Football Daily - 72+ EFL Pod: Inside Hull’s promotion & Spygate drama

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

Hull City assistant Dean Holden joins Aaron Paul, Jobi McAnuff & Bromley boss Andy Woodman as they react to the EFL play-off finals. Plus hear from Steven Schumacher, Dave Challinor, Martin Paterson and Karl Robinson. Messages and voicenotes always welcome on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369.01:15 How’s Bromley prep for League One going? 02:15 Hull City assistant Dean Holden joins the pod, 08:25 How Hull did it even with a transfer embargo, 10:35 Coming through Spygate & late change in opponent, 14:15 Working with ‘old-school’ Sergej Jakirović, 18:45 What does summer look like for Hull City? 21:15 Middlesbrough’s Wembley curse continues, 26:50 Bolton’s Steven Schumacher, 32:05 Stockport’s Dave Challinor, 34:40 Is it right for the play-off finals to have VAR? 37:30 Notts County’s Martin Paterson, 41:30 Salford’s Karl Robinson.5 Live / BBC Sounds commentaries: Wed 2000 Crystal Palace v Rayo Vallecano in the UEFA Conference League Final, Sat 1700 PSG v Arsenal in the UEFA Champions League Final, Sun 1500 Brighton & Hove v Man City in the Women’s FA Cup Final.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. 30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the U.S. government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver, but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice. Thirty years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention?

mention. For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. 72 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McEnough. Hello, everybody. Welcome along to 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport on the Football Daily as we come to the conclusion of another remarkable EFL season. whole city, Baltimore Wanderers and Notts County, all victorious in the playoffs at a magical weekend at Wembley. The final ball has been kicked and now it's time for the final word on the football league in 2025-26. As ever, joining me an ever-present. You're not really an ever-present this season, but you know what I mean. Jobby McEnough is with us.

How are you, Jobes? What do you mean I'm not an ever-present, mate? You've missed loads of shows. Oh, come on. You know me, I don't miss them. I'm here. Whatever the weather. start the last part of the season basically

Sam I'm a part-timer you're not a part-timer it's not a never present they've had fitness issues in places it's the age mate it's the age little niggles at this age you know I mean great to be with you one man who's been a stellar signing for us on 72 plus

is the Bromley manager now League one Bromley manager Andy Woodman Woody how are you really good thanks really good yeah A little break but not so much as a break the phone don't stop now does it it's non-stop players agents

all sorts going on. How's that all going? I was prep for League one going. Slow, because we're last pick in everyone's eyes. And the season hasn't really finished until now. So you're trying to touch base of a few agents and a few players, but they're just testing you out

and it is a long summer now of trying to get every player in the door. For Bromley, we need to have six or seven. How many done? None, none at the moment. How many near? None. So I'm really on top of the things at the moment. We ought to get them all in, but I sort of like, you know, the first

you could, yeah, great, okay, cool. I do you'd ask me, who's done, that's why, I didn't say anything. Come on. We got a couple, we got a couple bubbling away at the moment, but it's, it's, it's too early. It's really too early. They'll go to town, their agents and all other sort of opportunities for us before they come back to us. Agents hit him up, andy.

combe.combe at Bromleyfc.co.com. UK. Also with us is Dean Holden the whole city assistant head coach during the country in a moment. So I just want to take congratulations first off. What a way to win a player final right at the death. Incredible. Seeing it on the TV over the years and when you're part of it. Joby, have you cooled down yet? How warm was it? We're at Wembley on Saturday. Ridiculous, especially in the blazer, I've got to say. But then the managers had a bash as well. I'm thinking, boys, you've got to get those jackets off, man. To be fair, it was like

sort of right who's going to win who's going to keep the jacket on the longest it was sort of like a battle of wheels and they've both absolutely gone through it I think it would have come off for extra time which everyone was thinking and then Bosch McBurney steps up there you go and you guys are wheeling away

so yeah what a dramatic way to finish tonight everybody was dreading extra time weren't they with that heat as well so yeah we were happy happy to win it in the 94th minute best way to do it how's the season been you had fun oh I've loved every minute of it first of all Sergi any staff have come over from Croatia

so you've got to establish a relationship with them guys. I've obviously come in sort of through the club really to sort of guide them and try to help them with the beauty of the championship and everything that that entails. But you can't just manufacture that relationship. That trust element takes time to grow and you've got a graft away and show the manager that you're part of, you know,

you're worthy being part of his staff. So that's been an ongoing thing throughout the season, but I think the respect is mutual both ways and the players deserve all the credit, as do the recruitment team. led by Jared and Hodgy because obviously we had the embargo two days after taking the job

no one knew it was coming and we had work to do at that point to get a squad capable of probably a top 10 finish really in fairness for no no what the boys have done is yeah that's off to him it's been incredible it feels like a very much a Dean Holden team

as well as a Sergio Kiriich team in the sense of... No I mean I'm not saying it like that but you know having watched you a lot of weight I mean being rigid being strong being impactful when you need to be impactful, not shirking any challenges, and then lightning quick on the counter.

You've actually been a joy to watch. Yeah, no, that's good to hear. I'm sure the fans have enjoyed the journey. Obviously stayed up last game or last season through goal difference to then go and get promoted. I think Sergey said after the game, there was only a couple of players in that team at the weekend that new players from the squad

that finished the last game last season at Portsmouth. So some turnaround. We played to the strengths of the players that we had. As I say, recruitment was really difficult because you can't spend a penny in, you know, You look at some of the players in the squads and the managers in the championship. It's real high level nowadays. And tactically, you've got to be on your game.

Never more so than against Kim's Middlesbert team. Because I think they've been top since he's come in, the way that they give you problems with the rotations throughout the centre of the pitch to give you all kinds of issues. And you've got to be comfortable without the ball now. Of course, next season we're going to try to have a bit more the ball if we can, but you have to play to the strengths of your team. And we've been really solid.

