steph is done, you're going to have a dip anyway because Steph Curry is not going to be there. And so I think a fan base, would rather see you go for it with Steph and then if in the next three years the cupboard is bare and you just have a bunch of scrappy young draft picks trying to do the best they can each night, how is that any worse than what you have now where you are watching Steph Curry, one of the greatest of all time, a top 10 player in my opinion, have to suffer through plan after plan and just sort of eking by. I don't think that's good for fans either. I don't think

it's what anybody wants except maybe ownership. And I don't understand. at it when we see it time and time again, owners who get in their feelings about star players, either leaving or just aging and can't say, hey, this is worth it. This is what I need to make it count for. So I agree with both of you completely. You can say they've had some bad luck with the injuries and what it would look like if Jimmy Butler was still at the peak of his powers and all of that. But clearly this is not a team that's ready to win a title. Brian Windhorst said something that at least piqued my interest because he's obviously very plugged in. And I I want to be clear. I do not think that the onus should be on Steph Curry to do this. I have a long track record of takes that are pro player instead of pro management. But LeBron just did something that we had never seen before. A top 20 guy, one of the greatest of all times, he's playing for $2 million. Windhorst floated the idea that instead of Steph Curry signing a two-year $136 million extension that he's eligible for next month, that he just doesn't. And that he plays out this season on his

deal, and then him and Dremond would be up. They'd have over 90 million in cap space, and you go in the next year and you see what you could do, and Steph plays for less. Now, again, that is letting Joe Lacob and everybody in Golden State off the hook for it, but if to your point, KOC, he wants to be a warrior for life, and he still has great basketball left, and these owners are clearly not going into the second apron, I do wonder if what we just saw from LeBron James, you know, last Friday, of playing for the minimum, because these guys have now made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars before they've made a single dollar off the court and Steph is a very shrewd businessman off the court. I do wonder if for

his age 39, 40, 41 season, if he is willing to personally sacrifice basketball earnings KOC in order to try to win one more time in Golden State. If you're the Warriors front office, if you're Joe Lake up ownership and you want Steph and Carr to do that, you better start taking the actions now to day to make him want to do that because everything they've done in recent years has been the opposite of that. It has been reason to give him a wandering eye to look at Charlotte and say, huh, La Mello Ball's gone. Do I want to be the point guard of that team and have Splash Brothers 2.0 with Conniple and be part of that fun team and close on my career at home with my dad announcing games? That's everything they've done in recent years has given him a reason to do just

that and get paid in Charlotte to close out his career. But ultimately, I think, thing for the Warriors, if they have any expectation of that, Danny, that they better start getting to it, start making some moves to get out of the plane, because it's just an absolute embarrassment that they're in this position with Stefan Curry in the plan every single year. They have a residency there. It stinks that Steph is in these games. To be able to take a kind of huge discount, you have to trust what you're taking the discount for. So in LeBron's case, he knows exactly what he was taking the discount for because the roster was already in place. And he said, great.

I'm going to make $4 million in ear for this roster. If you're a guy like Victor Webenyama, you are taking a discount because you trust that you in the front office and the Spurs have this partnership. And by the way, Victor grew up worshipping the Spurs. It's the same exact people in the front office. It's Pop. It's R.C. Beaufort. He has seen a track record of decades knowing that he can trust them to use that money to good term and to be able to use it to help him build the team he needs. If you're Jalen Brunson, you can take a big discount or you can put off money. because the man running the front office held you as a baby is your de facto godfather who

met you before your dad met you. That is how far back those families go and how much Jalen knew. You know what, if I put off some money, if I take now and I put off the $100 million until later, I can trust Leon Rose in the front office not to screw me over and to do the right thing in building this team. Steph Curry has not been shown by the Warriors front office that he can trust them to use that money to build a good team around him, not this version, not the post-Bob Myers version. So I don't know if it's making moves now, like Kevin says, that would be helpful for sure, or whether it is Joe Lakeup replacing this front office that frankly just hasn't gotten it done. And it doesn't mean they're bad people, and it doesn't

mean that they don't know anything about basketball, but it means that they haven't performed. And at some point, you've got to make a change if you are interested in doing things like keeping step for Curry or asking him to sacrifice anything. You're not going to just do it to do it and then let the front office fritter it away on players that haven't been scouted properly or guys who can't perform or getting even a guy like Jimmy Butleran who was a big boon to their team but was older and injury prone by the time that they got him. You are looking for a younger guy to bring to this mix who can help them get back to the level that they should be at if you've got Steph on your team.

And if Steph Curry can't be a lifetime warrior, I'm not sure we'll ever see it again because I don't think there's been any player in the last 25 years who's meant more to one franchise than Steph Curry has meant to the Golden State Warriors. Rachel KOC, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Coming up is a career year incoming for A.J. Brown. He should get more targets in the middle of the field with Drake May than he did with Jalen Hertz.

It's next on First Things First. The first ever all-electric 26 Subaru Trail Seeker is the EV for the Trail Obsessed, with up to 444 kilometers on a full charge. and DC fast charging from 10 to 80% in about 30 minutes in ideal conditions. Plus, ample ground clearance and symmetrical all-wheel drive make the 2026 trail seeker the most capable EV Subaru has ever built. Test drive it at your local Subaru dealer or visit Subaru.ca. So AJ Brown is getting acclimated to his third team in eight years.