We've outscored opposition. The XG will tell you that a lot of games we've been on. the wrong side of it, but we've got lads who can find moments in Geldar and and Kyle Joseph and all him at Bernie. Oh, like the boy, Bouloumi. Oh, yeah, we're missed him. We've missed him most of the season for injury. That's been the real shame, but he's a standout player at this level. I did say, I think he'll go on and play Premier League.

Luckily, it's going to be with Hull City now because there might have been a chance we may have lost him in the summer because he's very, very good player, off that right wing, left-footed. Sort of most-salar-esque, not in terms of the elite level, but the way that he plays, he draws defenders, he passes, he follows, and his end products. absolutely outstanding. He's got a bit about him, Dino. I saw him coming off the other day,

and he didn't look very happy. I've got to be on, I'll put it mildly. He looked a lot happier up on the balcony when it was all said and done. Is he one of those in terms of management-wise? Because I remember in the game coming on, he wasn't quite ready, and, you know, just that balance of getting the best

out of those sort of maverick-type players and maybe indulging a little bit on the behaviour side. Yeah, I think so, Joe. And there's been times this year where he's been coming back from injury and the modern day with the sports science and the loading and data and we need another week

he needs another two weeks and when you speak to him he's like no I'm ready to go I'm ready to play now he got injured again he come back from his cruise ship being out for over a year we got him back fit

and then I think it was boxing day at Hillsborough really innocuously pulled his armstring he weren't even sprinting he just went to control the ball and that was a bit of a sign really that he probably wasn't as ready as maybe we thought he was

but we're lucky enough we got him back fit before the end of the season you're right the second leg away at Millwall didn't have his pads on, didn't have his boots on. So Sergi being Sergey, just turned around. Yeah, he just turned around to Geldar and said, come on.

Geldar, you come on, Joe, you can come on instead. So any man for himself, Jop, I couldn't wait to get his bib off and he stood doing burpees at the front of the, and luckily Mo, because he went on to score the winner, obviously, a brilliant, brilliant goal. Luckily, he was ready to come on the pitch. So you are right, you are right. There are them certain types of individuals and personalities that you've got to manage, but I think I are experiencing a game talking probably myself and of yourself,

of yourself over the years you pick up little nuggets from managers you played for and your own experiences as well. Just on personalities. Tell me about the owner. I met him on Saturday, him and his entourage that are with him, great bunch who are all which is absolutely buzzing, but he was very much level-headed. Great, great quote from him. He told me even Real Madrid wouldn't have been able to score past us once we took the lead. What's he like working with day-to-day? He's all in. Since he sort of relinquished his role at Fenabachi last summer, he's been very, very prominent this season at the training ground at the games.

Huge support for the manager. And he's just, his heart's in the right place. You're right, people talk about the amount of people he brings over from Turkey. I think he had 450 people at the weekend. But he genuinely is a person who wants to help other people's lives. So we bring people over from Turkey who are having a tough time. There's a guy I met who unfortunately lost his wife a couple years ago. and he went out of his way to contact him,

brought him over to the game. So he's that type of guy, he really is. He's obviously very wealthy, and we've obviously got a lot of work to do this summer in terms of obviously adding to the squad to try to maintain our survival next year, but I don't think we could have a better owner in charge and not just him.

It's the people around him. I think good leaders bringing people who are very, very good at the jobs and let him get on with it, and he's certainly done that. Do you think the window brought you some form of stability because, again, at how it's been, you all revolving doors,

syndrome, obviously different managers, different air coaches, but to have a solid group to work from and to know this is what we're dealing with, this is who we've got. That surely was a plus point and a benefit this year. It didn't feel like that at the time, Aaron. I'll be honest with you. I think two or three days after starting preseason,

it came literally out of the blue. So, yeah, we got to work quickly. And that's what I'm talking about good people in jobs. I mentioned Jared and Odgy already, but they're experienced guys who've been in these types of situations before. So there was no panic. I think if anything, it sharpened our lens in terms of, okay, who are the types of players we need to go and get?

Obviously, it takes away all them different categories. Have you got that to spend? And then you've got that, and we literally had nothing. So, okay, free transfers, what does it look like? And we recruited well in the loan market as well. And like I say, it was players that would bring that experience to help the younger ones. So, you know, you're John Egan's, Lundstrom. Close.

Obviously, we've talked about Ollie already. Louis Coil, the skipper. Kieran Dowell's coming in January, not played a lot, but been at that level. And just the way that they guide these youngsters day-to-day. a very hard campaign in the championship I think that's been a massive part of why we've done what we've done I mean embargues are like dental appointments

isn't it? You know like a filling gets knocked out where I've got to go there you don't expect it but it comes and slaps you in the face yeah but you're filling only last for a couple of days don't you please well that must have been a real blow to right before the season started you've got an embargo

I mean Gaffa's been there you guys you don't even unpack your crates yet and bang there you go first challenge does it add to your spirit your desire does it, you know, was against the world, I think a little bit, but it weren't something that, again, going back to Sergey, the way that he manages day to day, even with a spy gate and all the nonsense and all the noise

for the last couple of weeks going into the final. It wasn't something that we, like, talked about every day. We dealt with it, and then we get on with it. And I think that's been the way the team have handled the season. We've had some, as most managers will tell you, we've had an incredible amount of injuries that we, obviously we need to have a little look at throughout the sort of season review.

But we've just managed to get over the bumps in the road and not make too big a fuss about it and just try to create a group, which is, yeah, a bit of a season mentality, but also going through a few problems and whatever else that entails. We just find a way to get over it and not sort of make too much of a fuss.