He's got a new quarterback, a new offensive coordinator. And here is how AJ Brown is thinking about how he's fitting in with his new offense. Take a listen. I'm still getting comfortable each and every day. I'm grateful. The offense is, I'm pretty in a good spot. I want to say I'm like 90%, you know,

and it's just really just about going to execute and getting on the same page with Drake each and every day. But I'm really comfortable. So the question is, can AJ put up a career year now that he's teamed up with Drake? So I wanted to put together those are his career highs just in various seasons in various categories. Now, if he did all that in one year, absolutely monster year. He is a top 10 receiver in the sport pretty comfortably.

Willie, do you think he can have a career year production-wise with Drake May? Yeah, the goal is to give back to being top five, which he once was. I think what's going to be interesting for Drake May, that is, is he's never had to deal with a receiver that's always going to be double-covered, right? Like he, when you come, when defense to prepare on Sunday, they worry about AJ Brown at the boundary. You know, so it's going to force Drake May to throw into tight windows and see things different from how he saw it last year. And he's going to be playing better teams, right? So I expect AJ Brown to still be explosives and still be tough, a big time possession receiver.

But right now, the on Drake May, how he can get the ball to him and build that chemistry because how the defense is going to dictate where he should throw the ball, which should open up other things for other guys. like a Kishar on booty and et cetera. But it's going to be a tough task for Drake and May because he hasn't dealt with this type of receiver. A lot of those career numbers, too, came in his first year in Philadelphia. And so coming to New England, I don't think he's going to approach those numbers. And the concern I have is with a young quarterback, is he going to try to force it to AJ Brown? And is AJ Brown going to try to make him force it to him? and knowing Josh McDaniels for a long time and Mike Brable,

their philosophy is you're going to throw it to the open guy. Now, AJ Brown is going to say, I'm open. Correct. It's like it works out great, so I'm always open. I'm always open. I'm always open knowing you're coming me. But even looking back at last year, if we can pull up the numbers, Stefan Diggs got 102 targets.

So it's not out of the realm of possibility. Stefan didn't go in with anywhere near the fanfare that AJ is going in there. But those are big target numbers and big receiving. A career high in targets would be 160 for A.J. Brown, right? 60 more than Stefan got last year. Right. So, like, when you say it like that, it's like, well, that's ridiculous. But what if you say it like this?

10 targets a game. Like, 10 targets of games is 170 targets. But it goes back to what coach said. You can't force it because you have A.J. Brown now, right? Like, you have to make it work for the office. Like, you got to understand. Drake May, one thing Drake May has going into this season is continuity with Josh McDames. There's 21 other teams that have new OCs, right?

So you're talking about the chemistry right now that he's building with an office coordinator. He's going to keep that chemistry and listen and continue to grow. He's not going to detour or reroute himself solely because he has A.J. Brown. They went to a Super Bowl last year. Right, but they also gave up a lot to get A.J. Brown, and they gave up a lot to get A.J. Brown when he probably does not. Listen, I know Mike Evans, we're talking about. him getting a thousand yards at 33, so he's more of an outlier. They are looking at this as a couple of years of like the prime of A.J. Brown, where he should

still be able to give them top 10, top five level production. And Jalen Hertz did struggle with throwing to some parts of the field, the middle of the field, intermediate routes where AJ Brown is excellent. And everything about Drake May profiles out to be, he should be excellent at that because of just how smart he is, how quickly he gets through progressions, how strong his arm is thrown to all three levels. I would think that if you are going to go get AJ Brown and bring in whatever distractions or anything like that that comes with it, I would expect that you're going to feature him prominently in this offense.

Yeah, you're definitely going to try to do that. But one of the things that can be so disruptive with the receiver is if you've got a game plan as an offensive coordinator and as an offense to give him the ball early because otherwise he's going to be grumpy, otherwise he's going to pout on the side, you know, any of those things that can create chemistry issues that can create distractions. Hopefully that's that's not the case. And I do still like I've said it many times, Drake May is a young quarterback and AJ Brown wants his touches. And the offense is predicated like every offense should be on. You throw to the guy who's open based off the coverage, not throw to the guy because he expects the ball every play.

I expect him to have a much better year this year than he did last year. Because at a quarterback playing or because he's probably feels like he's in a better situation where he's being appreciated. He's in a better situation because of the quarterback. But remember those numbers that we showed, a lot of those were with the last quarterback he was with. Yeah, I think we

forget, AJ Brown wasn't a pro bowler until he got to Philadelphia. Like he wasn't a pro bowl. Like we kind of scoff at the relationship, him and Jalen Hurts hat. Yeah, AJ Brown was good in Tennessee, but when he got to Philadelphia, he was that dude, because

of Jalen Hertz. So let's breathe a little bit. This is a real chicken of the egg garden. But I'm just, but we kind of like, oh, well, he- A lot of people love Jalen Hertz not too long ago either. Now, now it's like he can't play. But we poop-poo on that, that production between those two. Yeah. We can't do that. They put up big numbers together. You guys ready to go camping? I'll start the fire. You bring the marshmallows. All right. Let's go camp. Let's do it. All right. You're going to clamp. I know you. You're soft, really. Whatever. Live from New York, it's the show that's ready for some training camp fights. It's first things first.

Now, Willie, they wanted me to ask you if you've ever been in a training camp fight, which is laughable. How many training camp fights have you been in? Way too many. Way too many. But I was a team first guy. That's why you fought your teammates? Love hurts sometimes. Lovers.

Yeah, tough love. Was it more of your teammates or when they would have those like intra-squad practices and you get to hit someone else? No, it was more my team. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. You must have loved guys like that, right? I find them.

You find them immediately. Yeah. All right. I'm open for my life in physical conversations. Later on this hour, can Caleb keep winning in the clutch? I don't know why we're answering asking obvious questions. Also is Jordan Love? He's geared up for year six.

Is he a Dark Horse MVP candidate this year? He played like it for multiple stretches throughout his career. But right now, we're going, Kansas. We're going camping. All 32 teams are officially underway at training camp. So we're going to be going city to city to break down the biggest storylines as we gear up for the season. First up, let's go to Buffalo. Look at us setting postcards from the road.

The bill's coming off a 12 and 5 season still reeling after that OT divisional round loss. Who's driving? We look good on a postcard. Who's driving? The RV drives by itself. We're rotating. turns at the wheel. We're going all over the country.

Don't over think the postcard. They gave up 33 points in that game. So here is my biggest storyline for the bills. Are they finally going to give Josh Allen a defense? When we talk about Josh Allen and him falling short in the postseason, I don't find it to be fair compared to other quarterbacks who have fallen short in the postseason. Because Josh Allen, by and large, and I know he had a couple of turnovers in the law, so I'm not saying the last one he was perfect in, though he had plenty of great moments too,

he has largely been an excellent playoff quarterback. If we just look at the games in which he's been eliminated in the postseason, in the Josh Allen era, they have averaged giving up 31.5 points per game and over 400 yards per game in their playoff losses. And the bills scored over 29 points in three of the five games that they've been eliminated from the playoffs. So they bring in Jim Leonard. Everyone talks about him as some sort of defensive mastermind. He had a big influence on a Denver defense. So I'm wondering, Coach, everyone's talking to DJ Moore.

Are they finally going to give Josh Allen a defense? You would have been part of the group that fired the last head coach at Buffalo. You know, 100% would have been. When I saw this question, I thought it was a mistake. I thought you had put the wrong thing in. Let's take a look at the Buffalo Bill's defense, where they ranked over it. Just the last five years. Just the last five years.

So 12th, 11th, fourth, second, first. Oh, wait, in 2020, they're first in both yards and points. I'm sorry, are those playoff rankings? Is that, or is that beating up on the Jets? So those are some terrible defenses. They've been top 10 in almost points and yards in each of these categories for the last five years. It's trending the wrong direction. And there's been, if you drill down further, it's more of the same.

So to say that he hasn't had a defense during this run that he's been there, that's, you must be camping when you get this topic. All right. I mean, realistically, man, the defense has been awesome, to be honest. The problem is they've been hit with the injury bug. The interior of their defense in line was horrible. When on top it out, you lose Milano and a lot of couple other pieces, and they've struggled. Now, I agree with you.

If you're going to have Josh Allen go out there once again, they need a defense that can close games. Have they been a great defense in the playoffs? Have they been a great defense against good teams? I don't think they've been bad. I haven't gone through every single one of their defensive games. But look, at some point, if you're a great quarterback, you're going to have to figure out a way to win some big games. And yeah, we can throw up those numbers.

But to universally say he's never had a good defense when historically he's had a lot of good defenses. He needs a defense that's peeking at the right time and playing better come to playoffs. and able to do it against the actual good teams. Maybe the new head coach will be able to get that done. Jim Leder would be great. He's a spawn of the Rex Ryan of Tree, so he'll be fun. Coach, very salty whenever a defensive head coach gets fired. Let's go to L.A.

They're going to hate this one, too. Justin Herbert, he's getting ready for year seven coming off a season where he threw just 26 touchdowns and 13 picks, but he has a new offensive coordinator this offseason to work with. So my biggest camp storyline is, what is it going to look like with, Justin Herbert and Mike McDaniel. And I will admit that these are just two of my guys.

I've been a big Mike McDaniel fan, obviously love Justin Herbert's talent. But I have kind of marveled at what Mike McDaniel was able to do in Miami, yes, statistically, with, we'll be generous and call it below average quarterback talent. Now, at times he had Tyree Kill and Jalen Waddle and elite playmakers, no doubt. But that is the quarterback ranks over the four years that Mike McDaniel was in Miami. and you see the quarterbacks that he threw a pass form at the bottom. Skyler Thompson, Teddy Bridgewater, Quinn Ewers, Tyler Huntley. That's a list, boy.

And Tua. This is like Mike McDaniel going from the Mazda to the Maserati. And I cannot wait to see what it's going to look like for Justin Herbert. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of quick game motions. You know, the goal for McDaniel with Herbert is, again, to throw with anticipation, not sit in the pocket and they kind of dissect things. They want to speed things up. And they want to access his talent without feeling like, man, you know,

everything has to be a Herculean effort for him to have. success. They want to give them the easy stuff. Right. And so I think that's what we'll see. And also, they're going to have a run game. You know, the officer line is healthy. The defense is all we know what they can do. But I think from an officer standpoint, I think they have enough around them. It's just about making life easier for Justin Herbert. And I think you can deliver that. One of the things that I respect so much about Jim Harbaugh is his openness to doing whatever, whatever someone wants to try that they think can be successful. And, you know, as a former quarterback, as an offensive coach, he was always willing to listen to new ideas.