You know, we'll just want to, one more on Sky again. Listen, we spoke about it so much this season. You know, you guys have had to be the ones to overcome it. And it's easy to sit here now and say, you know, we just had to get on with it. But how difficult was it, you know, leading up to it, obviously preparing for a different opposition? You know, how close were you as a club

in terms of when that news came out and then, you know, that sort of pivot point between right now they're gone and now we have to go and concentrate on Middlesbrough who again, like you said, tactically we're a fantastic football side and difficult and completely different to prepare for. You know, what was going through your mind,

the manager's mind and the player's minds at those points. I mean, yeah, there's a few things to unpick their jobs, but I think the first one is from a communications point of it. There's no blame anywhere here. We were getting information via friends in the media, radio, television. I was actually driving home from training when the news landed about that they'd overturned it.

So the analyst had 45 minutes kit, 45 minutes kit the day before our plus one session. So obviously it got overturned on the Wednesday night. We were back in on the Thursday. We were due to do our main tactical session that day and then travelled out of London and he'd come in, he'd had 45 minutes kip. So that's the sort of work that goes behind the scenes.

We've not got massive amounts of staff. But we got the job done. done, as I said there, and the way it all panned out, luckily, because I don't think you can watch an opposition in terms of when you're prepping for an opposition. You can watch an opposition without looking at who they're playing on that day. So obviously we'd watched a lot of Middlesbrough anyway. We'd obviously played them twice.

You've got your dossier on them. Obviously watching them two playoff games. I'm watching and focusing on Southampton. Of course, you're looking at Middlesbrough to see what problems they gave them, etc. So, yeah, there was a good understanding of what they were going to do. We weren't sure if Hackney was going to be fit. I thought he was outstanding, by the way, when he came on for that final bit of the game. He was going to be a top, top.

player and there's some top players in there. Tommy Conway another one who I had at Bristol City who was in tears on the pitch, how his seasons unraveled from going to the World Cup and potentially getting promoted to the Premier League. So there's a lot of stories. I don't think anybody wins in this situation, I'll be honest, it's obviously a very unique situation what has happened.

I'm just glad that we got over the line. Just out of interest. What was it like? From afar watching everything a bit sort of, you know, unfold with regards to spike it, because everyone sat watching rolling news, scrolling social media, hearing whispers, it's kind of what happens.

I've heard X, Y, Z, blah, blah, I's heard. But with you guys, knowing your place is guaranteed in the player final, and you can't cop out now because the game's done, don't tell you want to go tell us, business as usual, we're just doing nothing, because you're not, you're talking about at the time, it's the talk of everywhere. What was it like for you guys? I think the biggest thing for us was making sure the players were calm,

and again, I think Andy will probably say the same thing. I think nowadays there's a lot of meetings, and the game's changing very, very quickly. And for me, the information you give to the players has to be so clear and concise. So we didn't go too heavy too early in that prep week because we knew there might have been a change on the Middlesbury one. So obviously as a staff behind the scenes,

we're trying to take a lot of the load. But for me, I think you've got to make sure a little bit like the, I always think it's a little bit like the stewardess on a plane. I don't like flying, I'll tell you that for a fact. And whenever I see a bit of turbulence and I see the stewardess, abandon the trolley and strap herself and it makes me panic. How many times are?

It makes me panic. Only a couple of times, but it's scary enough when it does. When you see him continuing to serve the drinks with a smile, even though there's turbulence, I think now that we're all right here, everything's calm. And that for us was the way we had to deal with it as a staff because if we'd have shown any panic or anything like that to the players, I think they'd have picked up on it. The old swan effect.

On the top of the surface, going smooth, feet going under these. The front's all right, the backs on fire. We've got to see that probably. Tell us about the gaffer. I love him. I don't know what it is about him, but I'm besotted by this man. Again, the football's great, but his personality is so fun. It's just brilliant.

Yeah, incredible character. And not just Sir Guy, the staff, the guys he's brought across with him. Players love him to bits. People, we were talking before, people call it old school. He's got very, what you were classes nowadays, old school manners, ways of working. Doesn't overindulge the players. It's very black and white in terms of his communication. He's a great communicator, as I have to say, in a second language,

which must be so difficult. He's got the players on side and he's played to a style which I say, which suits the team that we've got, he's not come in and brought his own philosophy and gone, right, everybody needs to adapt to me. He's learned on the job. He's said himself throughout the season.

Things that he thought maybe could work in the championship in terms of scheduling, in terms of training, in terms of days off, he's had to adapt. I mean, that's his biggest strength. He's being able to adapt to a situation and not repeat the similar mistakes that you might maybe make in the early parts of the season and that's, yeah, that for me.

again being one of the big things. You learn any Croatian or? One or two, yeah. One or two. Sweet words. Oh, he's mustered in that technical area him and Marco. And they're going at each other in this Vulcan language. And the dugout's getting a slap every now and again. Incredible. I mean, you've seen, obviously, he's been sent off a couple of times

and Markov the same. And he's just, he's firing the belly. He's like you'd imagine the Balkan to me. I mean, I went face to face him last season, which wasn't the smart thing to do, but ended up getting me the job, believe it or not. We were both out in Turkey at different clubs, and he was trying to, as foreigners do, you remember the old Dickanyo one when they stick in the yellow, imaginary yellow card,

and I was basically saying, you can't be doing that, that's, and he come marching over to our technical area, six foot five, and I thought, I can't, my dad was in the stand, I thought there's no way I can not front this one up, so we went face to face.

I asked a photographer at my old club Demis Sports has found that he couldn't find the picture, he'd been a belt in photograph. Oh, brilliant. And when the job come up in the summer, I think he met three of us, in terms of English coaches and previous managers,

championship experience, all that type of stuff. And it was Marco, his assistant, said, you know, that's that fella that that stood up to you last season. We had minus 22 points because of the financial regularities. They were relegated when I got there in February. And they just liked the fact

that I was prepared to still fight for three points. And that's what we do in England, isn't it? Yes, you know what I mean? It's amazing. That's stated his head. Exactly. You end up working with him. Yeah.

Brilliant. You're a brave a man than me, Dina. Because we had him over at the desk after the game and he's absolutely huge. So I think if he'd come and put it on me, I would not be backing that up, but you obviously worked out well for yourself. I just wanted to touch on that.