And I think he's going to give McDaniels a lot of room to implement his system. But he's also going to have a fair amount of input and impact on the offense as well. It's going to be really interesting to see how much of McDaniel's true offense that he brought from Miami that he's had over time is implemented right away, how much of it is sort of the things Jim believes in and the things Mike. believes in and fuse those together. And to your point, he did a great job with Tua, who at the point he came in was lacking confidence and was able to maximize a lot of the things that Tudu does well. And we talk about Justin Herbert as a Maserati all the time, but at some point we've got

to see it running at Maserati level. Otherwise, it's just the same conversation year and year out. And also, Rick and Mattis, like, McDaniel's office, they run the ball now. It's not just, you know, on rhythm throws. They run the ball and they get out into the spaces and they create things on the outside. And so I think with him, it's about if you give him a solid run game, life is going to be a lot better for Herbert.

He just can't be the end all, be off for the charges and expect success all the time. That's kind of what I envision this as being. Like, they signed a fullback. They signed an interior offensive line. Obviously Harbaugh loves to run the ball. I feel like they are going to try to make this easy for Justin Herbert with the run game.

Greg Roman, the one thing, He does really well run the football. So to say that there was an emphasis with the charges. The office line was baneed up. So that kind of. Right. But I'm saying if there's a strength that he had, the running game was a real strength for him.

It's just an interesting offseason for them. They're getting back both of their tackles. They're getting a new offensive coordinator. And your offensive coordinator is even if you say he hasn't played like a Maserati consistently, he has at least a Maserati level talent. Right? This is by far the most talented player at the quarter. position that Mike McDaniel has ever coached.

Now you're talking to somebody that has a poster over his bed of Justin Herbert. So like this. He's never if you don't agree to this coach. Well look I I I I think after my pick for MVP went down I went to Justin Herbert route too was disappointed. So yeah hope hopefully we see it because we talk about it every year. Yes we do and we'll do it again this year. All right now it's time to jump in our RV and head to Cincinnati who or Joe Burrow spent half the last season on the sideline with his turf toe. He's ready to go this season where he's going to have to put up

big numbers to carry a Bengals defense that gave up nearly 29 points per game last year, third worst in the league. So my biggest camp storyline, frankly, is the offense good enough by itself to make the Bengals a legitimate Super Bowl contender. And that is not to say that they are not going to try to be the 20th ranked defense in the NFL, but it seems pretty clear, and this is follow the money in the NFL, right? When they paid Chase, they paid Burrow, they paid T. Higgins. They've retained their coaching staff on the offensive side of the ball. They are invested on the offensive side.

And so if you look at what it looks like when they're healthy, and the when they're healthy is a huge caveat. I understand that coach. But that offense is spectacular if those three guys can all be on the field together. Can they just score enough points to win this thing? I don't think they can score enough to win the Super Bowl, to not be able to play some level of complementary football. So if it's so skewed like we've seen in the past

where the offense is outstanding and the defense is borderline dismal, yeah, there's going to be days where the offense is off. There's going to be days where it's just not clicking. And if the other side has no chance to hold up their end of the bargain, it's not sustainable enough to be able to push through to a championship. Yeah, but this is why I put a lot of pressure on Zach Taylor. He has to respond better. The Bengals start off historically bad coming out of the gates.

And you know when you have a quarterback who's injury plagued, now that you do have a defense, you have to understand there's a chance Joe may get hurt, but we can't fall out of it early. Now we have an offense. We have the weapons on the outside. We have a fairly decent office line. We haven't run game. We still have to win games because we do have a defense.

So there's a lot of onus on Zach Taylor to respond better if the way. happens, which is Joe Burrow getting hurt again. Because they're using an excuse like, well, we don't have Joe, so there goes the season. That gets old. You still got to go out there and win games because you have enough talent. Is it talented? There is a talented enough roster to go beat some teams out there to keep you in a hunt. You are really optimistic.

They don't have Joe. I don't think they have any. Yeah. How long can we read the same story, Coach? Like, you have to have something to come back there. But that's the problem when you got an injury prone quarterback is, unfortunately, that's how it is every year. because the backups are... Right.

The Tom Moore quote that I can't say on TV, like why doesn't the backup quarterback plays because we don't practice blank? My pushback is we watch Mac Jones go out there and win games for the 49ers when Purdy went down. So at some point, it's an organization thing or whatever. You got to win games. Mac Jones came out there and put up a show

and kept the Niners in the hunt until Purdy was ready and they went to the playoffs. The Bengals have to do something. It can't be... If Joe's out, then we're out. Yeah, I think the advantage that Mac Jones had that team was a little bit more complimentary than Cincinnati is right now. And I don't know how much they really improved defensively.

Hopefully it's better than last year. Big upgrade. I just don't. I'm not. So you think, like, how good can they be? Like, when you say a big upgrade on the defensive side? I look at it as, like, they would sign on the dotted line right now for, we are the 21st best defense in the NFL.

I don't think that there's a path, really, for them to be a great defensive team. If they're going to win, we see this all the time. Like if they're going to win, Dallas is the same thing. Now, Dallas had a few higher profile investments on defense. But like, if Dallas is going to be great, they're going to have to be great because of their offense. If the bears are going to be great, they're going to have to be great because of their offense. If the Bengals are going to be great, it's going to be because of their offense. But I feel like the Dallas made more of a concerted effort than Cincinnati to really address things.

Yeah, we're getting Christian Parker and adding to some of the pieces. Yeah, and that's the other thing. The Bengals have this, they don't pay coaches to not work there. That's enough. And so they just keep bringing so many people back. And so it's continuity. I think they've added some veteran pieces that can really make hay and hold up. You get a guy like Dexlerrence who can literally, you talk about A.J. Brown,

tilting, you know, defenses rolling to him. I mean, you have to game playing for Dexter Lawrence. You don't just put your best guy against them. You have to operate in which way. This guy can be a game record. So, yeah, it's a big upgrade. All right. So let's head to Willie's favorite spot.

Here we go. I think you're driving the bus here. Okay. See, this is bad. I was 74 with the Steelers. We can't be lazy with the production. Oh, wow. Jesus.

Yeah. Already got me in the back of the van. Well, I don't know how we recovered there. 42-year-old Aaron Rogers is coming back for potentially his final season. And he loves hanging out with old friends. So my biggest camp storyline here is how is Aaron Rogers and Mike McCarthy going to No, everyone is saying, and I ran this by you coach a couple of weeks ago, so I'm going to throw it to Willie first. Everyone is saying that it's like, oh, it makes perfect sense.

They know each other. And obviously they do. And obviously they had a lot of success with each other. But that skips over how it ended. Like the last time that Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rogers were together. It was bad and it was publicly bad and it was bad for a pretty decent sample of a couple of years to the point where there was the breakup and people were. like, should Aaron Rogers retire? We were literally talking about Aaron Rogers retiring in 2018.

It's 2026. It's been a couple of head coaches, a couple of MVPs, a couple of teams, a couple of podcast appearances. The column on the left is dominance with Mike McCarthy. The column in the middle is, eh, not so great with Mike McCarthy. The column on the right, you know, is with Matt LaFleur where he won the MVP's. So I guess my question is, it's certainly possible that Mike McCarthy has gotten better. and learned new things, and he had success with Dak Prescott. Do you think there is a high ceiling with this offense, with this reunion, given Rogers'

limitations at this age of his career? Well, two things. I think you hit it right on the head. I think concern comes when adversity hits. It's all love and reunion and everybody's happy right now. But we know right now Aaron is older, a little more grumpy, a little more set in his ways. And Mike McCarthy, because he's homegrown, there's an expectation because of what he's been able to do in his career of producing an explosive offense.

Well, the Steelers weren't explosive last season, right? And so valid they were 15th in scoring. The goal is to get that to possibly 13 for 12 with Aaron Rogers. And if there's any turbulence in it, so to speak, can that union, can that relationship still mend and not feel separated? Because one is not getting what they want out of the relationship or the offense. I think right now for the Steelers, there's a big concern on the office line because the right side of the office line has now moved to the left. Troy Fetano and Mason McCormick are now on the left side. And now you have this big gap on the right side.

Could that be Dylan Cook? They have a competition under the right guard. Zach Frazier's playing center. All that together. It's a lot of questions. When you talk about the offense, even with the addition of Michael Pittman and D.K. has obviously been there. But with Rico Dato, it all starts up front.

So we watched the Steelers come out the gate a little slow and they kind of picked it up. I expect the same thing. But I expect the relationship of what they had and what they've been able to produce in the past, reinvent itself, and they play out of high level. I don't know how high the ceiling is, but this is, they're going to reach the highest possible ceiling that they can together. So whatever it is, they're going to get there. Yeah, whatever the ceiling is for these two guys, they're going to, their best chance is reaching it together. And this is like one of those great bands that breaks up because, you know, the two leads want to have a solo career.

And they give back together for one tour. Where they are in their careers is so different than when they broke up in green. Green Bay. It's in Mike's best interest to make Aaron work. It's in Aaron's best interest to make Mike work. They know each other. They've got a history together. They've got reps and experiences that they can build off of. Again, I don't know what the ceiling is, but whatever it is, I would imagine they've got the best interest. Well, I do want to add quickly. I know we got a road. There's more pressure on Mike McCarthy to produce than there. Because when you replace a great legendary coach in Mike Tom. The one thing Mike T had gone from, he could put out fires.

Mike McCarthy has to prove he can still put out fires if things go awry with this or with this team. Because when you have Randarjans, you have this one of the highest paid defenses in league, you're expected to win and get in and do what you do. So I don't know if many people are expecting them to win. I am DP. Okay. Loser. That's number 74 of the Pittsburgh Steelers expected big things.

66 on your postcard, 74 in your heart. There you go. Here. As we talk about Caleb Williams. And I'm going to try to convince. There it is. lazy production, not here at first things first, whether or not Caleb is going to come up. Postles like Chuck Noble.

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August 9th, only on Fox. Back here on first things first with Coach and Willie, Let's Talk Bears. They led the NFL with six fourth quarter comebacks last season. It's totally sustainable guys. Caleb Williams, pretty much. Promptor said it. not me, he's the equivalent of Michael Jordan. But Caleb is hoping that this season, you know,

it requires a little less of the dramatic. So Ben Johnson met the media earlier today, and he was kind of saying the same thing about consistency with a ton of praise for his quarterback. Take a listen. I mean, he's got it all, Stacey. There's really nothing I don't think that he can't do. It's just elite armed talent, playmaking ability,

escapeability. he has his legs that he can hurt a defense with. I mean, there's just so many layers to who he is as a player. I think that word consistency comes up over the course of a 60-minute game or more if we need it to where we're playing high-level quarterback play throughout that game. I mean, you see flashes of it, and yet we're trying to tap into that where we're just consistently delivering the ball

where it needs to go, giving it to our guys around us, And then we all know that he has that ability to put on that Superman cape when the time calls for it. So I think everyone would agree, a little bit more consistency from Caleb Williams would be nice. Look at him. He coach his face. Oh, right. Mr. Smirk over there. Ben Johnson's willing to say it.