You know, I'm not just sitting here because you're on here today. I've mentioned it, you know, throughout the you guys' progress, but how important your role is for a manager that, because that was my big doubt about whole city, yes, you know, in Bargo, but a manager coming over who's not familiar with the championship specifically. He seems as though he's one of those, and you've touched on it already,

that will take your advice, your opinion, earn your experience on board of just how to navigate what we all know is a really, really tough league. So how, I suppose, refreshing and enjoyable, has that been for you in your role? Really vastly experienced. You've been a number one, different type of role now. But in terms of you getting the enjoyment out of the role, having someone who does take that on board.

Yeah, it's a good point, Job, I think. The main thing for me last summer when I met him was, you've got to remember this, he's coming to one of the biggest leagues in Europe with his staff. He's earned that. Dynamo Zagre. They got to the Champions League. I'd have really won some trophies. And the club are basically saying,

we're going to give you an English coach to work alongside you. That's the facts of it. So that's why I talked about the trust element before. So for me, it was making sure I wasn't just going to be a tick in the box, just the guy in the corner that they'll all speak Croatian, and then every now and again they'll get me involved and say you take a passing drill or you do the warm-up or something like that.

So it was making sure that there was going to be enough for me in terms of adding my insight and my experiences. And that's where he's been, yeah, really open. The reason he's such a good manager is like, like I said before, he allows people to get on with their job. So he'll let the coaches coach. I normally take the sort of pre-match meetings with the players because he likes the English language

and the little intricacies that that can bring tactically. And he oversees everything, and he'll step into a session every now and again. Some days he'll stay on the side. But he's just very, very good at just observing things rather than getting right involved in every single sort of micro-decision. So, yeah, I think that for me at the outset was really important. I didn't just want to be a tick in the box.

What does the summer look like for Hull, what the Hull need to be ready for with regards to the Premier League? What's the owner said in terms of ambition? What's the remit? Yeah, I know. I think Sergi had a meeting yesterday. It's been whirlwind, as you'd imagine, so we had said the game Saturday. I stayed overnight with my wife.

We went to the Bolton-stock-up game, watched my old team Bolton get promoted, which was great on Sunday. And then yesterday we had the bus touring horn. I know Sergey had a meeting with Aja and Jared, and I imagine. I'm not spoke to him on what that was, but putting some plans in place. I think what's important is that we realise how we've got in this situation in the first place in terms of the core group of players, the core squad members.

I'll probably talk about someone like Dylan Phillips, now who just popped into me who's played, I think, one game all season. Number two goalkeeper, who incredible every day in terms of like being a sparring partner. You can't, you know, again, I'm using a daft analogy now, but when a boxer is going into the arena, he needs to have planned and prepared properly going into it

and you need good sparring partners, you're going to push you, you're going to challenge you. Dylan's one of them types of examples. We need to keep obviously old of the core group that's got us there. Of course, the Premier League's a different beast in it. Of course, yeah. And you mentioned Dylan Phillips, I'd imagine in the dressing as well.

He's the character that brings it all together as well, and they're so important, so important, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Who's going to be that sort of Giovanni, like, figure for a whole, someone like that, where they can go and they can, you know, add something, add just a bit of stardust. Have you got that in the building? Well, I think we've talked already about one or two younger players that we've got,

but of course you're talking about established Premier League players there. There's a few that have played in the Premier League, not too many. We've got work to do. We know that as a club, but these conversations will be happening as I'm sat here right now.

The phone's going there, lighting up, as Andy said before, it's constant now and I'm on with the assistant, so imagine what Serge is going through. But yeah, we've got a lot work to do. And people say, you know, you're going to go and have a rest now

for a couple of weeks, and then you're going to get back to work. I don't mean you can do one without the other. I think you may be going on. It's non-stop. Yeah, I think day to day, you're not in the office as much. Obviously now the end of the season's coming. Doesn't mean to say you're not working away and having these conversations in their background.

So it's a brilliant situation to be in. I'll be honest. First time I've got into the Premier League, I'm really grateful for the opportunity to be a wonderful club and can't wait for it. Fantastic. Dean, enjoy having you on with us. Thank you so much coming. Congratulations to Andy as well. What an incredible season for Bromley. Talk about the underdogs. We've got the double underdogs on today, aren't we? Yeah, thanks very much. It's great to meet you, Andy. I mean that. Well done, man. Listen, I'm delighted for you, really am. It's a great story in it, the whole story. Absolutely. Brilliant.

100%. Elsewhere, Middlesbrough, the Wembley curse continues. But what a weird season for the borough. They start the season with Rob Edwards in charge before he left for Wolves in November. Kim Hellberg came in in his first season in English football. Borough, of course, on course the Automatic's top of the league at one stage until their form tailed off, dropping into the playoffs, everything that happened with SpyGate and ultimately it's defeat at Wembley.

Joby, let's just look at the end of the season. What do you make of it? Well, I think these are the situations now that, you know, we've all had a little bit of time to digest what happens. There's so much sort of hype surrounding the playoffs anyway, even more so in their case with obviously Spigate this season. I just feel you have to go back to that sort of little stretch where they were out. You know, Hayden Hattney, who's clearly one of the best players in the league,

if not the best player. We saw that when he came onto the pitch, not even, you know, fit. how many games he's missed and to come on and still look pretty much a cut above everybody else. And, you know, Morgan Whittaker out for that similar period of time. In that run of games where they just couldn't quite find those wins despite dominating games, and that for me is where they'd look back on the season and sort of feel that that was the opportunity missed. Then you go and get Tommy Conway injured, who's been a real ever-present, his energies, enthusiasm throughout this season. And it gives them a different dimension.

There's such a good technical team, players that want to come and link. you know, playing little pockets combined. He's the one that will always try and stretch. And I think missing him on the day was a huge, huge blow for them as well. So a lot to unpack. You know, he's done a brilliant job overall. But I think some clear direction is where they need to go to make sure they go one step further next year.