I'm certainly willing to say it. Do you expect Caleb to build off last year's success? We didn't hear the sound from Caleb, right? Didn't he talk about this year? He's hoping it's more entertaining and more exciting. But he was saying more exciting throughout the course of the game. Yeah, he just sounds just more exciting, more entertaining. I didn't hear him talk about consistency.

I didn't hear him talk about efficiency. And when you hear Ben Johnson talk, it was the classic compliment sandwich, right? 50 accolades, all of the great things you can do. And then it's like, you know, but we really need some consistency throughout the course of the game of high level quarterback play. Oh, but he can put on a Superman cape. So it was like that compliment sandwich of I better flatter him. Leadership 101. I better flatter them.

Then I give the reality of the situation, and then I better flatter him again because we don't want to hurt his feelings. Can do you expect Caleb to build on last year's success? I hope he builds on last year's success. Do I expect it? I'm not sure what to expect. I think that when he came into the league, he had this assumption that it was going to be easy

and that he was going to take the league by storm, and he was going to take the league by storm, and he found out that it was dramatically different. And then with the transition to Ben Johnson, there was a lot more, it seemed openness on his part to do the things that he was being asked to do. Now he's had another level of success. Does he go back to kind of that,

hey, I've got the right answers. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. We'll come back in the end. Or is he going to lean into what Ben Johnson's saying and really push the things forward that he needs to push forward? Yeah, my expectation, for Caleb is for his ability to process things faster, right? And that turned every snap into backyard football,

to be a more quarterback that plays four quarters of efficient football and have command. I think when you look at him, we love to highlight the throws and all that stuff. And I think if you ask Ben Johnson, I think he would like his quarterback just to command an offense and not force a fourth quarter quarterback. Because one, you know, the defense is going to be with the defense, but offensively, they can be a stable and play at neutral.

It doesn't have to be an action hero type performance for the Bears to win all the time because that does burn the candle. And so I'm, listen, I love Caleb. I don't want to hate on the man, but I think he's a rising star. And I think right now he has to be able to be willing to play boring football, which we said time after time on the top. So he has talked about being more consistent and not needing to rely on the heroics in the fourth quarter. So he has echoed that with the coach.

have no questions about the work ethic. I want to put this up on the screen, and you guys tell me what I'm missing. And maybe I am, if I'm doing this through Bears colored glasses, you tell me. But 2024, that's his rookie year. Five and 12, 18 points per game, 20 touchdowns, the most sacked quarterback in 20 years of football. Facts. So year one of Ben Johnson is the column on the right. And he said, this was on the record, he's like, we have to stop the negative plays.

He's like the negative plays will kill a drive. They will kill a possession. They will kill our offense. He went from the most sacked player in 20 years to it was not a problem. 24 sacks. That is like a totally reasonable for a guy who the reputation is. He turns his back to the offensive line. He's freelance.

He's freelancing on 24 sacks. I will sign up for that every year for the rest of Caleb's career and be thrilled about it given that he played in all the games. So I just, if he improved over seven points per. game. He slashed his sack rate. He added seven wins to the record. He added 50% to his touchdown rate. Why would I not expect him to continue improving when everybody agrees he's an elite talent and everybody agrees that Ben Johnson's an elite coach? Why would I not expect it to keep getting better? Because the Caleb Williams that we're looking for, it showed up in the second half of games. You understand, after the second Viking game, the second time they played the Vikings,

that's when the light turned on for Caleb, right? That's when we started. He got better as the year went on. Right, but we looked at them differently after that game because I think he put up like 14 touchdowns and he only had like three interceptions after that game. So why wouldn't that continue? It can continue. It's predicated too on his openness to continue it. And I do think.

I just have no reason to doubt that. Well, I do. But when he came into the league, didn't you think there was a bravado that probably hurt him initially and an assumption that things were going to be easy? And then he got humbled. and as a humbled player, he seemed a lot more open to what was being asked of him. And now he's had another layer of success. Do we go back to sort of doing it our own way?

Or do we, like I said, lean into what's going to collectively lift the team? A lot. Yeah, but he still has Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson is not going anywhere. Listen, I think Caleb is excellent, obviously. But I also look at Ben Johnson as a Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan, Andy Reed-Calliber, offensive mind and offensive play caller who is just going to be the guy who gets the most out of his quarterback. I think it goes back to Coach says it's about the buy-in.

Does he continue to buy-in and understand the structure and what they want to do? And not say, hey, man, I hear you, but this is what I do? Because he did have a lot of success. They have, what, seven prime time games? The Bears will be the most watch next to the rim, most watch team. television next season. Do you buy it's a bear's way or is it Caleb Williams way? We have to see.

Trevor Lawrence had a rough first year and then had a much better second year and then it's been it's been a little bit like this over time. But he's had multiple coaches. Okay, but what I'm saying is he's had multiple coaches too because of the way he's played. Typically great quarterbacks don't have multiple coaches.

Right, right. I think we're doing this show nine years from now and we're talking about the first 10 years of the Caleb Williams, Ben Johnson era together. I don't think that Caleb Williams is going to be some guy that gets coaches fired in Chicago. Let's stick in the NFC North, though. Jordan Love and company have the second best odds to win the division behind the Detroit lines, which must be a misprints because the bear did it last year.

And the Packers quarterback thinks that they got the pieces to make a deep run. Here's Jordan Love. I'm excited. I love the guys we got. I love the team we've got. I think everybody's in a good place. And so now it's time to get back to training camp and keep building on the things we left off on in OTA. and get ready to attack the season.

Nick Wright loves that bucket hat. Willie, Jordan Love, about 10th best MVP odds. They were 9-3-1 last year when Micah Parsons was playing, and he has had multiple stretches in his career where he looks like he can be an MVP player. Do you think he'll be in the MVP conversation this year? I think it depends on the hell of Tucker Kraft because the relationship they developed in the first year was amazing. For that young man, and the way him and Jordan had their report, it was great. And the offensive line, obviously, the health of them.

But I think Jordan Love has consistently showed up. Now, the question is, has he gotten rid of the bonehead mistakes in crucial situations? Nah, I feel like he has. But I think when you look at this team as a whole, man, defensively, they kind of, they fell out. When Michael was gone, so was the rest of the team. They were 15 and 3 up until week 15. Then Michael got hurt. And then the whole team, they bottomed out.

So without the defense backs them and they stay healthy, Yes, because I think he has that type of talent. He will continue to play well. Yeah, what's so interesting about watching his career, remember it was three years ago where he had that he got hot late and they won six out of the final eight and then they beat Dallas in Dallas. He had that nine game stretch where he had like 20 touchdowns in one pick. And I was like, oh, I hate him.

Red hot. They beat Dallas. Dallas hadn't been beaten at home in forever. Yep. Huge upset. And then they go toe to toe in the next round. And he gets the new kind. contract and the next year, there's still this pattern of when he's hot, he's red hot.

So good. So he's either like an A plus or he's somewhere in the 80s or he's a B. There aren't a lot of those games that are in between. Now, if he can get hot later in the season like he's shown at different points, then he could definitely be in that MVP conversation because he's shown that ability. But it's the high and the low. And last year, they lost. their last five games. Now, he didn't play all those games. And then they blow the, what was it, an 18

point lead against Chicago? You know, they're an 18 point lead going in the second half. You'd like to think that he could have done something there to hold on. And he made the mistake at the end of that game. Like, Jordan Love doesn't throw a lot of interceptions. But when he throws interceptions, they're like, these are like some of the worst interceptions that I've ever seen. But he doesn't throw a lot of them. And to your point, he is a very exciting player to watch. Because he is streaky. He throws the ball down the field. Sometimes I'm like, it's, it's third and three, and he throws the ball. Let it fly. He throws the 20 yards down the field. I'm like, my, that is, that is not

necessary. But his highlights are really exciting. It shows a very high ceiling. So I definitely think he can be in the MVP conversation. The NFC North, and we'll get into this more over the next month, it is just so loaded. Like, it is, I mean, the Vikings feel like they upgraded it quarterback and they have the best coaching staff in the division. I don't agree with that, but like Brian Flores is still there. They got Kevin O'Connell. They got a ton of talent and they got Kyler Murray. The Lions, they're the

favorites. They are a loaded offensive team with some real talent on defense. The Bears won it last year, won a playoff game, have Caleb, have Ben Johnson, feel like they're ascending. And then there's the Packers that feel like they have got the best roster when Mike is healthy, but he's going to miss the first four to six games.

The margin between first and fourth in this division is going to be so razor thin that it might for the Packers just come down to. Is it a good streak for Jordan Love or a bad streak? But if they win the division, he absolutely can win the MVP. Yeah. And if he can just bring some of those Bs up to A minuses or B pluses, those numbers that he had, which are a lot of really good numbers,

a lot of really good performances, he makes the argument stronger and stronger. Yeah, I also think he, you know, the one caveat to that, losing Romeo Dodds may hurt him because he was a monster in the red zone for the Packers. So, you know, they're going to have to find production in other ways. But I think when it comes down to him, you put him toe to toe to at all the other quarterbacks in the division. Like he's arguably there all the time as far as stats, you know, with the numbers. He's always that has a place at the table. So like I think coach said it, I think it just a matter of him being consistent and not having some up and down that can hurt him.

Listen, the Micah thing is telling, right? He's going to miss the first part of the season. but they are doing that out of an abundance of caution because they want him to be 100% because they absolutely believe that they're a Super Bowl contender when healthy. And when Micah played last year, they were a dominant football team.

But that's why the onus is on Jonathan Gannon to hold the ship down until he gets back. And they have enough, I think so, to do so. He's in such a unique spot too with Brett Farve and Aaron Rogers having to follow that car. Well, that's why it's infuriating as a Bears fan. It's like, this is the guy you get

After, after those. Like, he's really good. He's really good. With really high expectations. With really high expectations. Back here on first things first talking Shador Sanders, because yesterday, Willie Cologne said the people of Cleveland want Shador. Shador time.