Do they lack an Olly McBurney in that side? Because, again, do they look someone just different, like someone who can change things up, you can throw them in and hope for the best? Exactly that. A little bit of a plan B to what they normally do, and Olly McBurney would have been that, that sort of player. And, you know, just speaking to Dean Offair there,

you know, the way they got Olly McBurney was genius, in my opinion, to get him into hell, and that's the difference. The one thing I would say, which I sort of, you know, thought about, it must have been difficult for them, you know, with the way they come into the final, we've all went on with Spiregate. And I just wonder whether they, kind of as a group of players, probably had a little bit of imposter syndrome

and a little bit of embarrassment, not embarrassment, but just felt we don't really deserve to be with the way it's come about. And that must have been tough for them as a football club and as a group of players for me. Yeah, it's a really interesting one, is it? I think you look at the emotional and psychological side of things that we're all clearly seeing what's out on a pitch on a Saturday or a Tuesday, but so much goes on behind the scenes.

And I think getting over that disappointment and also how late that disappointment was against Southampton, the emotional energy that they put into the. those two legs. I mean, the first game in particular, you know, up at Middlesbrough, they were brilliant for 45 minutes, you know, should have been clear, you know, two, three. If they're gone in at three-nil, no one even blinks. They were that superior. But they didn't, didn't take the opportunities, which again has been a bit of a theme of their season. Then to go lose it so late, you know, at St. Mary's to what was a really fortunate goal with everything that went on, then

not knowing that, you know, you are going to be playing and having to get yourself up again with a few days notice and I probably looked it a bit simplistically going well actually they've got enough opportunity they probably thought they were out you get yourself ready

as best you can but just trying to find that edge you know when there's so much at stake maybe you know and it's through no thought of their own really that sort of having to get to that level again you know to go and overcome you know how in the final

was just too much for them so Middlesbrott's set for a 10th successive season in the championship of course next season they'll be playing South for more reaction to Hull's playoff win, head over to the Football Daily feed on BBC Sounds, Joby myself and the brilliant former whole boss, Phil Brown, who just smiling ear to ear after that final whistle, had a good old chat, and we had a whole host of interviews featuring the whole city owner,

whole city manager and captain as well. And so very disappointed Kim Haleberg following that defeat at Wembley. Five lives four. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket you laugh. Lives on BBC Sounds. Smash straight back down the ground. This girl.

Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth cricket and it's the huge one. Jeez, worse. Settle that. Sorry, me. Cricket on Five Live in Sport. Oh, I'm living every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds.

30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the U.S. government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver, but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice, 30 years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention? For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts.

72 plus the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McEnuff. Baltimore's back in the championship for the first time in seven years beating Stoppot 4-1 under the arch in searing, 30 degree heat on Sunday lunchtime to seal their

place in the second tier, absolute scultural weekend. Woody, you had problems, jacket, no jacket, no jacket, jacket. It was hot. It was very hot. I went for the jacket, but I've regretted it after about 15 minutes. I was sweating. You've got to be careful

for the old patches and the old sweat patches. I had the blower on me I had the lot mate it was hot. Yeah, good man, good man. Let's hear from the winning coach Stephen Schumacher

lost 4-0 at Wembley to Bolton with his old Plymouth team in the EFL trophy final a few years back but this visit was a much better experience. I'm really pleased with that as it's certainly a better experience than the last time.

I coached there, so it was pressure on the game. There was an intense focus from our players. There was a real calmness about the whole group this time around. And we felt that we got the game plan right. And in the end, certainly in the second half, we showed our quality and in my opinion, deserve to win the game. So we have gone and enjoy our chance of the championship next year. And you reflect back on your time at this football club, everything that went on at Stoke coming here, coming to a club that was desperate to get out of this division,

but also wanting success for yourself as well. How proud of you of everything you. You're you've achieved and how do you reflect on it? I think it's honestly the biggest achievements in my career and we won the league. We're playing with our guy with a really, really small budget. So it shows how highly I rate this and the reason that is the case is because of the expectation, because of the pressure, because of some people may have doubted because of what happened at Stoke. I felt I'd worked really hard to get into the championship.

I obviously was let go by Stoke and I made a decision along with my agent. we had a few championship interviews, but I made the decision with my agent when this opportunity to come up, this is the one I really want to take because I think this club has got the scope to get into the championship and then kick on again.

You just have to look at that fan base today to show how big of a club it is. And if we get the investment in the summer to go and have a crack at the championship, then I can hopefully be in a better position than what I was at Stoke. How long do you take now before you sit and you actually start, you know,

fine-tuning the plans for next year? Well, I'm going to have a three-wheel party really hard today. We'll see what the Angover's like tomorrow. We've got some meetings on Tuesday to do with the director of football, so I'll see how they pan out. And then I'm going to take the wife and the kids for a few days on holiday because it's been the tough season for them,

putting up with us, putting up with me, moaning all the time. So we'll go away for a few days. We get back the weekend. And yet we'll get planning for next year after that. Sharon not sending you on a trip? No, I don't think so. No, that isn't the plan. But I'll see if I can twist David Ray, the CEO's arm,

to see even on our way on. And I know you'll be in from Jobby Mac and I've no doubt as well. You've probably spoken to him out there. But right now on 72 plus, he wants to know when you're coming back to see us because we miss you. I know as soon as possible. I've been, obviously, he's asked me a couple of times and it hasn't quite worked out on the days. But I'll definitely get back on because I love going on that show. Jobby's one of me really good mates.

I've seen him this morning in the hotel and I said let's hope this Wembley experience is better than the last one and it certainly was. I'm sure you we're so pleased for you. Congratulations. Thank you. Good mates. Yeah, we were roommates. We were roommates. We were roommates together at Stevenage.

And one of those players that this is, they were with so many up and down, your career. And there's a few that you just instantly clip with, really. We were at sort of similar ages, similar sort of, you know, kids. And, you know, and we just got on like a house on fire right from the start.