Coach Manjini was like, I live in Cleveland. They don't. Shadur went three and four his rookie year with a whopping seven touchdowns against 10 picks. He's now in a quarterback battle with the Sean Watson. But luckily, Shadur, this might shock you. He does not lack any confidence. Take a listen. This way, this route that I'm going,

I have no choice but to be great. Yeah. Because I understand it. That's why I have the confidence to even do this, to even come up here and do it because it's like, I understand, you know, what has to be done. I understand what my purpose is and everything aligns. To me, I had to prove to myself,

I don't need anything to make myself feel as powerful as I am. You know, like within myself. Coach, you've spent a lot of time in Cleveland. This is going to be a much discussed quarterback battle, and I'm not sure there's a great answer, honestly, but would it be a mistake for Shador to not start week one? I don't think it's necessarily a mistake. And look, Shador's numbers last year,

I don't know what number we're looking at that Shadur had that says, hey, this guy should be the day one starter with no competition. He had 56% completion. He had a 68.1 quarterback rating. He was sacked almost 10% of the time. He threw more picks than he threw touchdowns. So you go down the list and it's like, okay, what's the compelling statistic that says, yeah, definitely day one starter. And as bad as Deshaun's been in terms of expectations versus reality, he's never had a season where he's thrown more picks than touchdowns.

He's never had a quarterback rating under 79. Under 79. So, yeah, has it been great? Has it been anywhere near what they want? No, it's been an absolute disaster. But that doesn't mean you just say, we're not going to let these two guys compete and let the best man win. And now you've got a new head coach that's not invested in either guy.

So hopefully he looks at this as objectively as you possibly can and makes an unemotional decision that ideally gives you the best chance to win that may not be good enough at the end of the day with either guy. Yeah, well, I think we could also understand last year for sure was a rocky one. He didn't start right away. He pretty much was throwing in there and had to figure it out and he had a rookie season.

His numbers are what they are. But I think turning to a guy who hasn't played in a long time coming off two Achilles surgeries and asking him to be competent enough to run an office that still has deficiencies, I feel like it sets them back. I think if you allow Shadu, to your point,

take the motions out of it. If he's not good, Don't play him. Deshawn's the guy. But I think you also understand, like, if the way they are building this roster, which is with young, talented guys and they continue to build high quality pieces around Chador, then you have to understand that's going to help elevate his game as well. And he gets more cracks at the apple. He will become a more competent and more deliberate quarterback. Now that takes time. Hopefully Tom Monk and him could get on the same page where he's a little more efficient and complete. But it's going to take time.

And Cleveland does have time, believe it or not, because they let go. Miles Garrett, right? They continue to draft young. So this thing is development. This thing is a project. So allow you to do it to lead the project. So I think quarterback battle is fine. My guess is both guys play. But I would just, I'd

write it in permanent marker that the Browns are drafting a quarterback next year. I just, Deshawn Watson is the worst return on investment in NFL history and arguably in sports history. They gave him a fully guaranteed $230 million contract, gave up all those first

round picks and he has played 19 games since he's been in Cleveland, then he has 19 touchdowns. He's been awful, but to your point, he's never quite been as bad as Shador Sanders was last year. Which was his rookie year, by the way. I get it. There is. And if Shadur was a first round pick and that was his rookie year, I would be more willing to be like, okay, it's his rookie year. But you are not committed to him in any meaningful way with draft capital that you spent, with money that you owe him. You spend a fifth round pick on him. Fifth round picks get moved on from all the time. Like that might have been

like if Deshawn Watson wins this job and Deshawn Watson plays serviceable football, that might be Shador's only shot. Like that's that is. You're still going to draft the guy. That's what I'm saying. And then that player would be in front of Shador, you know, next year in Cleveland. But now you

have, but you're also looking for a guy to what help mentor a guy when he's that injury prone instead of having a young quarterback in place and grow another young quarterback. Now you have two young quarterbacks that can grow in a Nief one system seems like more of an efficient way of going about. Well, we live in a time now where we've seen quarterbacks that were once great quarterbacks or quarterbacks with high expectations that failed that suddenly have a fairy tale, you know, sort of second act with Sam Darnold, with Baker, with Gino, like the guys who

have. You're saying for Deshaun. Well, I'm just saying, yeah, this isn't out of the realm of the possibility where a guy who is once a very talented player comes back and shows the talent again because we've seen it with quarterbacks now, actually multiple quarterbacks now. But they're going to have those type of injuries, Coach. Like, Deshawn is cooked. I'm not saying for the neck up, he's not competent. Physically, I don't think he can be what we thought of what he used to be. And he may not be able to.

I'm just saying it's not out of the realm of possible. If he is physically okay to play and they're going to be able to see that on the field, it's not out of, it's not unbelievable to a guy that once was extremely talented to once again perform at a, I'm not saying it's going to be like he was, but at a level. Right, you're not talking about the 5,000-yard season he had at 23 years old, Bill O'Brien, one of the great seasons we've seen. We've seen guys who everybody completely written off who had talent and ability that suddenly have a second act that's like, wow, that's amazing.

And you said, you know, Todd Munkin should be able to look at it with clear eyes. Ken ownership. The ownership gave him $230 million guaranteed all of those drafts. My gut tells me like if Ty goes to the runner in Little League, my gut is Ty would go to Deshawn Watson. But that's the problem.

The mistake would be if Shador beats him out in Kent, but because of Deshaun Watson's contract and everything that comes with him, you have to put him out there. I think that's the mistake. If he beats him out, I will give them the benefit of the doubt that he'll play. But if it's close, and I'm like, wow, we do not have

a good quarterback here. My gut tells me they'll play the guy that they've paid a ton of money to. Yeah, absolutely. That is, that tends to be how it goes. Unfortunately, ownership will sometimes stick their finger on the scale and way one way or the other. Hopefully, though, when you hire a new head coach, you let him do the things that he thinks are right. We'll be following this quarterback controversy all through training camp.