He was always, you know, going to go down this road. And again, knowing his journey, obviously speaking to him on a regular basis. He was really gutted with what happened at Stoke. You know, felt like he'd done a good job in terms of having to cut the budget, you know, trying to get a younger profile in and still trying to compete and felt there was a lot more there to really go and achieve. And that was a bit premature. So this was a huge decision for him. I haven't worked so hard to get to the championship and stepping down effectively,

but to a huge club at Bolton and getting up. And that expectation's been there from day one. Yes, they've got a good budget. They've got a great squad, that that brings different pressure you know, having to cope with that and just really relieved to see him. I actually bumped into him in the morning at breakfast in the hotel. It wasn't planned. We had a few breakfasts together when we were roommates, actually. And he was in the zone.

You just know, you know, again, I was there as a player and did a little bit of coaching. And I didn't want to spend too much time, you know, sort of chewing his ear off. So just wished him well. And, you know, again, that last visit to Wembley was really in his mind. He felt he got that a little bit wrong. even though it was a different tournament

in the Papa John's at the time that sort of sense of just go and enjoy the day and it unraveled really quick so he learned a lot from that and I'm just over the moon for him he's a top man and I think he'll go on to be a real top manager I haven't felt that losing my job as a manager yet

but even as a coach your confidence in your self-esteem's really hurt and your family's hurt as well by it and just listening to him to him talk he has learned from his mistakes or learnt from his experiences and you know the Wembley experienced before and this time he's learnt from that and it's kept him in good stead. I really like him. I'm glad I didn't know

you was a rummy of his jokes but he seems like a real solid guy and I was really chuffed for him and I was chuffed for Bolton because I remember the Bolton of old you know back in the day when Sam had him and they was a big club and I want to see a Bolton back up there so I was really chuff for everyone involved at Bolton particularly the owners who saved them. But yeah, I think they'll do well next year. Absolutely. Let's flip it and look at Stopport beating 4-1. Josh Dakers Cogley sent off late on for a hairpool. Here's the stopport manager, Dave Chaloner.

It's always tough to take. That was always going to be the case if you don't win the game, regardless of what it looks like. So you know that when you get to the playoffs and a playoff final, that also be your season's on the line with one game, and it wasn't to be for us today. So we have to dust ourselves down and look forward to next season. See the red car for Josh at the end. Was that frustration just setting in?

No, I don't think there's frustration at all. I think that's an absolute joke of a decision. And again, I get there'll be people in a VAR studio sat there slowed down and whatever else not. But that lad's played against this former club in probably one of the biggest games of his career and has been sent off for reaching out when he's not even looking at the player.

How can that be the case? It all must be an advocate of everyone growing their air. That's it. I say, forget the result. Massive congratulations to Bolton. That is a really, really poor decision. And it's been seen before. I think it's a joke.

I get it. Listen, I get it. If you turn around and I pull your air deliberately, I sort of get that. Coggs isn't even looking at the ball. Forget the, like I say, forget the score, forget the penalty. I'm more concerned than my duty is to the player.

That will not only be something that lives doing for the rest of his career, but it'll get him a three-game ban for next season, the start next season, which is scandalous. Do you think you're double done by VAR for the first goal as well? asking the question, do you think we were? I don't think, again, I don't think if the boot had been on the other foot that we would have got a free kick or a penalty

for that if Adama was running and gone down. I don't think we got a penalty for it yet because he scored, it got disallowed. So we all knew, and now Stephen mentioned it in his pre-match stuff around not wanting to speak about VAR and what that looked like. Has it played a part in the game? Of course it has. Has it played the decisive part? No, I'm not going to say that at all.

But their moments went against us. That can happen. And when you're putting officials in charge that have never, ever used the VAR before in one of the biggest games of the season for League 1, I'm not sure it's a sensible choice. So the VAL was Peter Banks, who is a regular on VAR in the Premier League, Champions League, and for international fixtures. On field referee, Josh Smith, has done a handful of Premier.

League games with VAR, but none for the past 18 months or so. Should the Football League be using referees of the more recent record of using VAR, Joby, there's a lot of talk about the fact that VR's even involved in the playoff finals, but then I look back at the moment during Coventry Luton where Joe Taylor scores and it's a handball and there's issues there. Like, it has been okay and I'm not a fan of it, but, you know, it's done its job. Yeah, listen, overall, do I want to see VAR used across the EFL? No, it's a much better experience covering games, watching games,

and the emotional feeling you get from football without it. So I wouldn't want it in for the finals. I do think it's a different conversation. I know there might be, you know, some people out there going, well, hang on a minute, why don't you want it in the regular season? I just feel at Wembley, you know, having been there as a player, you know, covering the games now, there is so much at stake. And I'm with you, we've been there when there's been these huge calls,

things that you don't see in real time. It's interesting. I was on with Michael Scabala and he isn't a fan of it. He's kind of a lonely opinion. If you don't have it in the league, you shouldn't really then just bring it into a final. Would you want to be on the end of a wrong decision? I thought the goal was rightly ruled out.

The first one is a accidental collision, but the only way Sidibe gets in there is because of the contact. And obviously... Yeah, I don't know. Well, again, look, we can... You can't just run into someone, trip them up, and then you're through on goal and the lad who's supposed to be defending Johnston at the time.

I mean, what can he do about it? The only reason Siddibah gets a run on goal is because he's tripped the defender, right? Yeah, okay. We don't have a VRR, are there, Joe? We're not going to have a fight for the other. No, but what I will say is the frustration would be probably in the regular season,

that goal does stand because the referee hasn't seen that the contact is accidental. or maybe thinks it's just a natural coming together. So I absolutely get Dave Challenger's point of view on that. But for me, personally, I just think for the finals, we've got the technology, you're at Wembley Stadium. Again, as long as they're light touch and it's major decisions, then I think we have to have them.

I completely agree with that, Joe, because, you know, as a player and as a manager now, if I lost the final on a decision that was so contentious, and I didn't have V.O. when I could have had it, I'd be devastated. So I know, and I love Dave Chandra, what he's done over the years. I really like him as a gentleman as well. But I think on reflection, he'll probably think, you know, it hasn't gone for me this time probably, but it's so important that VAR is in for a final because you'd hate to go out on a decision of a referee. He's had a spit second to make a decision, and it's the wrong decision.

It would be devastating. Notts County are back in League one after 11 years. years away after dismantling Salford City 3-0. Here's head coach Martin Patterson. I thought we were excellent. We respected the game, respected the opponents, no end. I think they had one little scare early second half.

My memory is a little bit blurred with the occasion, but we played the game, not the occasion. And I thought we were excellent and I thought, you know, against a team that have put a lot of pieces on the board in terms of attacking threats and spent a lot of money to bring them in

even in January. and I just thought we were in a good control of the game. But I think when we missed out on the top three, it hurt me because I thought if we'd have had people fit, I thought we could have done it, but could have, doesn't exist in football. So the playoff campaign, I made sure that I worked these players structurally and defensively. And off the back of that, off the back of the framework, the freedom and the quality has shone.

And I was delighted with the players. There you go. There was the Notta County head coach. Martin Patterson. Woody, you were there, sweating at Wemble. Sweating. Yeah. Tell us, what did you make of it as a contest?

Well, the big players turned up for Notts County. Jodie Jones was excellent. I mean, early doors, he was running at them. He was doing some real Jody Jones stuff. And then they dropped off. And then that was, they was in a world of pain then when they dropped off when they was fearing him, because then he was running the show. jatter

everyone said he hasn't scored in five he's having a little bit of a lull he hasn't scored against Salford he got put through finished it calmly and defensively they were solid defensively they give up nothing

and I heard Carl's interview after he was pretty honest but I felt it was a bit harsh on himself a little bit as well on his team because I thought they were faultless Knox County they give up nothing so you know

the real big players for Knox County turned up on the day and they delivered. And it was a really good performance, particularly for a Wembley final because they normally are tight affairs, but they really did play some good stuff. Joby, to non-league and back,

what a journey for Knott's County. Yeah, and huge football club, isn't it? With a fantastic fan base, again, we saw that at Wembley. But I just want to dive back into Jodie Dones, who was very much a match-winning performance. All the injuries he's had, the perseverance having to come back,

you know, from those disappointments. and, you know, maybe at parts earlier in the season, not quite at the level we know he can get to, but, you know, what a brilliant performance. I mean, the assist for Chattah was sensational and then obviously wants to go and really make that input towards the end of the game and gets himself on the score sheet. So, again, that is what I'm talking about,

about players just grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck and going, I'm the one who's going to make an impact. Everyone now will talk about that final as the one that Jody Jones stood up and almost sort of dragged them over the line when it really, really matters. He's a close. He's a level above, clearly, you know, but he's had his injury worries. And the other one is Jatana.

Just really want to touch on it. We've done a bit of McBurney, you know, spoke a bit of Michael Cheat. Even when those players are not scoring, they give the opposition so much of a problem. Those defenders have to be worrying about it. It creates space for other players and just a real physical threat. And like you say, when it really matters, sticks a ball in the back of the net. So, firely deserved for Knox County and, you know, well done, might. I've got to just tell you a little story about Jody.

He terrorised us this year and I had a bit of ban on the pitch. I almost said to him, can't you have a day off? You're terrorising us. In the midst of that game at the end, you know, all the celebrations, he'd run right over to me. He said, I can't wait to play against your team again next year and terrorise you again. I mean, I've got sleepless nights about this boy and he's such a good player, but, you know, a real quality performance by him.

and I was glad for him because he has had his fair share of injuries and he stepped up yesterday and he was excellent. Absolutely. On the flip side, let's hear from the Salford Head coach Carl Robinson. Cutted. I feel that we've let people down today. I don't think we've let people down for the last 10 months, whatever it was.

I think we've been nothing short of magnificent. And today we just had too many that didn't turn up and certain aspects. people didn't, you can use so many excuses. We were beaten by the better team. And that's as honest as it could be. I'm absolutely on the floor. My players are on the floor.

We know we've underachieved on the day, but we've overachieved what the course of the season. But unfortunately, we're in football moments matter. And on this big moment today, we just weren't here. Congratulations to not counting. I apologize to all soft with fans. I really do for the bottom of my heart. And the club will be better, better, stronger than ever next year.

Right now, you have to lead this. It's hurt. And, do what? I feel sick, honestly. You can see some more players walking past. It's hurt because I want to take care for them. And I much have really associated themselves over the fan. They give everything to see her.

And we just let ourselves down at the most horrific moment on the biggest stage of all. It was a star-studded line up in the crowd, wasn't it? Joby yesterday. Seeing the class of 92, Jill Scott involved there as well. But they come up short. Where did it go wrong? Well, I think they'll be asking that question, and they have done over the last few years, just can't quite get over this final hurdle, can they, and get promoted from League 2,

having had such a good run to that point. One thing you do learn from these, though, he'll be looking around that dressing room. You know, I did it as a senior player and later went on to be captain, but who are the ones that are going to use that to drive you on? Who's got that real look in their eye? Of course, disappointment, but right, I'm going to put that right next season. And then on the flip side, there will be some that think, maybe it's not to be

or maybe my future lies elsewhere. You learn a lot about people in these disappointments and there's no reason why once they figure that out, they can't go and get the job done next season because they were so close. Did you say hello to any of the class of 92? No, I didn't.

Or did any of the class of 92 come and say hello to you? I didn't think they know, I am, to be honest. To be fair. I need to get some tips, mate. Well, do you know what? When we paid up there, in fairness to Paul Scholes, He was really complimentary of myself and my team, so, you know, joking society was excellent. I want to touch on that, though, because it must be like a bit of a pressure cauldron for the management team, you know, the players, you know, and I know they know that the class of 92 are the owners and all of that.

But when you get to a big game like that or Wembley where those guys have shone, it must have some effect on you as a group. You have a one to really impress them, really have your. moment, it can't not be a bit of pressure for them, a little bit of added pressure. And I just feel that that might have just, you know, spooked one or two of them on the day. It might have just been that too much for them. But, you know, they will come back again next year. They will look at where it's gone wrong. And one thing I do think is probably hurt them a little bit, which hasn't been mentioned,

is the FA Cup run. You know, they went and played Man City, got to the fourth round, and it does take your focus off the league and they lost, missed out by a few points, and they might look back at that and think we had a great day and we got to Man City, but that might have cost us because it certainly cost me a couple years ago

when we got to Newcastle. It takes your focus off as a football club. Yeah, I think it shows, doesn't it? The different, and this is why the EFL is brilliant, that we cover it, we love it, you know, we've been involved in it, but when you look at some of the promotions across the divisions, and maybe that lack of expectation,

you know, and I mean this respectfully about Hull, None of us saw them being where they were this season and being a club that went and got promoted. You, what you're up against Woody in your league? Absolutely. I don't think that level of expectation. It would be from inside. I know that you have your ambitions and your targets inside,

but that external expectation, that pressure when you are, you know, salford and that demand for them to go up, you know, and that does have a negative impact at times on the players, and that's what they've got to be looking at. Can we get this group that can deal with that? It's a different sort of beast you're working with when you're at Salford and you've got all that pressure on you. And again, when you're looking at attracting that next level of player, they are factors because they're going to have to pick of all the other teams in that league or maybe some from the league above, you know, and it might be that that class of 92 thing gets them over the line because they want to be part of this story.

But then they're up against some big clubs with other, you know, good facilities. So I just think there's stuff behind the scenes that still needs bringing up. But there's no doubt, you know, with the ambition of everyone there, they're. will get there. What is everyone up to this summer? Job's pumping up, the Lilo, maybe an inflatable. Yeah, I'm going to say one of my boys, but he's now 13. I cannot believe I've got a teenager in housing.

Yeah, his birthday was Sunday, so we had the pleasure of coming to Wembley. And then yesterday, we had a bunch of 13-year-olds with the old water pistols and the water bombs and the paddling pools. It was nice, actually. We had a nice day. So I'm ahead of you on that. I'm already already got it out, mate. Do you still whip the old paddling pool out for Freddie?

Do you know what? I'm actually going up to see Freddy. I'm sitting for a little while. And, yeah, he might want me to get the paddling pole back out for him. I know one thing he's going to take me the golf. They've got a swimming pool now, eyes. They've got a swimming pool there. I was trying to pretend he hasn't there.

Got that Newcastle, that six-year Newcastle, that's done it well. No, that's definitely not me wasting on a pole. I don't even have got a hot tub but yeah I'm going to go up to see Fred I'm literally going up there tomorrow we're going to have a cut of rounds of golf and a bit of time where we've we haven't really been sort of getting

together as much just lately because we've been so busy of our own schedules and it's really sort of been tricky but yeah I'm looking forward to having a bit of time of him and these litlands as well with grandchildren and what's the plan for you guys preseason you're going anywhere going anywhere local going abroad yeah we go we go

to Portugal we've been the last three years with Bromley We go to Panina and it works brilliantly for us. It's a real oldy, worldly hotel. They look after us brilliantly. And the training pitch is fabulous, which we have to ourselves. It's all on site. And we can really get some good work done there.

So it's a really good trip for us and we get some really good work. And I think it's really served as well the last couple of years. Stinks of a pre-season trip for 72 plus that, mate, didn't it? If we can just find ourselves a little... I would love you two to come out of there. Let me tell you, I would love it. As long as we end doing the running, it's all good. Oh, actually, no chance.

We'd definitely have the star football match that the lads love. And let me tell you, the focal point is me in this. They just wait for me to slip over on one moment, and they're all up out of their seats. So that'll be the focal point again. The star football match they'll be waiting for. Job's, I'm down if you are. A hundred percent.

Again, just leave the running. I've got enough preseason running in my time, Woody. Yeah. You drop me out of that. Yeah, no bleak tests or laps for me, please, mate. They're a thing at a pass for us, mate. Don't worry about that. Happy days.

Jobes, it also is the end of the season when it comes to fantasy. Congratulations to Superdons, 1988 for winning our fantasy league. 3,624 points. And that is it for 72 plus this season. Thank you, Zever. To all of our incredible co-host, Joby, because they bring so much knowledge. expertise, they bring the love, they bring the sweets, they bring the

laughs, it's what we need and we're so lucky to have such a great squad. Yeah, man, and Jen, thanks for all the listeners as well, but it's such an enjoyable pod to do. I think hopefully what comes across is the relationships, I think to have an Andy Woodman sat in the studio with us,

you know, we've had Dean Holder, I mean, that just goes for all the managers, current players, director of footballs, you know, just across all parts of the game to really try help give that insight. We've got our opinions, obviously. Although you didn't actually answer, you got a question bounced back at you in that last interview by Chandler and you didn't answer it, did you? He didn't give you a chance. But like, we love getting into it, but it's only as good as the people we get on the show and we've had such, such good people. So yeah, roll on next season

already. Come on. Absolutely. And thank you to the guys who put this, this pod together. Nathan, Jack, Matt, all the producers we've had who have dropped in and done. bits on the live shows as well. Thank you as ever to you for listening. Of course it doesn't stop over the summer. Remember you can get all the latest when it comes to your EFL club on the BBC Sounds app. Just search your club's name

and make sure to hit subscribe so you get notified whenever a new interview or new podcast becomes available. We will be back next season. We will catch you then. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis

from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the money. Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is? I'm Richard! You want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup.

It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app. 30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the US government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khal. and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver, but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice, 30 years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention? For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.